Said he might pop in from time to time here.
jaybate 1.0
10346 posts
Look at Svi chopping feet
@VailHawk
That is what he told me
Perry s t r e t c h 4
Good thinking. I hope you are right. But we have not figured out how to use the buttons on the flat screen Sammie to negotiate this new cable interface that Comcast uses.
Thx 4 catching us up on Andrew.
I will ALWAYS wonder what went on there.🤔
Andrew landed with an OKIE BALLER, so the bridge was never completely burned.
At the same time, their always seemed something stuck between Self and Andrew preventing forward progress between them.
And the Zack affair always seemed some residual part of it.
Oh well.
Andrew gets to trigger for the Huskers in the B1G.
Larry Bird made the right choice leaving Knight.
Sometimes playing for a great coach in the wrong situation is not the best move.
Go, Andrew, go!
These seem the topper on tats. 😄
Thanks for the link.
But could you believe how many African American ball players are listed on that link I gave as sporting tats in the NBA? Just imagine how much money those NBA guys have tossed on the tats.
I can hardly wait for Chris Rock to do another routine on not talkin' bout money, talkin' bout wealth and going off on the brothers for gettin' their tats.
Its an incredible body of tattooed men with mega bucks to spend shelling it out for body ink.
Utterly fascinating phenomenon.
Imagine the tattoo artists living on easy street because of the NBA players getting in the stratosphere on salaries.
Talk about an unforeseen consequence.
Screw investing in NBA franchises.
Invest in the leading tattoo artist and create the first national franchise brand for tattooing!!!!
Or does it already exist?
@drgnslayr and @Crimsonorblue22
You have no idea how happy I am to hear that it is tomorrow night!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My remote control for the big flat screen got lost today and I am hoping to get a replacement tomorrow. My big screen is stuck on a really bad movie channel.
In case I have a problem with getting the remote operational, please tell me that the game will be available on ESPN on my computer tumorrow night. I will sleep much better. I am on comcast and outside of the state of Kansas.
Awesome take. Thanks for sharing that with this old coot. Always glad to hear a young man turning a corner and some one with the right intentions helping.
I keep hoping some scientist, or dermatologist, or someone figures out a cost effective, painless, and scar free way of freeing these young men of the tatts they got when so impressionable and so subject to peer pressures and belongingness needs.
Rock Chalk to both of you.
And are we going to beat Izzo and MSU tonight?
Thought you might get a kick out of this web site that has a catalog of NBA player with tattoos and related photos.
While I like your choice of the outlandishness of the Nugget's player's tattoos for demonstrative purposes, I think these other photos perhaps capture the phenomena's central tendency a bit more.
See Paul Pierce.
!paulpierce.jpg ↗
See Terrence Williams.
!terrencewilliams4.jpg ↗
See Matt Barnes.
!mattbarnes2.jpg ↗
See Carmelo Anthony.
!carmelo3.jpg ↗
(Note: these pics are attributed to http://www.eviltattoo.com/nba.html. ↗ I have no knowledge of who took them.)
Its all very interesting.
And such a remarkably long lived phenomenon.
It has gone on long beyond the fad stage back when Michael Jordan got his ink.
And I'm not mentioning AI, because, well, because AI has already been the focus of a lot of attention.
Aw, you know, its probably just a fashion statement, right?
A player saves up his pocket money, foregoes buying a round or two at the Wheel, sells some tickets, sells ten pairs of petroshoeco shoes comped to the university under the endorsement contract, gets a night shift job for a few months, and bingo, he can afford one big tattoo.
A question nags however: where does the money come from for the rest of them?
And why get so many?
Might a club be being joined, or invested in?
Do contemporary women really require handsome,talented, multi millionaires, and or soon to be so, star basketball players to be decorated before they will go out on a date?
Aw, who cares on the day of the MSU game, anyway, right?
(Note: the above photos are posted expressly for noncommercial purposes of this reputedly non commercial web site. Any dissemination of them in any form is expressly prohibited.)
The image of the extensively tattooed Nuggets player raises a fascinating issue about the phenomenon of tattoos; that the tattoos may not necessarily be related to a player's racial culture, or to a proclivity to wear war paint to compete, so to speak, so much as indicating allegiance to some kind of deep organization that players choose to belong to in order to achieve more certain access and protection, regardless of color.
His ethnicity stands out, because there are at most a small minority of NBA and D1 players that are Caucasian American at this time.
Given that tattoos are so frequently observed on African American players, it has predisposed some to see tattoos as indicative of an African American cultural predisposition, or idiosyncrasy.
And yet gangs, and more honorable organizations, of all races and ethnicities have to my limited knowledge evidenced the wearing of colors and symbols exclusionary in their meanings.
Basketball teams of universities wear their own colors, have their own unique logos, and so on.
Social fraternities on a campus are rigorously exclusionary and some times the exclusionary criterion includes race and ethnicity and at other times not. They all have their colors and symbols.
Public service and economic organizations ranging from Shriners and Masons, to Rotary and Sertoma, and so on, have their colors and symbols.
The various military organizations are big on colors and symbols.
Religious groups are huge on colors and symbols.
So, of course, are the political parties.
And when we look at prisons, we find inmates wearing lots of ink, as basketball players now do, so that we can be confident that we can infer that different races engage in wearing tattoos. African American inmates and Caucasian American inmates both wear ink. The question is: what gang are they with? Or is it just a rebellious expression of independence?
Among prison inmates, one reputedly wears ink of differing styles to indicate association with a differing prison gang culture that provides support and security during time served. And reputedly many of these memberships on the inside carry over into membership in the gang organization on the outside.
African American inmates reputedly tend to belong to one gang.
Caucasian American inmates tend to belong to others.
It is not clear to me whether some gangs are racially mixed, but they might be, if group strategy dictated such.
Certainly not all gang cultures hinge on racial homogeneity.
Mafias are reputedly largely Irish, Jewish, Russian, or Italian, respectively in reputed membership.
But large drug and/or arms trafficking organizations reputedly may be quite eclectic in their racial and ethnic compositions.
And certainly gangs that start out narrowly based on race, or ethnicity, for membership can evolve into organizations with more diversity.
Homogeneity versus heterogeneity over the longer term most often hinges on what is most strategically beneficial to the group and individuals involved.
A question arises about this Nugget player. Is he a loner, an outlier, or is wearing ink to be part of an organization that ensures his access and security, while playing basketball for a career?
Might it be the same organization that so many African American basketball players sporting tattoos perhaps belong to?
Or is there no organization?
Why might basketball players, starting in high school, or before, then during college and the pros, need security provided them by a deep organization in basketball? Would they?
Is there anything going on in college basketball that players need protection from, or need to be recruited for after they leave the game?
Are players that do not join such a deep organization at risk for not joining?
We know there are secret organizations that are NOT conspiracies at all, just exclusionary and employ secrecy to achieve exclusivity.
We know there are other secret organizations, that may, or may not be conspiratorial, but that are, in any case, up to no good.
If you google basketball players with tattoos, you will find an impressive array of players wearing ink.
The question remains: for whom and for what reason are reputedly poor players wearing these expensive forms of expression? How are they affording them? Is is just a fad of self expression that became a normalized into a convention, as we are encouraged to assume? Or is their an organization in the background that requires members to get them?
Fascinating situation either way.
I never worry about shooting, dear @Ralster.
I instead "grow aware in a probabilistic sense" about the timing of it causing shoot backs to average to occur against good teams, like, say, MSU.
We might shoot quite well against MSU. These hot streaks, like slumps, often come in runs.
But over the course of a season, have enough hot shooting games against cup cakes and it guarantees you will have cold shooting ones against an equivalent number of very good teams.
Most things average out over the course of a season, unless you cut short the activity BEFORE the averaging out occurs, as Self did, when he opted out of the long ball from January on, after the long hot run the first third, or half, of the season.
Its just the law of averages and the clanking closed of the cell door on long ball accuracy a la "Law and Order" that concerns me.
True.
KU is deep.
But the jury is still out for me on how talented we are.
I just don't see a team rotating Landen Lucas, Jamari Traylor and Hunter Mickelson as fielding an elite caliber of talent in the paint.
We remain in my eyes a team with a lot of guns on the perimeter with a coach that doesn't much like playing through a lot of guns on the perimeter that has more experience than it did last year and so far is healthier than last year.
Good health could prove to be the most important recruit from this off season.
And I am bullish on Bragg, too, I just think he is going to have be brought along pretty slowly to keep him from being badly injured.
Sending Bragg out for 30 minutes, maybe even 20 minutes is kind of like sending Cole Aldrich out against MSU that first season that Cole started. Starting Cole against MSU was like asking Tom Izzo to have one of his mugs punch Cole's nose out the back of his head. There are just some head coaches that you don't tempt with a freshman, or a newbie to starting, early in the season.
Self had no choice but to start Cole against MSU that first season Cole started.
But he has a choice with Bragg this season and I believe he will expose Bragg to Tom Izzo only 10-15 minutes at most. If I were Self I would actually think about not allowing Bragg to play at all against MSU. People really don't appreciate how ruthless Tom Izzo is. Gregg Marshall aspires to be as ruthless as Tom Izzo; that's how ruthless Tom Izzo is.
You put a slender, gifted freshman that is not cut from the intimidator's cloth to begin with out on a floor to try to beat Izzo, or Marsha, and you will soon have a freshman unable to breath through his nose.
Playing a gentle freshman against Izzo is like sticking you chin out at Muhammad Ali and closing your eyes. He's going to hit you there and hurt you. And you aren't going to get up for awhile. And when you do you are going to wish you had not stuck your chin out and closed your eyes.
I hope Bragg doesn't play at all. He is too potentially good to expose to an almost certain punking by MSU. Protecting him one game won't appreciably delay his development. He needs several games at D1 speeds and levels of violence against lesser teams to get ready before he is ready to go up against Izzo Ball.
If he does play, he is talented enough that he will come in and make some plays once things slow down for him against MSU, and then making those plays will lead to the punking.
This is one time I would advise: just say no to the temptation, Bill.
Bill, you know you are not going to be able to help getting into a grinder with Tom.
He tweaks your manhood every time you play him, and no matter what kind of talent you have and no matter what kind of strategy would work better, you always get in to a test of basketball macho with him, because he remains the only guy that can beat you when he has less talent than you. He has your number, Bill, and pushes your buttons. So: you are going to go in and its going to default into a grinder if you are able to keep it anywhere near close. And when you bring Bragg in, he is going to punk him just as part of pushing your buttons.
Play knock down drag out if you must, Bill.
But don't let him injure Bragg for the first half of the season; that would be really stupid.
Be smart, Bill. Don't throw Bragg to the dogs before he is ready.
This isn't some normal college coach with a conscience.
This is Ratso Izzo with your number.
If you want to be macho with Ratso, do it with all your other battle hardened types.
I actually think he might do pretty well in time, if the alumni don't turn on him hoping for a Billy Bob, or a Darrell, or a Deke, that is more marketable in the great state of Tayhoss.
Shaka's problem is not that he is named Shaka. His problem is that he is from Madison, WI and Kenyon College, and not really the ethnic Southerner the Billy Bobs and Darrells and Dekes think they are getting from Clemson, Florida and Virginia Common Wealth.
When the Texans discover that the mothership university of their great state of Tayhorse is a northerner, well, there is going to be a period of learning to live together, isn't there.
When Shaka was an assistant at Clemson and Florida, he could have been from Pluto for all the fans cared.
And when he was a head coach at VCU, well, VCU basketball is not really a product critically important to the state at large. Wisconsinite Tony Bennett bears that cross right now in Virginia coaching the Cavs and he is doing pretty darned well there. So: it can be done by a northerner in the South. Heck, Dean Smith proved it long ago. But there is a distinct cultural difference between Tony Bennett and the Deaner, vs. Shaka, and again it has nothing to do with ethnicity, or names. It has to do with real culture--where you grew up.
Tony was raised in Clintonsville and Green Bay and Stevens Point Wisconsin. Dean in Emporia.
Shaka was raised in Mad Town.
Tony went to UW-Green Bay.
Shaka went to Kenyon.
Um, Tony is much closer culturally to Virginia end to end than Shaka was to Virginia, or Shaka is to Texas end to end.
As I said this difference didn't matter much at VCU, because the entire state's self esteem does not hinge on what VCU does, the way Texas esteem hinges on UT. Texans want to see themselves in their head coaches at Texas as surely as Kansans want to see themselves in their head coaches at Kansas. This is serious business at both places, Texas and Kansas. Both schools constitute the 900 pound political economic gorillas in each of their states.
Rick Barnes, even though he never got to the promised land, was a guy Texans could see themselves through and identify with, as surely as Kansans can see themselves in Bill Self and identify with him. It doesn't make any difference what part of the state of Kansas Kansans come from, even Kansans that detest KU, Kansans of all sizes, shapes, colors, and ethnicities get the Edmond Kid. They understand what the mannerisms are and what the ticks and vernaculars are. They look in his eyes and they see someone who has seen the world through the midwestern lens, regardless who his parents were and what side of the tracks he lived on. The Edmond Kid is an Okie, and there are some differences of dialect alright, but Kansans and Okies can understand each other. They both get the oil and gas. They both get the wheat and airplanes. They both get Big Ag. They both get east west differences within their states. They get the grain elevators in the west and the crisp but not overwhelming skylines of a few cities from the center to the east. They get each others jokes. Their populist uprisings coincided as did their Main Street politics. There are differences over football, but the differences are tolerable, because they both love their hoops. And its humid as hell in both places.
Shaka sooner or later has to be a guy Texans can look in the eyes of and see a guy they understand--a guy living their myth, not someone else's.
It is not impossible for Shaka to be understood. I knew several grad students born and raised in mid sized Wisconsin towns that went to Austin and taught at UT and made it their homes and were accepted finally. Some even flourished. Texas is as eclectic a culture as there is in USA these last 20 years. Texans acccept outsiders easily, if they bring the Texas vision to the table. It is a virtue of theirs. But they have to be able to find something in the immigrants eyes that says this immigrant has got the stuff of a Texan, the ambition of a Texan, the desire to do something different and exceptional as a Texan. They don't want a Californian that wants to be a Californian in Texas. They don't even want Texans that don't want to be Texans.
Shaka doesn't have to make them love him. He has to make them see a Texan in the making--a potential fellow Texan. They don't love Michael Dell. They respect him as one who did what a Texan ought to do. They never loved Darrell Royal really. They respected that Okie Darrell did what a Texan ought to do in football. For doing it they paid him their highest honor. The hung his name on the stadium. And so made him the Texas equivalent of a Saint.
They finally lost faith in Rick Barnes, because Southern though he was, he just finally lost his Texas sized ambition to land a Durant and put it to KU and win a ring.
Down at TTech, or TAM, or Baylor, it doesn't matter so much what they see in your eyes, because the prestige and self esteem of Texas are not riding on those schools. Only pieces of such things are riding on those schools. But at Texas, well, Texans may laugh and be boisterously irreverent about the problems of Texas football, or basketball, but underneath there is a high seriousness about that school and its role in carrying Texas' heritage that cannot be underestimated. The oil men didn't endow it with oil reserves to exceed Harvard just for the hell of it once upon a time. The eyes of Texas really are upon it.
I like to see most persons succeed. The only ones that I don't like to see succeed are jerks. Shaka I don't view as a jerk, so much as an ambitious bright kid from Madison trying to make it in the greatest game ever invented. Ambition is good in Texas, if it comes in a flavor that Texans like the taste of. Shaka might make it, but not if he can't win some conference titles of the kind he didn't win at modest VCU.
He is a long shot and I sure as hell don't want him succeeding at our expense.
But he has a slim chance.
I have my bones to pick with Texas.
But on the whole I like Texans that want to act like Texans and do the great things Texans aspire to do.
I love some of their boats and boat builders.
I like that they keep my car running and lubricated.
But I can do without the beedy eyed ones that just want to score another trillion by knocking over another tin pot dictator the CIA installed for them 20 years before so they can step in and form the Trade Bank of Whererever and secure loans from their friends made to the new gubmint at exorbitant interest rates collateralized by that oil under whereever.
Y'all see what I'm sayin'?
Agreed. It would seem the only way Cliff and his lawyer would walk quietly away from that situation would be if someone made it worth Cliff and his attorney to walk away.
Might it already have happened, since the silence is deafening?
Holy Cow, that young man filled out!!!
Talk about a guy that we could have used!
Glad he survived and is on track at law school.
One question: how did he afford all of those tats?
@REHawk said:
Gotta play a 25 second clock vs. the Spartans, keep their elbows at 160 degree extension, tongues to toes.
That's a very interesting approach to beating MSU. It makes sense, of course, though I wouldn't have thought of it.
The question is will Self show up as usual wanting to play it anyway they want?
His tendency is clearly to play it anyway they want.
This MSU game will go a long way to telling us how weak, or strong, he expects his front court become.
If he thinks its weak, and not able to be developed into a dominant front court, I think he will shift gears and do what you say.
But if he thinks this bunch can be manned up and developed into a toe to toe type front court, then I think we will see play it anyway they want.
I suspected Jam Tray had it in him to look better than last season, when he was injured, and last summer, when he was also reputedly injured.
I suspect the offensive end of the floor is where he will appear the most improved, so long as he remains healthy. Why? Because two seasons ago, when not injured, he began to show the ability to drive the lane a few times. Next, because last season, when not injured, he began to show the ability to sink a 17 footer a few times. All a player with Jam Tray's athleticism needs on offense is a drive move and a credible 17 footer and he becomes a credible offensive threat that players have to guard, but not too tight.
Offense, IMHO, is skills that a lot of time and work tend to develop to adequacy.
Defense is something that requires desire, and also requires a lot of concentration on top of the physicality and athleticism needed. Desire is innate. Concentration can evolve from neural nets growing together. It can also be improved in modest increments with practice and a sports psychologist. Concentration only improves by small increments with practice and a sports psychologist. The big leaps in concentration come from maturing and natural brain development. I grew skeptical about Jam Trays' capacity for significant improvement, because by a junior season one would expect that big leap in neural net grow in to have occurred already. But there are always outliers. We can keep our fingers crossed that his have grown in over the last six months and he is now a lean, mean defensive machine.
Rebounding is the rub. I've just never seen it "grow in." But that doesn't mean it can't. There are always anomalies. And Self has bet right a whole lotta times on terrible looking young players "maturing" into very good mature players. Its is one of Self's great strengths as a coach.
Thus there are a lot of ifs with Traylor entering his last season that don't make me want to bet on him, but Traylor has one big thing in his advantage. He has one of the smartest coaches around regarding maturation believing and betting the farm on him developing with maturity.
Go, Jam, go!!!!!!
A tightly called game/season has tended to put Izzo and MSU at a disadvantage in terms of wins and losses during the Izzo era.
Ratso appears to tend not to do as well during periods, when attempts are being made to clean up the game.
It is the same for Roy, in periods when "let'em play" is prevailing. Let'em play means the thug ballers get to use uneccessary, often egregious, physical contact to achieve competitive advantage. The great athleticism and skill that Roy tends to recruit is hand cuffed by bang ball that goes uncalled for 40 minutes, or for a season.
Roy thrives during the clean up eras.
Ratso thrives during the Let'em play eras.
Self, probably consciously, has evolved a style of play I call play it any way they want, which means KU is neither a Thug Ball team, or a Speed Ball team. Self recruits guys that are not the best thug ballers, nor are they the best race horses. Rather, they are the rare breed that with a lot of work have the unusual characters and temperaments to be able to play both ways. This means that Self's teams thrive in the transitions years between the extremes IMHO.
All three approaches have strengths and vulnerabilities.
And all three approaches have stretches of seasons wherein their style is not the most conducive to winning big, unless they have wildly superior talent.
Always good to see Texas lose, of course.
And Shaka taking an L to start with, well, it does not burnish his rep.
But in Maxwell's defense, Agent 99, he was opening up with a real team in Washington, rather than the University of Northern Colorado. Washington is probably decent this season under Lorenzo Romar, as it has been in recent years. Am I right to assume it was University of Washington up Seattle way, and not Washington University of St. Louis? :-)
I can't speak for others, but I sometimes use the term thug ball as a colorful colloquialism referring to the use of unnecessary, sometimes egregiously so, physical contact as intimidation in pursuit of competitive advantage that over time tends to drag others down into to playing more this way, and so over time contributes to the degradation of the non contact virtues of the game; NOT as a criminal allegation.
I also sometimes use it to characterize a coach that reputedly has his players wear football helmets and shoulder pads in practice to start the season, and reputedly once in awhile afterwards, most seasons, apparently to try to encourage them toward playing the game rougher.
I also use it to characterize a coach that appears to coach teams that over the years tend to use unnecessary physical contact early and first in games in order to set the tone of the game as a physical match up.
I also use thug ballers to refer to the intentional exploiting of a tendency of some referees reputed "let'em play" philosophy and reputed willingness to swallow their whistles at times during games, and especially during the NCAA tournament.
I also use it to describe teams that over time anecdotally appear to win more during years when the refs are letting'em play than in years when refs are tightening up the way the game is called.
I also sometimes use the term butcher ballers, XTReme Muscle Ballers, bang ballers, etc.
Use of egregiously unnecessary contact in pursuit of competitive advantage appears to coarsen the game and appears to lead to unnecessary violence and unnecessary injuries stemming from that apparently unnecessary contact and apparently unnecessary violence.
Characterizing a coach and team as thug ballers, etc., usually hinges in my usage on my anecdotal perception over a period of time, usually a few seasons, of tendency, degree, frequency of observable use (note: I suspect we cannot always see from a television camera's vantage point when it is and is not being done), and frequency of appearance of initiating such style of play in a game, rather than frequency of appearance of reacting to it.
Hope that helps you understand the meaning and use of the term in regards to Tom Izzo and MSU, and may be even encourages you to support cleaning up the game so athleticism and skill can determine who wins games, rather than thug ball strategy and tactics.
Rock Chalk!
All teams, those that win rings and those that do not, have flaws, so the mere presence of undefined flaws is logically immaterial to this discussion of my argument, of course.
What is important all the time, but increasingly decisive as the match up advantages over opponents lessen over time in the tournament is the edge in competitive greatness. Who is at their best, or nearest their best, when their best is needed?
But because your heart is in the right place, and we need to unite and direct our grapes of wrath on Ratso Izzo and his tire iron wielding Michigan State Spartans, I am going to make an exception in my discourse here.
Until after the MSU game, you get to assume this metaphysical, improbablistic universe all you want, without me noting its departures from a real, probabilistic one.
Until time runs out against MSU, by god, there isn't a guy on that 2008 ring team that could have held Jamari Traylor's jock strap, much less beat him out of the starting rotation.
Così è (se vi pare) (So It Is (If You Think So))--Luigi Pirandello
Rock Chalk!
Are 57.7% on 26 treys hot enough and frequent enough for all you shoot from the hip and win with the three types?
Is Perry scoring 16 points in 20 minutes on 5-7 from the field and 6-6 from the line good enough for the efficiency freaks?
How about the Committee of the Five (Lucas, Traylor, Mickelson) combining for 18 points, 17 rebounds and 3 blocks? Does that give pivot junkies postal pride? Would you be floating kite high about now if Cole, Kieff, Jeff, or Joel had a game like that, even against a cupcake?
Okay, okay, I have now filled the milk pitcher to the brim.
Alas, I would be remiss if I did not add to nature's most perfect food a small floater--some waste matter if you will--in the milk pitcher--for the coach-aka @REHawk,--for his amusement and angst==for it is he who has rightly noted that I occasionally can portray the positive and negative tails of distributions in short order: our fine players have accomplished a terrible beauty. They have shot 57.7% from trifectaville--against a cupcake--the game BEFORE a game with a nationally ranked team--a team of hard nose thug ballers--a team coached by a Jud Heathcote disciple--a team coached by and an admittedly great thug ball coach--one Ratso Izzo. Our fine KU players have wasted a great shooting night on, well, on the University of Northern Colorado--aka the Greely Cupcakes--coached by a Tad Boyle disciple--and so among our distant hereditory family. Our boys did this, when they might instead have used this 57.7% mixture fuel-air trey bomb of a shooting clinic to hammer one of the vilest enemies of our right way realm in the next game. Such is the unpredictability of trey balling that has lead our erstwhile Head Coach, William Self, on more than a few occasions, to question the merit of this means of scoring--to speak of fools gold--of iron pyrite.
What our fine players did was tantamount to USA dropping its last working nuke on ISIL, before going to war with Russia and China for control of the Trans Eurasian Super Corridor and the Texas Tea and NG under the Karim Basin that Jimmah Baker and the Petroleo Clubbers appear so desirous of getting hold of that they are apparently running ALL Republican candidates for President so they can be sure to call the shots on Pennsylvania Avenue once again and ply a little regime change action on Moscow one day soon, while the rest of us get our hair mussed with a whole potpourri of top secret weapons we don't even know the nature of yet. But I digress.
Heaven help us if KU's hard wood snipers shoot back to their average against Ratso.
I can just bet that the minute Ratso's graduate assistant showed him the KU-UNorCol box score, well, Ratso broke out into that big rodent-y grin of his, you know, the slit eyed, and teeth like densely packed, calcified, double edged safety razor blades stacked on end between thin lips stretched and exposing teeth ready to gnash and tear at a mythical bird.
Let us hope the boys have been working out in their helmets and shoulder pads and mouth pieces to get ready for MSU, which most certainly has been.
Let's also hope they wait a game to shoot back to their averages.
Rock Chalk!!!
@Texas-Hawk-10 said:
One flaw with this premise is comparing this team with an incomplete body of work this season against a team that won a national title and we know what they accomplished during that season so any comparison at this point is purely speculative until we start to see what this team is actually capable of.
Its really not a flaw at all, of course.
For example, you don't seriously think Carlton Bragg is probably going to improve so much this freshman season that he is going to be better than Shady, after two seasons, DBlock after four, Kaun after four, do you?
Carlton Bragg might improve enough the season, since he will get quite a few minutes because of how weak our other bigs are, that he will improve more than Aldrich did his freshman season on the ring team, but Cole wasn't part of the top seven I was referring to, of course.
I can go down the list if you like.
Frank better after three than Russell after four?
Devonte better after two than Mario after four?
Selden better after three than Brandon Rush after four?
6-6 to 6-7 Perry better in the paint after four than 6-9 NBA Shady after two, who was drafted after two?
Landen Lucas better after 3 than DBlock after 4?
Bragg after one than Kaun after four? Maybe if Bragg has one of the greatest freshman seasons in KU history, but even then could he seriously have moved Kaun out of the rotation, when Self is starting him behind Lucas, and Jamari Traylor and Hunter Mickelson? Who could Bragg bump, really, in a probabilistic universe? Not Shady. Could his touch and skinny body have actually displaced DBlock, who brought muscular athleticism sufficient to be drafted? That leaves Kaun. Kaun had two bad knees his last season. He could barely jump. He got few rebounds. But he was the enforcer. He was the guy who could muscle with any post man no matter how big and strong. Kaun was so good on his two bad knees that he was drafted by the NBA. Will skinny freshman Carlton actually be able to guard the post and bang in the paint better than senior Kaun could have? Will skinny freshman Bragg with the good touch play so well this season that he will be drafted after one season? Is probability seriously on your side?
Svi who could not even get on the floor most of the seasons is better after two than Sherron who was the number one sub his freshman season after one?
Hmmmm.
I think you have a very, very, VERY tough sell here. And asserting flaws does not obscure how tough of a sell you have.
Oh, and, by the way, there just isn't a flaw.
The premise is based on probabilistic expectations of what this years players will probably do, what they can reasonably be expected to do,
If you want to argue that--improbably speaking--some of this year's bigs, say, like Jamari Traylor, could super nova into playing like lottery picks, well, then you would be very persuasive. Out at the extreme tail of Jamari's probability distribution, Traylor MIGHT play so much better that he would beat out DBlock, or Kaun, or Shady, all of whom were drafted by the NBA. But that is an argument exploring improbability.
Let's say Perry is drafted as high as Shady, which is very optimistic. Do you think it is probable that two of Landen, Jamari, and Bragg will also be drafted by the NBA after this season? In a metaphysical universe where improbability holds, maybe.
But in a probabilistic look forward in our real universe? Probably not.
My argument is an exploration of probability.
It is not fallacious to explore probabilistic eventualities; i.e., future scenarios, and to compare them with actualities, so long as one acknowledges reasonable variance in foreseeable outcome.
I for one am assuming reasonable variances of outcome...not improbable variances of outcome.
Ah sweet methodology.
I used to look at it this way; that there were national titles KU blew.
But over time watching and studying more and more NCAA champions, the more it became clear to me that greatly talented teams that seem like they had a good shot at the ring, but that didn't win the ring lacked some aspect of what champions require.
If talent alone, relative to those remaining in the tournament at any given time, were the decisive element of winning titles, the most talented teams would never lose.
And if hot shooting determined everything, the teams with the best shooters would tend to win most of the time. But they don't.
The teams that win most of the time are usually "among" the most talented teams of a season, but not necessarily the "most" talented.
The teams that win most of the time are among the most talented teams that draw the fewest mismatches and are most effective at finding ways to compensate for the mismatches that inevitably arise.
The teams that win most of the time do the above, while playing stingy defense, rebounding well, and find ways to score on opponents that opponents finally cannot find ways to stop.
But among all the small number of teams each season that can and do do all of the above, the teams that usually win the title evidence competitive greatness in excess of any other team that season in that six game stretch.
Competitive greatness was the capstone of Wooden's pyramid of success for a reason.
Wooden knew that competitive greatness was the final decider among teams that had everything else. And he knew that when you got deep in the NCAA tournament, or perhaps back in his day when you simply got in the tournament, you were facing teams that had most of the things I described above that teams that usually win the tournament have. So: when it comes down to single elimination every game for several games in a row, competitive greatness is the great advantage that overcomes the off shooting nights, the occassional mismatches, the occassional bad calls, the occasional sicknesses and injuries, NOT DEFENSE alone.
If there were any single thing I would change about Bill Self it would be his emphasis on defense being the foundation of winning.
Defense is the foundation of winning.
But foundations are exactly that: foundations and nothing more.
All the stories above the foundation are just as necessary to building a skyscraper. All the layers of blocks in Wooden's pyramid are just as important as the foundation.
The foundation may even be said to lay the ground work for correct building of all that goes above. Fine.
But in the Final Game of the season among two comparably talented teams,with comparable foundations, it is NOT the foundation that decides the winner.
Competitive greatness decides the winner of each game of the tournament and as the teams converge in foundations and talent and skill, competitive greatness becomes more and more decisive.
The foundation enables one to build the tallest skyscraper, or the tallest pyramid.
But there is no substitute for the floors in between the foundation and the top and, when all is said and done, when two great teams meet foundation on defense, the team with more competitive greatness prevails.
And when a great defensive team and middling competitive greatness meets a team with another kind of properly laid foundation and more competitive greatness, guess who wins?
There are many ways to build a good foundation for a building.
But there is no substitute for competitive greatness.
With my philosophy as I have elucidated it here, its clear that all of those exceptionally talented KU teams with their sound foundations laid by their fine coaches, ultimately lacked sufficient competitive greatness to rise to meet challenges that champions must me.
Therefore, those teams you mention did not blow winning championships.
They lacked the crucial ingredient required to be champions.
There is a huge difference.
(Author here--RIP DFW: I owe a debt of gratitude to everyone that responded from their innards to my intentionally astringent post about no one on this year's KU team perhaps being good enough to break into the rotation on the '08 KU champion. But I owe a special thanks to HEM who said something that opened up a vein in me I was not yet aware of.)
@HighEliteMajor said:
The key is a relative comparison. How does Kansas shape up against the competition in men’s CBB this season?
This is a good discussion as it does give perspective here, as noted above.
I would say this, too – chemistry is a big deal.
This is a good way of looking at it. I did not rule out this team winning a ring. I said it would take this team transforming into a team of giant killers. Giant killers happen sometimes. It is why the myth of the giant killer came into being no doubt back long before stories were written down as David and Goliath, or Jack the Giant Killer, etc.
Often giant killers in basketball are reductively described as teams that get hot in March, as if shooting well were all it took for a team with lesser talent on paper to transcend itself and become a team that cannot be beaten for six games. Just "getting hot" neither captures, nor does justice to, the phenomenon of "giant killer syndrome," which I so hope this year's team contracts thoroughly.
(Note: syndrome is a word for what is clearly evidenced, whether rarely, or frequently, but which we cannot yet be satisfactorily explain with rational empiricism.)
Your word chemistry is a big part of it, particularly if used consciously as a team macro. I happen to believe that many, if not all, giant killers in March Madness actually have had quite a bit of talent all along, but the chemistry thing finally kicks in at some point and transmogrifies the team into being able to use effectively the talent that is has long been struggling to use to greatest effect. Still, the true giant killer isn't as good on paper, as the giant. Smarter? Usually. More opportunistic? Yes. Hotter? Yes. Luckier? Definitely. More mentally tough? Most definitely.
But as talented? Never. Or they would not be giant killers, would they?
Three exemplary giant killers come quickly to my mind, though I am sure others will add others.
Texas Western Miners--Okie Baller Don Haskins' original wild bunch on the Rio Grande. Lost in the racial pioneers story line (note: they were only pioneers in the sense of finally winning a ring with an all African American starting five, and made dramatic and memorable, and heroic, by being pitted by chance, in the Finals against what was already, by then, a racial anachronism in much of the country--an all Caucasian American starting five), was that Bobbie Joe Hill, Neville the Shadow Shed, Big Dave Latin, etc. did not go on to be Hall of Famers, or even All Stars in the NBA. The real wonder of Texas Western was not their color distribution--black starters, white rotation players; rather, it was the phenomenal way this team transmogrified from what it was early in the season into the team of giant killers it became down the stretch. And anyone that cares about historical accuracy, and that wants to rise above race, needs to remember that Haskins rational coaching job really involved re-mixing his starters and rotation second stringers eventually in a way that happened to yield color distributions that conflicted with then prevailing prejudices and expectations of what proportions of color could play well together and in reserve. Haskins to his eternal credit did not bench whites because they were white and play blacks because they were black. He was like all hard scrabble Okie Ballers looking for the magical, opportunistic mixture of impact players and glue players and rotating role players that yielded a great defensive team that could make impact offensive plays and so become greater than the sum of its parts. It involved a great coach--one of the three great apostles of Iba--working with far from the most talented team in America and partly stumbling into a magical mix (if you can call what Haskins, Eddie, Hartman, and now Bill do stumbling) of what talent he had that enabled his rotation to go through the alchemical transformation of all great Giant Killers. Haskins search for the five that worked best together starting and the short bench of subs that worked the best in substitution (sound familiar?) also brought a team of young men not only into efficient basketball dynamics, but into harmonic vibration with a path dependent pivot point of basketball historical process that had commenced in 1947, when John Wooden, also strongly influenced by Iba, crossed the racist color line at Indiana State down near the grits curtin in Indiana , and others like Kansas had quickly followed to reinforce.
(Note: For those too young to recall--most of us--and too busy to seek basketball historical literacy--too many I fear [because of our too hectic lives and some "it wasn't me that done it" indifference], there were apparently black basketball players in the early days of pro basketball in the naught decade of the 20th Century in some white dominated pro basketball leagues and barnstorming teams, just as there were some black bicyclists at the time in professional cycling, and some black race car drivers in professional car racing, and so on. Segregation was never monolithically rigid on the historical timeline. Thinking it was is the kind of reductive thinking that helps contempo thinkers stay ignorant of the underlying dynamics of the evil that can always flow again if we are not vigilant. The dynamic flows when it is used as a means to power. It ebbs when not. Segregation's evil, underpinned always by the asymmetric economic net benefits of exclusion, and enabled by prejudice indoctrinated into the excluding class toward the excluded class by the private oligarchy, i.e., the whites being taught to hate and embrace segregating the blacks and being rewarded with more jobs for doing so; plus by the strategic net benefits to the private oligarchy of dividing whites and blacks and so conquering them by keeping both races from uniting to oppose the private oligarchy, which in skin pigment has always appeared white, but which we learn increasingly in reality was the color of money possessed at the level of wealth [not talkin' bout money, as Chris Rock so aptly noted, talkin' bout wealth], has had some tidal characteristics, ebbing and flowing; though to be emphatic, its flows up and in have taken up far more time than its ebbs have gone down and out. Dig?)
The Miners of Don Haskins famous win in the public's memory remains, as reinforced by the movie, its defeat of the segregated University of Kentucky team. But that Kentucky team, in part because of the talent its own racism denied it, was hardly the best team that year. It was hardly the biggest giant that Haskin's Miners slayed.
KU was the great, talented giant that season. KU with Jo Jo White and Walt Wesley, both of whom went on to extended NBA careers. But it was especially Jo Jo White, the Future NBA All-Star, NBA champion, and Hall of Famer that made KU a giant dwarfing UK. KU that season without doubt would have beaten UK to a bloody pulp, where as Haskin and his giant killing Miners merely beat them soundly. And I mentioned above that one of the key elements of giant killers is luck when luck is needed. Jo Jo making a game winning basket in bounds and being called out of bounds, or if you prefer making a game winning basket with a foot out of bounds, is luck of a giant killing order. The Miners were the ultimate Giant Killers, and only secondarily race pioneers. And I believe characterizing them this way does them the great, great justice this heroic team has always deserved. I hated them once for beating my Hawks. But there is no shame in losing to Giant Killers, only heart break. Shizz and giant killers happen.
KU in 1988--Larry Brown's great 1988 national champion is proof positive that Giant Killers can be misunderstood as not very talented--just hot. A team with Danny Manning on it was by definition one of the most talented teams in the country that season. But add in Kevin Pritchard at point and the rest of the rotation and it was only lacking in talent in the same sense that Texas Western was not the most talented team of that season; which is to say it did not have oodles of future NBA players on the team, just Danny and Pritch, and maybe one, or two, more that I now forget that may have had short NBA careers also. That 1988 team had great COLLEGE basketball players. It had great impact players like Manning and Pritch, and it had great glue men like Pipe and Newton. It had guys that could do the long laundry list of what needed to be done to play great college basketball for six straight games. And it would likely have had a sparkling regular season record, instead of double digit losses, had it not been periodically destabilized by injuries to crucial players. One way of putting the talent level of that '88 team in perspective was that it was so deep that it could have a worse rash of season ending injuries than probably any other team in America that season and STILL come together in March in seven players that could pretty much kick the asses of six straight opponents, and taking their names later on the champions podium. The '88 Jayhawks would have been the giant had injuries not decimated them. The miracle of Danny and the Miracles was NOT a Cinderella fairy tale. It was a giant killer myth. The team LITERALLY did transmogrify over the course of the season and literally did turn into a giant killer. Still awesome to think about what Larry and his players did that season...after all these years.
Finally, UConn two season ago--Kevin Ollie experienced the transmogrification before his rookie coaching eyes. He had one great COLLEGE point guard that proved not to be a great pro. He had a lot of other good COLLEGE players, but not a dump truck load of OADs, or 5 stars. His team contracted Giant Killer Syndrome and Kevin Ollie, who learned his game from two great coaches--Larry Brown and Jim Calhoun--two coaches with authority issues about those above them--Kevin Ollie coached, and coaxed, and lead and followed and inspired and was inspired by, and held tight reigns, and let go of the reigns, and did everything in between for a magical March Run, became the coach of a Giant Killing National Champion. I had a hard time loving UConn, because of all the shizz that Calhoun had pulled late in his career, but once I could let go of Calhoun and see Ollie for Ollie, and his magnificient young men for the Giant Killers that they became, I could finally love them unconditionally for denying one of Caliper's stacks a ring and for yielding one more basketball Giant Killer in my time on this mortal coil.
There were a few others. LaRue Martin's Loyola Ramblers. Howard Porter's Villanova team, though there was some corruption there. Maybe even Jimmy V's Wolfpack team, though looking back it was pretty talented. But that's still not too many in 55 years of watching the game. Giant Killers are rare birds among NCAA champions, which are themselves rare birds. Maybe the only thing rarer than a Giant Killer is the perfect teams--the undefeated national champions--a couple of UCLA teams, and Indiana's '76 bunch.
My god! My god!
I am so lucky to have lived on this earth in the age of the Greatest Game Ever Invented.
To think I could have been born for hundreds of thousands of years of homo sapiens before the game and have missed it; had I not come along near mid 20th Century.
Thank you, basketball god.
Thank you.
I just go where logic leads.
I am its instrument sometimes and not the other way around. :innocent:
Glad to hear some optimism on Svi.
I've been losing my religion on him lately.
Devonte and Frank are a dandy pair, but not up to Rr and Mario standards yet IMHO YET.
No, Harry, I am Voldemorte!
Seems a wash to me.
Howling!
Frank is better with the afterburner and the Trey. But for Self treys are iron pyrite and defense is gold bullion.
Any game with Durant.
The Beasly-Huggins KSU games.
EVERY RATSO IZZO GAME.
That tourney game with Painter and Purdue.
MU games with Anderson.
Ooh, you went for my Achilles there. I view Frank as a potential Nate Archibald /Steve Nash type that could get way better in the pros.
But so far?
Mano a mano?
In college?
Under Self?
Self would opt for Russell's wreaking havok defense every time.
I don't see Perry scoring on Shady, DBlock, or Kaun. They would all punk him if he tried those spin moves. Beat one out? Not!
Calling the game tighter always favors athleticism and skill.
Letting'em play always favors muscle and intimidation.
That 2008 team was sharply more athletic and skilled, underneath all the muscle it added after 4 years of weight training, than this team is.
RR and Mario had such superior athleticism that their margin of advantage in defense over all the muscle ballers then and now would be even greater if those muscle ballers had to lean up for no touch.
RR and Mario were superior defenders, because of athleticism, long legs, short torsos, long arms, quick hands, .lightening quickness, great anticipation and balls so big Self wanted them no where near his daughter. And we're not even mentioning Sherron, when he was still explosive!
I like this year's perimeter and see it as a strength, but not one of them could have beat out those three and Rush under any rules. Those guys were too good for this year's guys.
And who would Perry beat out in the front court? And Perry would be the only one remotely far enough along in development this season to even mention as not being quite good enough. The rest of the guys couldn't even come close. Bragg 2 to 3 years from now might be as good as Shady was, but not now.
And while there won't likely be a team as mature and talented as that 08 team anywhere in D1 this season, stacking assures there will be one or two Nike schools in 4 of the five power conferences that will have as much, or more talent as the 08 KU team had, just not as developed. And so this year's team is going to be trying to matchup with the same level of talent as that 08 team had down the stretch of the tourney. Experience can offset some talent, but there are limits to that sort of thing.
The question in the title seems to be the crucial question for those wondering if this team could win a ring.
I do not think a single player on this team could move cracked the first seven rotations spots on the 08 team. .
Since most seasons the national champion is among the most talented teams, it would seem necessary for there to be a sharp talent deficit in Division I for this team to have a strong probability of winning the national championship, even if it were to stay healthy and even if it were to stay healthy and get. hot.
This team would have to be the very rare team of over achieving giant killers without a single superstar that wins a ring.
This is good and bad.
Haase is acting in enlightened self interest toward the program's players.
He knows he can't get ahead with fewer players.
He knows it is better give $46k and deduct a third of it to net out at $30K out of pocket, than lose his head coaching salary, because he goes 0-fer when his good players leave for schools that will pay them.
He knows his coaching future depends on keeping what good players he has.
And if he just payed his own players, the Uncle Sam might not necessarily view donation as a tax deductible donation. It might view it as a pay cut by the school to finance paying for its other obligations. Hence, the donation to mens and women's teams.
On the other hand, what this means is that there is a serious solvency crisis among NCAA programs among the mid majors that are not getting the beau coup bucks from the PetroShoeCos and that means that the influence of the PetroShoeCos is going to grow exponentially as the pinch is felt deeper and deeper and more and more NCAA programs knuckle under to total subordination to the PetroShoeCos, or get out of the game entirely at the D1 level.
Insolvency is bad for basketball.
It makes it more and more beholden to whom ever will write the big checks to bail it out.
This is how the bad guys get in control of stuff they shouldn't be allowed to get in control of.
Haase is delaying the reckoning.
Let's hope UAB can find a way to afford D1 ball, that does not involve selling out to the wrong way guys.
Go, Jerrod, go.
Memphis will become a winner if he stays there three years.
@KU-Flyer said:
there was no documentation of his Algebra grade in high school because they actually do Algebra in junior high in his country.
PHOF!
@BeddieKU23 et al,
Class, Professor jay von Bate 1.0 welcomes you to class this fine autumn day, and presents you with a pop quiz with this single multiple choice question.
Question: De facto suspensions continuing past the first exhibition appear to result predominantly, when:
a.) the NCAA cannot find what documents it wants to find;
b.) the NCAA cannot get the information that it wants to get;
c.) the player plays for an adidas contracted school; or
d.) a and c;
e.) b and c; or
f.) all of the above?
Please post your answer as you leave the virtual classroom to proceed to the fun part of your lives.
Rock Chalk!!!
:-)
One can feel two heavy weights that have been circling each other through the early rounds beginning to cut off the ring. There is a sense of closing in to commence the real fight.
There will be blood.
I hope someone really good is looking after Cheick.
There appears so much more here at stake than just one young basketball player, though in the final analysis he is the only thing that should really matter here to any decent person.
His individual clearance issue appears to be the incident that two huge opponents may use to start fighting a war both have been looking to engage in for quite some time.
Pray for Cheick.
Everyone else will fare well collecting fees in this fight.
But a college freshman only a few years in America?
We KU fans loyal to the legacy should become the voice of conscience in defense of him, for I fear no one else will be thinking much about that should the gloves come off.
There appears too much money at stake to put one young man first.
Oh, yes, basketball...um, I will be watching the rank order of committee substitutions at the 5, and also for a brief showing of the Good Ball, quick trigger offence from Korea, to give early opponents more to prepare for.
And when is Jeff bringing back his highly intelligent woman friend?
You forgot to mention Olivis Wilde!
Is the pope a progressive Catholic?
We are so fortunate not to have to be associated with MU in any way any more.
Except perhaps for the recent posts favoring ideograms that spell crystal meth in the Missourah Dialect of Chinese. 😄