🏀 KuBuckets Archive

@HighEliteMajor Greene was awesome, again. And I watched him a lot on defense today. He didn't look too shabby. Definitely not the defensive black hole/liability that he has the reputation for. The only time I got a teensy bit frustrated with him was when he passed up an open 3 (this immediately after having one of his attempts blocked by Ibeh).

And you're right about Self finding the right mix. Oubre didn't really have it today. Selden hit a couple of big 3s and had some nice hustle plays, but Self went with Greene & Graham down the stretch. That's the best late game line-up in my opinion, at least while protecting a lead. Great ball handling & free throw shooting. Graham only cashed in a pair of free throws today for 2 pts, but I still loved having him on the court. I think he runs the team every bit as good as Mason, he provides excellent penetration off the dribble, and his quick hands lead to creating turnovers. And speaking of turnovers, 3? Total? And none from our primary ball handlers? Amazing. How would either of the last two KU squads have finished the year with this kind of PG play?

The other observation I had today was I think Perry was only blocked once, and it was right at the end of the game. I saw someone predicting he'd get it thrown back at least 6 times. Loved seeing that he can still be effective against a much taller front line.

Came across this on espn.com:

Ellis article ↗

Can you imagine seeing an outburst from Perry such as throwing a chair?!?

@HighEliteMajor said:

Sometimes, the best offense against shot-blockers is when they block your shot, then you go get it.

This quote from Self reminds me of the defenders of "bad-Tyshawn", when they'd try and justify his out-of-control drives and wild shots as being good offense because of all the offensive rebound opportunities he was creating. Huh?

I'll ask the question I think many of the us are wondering...where is the redhead from the UT game years ago in your collage @wrwlumpy ? :)

@drgnslayr said:

The smart elite college coach of the future will have the ability to recruit big name talent and keep most of them staying for two years. That's the key... two years!

A much talked about rule change might guarantee 2 years. What do the elite college coaches of the future focus on then?

@truehawk93 I guess I don't know with what being in the doghouse has to do with "earning it". Just because you weren't doing the things you were supposed to do and now you are, it doesn't mean you are any more deserving than the guy who has been doing it right from the the whole time. And secondly, length? For...defense? Length hasn't done him a whole lot of favors in helping him defend adequately.

@HighEliteMajor Well notice I didn't say starting, just that Graham should be the one stealing more of Selden's minutes. I would entertain the Greene starting argument - that he could potentially get some looks early and get hot. It would also allow Self to assess how they are guarding him. Because while you say "best pure scorer", he's incredibly one-dimensional. 75% of his shots are 3s, compared to 33% for Graham. If the opposition game plans to take away his open looks from the outside, he becomes a very pedestrian player. Which is one of the reasons why I like Graham in the first place - the versatility. He can create off the bounce as well as shoot from the outside. And of course his defense, which you say he is "likely" a better defender than Greene. From what I've seen it's not even debatable.

But you are right, how crazy is it to be having the discussion in the first place?

@HighEliteMajor @drgnslayr @JayHawkFanToo and others regarding Wayne. I'm on record as saying I'd replace quite a few of Selden's minutes with Graham. While not the giant leap forward offensively that Greene potentially gives (emphasis on potentially. If his 3s aren't falling, it's really not a step forward at all), it is an upgrade. And it's a more diverse offensive option than Greene. Paired with Mason & Oubre, you'd now have all 3 perimeter players capable of putting the ball on the floor to get their own shot to go along with plus outside shooting from all 3 players.

And to those of you concerned about losing Selden's defense and replacing it with Greene's, Graham is an upgrade from both. He's a freshman so there are the occasional lapses, but by and large he's been the superior on-ball defender to both. And him and Oubre are the best two players on the team at creating turnovers.

And lastly, the kind of no-brainer advantage here is that you get your two best ball handlers in the game.

The only drawback is you lose a bit of height by not going with Wayne or Greene, but where is that really an issue? How many college coaches actually post up their guards? Rarely happens. And having two smaller guards in the backcourt worked out well for the '08 team...

I've said before that the backcourt of Graham & Mason can lead us to a title before they leave Lawrence. We talk a lot about Self needing to play Cliff more because he is clearly the best option. With Graham-Selden-Greene, the choice is not as clear. But once you look past the window dressing of Selden's lofty high school ranking and his NBA body, and once we're done overreacting to one of Brannen's better performances, clarity can be achieved.

@Crimsonorblue22 Yeah, Perry definitely needs the occasional confidence boost. And I think that is what Self was doing in the days prior to the ISU game, talking to Perry through the press. Saying he was just a fraction away from a breakout. That when he's aggressive he's the best player on the court. Etc. And look what happened! It wasn't Self sugar-coating things, but he was very positive about Perry and he goes out and plays well against ISU.

@drgnslayr said:

There is so much more in him and how is he ever going to bring it out? How? By everyone patting him on the back and "encouraging" him?

Maybe. Not everyone is the same. Some respond well to positive encouragement and reinforcement. Others respond better to a kick in the butt. There's probably some good behavioral study data out there that would tell which is generally better (@jaybate-1.0 this seems like something you'd probably know); about which is more likely to be learned behavior: if a guy does good and you give him praise or if a guy screws up and you berate him, which method does the brain learn from better? Part of the problem is that positive encouragement is viewed with such stigma by many in the sports world. Like somehow focusing on the positives equals coddling.

You mention how we feel like parents. I for one wouldn't dream of only coming down hard on my kid. Sure I do it when he deserves it. But I won't taint every positive accomplishment he has by knocking him down a peg; by always attaching a negative to it.

Sometimes a guy just needs to be told "good game", instead of "well, you scored 19 points and grabbed a game high 11 rebounds, but...". Especially if you're ignoring other players who totally crapped the bed just so you can go out of your way to slam the guy. If coach did that after the ISU game, got in the locker room and started in on Perry rather than any of the real problems last night, how do you think that would make Perry feel? Maybe that sounds "soft", having to worry about how a player feels (Naadir Tharpe's "I wondered if coach liked me" comment rings of that), but it doesn't have to be. Guys find ways to tell other guys good job, or that they appreciate them, or respect them, or are impressed by them, in a variety of ways all the time. Guy politics if you will. I mean, if I kicked ass at my job (like Perry did last night by and large) and my boss never did nothing but nitpick me, I'd find another job working for someone who was appreciative of my efforts, and was capable of showing that. Especially if I was the only one treated like that, which seems to be the case often on these boards with Perry (again, the only player mentioned in your post).

So while you may care deeply about all of players, where is your kick in the butt for everyone else? Particularly those that deserved one after last night? That's what makes it feel less like criticism and a kick in the butt for his own good and more like a witch hunt. I guess that's what I take issue with as much as anything.

@JayHawkFanToo I don't think I'd go so far as to call Perry a 3, or say that he should be playing the 3. He's a stretch 4, and should be used as such. I definitely don't think he is playing the 4 out of need. If he was a 3 and we had a stacked front line, Perry wouldn't be playing at all I don't think. He's not a better 3 than Oubre; he's not a better 3 than Wiggins was. And he's not as good as Releford was. Would he play over Brannen, or Svi? I don't know, maybe, but I just don't see him as a 3. Maybe had he been coached and groomed as a 3 in high school and then to begin his college career it would be so.

I think Perry & Alexander could succeed, but they need more height/defense backing them up. Like Shady and Darnell had with Kaun & Cole. And Shady & Darnell were a year further into their college careers than Cliff & Perry (sophomore/senior vs. freshman/junior).

@JayHawkFanToo Yeah I loved your whack-a-hawk picture you made. Good stuff.

As to Perry, I get that maybe he hasn't lived up to everyone's expectations. Part of it is that so many of us followed his pre-KU career for a long time, and just want him to succeed so much that when he stumbles we are overly critical. Kind of like coaching your own kid in little league - we feel we have more of an emotional investment in the guy. So like the parent/coach, we are harder on him than other players. Part of it is the guys who have came before him set the bar very high, particularly the guy who immediately preceded him - TRob. And Perry doesn't fit the same mold as TRob or either of the Morris twins. He's probably the most finesse 4 we've had under Self. Doesn't make him a bad player, but because he doesn't fit our stereotype of the Self 4 man, he routinely gets labeled as soft.

So while Perry is definitely more finesse than other 4s, I'll offer this in his defense - has there ever been a post player paired with a more inadequate front court partner as Ellis has been, or front court teammates even? The only times that compare are Withey being paired with Kevin Young, and Simien his senior year with Christian Moody. TRob had Withey, the Morris twins had each other with TRob off the bench, and prior to that had Cole. Shady and Jackson had each other with Kaun & Cole backing them up. Etc. Perry has an even more so undersized Jamari Traylor, an under-skilled Landon Lucas, afterthought Hunter Mickelson, and another smaller 4 freshman in Cliff that has yet to truly click. He probably hasn't been able to develop good chemistry with any of them.

My hope is that Cliff does finally "get it", and soon. He's the only guy that can help make Perry a better player. He's the only one who can help shoulder some of the load down low that will allow Perry to play more within himself and not trying to carry the torch for our entire post scoring and rebounding.

@drgnslayr Man...Perry is one of the very few bright spots and you still can't help getting in a few digs at the guy. It's starting to feel like a mob mentality on this site with everyone's criticisms of the guy. Not saying the guy is above criticism, but he's the only player to be mentioned in your post by name, once in a negative light (body language), and the other a backhanded compliment (being ready, made mistakes/energy). And I don't mean for this to come off as a personal attack on you. I've seen other posters bash him after last night too. Someone said something to the effect of "yeah he had a good game, but he'll disappear in the next one...". Sorry, that's not verbatim and I'm not gonna track it down, but you get my point. Just think we should hope he keeps that momentum going rather than nitpicking a good performance.

And I don't know that quoting Bilas from last night proves anything, as he repeated said we needed to get the ball inside even though that isn't one of our strengths. Someone else mentioned ESPN referencing our dominant front court. It's like they're using the same old talking points, or just looking down and seeing Perry leading our team in scoring (or being second to Mason, as is now the case) and deciding it must be because we've been so good with our post play. Generally I like Bilas; he calls it like he sees it, especially with the refs when so many of his colleagues parse their words on the subject. But the last couple of years he's become arrogant (or more arrogant) and I think sometimes he acts a bit too much like an ESPN celebrity and perhaps isn't doing his homework as much as he did in the past. Still take him over Vitale!

To your question, I think we know how to win it. Last night didn't shake that too much for me. Not sure why you think ISU is overhyped. It's basically the same team as last year, minus Kane but plus a new crop of transfers. Ames is the second toughest venue in the league, after AFH. In my book Hoiberg is the second best coach in the league. It took 50% shooting at home to beat us by 5. Because it was so close it feels and qualifies as a missed opportunity, but hey...at least they weren't blown out by 30 and don't have to transfer far away :)

@jayballer54 Time to exit stage left. This is the kind of clownish behavior that drove so many posters from kusports.com. You ask "someone please help me understand..." then when someone offered you explanations you were a jerk. And as he said, an explanation with facts and numbers. But you can just keep telling everyone how quiet you thought it was and then begging people to help you understand. SMH...

@REHawk So...are you suggesting a changing of the guard, so to speak? Or just pointing out some good numbers?

Just in the interest of full transparency on the issue - Mason has played 131 minutes in 4 games of conference play; Graham has only played 60 minutes in 3 games.

Regardless, I don't think your post was a slam on Mason as much as high praise for Graham. I couldn't be higher on both of them. Mason's ball handling is fantastic. Remember how Tharpe would get his pocket picked at half court seemingly once every game? Has that ever happened to Mason? Regardless of press or traps or whatever kind of pressure the other team throws at us, I'm just never worried with Frank handling the ball. Of course, Graham is no slouch with the rock either. Everyone see him cross over his defender at the top of the circle, then bury a 3 last night? That was pretty!

Both guys can shoot it from outside, drive to the hoop, and defend. Graham in particular has a such quick hands and is adept at creating turnovers.

I've stated a couple of times that KU's best perimeter line-up includes both of them on the court at the same time (along with Oubre). The challenge for Self going forward will be 1) keeping both of them healthy throughout their careers, and 2) getting both of them enough minutes to keep them both happy. One of my fears is that Self recruits some OAD 2-guard and limits Graham's minutes. In my opinion, Self has his starting back court for the next two years. As @Lulufulu says, this is a back court that can bring us another title. I hope he realizes this. Don't pander to OADs, or to players with higher recruiting rankings (ahem...Selden), get some competent post players, and he'll have his second ring.

@KUinLA said:

First, Selden-- At this point, he's just phoning it in. He's to the point where he realizes Bill's game will do nothing to showcase his talents so he's just gonna bide his time (and not risk injury) and try his luck in the combines next spring. He's already checked out.

Really? Self's game does nothing to showcase Wayne's talents? First of all, I guess I'm curious as to what talents Wayne has that are being stymied by HCBS and his system. Outside shooting? No, that can't be it, as Selden has shot more 3s than anyone on the team. Attacking the rim/dribble drive? No, Oubre & Mason seem to have no problem doing that in Self's system, and the only problem Selden has "showcasing" that talent is that he has routinely clanged dunk attempts off of his own drives. Ball handling/passing/running the offense? No, he was given every opportunity to assume more of a "lead guard" role when Graham went out, yet he has shown to be fairly mediocre. Defense? Thought maybe this was where he could shine, and maybe elevate his game at that end of the floor to that of a lock-down perimeter defender. Instead he's been up and down, with last night being one of his valleys while showing a complete lack of hustle and focus. Leadership? We all thought this could be "Wayne's team". Unfortunately, you have to step up and perform like one. General opportunity? No, despite a crowded perimeter Wayne has played the second most minutes on the team, trailing only Mason.

Really, what skill are you wanting to see that Selden possesses but think he's been denied the opportunity?

Secondly, Selden has had plenty of games where he has successfully showcased the type of player he's capable of being. Against Florida he scored 21. He had a stat stuffer game against Rhode Island where he went for 10 pts, 7 rebs, 4 asts, 2 blks, & 1 stl. The problem has been consistently getting quality performances out of him.

I know your reality is that Self sucks and is the cause of every shortcoming you perceive. I don't worship the guy, and will readily acknowledge his actual failures or voice my concerns with any philosophies/strategies/moves that I disagree with. But I just don't know what logic there is in saying Selden's lack of success is because he thinks he can't succeed in Self's system.

Off the topic of Selden, but I'm not sure how posting the names "Lucas and Traylor" is evidence that Bill is still forcing the inside game. They played 19 & 15 minutes, respectively. Likely would have been less had Perry been able to play more than 7 first half minutes. Lucas attempted no shots, and Traylor attempted 5. Yeah...that stubborn Self. Trying to butter his bread with 5 shots from those guys! Again, no logic behind that. If anything, omitting Perry & Cliff, the two productive post players, and only citing the two that struggled (again, with very limited attempts) only serves to highlight your bias and undermine whatever point you were trying to make by simply saying "Lucas and Traylor".

Losses frustrate me too. But as HEM stated, this wasn't another Temple. ISU is a good team. I had this pegged as a loss going in. No shame in losing on the road to them.

@HighEliteMajor I'd throw Graham in with the good. I think our best perimeter line-up is hands down Mason, Graham, & Oubre.

@drgnslayr They can feel free to NOT be close at the end. If we have a comfortable double-digit lead - that would be fine by me :)

He did grab 8 rebounds, a couple very hard fought. Second on the team, and probably the highest per minute rebounds last night (Mason led the team with 9, but in 10 more minutes of playing time).

@HighEliteMajor Look at it this way - if Self wasn't trying to occasionally pound it inside, we don't have that highlight reel posterization dunk by Cliff on Anthony Allen. Puts a smile on my face every time :)

I love me some Tarik Black (started a tread about his star performance for the Lakers late last night), but I think a lot of this is off the mark. Which isn't to say that Pastner is a good coach, and obviously I think most would agree even if we respect his job performance he is nowhere close to being in the realm of Self, but here's some flaws:

Saying that Black guessed wrong and went to Memphis, as opposed to playing for Self or Coach K for 4 years.. Neither program offered him a scholarship out of high school, and in my quick search it didn't look like either recruited him either. So, based on the fact that he is now a viable NBA player, did Black guess wrong? Or did Self & Coach K guess wrong by not recruiting him out of high school? All of the above? None of the above?

ESPN & rivals recruiting sites show he had offers from Florida, Alabama, Marquette, and maybe Tennessee (rivals lists the Volunteers as having offered him, ESPN doesn't). I don't know the recruiting situations at the time at the other schools that did offer him. At a glance we could make the assumption that Florida and Marquette would have been better choices, based on their successes under Donovan and Buzz Williams. But we also don't know how firm those offers were. Perhaps they were conditional offers that could have been withdrawn if better players committed. KU offers a great many players every year, far more than they would ever have scholarships for (even accounting for showing lesser talent the door). But as players start to commit offers are withdrawn. So maybe Memphis was the best option at the time.

Something else I don't know and would require a great deal of research is the roster compositions at the time Black was deciding where to go. Maybe he would have been buried on the bench at KU, Dook, Florida, or Marquette. As a freshman, Black played 22.6 mpg, starting 24 games. His minutes went up in his sophomore season, and he started 31 games. So playing time was available to him out of the blocks under Pastner. Maybe the same couldn't be said at those other schools. And maybe it was court time at the D1 level that made Black good enough to finally attract Self & coach K. Perhaps we should give him credit for that.

What I don't recall is why at the end of 3 years Pastner was "playing ordinary players instead of Black." Black's junior season saw his mpg drop to 20.8. If anybody remembers there being a mention of this when we were recruiting Black following his junior season or when we landed him feel free to chime in. Maybe Black had some issues, maybe Pastner felt he had recruited better talent to replace him. Maybe Pastner reduced his minutes to develop younger talent. Maybe Black indicated that he would graduate early and would look to transfer after his junior season, prompting Pastner to cut his minutes. Maybe his junior season was when Black got out of control with his fouling, thus reducing his minutes. I don't know.

I think it is important to not ignore the Self/KU factor in Black's NBA endeavors. Don't think that the increased visibility of playing at a school like KU didn't help him land some workouts and looks. I mean, did Self really transform him that much? Was Pastner really that unable to "figure out how to help Tarik Black play successfully in D1"? His per game stats at KU were career college lows: 13.5 mpg, 5.5 ppg, 3.9 rpg (although I did check and the per minute stats show equal or greater production than at Memphis). Playing at KU can open some doors that playing at Memphis can't. And that can't be a knock on Pastner this early in his college coaching career. Aside from maybe his friendship with RC Buford, Self didn't have that kind of pull while at Tulsa (where Self would have been at Pastner's age and at the equivalent point their head coaching careers).

And lastly, I wonder if Black would have had the chance to showcase his talents as much as he did had Embiid not gotten hurt. How much of NBA teams' willingness to give Black a look were based on his late season and NCAA tourney performances? My guess is a lot. He might not have had those same opportunities to showcase his talents more had JoJo been healthy.

While I certainly didn't set out to start the Josh Pastner fan club and so fervently defend the guy, I just can't belittle him so much to think he failed, or "botched it", or that he "sucks" or is in the running for stupidest coach in NCAA history. Maybe we should look at it like this: Black wasn't on Self's radar out of high school. It wasn't until Pastner had him for 3 years that Self (and Coach K) deemed him good enough to contribute at a blue blood program. So maybe we should be thanking Pastner for being just a rung in the ladder of Tarik's basketball ascension...

@JayHawkFanToo True about Spoelstra, although early in his tenure there was a lot of speculation as to whether his job might have been in jeopardy as well. Didn't help (the rumors) to have one of the all-time great coaches sitting in the front office, just a crisis away from deciding to step in to save the day.

I'm curious what the thinking is regarding Spoelstra now. No Lebron and they're 15-21 almost halfway through the season. And if Blatt never figures it out in Cleveland, you have to wonder if that organization will ever hire a coach worth a flip. As much as I'm not a huge Lebron fan, it's almost unfair when he's compared to Kobe and MJ and they had another of the all-time great coaches in Phil Jackson, and Lebron's been saddled with a bunch of stiffs.

Glad to know so many keep tabs on the guys after they leave the Phog! I usually check a couple times per week, whatever games were played that particular night that I know have former Jayhawks on the teams.

Agree about TRob needing to find a different team with more available playing time, although I don't think he's in danger of being out of the league. There was a stretch of games in Novermber and December where he didn't play at all (something like 14 games out of 17). Shortly after that streak, he earned a start due to injury, scored 15 points and pulled down 16 boards and earned a standing ovation from the Portland fans.

Nice to see Wiggins figuring it out at the next level. I also keep tabs a bit on the Cavs, just to see how that experiment is working. So far - not so well. Rumors are Love may very well bolt at season's end. Got to think the Cavs' front office has to be second guessing that trade decision. And when I say the Cavs' front office, I mean their actual front office. Not Lebron, who was undoubtedly influencing the decisions directly if not outright calling the shots. I'm sure he's simultaneously too full of himself to second guess himself all the while creating a narrative to fully deny having any input over the roster moves and placing blame solely on Dan Gilbert and the GM.

So it's 3 in the morning and I can't sleep so I mosey over to the computer and check my Facebook page. On the right hand side of the page under the "trending" box and see Tarik Black's name. I start reading about how he helped lead the Kobe-less Lakers to victory with 14 pts on 4-4 shooting from the field, 6-7 from the line, while grabbing 9 boards in 17 minutes of play, all stats coming in the second half.

To be honest with you, I didn't even know Black had found a soft landing after being let go by the Rockets. Good for him. I did read that the Lakers have until Wednesday to decide whether to keep Black and lock in his contract, or place him on waivers. Ironic that it was the waiving of injured former 'hawk Xavier Henry that the Lakers used to create the roster space for Black in the first place. Here's to hoping Black can continue to impress and stick in the league.

And while I won't run down every Jayhawk in the league, I also saw that Wiggins had an impressive outing with 20 points, 7 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals, and 0 turnovers in a loss to the Bucks. Idk, the 5 assists in particular stood out so I thought it worth mentioning.

@Crimsonorblue22 Yeah I'm happy for Cole. The NBA is all about finding your niche and having the right opportunity, for the non-stars anyway. Cole seems to have found his.

My son is named Cole, so I've always kept the avatar as a sort of homage to him (and no he isn't named after Aldrich. Wish that was the case, but really it's because his mom is a narcissist. Her name is Nicole, so she named him Cole after herself. SMH).

Glad we got this one in the bag. Even though most of me didn't believe it possible, a small part of me would wake me up out of a deep sleep in a panic thinking about @HighEliteMajor 's recruiting apocalypse.

I'm kind of torn on whether I'd want the rumored package deal including Brown and Ingram or not. For starters, why would two guys who play the same position (Brown & Ingram are both listed as small forwards) commit to the same school as part of some package deal? Seems odd. Also, I like our perimeter guys now, and next year we should be good there even if Oubre leaves. If he returns it could be a special group, similar to RussRob, Chalmers, Rush, & Collins (the gold standard for a perimeter rotation, IMO). And lastly, using 2 schollies on any combination of perimeter players seems unwise at this point.

However, I can envision a scenario (or combination of scenarios) wherein signing Brown & Ingram is a good move. Call it the "perimeter apocalypse".

1. Oubre leaves. Wouldn't shock anybody if this happens, maybe the most likely domino to fall.

2. Svi goes back overseas. I don't think this is likely, but remember how smooth the guy looked early on? And now his PT has vanished. Probably just due to Self's shrinking rotation, but just for the "apocalypse's sake", maybe Self has a notion that this is a real possibility, and therefore has decided against developing him further. Even if this doesn't explain his vanishing minutes, it could still be in the cards.

3. Brannen's defense never improves. I'd like to think that by year 3 the guy would be at least a servicable defender, but even if that's the case...is that good enough? One thing that has defined some of Self's better teams is that excellent wing defender. If Oubre and Svi both leave and Greene is the de facto starter next year, can we think of a weaker defender at the 3 that Greene during Self's tenure?

4. Wayne never regains the explosiveness following his knee injury. So maybe Greene is a mediocre-at-best wing defender, we still have Wayne right? I like to think he has the height and skills to eventually become a lock-down defender. Well it's possible he never recovers to the point that he can be the stopper we need against elite wings.

So given these conditions, our perimeter rotation would be Mason & Graham (very good there), Selden, & Greene. Not horrible, but given this I could see Self bringing in OAD Brown in hopes that he provides an upgrade over Greene, and stashing Ingram away for a more long-term solution.

I still think the more prudent use of schollies is to continue stockpiling bigs, with my personal preference being Zimmerman due to his height, with Diallo or Rabb being smaller but very nice consolation prizes. Now how Self convinces more bigs to come if Alexander stays and Ellis back and Bragg coming in, we'll see.

Regarding Ellis, another musing from my own roster apocalypse scenarios: Ellis may be in line to graduate in 3 years. I don't know if this is the case, I just know he's very smart (high school valedictorian I believe). But if he is, he then has the option to go the Tarik Black route and transfer without having to sit out a year. Now what if Gregg Marshal tells him he'll feature him in his offense, maybe even play him at the 3. Any coach could entice him, I just use Marshal as an example because he'd love nothing more than to stick his thumb in the eye of KU. And while it seems unlikely, I never thought I'd see Self show the door to a would-be senior until last year with Tharpe.

Anyway, yay Bragg! :)

@konkeyDong Looks to be some guy who comments on the kusports.com site. Some silly back-and-forth going on over there. Every time I check that site I tell myself not to scroll down to the comments. When I do I am always disappointed - in humanity and in myself.

Great thread. Thanks @MoonwalkMafia.

I'm with everyone else regarding Tharpe. I understand your point about past teams and their swagger, but Tharpe wasn't a bridge to them simply because he played with some of those guys. To be a bridge you have to bring some of that over. Tharpe didn't last year. Maybe he would have this year, but I doubt it. And as @HighEliteMajor said, if Tharpe stayed we wouldn't have landed Graham. As a freshman, Graham looks to be more skilled and have that swagger. Him and Mason both have it. I shudder to think of where this team would be if Tharpe was still here blocking Mason of his playing time.

I think it's too early to write off Howard as being a one-trick pony. Or to write off the current staff in general as not being able to develop bigs. They haven't had the raw materials yet to make that judgement. You say Danny turned "average" post players into giants and lottery picks. I'm curious who you are referring to as these "average" players. None of the bigs Danny developed into pros were 3-star players. Darnell may be the most "average" player you're referring to, but he was a 4-star, mid-50s ranked player coming out of high school. Shady was a 5-star. The Morris Twins, TRob, and Withey 4-star mid-30s ranked. Cole was a McD's all-American. Danny didn't have to make due with the Landon Lucases and Jamari Traylors of the world. When this staff has a stable 4-star mid-30 guys to work with, I think then we can pass judgement. Right now, we just have Ellis. And Cliff. Even if Ellis doesn't meet our expectations, or make it in the league, one player is not a sufficient sample size. I think most of us think Cliff is more of a lock for the league regardless of when he comes out or how much he develops this year.

So this really goes back to something you mentioned and others have pointed out in the past, and that is the OAD merry-go-round. It's difficult to judge a staff's ability to develop talent when that talent is only around for a year. They get no credit for JoJo. If Cliff leaves after this year, they'll get little-to-no credit for him. But when those types of players are mainstays in the starting line-up, it becomes more difficult to recruit the players ranked 20-50, Danny's bread and butter as far as developing players.

@Crimsonorblue22 Well, really I can't think of why the guy would lie to try and impress me. I don't have any influence in any arena, nor am I in a position to grant any kind of favors. But ya never know with people; sometimes they just like to feel big so they make up fish stories.

I'm inclined to think it's true. I think if he is in Self's doghouse it would almost certainly be from his on-court effort and performance. I can't see Perry struggling with his classes, getting a DUI (Brady), interferring with a police officer (Jamari), etc. My younger brother lives in Lawrence and never sees him out partying or hears about any extra curricular nonsense.

So following that train of thought - that he is in the doghouse and it's due to effort/execution in games and/or practices - then we can assume he is in Self's "toughening box". Self knows he needs Perry; he doesn't have enough better options to banish him to the end of the bench. So it's different than say...Brannen being in Self's doghouse. Self can make due without Brannen, but we can't have a successful season without Perry. So maybe Self harkened back to how he turned laid-back California Withey into stank-face Withey, and decided it's worth a shot. Idk if it will work, but my guess is he's taking the Christmas break period to try a different approach (pushing different buttons, as @drgnslayr would say).

As a Wichita native and resident, as well as a Heights alum and just general fan of the guy, I'm rooting for Perry to have as much success as possible. But there's no ignoring his struggles or shortcomings. I think not having a legitimate 5 playing alongside him hurts as much as anything. Perry's not a guy who can own the paint. But put him with a Cole Aldrich, Jeff Withey, Joel Embiid and he can be very effective. Put him with Landon Lucas and Jamari Traylor...defenses can focus on him. Game plan for him. And he becomes very mediocre.

A little bit of "take it for what you think it's worth" info, but according to a guy I know who talks to Perry's high school coach (Joe Auer), apparently whenever Perry returns home to Wichita they touch base and Auer will make the high school gym available to Perry. Within the last week they got together and Auer told Perry he looked flat during one of the games recently (could be either the Lafayette or Temple games, or both) and asked what gives. Perry allegedly told the coach that he had gotten into Self's doghouse and Self made him run the steps (the Withey treatment) and that he simply didn't have any legs for the game.

Again, take it for what it's worth. Hearsay. Rumor. Whatever. It wouldn't surprise me if it was true, or it wouldn't surprise me if the guy was blowing smoke to try and impress me with his "insider knowledge".

@ralster I think it is premature to project many of the players on this year's roster into the roles of those on the 2012 roster. Mickelson into a 2012 Withey role? Again, one decent game. Against Lafayette. Oh, and a promising freshman season 3 years ago at Arkansas. Withey was conference defensive POY and set a Big 12 record for blocks in a season. Cliff into the TRob role? TRob was national POY runner-up that year. Not sure Cliff would ever achieve that even if he stayed 3-4 years, let alone this year.

The point I'm making is that if we tried to emulate the 2012 runner-up team we would be doing so with inferior talent, and I'm guessing it would be met with inferior results. I do agree we would have a better bench, but if they aren't good enough to start, then now you are replacing the inferior pieces you have emulating the 2012 with players not good enough to dispace those inferior pieces. Basically, I'd take 36 minutes of TRob and 4 minutes of Kevin Young over 26 minutes of Alexander and 14 minutes of Perry.

Again, if trying to emulate the 2012 team.

And really, that harkens back to the argument that HEM and many others have made, and that is to maximize this squad's potential we would be better served to change our approach to highlight the talents on the perimeter (i.e. playing outside-in) rather than trying to force the talent on this year's team to be more like the traditional inside-out 2012 team.

Good points by @HighEliteMajor and @ralster. Ellis is not a 3. I would say he is smaller than any of the 4s we're comparing him too. Remember, it's not simply a matter of height. As someone once said on here, you don't guard with your forehead. Perry certainly has a smaller wingspan and standing reach than his predecessors at the 4. And he's thinner. Any "Hudyization" has not transformed him into a bruiser. I think the fact that despite his listed 6'8" he is not prototypically built like a Self 4 may contribute to the reasoning some fans want to cast him as a 3. But as HEM says, he simply is not a 3.

While I agree with a great deal of the analysis and criticism, I still think it's an overreaction. 2 bad games? I'd argue it was simply 1 bad game anyway. The Lafayette game he was reportedly ill, and we didn't need him. Other players carried the torch, which was good as players like Oubre and Mickelson needed the touches more than Ellis did. Sometimes there's only so much to go around, even in a 96 point showing. So really we're just piling on him for the Temple game, and the Kentucky game, and last year's Stanford game. And has been pointed out, for the system that is trying to force Perry into a go-to role as a TRob/Marcus 4.

To anyone pining for Ol' Roy, what's his record against Self? What's UNC's record this year? Maybe it's that people want '97/'03 Roy back. Good luck with that.

Much as I asked that people not go overboard after the Lafayette win (I think some were stitching Hunter's name & number on banners), we also shouldn't overreact to one loss, no matter how ugly, that was on the road two days after the Lafayette game. I don't disagree with some of the analysis, I just think some of the emotional reaction is over-the-top and unjustified.

@drgnslayr It wasn't just you; it was/is/has been over the top on the Oubre thread.

I agree about your wasted depth. I just wonder if he is a legitimate option, or if yesterday was more of what Self calls "fools gold".

We've had entire threads dedicated to what Self says and has already stated. The double talk. His mastery of the press. So does Self saying Hunter is a legitimate option make it so? If he is, why are we only seeing it now, against Lafayette? We take Self's words with his actions, and his actions have shown a general distrust to plug in Mickelson against anything resembling a quality opponent thus far. Maybe this is the spring board. Just count me as a skeptic - someone trusting the actions of Self thus far rather than what he tells us.

I'm not opposed to encouraging players for good performances. Heck, I'm not by any means saying I wish Hunter would have stunk up the joint yesterday. I'm glad he played well. But I'm just saying let's see it again, more consistently, and against stiffer competition before we start projecting him as a starter, as Jeff Withey or Joel Embiid, as someone who can be counted on in March. Also, the Cole comparison is not really a good parallel, as Cole was a freshman playing behind 2 seniors and Shady, all of whom have gone on to have pro careers. Mickelson is a redshirt junior who has thus far been playing behind Landon Lucas. I think we all knew that Cole would shine when it was his turn and he was given the opportunity. I can't say I know that about Mickelson just yet.

@drgnslayr Posted this reply on another thread, but had to post it here too:

Wow. One decent game against Lafayette and people are crazy jocking Mickelson. @ralster even suggests he moves into the starting line-up and Ellis moves out.

And I think Self has a quick hook and overreacts to things at times...

Reel it in. The Oubre praise is a little more deserved. He had been making strides previously, against real competition. The expectations were that he could step in for Wiggins. For Hunter, one game against an undersized front line doesn't do much to move my expectation needle for him other than maybe he has finally done enough to overtake Lucas in terms of minutes. Maybe.

Now in your intro you try and discredit such comments that like to invalidate performances against inferior competition by saying it's Christmas time and thus there are distractions. To that I would say it was Christmas time for Lafayette too. Circumstances don't just affect our team. It's more convenient for us to believe that Lafayette was playing above their heads when they cut the lead to 8 in the second half.

I guess I could buy that Mickelson was finally stepping out of the shadows if he was a freshman. If his early struggles were just a product of him getting acclimated to the physical rigors of the college game. But he's not a freshman. He played 2 years at Arkansas. He was able to practice all of last year in Self's system. I just have a hard time thinking that it's finally clicked for him, and that now he can be counted on against Big 12 level competition. It would be great if it's true. We could use him. But before I jump on the believe in Hunter bandwagon, let me see him do it against a more worthy opponent.

Wow. One decent game against Lafayette and people are crazy jocking Mickelson. @ralster even suggests he moves into the starting line-up and Ellis moves out.

And I think Self has a quick hook and overreacts to things at times...

Reel it in. The Oubre praise is a little more deserved. He had been making strides previously, against real competition. The expectations were that he could step in for Wiggins. For Hunter, one game against an undersized front line doesn't do much to move my expectation needle for him other than maybe he has finally done enough to overtake Lucas in terms of minutes. Maybe.

@HighEliteMajor Drat! Caught on a proper name. Oh the humanity!

And yeah, the spoon thing fits. I was just wondering if maybe you watch the games in digital rain looking code.

@joeloveshawks When making wishes for the PG spot, my first and foremost wish is that Graham makes a full & speedy recovery.

@jaybate-1.0 said:

I always remember the big red head some years ago that also was getting his architecture degree. What an awesome person he appeared to be!!!

Matt Kleinman

@HighEliteMajor Last season it was the red pill - blue pill post. Now the spoon. Morpheus? Neo? One half of the Wachowski brothers?

@HighEliteMajor Again, I agree with most of your point. I want more 3-point attempts. My only issue with your post was the characterization that our "pounding it inside" was what nearly cost us the game. In all of the points you make you neglect to mention that we gave up 21 points in the first half, 39 in the second half. If you were that impressed with us scoring 39 in the first half due to outside-in offense, you half to be equally disgusted with us giving up 39 in the second half.

@HighEliteMajor I agree with the vast majority of your post. However, I think you are misinterpreting yesterday's game to make your point.

Without re-watching the game (which I might have time for tomorrow), did we really "pound the ball inside" yesterday in the second half? Ellis finished with 7 shots, 4 of which were shot in the first half. Lucas with 2 shots, 1 in each half. Alexander with 2 shots, 1 in each half. Traylor with 8, 4 of which were in the first half. (all info gathered from the play-by-play on espn.com). That's our post players, and that's what I think of when someone says "pound it inside". It's true there were some drives by perimeter players - Selden, Mason, Oubre - that resulted in some misses at the rim, but I want that from our perimeter players (the drives anyway, wish they'd finish a few more. Ahem...Selden...ahem). I think most of us have lamented the lack of dribble penetration in Self's teams; that we feel our perimeter guys have been too outside shot heavy (Xavier springs to mind with this criticism). I'm actually excited that we have some guys that can get to the tin and create offense off the bounce.

I do want more 3 attempts and an offense designed to create those attempts, but I don't think it was clear instructions to pound it inside that nearly cost us the game yesterday. Poor defense on Wright, not scheming more for Perry, and turnovers were all culprits I'd rank above trying to play inside-out as reasons for the near collapse. The defense part in particular was the single biggest reason, leading me to question your assessment of this team as "dominant" defensively. They've shown flashes, it's true. But they had one guy in double figures. When one guy can almost single-handedly erase a 20 point lead, well it's not dominance. Maybe just a bad half defensively by Wayne, but I'd also hope we could come up with something to stop that.

@HighEliteMajor said:

Between Selden and Svi, we can cover the Graham minutes. Mason will be playing more, of course. It is the hand we are dealt. It can make us better.

One thing this does is it can help Self find more minutes in the Oubre/Greene/Svi PT triangle. Even if Self goes strictly with Selden in the back-up PG role (similar to EJ in '12 backing up starting PG Tyshawn) now there are at least a handful more minutes available at the 2. That byproduct is the silver lining that we can take from this. Otherwise, losing Graham hurts. We are not a better team without him.

And I say going strictly with Selden because that is what I feel is most likely. It is the only thing we've both heard him talk about and actually seen. Also, Svi has been losing minutes at his primary positions on the wing. Expecting Self to have confidence in him at a new position that he likely hasn't practiced at as of yet is doubtful. And to me that's the key - what will they practice to cover the Graham minutes? The bulk of practice time will likely see Mason at the point, as per usual. Running a second unit with Selden at the point is likely Self's contingency plan. How much time does that really leave to practice Svi there?

I'd like to see Svi there; I think you're spot on with your analysis of his abilities. But will Self see that as a viable option, and actually take the steps necessary to implement it? Count me as a skeptic.

P.S. As ridiculous as the Jamari PG scenario is, I'd still take it over having Tharpe back there (sorry, someday I'll stop piling on the guy)

Here's my amateur analysis of the game:

1. Kind of disappointed in Selden. With the exception of the Florida game, it seems that every time he gets a little momentum going and I expect a Florida-esque performance from him he just takes two steps back. Two games in a row he failed to finish a dunk, leading me to wonder if the knee injury has permanently zapped some of his hops from him. More than anything, I thought he was supposed to ascend to be our lock-down defender, yet he let Delon Wright almost single-handedly make it a close game. At least in other games that he's struggled in one area (usually his scoring) he's made up for it in other areas. Yet no rebounds and only 2 assists today (one was real pretty though on that bullet pass to the post).

2. A mixed bag with Ellis. I was impressed with his defense, and I thought he grabbed a couple of "man's" rebounds today. His offense carried us early. Then...? Without re-watching, I can't tell if we just stopped running offense for him or if he just quit looking for his shot or if Utah just did that good of a job containing him, but we can't go that long without him scoring.

3. As was mentioned earlier, welcome back Jamari Traylor! And I don't mean welcome back from the 1-game suspension, but welcome to the '14-'15 season! We don't win today without that performance.

4. The evolution of the Oubre/Svi/Greene PT triangle. This will likely intrigue me all season. It keeps moving towards Oubre and away from Svi. Hard to argue with the progress Oubre has shown, and I know Svi played pretty poorly against Georgetown, but a part of me wonders if Svi isn't going to be buried because Self has done the risk analysis of losing each player and Svi is the less likely to bolt. In short, Self knows that short of Svi returning to Europe, he has Svi for 2 years. If he buries Greene or Oubre, a transfer would be likely. And while Oubre is obviously talented, there's always the OAD pandering factor that one has to wonder about.

Specific to this game, if Greene isn't hitting his 3s, he's really only valuable as a late game free throw shooter. Which is nice; he was definitely clutch (along with Jamari!). Svi didn't do much to impress, but didn't look as lost as he did against Georgetown either. Oubre played well I thought, but not enough to garner a ton of separation from the other two.

Stay tuned...

1. Mason. He has his Tyshawn moments. At times he leaves his feet without knowing what he's going to do with the ball. But I can't tell you how nice it is to watch the games and NOT see Tharpe at the point! I know that might seem mean-spirited, but it's night and day. It's the opposite of being spoiled with Frank - after wanting solid PG play for so long, I never take his competence or effort for granted. I did, however, miss Graham today. Hope he gets healed soon. Love his game too!

2. Rough game for Cliff, although his rebounds per minute continue to be a big plus. He'll be fine.

3. Overall, I thought we should have shot more 3s. As I expect to be the case throughout the year, we struggle against taller front lines. At least today we only struggled to score, whereas they didn't really punish us on the other end by scoring a bunch with their bigs.

A week off before a game against Lafayette, with a quick turnaround at Temple. Hopefully a good week of practice will sharpen the fellas up! Rock Chalk!

@wrwlumpy Glad we got that Jamari back. The one we saw more consistently last season. If we'd gotten the Jamari back that we've seen all of this season, we probably lose today. With our offense sputtering, his 13 points were huge.

@JhawkAlum Welcome to the site new guy! Impressive accuracy on your prediction.

I'm interested too to see how the team looks without Devonte. Mason appears to be the best conditioned guy on the team and can probably play 36 minutes or more every game like he did tonight, but it takes away Self's ability to swap him out if/when he is struggling. It does give us a chance to see the much talked about Wayne at the point scenarios. He was OK today in the limited minutes there.

Overall I hate that the guy is hurt because I love his game! Hopefully he is able to take as much time as is needed to fully recover and he isn't rushed back into action, but we have a lengthy history of Self expecting guys to play through injuries, so I'm not holding my breath.

@drgnslayr I have to disagree with you regarding the past being irrelevant. At least to an extent. Here's why: when Roy left, there was obviously some anxiety about the future of the program, but we knew we'd be able to attract a top-tier coach. When Self leaves, it will be the same. It's a premier job. When Pitino leaves/retires, I think we can all agree that Louisville will be all right. Even if they swing and miss a time or two, they will eventually get it right. The same cannot be said when Marshall leaves Wichita State. That's one of the things that tradition buys you - a little more leeway in the present & future.

You also mention how Louisville came from the MVC. So did KU, KSU, OSU, Nebraska, Iowa, Misery, etc. So what? The conference is garbage now, especially with Creighton being the most recent to jump ship. The Shockers' affiliation with the Valley is just one of multiple reasons why sustaining their current level of success is going to be a steep up-hill battle. I agree the Big 12 sucks as well, but not to the level of the Valley. Not even close. I'd put my money in Lawrence every day before I bet on Wichita. To me that's the most baffling part of your post, how you say we will never compete against Kentucky, yet you somehow want to put WSU on level with us?

@drgnslayr Agree 100% on us needing a rival. But going down that road only gets me infuriated at the Big 12 for not adding Louisville back in 2011, and I'm already pretty ticked at the conference over the whole college football playoff narrative. Bob Bowlsby and his "It's clear that we were penalized for not having a postseason championship game. It would have been nice to have been told that ahead of time." Moron. How did he not know? Everyone else knew in advance that was going to come back and bite us. Typical Big 12. Reactive rather than proactive. Anyway, I digress...

WSU & Misery would be band-aids on the rivalry front. I think you overestimate how big the games would be when you say it would be similar to UK/UL. Misery has a century plus of showing us they can't hold up their end of the bargain. And a handful of good seasons don't prove WSU belongs in the conversation either. Maybe we can keep things going with Florida and/or Michigan St. That's my hope until the next realignment shake-up, or the NCAA dissolves, or whatever the next thing is that changes the landscape.

@HighEliteMajor I think you mean to say "YOU'RE still chicken."

Regardless, if you believe that, you've been drinking a little bit too much of what Shocker & Misery fans have been ladling out. And it sounds ridiculous and immature.

Given the events in Ferguson & New York, now really isn't the time to be "interfering with duties of an officer." That's the scariest part to me.

@wrwlumpy The article on KU sports says Coleman was arrested on the battery charge, Jamari on a charge of "interfering with duties of an officer."