🏀 KuBuckets Archive

@HighEliteMajor said:

I'm sure someone can make the case not to play WSU. But you'd have to work at it.

How about we're not going to let some chump commuter school dictate terms to us and try and pressure us in the media into playing them? If nothing else, I'm for not playing them on principle.

Let's get this straight - WSU needs this game. We (KU) do not. When one party needs something from another party, the way to go about that is not to act like a bunch of entitled obnoxious ingrates. In short, you'll catch more flies with honey.

Think of it like this - it sets a bad precedent that we can basically be bullied by these non-entities into playing them. IF the game ever happens, it needs to be because we wish it so.

(I also am 100% in agreement with us never playing Misery again)

@Crimsonorblue22 Well it depends on how he views next season and what the team will need.

First off, let me say that whenever Ellis leaves he will be missed. As I stated following the Orlando Classic, the offense ran through him and looked poor otherwise. And obviously he does a lot of things right that an incoming freshman will struggle with out of the box, much like Ellis did in his freshman campaign.

That being said, I can see a big picture scenario where Self might think the grass will be greener with someone else. How bad does the UK beatdown stick in his craw? They will surely either bring back a couple of their bigs and/or bring in new ones. Might Self think that he might be better off replacing Ellis, who has trouble finishing against height & length (see Stanford, UK games), and as I previously mentioned is not a great defender or rebounder? If Self could bring in someone 6'10" or taller, I could see the trade-off at least intriguing him. And I've always thought that the loss to UK's OADs in the 2012 title game was at least partially the cause of his shift in recruiting philosophy regarding OADs, so there is a precedent here.

@JayHawkFanToo I agree that overall a freshman will not play to the level of a senior Perry Ellis. But they might defend better than him. Or rebound. Again, it could just be that Self doesn't think he could win it all with a smallish front court, so he ushers off Perry. Or he could do the same to Cliff. The point is, I could see him trying to shake up the roster if he feels he needs to add height but can't do so without someone leaving because recruits would be scared off by all of the returning minutes otherwise. It might be a moot point, as Cliff could opt to leave anyway. But in a world where both are set to return, we won't have a many minutes in the post to entice recruits, and it was just something that crossed my mind.

There's the link to the youtube video for Self's press conference today (sorry, I tried getting the link to work, but it didn't create a link and instead just popped up the actual youtube video box. Which would have been fine, but when I clicked play it gave me an error message. So until someone smarter than me fixes it or explains how, you'll have to copy & paste). Among the main topics discussed were Kelly Oubre and his playing time (or lack thereof) and progress.

As usual, the reporters didn't ask the questions we'd really like them to, in this case where the minutes will come from for Oubre if/when he does start playing well. It's like the reporters are trying to lead Bill to that question without actually asking it. But he's too press savvy for that.

I was happy to hear that apparently Graham's shoulder is OK, although they have him wearing a yellow shirt in practice (Self compares it to football, a reference to QBs wearing red shirts in practice so as to not get hit).

@konkeyDong First of all, great post. Thanks for doing all the legwork on that and for sharing your insights!

@Crimsonorblue22 You bring up something interesting regarding the possibility of Self advising Ellis to turn pro. Part of me wonders if Self actually wants that. I have no doubt that Self appreciates what Perry brings in terms of scoring and versatility, but because he's a bit undersized, because he's more of a finesse player, because he's a mediocre-at-best defender, because he's a mediocre-to-above-average-at-best rebounder, I wonder if Self would prefer to usher him off to the league and free up those minutes for one of these incoming recruits. I don't know anything about the 2016 recruiting class, but I would think that likelihood of him possibly wanting those minutes freed up would increase if the big man prospects are not as enticing next year (when Perry will be a senior) as they are this year.

And I'm not saying this to bash Perry or anything like that; I'm a huge Ellis supporter. But he just doesn't seem to be a real Self kinda guy, ya know? Anyway, just a thought.

@Crimsonorblue22 Lutz is such a buffoon. He took a dump on us by leaving? Here's what I'd say to that: you weren't his first choice which is why he came to KU in the first place. He couldn't beat out multiple other players who were either ranked below him or new to the program this season, so he slinked home to his back-up plan. Feel good about that Shocker fans.

@Crimsonorblue22 said:

I just can't compare him to Releford, nobody played D like him

For my money, Brandon Rush is still the gold standard regarding perimeter D.

@Crimsonorblue22 I don't know all the things that he's said, but during the game today something that kind of gave me pause was Dick Vitale and the other announcer saying that Self said he thought he'd be a great college player, but that his best basketball wouldn't come at the college level. As if to say that his game is more suited for the NBA than it is for college.

One of my concerns with Oubre is that his best offensive attribute is supposed to be his slashing ability. The ability to drive the ball to the wing. I've always thought that was a hugely de-emphasized talent to have in a Self offense. There have been a lot of guys, great athletes, come through the program that were said to have that ability, but who can we really count as huge successes that relied primarily on that skill? Tyshawn & Sherron, and that's about it really. Wiggins to a lesser extent. And it's easier to do that from the PG position than from the wing. Rush was pretty good at it, but he also had a great outside shot. In Self's offense, you usually need to be either a big or a sharpshooter to be great.

I'm rooting for the guy. It's not as if I want him to fail and transfer. I've just been speculating on his opportunities.

As others have mentioned, Mason was great this weekend. I was skeptical heading into the tournament, my feeling being he was too much of a gunner. I actually was hoping for Graham to take over the starting role soon. I thought Mason might be more suited for a "spark" role off the bench, a la Sherron his first two seasons. No more. Assuming this is the Mason we see the rest of the season, I'm in. Just awesome to see. Such a relief to not have to resign ourselves to mediocre-at-best (emphasis on the at-best) PG play!

Speaking of Graham, has there been any further comment on his shoulder injury? I just expected him to play more the last two games, but 7 min against Tennessee and then 5 minutes today. Even with Mason playing as well as he did, surely he could have taken a few minutes from Selden today if he was fully healthy.

Wayne, Wayne, Wayne. Ugh. Don't get me wrong, the defense is good. But I keep waiting for his scoring to come around. I thought this was going to be Selden's team, but it can't be without him carrying more of the scoring load. And honestly, I wonder if this team needs that for it to truly forge its identity.

What more can be said about Svi? What a find for Self late in the recruiting period.

Perry played great this tournament. I could do without him taking so many 3s. The real test will be once he faces a frontline with taller players again. He did show increased aggressiveness.

Already stated how I too am puzzled with Lucas not getting more minutes.

We can probably hold off on annointing Alexander star status (as many were ready to do after the Tennessee game). Good presence on defense, and his offense will continue to improve.

Greene was disappointing, but Oubre couldn't capitalize and gain any ground on him.

Most interesting thing to me is the limited rotation. Especially in a 3 games in 4 days situation, I expected our depth to really play a factor. But I guess the positive to take away from that is that our top tier guys must be in incredible shape to play 30+ minutes and maintain effectiveness.

@drgnslayr Do you think Self ran the in-bounds play for Traylor, or do you think they just threw the ball into him not anticipating Sparty fouling? I was thinking it was the latter.

Loving Mason on the boards! He did cost us a possession once he was so honed in on grabbing a board he knocked it out of one of our post player's hands and it went out of bounds, but still...loved it.

You say you liked what you saw from our offense, I'm not as sold. It looked like it was Ellis or bust for a lot of the game. If they couldn't get it to Perry or if he wasn't in the game, it was pretty bad. Mason would do what he could, but it's obvious that we're not dynamic enough in the post without Ellis to run high post offense, and with Wayne struggling it really hampers the rest of the perimeter threats.

Yeah, 6 pts on 3-3 shooting and 3 rebs for Lucas in 8 minutes...I don't understand him not seeing more action either.

And yes, Svi is awesome to watch!

EDIT: Just saw from @Crimsonorblue22 's earlier post that Self said he knew they were going to foul but decided to leave him in, so I guess that answers that. So good for Jamari and the confidence building I guess!

@JayHawkFanToo You could be right about Oubre. But you're dealing with all hypothetical "if this, then that" scenarios. Yes Oubre "might" end up being the better player. You "believe" that in time.... All I'm doing right now is objectively analyzing the situation. What actually is right now.

You mention Withey and what happened with him. You say "once he got some experience." Here is my point: does Oubre have that kind of time? Withey had to wait years before playing time opened up and he had the opportunity to garner that experience. I've laid out the scenarios for Oubre to see more PT and increase his opportunities. Greene certainly could leave the door open for Oubre to overtake him, but will even that be enough? Today both saw 6 minutes (and neither impressed). Self could very well go with 4 main perimeter players as we saw today, leaving both out of the main rotation. If that's the case, and Selden & Svi both return next year, how patient will Oubre be? How long would he be willing to wait?

(And yes, Self could find time for him this year even if he is the 5th or 6th perimeter player. But he definitely won't if he's the 6th, and it could be sporadic if he's the 5th)

@Crimsonorblue22 Well I can't speak for HEM, and obviously I am not doing any actual recruiting. I kind of get the sense this is not a real question but rather a barb directed at my assessment at Oubre, as if you're saying "since you don't think he belongs on the team, what are you looking for when you recruit?" Could be wrong, but if it is what you meant I'll again say that I was impressed with Oubre coming in as well. I've admitted I saw the same things you saw and was stoked we got him. It doesn't change my assessment that he is lagging behind and that I think it's going to be hard for him to earn minutes.

But assuming it was a real question, what I like to see in the kids Self recruits depends on the needs of the team, but I'll list a few general things. Personally I'm over the OAD craze. I'd like to see us focus on non-presumed OAD talent. For years I've also been hoping Self would get away from the "combo guard" situation and go out and recruit actual PGs. I do value athleticism, but not at the expense of basketball IQ, meaning I don't like the Al Davis approach to things in which you just recruit athletes because they have physical gifts you can't teach and your ego tells you that you can teach them the game. So I like it when we bring in guys like Svi, or Graham, who seem to just "get it". I think he needs to start adding more height in the post.

There's obviously tons of desirable traits, both tangible and intangible, in incoming recruits: coachability, good attitude, hard worker, good student, team player, outside shooting touch, toughness, nose for the ball, ball handling, passing, hops, speed, hates Missouri, etc.

@Crimsonorblue22 said:

I saw superb athleticism, desire to keep his man from scoring, and a team player.

And if all those were translating from summer league all-star games to Self's system, don't you think he'd be playing more? Those are all things Self values, especially the defense.

Again, that's what we're talking about: not what we saw prior to his arrival at KU, but what we've seen on the court now. I don't disagree with what you saw. I saw it too. But I haven't seen those things translate to this level. And my point is when it does translate, will it be too late to overtake Svi or Greene for minutes? Because they are going to continue to improve as well, likely at a higher rate because they are seeing more game action right now. He's not going to steal them from Selden, barring a complete breakdown of Self-fundamentals on Wayne's part.

@Crimsonorblue22 Yeah I saw him at the Nike Hoop Summit. He guarded Emmanuel Mudiay and looked very good doing it. But how much stock do we put in all-star games? Games with thrown together talent meant to showcase those individual talents. The purpose of those games is not to win. How one fits onto a team, within a system, and against a majority of players who have adapted to the college game is very different than how someone looks against other high school stars all looking to get theirs. I'm with HEM...how much do those summer games really mean when trying to translate his performance to a Self coached team?

@Crimsonorblue22 Lots of guys are studs in high school. Just like lots of guys are studs at the collegiate level. Yet that doesn't always translate to the next level. Maybe Oubre comes around. It's possible. But he's behind the rest of the perimeter players right now, so it will be an uphill battle for him. The one thing he has working for him are his lofty high school ranking & credentials. As has been discussed, Self seemed to pander to that once and it's well within the realm of possibility that it happens again.

The issue really isn't whether Oubre can play or not. The issue is opportunity. Minutes. Available playing time. However you want to phrase it. HEM has discussed this at length on many occasions. We've seen it season after season. Someone is on the outside looking in at available playing time, and often that leads to a transfer. Look at CF. Last year Self did just enough with both him & Greene to keep them around. Not rotation level minutes, but (depending on how you want to look at it) he either carved out a limited role for them or threw them scraps of minutes. That led to both players returning this year. But after awhile CF saw the writing on the wall and knew it would be doubtful he cracked the regular rotation this season, and knew he'd be in a dogfight for playing time for the remainder of his time at KU, so he elected to leave.

That situation is what I am predicting for Oubre. Just an objective assessment of the situation. There's no immediate playing time guaranteed to open up at the 2 or the 3, and he's behind 3 players for minutes right now (4 if you include Graham playing alongside Mason for stretches). There's also no guarantee Self doesn't recruit over him with the next OAD flavor of the month. Circumstances could change, sure. The scenarios are as follows:

1. He overtakes someone for playing time in the midst of the current season. The most likely candidate is Greene, due to his sub-par defense. Svi would be the next candidate, assuming he never finds his shooting touch and Oubre can make some gains on him in other areas.

2. Selden turns pro after this season. As I've said, I find this unlikely at this point, as he would have to see a moderate uptick in his scoring.

3. Svi heads home after one season.

4. Injury.

5. He doesn't overtake anyone for minutes this season, yet he feels he improves enough between his freshman & sophomore campaign that he can unseat someone next year.

Over the summer I had predicted Oubre would step right in for Wiggins and would be the starter, so it's not like I haven't been high on him as you and @JayHawkFanToo still are. But so far, even including the Kentucky game (which for all the talk about him being the best player in that game, Self saw fit to play him a whopping 13 minutes), he looks to be lagging behind, which if he stays there puts him on the transfer watch.

@JayHawkFanToo said:

Also, as far as not having enough time. I just don't buy it. If UK can find time for 10 McD All-Americans, I am sure Coach self can find time for his less heralded players.

I am sure that it is possible to play that many players (we are obviously seeing it at Kentucky), but what evidence have we seen from Self that he will change? This isn't the first team we've thought was deep, yet come conference play, it's 8 players. Maybe 9. You might not buy it, but you're not the buyer. You have to sell it to Self. And for 10 plus years in Lawrence, he hasn't looked to be in the market for that. As has been pointed out, we saw it in the Tennessee game. Come crunch time, his rotation shrinks. So yeah, they'll be playing Lafayette in 3 weeks and in a blowout he'll distribute the minutes out a little more, but for the majority of the season...don't bet on it.

@HighEliteMajor The PG scenarios you laid out in your "Example #2" are the scariest. We've been searching for solid PG play for so long! We got close to a year of it with senior Tyshawn (and maybe first semester junior Tyshawn too I suppose). That's it since Sherron left. And now we have two guys, a sophomore & a freshman, that I think most are very excited about. It would be a shame to lose either.

@JayHawkFanToo I think regarding Oubre you are caught up on his "potential" and high school ranking. You are not alone. Obviously Self is (or was) in the same boat, hence the UK start. But who is he going to overtake for minutes? It's highly unlikely he's going to shoot as well as Greene. Svi looks to be more polished at every phase of the game, so surpassing him seems unlikely. He's not going to surpass Selden. His best shot is that Selden leaves after this year, thus allowing him to at least be the 5th perimeter option. But ask yourself: in a scenario where Selden, Graham (who could steal minutes at the 2), Svi, & Greene all stay...how is he going to improve his stock at KU? Who do you honestly see him beating out?

As I've said in previous posts, I thought he was supposed to be a stud on the defensive end, and that would endear him to Self and thus enable him to see the court for significant minutes. It could still happen; he has the height, length, & athleticism that make him an attractive option. But the point is he was supposed to further along already; more "out-of-the-box" ready. Apparently he isn't, so it must be taught & learned. And that's put him on the outside looking in, where his opportunities to impress will be extremely limited.

I could be wrong, and Self could get paranoid about scaring off top recruits and begin playing him without merit again. Or everything could click for him, the game could slow down, and he might live up to his lofty ranking this year after all. But if he can't make up ground in-season this year and overtake someone for minutes, and if nobody leaves, why would he stay?

@HighEliteMajor Two huh? You don't think there's enough minutes to go around for 5? I think Self might be able to keep 5 happy. To do this though, he has to acknowledge the top 5 and drop the 6th man (right now that's Oubre) from getting minutes all together. He can't give that 6th guy 4-5 mpg like he is now. Distributing those elsewhere is likely the difference between a guy playing 10 mpg and being disgruntled and leaving, and playing 15 mpg and being placated enough to stay.

This will also severly hinder any attempts to bring in a top tier perimeter recruit in the spring. Which I'd be fine with, assuming Self can keep 5 of the current players on the team. This is also operating under the assumption that no one turns pro, which as I was postulating earlier it doesn't look like anyone on the perimeter is that close, IMO.

@HighEliteMajor I like the numbered points, and have a few responses for many:

1. Re: Cliff starting, I don't know that he needs to start, but definitely an uptick in minutes. I kind of like the Lucas/Perry pairing at the start of games. Cliff off the bench sort of reminds me of Arthur coming off the bench his freshman year.

2. I think we have just grown so accustomed to criticizing our PG play, we naturally have been nit-picking Mason. Not that his shoot first mentality and occasional questionable decisions haven't been worth mentioning, but as you reference later, I think the improved PG play has been the number 1 reason we can be better offensively.

3. I'm glad to see him getting crunch-time minutes. Not too long ago we were speculating/fearing that his PT could possibly slip and cause him to transfer. But he's the type of player Self needs to build around: the talented, skilled 3-4 year guys. Hopefully his D comes around to a serviceable level.

4. Just waiting on Svi!

5. The difference between Oubre's situation and that of EJ & Releford is the guys playing in front of them. Svi & Greene both have NBA level talent/ceilings. No one thought that about B-Star & Reed. There's not much upside in letting Oubre play through the mistakes right now. Regarding Oubre's game specifically, I thought his defense was going to be what set him apart. I thought maybe it would be just a notch below Wiggins' level last season. So far he looks about as poor as Greene did a season ago. Kind of a big let-down in my opinion. It's early so I don't think he needs to be banished to the end of the bench just yet, but if he can't bring something to the table soon I think he becomes the next player on the transfer watch list. Think about it - Selden doesn't look ready to turn pro after this season (just not enough scoring yet), assuming Svi doesn't either get homesick or chase the $$$ back overseas he'll be back. As long as Greene continues to get minutes he isn't going anywhere. Where does that leave Oubre next season? Would he consider a redshirt, or just transfer outright? Again, I know it's early, but we're always monitoring the roster situation and this looks like where it's headed.

6. I've been thinking that too for the last 2 days. Idk who said it last year (could have been me for all I know) but it's like a basketball game broke out during an episode of "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire?"

7. I wouldn't add Wiggins to this team, mainly because Wiggins would be gone after the season and the guys I mentioned at the 2 & 3 (Selden, Svi, Greene) are all good and most likely back next year as well, but I don't share your criticisms of him from a year ago. "Soft as a marshmellow?" I just don't remember him like that. "Too many bad shots?" Maybe, but I think that was more a product of our offense and with other guys not stepping up. Selden was pretty passive last year. Tharpe was abysmal. That was our perimeter offense - Tharpe, Selden, & Wiggins. He had to shoot, but I never got the sense that it was a "I'm gonna get mine" gunner mentality. Like I said, I wouldn't add Wiggins to this team just because of the long-term potential we have with some of this core, but it would have been nice to see how Wiggins performed a year ago with a real PG and competent players surrounding him on the perimeter.

@globaljaybird Mason sure played better. Efficient with his shots and improved decision making (I think he still had one fast break drive he should have dished it on and the jump pass to Selden that was intercepted and led to Wayne picking up the flagrant one were the only two major offenses I saw him commit today. But what a line: 11 pts 7 asts 6 rebs 2 stls. I'll take that all year long. Didn't leave much room for Graham to get on the court much that's for sure.

Ellis & Alexander were both awesome today (was kind of surprised Ellis' shooting line was as poor as it was: 6-16) , and even Lucas in his limited minutes impressed me.

Still waiting for Svi to find his rhythm shooting. Greene hit some clutch 3s today (seemed like they came at very crucial moments of the game).

Selden was a bit more under the radar, but steady.

As @Hawk8086 has already stated, Oubre continues to look lost.

@Crimsonorblue22 Agreed on Jamari. There were I think 4 plays in a row where I was cursing at the TV, mostly because I couldn't believe Self was leaving him in there. It's too bad, because I do think he can be effective, but he needs to be paired with a bigger post player to really play well I think. Perry is kind of the same way, just significantly more skilled.

@KUSTEVE He's still shooting it too much for my tastes. Once in the first half he got the ball on a fast break and clearly should have given it up, instead he tried scoring himself and got his shot blocked. Perry followed with a jam off the rejection, but regardless he should have been looking to pass. This was just one example that sticks out.

To me Graham looks like the guy we'll need in there to ascend to the next level.

@HighEliteMajor Well, yeah it was a lame explanation, but he also can't come out and say "he was a bum in high school". Also, I remember there being something to what JayHawkFanToo said, and that there wasn't any interest from him. He was part of Will Shields' inner circle of "advisors" (having played with his son Shevon in high school). I think he was steered clear of us for whatever reason.

@HighEliteMajor said:

Willie Cauley-Stein: Cauley-Stein's mom said she didn't understand why Self didn't recruit him harder. Self said, well, if we got Cauly-Stein we would not have gotten Embiid. Interesting. Because we have neither one right now.

Well a couple things. First of all, no one saw Embiid's meteoric rise making him a OAD. When we signed him we were thinking project, not OAD lottery pick.

The other thing I'd ask Cauly-Stein's mom was "did you see your son play in high school?" I did a few times, and he was garbage. Passive. Inactive. Lazy. That could have had something to do with it.

@MoonwalkMafia I was just giving you a good natured ribbing because you mentioned Late Night being held during an ALCS game in the same breath as you did the Fall Break, whilst stating those as contrasting factors to UK's exciting event. I didn't fail to see the crux of your point, I just failed to comment on it.

Regarding the Fall Break though, it is my understanding that Late Night is a set date. At midnight it marks the date that teams are allowed by the NCAA to officially hold practices. So if I am correct, the date of Late Night cannot be changed, in which case your issue is that the school scheduled it's fall break at the wrong time? If this is the case, the person(s) who "dropped the ball" would most certainly be someone outside the athletic department, let alone the basketball program.

At any rate, I myself did not attend, but one of my brothers did and he also stated that compared to years past it was rather dead.

@MoonwalkMafia said:

In contrast, our Late Night this year was on the Friday before Fall Break and during a Royals ALCS game.

Yeah! How did someone not plan around the Royals game?!? I mean, they make the playoffs once every 29 years...how was there no preparation for that? sarcasm font

@HighEliteMajor said:

so you are actually going to participate now? We can count on you?

Haha...of course! I do this every year. Usually I'm back a bit sooner, but during the "off-season" I always go dark. Only so many times I can see posters list their starting line-ups, ya know?

What's up everybody? First post since this summer. Missed the exhibition games and just finished watching the UCSB game this morning.

First off, I find it...odd I guess would be the best way to describe it, how the freshmen I expected big things from were Alexander & Oubre (our first two recruits), and so far Svi & Graham appear to be more firmly entrenched in the rotation. One game so far, I know. But just from everything I've read from practices & the exhibition games. Again, just strange to me.

Cliff I think finds his way into the starting line-up eventually, but Oubre's situation looks far more bleak. As others have illustrated, Graham & Mason are fixtures because of their position/ball handling. Selden is a lock also. So he's fighting Svi & Greene for the last bits of meaningful minutes. My expectation was that he'd have the upper hand on the younger Svi, and that his projected toughness & defensive prowess would be enough to overtake Greene. So far, Svi looks to be the superior talent, and that's without his outside shot falling yet. If that starts to happen, it's not even close. So he's left to battle it out with Greene.

I have mixed feelings about our PG situation. On the one hand, I'm not sold on Mason being the caliber of player that can lead us to a Final 4 or championship, not just this year but down the road as well. In all honesty, I had hoped that what we saw in the NCAA tournament last season might have signaled a shift within Self's pecking order and that Frankamp had overtaken Mason in his eyes. Obviously that wasn't the case, and now CF is gone. I've seen posters compare Mason to Sherron, or to Tyshawn. The problem is he isn't as talented as either of those players. Sherron was a blue chip PG coming out of HS. And Tyshawn had blazing speed and length. Mason is not the shooter Sherron was, and doesn't have the same physical gifts Tyshawn had, yet he has that scoring PG mentality like both of them. To me, that's a detriment to the team.

On the other hand, at the end of the day I'd still take Mason over Tharpe. Just not being a black hole on the defensive end of the floor alone makes him an upgrade. And we have Graham, who (again, after one game) looks like the genuine article. I think ideally Mason moves to the back-up PG role a la Sherron in '07-'08. Best coming off the bench, being a spark plug. For that to happen, Graham will have to continue to play at a high level.

Anyway, just a couple of random observations after one game.

Thanks for the link slayr! Interesting read.

Wasn't too long ago that I had posted a thread regarding how good the Big 12 really was. My position has always been based on the lack of tournament success. No final four teams during the 10-year conference winning streak. Very few legitimate NC contenders aside from KU teams. Your link certainly highlighted the dismall tournament record of the league. And now I see things like how the number of NBA draft picks our conference has produced is dwarfed by other conferences and it just reaffirms my belief that the Big 12 is mediocre at best in relation to the other power conferences, and in many ways is vastly inferior.

The staunch supporters of the league will point to kenpom stats to support their belief that the Big 12 has been good.

the Big 12 was good ya'll ↗

Others downplay the tournament, saying that a single-elimination tournament isn't a good measuring stick of the level of competition within a conference. That Final Fours and National Championships are more about getting hot or lucky than how good teams are. That it is not a good judge and rarely reveals who the truly best team in college basketball was over the course of 4 months or so.

My response to those dismissing the tournament...I will acknowledge that a modicum of luck and getting hot can certainly play a part, but you also have to have talent to advance. If the Big 12 was equally as talented as other conferences, shouldn't the law of averages have evened things out a little bit over the 15 year stretch provided in that link? Shouldn't the conference have had their fair share of teams get "lucky" or "hot", assuming they possessed the requisite talent? Sure you can point to examples of teams not being the best or even in the conversation for the best teams in the country that have gotten hot and advanced to the Final Four or won a NC, but over such a large sample size should we really see such a gap? I mean, sample size is essentially the argument of those who believe the conference is good - that the tournament is too small of a sample size but the season has many more games to expose how good teams really are. So in this sense, seeing the trend over so many years, can we not acknowledge the failings of the conference on such a large scale?

@HighEliteMajor I'm the same way, that I think Zimmerman won't be a OAD and should definitely be Self's #1 recruiting target. I was just giving you a little crap cuz I remembered reading that, but saw he wasn't included in your ideal recruiting class.

I too am in the camp that would like us to get off the OAD merry-go-round. However, something that always sticks in the back of my mind is the possibility of the NBA raising its age limit. Whoever has some of the higher ranked prospects from the year whenever they raise it will suddenly have some OAD players for two years and could really have an advantage.

P.S. You should go over to my "how good is the big 12" thread. Love to hear your opinion, mostly because I think you'll be more in my camp and would articulate arguments better than I can.

@JayHawkFanToo Man where did you go to school? I went to Wichita State and our finals were nothing like that. Dropping the lowest score, open book, open notes, etc. Anyway...

You mention the references to our streak during television broadcasts. Outside of KU fans, who do you think that impresses? Are recruits more likely to choose a school based on being part of a conference championship winning streak, or for the chance to play for a national championship (admittedly, either of these is usually an afterthought, ranking behind such reasons as available playing time, player development, getting said player to the NBA, etc.). Regardless, because it gets mentioned in a TV broadcast is hardly a reason why I'd rather have the title streak. I'm sure if we win another national championship, that will get plenty of national attention (as it did following the '08 title).

As to whether it's one of the greatest feats in all sports...it has its merits, especially in this day and age of players leaving early. The years in which Self has had to replace all 5 starters (3 times I believe) and still won it are particularly impressive. However, without a legitimate and consistent challenger, it takes the shine off a bit. Which was kind of my original point. Rankings, kenpom, sagarin...all that aside, how many of these conference foes passes the eye test as great? The '07 Durant Texas team. The Ekpe Udoh Baylor team in '11 (which was hosed by the worst officiating I've ever seen in their elite 8 game against Duke, which would have given the conference at least one other final four team during this run), Maybe the '09 OU team with Blake Griffin & Willie Warren (13-3 in conference, went to the elite 8 and lost to eventual national champ UNC, who had brought everyone back from their '08 Final Four team). That's all I can think of really. But has there been a program that has pushed us? Someone in conference making us get better?

Again to get back to the original point, in all of sports greatness is achieved or maintained through post season success. In 5 years is anyone going to remember that the Big 12 got 70% of its members into the tournament (other than Big 12 honks)? Is anyone going to remember someone being ranked in the top 10? Do they hang banners or print T-shirts for that? The answer is no, no, and no. You know how I know - because I'm a pretty avid college basketball fan across the board, yet I couldn't tell you without looking who was ranked in the top 10 out of the Big 10 in 2009, or how many teams got into the tournament that year from the ACC. And aside from the embarrassing WSU & UK examples, I can't think of anyone printing t-shirts based on rankings.

They do have t-shirts for our conference streak. "Ten There, Done That." So that's something.

@JayHawkFanToo I'm not saying it's your "job" per se, but when you dismiss the tournament as nothing more than luck, as a fan you are essentially also dismissing the team's performance during those games as the tournament as also nothing more than luck. Good or bad, it's luck. If you run into someone who beats you, eh they just got lucky for that game. That's essentially your argument when you say that the tournament is nothing more than a team getting lucky for 6 games. I hold the Jayhawk's performances in those games, both good and bad, in much higher regard. I don't walk away from a victory and say "YES!!! We got so lucky today!"

Again, I liken the NCAA basketball season to a college course. The final is weighted and does count against your overall grade. Similarly, the NCAA tournament is weighted and counts against a team's overall evaluation. I would never have dreamed of going up to a professor in school and saying "so I know I bombed the final, but that was just me being unlucky on one day, having just one bad day, out of the semester. It shouldn't count in any way or be used to determine my final grade. Or at the very least, I should take two more tests and you can take the best two out of three."

I wonder if we would be having this argument if the Jayhawks didn't have their 10-year conference winning streak but had one or two more titles during that stretch. Or to put it another way, would you break up the streak and trade a handful of those conference championships for one more national championship?

If you say you would, there's your answer on how important the tournament is to defining your season. If you wouldn't, then we'll have to disagree, but you're crazy.

@HighEliteMajor Didn't I see you over on kusports talking about Zimmerman being the ideal recruit? :)

@JayHawkFanToo I would agree that National Titles do not necessarily define which has been the best team over the course of the season. However, when you hold the conference titles in such high regard remember that it only represents excellence among those other 9-11 teams. How does that translate nationally? What measuring stick do we have that says that the dominance over those 9-11 teams is worth anything? What do we have to judge whether it is more impressive than Gonzaga's streak in the West Coast Conference or wherever they play? Most will say the non-conference schedule, which to me is every bit as flawed because non-conference games are played in the first 2 months of the season. What is the true measure of how good a team is - how they play at the front end of their schedule, or how they're playing in March?

I get it. Many fans, because of KU bias and the disappointments not just of us but of the conference as a whole, wish to just explain away the tournament as being "lucky" or "hot". That's a cop-out. If you do that, you're basically absolving the team of all responsibility for their play. Like "we didn't get beat by a better team, we were just unlucky. We're still the better team". Problem is, you have to show it on the court.

Like I said, if you don't like the tournament I suppose you should support a BCS format and have computers tell you who is the best team, and then let that team print t-shirts and hang banners.

@KUinLA Okie St had a Final Four appearance in Self's first year at KU, the one year he didn't win the conference.

Regarding the Jayhawks underachieve in the tournament, this ties in with my desire to have a higher quality of conference opponent. How well are the Big 12 teams preparing KU for the tournament? How well are they preparing Bill? How often does he have to consider different strategies throughout the course of the conference season? Very, very rarely. Most of the time we just run our stuff and "out-talent" the rest of the conference.

@drgnslayr My blast isn't at our beloved 'hawks.

@Wigs2 Well it sounds like you are discounting the tournament all together, as if it plays absolutely no part in whether a team has a great season or not. If that's your position, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

However, even if you don't agree with my '88 KU team example, if you do agree that the tournament at least plays some part in how you define the success of a team, then it's all a matter of how much weight you assign to that. Like I said, I weight it heavily. Perhaps you weight it no more than just another game or series of games on the schedule. But if you do that, then why not just have a BCS system, where we ignore the tournament and just have kenpom or some computer ranking tell us who the best team was and award that team the championship? Really, if you don't let the tournament play a weighted role in defining success, then that is what it sounds like.

@drgnslayr Well my point is that it's possible to do both - valuing football as paramount, but also to commit to your basketball program. Michigan, Ohio St, Florida, etc. There is no reason why Texas, with their vast resources and alumni base, shouldn't have a basketball program on par with those schools.

As to what needs to change...I don't know. But forget titles...let's just get a team to the Final Four! I would say that overall the coaches in our league are good, but aside from Self we have no greats. Hoiberg is on the cusp and I really like what he's doing in Ames. But it just seems that top to bottom the conference is solid, yet unspectacular in terms of its coaching talent. And perhaps that is because the coaches don't have top notch staffs. It could be that upgrading the quality of assistant coaches could put a guy like Rick Barnes over the top.

Of course the conference, as it sits now, is at a disadvantage. We have only 10 schools, smallest of the Power 5. And while we didn't lose anybody that was irreplaceable from a basketball standpoint - Nebraska, Missouri, aTm, Colorado - replacing them with West Virginia and TCU is a downgrade. So maybe that's part of the answer - get better teams in the conference!

And even our beloved Jayhawks must share a little bit of the culpability when it comes to coming up short in the championship department. We should have more. Given our greatness and status as a blue blood, can we honestly say we've won our fair share? As many as we should have?

@Wigs2 said:> don't think one upset--although it's what we remember--defines a whole season.

I don't think it is the sole element to define a season, but it has to play a part. A large part even. I think it's possible to have a great team and not make the Final Four or win a championship, but tournament success has to carry a certain weight. Consider the '88 championship team. They were 21-11 going into the NCAA tournament. Nobody would consider that a great team. No conference championship. No conference tournament championship. But because they won 6 straight NCAA tournament games for the championship, don't we consider that to be a great team?

So if you accept the premise that a tournament run can elevate the status of a team from good to great, then you have to accept that the lack of tournament success can downgrade a team.

I guess one way to look at it is to think of the season as a college class. The NCAA tournament is the final, worth x% of your grade. If you're coasting through the class with a 98% heading into the final, you can afford to bomb that final test and still end the semester with an A (A = great). But if you're sitting at a 90%, you need an A on the Final to maintain that grade for the semester.

I think your example of Missouri in '11-'12 was a good one, but flaming out to a #15 seed in the opening round...I'd say their "greatness" that year is debatable.

@drgnslayr I would say that most other conferences, at least 4 of the 5 "Power 5" and at least 4 of 6 from the old BCS conferences value football over basketball (possible exception being the ACC in both the Power 5 and BCS, and definitely the old Big East in the BCS). Yet most of those conferences are able to consistently produce Final Four teams and even National Champions, so I think it is possible to be more of a football conference while also valuing basketball. Whether the Big 12 has done that is up for debate.

As to not taking Louisville, I've described that as the biggest "whiff" by our conference officials in the realignment/expansion era. They would have been a huge boon to BOTH our basketball and football pedigrees.

So while on another site I got into a debate over how good the Big 12 has been in basketball during our 10 year run of conference titles. My position is that the conference has been good at times, but definitely not great. To be a great team in college basketball, you have to have at least a modicum of tournament success. It's very hard to call yourself a great team if you don't at least reach the Final Four. Maybe that's not fair, but in my opinion that's the way it is. And really isn't that the way it is in ALL sports? Post-season success defines greatness? How many "great" non-Final 4 teams can you recall? Especially if you get outside of your comfort zone with teams you're familiar with (i.e., the '07 or '11 KU teams, or other Big 12 teams even). How many can we name off the top of our heads? Has the Big 12 had any great non-KU teams during this run?

So with that being said, how many non-KU Big 12 teams have made the Final Four during our 10-year run? The answer is none. Zero. Even including us, can a conference be deemed great if over a 10 year span it has 2 Final Fours? Some conferences get that in a single season, let alone a 10-year span!

The counterpoint to my argument was made with a link to this article The Big 12 was good y'all ↗

The basic premise of the article is that according to kenpom stats, the Big 12 has had more teams finish in the top 10 kenpom rankings.

I'm not denying that the Big 12 has been decent. The whole argument in fact came out of me lamenting the Big 12's decision to pass on Louisville back in '11. That it would have put another great team in our conference, and that you can't have a great conference without a couple great teams. Sure the Big 12 can be "tough" at times, but has it ever been "great"?

@JayHawkFanToo Better numbers during summer play are good and all, but to me it's more about the roles they can fill. Lucas isn't going to supplant Ellis, Alexander, or Traylor, so his competition is with Mickelson. Unless Lucas has developed some rim protecting abilities, I don't think much else matters.

I think he could be ready to contribute under different circumstances, but because of the roster composition I just don't think this will be the year for him. I say this because I think we will need Mickelson more than Lucas because of Mick's rim protecting ability (assuming that translates from his freshman year at Arkansas). We know Ellis & Alexander are going to play and likely are the two starters. Traylor should continue to get minutes as he has progressed nicely during his time here and could actually be somewhat of a force this year (i.e. someone we could actually run offense for coming off the bench). But all three of those guys are power forwards, and we know Ellis & Traylor aren't rim protectors. Alexander figures to play a bit taller than those two, but it's doubtful he'll be a defensive stopper as a freshman. So Self will likely need to turn to Mickelson if we need a boost to the interior defense. If there was an Aldrich/Withey/Embiid on the roster then Landen might be in a better position, but with three non-shot blockers ahead of him the final post spot/remainder of any significant minutes likely goes to Mickelson.

@DoubleDD Sorry I'm just now getting over here and roaming around the new site. Stopped in over the weekend, took one look, and decided I didn't have the time or focus to get my bearings over here and would return when I was able to give it more attention.

All that being said, no worries brother. It didn't "hurt my feelings". I mean, it's just a sports site with a bunch of (mostly) anonymous fans, and nothing you said was a personal attack. My only quibble was that you might indeed wish to rephrase, as a dismissive approach isn't constructive to furthering the conversation. As I put it then, if I don't think you care, why would I engage you in conversation? Regardless, I appreciate the clarification.

I've continued to straddle the line on this issue. I'm not overly in favor of it, even while trying to maintain an objective, unbiased point of view. I do, however, understand much of the argument to make the trade. The window of opportunity to win in James' prime, the desire to pull out all of the stops to win just that one championship that has eluded the city of Cleveland for 50 years, the trade-off of the proven commodity vs. that of the potential prospect, etc. I would want to see what I have with Wiggins. Give me 20 or 30 games with him to see how this group meshes. But, if I was the Cavs GM and you put a gun to my head, I'd make the trade.

And to @JayHawkFanToo, to the question of which is the more successful franchise, you'd have to say the Heat wouldn't you? In the 4 years since they "bought" their team of the Big3, they made 4 straight NBA Finals, winning 2, going 1-1 against the Spurs. Now over the past 10-15 years, obviously the Spurs. They have 5 titles in the post-Jordan era. But the Heat have 3. Nothing to shake a stick at. The Lakers have 5. Were their teams bought or built? Or a combination?

It's more fun to experience a championship when your team has more "home-grown" talent. But I think it is extremely difficult to try and build. So many things had to pan out for the Spurs. If they don't win the draft lottery and get to draft Tim Duncan, are we still having this discussion? Would they still have been able to build themselves a 5-time champion?

It is actually, in fact, what makes James the much better player.

@HighEliteMajor I would argue defense is the bigger difference in what makes James that much better. Minor disagreement.

I would agree that Wiggins needs to improve his assist numbers. His time at KU clearly showed that. I wouldn't put too much stock in the low numbers in the summer league. You're playing with a bunch of rookies and second year players, all looking to showcase their skills. It's not exactly the same as having tunnel vision while a wide-open LeBron is cutting to the rim.

What will be interesting to me is if he does in fact get dealt to Minnesota...who is he supposed to be passing to? Is there anybody on that team left (once Love is gone) that would merit giving up the ball? If he winds up there, I wouldn't expect his assists to jump up by that much.

@DoubleDD Thank you for the compliments; I'm glad you enjoy my posts. Likewise, even when we disagree, yours are always welcome. It's nice to have respectful disagreements with others that are able to competently express their side.

You're right - there are definite differences between MLB and the NBA. However, I would argue that the end result is the same. Whether teams can't keep the players that they draft & develop because of financial considerations (such as in MLB where the Yankees, Dodgers, etc. can simply outbid the smaller market teams), or whether they can't keep them because their franchise is not an ideal free agent destination (due to location, bad management, media exposure, etc.), the result is that teams such as Minnesota just can't keep high-end players because they will eventually walk, and thus are forced to trade them for prospects & picks or get nothing for them in return. The CBA attempted to curb this trend by giving players financial incentives to re-sign with their current club - Minnesota can offer more and for more years than any team looking to sign him in free agency. We saw this with Melo & the Knicks. But at the end of the day, some (if not most) have still chosen to walk to a more desirable destination.

I am in 100% agreement with you in that I would also like to see Wiggins suit up for the Cavs, to see how good he is, how good the team is with him, etc. But I also see Cleveland's perspective. What if Wiggins bombs? Then he's no longer as attractive a trade piece. What if he gets injured?

Lastly, while I do enjoy your counterpoints, in saying that you don't care what I say, I read that as you don't even consider an opinion other than your own. That you're so close-minded, it doesn't matter how logical or reasoned another point-of-view is, you reject it out of hand. And if that's the case, why would anyone continue to engage you in conversation? This is an NBA issue so at the end of the day it's not of great importance to me, but when KU basketball season starts won't you wish that your fellow fans and posters here read your posts, respond to them, value your opinions even if they don't fall in line with their own? Maybe you don't care, but that is why I come here - for the debate, to get different perspectives (often from people far more knowledgable than me about the game), etc.

Maybe that's not what you meant, but that's how it reads.

@Bwag There are numerous reasons why there aren't more teams vying to acquire Love in a trade. It's not that every team wouldn't love to have him. Don't let yourself believe that's the case.

First of all, you don't give up what Minnesota is asking for Love if you are not close to a championship. It doesn't make sense if you are rebuilding to trade away prospects & picks. So immediately, the list of teams that are close to being viable championship caliber teams dramatically cuts the list of teams that would reasonably look to acquire Love via a trade down to a handful. Maybe 6 or so.

Second, because so much is required to acquire Love via a trade, an even smaller number of teams already possess the necessary pieces to trade for him while still leaving enough of a talented roster to compete for the championship. This reduces the number of teams further.

Third, because you are going to have to sacrifice so many young pieces to acquire Love, any team willing to do so will likely only agree to a trade if they have certain assurances that he has genuine interest in signing for your team long term. No one wants to sell the farm for a one year rental.

Fourth, Love isn't going to come cheap. He's already making $15.7 million this season and will most definitely command a raise on the open market. So while the monetary value has to be somewhat equal on both sides to trade for him, whatever team that ends up with Love has to make sure they can fit him under the cap next season at an increased figure.

So we see that it's not that other NBA teams aren't interested in having a player like Love on their roster, but rather that so few actually fit all 4 of these criteria. And you're right, Cleveland didn't have interest in Love before LeBron (aka "His Highness" ) signed with them, because they didn't meet the first criteria - they were not going to be a championship caliber team. Adding LeBron instantly made them contenders, at least to come out of the East.

@DoubleDD You're right, it's all a gamble. And as I've said, it's all about playing the odds. I don't assume that trading for Love makes the Cavs a championship team. What I do assume is that it increases the odds. It's not "having it one way", it's objectively assessing the percentages. Heck, there's a chance the TWolves keep Love, they win the championship, and he decides to re-sign with Minnesota. Of course, that chance is very slim. You wouldn't want to gamble on those odds. If you accept that premise, then it's all a matter of what odds you assign to the other various outcomes. And really that's what we're all quibbling over. And it is all subjective; just our opinions. I'd love for the Cavs to give Wiggs a fair shot for 30 games or so to see how this team looks. Right now they seem committed to trading him for Love

As to why you draft, well not every year is a team going to be willing to trade a player the caliber of Kevin Love. Just like not every year is the team with the top pick going to be thrust into the position of competing for the Eastern Conference title. If the Cavs were without LeBron and the title window wasn't open, of course you don't trade Wiggins for Love. But this is the model we see all across sports. Teams that are in rebuilding mode (the TWolves in this case) trading away whatever proven assets they have (Love) in exchange for cheaper, younger, unknown assets (Wiggins, Bennett, draft picks) from teams that are closer to title contention (Cavs). The Royals have been doing this for years, trading away guys like Carlos Beltran or Zach Grienke for unproven prospects. They're finally at a point where they are closer to being buyers than sellers.

@JayHawkFanToo Thanks for clearing up the overseas situation for me. After you brought it up, I do remember reading several things about teams "stashing" Euro players overseas while retaining their rights, either to help them develop or to assist in keeping them under the cap.

And thanks for the link. I don't want to come off as someone who thinks that this is a no-brainer trade. Aside from my personal feelings of not wanting to see Wiggins banished to Minnesota, there's a lot to not like about this trade. Having to give up Bennett, a #1 pick, and probably more players just to make the money work will gut the roster and any roster flexibility the Cavs may have had quickly evaporates. This is to say nothing that I'm not 100% convinced that the Cavs would be appreciably better with Love than they would be with Wiggins & Co.

It's all about risk/reward. And it's all uncertain. It's for everyone to individually decide what those risks are, how likely they are, and if they're worth the reward.

However let me ask you a question or anybody that would like to respond? Years from now and your looking back will you remember that team that sold out their future to win that lone championship, or will you remember that team that protected their future and wins multiple championships?

@DoubleDD The flaw in that assumption is that by keeping Wiggins and "protecting their future" they win multiple championships. Obviously everyone will always remember a team on a multiple championship run versus a team that wins a lone championship. But what if the Cavs keep Wiggins, Love goes to the Bulls, the Cavs come away with zero championships, and the Bulls are the team to win multiple championships? Still think the future was worth protecting then?

As I said, it's about odds. You weigh the odds of scenario A versus scenario B. I think where most people are disagreeing with you is your optimism regarding the odds of Wiggins leading the team to championships. It's certainly possible, but I think it's definitely the longer shot.

@justanotherfan Very well put. While I am a Wiggins fan, think he is going to be a very good (if not great) player, and really my only interest in the whole situation is wanting him to land in the best situation, I simply can't understand the logic of not trying to win a championship because of something uncertain in the future.

At the end of the day, it's about playing the odds. Are the odds ever going to be more in Cleveland's favor than right now? They have the best player in the league with a few years of his prime still left. They have an all-star point guard. They have veterans taking less money to come play with him and try and help win a championship. The east is weak and vulnerable. And they have a chance to add one of the top 10-15 players in the league to that mix. So now you weigh those odds against the odds that not only will Wiggins progress to become a future star, but also that by keeping him you end up with a better team in the future than you have now, and that the east is as ripe for the taking as it is right now. Sure, sometimes the long-shot pays off. But clearly the odds of winning a championship favor the first scenario.

I'll listen to and even make the argument that keeping Wiggins might make the Cavs a better team now, but to keep Wiggins because he might make give them a better chance in the future, well to me that's just not very logical.