🏀 KuBuckets Archive

@jaybate 1.0 You say that maybe Self respects Haith, but I don't know. At the least, I would say the respect doesn't run both ways. Consider this quote from Haith when he was asked about the taking the Tulsa job:

"This has been a great basketball job at Tulsa with a great tradition with Tubby Smith, Nolan Richardson and most recently with Danny Manning."

Self's name not being included in that list is a glaring public jab in my opinion. He had to include Manning since Manning is the guy he's replacing, and also as a way to reach out to Manning's players he will be trying to keep from transferring. But to exclude the coach who has had the most success since leaving Tulsa...to me that screams of a giant "eff you Bill!". I also suspect that he took it personally that Bill was so publicly adament about not playing Misery once they left the conference.

As far as him being a sound coach, I couldn't say for sure. I don't remember him from Miami and I didn't bother watching a single MU game once they left the conference. But what I do know is that fans of both the Miami & MU programs were thrilled to have him gone. If it was just MU, I probably wouldn't give it another thought, as that fan base is dumb enough that they probably wouldn't recognize a good coach if they had one. Either that, or they'd deify him for being just "a good coach". Not sure which would happen. Regardless, both fan bases seem to think he is a decent recruiter, but not a good game coach and is pretty awful at player development. Basically, he can bring in talent but doesn't know what to do with it and never makes it any better. I remember researching him some when he took the MU job, and he did seem to bring in a fair amount of solid recruits to Miami, yet had a horrible winning percentage there. At MU, he thrived season one with Mike Anderson's already developed upperclassmen. Once they left...NIT bound.

And lastly, I'm not sure why Tulsa would want this guy, unless they are tired of being a stepping stone program for up and coming coaches and feel Haith will be around for awhile. It just seems like a break from their MO in coaching hires.

Lucas would be a distant third, but he has to look at the future and think if he stays he could be a TRob like player when he's a senior or junior even and have that one hot season and get drafted.

@JRyman Thinking Lucas has a chance of being a TRob like player is dreaming. The two aren't in the same conversation regarding the caliber of talent. TRob was national player of the year caliber. I think a closer comparison would be to hope Lucas can progress to a Darnell Jackson type player by his senior year. Even that might be hoping for a bit too much. Remember, Jackson was ranked in the 50s coming out of high school. Lucas was unranked. Not that players can't outperform their rankings or there aren't exceptions, but they are a useful guide.

Now as to the likelihood of him transferring, it would be to his disadvantage because he would lose a year of eligibility, having already red-shirted a year.

Oh and just for laughs, here's a youtube video I've kept saved about the reaction of the Haith hire at Misery. Cracks me up every time!

@JayHawkFanToo Right. That was the point I was trying to make by illustrating how many other programs have their rotations at 8 players. That while I had never heard any other coaches talk about their player rotations (mainly because I don't care to follow any other programs closely enough), that you could see the empirical proof that 7-8 is the standard.

Story on ESPN just came out about Frank Haith being close to accepting the Tulsa job. A couple things, the first being how I feel sorry for Tulsa. That has been a good stepping stone program for so many coaches, including two of our own, now this. Matt Tait had written an article on how they should have given Brett Ballard a look. Maybe they did and decided against him, and now he's joining Danny at Wake. Sorry Tulsa fans. The other thing about this is I'm reading the comments on the espn article and just laughing my ass off. There's a guy from Missouri cracking his own fan base that's pretty hilarious. Quite a few fans trashing Haith. Lastly, I'm curious who their administration is going to try and get, as I'm sure that search will be quite humorous as well, given their inflated opinion of themselves.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/10797288/frank-haith-missouri-tigers-deal-coach-tulsa-golden-hurricane-per-sources ↗

@HawksWin Developing a bench is a good thing, but when the talent gap between the starters and the bench is vast, it makes sense to play your best players the most minutes. This is not a point made regarding the prevention of injuries, but more to your other points about the benefits. I mean, you point to UConn, do you think Kevin Ollie was sitting Napier, Boatwright, & Daniels in lieu of bench players? Napier - 35.1 mpg. Boatwright - 32.4 mpg. Daniels - 29.0 mpg. Compare that to KU's top minute garners - Wiggins - 32.8 mpg. Tharpe - 29.4 mpg. Selden - 29.2 mpg. Kentucky had 4 players (all freshman) average over 30 mpg. Wisconsin had 3 players average over 30 mpg and one average 29.8 mpg. Florida had two players average over 30 mpg, and their third leading player in terms of mpg averaged 27.9.

The point being what seems to work across all systems is playing your best players as much as possible. KU had 8 players average double digits in minutes played. So did all 4 Final 4 teams. Arizona had 7. Syracuse (who spent time this year ranked #1) had 8. Michigan St. - 8. Duke - 7. Virginia - 8 (barely, one player just above 10 mpg). The average seems to be playing 8 players. The only exceptions among top teams I found were Wichita St., Louisville, & Michigan all had 9 players average double digit mpg. Wichita St. can be explained by playing a cupcake schedule in which they were routinely blowing opponents out, which gives you the luxury of going down the bench one further. Louisville can be explained by their system, which both tires guys out more from their relentless play and also gets players in foul trouble quicker. Michigan seems to be the aberration.

So the argument really is that some want Self to change his system. I myself have been in favor of mixing in more traps, presses, zones, etc. But not as a complete system change, but as a change-up. I don't think this requires a major philosophical shift in terms of minute distribution. In KU's two most successful season's under Self how many has he played? In '08 we had 8 players average double digit minutes, and the 8th was Roderick Stewart with 11.6 mpg, many of his minutes coming early in the season while filling in for Rush. And in '12 we had an iron man team, with only 7 averaging double digit minutes. Kevin Young averaged 11.4, while 4 starters averaged over 30.

Despite all other adjustments suggested, I think the problem we had this past season is staring us right in the face: Tharpe - 29.4 mpg. The argument can and has been made that Self should seriously cut those minutes next season and that we must have a capable point guard. Everything else discussed - distribution of minutes, style of play, OADs being ill-suited for success in Self's system - is secondary, and really we cannot begin to diagnose if any of these other issues being discussed are genuine issues until the problem of point guard is addressed.

@HighEliteMajor Sucker!

No I almost posted too, but really the level of debate over there is of such low quality, and often hostile. It's very seldom respectful, and usually it is just beating your head against a wall offering up perspectives to people who are too close-minded to even consider an opposing position.

Man, it is brutal reading the comments over on kusports. Just looked in on the Turner article today. So glad we have this site.

At this point, I don't think we land Turner. The biggest hope I'd had for him coming in was that he was waiting for Embiid to declare to free up playing time. If that was the case though, that his mind was made up that he was coming to KU with Embiid gone, I don't think he'd be waiting so long to announce his decision.

So given the wait, I'm not sure what to make of it. Does he really not know where he wants to go? Are there still mitigating factors waiting to play themselves out? Lumpy posted a link indicating he had made up his mind to go to Texas. If that was the case, if he has already decided, why wait? I don't get it. The only thing there is that maybe he decided and ESPN told him when to announce, or at least when they would be willing to cover the announcement live. From what interviews I've seen and read, he doesn't come off as doing this for the attention or trying to create drama. But if that is the case, it comes off as pretty unsavory. Say what you will about Wiggins and his OAD hype, but he didn't create a circus around himself. He announced quietly to a single reporter.

If he does pass on KU, I'm hoping Larry Brown gets him down at SMU. I'd even settle for Texas getting him. Anybody but Dook at this point.

Just watched the portions of the signing day special that interested me. First they talked to Turner. He didn't give any clues as to where he might be leaning. Said the most important thing for him was where he felt the most comfortable - with the coaching staff, with the players, etc. He seems like an Andrew Wiggins type guy, in that Wiggins chose to come to KU in part because he was really laid back/even-keeled and felt comfortable around guys like Selden & Embiid whom he came to know through various all-star games and whatnot. I think Turner is going to make the same type of decision. I don't know if he has that same comfort level with guys like Alexander & Oubre that Wiggins did with his fellow classmates, but I do think the opportunity is there where it is not for a school like Texas, simply because Turner isn't making the rounds at these various all-star games with anybody else who is going to Texas.

Immediately after speaking with Turner the crew spoke with both Alexander & Oubre. Oubre said (as I have read he has said in the past) that he has told Turner to do what is best for him & his family, but also said he thinks he should come with them to Kansas. Alexander spoke more on the departure of Embiid, how it wasn't really a surprise to him because if someone told him he could possibly be the #1 player in the NBA draft he would leave too. Both players spoke of wanting to win a national championship.

Kind of funny that the studio crew mentioned how set we would be if we brought in Turner, except that we really needed a point guard.

Just saw that Jeff Goodman and Paul Biancardihave tweeted Myles Turner has set his announcement date for April 30. Included in the tweets is a program note that Matt Schick of ESPNU will be talking to Turner sometime today during their national signing day special at 3 PM eastern/2 pm central time. For anybody that has ESPNU and is interested in checking that out. Anyway...2 more weeks of speculation.

And wasn't Turner quoted at one point by saying he wanted to play with a really good pg?

@truehawk93 If that's the case, it wouldn't surprise me if he picked SMU from the teams on his list. They have maybe the best freshman PG in the recruiting class in Emmanuel Mudiay. That or Duke with Tyus Jones.

The point being, I don't think Graham is going to be the one that entices Turner to pick KU.

So having read the article on kusports regarding the team banquet, a few things mentioned spurred some thoughts. First was the acknowledgement that Selden played on a bum knee all year. My first reaction to this was "Jaybate is always speculating on guys that have the quilts on their knees, and lo & behold here's this info." My second reaction was if he can be that much better physically, combined with a year in the system and the increased level of comfort & understanding, he could really be a force. Everyone (myself included) seems to have forgotten him in the Alexander, Oubre, Turner, PG discussions, but how quick we forget how highly rated he was coming into last year, and he quietly had a solid freshman campaign. Looking forward to seeing how he's progressed and looks next season with a hopefully healthy set of wheels.

The second thing that grabbed my attention was the absence of Tharpe. Now the story says that he was in Mass. for the memorial service of a recently passed grandfather. Not to sound too cold as my condolences do go out to him and something like that sounds highly unlikely to fake/lie about, but given the level of embarrassment surrounding his selfie it might be just as well that he was absent from the festivities.

Another topic that was mentioned in the article was Self's comments regarding Mickelson's game. I'm sure the quote from Self will spark more speculation on his role this upcoming season. I still personally can't fathom him starting (as I've seen some posters have in their projected line-ups), and I still see him as being on the outside looking in for regular minutes. This is without Turner mind you. If we sign Turner he'll really be in a dogfight to earn playing time. And no mention of his shot blocking prowess, only his ability to shoot the ball. Maybe it means nothing and we shouldn't draw too much from the quote, but it has been his shot blocking ability he demonstrated during his freshman season at Arkansas that posters always point to when rationalizing his increased projected role for next year.

And finally, no mention of any transfers. I don't know if the banquet is the place for that, or if it usually comes later. If I were a player, I wouldn't want it announced publicly at the banquet. But now that it is over I think if there are likely to be any transfers we will see them soon.

Congrats to Andrew on winning the Danny Manning "Mr. Jayhawk" Award.

@HighEliteMajor Thanks for providing the ESPN insider info there. I don't really understand some of the rationales by the "experts". Maybe it's my crimson & blue colored glasses. But take this sentence:

"Because he has waited -- even though he could have committed at any time to the likes of Duke, Arizona and Kansas -- makes me guess that he will stay home and be the face of the Longhorns program."

Couldn't he have also committed at any time to the like of Texas? That's your reasoning Biancardi? Because he waited he will choose to stay close to home? To me, if you're going to play for the hometown team, you don't take this long to decide.

Or how about this quote:

"Turner needs to work on getting stronger and his post skills are still raw as he enters college. Possibly coming off the bench will give Turner time to develop and Texas provides that as veterans Cameron Ridley and Jonathan Holmes could be excellent mentors."

Right. Because coming off the bench is something all second best players in the country dream of! Oh and remind me, Texas has a history of developing raw bigs? Oh wait that's us!

At least Rankin didn't make something ridiculous up, as he said he was basing it on his gut.

@HighEliteMajor I don't recall, I just know that in that range (1-10), it's a distinct possibility. I mean, he was ranked #4 by ESPN that year. This year Alexander is ranked #3, but it's a foregone conclusion he's a OAD.

@drgnslayr Good point about the shifting waters of the recruiting world and players' stock. I brought up Kaleb Tarczewski. He was the #4 player that year according to ESPN, #9 by rivals. Who wouldn't have thought he'd be a OAD? Now he's going to be a junior at AZ.

The flip side is the meteoric rise of Embiid. He finished as the #1 ranked center of the class. How do you justify putting in all that time recruiting him and pull the offer because he might be a OAD?

The inexact science of recruiting & player development!

@JRyman I agree with your general sentiment of the importance of the position and the importance of having one or two capable back-ups, but I don't think the idea of recruiting a PG every year is very plausible, or at least not actually signing one every year. First of all, scholarship restrictions and needs at other positions can derail that strategy. Second, I think that the strategy would lead to bringing in a very low quality of player eventually. Say there are already two capable PGs on the team - who do you think Self is going to be able to recruit if the player sees 2 or 3 guys already in front of him? Also, as has been pointed out on this thread, there are only 4 PGs listed in the top 60 for next year's recruiting class. We are in on one of those. For whatever reason - lack of interest by one of the parties perhaps - we are not in on the other 3. So if we miss on the one, how far down should we go in the talent pool to ensure we bring in a PG in that class?

What I can see is recruiting combo guards every year, or a combination of a combo guard one year, a guy who is solely a PG the next, etc. If you do that, you are still trying to get players in with good ball handling and floor leadership skills, but they might have to play minutes at the 2 instead of actually running the point. In this scenario, you have doubled the likelihood of minutes being available to recruits. And you are recruiting for multiple positions, which gives you added flexibility in recruiting.

Another great topic! This is why I love this site - a month after our season ended and we're still having intelligent basketball conversation. And without the trolls & incompetents. I had actually written this up last night, went to submit it and my modem crapped out on me and everything was lost, so doing my best to recover those late night thoughts.

Upon initially reading I found myself agreeing with most all of HEM's points. There is no doubt that Self's system functions better with guys who have multiple years in the system. And in theory, yeah I guess it would be preferable to not recruit presumed OADs. And I get the player development hinderance. Sure Greene would be further along next year had we not brought in Wiggins and Greene had gotten those minutes. However, as ParisHawk pointed out, the problem is NCAA tournament success. HEM you were on record very late in the year as saying the team could win a national championship. This was obviously assuming a healthy Embiid come tournament time. Given this statement (I think you even started a thread about keeping the faith), weren't we better off signing Wiggins than giving those minutes to Greene? Isn't that what we're talking about - putting teams in a position to compete for a national championship? Obviously that didn't happen and as you say we now have nothing to show for one year of Wiggins (other than those "Ten There, Done That" t-shirts), but if you truly believed we had a legitimate shot at the time is it fair to in retrospect say "well we didn't win with OAD Wiggins so we should have given the minutes to Greene"? Wouldn't in this scenario bringing in Wiggins be considered a prudent decision? And I don't want to look at things so narrowly as just this past season, so consider the circumstances in which we were bringing in Selby: Collins was gone thus leaving a vacancy at the PG position, the Twins were about to enter their junior year, Tyshawn was wildly inconsistent his first two years - didn't bringing in an OAD PG seem like the final piece to the puzzle? Or how about bringing in Henry: Sherron's senior year, Cole's junior year - a small forward with a NBA ready physique seemed like the right move. Basically my point here is that I don't think our OADs have been brought in to the program recklessly. I also don't think that, as of yet, they have been a serious detriment to the program or the system.

I really like slayr's point about needing to get someone in the league NOW that can carry the torch for KU, as the sands have just about run through the hourglass of Paul Pierce's career. I don't think this is something that should be cast aside as unimportant. It has recruiting implications. I think it helps recruiting, and not just the OADs. We don't want to become an program that is known for not being able to develop talent for the next level. If so, even the 10-50 range kids are going to shy away from us. And I realize that Wiggins succeeding in the NBA isn't necessarily a reflection of him developing at KU. If he turns out to be a star at the next level, it is likely that was going to happen regardless of where he spent his one year in college (much like I don't give Calipari credit for "developing" most of the talent he has sent to the NBA). But the perception would be there. I think this is perhaps a reason why we struggle so much to recruit elite level guards. We are perceived as "Big Man U". We develop post players, but not so much guards.

I also really liked Wigs2's comments about recruiting being a great uncertainty. I think maybe we assume that given Self's success at landing elite level talent the past two years that it has all "clicked" for this staff in regards to recruiting, and that given this we should be a lock to get our pick of the litter in the 10-50 range. I don't think that is an assumption worth making. We're not that far removed from having some serious recruiting misses, and as Wigs2 says, that's how you end up with guys like Tharpe. Or the Milton Doyle/Merv Lindsey types. Or reaching on guys like Kevin Young. Or gambling on a guy like Anrio Adams. Or having Connor Teahan playing major minutes. Or relying on Justin Wesley off the bench. I remember many of the recruiting misses that led to those situations. Kaleb Tarczewski was a big one, and his high ranking (espn #4) might lead some to believe that he was a presumed OAD (he's getting ready to enter his junior year at AZ though), but there were plenty of misses within the next tier, the 10-50 tier, that led to those situations. Tony Parker, Josiah Turner, Otto Porter, Angelo Chol, Jakarr Sampson, and surely others that I can't recall at the time. Were these misses a case of being scared off by OADs being recruited over them? Doubtful, given that we hadn't really seen that happen at the time. Were these misses a case of not being recruited heavily enough because Self was focusing too much on OAD talent? Possibly, but I don't think we can say that with any certainty. The point here being, I can certainly understand Self recruiting the elite level talent given the opportunity because you just don't know how many tiers down you are going to fall without them.

I think the answer here is as slayr suggests, and that is to carefully lay out a recruiting strategy. I do indeed think the focus should be the non-presumed OAD range of 10-50. But I don't think you ignore the top 10. The whole discussion may be moot anyway. Consider what is being recommended - that Self shy away from the best players out of high school. However, is this likely? I think it's doubtful, and here's why: We see and have discussed Self's propensity to "win every game at all costs". He is unwilling to sacrifice games in the spirit of player development. To view the season as a campaign to the NCAA tournament. Now we'd like him to take an even bigger step back and perhaps lessen the chances of success for a whole year in order to better set up future squad's for success? And that's really what we're talking about here. Using this past season as an example, we're talking about not bringing in Wiggins and giving those minutes to Greene and/or AW3. There's no doubt in my mind that the trade-off there significantly reduces our success of last season, if for no other reason than the giant chasm between the defensive abilities of Wiggins and those (or lack thereof) of Greene. The benefit of that trade is that you have better prepared Greene and/or AW3 for the '14-'15 season. I just don't see Self making that macro-level adjustment.

This post is all over the place. My apologies; it was more coherent last night. Anyway, love seeing the discussion. I don't think anybody has made a weak argument. I do still really think the biggest reason we have scuffled in March has been poor guard play. Until that is solved, it may not matter who else we bring in and develop.

I wouldn't sweat Turner (should know by the end of the week, anyway)

@konkeyDong Turner has said he will make his decision sometime after the Jordan Brand Classic, which is this Friday 4/18. Given this, I'm not sure we'll know this week (as that would mean he's either going to announce after the game or the day after. Seems unlikely). Regardless, no one should expect a decision before then.

@FarSideHawk The other thing that tells you this kid is probably legit is who else is recruiting him. If it was KU and just a bunch of middling teams, then OK I would see your point. However, when you factor in that Florida is/was also recruiting him, it lends credibility to him being considerably better than a "no-rank" player.

From the latest article on kusports, Maurice Watson committed to Creighton and Tarik Phillip committed to WVU. That takes two of the options out of the conversation since I originally posted this thread.

However, also per the kusports article, Devonte Graham is scheduled to visit this Friday. An official visit means this has gone beyond a casual interest and is now serious.

On a related note, we all know the scholarship situation and I can't imagine that Self would consider pulling the offer to Turner. So we're looking at someone transferring. It's long been speculated that person would be AW3. My question is, wouldn't it behoove him to announce sooner rather than later? Before other teams fill out their rosters and use up all their scholarships? Maybe he is contemplating staying another year, I just wonder why when it looks like playing time will again be scarce.

@ralster Good post. Loved reading your analysis breakdown of all our past guards. Wondering what your take is on Frankamp. I see you view Mason as a combo guard most likely on the rise. Given this, how far away do you think we are from having the requisite pieces to adequately compete with Self's system?

@drgnslayr LOL...deal! And thanks for providing the links. Definitely worth Self's time to try and land him, even if it's a long shot. I mean, who really thought we'd land Wiggins?

Even if this kid is Selby plus, my point is that Self at least can point to Selby and say "look at this. We had the number 1 'combo' guard back then too, and when he was healthy he starred." It's too bad we didn't get more Selby. On so many levels, but just a little bit more and this would be a major example that Self could point to on the recruiting trail. As it stands, it's obviously less than ideal, but it's something.

Self could also point to Tyshawn. He could say "look, these other schools are going to tell you Kansas isn't a good point guard school. But look at what we did with #70 ranked Tyshawn Taylor. Look how we let him drive at will to the hoop."

@drgnslayr I can absolutely envision him in a Kansas uniform. Anyone remember Josh Selby? I could find a high school high light tape every bit as good with Selby on it. And even playing out of position, he was a stud for about 7 games until injury further derailed his season.

Yeah, I'll pass on anything from the "Kentucky perspective". I just ate breakfast and would like to keep it down.

@nuleafjhawk It's interesting that you point to Vaughn. I loved watching him play as much as anyone, but he had some incredibly talented players around him and yet never managed to lead us to a Final 4. It doesn't surprise me though, as Vaughn was probably the last player to ever hold a press conference to tell us he was staying at KU. Knowing you the little bit that I do from these boards, that had to endear him to you.

Personally I've always been an Aaron Miles guy. To me, his ability to find teammates in a position to score has been the gold standard for PGs here in the modern era. He was also a plus defender, although not on the level of RussRob.

So in the wake of Tharpe's largely inconsistent & ineffective junior campaign as the starting PG, it appears as though Self is scrambling to find another option for next season. Coaches watched 6'3" JuCo player Tarik Phillip this week. Phillip averaged 18.7 points, 6.7 rebounds and 4.7 assists last season for Independence Junior College. There is also interest in former Appalachian St. de-commit Devonte Graham, a 6'2" senior guard from the Brewster Academy. I have so far been unable to locate stats on Graham, but here is an excerpt from an article by Yahoo Sports columnist Jeff Eisenberg:

"Graham had a strong season for Brewster, helping the school win the National Prep Championship. Graham showcased high-major talent, showing an ability to finish at the rim, find teammates off the dribble and keep defenses honest with his jump shot. He also is a ball-hawking defender capable of jumping the passing lanes or forcing turnovers with his ball pressure."

Additionally, Self is recruiting options for the future. Self & Howard went on an in-home visit to recruit #1 2015 prospect Malik Newman, a 6'3" combo guard from Mississippi. That's a no-brainer. But KU has also "been mentioned as a possibility" for 5'10" Boston University sophomore Maurice Watson Jr. who would have to sit out a year before becoming eligible.

The good news is that we see that Self is recognizing this as an area of need, or at least something that has been lacking from the past two squads. My questions are first, what does this say about Self's faith in his current crop of point guards? My hope is it says that Self is done leaning on Tharpe, but might it also suggest a lack of confidence in Mason & Frankamp to adequately fill the role?

My next question is who as fans would you like to see there next season? Are you hungry for some new blood at the position, and if so are you more intrigued by Phillip or Graham? Or do you think some combination of Frankamp & Mason can get the job done, and if so how would you define their roles and divide their minutes?

@JRyman I think Henry was a pretty solid kid as well. Carl Henry was a pain in the ass, but kids don't choose their parents! I know a lot of people still don't think much of Henry's one season here, but I defended it then and I stand by it still. He wasn't a prima donna. When he hit his "freshman wall" and struggled scoring during conference play, he still worked hard on his defense & rebounding to try and be a positive force on the court. It's a shame he came with such baggage, and that his year was marred by another 2nd round (or 3rd round...whatever, round of 32) tournament loss.

It's crazy to even think that Roy might be on the hot seat. Consider Dean Smith coached for 36 years, the arena at UNC is named for him, he retired with the most wins in NCAA history (currently 4th), he is a HOFer and if you asked fans to name the top 5 NCAA coaches of all-time, his name would probably come out of a lot of mouths. Yet how many titles did he win? Two. Two titles in 36 years. One with arguably the best player of all time (Jordan), and one against the Fab 5 which was aided by the Webber time out gaff. Smith was selected to coach the olympic team in 1976, before winning any national championships.

However, this is a new era. A "what have you done for me lately" era. With social media, expanded tournament coverage, hundreds of "expert" analysts on dozens of television & internet outlets. Every decision second guessed. Recruiting implications magnified. If Dean Smith were to have been transplanted to this era to start his coaching career, it is unlikely he would have ever gotten a second contract at a blue blood institution given his very pedestrian first 5 years at UNC.

So while Roy being under fire at UNC is still a bit unfathomable to me, anything is possible! Another lackluster season or two, who knows?

@drgnslayr Nailed it!

I do think there was some genuine interest from the Nets a year ago or so (whenever that was). I don't think his previous stint in the league would detract all suitors. I mean, look at Pete Carroll for the Seahawks. Stunk his first time around, killed it at USC, bailed just before all the sanctions hit, and we all know what he's done with the Seahawks.

Or if you don't put much stock in that comparison, at least I think Prokhorov is that much of a maverick/that eccentric to consider such a hire.

@JayHawkFanToo Agreed, he won't be a prolific scorer. But doesn't mean he couldn't find somewhere to start, which was what I had said he could do if he found the right situation.

@wissoxfan83 Thanks for the rundown!

As long as TRob is stuck behind Aldridge, you're right he won't be starting. But I could see him starting in the right situation.

That's what so much of the NBA is about (for non-stars anyway) - being on the right team at the right time. Think about Chalmers. If he had landed on a team with a great PG, his career could have turned out very different. Xavier finally got a shot at some decent PT this season and like you said was having a breakout season. I'm hoping at some point Tyshawn gets a shot at an extended look somewhere. Maybe that's who you thought you were forgetting, but he's down in the D-League right now

@HighEliteMajor Oh and regarding your last 11 year list, sounds pretty solid. UNC above us as national titles outweigh everything else.

@HighEliteMajor I agree. It's ridiculous. But it also speaks to a larger issue, and that is the depletion of talent and the resulting relatively low talent pool of players remaining in college beyond one year. There are obvious exceptions, the most common being the guard that is considered too small for the NBA, so he remains in college despite success that had he achieved being a couple inches taller said player would have been gone as well. Russ Smith & Shabazz Napier I believe fall into this category (although neither a OAD, no way either of them play to their senior years if they were say...6'3" ).

This climate produces a significantly lower quality brand of basketball. @dragonslayr had a good post a couple days ago on Cal's system being stripped of all the basic teachings of basketball and relying almost exclusively on superior talent being displayed on the most basic of levels. We heard it in the game last night from the commentators questioning a particular defense's effectiveness because Kentucky doesn't run a lot of sets or structured offense. It's one on one, take 'em. And the finger shouldn't only be pointed at Cal. I firmly believe we are seeing that at KU, Duke, and many other schools at varying levels.

College basketball truly is in a sad state of affairs. I fear it will only get worse in the next 5-10 years as it appears more & more likely that the game is going to evolve into treating players as "employees" (read a good piece on this following a link from Jay Bilas' twitter feed. I'll try and find it again to post).

Anyway, hype notwithstanding, I'm pretty excited for Alexander, as I'm sure a lot of fans are. The same can surely be said about fans from other schools and their incoming blue chippers. With the increased visibility on recruiting, AAU ball, & the high school game, ESPN and other media outlets surely look to capitalize on this enthusiasm, thus resulting in articles such as the one you provided in order to get more website hits. I wonder how many serious basketball people in the media really believe it.

@HighEliteMajor I've seen you make a couple references the past week or so about the best teams of the last 20 years. The conversation often quickly spins to discussing Self and his successes & failures. I'm curious what the list of top programs over the past 11 years looks like, since Self took over at KU.

The point being let's not punish Self for 9 years of Roy being unable to win a title in that time frame.

Last night we saw UConn win, and in the post-game celebration Kevin Ollie acknowledged his coach & predecessor Jim Calhoun as "the greatest coach ever." Calhoun has 3 titles, impressive right? You know how long it took him to earn just his first? 13 seasons. Prior to that he had no appearances in the Final 4. During that time also produced a vacated sweet 16 appearance for playing ineligible players. It included 4 NIT appearances.

It wasn't until his 18th season that he won his second NC. Between the two national championships UConn lost in the second round, returned to the NIT, lost in the elite 8, and lost in the sweet 16.

Seven seasons after his second title Calhoun won his third. Between those titles there was a season in which his team lost in the first round of the NCAA tournament, one in which they lost in the second round, an NIT appearance, and a season in which they did not participate in any post-season tournament.

Following his last championship, Calhoun lost the following year in the first round of the NCAA tournament.

HOFer? Undoubtedly. Good thing though there wasn't a "UConn buckets" full of posters to run him out of town for not winning more titles than they felt they were entitled to right?

Just a little perspective that while the Stanford loss stings, it's probably not the death of KU basketball success. Even a HOFer with 3 rings suffered the ups & downs of the NCAA tournament roller coaster.

@drgnslayr Good story. Sounds like you were quite lucky to have this guy as your coach. I'm curious as to why I was tagged in it. Not that I don't appreciate your post, just wondering what in particular I might have written that made you think of me.

As to the sex photo of Naadir, I don't know that it's an important distinction to you or not, but from what I gathered on twitter he wasn't the one that posted it. It originated from someone else's account. No idea how it got out so I don't want to defend or criticize him more than he deserves. Could have been the girl sent it to someone, who sent it to someone, and on & on until someone decided to post it online. Or Naadir could have been sending it to his buddies who did the same thing. We don't know. What we know is he was naked with a woman and took a "selfie". I don't know that him doing that, in and of itself, speaks at all to Self or Naadir's level of respect towards him. These are 18-22 year old kids treated like Gods in the college towns that they play and are living in the digital age. This could spiral into a whole other discussion on whether these kids have to know what they're getting into when they come to a place like Kansas and they must hold themselves above reproach. I think those are judgments I'm not comfortable making.

So here's the real question - is it effective in this state of college basketball to coach an elite major school with a system that takes 2-3 years to master?

@justanotherfan Well, consider that 3 of the 4 schools that made the Final 4 this year were comprised of non-OAD players. The one exception is Kentucky, who put together perhaps the greatest recruiting class ever, and they've needed clutch 3 pointers to win their last 3 games. They very well may win it all, but that type of class isn't going to be available very often, and certainly not available to more than one school every so often (Duke's class next year features 5 ESPN top 20 players). Last year's Final 4 (Louisville, Wichita St., Michigan, Syracuse) did not feature OAD talent. 2012 had a Kentucky team full of OADs win the title, but KU, Ohio St., & Louisville didn't have OADs on their roster.

So I think the likely answer isn't to change the system, but rather the players. HEM & others have advocated not going after kids that are presumed OADs. Perhaps that is part of the answer to HEM's question "is there a cure for what ails us in March?" The alternative that we see is to be able to build Kentucky-esque recruiting classes. That seems to be the only formula that succeeds without having 2-4 year guys, and I wouldn't think it wise for anyone else to count on being able to do that on a consistent basis.

@HighEliteMajor Yes I'd have to have the replacement. It would be different if we weren't at least "treading water". If we were not recruiting as we should be able to. If we were not making the tournament regularly. If we had a "lack of institutional control". Basically, if things were going bad like they did for Howland at UCLA. But we have none of that. Our only gripe is our desire to have a higher rate of success in the NCAA tournament. The question is a little ridiculous given that we are two years removed from the national title game. But I would at least entertain the idea if someone could present a case for another candidate with a low risk-high reward profile, because as much as I think Self is a great coach, if someone can do better I would say make the change.

I still come back to the problem I have with our fans thinking we are entitled to more. "We are Kansas basketball". Or, as @KULA said "It's Kansas that makes the coaches great, not the other way around." We have 3 National titles, and one of them was won by Bill Self in his 11 year tenure. The NCAA tournament began in 1939. That's 75 years of tournaments, and we've won 3 of them. That's a clip of one every 25 years for our program. That's how great Kansas has made its coaches for the past 75 years. What level of success does anyone think we had prior to Bill Self that they think he hasn't delivered on since his arrival?

Is it wrong to want more? To want the program elevated? To enviously look at UConn and say "why isn't that us?" Not at all. I certainly do. But don't delude yourselves with "we are Kansas." When anyone wants to evaluate our program and talks about taking off the crimson & blue colored glasses, I would advise them to do the same and start with this basic fact: Kansas is a great program with wonderful tradition. But that tradition doesn't really include that which we are so hungry for - increased tournament success. If you want us to build upon that and have greater success, fine. Me too! But please stop acting as if we've "fallen off".

@HighEliteMajor I considered this, and my gut reaction is no. Mainly because I don't see anyone out there right now that we could get that I would consider better. Sure, we might find someone more flexible. Rick Barnes or Bruce Webber might be more flexible, but they are not close to the complete package that Self is. Self has what I consider to be an excellent core philosophy. He is an excellent recruiter. He is charismatic. He is a great ambassador for the program. And even if he is unwilling to be flexible, we have evidence that he doesn't always need to be. We can win it all with him not adjusting. Maybe not as often as we'd like, but we know it's attainable.

The other thing that I have a problem with people asking to replace Self because he is not meeting our standards or expectations of success is that Self has as many national championships as any other coach in the university's history. When people say "this is Kansas" as if to say we should expect more, I wonder why. What success have we experienced in the past that would lead us to feel entitled to more than Self has given us? This is perhaps a harsh reality to face, but perhaps we should feel fortunate to be included in discussions with other blue blood programs.

Back to my original point, who would we look to if Self wouldn't change? Are we willing to take a risk on a lesser name or someone who is more unproven? The example here that comes to mind is Kentucky getting rid of Tubby Smith, and striking out with Billy Gillispie. Sure they got Cal with their second swing and are surely happy with the success he has brought the program, but there were no guarantees when they fired Tubby that if Gillispie didn't work out that someone of Cal's caliber would be out there and available. Look at UCLA. When (if ever) are they going to land an elite coach that elevates their program to what we would consider blue blood status? Ben Howland was supposed to be that guy, and he took them to some Final 4s, but was eventually replaced for not winning championships and letting the program fall off towards the end of his tenure. Now they're trying Steve Alford. Does a Steve Alford/Billy Gillispie type hire fill you with confidence?

is there a cure for what ails us in March?

@HighEliteMajor I started a thread entitled "Biggest Change Needed" about a week ago wanting to know fans' thoughts on exactly this issue. I went back & forth quite a bit with konkeyDong on the issue of flexibility. Others suggested that the major problem was related to the 3-point shot, developing shooters, allowing them the freedom to take the shot at any point during the possession (early in the shot clock. Some focused on the PG position. And I believe there was a smattering of conversation about OADs.

My personal belief is that being flexible with both general philosophy as well as in-game management would lead us to at least a partial answer.

So there's an article on KUsports right now that says Basketball times ranked Kurtis Townsend as the #1 assistant in the country. I'm thinking it's a pretty good read until I see that they have Self ranked as the #9 head coach. 9? Are you kidding me? Here's the list, in order, of the 8 they rank ahead of him:

Mike Krzyzewski (Duke), Rick Pitino (Louisville), Larry Brown (SMU), Tom Izzo (Michigan State), Roy Williams (North Carolina), Billy Donovan (Florida), John Calipari (Kentucky) and Jim Boeheim (Syracuse).

Some great coaches, no doubt, but I'd be interested in seeing the context of the rankings. I mean, these have to be heavily favoring coaching resumes and not where they are now, right?

So now what, I'm forced to root for UConn to get it's 4th national title and surpass us? Couldn't have been a worse title game

@JayHawkFanToo I really hate the Harrison twins!

Florida played a poor game and could not buy a three.

@JayHawkFanToo How many times have we had the exact same response to our losses? Sounds a lot like the '11 team doesn't it?

HEM has a good explanation as to why saying "we just didn't make shots" is a non-excuse.

As an almost yearly ritual, when our season ends with a loss in whatever round of the tournament, we gather to often criticize what we feel to be an underachievement. We wonder if Self has his teams too tight. If he's a good in-game manager. If he made the right moves during the season to place the team in the best position for success. What he could/should have done different in the season-ending loss. Etc.

This got me to thinking that while we have one of the truly awesome fan bases in all of college basketball, surely other teams have fans doing similar critiquing. Take Florida for example. After bowing out three consecutive times in the elite 8, their fans had to be having some questions about Donovan. Does he have his teams too tight? Are his prior successes the result of one phenomenal recruiting class? This year he broke through and returned a squad to the Final Four as one of the favorites to win it all (and likely THE favorite), only to be upended by a 7th seeded UConn squad that finished third in the new American conference. How do you reconcile this as a Gators fan? To me, the feeling would be similar to the feeling we felt in '11, when Self's MorrisHawks were the favorite to win it all and were upset in the elite 8 by VCU. Although Florida did at least get one step farther and advanced to the Final Four, that would be little consolation to me as a fan of a team that looked poised to win it all. Or maybe as a Gator fan, they simply shrug and begin/continue the conversations about Muschamp and the football team, a luxury we don't have.

My point in this is might looking at Florida give us some perspective on Self and some of the perceived tournament shortcomings we've experienced? Not that it stings any less, or that any of our criticisms & ponderings are any less valid, but might it make us at least a little more likely to chalk up the tournament losses to the madness of March?

@HighEliteMajor I would feel comfortable with Traylor being our 3rd post player next year. I mean, that's what he was this past season (more mpg than Black for anyone who disagrees), and I believe it was you who wrote a "keep the faith" piece AFTER the Embiid injury heading into the tournament. So from that standpoint, how could we not be comfortable? If anything, I'm more uncomfortable with Ellis being our 1st or 2nd post player, and I'm a huge Ellis guy but he sure can be frustrating.

Looking at it from a different perspective, if he is the 3rd post player next year that means we lost Embiid and failed to bring in Turner. That would be discouraging. Even in that scenario, I think something that helps us be a little more comfortable is that we also have Lucas & Mickelson next year to hopefully be a good complement to Traylor. We don't know for sure, but I'm hoping to see some decent progression from Lucas's game, and I'm not sure what to expect from Mickelson, but I'm optimistic nonetheless. Basically, it's not all on Traylor to carry the bench, much like it wasn't this past year having Black around.

@JayHawkFanToo Sure you can compare. Is it apples to apples? No, but there are enough similarities that we can compare. You listed the difference in the programs' success. So in that respect, yes the Wake job is a tougher gig. However, consider Ollie had 2 years asst. head coaching experience and no head coaching experience. In this respect, Danny has the edge. He should be more ready to coach & recruit in his first year at a BCS school than Ollie was his first year at UConn.

Also, Wake's success isn't so far in the rear view mirror that it is irrelevant. Bzdelik's 4 years were disastrous, but prior to that they were in the NCAA tournament. They have superstars in the NBA with which to point to with their tradition. It doesn't compare to UConn, but let's not make UConn more than what they are. UConn is/was a lot like Duke, in that all of their success had been under one coach (Calhoun). When he left, it wasn't a guarantee that the school would continue to succeed. You point to the ACC being tough as a drawback for the Wake job, but I look at UConn's situation - the crumbling of the Big East and move to the American, which will be less of a television draw as it does not have near the luster of the old Big East (and is losing Louisville after this year) and thus less of a recruiting draw - and that's not ideal. And with the schools the American is now bringing in - Tulsa, East Carolina, etc. - it has the chance to be more of a fringe conference, like the old conference USA. Basically, the UConn job wasn't, and still isn't, foolproof. In this respect, at least Wake is on stable ground in the ACC. It's more of an uphill climb, but it can be done.

I would agree the UConn job is a more attractive gig. No doubt about it. But to say the comparison of coaches has no merit I think is incorrect. Manning will have different challenges than those Ollie has, but I can definitely see him succeeding there.

@JayHawkFanToo Part of me wonders if he is ready for the jump to a "BCS school" as well, but a bigger part of me thinks he'll do fine. I'm not saying he's a HOFer yet, but he had the privilege of playing under Larry Brown & coaching with Bill Self - can't get better teachers/mentors than that!

@ralster - agreed that Manning isn't any more ready to coach KU than Turgeon is. The difference is, imo, is that Turgeon will never be ready. He's plateaued. I thought that when he was at aTm. He's definitely been at BCS schools long enough to where if he was going to get much better he would have by now. It remains to be seen where Danny will end up when he hits his coaching ceiling.

Regardless, the thing that a lot of people don't take into consideration is that Danny & Self are about the same age. So unless Bill cuts his tenure at KU short (the oft-speculated NBA allure perhaps), there's not going to be much left in the coaching hourglass for Danny at KU by the time Bill leaves.

And to both of you, just saw this on a reaction from Seth Greenberg to the Danny hire, look at what Kevin Ollie has done at UConn already. If he can get them to a Final 4 in what...2 years, why not Danny?

Congrats to Danny. Wish him all the success at Wake.

So Myles Turner is waiting until after the Jordan Brand Classic on April 18 to make a decision on his college of choice. To me, Embiid needs to have made a decision by then. How pissed would we be if Turner went elsewhere and then JoJo announces he's going pro after the fact? It's only 10 days earlier (April 28 ) then when he would have to declare anyway.

My preference would be to get back a healthy JoJo, but Turner is the ultimate in consolation prizes. It will be a shame if we have neither next season.

Also hearing rumors that Jabari Parker is leaning towards returning for another year. Duke will be absolutely loaded if that happens plus Okafor, Tyus Jones, Justise Winslow, & Grayson Allen coming in (all top 20 recruits).

@wissoxfan83 Haha, yeah I guess my name does serve a dual purpose (although I've never gotten onto a hockey message board). I ended up watching the game at my son's great-grandfather's house (the great-grandfather from his mother's side, who I am not with).

The thing that drove me nuts about the Wisconsin game last Saturday was I flipped over to CBS to see what hot programming they had on that they couldn't have the games cut into, and they were playing "Punchline" a Tom Hanks comedy from 1988.