@RockChalkinTexas Was talking to my brother about BMac being back in Lawrence last night. I think it is great that he comes back. He could work on his degree anywhere - close to Sacramento, closer to his mom (not sure if she still lives in Missouri, hopefully he got her out of that state with his rookie money!), online, etc. - but I think it says a lot about him coming back to do it at KU. Shows that he was really invested during his time here, even if it was only for a short while. I know there's a lot of moaning about OADs and players that leave early, and a yearning for the 4 year guys that fans feel they can develop more of a connection with, but I'm very happy we were able to enjoy watching this young man play one year donning the crimson & blue. He's definitely a big part of the Jayhawk family!
Word from my younger brother who lives in Lawrence says the word on the street (and by word on the street I mean the college bars) is that AW3 is looking to transfer to...Wichita St.! Not exactly insider info mind you, but who knows.
Also, BMac is in town and is allegedly throwing a party at one of the clubs. 50 cent beers I'm told. Ah...to be young and living in Lawrence.
@HighEliteMajor You can't fully blame the Wiggins signing here. He obviously couldn't beat out Greene, and Self has told him it was questionable for him to break into the rotation this season, meaning Self doesn't think he can beat out Oubre. I think you hit the nail on the head earlier, in that Self obviously didn't care for his game.
In this respect, maybe Wiggins coming has done AW3 a favor. Rather than have him get his hopes up for one season (which would have been a bench role just judging by Greene getting the minutes last year) and stay on while Self continues to recruit over him and possibly never see that kind of playing time again, now he gets to go somewhere else. A fresh start with 2 years eligibility left.
You're right in that we'll never know what he could have done with more opportunities. But we know that even with the opportunities he did get, even when he succeeded, they apparently didn't impress Self enough to give him more.
I'll definitely continue to follow and root for this kid. I do wish it had worked out for him here, but as numerous fans have said (both you & I included) this was the best thing for him.
@ralster I certainly remember Vaughn as seeming more timid, so I looked again at the stats to see if maybe his shooting was at a lower volume (meaning perhaps his 3pt shooting was inflated because he was extremely selective). However, that didn't seem to be the case. Both players averaged 2.2 attemps/game over the course of a 4 year career. Vaughn making 105 of 274, RussRob making 96 of 296. Vaughn also seemed to be very good at penetrating the lane. Not Sherron good, but I have a few memories of him driving to the rim and scoring that way. And of course, he was very adept at driving and creating scoring opportunities for others.
To your point about RussRob's stats, it almost seems to be a counter argument to the whole Self guard philosophy you are advocating here. On the one hand, you are saying (or Self has said and you are relaying) that we want do it all guards. That we want to be able to score from all 5 positions. Ok, I'm with you. But why then would Self tell RussRob, who is coming out of high school as a legitimate scoring threat (22 ppg, top 30 player), to subvert his own looks? Why wouldn't Self have cultivated that scoring prowess out of RussRob at the lead guard position?
If I were to hazard a guess here, it would be that RussRob's offensive game did not translate as well to the college game as hoped, at least not as well as the other two perimeter players he was teamed with - Chalmers & Rush. Perhaps there just weren't enough looks to go around, so RussRob was asked to defer to the higher percentage play. This too may be the case of Vaughn, who played with even greater offensive players (in my opinion anyway) - Pierce & Lafrentz - and thus deferred to them.
All this is just a little devil's advocate on my part, to perhaps challenge the perception that Vaughn, more of a true point guard, couldn't flourish in Self's system. That maybe his skill set wasn't as limited as we remember, at least not in comparison to someone (in this case RussRob) whom we generally acknowledge as a Self combo guard success.
And I do know that there is a lot of talk about the desire for improved guard play on this board and others. I myself have said that poor PG play has severely limited the past two teams. I don't yearn for Vaughn anymore than I yearn for Collins or senior year Tyshawn or Aaron Miles, or even Adonis Jordan. Or yes, Russell Robinson. Just someone better than what we've had recently.
@ralster I agree with everything you said regarding Self's guard philosophy. But...
I'm not sure what spawned your Jacque Vaughn rant either. It isn't anywhere on this thread other than you bringing it up. The only place on any recent thread his name came up was in a conversation slayr & I were having on another thread as possibly the last great PG to wear a Jayhawk uniform. Aaron Miles name was also thrown out there, and slayr ultimately said his favorite all around guard was Hinrich. My point of view was that Collins was probably the closest we've had to "great" for awhile, and had his senior year not been marred by the UNI loss we would all likely consider him as great. Maybe some people do consider him great, or they might consider RussRob great, or Tyshawn. I personally think those were all very good PGs, but would stop short of bestowing the title of "great" on them.There wasn't necessarily any "yearning" going on, other than our yearning to have another great one.
The other thing that I might have a disagreement with is your characterization of Vaughn. It is true Vaughn was pass-first point guard, but he wasn't a pass only PG. Consider Russell Robinson, who most posters (myself included and I'm guessing you as well) consider to be one of Self's better combo guards. Now stack him up against Vaughn. RussRob finished his career averaging 7.1 ppg. His high was 9.3 his sophomore year. Vaughn averaged 9.6 ppg, with a high of 10.9 ppg his junior year. So not a whole lot of difference there, as neither were prolific scorers. Vaughn shot a significantly higher percentage than RussRob, both from 2pt FGs (49.6% vs. 46.6%) and from 3pt range (38.3% vs. 32.4%). So when you say Vaughn was a limited player in the context of being a scoring threat, I would argue RussRob was even more limited in that respect. Now, where the two greatly differ is that Vaughn was extremely adept at getting his teammates involved (assist numbers dwarf RussRob's) while RussRob was the far superior defender (one of the elite IMO).
I don't know, just seems like you kind of flew off the handle for no reason about this one.
@drgnslayr Man...Hinrich! He spent a year playing the point didn't he? Good call my friend!
I don't think a PG has to carry us to a NC to be considered great. I couldn't punish a great PG because he had great teammates.
Aaron Miles was pretty close I think. A true point guard. And I think Collins was pretty close. Had his senior year not been marred by the UNI upset, I think we'd be talking about him. He willed the '09 team to a conference championship and a sweet 16, and had that '10 poised to do much greater things.
@drgnslayr You don't think maybe the '12 runner up team had a mission? With TRob coming back after such a tragedy-stricken season the year before? With so many guys finally getting their chance to start & shine after sitting on the bench (Withey & EJ) & redshirting (Releford)? I think that team has to be at least considered to be in the conversation.
As I stated last week, I think Self should really be focusing any recruiting efforts on next year's class. Unless there's a coaching change (Calipari rumors started swirling again once D'Antoni was fired) and a top tier level talent decommits, there isn't anyone we're going to bring in that can help us next year. Why keep beating the bushes to find someone to fill the scholarship when in all likelihood the only caliber of player available will be, as HEM states, a Milton Doyle type?
Unless I'm mistaken, we'll have no seniors on the roster next year now that Naadir has decided to transfer, so any scholarships for '15 will come in the form of early draft entrants and/or player transfers. Given that, I would prefer them to just bag the schollie so we at least have one guaranteed for '15.
If we were to bring a low caliber player in, I would hope it would be made abundantly clear to that player that the scholarship is for one year only. Granted, all scholarships are on a one year renewable basis, but the reality is if Self brings in a Milton Doyle type that player will be gone the following year. The only reason then for said player to come, use a year of eligibility while sitting the bench, then have to sit out a year transferring would be to have his basketball credibility laundered, so to speak (see Merv Lindsey).
It's been a long time since Kansas had a GREAT PG
@drgnslayr Curious who you think our last great PG was. I have an idea in my head, but I'll keep it to myself until I hear who you're thinking of.
@konkeyDong I read an article on Grantland recently entitled "DataBall". Here's the link:
http://grantland.com/features/expected-value-possession-nba-analytics/ ↗
It is a pretty interesting read on something I figure you'd enjoy. And I think you're right, that getting a "brain builder" to analyze advance statistics and data could be hugely beneficial to the program. It might be the next jump in the evolution of college coaching. I think Brad Stevens was scratching the surface of this at Butler.
One final thing though, since you're a self-proclaimed numbers guy, here's a quote from the article mentioned:
"It’s hard not to improperly elevate the role of “big data” in contemporary sports analyses, but romanticizing them is dangerous. Data are necessarily simplified intermediaries that unite performances and analyses, and the world of sports analytics is built upon one gigantic codec that itself is built upon the defective assumption that digits can represent athletics."
Just a friendly reminder not to discount or ignore the eye test or analysis that is rooted in common sense simply because we can't or haven't assigned an empirical value to it.
@ralster @HighEliteMajor Regarding Graham's trey gun, don't expect it to be 40% out of the gate. It has nothing to do with coming to KU, but more with coming to college. Awhile back Jaybate was being critical of Selden & Wiggins 3-point percentages (questioning "how were they ever going to make it in the league?" ), and provided several of the Big 12's sharpshooters as better 3 point gunners. Kane, Forte, Markel Brown, Erron Harris, some others I forget. So I did some research, and in every case the freshman seasons of the players mentioned was significantly worse than their current percentage that earned them such respect as shooters, and in fact Wiggins & Selden were shooting better than all the players mentioned (at the time of the post. Don't hold me to how they finished. Regardless, should be comparable).
So...this year we shouldn't expect the 40% trey gun from Graham, but look for the percentages to improve on guys like Greene, Selden, Frankamp & Mason. I am very excited to see how Graham plays defense.
@HighEliteMajor Assuming Graham plays to his new ranking, I'd take him for 3. If he plays like Tharpe for 3 years...
(sorry to the crowd feeling sorry for Tharpe).
If Graham is truely the 3rd best point guard in the 2014 class after Mundiey and Jones then Its his to lose.
@Statmachine Not necessarily. Graham is #36 on rivals list this year. Last year, Connor Frankamp was #34 on rivals. Doesn't really matter how many players are in front of you at your position; it could just mean it's a weak class for point guards. Doesn't really make you any better than you are. EJ was ranked #24 overall, but was only the 4th best PG in the class (and remember he had to sit two years behind guys like Tyshawn, Brady, & Reed. Nothing was his to lose based on his ranking). It's difficult to compare players from different classes because each class is different. The #1 player one year might only be good enough to be the #8 player another year. What we do know is that CF (as well as Mason) has a year experience in the system, which is why I give them the early nod.
Now the question becomes, what role will Graham, Mason, & Frankamp play? Who starts? Mason & Frankamp have the inside track, simply from having a year of college basketball experience and getting comfortable in Self's system for a year. Frankamp impressed in the tournament. Mason garnered more minutes last season. My guess is the initial battle will be between those two. However, Graham is coming in with with comments made that he is a plus defender. After last season, you know Self is dying to get back to playing tough M2M defense. If Graham can provide that, he may take over the starting spot at some point. My hope is Self finds minutes for all 3, but it will be tough with 3 other perimeter players - Selden, Oubre, & Greene. A 6 man perimeter rotation doesn't seem likely, at least not in terms of "rotation level minutes".
@drgnslayr I just don't think it's likely to find a "premier" big, who has graduated and would be eligible right away. I would be shocked if another person even of Black's caliber was eligible and available again this year.
And if we can't find someone more skilled than what we have, why give the playing time to a less skilled OAD transfer with more experience? It made some sense last year, as we were still relatively young. This next year is different. Jamari, Mickelson, & Ellis will all be juniors. Lucas is a redshirt sophomore. To me the extra year experience a guy has at a lesser university isn't worth sapping playing time from the guys who are here and can give us an extra year or two of service.
@wrwlumpy And that's a year old, from his senior season. I'd be interested in seeing some highlights from last season at Brewster. Thanks for the link. Good looking player.
@drgnslayr Someone more up on recruiting might know, but is there anybody else out there worth getting?
I don't know that anyone out there will be an improvement over Mickelson, Traylor, and Lucas. All have at least one year college experience, and all have at least one year in Self's system. If you're looking for a defensive specialist, they will have to be someone who can trump Mickelson, who has two years playing time in college and one year in Self's system. If such a person were out there, I think we would have heard about him by now.
Honestly at this point, I'd be in favor of bagging the schollie, perhaps rewarding a walk-on with it. Self should be focusing on the 2015 class rather than searching through the scraps of what is left from this year's class. The only exception would be if there's another coaching change (Calipari rumors to the Lakers are swirling again) and someone high-profile de-commits.
@wissoxfan83 Tharpe did have some good games, but for me that's where the comparison ends. He doesn't remind me of Tyshawn at all. Tyshawn has swagger. Tharpe has what HEM has described as a "whipped puppy" demeanor. There is probably something to Tharpe questioning if Self liked him. Consider Self let Tyshawn have the longest leash of anyone during his tenure at KU. I remember the Self quotes about how Tyshawn was a cool kid; how if he was a college student he'd want to hang out with Tyshawn. Tharpe on the other hand was often the victim of the quick hook early in his career, and the victim of Self's wrath on the sidelines this past year. He wasn't nurtured and favored the way Tyshawn was. And maybe that's a huge reason for the difference in demeanor. Whatever the case, Tyshawn had the "it" factor - the confidence, the trust - to lead his teams (remember he looked really good to start his junior year too, then developed some insecurities once Selby became eligible), and I just don't see that in Tharpe. From the Tait article "Tharpe probably was not starting point guard material at this level to begin with."
The other glaring difference between Tyshawn & Tharpe was in their physiques. Tyshawn is long & athletic, which allowed him to be a plus defender. Tharpe is not (infamously described by Jaybate his freshman season as having "short legs" ), which is one reason why he was a detriment on defense. In part because of his physical limitations, I just can't fathom Tharpe "breaking out" his senior season on the defensive end of the court.
BTW, I don't blame you for not reading Keegan. Like I said, the vast majority of the article was garbage!
@wissoxfan83 I read it, and I read Keegan's article. While the Keegan article is pretty awful (I mean, a large portion of it is just Keegan chuckling to himself about the language used in the press release), but this quote rings true:
"When in doubt, college basketball coaches tend to resort to their security blankets, otherwise known as their most experienced players.
As long as Tharpe was in the program, coach Bill Self forever was going to be tempted to play him, thus stunting the growth of players with higher ceilings, such as likely recruit Devonte Graham and rising sophomores Conner Frankamp and Frank Mason."
The double-edged sword of experience. Tait extolling its virtues and saying we'll miss it, Keegan calling it a crutch and saying we'll be better off. Time will tell, but I'm excited at the prospect of seeing the other options on the court.
The other thing that I have wondered on about Tharpe from the get-go was him playing so far away from his daughter. I have a 5 year old son and can't imagine being away from him months at a time. While it is true that the opportunity to play for a storied program like Kansas is a once in a lifetime opportunity, so to is the opportunity to watch your child grow up. In this respect, I think we should all cheer his departure.
@HighEliteMajor Spot on analysis as usual. Just earlier in the day I was responding to truehawk who wanted to talk about next season's rotation, and my response was until we get some clarity, there's just no way to know how it will shake out with so many players vying for minutes on the perimeter. This provides us with some clarity. Now we are only waiting on Graham's decision to have the full picture. I don't know exactly what to expect from Graham either in terms of his play, but it's reported he's 6'3", and depending on what camp you're in on long & athletic guards in Self's system, that could be key.
As to number 4, don't get me started on the "what if...". You know I was an adamant Adams supporter.
I'm not sure what Self's obsession is with a limited 8 man rotation
@truehawk93 Let's be clear - this is not Self's obsession. As I said in my previous post, the vast majority of teams play 8 players. I did the research on this and posted as such a couple of weeks ago. Only 3 of the top teams last year played more than 8 players - Wichita St., Louisville, and Michigan. As I had pointed out then, Wichita St. had 9 players average double digit minutes, which can in large part be attributed to their weak schedule. They were often times blowing opponents out, thus allowing to go one deeper into the bench. Louisville averaged 9 also, which can be attributed to their style of play, which tires players faster and also lends itself to players getting in foul trouble more often, necessitating the need for an extra person in the rotation. Michigan seemed to be the outlier. Every other team had 8 or less in their rotation (again, just using the gauge of double digit mpg). I have heard Self and other top coaches extol the virtues of a 7-8 man rotation. Any more, and you start messing with chemistry & rhythm. It is logical to assume this is particularly true for a young team, with whom chemistry between teammates is still tenuous at best.
And I'm sorry, expecting Lucas - who couldn't beat out Embiid, Ellis, Traylor, or Black for playing time last year - to start over Alexander is a reach, IMO. To me, suggesting that is the same as when people would suggest that Justin Wesley was going to be a factor in the rotation the past two seasons. Lucas is not the same caliber of player as Alexander, and the gap is so wide that he could spend 10 years in Self's system and still not warrant starting over Alexander.
@truehawk93 History tells us that the overwhelming majority of teams, including most (if not all) of Self's KU teams, play an 8 man rotation. 8 players that will average double digit minutes. So when you say you want to look at the rotation, listing each position and a back-up (or 2) is not practical, as at least a couple of those players will be relegated to diminished roles. Because of this, and because of the uncertainty surrounding the PG position, it is near impossible to guess at a potential rotation on the perimeter. Until there is some clarity there, I can only list who I would want in the 5 man perimeter rotation (and 5 is pushing it):
Mason
Selden
Oubre
Greene (reserve)
Frankamp (reserve)
I'm in the camp not looking to Tharpe. Time to move on. I am also assuming we don't land Graham. If we do...I have no idea.
In the post, I think it is misguided to think Self starts either Lucas or Mickelson, simply because they are closer to a true center. Without Turner, I can say with near 100% certainty that the starters will be Ellis & Alexander, barring injury. Self has no problem starting two 4s - Jackson & Arthur, the Morris twins. I think those were Self's two most talented teams - the '08 championship team and the '11 MorrisHawks (no slight to the '12 runner-up squad). I think Traylor is the first big off the bench.
Now while 8-9 guys will be the only ones averaging double digit minutes, that doesn't mean that guys can't have a defined role. We saw last year Greene had a limited role in which he knew he was getting into the game at some point in the last 10 minutes of the first half. Maybe just for a handful of possessions, but a role nonetheless. Aldrich had a similar role on the '08 team. We'll probably be looking at more of the same this year with the grouping of Tharpe, Mason, CF, & possibly Graham. Someone will be left without regular rotation minutes, but Self will probably keep them active by playing them sparingly in most games. This will be especially true if Tharpe lands in the rotation, as Self will want to keep the younger options ready to bail Tharpe out again if need be.
We also saw for probably the first time last year Self go to a 4 man big rotation (double digit minutes for 4 bigs). I suspect he'll do the same this year, simply because his 3 best post players are not centers, and Perry & Jamari both lack height to defend some of the taller players. It will be a battle between Lucas & Mickelson, and I'm guessing Mickelson wins out based on his defense, as long as he can recapture what made him good in his freshman season at Arkansas. Still, unless he can develop a chemistry like Black did with Traylor, I don't know that he'll average double digit minutes.
@RockChalkinTexas I'm not really up to speed on any NBA inner workings, so I couldn't say if he'd be a candidate for the Lakers job or not. I think he will attract NBA teams, but I think the situation would have to be pretty good for him to leave his alma mater (meaning I don't think he'll take just any old bottom feeder rebuilding job).
Btw, thanks for posting the TRob block link. That was sweet!
@bskeet I would agree with your two teams that are the most likely. Barnes has at least been to a Final 4, and Hoiberg seems on the cusp.
Talent-wise, I don't know that OU or WVU are going to have enough talent anytime soon. Baylor does lack the leadership, but Drew should have a Final 4 on his resume. He took a team to the elite 8 in...2011 I believe, and was absolutely robbed as the officials all but handed the game to Duke. To this day that is probably the worst officiated game I've ever witnessed (and I really don't like Drew, so I'm 100% certain there is no bias on my part in saying that!).
@Crimsonorblue22 Yeah I remember that clown. While that is also a black eye for them, I try and restrain myself from holding an entire fan base accountable for the actions of one person. Look at the guy from TT that got the shove from Marcus Smart. The mob mentality directed towards EJ by a larger number of their fans is more damning, IMO.
Hmm...I'd agree with wissox that I wouldn't mind if Lon Kruger won at OU. I don't have a problem with WVU either, and Self seems to really respect Huggins.
Iowa St. is interesting. I like Hoiberg, and Iowa St. seems to be closest to us in the realignment conversation in that they don't have an attractive football team to help provide them with a soft landing should there be another shake-up. That had kind of endeared them to me. However, after the way their fans reacted last season towards EJ, I can't really root for their fan base to experience a NC.
Drew, Webber, & Ford are the coaches I don't want to see have that success.
I'm not bitter at all. Sure I wanted us to land him, but I'm fine that we didn't. The only thing that bothers me about the whole thing is he drug it out, and let Bill waste his time down there on Easter Sunday. If he knew it was Texas then (and really, what transpired or even could have transpired between now and then that would have swayed him?), he should have told Bill not to waste his time.
I'm with HEM, my only concern is Tharpe.
@Crimsonorblue22 I think maybe Self had made such a good sales pitch he was waiting and hoping Embiid would stay, then he would be more justified in saying no to Bill. When Embiid declared he stalled even more because he was just looking to give Texas every opportunity to do & say the right thing and a last chance to do so down the stretch, because in his heart he wanted to go there but his head was telling him KU.
Idk, at least that's the best narrative I can come up with to explain the wait.
@Crimsonorblue22 I have no read on this. Honestly I thought with the initial wait that the ball was in our court; that he was waiting to see what Embiid was doing. However, I don't know what to make of the long wait AFTER Embiid declared for the draft. My gut tells me that the wait isn't good for us, and that he will sign elsewhere.
@nuleafjhawk I don't have a Men in Black memory neuralizer, so you're out of luck there. But maybe look at it like this - Norm Stewart famously would not spend one cent in the state of Kansas. By your wife buying this chocolate, you know she is nothing like old Norm.
Sorry, that's the best I got.
@HighEliteMajor I won't deny some fond memories beating them. TRob's heroics in the final game culminating in the Self roundhouse fist-pump thing (as ralster once described it). Tyrel Reed burying a 3 and talking shit to the crowd while coming back down the court. But I also carry the sting of Christian Moody missing two free throws with a second left and sending us to defeat, or the meltdown earlier in the TRob year where we had that huge lead and let MU come back and win on us (both games that year had the fans outraged over the officiating. I think it was PhogMarch/MarchPhog that posted pages of the stuff on kusports following the loss).
Could this be grounds for divorce?
@nuleafjhawk I think first you'd need to investigate if Missouri got any residual income from this. Was it officially licensed chocolate and therefore the university got a cut of what your wife spent? Did your wife therefore, unknowingly, support MU athletics? (gasps) The horror, THE HORROR!
I think secondly you should schedule a visit to the doctor to check for intestinal parasites.
To those claiming that KU-MU was a rivalry...was it really? Not in basketball. In football for sure, although lately our football team is a joke and theirs has ascended, but a 57-54-9 record in favor of Missouri is a pretty close rivalry over 100+ years of play. On the other hand, a 172-95 record in favor of Kansas in basketball is not a rivalry. The winning percentage is even wider in the past 25 years. Quite honestly, I don't care much for college football, so losing that game doesn't bother me one bit.
I'm thankful that our players never have to endure the garbage spewn at them from MU's fans. No more personal attacks regarding family members. No more sleepless nights because the Antlers obtained their phone numbers and spent all night prank calling them. Had their program and fanbase displayed a small modicum of class, maybe I'd feel different.
Did the thought once enter my head the past two seasons "this is fun, but it would be so much better if we played Missouri."? No it didn't. Renewing games with them only serves to elevate the pathetic Missouri program. Their whole existence was predicated on fabricating a "rivalry" with blue blood KU. Without us, they are fading further into obscurity. And that is the ultimate win by KU. To watch them squirm and beg to continue to play them; because they need it. They miss the one sell-out in their building. The one time they can manufacture some excitement for their program. It serves no purpose for KU's program. Sometimes it's an RPI boost, sometimes not. We'll sell out every game regardless. The buzz around our program exists year round, regardless of the slavers from the east.
Any games played against Colorado, or any future games against the likes of aTm or Nebraska are a giant "F.U." to Missouri.
@JayhawkRock78 I don't have much opinion on the hire itself, but the fans' reactions during the whole process have been priceless. They are truly delusional. They severely over-value their place in college athletics. They seriously think they could (and should) have landed Gregg Marshall. Or Ben Howland. Or Jay Wright. Or Shaka Smart. Or any of a dozen other good coaches that wouldn't touch that job short of backing up a brinks truck to their homes.
And no, we don't need to play them.
@HighEliteMajor I imagine it was in response (although not directed at) me, given I had last posted on it. Whatever. This is the type of thing that annoyed me on kusports...the cheerleading crowd. If you don't have your pom poms out, if you criticize the team in the least, then you're less of a fan. Or you're not a good human being. Or whatever the implication is here. Nothing here has been over the line. I think that is apparent from the lack of outrage by the vast majority, save one.
For the record, you can be incompetent at something without lacking effort & intelligence. For example, I'm fairly certain I'd make an incompetent shuttle pilot. This group, for whatever reason, was incompetent at adequately and consistently playing M2M defense. Doesn't mean that they weren't trying. Doesn't mean they're stupid. From the literal definition of the word - incompetent: lacking necessary ability or skills; inadequate to or unsuitable for a particular purpose; lacking the qualities needed for effective action. There is nothing in there that insults effort or intelligence. But those definitions pretty much describe our defense to a "T".
@HighEliteMajor I enjoy the debate. I might not always agree, but sometimes I do. Sometimes I disagree, but after looking at a different perspective I change my mind. Other times we just agree to disagree. It's what makes this board fun; it's challenging. It's a group of fans who follow the team passionately. Passionately enough to take time out of their lives to share their opinions and to read others'. Many often re-watch games to help them better understand what they are seeing or why things happen the way they do.
And I don't see anything wrong with describing our M2M defense as incompetent. They couldn't defend to the level we expect. This wasn't the first green team Self has had. He's replaced all 5 starters 3 times in his tenure, yet this group was by far the worst defensive team he's fielded. They couldn't competently execute their defensive assignments.
@jayhawk12 I don't think you're disagreeing with me. I'm not opposed to recruiting top 10 talent. I wouldn't want a team built around them, but as pieces to complete the puzzle they are fine.
@VailHawk Here I am with my gap-toothed Cole Aldrich moniker :) Chris Shaw is the name of the poster from kusports fame that uses Big Man U with the Fear Hawk avatar.
As far as if we deserve it, I think so. I don't think that NBA success is the deciding factor here. I think a lot of it has to do with how successful we are with our big men because of Self's offense, which focuses on getting the ball to the post players. And as @JayHawkFanToo pointed out, we've gotten a significantly high percentage of our post players into the league. With the exception of Kevin Young (and Roy holdover/walk-on Christian Moody), I think every regular rotation post player under Self has played professionally.
And of course we want this title. Doesn't mean we can't be successful at developing a reputation for grooming talent at other positions.
The other idea is that if Self ever went to zone-D predominantly, and starts practicing it--> what happens to the young'uns being brought up in the System? They start having to focus on zone-D (in the limited practice time the NCAA gives us)...and in 1 season, we have altered the developmental 'pipeline'...and basically turned our whole program into a zone-D program? That's a bigtime ramification, HEM, and my friendly thought is that its why Self wont wholesale change his base D, as that will alter the teachings to 2-3 years worth of kids?
@ralster This is exactly the point I've been trying to make, perhaps more eloquently made by yourself. The long term ramifications of making an "all in" switch to be a zone team for one year. From me, a day ago:
"we've essentially taken a year off where we didn't teach the fundamentals of intense, in your face M2M defense to a very young team. So be it this next season, or in 2 years, you've lost perhaps the most important year to teach your core defensive philosophy to rotation guys like Selden, Greene, Mason, Frankamp. I think the underlying reasoning here should be that you never make an "all in" switch for a single season, regardless of personnel."
Do you think you can't do both in practice? I think other teams do. UK was younger and obviously did
@HighEliteMajor I absolutely think you can do both. But your point was that we go "all in" on zone, which I took to mean we practice that instead of M2M. So say in a season we spend 90-95% of the time practicing M2M (which is my guess as to how much time we spend on M2M), going "all in" on zone would mean spending 90-95% on zone in practice. That is what I wouldn't want to do. I'm on record as wanting more zone, but not ever as the primary defense taught.
And no, PG play wasn't the primary reason we lost to Stanford, although Self stubbornly going with Tharpe for far too many minutes in the second half certainly contributed. But to get to the national championship? I could see if Self abandoned Tharpe all together, then and only then would PG play not be an obstacle that we eventually would be unable to overcome.
@HighEliteMajor In regards to needing to recruit guys that fit a M2M scheme, I agree, although I don't know that Self could have foresaw Perry being as bad as he is. Most freshman are going to be bad. Defense just isn't a skill that seems to be cultivated enough in high school. But you take a guy like Perry, who is athletic and has a good work ethic, and you'd have to figure he'd progress into at least an average defender.
With Tharpe, let's be honest, Self isn't recruiting him period if there weren't other misses on the recruiting trail. At least not with the idea in mind that he would be the starting point guard at any time during his career.
As to the point that both myself and @jayhawk12 made about the validity of teaching zone for one year, I don't think I am discounting the value of this season. Did we really have a national championship caliber team? We all wanted to think that during the season. We thought this because of the tough schedule we played, because we won the Big 12 again with it being discussed as one of (if not the) toughest conferences in the country this year. Problem was, for all our tough schedule our only marquee win was against a Duke team in November. The same Duke team that got upset by Mercer. And the Big 12 wasn't all it was cracked up to be, although injuries to Embiid & Niang probably tripped up the league's two best teams. So I don't know if we were NC caliber. I'm not taking into account the Embiid injury, as that couldn't have been predicted at the outset, but our guard play just wasn't good enough, at least not playing Tharpe and having Selden paired as the 2 along side him. The ball handling and decision making just wasn't there I fear. We're probably playing beyond the round of 32, but I don't think the switch to zone in and of itself would have elevated us to a national championship caliber team. Now could enough things have been done to make it that caliber of a team? Possibly. Had Self opened up to all 7 of your suggestions (which seems unlikely to happen within a single season. Perhaps 3 or 4 out of 7 to start). But with those suggestions I don't see the answer to what I think was our biggest limitation, and that is improved PG play. I've been pretty steadfast all off-season that until that is addressed, everything else is secondary.
At any rate, given that I don't think we had the personnel to compete for a NC this past year, I think it is valuing the season more to use it to teach your young core of players the core philosophical principles, namely M2M defense. As much as we'd like to think that every season is NC or bust, there are going to be seasons here and there that are more like stepping stones. Much like we talk about sacrificing games within a season to improve the chance for success in March and needing to view the season as a campaign to the tournament, there are going to be seasons that need to be viewed as part of a campaign for developing a national championship team down the line. I hate that reality, but we've talked before about how we would take an NIT season (like Kentucky last year) if it meant a return trip to the Final 4 the next.
@HighEliteMajor Love it!
There is only one thing I disagree with, and I have posted on it before so maybe you've seen it, but that is the philosophy to go "all in" with a zone defense. My main problem with that is this - so say we went zone last year. The defensive black holes at the 1 & the 4 are still here. So...are we all in on zone again next season? We've lost the big back line defender (although we might get Turner), and we've most likely downgraded at the long & athletic 3 (Oubre replaces Wiggins, but I'm expecting him to not be as good as Wiggins was on D). In either case, whether we land Turner & Oubre is good enough to be the long athletic 3 at the top or if we lack a shot blocker and are slightly worse off without Wiggins, we've essentially taken a year off where we didn't teach the fundamentals of intense, in your face M2M defense to a very young team. So be it this next season, or in 2 years, you've lost perhaps the most important year to teach your core defensive philosophy to rotation guys like Selden, Greene, Mason, Frankamp. I think the underlying reasoning here should be that you never make an "all in" switch for a single season, regardless of personnel. If you're going to make that kind of switch, it should be at a macro/philosophical level. And personally, I don't want to abandon the M2M defense. This year was an aberration. An outlier. Every other year we are statistically one of the better defensive teams in the country. We know Self's defense works almost without exception.
The other problem with switching to a zone defense, as has also been discussed, is that I don't think we have a coach on the staff that would versed enough in zones to teach it and get an acceptable product. Roberts was an assistant under Self and carried on those teachings as a head coach before returning. Howard was a former player under Self. Townsend has been with Self 10 years now. These are all "Self guys." My feeling is we would probably need to bring someone else on staff that has an expertise in this area to get a team that plays a good zone defense. Otherwise, I fear we'd be Baylor 2.0.
All this being said, I'm hugely in favor of having zone defenses in the proverbial coaching bag of tricks. Like the triangle & 2. Not as something that could carry you through an entire season, but as a change-up. Give the opponents something else to think about. I'm not sure if someone on staff would be able to teach us zones to that extent, but it needs to be something available.
After scrolling down I see @jayhawk12 has made a couple of the same points I'd made. Sorry for the redundancy!
@justanotherfan Perry did play AAU ball. I believe the name of his team was "Play & Pray" (or vice versa). Not exactly sure how much, how good they were, and what kind of exposure to other teams and elite players he had. To be honest I don't follow the AAU circuit much at all.
@konkeyDong You can make the case with numbers all you want, but anyone who watched him play throughout his high school career (as I did, living in Wichita, being a former Heights graduate, knowing Perry's parents, and having younger siblings that attended Heights during Perry's time there) would know he wasn't the whole offense.
Furthermore, I think the case could be made (statistically) for a lot, maybe even a majority, of players coming out of high school to blue blood programs. These are guys going to elite level D-1 programs, usually playing with 2 or more guys who might not play basketball again after high school. Some will play at community colleges, some at jucos, some at lower division schools. KU recruits star players, not role players, so in more cases than not I would expect the players we have on our roster to have carried a disproportionate share of the offensive load in high school.
We've probably seen a shift from the percentage of players like this over the last few years, as kids moving around to join better high school teams has become more and more common. Also the amount of kids going to basketball oriented prep schools is on the rise. Regardless, I'd still wager that most players at elite programs were the stars of their high school teams. Perhaps AAU stats would give us a better picture.
Anyway, I guess what I'm getting at is that I don't buy Perry's high school success as a valid reason why he seems to work more "solo" in the post. His personality? Most definitely.
his being used to having been the whole offense for his HS teams
@konkeyDong Perry was far from being the whole offense for Heights. You can't win 4 state titles in a row with one guy being the whole offense. Just ask Frankamp. That is an example of one guy being the whole offense. Heights had other good players. Not McD's all-Americans, but good high school talent.
Anyway, good write up on Graham & Turner.
Born in Wichita, grew up in a suburb just outside the city. Attended Wichita public schools. When I was 10 years old it was 1988, and this proved to be the definitive year in forming my sports allegiances. That March, my grandfather (a die hard KU fan) sat me down and we watched the KU-OU championship game. From then I was hooked. (also that year I became a Dodger fan due to Kirk Gibson, and a Raider fan as Bo Jackson was the coolest thing in cleats). I attended WSU after graduating high school, with the intention of getting a few pre-reqs out of the way while saving some money and that after a year or two I would transfer up to Lawrence. It never happened, and not going away for college remains one of my bigger regrets. I lived in apartments since graduating high school (which is to say I did not live with my parents), but commuting to WSU in no way provided a genuine "college experience."
I've had the opportunity to attend a handful of Jayhawk games in person. One in Kemper, 3 in AFH, and even one during a bus road trip with my aforementioned grandfather up to Nebraska, back when they had Cookie Belcher. All Jayhawk wins.
I don't possess a lick of basketball talent (the small athletic ability I do have went towards baseball), have never played on an organized basketball team nor coached a basketball team. I did spend one year covering high school sports for a small weekly paper, and spent a lot of time at both boys & girls basketball games. This gave me a different perspective on the game that I had loved from afar. Wish I could have kept doing it, but the pay was crap.
@HighEliteMajor I thought your B-Star post was awesome! I got a good laugh out of it!
Self recruiting Turner on Easter has me picturing him a la Nick Nolte in "Blue Chips".
Self: "Myles I wanna come down and talk to you this week. Hell I'll even make the trip on Easter Sunday."
Turner: "We'll be at church in the morning, but after that..."
Self: "What kind of church do you go to?"
Turner: "Assemblies of God"
Self: "Pentecostal? Hell, I grew up in a Pentecostal church!"
Self begins rhythmically clapping his hands while joining in the gospel singing.
(As Jaybate would say, all fiction, no malice)
@BucknellJayhawk3 Regarding AW3 staying or transferring, I know quite a few people (myself included) aren't hopeful that he transfers because we want the scholarship for another freshman. I'd like to see him transfer for HIS sake. For the sake of his collegiate career. Look at next year - is he going to get significant playing time? Self recruited over him last year bringing in Wiggins, it appears he's done it again bringing in Oubre. Greene got minutes ahead of him last year, so you'd have to assume that would be the case again. The point being, barring injury or something unforeseen, the circumstances just don't look good for him playing rotation level minutes next year. To be a junior who was a top 50 level prospect coming out of high school, junior year should be the latest for being in a position to play those type of minutes. And with it not looking good for next year, should he just hold his breath and hope minutes open up his senior year? Should he really leave himself one year of eligibility to experience a significant role playing college hoops? Some guys don't mind, because they are KU blue through & through, but most players are competitive and want to play. Andrew could take the lessons & teachings he's garnered his first two years at KU, transfer somewhere else, sit out a year learning a system, and be ready to potentially star for another team with significant playing time available. I would not begrudge him that. In fact, I encourage it.
@ralster According to Scott Drew's wikipedia page, he never even played varsity basketball in high school. Says he went to Butler and spent a couple seasons as one of the student team managers, then went and asst. coached for his dad at Valpo.
And re-reading your posts got me reminiscing about TRob. Man...what a player. Loved his on-court enthusiasm and all-out effort. Here's a youtube link I have saved that I thought you'd enjoy (and as a bonus it has the clip of Self's "roundhouse fist spike thing" :) )
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