@wissoxfan83 Fellow Blackhawks fan without cable, and yeah that annoyed me to no end when I had to find somewhere to watch the game.
icthawkfan316
653 posts
@drgnslayr Who are we in on that could come in and play right away? The only person I've heard is that Thompson kid out of VTech, but he'd have to sit a year.
My point is, assuming we lose JoJo, anyone we bring in likely isn't going to be good enough to displace Ellis (Tarik Black wasn't) or to keep Alexander off the floor. The only exception would be Turner, but even in that situation I don't see Alexander "stealing most of his minutes from Perry at the 4". I see a situation where the 80 minutes between the two post positions are fairly evenly split. Sometimes that means Perry & Alexander (likely starters in this situation, IMO), sometimes it's Perry & Turner, sometimes it's Alexander & Turner. I think Alexander is long enough and enough of a presence to cover some of the rim protecting responsibilities when Turner is out.
The one exception that I do think Alexander could come in and steal Perry's minutes at the 4 is if JoJo comes back. If that were to happen, I think that is the one situation I could see Bill getting creative and maybe playing Perry at the 3 some.
@drgnslayr We did have 5s off the bench, but your point was about Alexander coming in and taking Ellis' minutes at the 4. As if to say they both play the same position so those minutes must be divvied up between them. If JoJo leaves and Turner doesn't come in, do we honestly think Self is going to start Lucas or Hunter Mickelson over Ellis or Alexander? Or anyone else we might bring in at this point (should we miss on Turner)? No way.
Kaun did not start to my recollection, other than senior night against Texas Tech. In '08 Sasha averaged 17.7 minutes, Jackson 24.3 , Arthur 24.7. And while Sasha was more a 5, he wasn't a rim protector. Shady had more blocks on the year than did Kaun.
@ParisHawk It's definitely better to have good perimeter defenders, you're right. But It didn't matter. Self could have had horrible perimeter defenders on those teams, but what was he going to do, play freshman Cole Aldrich over Jackson & Kaun? Or play sophomore Withey over Mk. Morris & TRob? The players in front of the rim protectors were so much better all around at that stage of their careers that perimeter defense was a moot point; the switch would have been a net negative.
Don't even get me started on Brady...
@drgnslayr I agree 100% that Ellis is ill-suited to be an NBA post player. If he wants to succeed at that level, it will have to be at the 3.
I think from an offensive standpoint Perry could do well at the 3. I think ball handling and passing would be two areas he would need to work on more than perimeter shooting. I think right now his ball handling is very good for a post player, but likely average for a 3. He would definitely be a different look at the 3 than guys like Rush, Releford, or Wiggins.
It's the defensive end that I wonder more if he can succeed at the 3. Granted, he's a below average defender in the post, so the trade-off is having bad defense at one position or the other. When you think about it, Perry isn't in danger of becoming a tweener that struggles in the NBA, he is a tweener right now in college. His skill set lends itself to being exposed to mismatches on the perimeter & the post. I honestly don't know how you reconcile that, at least not in Self's system.
As for hurting Self's reputation with top shelf talent...again, see Julian Wright. I would guess it wouldn't hurt him too much if Perry isn't successful, given that it will be around the time guys like JoJo, Wiggins, Alexander, etc. will be coming into the league to at least deflect a majority of that criticism.
As for Alexander coming in and stealing most of Perry's minutes, I see a situation where Self starts both. Self isn't hung up on always having a true center at the 5. In fact, I would argue that his two best teams did not feature a true center in the starting line-up: the '08 championship team with Arthur & Jackson, and the '11 team with the Morris Twins. Self will start the two best post players, sometimes it includes a true rim protecting center, sometimes it's two athletic 4s.
@drgnslayr Even if it's a case where he isn't going to be a OAD, it doesn't mean he isn't looking to start. Or just from a minutes perspective, having JoJo, Alexander, & Ellis around might be enough to make him consider other alternatives. I know you think Ellis needs to transition to the 3, I just don't see it happening. History suggests Self won't do it (Julian Wright, Marcus Morris, etc.), and I'm not sure Ellis is cut out for it anyway.
I'm not sure why Self has basically told Myles to go elsewhere if Embiid stays.
@drgnslayr I think the logical answer is that Myles is looking to start. You aren't the #2 player in the country looking to come off the bench. So if he told that to Self, that would be my assumption as to why Self told him to look elsewhere.
@nuleafjhawk Well, as long as you're not an OAD, I think we can find a spot for you :)
@truehawk93 I think you mean Jalen Brunson, not Munson.
Hard to say with recruiting. Maybe he was approached and we were told he has no interest in coming to KU. Maybe we are in on better prospects that Self has more confidence in, like Allonzo Trier who is 6'4" and about 10 spots better in the ESPN rankings (although ranked lower on rivals rankings, but who does have KU on his list).
It will be something to keep an eye on during the spring and summer, as kusports will have the occasional recruiting blurb in their articles. By the fall we should have a more clear picture on who the targets are for 2015. Until then, it's just too early to speculate.
Saw a tweet from Jeff Goodman that Wake Forrest is interested in Danny Manning.
@globaljaybird Agreed, 50 large is decent change.
But while I really don't put a whole lot of stock into it, the more I looked at it the more it got me to thinking along some different lines. $50k for conference regular season champions. $150k for a Final 4 appearance. So, just based on the contract, we can assume that 1 Final 4 appearance = to 3 conference championships. In a year where you win the National Championship I'm assuming you get both the Final 4 and the National Championship bonus, so by those terms 7 conference championships = 1 national championship. Just a little something to consider to the "would you trade our conference championships for another Final 4/National Championship" crowd.
(btw, I don't really think along those lines, but it is a way to put a price on our different successes)
Agree, a 9.5 with the only deduction being we only got him for a year. By all accounts he was a great teammate, he routinely tried to downplay the personal hype and made the season about the team and not his own personal showcase.
I'm happy to hear he thinks it was a 10. That means he enjoyed his time here. I enjoyed watching him. Best of luck to the young man in the league.
they went all KU football on him and didn't give him a lot of time to instill his system with his players
@JRyman He was there six years! Not sure how much more time a program is supposed to give a guy. I don't know all the details, but he never made the NCAA tournament, had one CBI appearance and one NIT appearance, he finished one game above .500 twice...to me it seems like he got a fair shake.
Anyway, I think he's a good assistant coach, and maybe in a different situation could make a good head coach.
Obviously in games & practices in front of your players you want everyone on your staff to be on the same page (i.e. not "argue with you" ). But I think what some people are suggesting is bringing in someone in to help expand or tweak the general system, or to help aid in coaching some areas where perhaps Self isn't as proficient. Some have suggested that perhaps the reason we don't bother with much zone is that we don't have anyone on staff who is a "zone guy". No one with that expertise. Which is not to say bringing someone of that nature means Self is switching his defensive philosophy to that of playing primarily zone, but just to help teach it to have another club in the bag.
@globaljaybird Well the details of Self's contract are available to review. Here is a link to the pdf file on kusports:
Here are just some of the things I gleaned from reading an overview on ljworld.com:
• Regular-season conference championship ($50,000).
• Conference postseason tournament championship ($25,000).
• AP Coach of the Year ($100,000).
• Final Four appearance ($150,000).
• NCAA Championship ($200,000).
Personally I don't think these things factor into Self's coaching philosophy. He's got plenty of money. Regardless, we see that his bonuses are considerably higher for Final 4s and post season championships. So in that regard, it would be worth sacrificing a win, or even a Big 12 title, if he thought that better prepared his team for tournament success. Just from a monetary standpoint anyway, which again, I don't think he factors into consideration.
How about finding those great assistant coaches we used to have
@Shanghai_Hawk Well, that's certainly an area we can explore. But it does no good to bring in say...a brilliant offensive minded assistant if Self not going to be open to doing things even slightly differently. Until we see that, I think the point is perhaps irrelevant.
But let's take a look at the assistant coaches we have now:
Kurtis Townsend. He's the mainstay, being on the staff since 2004. Not sure of your opinion on Townsend, but at the very least we know he's been at the center of the team's successes & failures throughout the years.
Norm Roberts. Replaced Manning in 2012. I don't know that we've had a big drop off developing big men since Manning left. Maybe too early to tell, but nothing noticeable yet. Roberts brings former "BSC school" head coaching experience from his years at St. Johns. Also brings strong east coast recruiting ties.
Jerrance Howard. Replaced Dooley after Dooley took the FGCU job following last season. Former player under Self at Illinois. Assistant gigs at SMU, Illinois, Texas A&M, & Kentucky. Reputation as an excellent recruiter. Got some top flight players to commit to SMU during their rebuilding phase.
So there's the bios of what we have on staff now (assistants only. Not discounting Hudy, or any team managers, director of basketball operations, etc.). I honestly can't speak to their personal coaching philosophies, as only Roberts has run his own system and I didn't follow St. Johns to know what they ran. I don't really have issue with anyone, but if you were to replace one, who goes? And what exactly do you want on the staff now that you don't think we're getting? Maybe a guard specialist to better develop our guards? Offensive/defensive strategist?
@konkeyDong Yeah you did tell me about Tharpe and the PG play. I guess I overlooked it because I was thinking on a more general/macro level. Like something to be done across the years.
This explains, I think, perhaps some of our disagreements. And it's probably my fault for not being clear enough, but most of the things I was suggesting or referencing were meant to be directed in broader terms, not specific to the past year's team or the loss to Stanford. For instance, when I was making the point about the wrong personnel and mentioned it wasn't practical to run a high-low offense with players 6'7" or shorter, that was just an example and not me referring to this past year's team (although without Embiid it was close to being accurate). It's also why I'd agree that adding ripples or working the less used parts of the offense/defense makes more sense with a veteran-laden team, and not necessarily this past team.
As to the issue of making core judgments and if it's worth leaning on that system to try and produce more wins in March...eh. I tend to agree with HEM in that March success trumps all these days. I don't know that it means taking a "swing for the fences" approach though, as I'm like you in that I don't think I would take the real down years. But I look at Kentucky, and I would absolutely trade our last two seasons, even if it meant being taken down by Robert Morris in the NIT last season. They're right back in the Final 4. To me that beats making the sweet 16 last year and the round of 32 this year plus two more conference championships. And yeah I know it's not a fair comparison, as you're right and I've also said as much that the Embiid injury changed everything. I doubt Kentucky would be where they are had Julius Randal missed their first two tournament games (a loss to Wichita State would be the likely result in that scenario).
@konkeyDong I have already made the case to shy away from what you're best at and try and win doing something we are less proficient at. What you continue to fail to do is to take into account the other team and what their strengths are, what they are vulnerable to, etc. Again, say you are best at M2M defense, but your opponent's offense absolutely shreds M2M defense. Now, say that same team is totally confused/baffled/inept at attacking a zone. Even if you are not as good running a zone defense as you are running M2M, that doesn't automatically mean that the strategy will be less successful. I gave the example of pressing. Even though we are not a pressing team, Self was likely more comfortable going to the press earlier in the game than we have seen on other occasions because pressing attacked their weakness.
We can go round and round about using a zone for a possession or two and what that means - overhaul, tweak, special situation, abandoning core strategy - but essentially it's semantics and we'll have to agree to disagree. I just don't see adding a handful of possessions playing zone, or trapping, or pressing, as overhaul, whereas you do. To me it doesn't really matter what you call it, I'd like to see it.
I am still interested if you have an answer to the question that was posed as the topic of the original thread: What would you change that you think would improve our post season success?
@Lulufulu85 @MoonwalkMafia Don't feel the need to fill the second post position with a true center. Sure they're nice and definitely help the defense, but playing two athletic 4s in the post is perfectly acceptable. So look for a starting line-up of Ellis & Alexander in the post, unless we land Turner and he impresses so much that he rips the starting job away from Ellis. Two of Self's best teams (probably THE two best in my opinion) have played with two athletic 4s starting - the '08 championship team with Jackson & Arthur, and the '11 team with the Morris Twins. My point is don't expect Lucas or Mickelson to leap frog over Ellis & Traylor just because they may be closer to a center than a power forward.
@HighEliteMajor I hate that the Big 12 has no other marquee teams and that the other teams never do anything in the tournament. I do think this year both ISU & OSU had FInal 4 talent, but like us were derailed by injuries. Okie St. was never the same without Cobbins. ISU lost it's biggest MUA when Niang went down - they easily beat UConn with him. And obviously we were pretty average without Embiid.
Anyway, yeah the Gonzaga comparison is a very appropriate one.
@JRyman I think for a lot of us, the hangover won't be over until November. Or at least until Late Night.
Maybe if KU football was something more to look forward to, that could be our Denny's :)
"How desperate are we for a PG exactly?"
Well there's a blurb in the Jeff Boschee article on KUSports about us being interested in a guy who is trying to get out of his commitment to Appalachian St.
@konkeyDong Well you make several good points. And let me just be clear, I'm not a "Self-doubter". I'm also not a Self worshiper. Both annoy me. But fair criticism or suggestions or just ponderings are not out of bounds. And that is the point of this thread that I created. And that is something I still don't think I've seen you answer, is that if you had to change one thing to improve our tourney success, what would it be? Or do you think no change is needed? Either is an acceptable opinion.
To your point that adding ripples until something is a part of your scheme is overhauling your philosophy, I couldn't disagree more. As you stated, Self is a M2M guy that will throw in junk defenses for special situations. So you acknowledge that the junk defenses are a part of his philosophy. But then you say that if this KU team did that (and by that, my example was throwing out a zone following a timeout) it's switching from a relatively poor defense to a worse one. My question is...why doesn't doing that constitute one of those special situations already in his philosophy? Or in what situation is it acceptable to you to use those junk defenses? Basically you've acknowledged these circumstances exist, but the suggestion of using them in another circumstance is an overhaul? That makes no sense. I'm not calling for Nolan Richardson's "40 minutes of hell" or Louisville's "helter skelter". I'm definitely not calling for more than a handful of possessions at most of using zone. But using something here or there as a change-up. It's not an overhaul because it doesn't demand abandoning the M2M that you spend the majority of the time teaching.
One thing that you've said is that you know it's frustrating when "your strengths aren't getting you where you want to go", but that basically because they are your strengths you should stick with them regardless. You've just described insanity - doing the same thing over & over again expecting different results. I get that we might not be as good doing something else, that we may not have mastered playing one way as opposed to the core offense/defense. The fact that we will be less proficient at it must be taken into account, but you are completely discounting how good your opponent is against different things and the fact that it can take your opponent by surprise. Maybe the scouting report says that they are horrible at facing zone and will simply pass it around the perimeter before jacking up a contested 3. Why not go to that for a bit? This is probably why Self was more comfortable going to the press earlier than he normally would against Stanford, because the scouting report said they had no true point guard and film showed they were susceptible to turnovers against it. Or to use a baseball analogy: let's say you have a great fastball, and you just learned how to throw a curve a month ago. Now, Pedro Cerrano steps into the batters box. Scouting report says, he can't hit the curve to save his life. Do you stubbornly throw fastballs because that's what you're best at, or do you use the curve which isn't something you've mastered but you know it doesn't matter because he can't hit it?
Also as I was saying, even if it's not something that you know for a fact is going to work in the scouting reports, it might be something that will catch your opponent by surprise or off-guard. They might take 3 to 4 possessions to figure it out. Sorry to keep returning to the baseball analogies, but it's why pitchers don't just throw one pitch. Even if their fastball is their best pitch and throwing something different on the next pitch means that pitch is, in a vacuum, less effective than the fastball, you still have to mix it up. Give your opponent something different to think about. And who knows, you might discover that although you aren't as effective at doing the different thing (zone, press, etc.) your opponent is even more inept at attacking it.
And you are right, I did remind HEM that Self was not just idly sitting there doing nothing in the Stanford game. He did start the press earlier. He did reach deep into his bench for the second game in a row to someone that didn't play much during the season. I myself was very pleased with how he developed his bench this year. He had his main rotation, but Greene had a role where he got minutes almost every game down the stretch. He knew he had a role. And while going 9-10 deep was not always possible, he found minutes for CF regularly. He played 4 post players almost every game, which differs from his typical 3 plus the 4th for garbage minutes. My main frustration from that game was playing Tharpe so many minutes in the second half. Aside from that, I thought he should have run some set plays to try and get Wiggins going. No, not putting him in the high post (I agree with your analysis on why that wouldn't have worked), but something. Some staggered screens to get him free for a jump shot. You can't tell me that we don't have those in the playbook. If we don't, then our offense DOES need an overhaul. Now maybe they tried and the plays didn't work out the way they were designed. Maybe the screeners did a poor job and he couldn't get the shot off. Maybe Stanford sniffed them out. We don't know how much is failed execution. But 6 shots is unacceptable from Wiggins, and I thought more should have been done than what I saw to get him going.
Your point about lacking the ideal pieces for your system is no reason to abandon a successful formula, well it's not a successful formula without the right pieces! Would you continue to try running a high-low offense if you have no bigs taller than 6'7"? If you're philosophy is shooting a lot of 3s, do you keep doing that on a team with no pure jump shooters? And you say bend the players to you, and if you can't do that, you're not much of a coach. Well, what we had and what we tried didn't work. We lost. It didn't work. There is no denying that. I will acknowledge the loss of Embiid as huge. But we lost multiple games all year in very predictable ways. We struggled in very predictable ways. Can you honestly say that Self did a good job bending this group to his system? Sure we won the Big 12 again. Sure we were granted a 2 seed. We had a very talented group of players. But the highlight of the season was the win over Duke. In November. I honestly don't think much bending was done. We certainly never got much better on defense, at least not appreciably better than other teams got on offense as the season wore on.
Again, I don't advocate scrapping the formula because you might have a team that is a bit too much square peg for the round hole. But I don't see throwing out a zone/press/trap/"junk defense" for a few possessions as scrapping the formula. I don't see asking to pull out something in the offensive playbook other than the high-low and the weave as scrapping the formula. There's tons of little things within M2M defense that you can try. Do you double/trap the post? Do you front a taller post player or play behind him? Do you switch on ball screens or mandate your players fight through them?
Not sure I'm on board with a JUCO or graduate transfer. If the situation is right I guess, but those don't seem to fall in our lap, at least not at the PG position. I'm all for CF or Mason getting a fair shot at the starting AND back-up jobs, or Selden as you and others have mentioned.
I do think Self did a good job with what he had this year. The Embiid injury derailed the season. Had Embiid been healthy I think we beat Stanford. Not sure about Dayton with their 3 point shooting, but I'd have us favored to win that game. Are we having these discussions at all if we lost again to Florida Saturday night in the elite 8? I doubt it. We'd probably still be pissed, but we could more easily accept it I think. But I guess that's the line between having a successful season and being upset in the round of 32 and everyone second guessing. So, in regards to this season, perhaps you are right in that Self didn't make many wrong choices. My suggestions aren't specific to this season, but are more generalized. I appreciate your insights, as they definitely challenge my thinking on things and reading your posts has even changed my thinking on certain topics. Sorry my response is a bit all over the place. It was pretty late/early morning when I wrote it up.
@konkeyDong Maybe that is a better description for what I think AsadZ was talking about. We'd like to seem him be more tactical. Again, I'm not for changing the core philosophy. I've had the argument with HEM when he advocating switching to a primary zone defense this year. His point was that due to two things - 1) having long athletics in Wiggins & Embiid, and 2) having defensive black holes in Tharpe & Ellis, that we were better suited for zone. My point was that if you switch your philosophy to zone this year, what do you do next year? Your "black holes" would still be there (Tharpe & Ellis), so all of a sudden one year of zone turns into two? Then by the time Tharpe has left you have a team that for the last two seasons hasn't gotten the necessary practice & experience running Self's coveted M2M defense. I think this illustration speaks to your statement about never developing consistency coaching. But pressing, mixing in zones, traps, etc. I think people just want to see us not banging our heads against a wall in games when what we are doing clearly isn't working and/or the particular match-up dictates. It doesn't mean becoming a pressing team, or a zone team. But how many times during the year do you see coaches out of a time-out switch to a zone and it confuses the hell out of the other team? We saw it last night in the Michigan game and it paid off.
Not an overhaul of the philosophy, but flexibility. Adaptation. Until these change-ups are a part of your scheme. But your comment about adapting your program to fit your players is a failure because you've put together the wrong team, I'll pose the question again, what do you do when you've put together the wrong team? When your personnel isn't ideal? Because guess what...it's not going to be ideal most years! Do you give up and stick to your guns and hope for better recruiting success and that everybody you want sticks around as long as you need them to and nobody transfers because they don't want to wait their turn and everybody returning develops at the rate you need them to? Or do you do things to try and mask your deficiencies? Do you adapt?
I'd rather Self keep his philosophy and find a true point guard that will be around three or four years and be able to teach those behind him on the bench. One that is a team leader, a defensive stopper and can run the offense
@JRyman I'd rather Self do that too. Again, my point is you might not have the luxury of having that year in, year out. So what do you do when the personnel isn't what you need? Just consider the year a throw-away and hope to recruit what you need next year? Or adjust?
I'm not saying a complete overhaul in philosophy. Just adjustments to accommodate the personnel on hand to give that team the best chance to win.
I agree on the 3-point shooter thing. I also agree with what a lot of posters have said and that is that we shouldn't be afraid of the 3-point shot, but I wouldn't build a team around that.
@Crimsonorblue22 Yes I agree about our freshman. The example of having freshman not proficient in tough M2M defense was just an example of a hypothetical situation one might encounter with personnel issues. Another might be not having wings that can penetrate the defense, or bigs that are capable passers in the high-low system.
Good responses. I tend to line up the most with @AsadZ, in that I'd like to see Self expand beyond his personal philosophies.
I was having a conversation about this issue the other day with @ralster, and his position was that Self's system has proven to be the best when executed properly with the correct personnel. My position is that you will rarely have the exact combination of personnel that you want. That goes for any coach. Recruiting misses, players leaving early via the draft or transfer, or kids not panning out. Given that the personnel will more often than not be less than ideal, the game strategy must be flexible enough to take advantage of player strengths.
This isn't to say abandon a tough M2M defensive scheme all together because you have a bunch of frosh who are a year or two away from being proficient at it. After all, Self isn't as successful as he is because he abandons his core principles on a whim. But having a few more tricks in the bag and being willing to use them can go a long way. Similarly, as "the Bill Basher" pointed out earlier, when your strongest post player is Tarik Black, maybe a high-low offense isn't the best offense against the trees of Stanford. Having more in the offensive bag than the high-low and the top of the key weave would be nice.
I would argue the program is a victim of Bill's "win every game at all costs" rather than developing players to be ready to contribute in the tournament method.
@KULA I would argue that Self did a pretty good job of developing players this year; definitely more so than in years past. True AW3 got left out, but Greene got into almost every game, and Frankamp got into quite a few. The result - Frankamp was ready to contribute in the tournament, and did so in spectacular fashion. The problem this year wasn't Self failing to develop guys, it was stubbornly relying on Tharpe who routinely crapped the bed and not turning to the guys he developed until it was too late against Stanford.
I posted this in a reply on another thread, but got to thinking and decided to give it its own thread so all posters could see and have a chance to respond:
How do we (or more accurately, how does coach Self) better position the team for success in the tourney? Certainly we've critiqued Self for some of his tournament coaching decisions, or indecisions. For his management of the rosters during the season. For his recruiting strategy. It seems that everybody was in universal agreement that a tough schedule would better prepare us, then we play the toughest schedule in the last 20 years and lose to Stanford in the round of 32. What are the answers? What is the magic combination to solve the tournament puzzle?
If we as posters had one thing we'd go to coach Self and implore him to change, what would it be? What is the most important thing we'd like to see happening?
@KULA You're right. We've been upset a lot. In this regard, I think Self is a victim of his own regular season success. which is what you really seem to have a problem with - the fact that he gets us in a position to be granted a high seed, then we don't live up to that seed. I guess then the question is this: is it better to constantly earn high seeds and be upset more often than others, because of the seed. Or is it better to sometimes go to the NIT, or earn lower seeds and when you lose it not be considered an upset?
Or more simply put, is it better to set high expectations for yourself and not meet them sometimes, or to set lower expectations and meet them? That's what we're essentially talking about. KU setting high expectations for themselves based on regular season play, and thus earning a high seed, then losing in March and having those expectations unmet.
I will agree that the offense definitely needs some adjusting.
@KULA I saw your post and thought "this guy...really?" True to form, Bill Bashing was imported from kusports. Not to say that Self is above reproach. But from your reputation it's known your opinion is that all success KU has achieved in the past 10 years has been in spite of Self, not because of him. We get it, you think Self is garbage.
As for your "all on Bill's watch", yeah other programs are pulling closer to us, and in Kentucky's case pulling further in front, but to imply that is Bill's fault is ridiculous. I mean, is it Self's fault we had a 15 year drought during Roy's tenure? Or that we had 2...freakin' 2!...before Self arrived? Given all our other accolades - all-time wins, NCAA tournament appearances, etc. - it is a failure across decades of KU coaches to not fill the trophy case with more NCAA championships. You can't lay that all at Bill's feet. Self brought us a title, and another appearance in the national title game. "Unworthy of 'keeper of the grail' ", what did any of the other coaches at KU do that was more impressive, that made them more worthy? Maybe you need to reevaluate the legacy and think about how Self compares to other KU coaches historically, then tell me he doesn't measure up.
@KUSTEVE Good illustration. 25% of the time we lose in the 2nd round, 25% in the sweet 16, 25% in the elite 8, and 25% of the time we advance to the title game, winning one and losing one. I think most of us, if asked, would say that a National title appearance twice in 8 years is acceptable. What is frustrating is that a team like the '11 team, which has advanced just as far as the UK team HEM references, is considered a disappointment because of how they lost, who they lost to, and the generally accepted notion that it was talented enough to win a national title.
This season, like it or not, UK is superior to KU
@HighEliteMajor For now I'd say that statement is true. However, should UK lose to Michigan, would you make that same statement a year from now? I mean, what is an elite 8? It is not something you hang banners for at places like UK & KU. Aside from UK fans, a year from now will anybody even remember the non-Final 4 teams in the elite 8? Maybe people will remember, only because of "40-0" talk about this team because it was supposedly the greatest recruiting class ever assembled. But if they lose Sunday, would you take a season-ending elite 8 finish or a conference championship? The elite 8 T-shirt would surely be just as worthless as the conference title T-shirts you abhor. I don't know...
Regardless, I do agree with the vast majority of your post. The question I'm interested in, is how do we (or more accurately, how does coach Self) better position the team for success in the tourney? Certainly we've critiqued Self for some of his tournament coaching decisions, or indecisions. For his management of the rosters during the season. For his recruiting strategy. It seems that everybody was in universal agreement that a tough schedule would better prepare us, then we play the toughest schedule in the last 20 years and lose to Stanford in the round of 32. What are the answers? What is the magic combination to solve the tournament puzzle?
If we as posters had one thing we'd go to coach Self and implore him to change, what would it be? What is the most important thing we'd like to see happening?
@konkeyDong Haha! Didn't see that he had left. Well let's add him to the list with Adams! There ya go Self, we found you two stud combo guards easy. You're welcome :)
@JRyman I would agree with that.
Does anybody remember Nino Jackson? He was a PG recruit on our radar a few years ago that seemed to have all kinds of issues, and I don't know that he ever ended up anywhere (a google search shows he played this last season at Loyola Marymount after spending a year at some NACA Div III school in Georgia). Adams bouncing around kind of reminds me of that guy.
Funny how the guy got labeled a cancer & a bad locker room guy. Aside from tweeting on his frustration over lack of playing time, does anybody KNOW or have any sources that he was such a cancer? I don't remember reading anything or seeing any tweets from former KU players on that team stating or insinuating as much.
@Crimsonorblue22 Why do you think that? Maybe it's true, maybe not. But why would that matter? HEM's question about Shepherd/Embiid is based on the notion of trying to win national championships. Given that this year didn't net us a national championship, why would you not trade Black for Shepherd? We know that bringing in Black didn't win us one, but a guy like Shepherd with years to develop might.
The answer is sentiment. Most of us like Black, just like I would assume most of us like Embiid. In essence my question (mainly posed to @HighEliteMajor since he brought up that he would trade Shepherd for Embiid) is would you keep Embiid or would you keep Black, assuming we could land Shepherd? I'd take Embiid all day. Not because of any personal feelings, but because of two reasons: 1) a freshman Embiid was better & more valuable than a senior Black, and 2) there was always a chance from the outset we might get more than one year out of Embiid.
@HighEliteMajor Let me pose a hypothetical for you regarding Shepherd: instead of Shepherd for Embiid swap, would you rather trade Black for Shepherd and keep Embiid? So many people omit Black from the OAD discussion. Black wasn't a presumed OAD; he was a guaranteed OAD - one and done at KU. His 3 years of Memphis mean nothing to anybody here. Nobody here fondly remembers any moments of Black's first 3 years at Memphis. The talk about Black coming in was that he was going to be Perry Ellis' best friend because he was the bruiser that would allow Ellis to do his work inside. As a senior he was presumed to be more seasoned; further along in his understanding of the college game. Then he couldn't stay on the court for more than 3 minutes at a time before picking up two fouls. He later proved to be a valuable piece off the bench, but not exactly what we thought we were getting. If Embiid leaves, we have essentially played the last season with two OADs in our big man rotation. As a senior, Black had very little room to improve as he was closer to his ceiling coming in than Embiid or Shepherd.
So...keep Embiid with a chance he stays, and if he doesn't you have some of the ancillary benefits of the "recruiting coup" as you put it and his lofty draft stock (feathers in Self's cap to use in recruiting), or Black who had no chance to come back?
@konkeyDong I was one of the vocal few who was very disappointed when Adams first lost the back-up PG duties to Naadir, and then when he transferred. Loved that guy's physical tools.
@wissoxfan83 Thanks for digging up the stats. As expected, Sherron was better. But it's important to remember that Sherron was a highly sought after 5 star recruit, whereas Mason was a 3 star recruit that initially committed to Towson. I don't think the ceiling is nearly as high for Mason as it was Sherron. Which is not to say that the rankings are the be all & end all of a player's talents & ceiling, but they are a useful guide.
@Crimsonorblue22 Penetrated & dished? I remember it more along the lines that @Wishawk described, in that he was almost standing still.
@Crimsonorblue22 You are correct from a strength standpoint. But that is just one aspect. Also, Mason's drives were almost never (can't even recall one time) designed to create for others. He gathered a head of steam and charged into the lane. That isn't all bad; we even got the reference to Tyshawn bricking so many of his driving shots and how that was a good thing in that it created offensive rebounds for his teammates. But ideally he can do both - look to score & create. Connor, while not proficient at driving the lane, was able to create offense for others during the tournament.
I look at Connor being more similar in that he seems confident and capable of running the offense, whereas Mason right now seems to operate as just a cog in the offense, not as someone leading it. Like I said, he's like freshman year Sherron. A spark plug. A "3rd down back" as I've heard it referred to before. Now if he can progress, as Sherron did to a large extent, to become more of a floor general, than he would possess most of the tools CF has plus some physical advantages.
@ralster Interesting fact about Smith, he wasn't ranked coming out of high school by either Rivals nor ESPN. Rivals listed him as a 3-star recruit.
Anyway, to your statement that "we KNOW our system is superior, if executed to its "usual" extent. We just need the right personnel." The problem is, as you illustrated, is that we don't always have the right personnel. Not for lack of trying, but sometimes you don't land who you'd like to in recruiting, sometimes guys leave or transfer, and sometimes they just don't pan out. In fact, I would say that more years than not Self (or any coach) is not going to get the exact perfect mix of personnel that he wants. So given that you will have more years without the ideal personnel, should it not be on the coach and the system to adapt to the players and their strengths? I think that is something that is frustrating a lot of fans. I'm not a fan of throwing the system out all together (some suggested going zone as our PRIMARY defense this past year), but it must be flexible, and that is the answer to your question: why mask? Because you have to, or you get torched trying to do it the same way with inadequate personnel.
Again, I'm all for drafting bigger guards. But there just aren't that many out there that are skilled enough, especially when you factor in that this is not a novel idea and that the vast majority of college coaches are trying to recruit along the same lines. And when I say there aren't that many, I mean there aren't that many to guarantee you're going to have 3-4 on your roster year in year out.
As far as Frankamp goes, I'm higher on him than you, but not through the roof sold on him. He did show up in both tournament games when Tharpe & Mason didn't. That's something. One thing that I personally can't trust anymore is the statements from fans saying things like "well he couldn't beat out Tharpe in practice, otherwise we would have seen him playing." Maybe he routinely beat out Tharpe, just like he outperformed him against Stanford, yet there Self was playing Tharpe more in the second half than Frankamp.
The thing that strikes me as odd in this whole debate is that you seem to be completely sold on Mason. I like Mason. A lot. But when you lead with Frankamp's weaknesses as "Will not get any taller" I think "well neither will Mason, who is listed as an inch shorter." Or when you say "If I was Deandre Kane or Marcus Smart (or Selden/Greene in ku practice) I'd go fade-away-J or dunk on Frankamp and Tharpe all day", I think "but not Mason, because he...?" I get it that Mason is more explosive and is stronger, but it just seems your major problem with Frankamp is his height, and I don't see how Mason is any better in that regard.
I actually think Frankamp compares more favorably to VanVleet than does Mason. Just watching him play those two tournament games, he had a confidence that he wasn't going to get ripped, his passes were crisp and had intent to them (not all of the just pass it around the perimeter types of passes that you see from Tharpe), his decision making and basketball IQ seemed infinitely higher than Tharpe and a decent amount higher than Mason. Oh, and Frankamp wasn't body bumped on that turnover. His feet got tangled with the Stanford defender. I don't care how strong you are, you get tripped, you're going down.
Right now I think Mason is more freshman year Sherron than upperclassman Sherron. He is a spark plug, but he is no where near ready to run the team yet. Which is fine, as he was only a freshman. We'll see how it shakes out over the summer. I'll be more than happy if either of CF or Mason can take the reigns from Tharpe.
@konkeyDong I guess we'll agree to disagree on the defense. I will say that I don't see Alexander coming off the bench period. If Embiid stays, I think it's Embiid/Alexander. If Embiid leaves and no Turner, it's obviously Ellis/Alexander. The interesting thing to me will be if Embiid leaves and we land Turner, will Self go with Alexander/Ellis or Alexander/Turner? I agree that Self wants defenders, but we're already talking about the possibility of displacing Tharpe, and now Ellis too? I can't fathom Self benching Perry in that situation; an upperclassman and his leading returning scorer. In that situation, Self would be starting two sophomores and three freshman (CF/Mason, Selden, Oubre, Alexander, Turner). I think at the very least we're likely to see Ellis start at the beginning of the season and if his defense wears on Self again next year than a change made mid-season.
@ralster I'm with you in that I prefer the guards with size, length, & athleticism, but didn't Louisville just win a NC starting not one but TWO guards that were an even 6' tall? I mean, if Pitino can make it work with two surely Self can figure out a way to mask 1 of them.
@konkeyDong You misunderstand. You are replacing Wiggins with Oubre = defensive downgrade. You are replacing Embiid with Alexander = defensive downgrade. Those are the starters being replaced. Even if you want to substitute Turner for Alexander on the defensive comparisons, I think it's a reach to think that Turner will be what Embiid was. I don't care what Embiid was in his class; the learning curve he was on was so unprecedented that regardless of what he did in high school, by mid-December he was so much further along than every other kid on a normal trajectory. And it is because I think that Embiid is so much better defensively than either of them will be their first year, that from a pure minutes perspective I'd take a starting Embiid plus Black off the bench and say that it's better than 40 minutes of Alexander plus Turner (or vice versa) off the bench, defensively anyway. Mainly because I would place that much importance on the starters, because you can sub strategically to where it doesn't hurt you as much. Now, if you can convince me that should Turner commit that Self would go with a Turner/Alexander starting front court, I would be 100% in agreement that it would be better defensively, as that takes Ellis and his defensive deficiencies out of the equation.
I do think we'll be better next year, as I laid out numerous reasons on another thread (I think the thread was actually "will we be better..." ). We won't lose as many games because we won't have as tough a schedule and the Big 12 might take a small step back. I just don't see a team that will still be incredibly young without any real upperclass leadership (Perry & Naadir? Ha!), without any real postseason success to draw from, to take a huge step forward from round of 32 to NC contender. I mean, you talk rankings "top 3" "top 5"...hell we were top 10 most of this year! And top 5 for parts of it. I don't care about the polls. I'll measure next year's team by where it ends up.
@konkeyDong Well you pointed out one very important "if" in next year's scenario. If Tharpe is displaced. I'm very skeptical as to that possibility. I just don't trust Bill to pull the plug on him like he needs to. This is one reason why I point to two years down the road as opposed to next year. If it happens next year, I'll be much more optimistic about our chances.
Regardless of the PG situation, here is my thinking, you're replacing Wiggins, Black, & most likely Embiid with Oubre, Alexander, & let's say Turner. To me, that's a slight downgrade. We had problems on defense all year, and we just lost our best perimeter defender & post defender. As I've stated elsewhere, Oubre seems to be a plus defender, but I don't see him at Wiggins level next year. And I don't see Alexander & Turner as being as good as Embiid & Black.
So 2/5 of the starting line-up has already taken a step back on the defensive end. After that, it depends on how you fill out the remaining 3 spots, but in most scenarios I imagine there is a slight improvement in defense. How slight depends on if Tharpe is displaced and if Ellis improves, but it could very well be a wash when coupled with the decline we see at the 3 & the 5. You expect a return to a more classic Self team of strong defenders, whereas I just don't see us being much better defensively.
I also think Mickelson will be a non-factor next year. We're just too deep for him to find minutes, especially if we bring in Turner. Alexander, Ellis, Turner, & Traylor all figure to see minutes before Mickelson, maybe Lucas too.
@Hawk8086 I think you hit the nail on the head. Could we win it next year? Possibly. But it's more likely we're looking at 2 years down the road and that's IF we only lose one or two guys to the early exit merry-go-round. I think if we land Turner, we can afford to lose one of either him or Alexander. And I think we could probably only afford to lose one of Oubre & Selden. And the thing of it to me is, the core you listed - Ellis, Greene, CF, Mason, Traylor, and I'll throw in Lucas & Mickelson as well - those all only strike me as complementary pieces. Since we're comparing to the '05-'06 team that would eventually become the '08 championship team, that core group represent the RussRobs, the Darnell Jacksons, the Sasha Kauns. They would be a great foundation, but they would not be the stars. We would need a couple of stars to emerge and stay from the Selden/Oubre/Alexander/Turner group.
@truehawk93 Sorry but Smart is garbage. Ford doing nothing only allowed Smart to reveal his true character. It would be one thing if this was Ford's M.O. - that he was notorious for having a team full of floppers. But it's not. It's something Smart consciously choose to engage in on his own. You can only point the finger at someone else so much, and even then it's a cop-out. Of course this is all to say nothing of Smart "leading" his team to two first round tournament exits. Not sure how you can prognosticate another national championship for KU with Smart on board when he couldn't get anything done at OSU.
On the other hand, I think giving Selden some minutes at the PG spot would be great. I doubt it will happen, but like you illustrated, it would be a way to get Selden, Oubre, & Greene all on the floor at the same time. Or even by sliding players down a position could open up some minutes for Perry at the 3 (something I'm not a big fan of, but people keep pushing it).
@Crimsonorblue22 @truehawk93 Word is that Oubre is a plus defender as well. He'll be a step back from Wiggins, at least initially, but should be quite a bit better than most freshman are out of the box.
The thing too in discussing potential replacements is not that we want or expect Self to go anywhere, but a "plan for the worst" mentality. The administration no doubt keeps a list for such an occasion. No harm in guessing as to whom we think might be on that list, or who we would want.