🏀 KuBuckets Archive

@ParisHawk I'm not sure if his signing means he or his handlers are OK with him leaving. More likely, they just realize they have very little leverage. What were his options really? He could, as you say, put off signing, but for how long and to what cost? Even if he'd successfully made it to the start of the season, LeBron would probably resent him and quite possibly other teammates (even if they are just blindly following LBJ), it's quite possible the Cavs wouldn't even play him for fear of injury nullifying the deal, and if he did play how many passes could he expect to come his way?

So his other option would be to...go play in Europe or somewhere else for a year? I'm operating under the assumption that he would re-enter the draft the following year. I could be wrong on that, but I'm pretty sure that's how it would work if he didn't sign at all. And even if he did that, there's no assurances he'd be picked by a team he liked. He could end up back in Minnesota. Or some other nowhere destination.

Best to just start the clock on his 3 or 4 year tenure with the Wolves and become a free agent afterwards.

@JayHawkFanToo Yeah adding Mirotic was the key. And I think a lot of it depends on how you view Gibson. Just a defensive specialist, or someone you can count on for a modicum of offensive production?

The other person I've heard McDermott compared to is a better version of Kyle Korver. So take that for whatever it's worth.

@Crimsonorblue22 Now that offer might trump Cleveland's. Yesterday espn reported the offer was simply Gibson & Jimmy Butler. But swapping McDermott & Mirotic into the deal for Butler is intriguing. Minnesota is playing this perfectly. If I'm them I wait and see what the next one-upping might net them. Reminds me of an article I saw on the onion joking that the Cavs would deal Wiggins and LeBron James to get Love.

Thanks for the link!

@JayHawkFanToo Well as I've said before, Cleveland will make sure they can be the highest bidder in two years, or at least match. Otherwise, why go back to Cleveland at all? He could have gotten Miami to give him a max contract for two years if all he wanted to do was bail when the cap goes up. Going to Cleveland and walking out on them again would be a horrible PR move, especially when he can command a max contract from other teams. I 100% agree the reason he signed was so that he could get a larger contract in two years, but there's no way I buy that he's already planning on going elsewhere.

As for the Bulls involvement, it's definitely a lesser offer. But why make that offer at all then? I think it's just to try and induce more of a sense of urgency from Cleveland, perhaps making them sweeten the deal just to get it done. That's really the only rationale I can think of, to try and create a frenzy and give Minnesota at least a bit more leverage, otherwise I don't understand it.

@Crimsonorblue22 That's got to be bogus. A ploy by the Bulls to drive the price up on Love, thus making Cleveland give up more for him than they'd like. I mean...their offer is so meager - Taj Gibson & Jimmy Butler?

He is being dealt away for 1-yrs service of Love (since he becomes a free agent next year).

@drgnslayr I would say this isn't entirely true. Any team trading for Love is only doing so with certain assurances that he will sign an extension. Because you're right, the asking price is outrageous for a one-year rental.

I'm not a cap expert so I'm not sure exactly how it works, but the reason it makes sense to trade for him as opposed to just saying with a wink & a nod "hey, you really want to play with LeBron? We'll sign you when you become a free agent" is because the team that has him will be able to sign him for more money or for less of a cap hit than someone acquiring him in free agency. At least, that is my understanding, but again I'm not 100% sure how it works.

@HighEliteMajor Well first I'd just like to qualify my statement by saying I think it's tough to say without seeing Oubre at all and without seeing significant play from Greene.

So much of this is just based on what I've read, and then making predictions based on that. I've read where Oubre was so good at I believe it was the Jordan camp that one writer had him in the conversation for the #1 pick in next year's NBA draft. I read where in some all-star or camp game recently he shut down Emanuel Mudiay, also in the running for the #1 overall pick. If he's that good defensively, then I think he will be significantly better than Greene. I can't see Greene making the leap to be a shut down defender. I'd be happy if he was more or less adequate. We know Self covets defense, and especially after last year's struggles if Oubre is that much better on defense then I expect him to come away with most of the minutes.

As for CF vs. Mason...I think whoever wins the starting job has a chance to be greatly improved. My gut feeling has me leaning a bit towards Mason getting the job, but nothing would surprise me there.

I'm going to agree with others and say Selden.

However, I don't know what people's expectations are from Oubre, but I would bet there's not much of a drop off from what we saw from Wiggins last year. Considering Wiggins came in as the #1 ranked recruit and was being dubbed the best high school player since LeBron, if Oubre plays close to that level I'd consider that pretty huge. I don't think he'll average as many points because I think the perimeter scoring will be more spread out with a healthy and more experienced Wayne Selden, and with what I expect to be improved PG play, but don't let the numbers fool you.

@justanotherfan Another really good analysis.

I think a more accurate question here is what is the probability Wiggins reaches his ceiling? Or put another way, how close can he get to his ceiling? Because to me, his ceiling is more or less set. It's not on a sliding scale. I think his ceiling is that of either a Kobe Bryant, or as you said a Scottie Pippen. The height of one's ceiling is largely defined by one's physical gifts, athleticism, & physique. Because for the most part those are the things that can't be taught or learned. Almost everyone can be taught the mechanics of a good jump shot, or improve their basketball IQ. Andrew has the physical tools that extend his ceiling about as high as anyone short of LeBron. I don't think that's really in question. Speed, length, quickness, vertical, etc. He has it all. If you were constructing an ideal NBA 2-guard, physically he'd look an awful lot like Wiggins.

I think Wiggins' ceiling is probably closer to Pippen than Kobe because of something else that I think defines the height of the ceiling, and that is a killer instinct (for lack of a better term). That was one of the few questions about him at KU, and one of the bigger questions regarding him going into the draft. Does he have that killer instinct, that alpha mentality? I don't know that he does, and I don't know that I've ever seen someone develop that at the NBA level. He's competitive, which is part of it, but few players have that utter loathing and hatred towards their opponents like Jordan, Bird, & Kobe did.

So again, the real question to me is how high can he get to his ceiling? Can he improve upon the things that would elevate him from perhaps someone of Paul George's stature (great comparison by the way), to that of a Pippen or even a Kobe? The two areas that he needs to improve upon the most to approach his ceiling are his ball handling and jump shooting.

Who knows what the best path is for Wiggins to maximize his talents. I've been of the belief that playing in Cleveland would be better because he wouldn't have the pressure of having to be "the man". But there is no one true path to greatness. Look at Kobe, drafted out of high school and wasn't a starter until his 3rd year. Averaged only 15 mpg his rookie year. Or look at Jordan and how many years he had to struggle carrying the Bulls to mediocre team success before finally breaking through in '91. Look at Durant's rookie year in Seattle when he shot 43% from the field and 28.8% from 3.

There's no one true path to greatness. Here's to hoping Wiggins can find his, wherever it may be.

The following excerpt is from a Grantland article where they graded NBA teams in the offseason (btw, if you don't already you should really spend some time on Grantland. The writing is better, more in-depth, and often times very humorous):

"One of the funny parts about spending way too much time on the Internet is that sometimes you initially agree with a criticism, but then everybody starts talking about it and tweeting about it, one-upping each other with hotter takes, and eventually the opinions get taken so far that you can’t help but double back and start defending what you were initially criticizing.That’s what happened with Daryl Morey this week.

It went like this:

• “Wow, the Rockets really looked like idiots in the end this summer.” (Yep.)
• “Morey isn’t as invincible as everyone says he is.” (100 percent.)
• “What happened this summer was a colossal mistake.” (Umm …)
• “Morey’s just a product of incestuous media putting him on a pedestal. He’s never been that great” (OK.)
• “Seven years in Houston, and Morey’s made the second round once. Why doesn’t anyone write an article about THAT?” [Backing away slowly]
• “FINALLY, the myth of Morey is being exposed.” (Wait, what?)
• “Will the Rockets even make the playoffs this year?” (WHAT?)"

I feel this is what has happened to me with the Wiggins trade. Here I am defending the legitimacy of it to DoubleDD, when the fact is I don't want it to happen, and I'm not even sure it should happen.

All due respect to @HighEliteMajor, but to me it's not a "no-brainer", and there is plenty of room for debate. The first thing that I'd say to ANYONE quoting stats is - did you watch him play? If you didn't, spare me the fantasy basketball line. After that I'd ask anyone that thinks it is a no-brainer if they know how this team looks. Do they know how LeBron & Irving are going to co-exist, how they're going to space the floor. Do they know the team's strengths & weaknesses. No? And because we don't know how this team will look, do we know how Kevin Love will fit in with it? Is he a sure thing with this team? Do we see a stat drop like we saw with Bosh when he left the Raptors for the Heat? Can three guys such as LBJ, Irving, & Love, who all demand the ball and are volume type scorers, play together effectively?

I get that it's the known commodity vs potential debate (I've been essentially extolling the virtues of trading for the known commodity with my most recent post to DoubleDD), so it may seem like I'm flip-flopping, or arguing to argue, or playing devil's advocate to everyone on the site. But my position has been wait and see. Maybe out of my fear of Wiggins landing in Minnesota. I know sentimentally, I want Wiggins to stay in Cleveland because I think it will be best for his development. Objectively, I think at the end of the day you probably make this trade, but still there's no harm in waiting other than maybe Wiggins gets hurt and you can't do the deal. I just think it's too quick to assume what's best for a group of players we've never seen play together.

There probably isn't a team in the league that wouldn't make that trade.

@DoubleDD Well, we know there's one team - Cleveland.

My man, look I don't want to be disrespectful, but you keep throwing out these outrageous comparisons. Jordan, Bird, Magic, Duncan. Could Wiggins be that great? It's possible, but the odds are against it. What you're talking about when you make those comparisons is keeping Wiggins on the statistical improbability that he turns out to be one of the 10 best players of all time. That's just an outrageous reason to keep Wiggins, because he might be THAT good. Because he might win 6 or 7 championships (which only a handful of players have done, Jordan & Pippen have 6, Robert Horry, Russell and some of his Celtics teammates have that many...that's it I believe).

What if I told you that by trading Wiggins for Love that it gave you - as the Cleveland GM - a 25% chance at winning a championship sometime in the next 3 years. Now I tell you that by holding onto Wiggins that chance reduces down to say 10%, but you have a .01% chance that holding onto Wiggins nets you 6 or 7 championships? Those are essentially the odds you are talking about when you make statements like that. You're saying "what if he goes on to win 6 or 7 championships"...you know, like 1/1,000 of the players in league history have done.

And really, when you get down to it, that's what trading potential for proven talent is about - weighing the odds. Anthony Bennett was last year's #1 pick, and probably still has a lot of potential. But would Minnesota consider a deal centered around him? No, because the odds are he isn't going to progress to an all-star level. Now a player like Andrew Wiggins...there's a greater chance of him developing. But there's still a chance that he never lives up to that billing. Shall we go through the history of top 3 picks and find out how many are busts, or at least how many were never "the future of the franchise" that drafted them? And I say top 3 picks, because without the injury to Embiid, Wiggins goes #3. So you can throw out as many hypothetical scenarios - "Really so what if the Cavs trade Wiggins for Love, and the Cavs do indeed win that one championship? Yet Wiggins goes on to win 6 or even 7 championships? Still think that was a good trade?" - like that one, but for every scenario like that, there's one that says "Really what if the Cavs trade Wiggins for Love, and the Cavs do end the city's 50 year championship drought and win one title, and Wiggins has a solid, but unspectacular career? Still think that is a good trade Minnesota?"

I think the funny thing to me is that I feel I have a very reasonable approach to the situation - to see how this team looks on the court before making a decision. If it looks like Wiggins will mesh well, then you keep him. If it looks like the one thing holding you back is a jump shooting, glass-vaccing power forward, then you make the trade for Love. What I don't get is you're not even there. You're not even willing to look at it. You're just anointing Wiggins the future of the franchise and speculating that he wins 6 or 7 rings before seeing him in so much as 1 regular season game. That to me is what's mind-boggling.

Your last statement (with spelling corrections) is the most accurate thing you've said: "You have no idea what Wiggins can be. No idea." You're 100% right. Could be he's a HOFer. Could be he's just a solid rotation guy. We have no idea. Where we seem to be world's apart are is the odds. The odds of Wiggins being a future of the franchise type player. It's possible. I hope he has that kind of career. But even for the kids with the most promise out of high school and college, the odds are against it.

@justanotherfan Good analysis. I've posted much of the same regarding what Minnesota has to get back, Cleveland needing to pull out all the stops for championships, etc.

I think one thing I might disagree with is the idea that keeping Wiggins and just staying the course equates to "giving away two of the remaining elite Lebron seasons." We don't know how this team looks. With LeBron, with Wiggins, with Love. I think most would agree, if looking at the situation objectively, that Love is indeed a better player than Wiggins right now. However, championship teams are not always the best collection of individual players. Often times all-star teams, or "dream" teams, fail. Not because they aren't talented enough, but because that talent has to mesh to produce the best team. Who knows what the best mesh is for this Cavalier team? We can only project how things will fit. A lot of media people are projecting Love to complement LeBron's game nicely, because he's a shooter who can space the floor, because he rebounds, and because he is the Brady Morningstar of outlet passes apparently (sorry, but every time I read some "expert" gushing about Love's outlet passes it makes me think of people extolling the virtues of BStar's post entry passes).

What few people are projecting is how well Wiggins might complement LeBron. By keeping Wiggins, LeBron may finally be able to let someone else guard the other team's best perimeter player. By all accounts, Wiggins should step onto the floor day 1 and be a plus defender. I don't think this can be undervalued. Letting him catch his breath on the defensive end would definitely be one way to stave off aging decline, whereas conversely if he has to go balls out on the defensive end every game because he has a bunch of stiffs out there it will definitely accelerate the aging process.

I also think that bringing in Love suddenly limits a bit of LeBron's flexibility. You can't play small with LBJ at the 4 anymore, as Love is essentially a stretch 4. One of the things that made Miami so successful was their small-ball line-ups that other teams couldn't match or exploit. Plug in Love, and that option goes away.

Anyway, as I've said before, they should let this play out for a bit. Here's a link to a Grantland article that I've mentioned before that talks about some of what I've been saying here:

Grantland article ↗

But if after evaluating the team it is determined that they have a better chance, a legitimate chance, of winning a championship with Love, then you make the move everyday. If it results in even one championship and Wiggins goes on to have a successful career, it was still worth it.

P.S. Thanks to @JayHawkFanToo - link successfully posted! Much appreciated!

@JayHawkFanToo Xavier back to the Lakers on a one year minimum contract, per ESPN's "league sources".

Good job btw, previously running down all the locations of the former 'hawks.

@JayHawkFanToo Thanks for the link. Good read.

Yeah I've been saying for quite awhile (see six days ago on this very thread in a response to HEM) that Love hasn't made the playoffs and that he is a stat stuffer, so you don't have to sell me on those points.

As I said on another thread, I think the best course of action is to let this play out a bit. See how LeBron AND Wiggins mesh with the team. If after 30 games or so it is apparent that the one thing missing is a guy like Love, then you make the trade. It's all about winning that elusive championship, so if that's what needs to be done...so be it. But at least take the time to find out what you have with this team before shaking it up again.

@EdwordL These are good questions that I don't have the answers to. I'm not sure how long Cleveland would retain Wiggins' rights should he go overseas, and if Wiggins contract with Adidas is contingent on him playing in the states.

It would also be pretty unprecedented for a North American player to bypass the NBA as a rookie for a gig overseas. Not sure how viable that really is, but it would be interesting if nothing else.

@DoubleDD I still think the Rodman comparison is kind of weird. You say you don't trade the future of your franchise for a Love kind of player. Well...you don't trade the future of your franchise for a Rodman kind of player either! It's true they are different kinds of players. Rodman is more of a role player, whereas Love is more of a player to build around. Not a franchise player, but he could easily fit in as the third piece in any big 3.

You say nobody is jumping or begging for him. This is true in that there are few teams willing to trade for him. But there are reasons for this, not because teams don't think Love is a very good player. A big reason is because he is in the final year of his contract. You don't trade anybody of value for a rental, except under two conditions: first if that player puts you over the top to be in line for a championship. Few teams are in this position, and even fewer would remain in this position after trading away the assets necessary to acquire Love.

The second condition in which you trade for a player in his walk year is if you have assurances that player will re-sign with your team, thus making him not a rental player and more a long-term piece. So in this situation, one in which you are going to sign Love long term, you have to have cap space. Few teams have that kind of cap space and are in a competitive situation that Love would consent to signing long-term.

So we see because of these conditions, the trade market is predictably limited for Love. However, if he should become a free agent next year we will see teams lining up to sign him. I predict it could be along the lines that we saw teams making pitches and moves to land Carmelo. Maybe even more so, because in Carmelo's situation there was always the Knicks looming who could offer him the most money. Even with Minnesota in that same position, teams know Love isn't going back there, so the market is more open for his services. I also think perhaps a comparison to Melo is more apt, in that both are very good players that don't play defense.

I do agree that everything being done is to pander to LeBron. Mike Miller, James Jones, maybe Ray Allen. Granted these are all shooters, which Cleveland needed, so it's not as if they're just bringing in a bunch of his worthless buddies. But yeah, if LeBron wants Love, the Cavs would move whatever pieces he tells them to in order to do so. It's pretty sickening seeing a player with that much organizational control.

And while part of me wishes he could get out of Cleveland, a big part of me hopes he stays. The situation is perfect for him in Cleveland. He doesn't have to be "the man", he doesn't have to carry this team. With other scorers around him, he can as @drgnslayr says let his offense come to him at an organic speed. He can do the things that come naturally to him in Cleveland - play defense and get out in transition, while working on the parts of his game like his outside shot and ball handling. Should he go to a talent-bereft wasteland like Minnesota, that team will lean on him and he'll have to force his offensive game. In that situation, we might never see him maximize his talents.

@JayHawkFanToo I saw that too. On their website their 5-on-5 article all 5 said they should make the trade. The Grantland article had perhaps the best arguments I've seen for keeping him. The article was by the Grantland staff, and they were split about 50-50 on making the trade.

@DoubleDD I'm not sure I understand the rationale of saying if the Cavs don't select Wiggins then James re-signs with the Heat. Are you saying that since they drafted Wiggins that James knew he'd be able to force Cleveland to trade him for Love? In that scenario, I see it equally as likely that had Cleveland selected Parker he would have done the same.

Also not quite sure why Dennis Rodman became the standard in the "Love or this guy" scenario, seeing how Rodman has been out of the league for over a decade. I mean, maybe LeBron would take Rodman over Love. But that's not the choice, it's Wiggins or Love, and I think comparing Rodman to Wiggins simply because they both play defense is kind of an ill-suited comparison. Because the question here isn't would you take a rebounder & interior defender (Rodman) or a rebounder & scorer (Love), it's whether you would take an unproven perimeter commodity (Wiggins) or a proven interior commodity (Love).

@DoubleDD Something to think about here is that Wiggins was never "their guy" in Cleveland. They were set to draft Embiid before injury. The front office & owner were at odds over whether to take Wiggins or Jabari Parker. There was no consensus. Wiggins was the consolation pick. I suspect it's much easier for them to throw him to the Wolves (so to speak) than if they had a healthy Embiid. So maybe it is LeBron pulling the strings, but let's not assume that he had to do some massive power play to get them to part with Wiggins. Could be they were just never that sold on him.

I had posted previously on how I really hope this deal doesn't get done. It sucks for Wiggins to be faced with potentially going to Minnesota (although if the draft lottery were fair he probably would have landed in such a dismal franchise destination). I suspect that's why you are as upset about the situation, as am I. We wouldn't care as much about Wiggins being traded if it was to a first class organization that, while possibly rebuilding, we were confident would get the ship righted. But Minnesota? Ugh!

Initially I was of the opinion, looking at the situation objectively and attempting to see the point of view of the Cavs' management, that I would indeed reluctantly trade Wiggins for Love. Love is an all-star. An olympian. And his stats are eye-popping. As a general rule, if you have an opportunity to acquire an all-star caliber player, in any sport, you part with prospects. Because they are just that - prospects. They are unproven. You are trading an unproven commodity for a proven one, and at the end of the day the proven commodity is far more valuable...today. Maybe not in 5 years. Maybe not even next year. But today, for a team that is suddenly a serious player in the East, the proven commodity is worth considerably more.

You also have to factor in that the city of Cleveland hasn't won a championship in over 50 years. To be the team, or the guy, that ends that drought...you pull out all the stops.

However, after thinking on this a bit more, even objectively I don't think you trade Wiggins for Love. Several reasons, the first being that while Love is a proven commodity, it is not proven that he is a winner. I said this before as well, but to be a superstar you have to elevate your team to some modicum of success. Love hasn't even been able to lead the Timberwolves into the playoffs.

The second reason I'd be against this trade is not even that I'm against it but more that I'm against it NOW. We haven't seen this team on the court yet. Why would anyone in the Cavs organization be so quick to determine that Love is a better fit than Wiggins without even seeing Wiggins OR LeBron play with this group? There's a good piece by the Grantland staff available on espn.com where they talk about how Wiggins & LeBron might play together, and it's pretty enticing to imagine! But instead everyone seems to be lubing themselves over the prospect of seeing Kevin Love's outlet passes (Oooooohh! Exciting!).

Another reason to not cave now is that Cleveland has most of the leverage. Why give that away? The Timberwolves are faced with trading Love or getting nothing for him in return. As long as Golden State continues to refuse Klay Thompson in any package for Love, Cleveland is in the driver's seat even without Wiggins. A measly 4 days had passed since they took their stance of not trading Wiggins. They could have played hardball and seen if Minnesota would cave and take a lesser package of players & picks. Now having tipped their hand, it will be almost impossible to get Flip Saunders to come off a demand for Wiggins.

Unfortunately, I fully expect the Cavs management to trade Wiggins to Minnesota. It's what they do. They are constantly messing things up, yet somehow are rewarded for it. They ineptly surround LeBron with the most pathetic supporting cast for years, prompting him to leave. Gilbert childishly pens an insulting letter assaulting LeBron's character, yet they re-sign him after 4 years away. They somehow win the draft lottery 3 out of 4 years, they squander one on Anthony Bennett and now seem hell bent on trading another away. As much as I don't want to see Wiggins in Minnesota, a part of me wants him to leave just to get away from the Cavs. That same part of me wants all of this to blow up in Dan Gilbert's face and that they win no championships, and when LeBron is gone we all laugh at them and say "that's why you're Cleveland! That's why you have no championships!"

If LeBron is pulling all these strings, it's puzzling. I'd like to give him more credit to see the big picture. Who knows, maybe he saw his buddy Dwyane Wade's body fail him at age 31 and is now paranoid that the same fate awaits him, so he's in "win now" mode at all costs. Maybe he is threatened by Wiggins for some odd reason. Maybe the "maple Jordan" thing made him insecure, and he thought he should have gone with "maple LeBron". I've given up trying to understand him. But while I actually found myself quietly pulling for him when I heard of his return to Cleveland, if he pushes Wiggins out the door I'll be loudly pulling for anyone who plays against him.

@JayHawkFanToo Multiple sources now reporting the Cavs willing to trade Wiggins to get Love.

Bummer!!!

Totally don't care either way. Whatever you want to do. I don't ever access any old posts, and it wouldn't hurt my feelings at all if I lost my reputation stars. LOL. Come on, some of you know that's what you're worried about. Bahaha

Same here. I got a notification that Jaybate had mentioned me in his reply on that thread, but my post continues to be the last one shown.

@truehawk93 Thinking Cliff may be a "3 yr project, like TRob" is perhaps more wishful thinking than objective analysis.

Let's just start with their high school rankings. Cliff #3, TRob early 30s. No rankings aren't definitive, but they are a useful guide. The difference between their rankings tells me Cliff is more out-of-the-box ready than TRob was. We saw in TRob's game he wasn't ready his first year, and still had jitters his sophomore year. He played too fast. Fouled too much. Could be we see the same from Alexander, but the rankings tell me he'll have an easier job staying on the court.

Secondly, TRob developed exponentially once he became a starter. He saw only scraps of minutes his freshman year as the 4th big behind Cole & the Morris Twins, then served as the primary back-up his sophomore year but wasn't playing starter level minutes. Playing time speeds up development. By all accounts, Alexander is projected to be the starter from day 1. He should learn and develop faster.

However, there is reason to think we could meet in the middle, and possibly have hope for two years of Alexander. First, he doesn't seem to have great moves or the face-up jumper. Maybe he has them and just hasn't shown them (his highlight tapes are 95% dunks & blocks), or maybe he develops them quickly, but if not a second year might be in order. Also, while the 3 future pros playing in front of TRob certainly kept him off the court for a time, they were also there to bang against him everyday in practice. Going against tough competition in practice can speed development too (although not as much as game time minutes, in my opinion). Cliff doesn't exactly have the same peers that TRob did (although there are certainly things he can take from Ellis's game, and perhaps Jamari's as well).

A wild card in all this may be the NBA potentially raising the draft age. If done soon, that could keep him in Lawrence a second year whether he wants to or not. It could increase his chances of going after that second year, as players from the class of '15 (which is allegedly "loaded", although it seems we hear that every couple of years) would not be eligible, therefore increasing his chances of being taken in the lottery/with a higher pick.

@JayHawkFanToo Thanks for the link posting tutorial. I was close at one time, as I would get blue "clickable" text, but it would never take you anywhere.

The Heat have done about as good a job as could be expected in recovering, especially considering how they kind of got shafted by LeBron's waiting period. Many players they might have targeted were already off the board and signed, and they were too late to get in on many others (like Pau Gasol). Not sure how wise it was to pay Bosh what they did. They probably wouldn't have signed Granger at all had they known they had the LeBron money to play with. Gotta wonder if they would have bothered trading up to get Napier. McRoberts is a nice piece, an upgrade over whoever - Birdman, Haslem, Rashard Lewis.

All that being said, I can't see them being all that close to last year's team unless Wade dips his legs in the fountain of youth.

@JayHawkFanToo Regarding Mario's deal, Marc Stein is reporting it's in the $8 mil range ($4 mil/year), so if that's accurate no pay cut.

@Crimsonorblue22 Man though, that reporter teed it up for him to throw a shout-out and props to KU and instead he lumped us in with Memphis ("two top notch programs" ).

Major faux pas Tarik!

Check out this dunk from Wiggins in warm-ups:

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/post/_/id/11211400/andrew-wiggins-shows-cavaliers-timberwolves-fans-back-360-dunk ↗ ↗

P.S. What's the key to getting the links properly posted? Right now it's just copy & paste guys. Sorry!

@ralster DWade in his prime is easily one of the 5 best 2-guards in the history of the league. Maybe #3 after Jordan & Kobe. Even despite my souring on some of his dirty tactics the past few years, I still count myself lucky to have watched the guy play.

And just a little bit more good news regarding Wiggins staying in Cleveland:

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/11209471/cleveland-cavaliers-trade-andrew-wiggins-coach-david-blatt-says ↗ ↗

This also confirms what I've been saying, and that Minnesota isn't making the deal without Wiggins.

@ralster Agree on your assessment of Wade.

While following the LeBron free agency saga something that was mentioned a time or two was the idea of the Heat acquiring another capable 2-guard and transitioning DWade to a Manu Ginobili type role to try and maintain a couple more years of effectiveness from him. That was quickly seen as not practical when they were assumed to be re-signing LeBron, as they wouldn't have the cap space to acquire someone the caliber they would need to move Wade into that role. Now though without the LBJ max contract to deal with, perhaps they have that flexibility, although at least for this off-season I don't know that there are any 2-guards of that caliber left (or if there were ever any to begin with for that matter), but perhaps down the line that may still be in the works.

@JayHawkFanToo I read that about his contract too. A couple of things. First, I don't think it makes him come off as selfish. Did you know that until this year with the Cavs he had never even been the highest paid player on his own team? To be in the league 12 years or whatever it has been and for that to just now be the case for him is ridiculous. If in 2 years he's still the best player in the league, I wouldn't have a problem with him commanding another max contract.

As for if I'm the Cavs GM, I wouldn't have to worry about him taking his talents to the highest bidder because I would be the highest bidder. I'd make sure we had the cap room to offer him the max if that's what he wanted.

Regarding trading for Love, some of these teams crack me up. I've read differing reports on whether Golden State was willing to give up Klay Thompson or whether it was something else that stalled that deal, but say it was that Golden State didn't want to give him up...are you kidding me? Klay freakin' Thompson? I see this in baseball a lot. Teams expecting the trade deadline sellers to just hand over their best players but they don't want to give up their best prospects in return. To get talent you usually have to part ways with something you'd rather keep. No one is just going to take your trash for Kevin Love! It is for this reason that I believe the Love to Cleveland deal will only get done if they include Wiggins. Pretending to be Flip Saunders, there's no way I can get excited about Dion Waiters or Tristan Thompson, nor can I sell that return to the Minnesota fans. Maybe if the market dries up for Love and they get desperate to move him or lose him, but way too early and still multiple suitors for them to consider such a meager offer from Cleveland (especially considering that now that they have LeBron, all their 1st round picks they've been stockpiling have substantially reduced value. Instead of those being lottery picks, they're now likely early to mid 20s).

Lastly regarding Wiggins himself, it remains to be seen just how good he'll be in the NBA. Say his outside shot never improves. Or his handles. Then he's still a very good player - great in transition and the ability to be a great defender. But in that scenario he's not the future of the franchise. Superstardom is not guaranteed. How many thought Ben McLemore was going to bust onto the NBA with a splash? Instead he struggled, even with his shot. For someone who was compared to Ray Allen in having one of the most pure shots in the game, this illustrates that nothing is guaranteed. Now is Wiggins on another level? We think so; I think so. I think he has the best chance of anyone Self has put into the league. But perhaps we should wait and see him play a few games...

@truehawk93 You may think it would be silly to trade Wiggins for Love, but remember Cleveland is a town that hasn't seen a championship in any sport in like 50 years. If you have LeBron, who I don't think anyone would argue is the best player on the planet right now, you try and do everything you can to win in the window you have him. I don't think that's silly.

And waiting for Love to hit the open market on the presumption he's going to the Cavs is the kind of front office optimism that just sunk Miami. There will be many suitors and many who will likely be able to offer more. And in the interim you risk him being traded to Golden State or some other team that he really likes and re-signs there.

I'm not one who is advocating such a trade. In fact, I'm 100% hoping that trade doesn't happen, because he has a better chance to win in Cleveland and the TWolves are garbage. But a lot of people need to take their crimson & blue colored glasses off and ask yourself if you're the Cleveland GM, where winning just one championship would make you a god in that town, do you not pull out all the stops?

@HighEliteMajor I'm inclined to agree that if I were Cleveland I'd trade Wiggins for Love. I'm just saying I don't want it to happen because Minnesota is a significant downgrade destination.

As for Love's numbers, they are impressive. Admittedly, I haven't watched him play that much, but he's never led Minnesota to anything (have they even made the playoffs with him there? I looked and it doesn't appear so) so I'd stop short of calling him a superstar. All three of Miami's former "big 3" at least made the playoffs on their own. Even Bosh with Toronto. Obviously basketball is a team sport, but I just think to be dubbed a superstar you should be able to carry your team to at least finish in the middle of your conference (with 15 teams/conference, and 8th place finish is exactly in the middle).

In speaking with a few TWolves fans, they kind of feel the same way, that he's very good but at the same time not all he's cracked up to be. A couple even said he deliberately pads his rebounding stats, going all out and out of his way to snatch boards away from teammates (again, I can neither confirm nor deny this, having not watched an abundance of TWolves games. I don't think I've watched any actually, since they're never in the playoffs. I just see the occasional highlight on Sportscenter).

@JayHawkFanToo Thanks for the link regarding Wiggins. I hope that's true and he is in fact allowed to stay in Cleveland. A lot of the Wiggins for Love speculation came from the fact that in his letter to SI, LeBron didn't mention Wiggins by name as being one of the players he was excited about playing with (Kyrie Irving & Dion Waiters were mentioned, among others). And as @Hawk8086 queried - how do you trade Love to the Cavs without getting Wiggins in return? Anybody else on that roster (except for LeBron & Irving) are marginal at best. Waiters is thoroughly unimpressive and Bennett may be a bust. Tristan Thompson would be a nice addition to any trade, but not as the centerpiece. The Cavs do have a bunch of draft picks with which to trade, just not sure that is enough to get a trade done. And the Wolves have other options, so they can afford to wait and let it play out a bit.

As for the Heat, don't count on Melo or Gasol. Melo is down to the Knicks & Chicago, and I don't know if he would reopen his "recruitment" for what would likely be less money with Miami. Gasol looks like he's headed to Chicago. Not really any more stars on the market. They could try and grab Trevor Ariza (Houston is zeroed in on him as well). After that, the talent level drops down yet another tier.

And lastly to the Cavs cap concerns, like I said they have a lot of flexibility. In a few years it's true that some of their rookies will command larger contracts. But Irving is already locked up, so they don't have to worry about him. And Anderson Varejao will be coming off the books at a salary of almost $10 mil/year. Guys like Bennett & Thompson haven't proven enough yet that their contracts will grow too much. And the cap will surely go up some over the years. So I don't think they're in too bad of shape. Definitely nothing like Miami was looking at this past off-season.

@JayHawkFanToo Add to the losers:

The Houston Rockets. I think everyone figured once James left Miami that Bosh would take the max Houston could offer. Plan A was Melo, plan B was Bosh, now they're left (like the majority of the other teams) sifting through what's left. They traded away (or agreed to trade away anyway) Omar Asik & Jeremy Lin (and threw in a first round pick with Lin) just to clear cap space. They've also had the Mavericks force their hand on Chandler Parsons, who they'd like to keep but now must match Dallas's offer sheet. Obviously not the off-season this franchise, who I think most agree was on an upward trajectory, had in mind.

Pat Riley. Obviously we could lump him in with the Heat all together, but I think he's a separate entity. Keeping LeBron and some semblance of a championship team together would have been his swan song as he headed off into retirement. Now he's got to try and build it back up. He talked Bosh & Wade into opting out to upgrade the roster, just to end up giving Bosh max money. Where does that leave him with Wade, who's got to be looking at him like "wtf Pat?". He had what I consider a serious mis-read of the cap situation, as well as an overestimation of his ability to clunk his rings down on the table and get all these top-tier free agents to come to Miami for significantly less money. To go from having his team in the Finals to this mess...well ya got your work cut out for you Riles.

Phoenix, Boston, Golden State, and any other team thought to be in serious contention to land Kevin Love. Cleveland is positioned brilliantly both with the flexibility to add a contract such as the one Love is likely to command as well as the tradeable assets (players & draft picks) that should allow them to pull the deal off. And with LBJ, Love has come out and said he would now be willing to go and stay in Cleveland. Somehow, likely in spite of Gilbert & the Cavs front office, everything has fallen into place.

And the final loser could unfortunately be Wiggins. If he gets dealt to Minnesota, that is a bummer. To go from a team that without James had a lot of young promising talent, to being part of the same team plus James, to being on a Minnesota team that wouldn't even have Kevin Love...wow. Might call up Kevin Garnett and ask him how he was able to stand so many abysmal seasons there.

@ralster You did not really call Jabari Parker the "true next LeBron" right?

Personally I don't like saying anyone is the next Jordan, Kobe, LBJ, etc., but I know there will always be comparisons. But Parker? Maybe offensively...someday, but the guy can't guard a ham sandwich, while LeBron is regularly on the NBA all defense team.

And isn't this two summers in a row he's gotten himself severely out of shape? I think once was due to injury, but could we perhaps be looking at someone who has the same conditioning & fitness issues that Sherron had?

Quotes from coach Self. They are the best education

@HighEliteMajor Well, sometimes. Other times they're a smokescreen. How many times were we over on kusports and a poster would be talking up some unranked player we signed and pointing to a quote from Self about how good the guy is, and then saying things like "Self just found another diamond in the rough", or "Self wouldn't be bringing him in if he didn't like his game. I'll trust coach Self over you."

Of course, that's not really relevant to the discussion, just more of a caution to everyone to not take what Self says at face value. In addition to his many other talents, the guy knows how to talk to the media.

As to these particular quotes, nothing really earth shattering. Of course Self likes guys with experience. Experience enhances the chances of having a greater basketball IQ, at least within the system. It means you spend less time coaching things like how to set a screen or where a certain player should be standing in a particular situation, and you delve deeper into the playbook. You work on execution rather than teaching fundamentals.

I believe Self has always known this. I mean, this wasn't his first freshman-laden team. This wasn't his first time dealing with talented freshman. So this quote, for me, still doesn't address the premise that Self has always and continues to recruit the best talent. Take the second part of his quote:

"But I do think we could have a better team (referring to this upcoming season). Last year, I think that because we were so young, I think we didn't play as well consistently as what we had hoped for."

So Self thought we were too young last year to develop consistency? That didn't stop him from recruiting top 10, top 20 talent again this year. Talent that might very well play over more experienced players already on the roster. When you look at the recruiting classes side by side: Wiggins (1) vs Alexander (3), Selden (14) vs Oubre (11), Frankamp (34) vs Graham (36), and we'll say Mason vs Mykhailiuk. Pretty similar make-up. The glaring difference is Embiid, who was significantly lower ranked at the time of his signing but ended at #6 (per ESPN rankings). And we see Self continue to recruit the top players from the '15 class.

To me, the quote doesn't signal any kind of philosophical recruiting shift for Self. All it says is that Self acknowledges that there are going to be some years that shake out where we are really young, and other years that we will be more experienced.

Sorry, didn't mean to shat all over your revelation. But for me, I won't consider our strategy any different until I see him stop targeting top 10, presumed OAD talent.

P.S. I also wonder how we will view that level of talent if the NBA changes its rules and players have to stay in college 2 years. Is that enough time that we would feel better about recruiting that tier again?

@ralster Just for point of clarification, Matta has championship game experience. Back in '07 the Greg Oden-Mike Conley Jr. led Buckeyes lost to defending champ Florida in the title game.

@drgnslayr Just for clarification sake, TRob lost his mom during the '11 season, not the '12 season. Not sure if you knew that or forgot, but the way it reads makes it sound like TRob lost his mom in the middle of the '11-'12 season that we made the Championship game, when in fact it was the season before.

@drgnslayr Agree about appeasing LeBron.

In all actuality, the Heat need a lot. A shot blocker would be great, but they have to get someone productive to take the burden off of Wade. They rested him a ton this past year and he still wore down. They'll also likely need a veteran PG (as it appears Chalmers won't be back) to pair with Napier.

I just saw that all 3 have opted out, along with Haslem. So they have $55 mil in cap space, and Norris Cole. That's it. Chris Broussard and the other guy in the video discussing the opt outs said they thought they'd all take cuts from around $20 mil down to $15-16 mil and re-sign with the Heat. Say it's $15 mil, that's still only $10 mil left to fill out their roster! (The ESPN guys estimated it to be around $7-8 mil, based on the assumption that they'd also bring back Haslem) All these Carmelo, Kyle Lowry, Pau Gasol scenarios seem like fantasies. Unless I'm missing something (admittedly I don't know a lot about the NBA and their cap structure, mid-level exceptions, players being "amnestied", etc.). And people keep talking about them trading Norris Cole to clear another $2 mil plus from the cap. Who is trading for that guy? The Heat can't even spice the trade up with draft picks or players with expiring contracts.

Again, I may be missing something, but I just don't see this being quite the big deal as a lot of people are making it out to be.

I think a lot of where James ends up depends on how he views his supporting cast, and how up front with them he is. If he's honest with himself, he doesn't see DWade as the sidekick that can aid him along the road to championships anymore. Not saying Wade can't ever win another championship, but not as the #2 guy. He doesn't see Bosh as a guy who can take over games.

But you never know. Wade is his buddy, so maybe he wants to believe so bad that he's still got it, or at least that he can get it back, that he doesn't accept the reality of Wade's decline.

Let's say he does realize the current state of things. Just prior to the draft the "Big3" had a meeting between themselves to discuss things. How upfront was LeBron? Do we think he said "look guys, if we want to keep this thing going we have to get better. Retool. To do that we need some cap space, and both ya'll have drastically underperformed based on the salary you're making. My suggestion is you opt out, then re-sign for less and allow us to get some better complimentary pieces." That'd be pretty tough to say, especially to a friend, to suggest he needs to leave millions on the table.

My best guess is that LeBron is aware of how bad his supporting cast is, but that he didn't come out and say it when they all met. It probably went something along the lines of "let's see what Riles does, who he can draft & bring in, and go from there." Riley then will do his best with the limited resources and vast number of roster spots he has to fill. It will look slightly improved; definitely younger. And while not really good enough for what LBJ thinks he needs to win, he signs another contract with an opt-out clause after one year, and we'll go through this again next year.

@jaybate 1.0 While I appreciate your sentiment - I think most of us think Self is great and would love for him to get as much recognition as possible - I think this is a slight overreaction. First off, when I made my own thread about ESPN counting down the coaches, I discussed the criteria they were using. While I agree it's severely flawed, they are judging the coaches by "who is doing the best job now." They leave that fairly open-ended, as it cannot simply be a singular season. So something in the 3-5 year range. Because of this, Self's record at Illinois, Tulsa, and even Oral Roberts are irrelevant to the rankings.

So let's say it's 5 years, and as you say Self has the winningest record the past 5 years. However, there has to be added weight and consideration given to tournament success. In the past 5 years, Self reached the title game. That's great. However, he has twice lost in the round of 32, once as a one seed to UNI, once as a two seed to Stanford. Those two teams bookend the five year span. In between he also lost in the elite 8 with the heavy favorite MorrisHawks to VCU, and he lost to Michigan in the sweet 16. Both losses came as one seeds. I don't think it's inaccurate to say that in 4 of the 5 years, he has lost before it was expected, in some cases much sooner.

As to the runner-up team in '12, you point out that KU lost to Calipari without a single Mickey D or OAD on the roster, and with having to play Connor Teahan. Whose fault is that? Self's the guy in charge of recruiting. Simply put, you can't give the guy credit for coaching up lesser talent without also recognizing the recruiting shortcomings that led to having to play said lesser talent.

Anyway, where does Self truly belong, factoring in tournament success and not simply overall winning percentage over the past 5 seasons? Coach K won a ring 5 years ago, and you have him #1. OK. Pitino also has a ring, as well as a Final 4 appearance the year prior. So I don't really have a problem with him being in front of Self. Calipari has a ring, a runner-up, a Final 4 appearance, and an elite 8 appearance. He does have the one NIT embarrassment, but if you told me Self could have those results over a five year period, I'd happily take a year in the NIT. As to the lack of cheating...as slimy as I think Calipari is, it doesn't surprise me that ESPN doesn't rank him at 10th and say "well, he cheats, so we dropped him a half dozen spots or so." With his recent track record, until something is proven, he has to be ranked ahead of Self.

So that's three guys who have rings in the past 5 years that for now seem ahead of Self. The other two champions during those 5 years were both won by UCONN, one by Calhoun who isn't coaching and most recently by Ollie, who they ranked behind Self but in the top 10. So rings alone don't determine the remaining 4-6 spots. Izzo, Donovan, Self. I would definitely argue that Self be ranked above Izzo. Izzo has one Final 4 five seasons ago, but unspectacular tournament result since (a couple of sweet 16s and an elite 8 ). So I'd put Izzo at 6. So really it's Donovan vs Self to see who goes at #4. Donovan made the Final 4 this past season, and had three consecutive elite 8 trips prior to that. I'd say Donovan has more tournament success over the past 5 years, despite not advancing to a championship game as Self did. But should Self's conference titles and overall winning percentage give him the edge. To me it's a coin flip.

So really, Self might have been slighted two spots. Not sure how much of a slap in the face that is, since it is a very subjective ranking and the criteria was poorly defined.

@JayHawkFanToo Thanks for link. I had heard about the JoJo tape delay reaction. I can only imagine the harsh Philly fans' blood beginning to boil at the initial shot of Embiid!

I didn't watch the draft, but rather followed on ESPN and hadn't heard about the Isaiah Austin story. That's pretty cool.

@drgnslayr I agree. I had posted on another thread awhile back (I think before JoJo's foot injury actually), comparing the situations in Cleveland to Miami. Starting line-up of Irving, Waiters, LeBron, Bennett, & Embiid vs. Chamlers/unnamed free agent or rookie PG, aging Wade, LeBron, yet to be determined free agent or rookie post player, and disappearing Bosh. Obviously swapping Wiggins for JoJo isn't a straight switch; either they have to play small with LeBron at the 4, or Waiters sits and they take a downgrade on talent plugging in a center. Still, I think that's a younger, more talented group than he ever had his first go-around in Cleveland.

I actually see him returning to Miami, but wouldn't be surprised if he chose to come back to Cleveland.

@nuleafjhawk @JayHawkFanToo Guess I missed that.

@JayHawkFanToo Yeah, they moved up two spots. By trading 2 second round picks. That's hardly moving up to grab prospects. And clearly not what you meant when you pondered the possibility. This was your query about what the Heat's situation following LeBron opting out:

"Will the Heat stay together minus LeBron and use the available money and move up to get one or two of the top prospects?"

That's not what happened at all. They moved up grab a guy to help entice LeBron to stay. They didn't use money saved by bidding him farewell to land a lottery talent. They got a guy who was likely going to fall to them anyway, but because the story broke about how they wanted him, Charlotte used that to squeeze some worthless 2nd rounders from them. Big deal.

I did say I didn't think Miami would make a trade, so I was incorrect in that assumption. Just don't think the trade was what that big a deal.

That suit!

@brooksmd As @justanotherfan indicated, they have Nerlens Noel, who sat all of last year. They also have Thaddeus Young (although he has been the subject of some trade rumors) and some other role players in the post.

Interesting that Philly had two lottery picks, and they used their second on a PG, then traded him to Orlando for a Euro post player that they had drafted just a few spots later, and he will stay with his European team for 2 more years. So they had two lottery picks, and it might end up (depending on JoJo's recovery) that neither of them play for them next year at all.

@ralster I have the same DVD that has both Final 4 games but not in their entirety, yet does have the whole championship game. I was thinking I got it from Sports Illustrated in their post-championship package. Also included (on a separate DVD) is a pretty cool season recap narrated by Kevin Harlan. I didn't get the whole 6 disc championship run, but I I did get the UNC game on DVD from cbssports. I couldn't not have that game to relive!

I was just talking about the '08 team on another thread. Greatest collection of 4 perimeter players we've seen under Self. The post players weren't as good as some other teams, but guys like Darnell & Sasha were indeed all fight & heart.

Reminiscing...I might watch those DVDs tonight! RCJHGKU!

@truehawk93 Well, it was just the post players. The 2008 NC team had probably the greatest collection of 4 perimeter players we've seen under Self, especially defensively. It was a perfect group, with Sherron off the bench. When might we see that level of game-ready talent come off the bench again? In any case, the only point was that it could be possible to win with the group of Ellis, Traylor, Mickelson, & Lucas in the post.

As for Ellis, expectations were definitely high for him coming in. Maybe too high. There are several examples of Self's post players who didn't progress to star levels until their junior year. TRob, Markieff, Withey. The difference is all those players weren't starters until their junior year. Once they got the opportunity to start, they shined. So maybe it is just that Ellis was better suited to come off the bench one more year (last season) while progressing to the level we expect. For a guy like Ellis, who will never be a bruiser inside, that second year to really toughen up might have been what he needed.

As to whether he "breaks out" this year, I think it depends on what he works on and how Self uses him. I've long been saying if he wants to make it in the league it will be at the 3. However, his chances of playing the 3 for Self are almost nonexistent. So, does he spend his off-seasons working on parts of his game he'll need refined for the next level? Even though they won't provide a ton of immediate dividends at the college level? Or does he spend time working on parts of his game more advantageous to his time at KU, knowing if he wants to play in the NBA the post part of his game is drastically less important?

Not sure, guess we'll see in a few months...