@Careful you
Yep, It was a long time ago now. It was said that Hartman hated recruiting so much he just focused on a few good guys and then signed nobodies quickly for the rest, so he could be home with the wife. 😄
jaybate 1.0
10346 posts
People said Noah and Horford would never come back to win a second ring for Florida.
Nothing is written.
Improbable yes.
Written no.
Had to go on the road for awhile and scheduling put me in the air during the last two games. Hopefully, no more of that! But as Vail said elsewhere, KU's defense seemed to improve with out me. 😃
I'm not touching that one with a, uh, a, uh, well, you know.
~Hmmm, we couldn't beat them in Norman, so why even prepare a game plan for Lawrence?
~Self Beat Texas by a bunch and his team only shot 30% from trey. Check job openings outside B12.
~Okie Ball, Schmokie Ball, I want some players like Bill has.
~Hartman could win with guys like me, but I can't.
~Going to Lawrence. This is going to be a total eclipse of the fun.
~Maybe it will snow and the flights will be canceled.
~I should have stayed in Silver Lake.
~One eye brow, or two, I still can't beat this guy, when he's got the next two Number One draft choices on one team!
~Consider retirement.
(Note: all satire. No malice.)
~Show them the 1988 National Championship Trophy.
~Ask them how in the heck their Wikipedia page doesn't mention former head coaches Bruce Drake, who invented the shuffle offense, and Doyle Parrack, one of the greatest legends of Oklahoma hard scrabble basketball?
~Ask them if Alvan Adams ever put on any weight, or lost the dark circles under his eyes?
~Tell them how great it was that they had Dave Bliss before he became a poster boy for much that was wrong in coaching, while at SMU.
~Tell them how lucky they are to have had a guy named Gar in their hall of fame.
~Ask them if Billy Tubbs was fired, because he distracted them from football, or was it that he was too high brow?
~Mention that Kelvin Sampson just called.
~Note in passing that probably no one but Jeff Capel III could have botched having Blake Griffin.
~Mention that if OU were to win in Lawrence, KU would only lead the series in Lawrence 69-17.
~Remind them that Lon Kruger aka "The Wandering Gentile," has left almost as many places for greener pastures as has Larry Brown.
(Note: just a bunch of satire. No malice.)
True or False: Manute Bol has the longest thighs in human history.
Me too.
(Warning: Coarse, vulgar, insensitive wit follows. Do not read unless you loath UT, since the uncalled throw down of a KU player in Austin)
~Run over them with an asphalt roller and call them Texas nano frisbees.
~Pound Longhorn Oysters with a meat tenderizer and sell them to Austin restaurant chefs as Longhorn Scaloppini to be sauted and then served with a chili marsala sauce and wrapped in a Longhorn hide taco.
~Shred one Longhorn oyster on a French mandolin and toss shredded oyster with balsamic barbecue sauce and call it a Texas Pasture Salad.
~Sun dry one half Longhorn oyster, sew a mouse felt brim to it and call it a Texas Trilby.
~Grind up Longhorn oysters and mix with alcohol from corn and call it Testehol (don't mention the low energy density).
~Paint them orange and take them to a skeet shooting range and sell them as Texas clay pidgeons.
~Cut them into 0-rings and sell them as Texas breath mints.
(Note: All fiction. No malice.)
I'm not either.
How about: a picture of a steaming pile of Longhorn dung with the caption: "Here Lies Texas".
I think behind the metaphor, this is an especially penetrating insight and next step; at least on a par with your tempo insight prior to UT.
Many people forget that the real point of playing the hi-lo beyond its relative simplicity and capacity for being used as the same offense for m2m and zone defenses, is that it enables a variety of two, or 3 man interplays, depending on what match ups make optimal.
There has been a tendency, especially on my part, but I also think on Self's part, too, to sit around and wring hands and try to hold on for Embiid and Perry to form a two man offensive tandem of the kind we have seen with Cole and Marcus, Marcus and Kieff, and to lesser extent with TRob and Jeff and Jeff and Kevin. But looking to replicate past patterns, while it can point one to successful formulas, can often blind one to what is currently feasible.
For whatever reason, Perry and Joel are not a good offensive interplay. This is not unusual either with a particularly talented footer. Jabbar often paired best with a 3, or 2, in college. I am recalling Lefty Lynn Shackleford corner long ball game and the marvelous Lucious Allen's ability to do almost anything at the 2. People mistakenly think that Jabbar and Mike Warren were the down the middle strengths of that team. But in fact, the offensive interplay was really about the triangle of Jabbar, Shackleford in the corner and Allen on that same wing, and Warren distributing to that interplay. The 4 on Jabbar's college teams was often not a scorer. He was a garbage man 4 rather like what Marcus Morris played his freshman season for Cole.
Bill Walton had a similar dynamic. It was Silk Wilkes that Bill played off of, not the 4, even though they had some good 4s during Walton's years.
To go back not quite so far, Olajuwan and Clyde Drexler interplayed quite a bit.
This 2 man and 3 man interplay--what slayr rightly calls a dance duet--is at the heart of offensive basketball. It is what drove the old USC coach, Sam something or other, to develop the triple post, and that lead Tex Winter to perfect it and change the name to the triangle. It is at the heart of all offenses, but some offenses can get so focused on ball movement and others on screening that they forget that basketball is really a game of a man with the ball and one or two guys configured one pass away moving to get free for a bucket. It is this way out on the driveway with kids. It is this way on the play ground with pals from your hood vs. guys from other hoods, and it is this way all the way to the NBA Finals.
Two, or 3 offensive players in close proximity create a gravitational force on a court that tips the floor in their direction and forces the entire defense to hedge against it. This invariably stresses a defense, when you put 2, or 3, great players in immediate scoring position. When one of your great players is two passes away, any defense has a chance to react to ball reversal. But putting your biggest threats within one pass spells relentless "DANGER" to a defense. No resting in that part of the court. It is like DEFCON1 at Cheyenne Mountain.
A further benefit of tilting play to your best threats is that it really does open it up for your lesser players that may still be dead eyes from certain spots when open.
KU's 2008 team was actually kind of a freak this way. They really did spread the scoring around. They really were all threats to score and keeping the ball sticking really did bring all five guys into being threats.
But most NCAA champions are not like that 2008 team. Most of them play through 2 or 3 guys most of the time and let the gravitation of doing so open up two others for just occasional daggers.
It is okay if Perry and Joel are not the high steppers.
It is okay if Joel and Wigs start playing some two man sets.
It is better than okay. It is yet another offensive dimension and maybe the best one to add to this team now.
Self is usually ahead of us on these moves, or thinking of about the same thing at the same time.
I think Self got a little too hooked on how much fire power he had and got too focused on keeping the forces all spread out to let the athleticism blossom in the open spaces, seams, or what geometers call the interstices.
Maybe what we need here for a few games is a bit of Bill Walton and Keith Wilkes being moderated by whomever Wooden had at point; i.e., a bit of Joel and Andrew moderated by Tharpe, with Perry and Selden being these two monster talents experiencing the joys of wide open looks.
I like it, slayr. Sign me up.
HELL YES!
@brooksmd Thx. :-)
@VailHawk: I have been traveling for awhile, and was airborne yet again during the KU-UT game due to inexcusably bad scheduling on my part. But I am home again and do not expect to miss any more games this season, god willing.
I watched it afterwards. Quite an incredible performance by everyone. I get on The Designer, but he was guarding well and helping, even he could not get on the glass, or get untracked scoring. The thing is: any game a guy cannot score, or board, due to match ups, all he has to do to REALLY help this team is guard like a demon and help defend more. The amazing thing about this team is that its got so much fire power, and its team defense is kind of loose, that if just one guy forgets looking for touches, or caroms, and just gets in his mans jock and stays their for 40 minutes, the team's team defense lifts nonlinearly. The problem this team has faced much of the year is that too many of the guys have gotten their dobbers down when they could not score, or rebound.
In light of what I have just written, I want to give Andrew Wiggins a big KUDO not for his offensive explosion vs. UT, but for his 6 boards vs. UT, and for his defense, and for his attempts to transform himself into a D1 defender these last several games when he labored through a slump. Wigs is so quiet and internal at times that it goes under the radar, but he has stretched about as much as anyone on the team to get outside of himself and find ways to help the team when he is off. He has been frustrating when he refused to go to iron at times, and has waited for the game to come to him, when it clearly wasn't going to, but the guy has been laboring at learning how to guard and help, when doing so has clearly not been his natural easy going instinct. This says a lot about his potential to become a great player. Yes, he has to work on aggressiveness. He just didn't have a clue about how players have to be willing to take no prisoners in a hostile environment, but he does just keep laboring in the best sense of a Self player. Notice Self does not get down on how hard Wiggins works at getting better. He harps at him about getting after it, about getting into the game, about aggressiveness. And he should. But it seems a reasonable inference that Andrew is grinding it out in practice on the unglamorous things even as he struggles with understanding aggressiveness and how hard you've got to go just to get into the flow of a game. Give me a guy with great talent and a good work ethic, and I know he will eventually get the energy and aggressiveness dialed in correctly. Look at Perry. The guy can hang 32 and he still is struggling with how to dial it in. But they will dial it in. It must be very strange to have so much talent, as Wigs and Perry have, and still be able to play the game even when you cannot get the energy and aggressiveness dialed in. The talent level may actually make it tough to read the dial on those two variables. Guys like Mason have to keep it turned up all the way to the peg to even stay on the floor. No questions for Frank. Just peg it. Wigs and Perry have so much talent that if they peg it, they leave the rest of the team flow behind. And if they dial it in part way, they lag behind it. If team flow were a steady thing, then it would be easy for them to find the right hash mark to set the dial on. But team flow varies from game to game depending on what the opponent can take away, and so it takes a young talented player quite awhile to learn "the range" on the dial that he has to stay within.
Embiid and health. Copy and paste.
Wigs and aggressiveness. Copy and paste.
Mason spectacular. Mason is increasingly one of the most mysterious factors on this team. It is not entirely clear what makes him play well, when he does, and not when not. He seems to be doing many of the same things right and wrong during good games and during bad games. But if Self and Mason can isolate and either mask, or eliminate Mason's problems, KU becomes an overwhelmingly powerful team when Mason is on to come in as an afterburner.
Best, most complete game. Copy and paste.
Great credit to Self. Copy and paste. But I do think Self is very puzzled at the team's defensive performance vs. Texas, and the long term lack of that level of defensive effort. Self appears to hope it is the Embiid Wellness Factor that allows his team defense to come together, but he also seems to be implying, "Yes, but why didn't these guys play hard on defense before this?" Self is wise this way. He is positive about what there is to be positive about without turning a blind eye to the negatives that individual players have the power to control simply through effort. Why haven't these guys played hard on defense most of the season?
Ellis takeaway. Copy and paste.
Tempo was terrific and thanks Tubby. Copy and paste. All teams have a right speed they do the most things well at. It is good to learn to win at off speeds when you have to. But it is also good to learn how to play at your right speed when you can.
Great takes,HEM. Thanks as usual for weighing in.
@VailHawk LOL! I wish I could say I had that kind of influence, for I would just crawl in a hole for the rest of the season, and bet every game on KU winning and making the spread. :-)
Alas, I suspect Joel getting his hops and twinkle toes back has more to do with it!!!!!
You raise a great question about the interplay of individual perimeter defense and team defense including the bigs in the paint. To answer it adequately, I've got to go quite a ways around the barn. So: here goes.
Good team defenses are a combination of good perimeter defenders and good interior defenders. But if you have one or more weak perimeter defenders, about the only way to compensate for them consistently is with a dominant center/rim protector that can also hedge defend; this is why Self works our big guys so hard on hedge defense. If he gets a rim protector that can hedge 15-20 feet out it makes a defense almost guarantied to take an opponents FG% down into the high 30 percentages. Aldrich and Withey could do this. Aldrich was so good at it that he could also rebound double figures, when healthy, but he had a real stud in Marcus Morris to take up the rebounding slack when needed (and Kieff was around too). Withey, who could block and alter even more than Cole, unfortunately, could not muscle the way Cole could, so his rebounding fell off when he tried to hedge and then fall back to rim protect. When Jeff had TRob to rebound, it didn't matter much. When Jeff had Kevin Young to rebound, it was more of an issue, but Kevin was such a disruptive force, even at 180 pounds, Kevin could still usually get 8-10 boards when the chips were down. So Jeff was more or less still covered on the glass by Kevin.
Notice that I have so far not addressed Kieff. The reason is that Kieff was kind of unusual. He was 6-10 in KU inches, and so probably 6-9. He became strong only his last season. He was late blooming. His last season was a nonlinear improvement in all facets of his game. He was a large talent still in crysalis stage his earlier seasons. Kieff's was never a huge shot blocker even his last season. But he turned into an exceptional post defender and a guy that could hedge defense, too. And he had the weight and strength by that last season to punish people that crowded him. In fact, Kieff should be characterized as an alterer. He could hedge, fall back and guard, and muscle people out of their comfort zone on the way to the rim. It made him seen not quite such a dominant defender, but I suspect if one were to go back and grind the stats, Kieff had a very good defensive season that last year. Plus, he had the good fortune, like Cole before him, of playing with one of the best 4s KU has had. Marcus also was not spectacular, but he was sound and able to help Kieff in every way. And if anyone tried to pick on one, the other was sure to go to the wall for the other, as brothers are wont to do. So: I have separated Kieff, who arguably has turned out to be the first or second most talented guy Self has ever had based on what he has done in the NBA, not because he wasn't exceptional, for he was. But because he was a different kind of 5. He was a natural 4 playing the 5 and so he played it a different way.
But back to this year's team, and after that to the issue of perimeter defense that you rightly raised.
The problem this year's KU team faces is that 220 pound Perry cannot get on the glass against guys bigger and stronger than him the way Kevin and TRob ad Marcus did. So: there is a much greater burden on Joel to hedge, then rim protect, AND rebound! Only very exceptional centers can do all three even against the LSAs. Joel is one of those, but only when he is healthy enough to have his hops and quick feet (this would be so with any exceptional center, too). If he has to stay on the floor, and if he loses his foot speed and his hops to injuries, then this exposes two things in this year's team.
First, it exposes Perry's short comings on the glass, if the other team has an LSA 4. The Boolean Programming Logic for Perry is:
LINE 1: If Opponent Has LSA 4, THEN Perry Rebounds = 2 AND GO TO LINE 2, ELSE Perry Rebounds > 8 AND <10 AND GO TO LINE 2.
LINE 2: GO TO LINE 1 :-)
Second, it exposes the gaps in our perimeter defenders.
Before I proceed to analyze our perimeter defenders, understand that I am not knocking them. Every team has gaps somewhere. What makes Self such a great coach is that he finds ways to mask these gaps. I could go back over every Self team and show you where there were gaps big enough to drive a trailer truck through, except that 2008 team. Self's genius is in his ability to string these teams in ways that one, or two, guys' strengths can cover up the weaknesses.
The above being said, the toughest place to mask perimeter defensive gaps IMHO is at point guard. Self has done it twice before Naadir. Sherron was a better defender at PG than Naa appears to be, but Sherron suffered short leg syndrome on his drop step from time to time against top flight guards. Self used Cole and Marcus to cover up this flaw in Sherron's game later. And earlier, Self had defensive help wizards in RR, Chalmers, and Rush, that in some combination of two of those three that could cover Sherron's mistakes outside and Kaun, Darrell, and DBlock could make it quite unpleasant for blow by's inside. But Sherron had on great edge over Naa. Sherron played at a time when you could literally body a point guard all over the floor. And Sherron had the body to body any ordinary point guard, even the long ones, into the cheap seats. Naa does not have the kind of strength to play that way, even if the refs would let him. But if he could body PGs the way Sherron could, he would not look quite so bad as he does, when Joel is not there to back him up, and when Perry is disappearing due to an LSA.
The other time Self has had to mask a deficient PG on defense is last season. EJ of the knee quilts could barely slide for parts of the season. At times he looked like a pirate with a peg leg. But EJ was a naturally great defender. Super anticipation. And a defensive players mentality. He was in short the kind of guy that could stiff screen a behemoth like McGary, if he thought that was what it took to screw with an opposing team's head. Naa does not appear to have that mentality, at least not yet. Anyway, Self just told EJ to forget about conventional guarding for about two months and just said over play the guy and turn him into the paint. Shove him if you have to, but don't worry about blow bys. Step in front of him as best you can, but get him to Withey. Hell, at times EJ actually seemed to use his hands to guide blow bys to Jeff. :-)
The key here of course is that Jeff was ALWAYS back there all season. It was one of the counter intuitive miracles of basketball history that sinewy tough Jeff Withey never got injured, once he quit trying to carry extra weight. But he didn't. So: while we had to watch the ugly blow bys past EJ last season for a couple months, Withey was always there to block and alter, and the whirling dervish that Kevin was, was always ready to explode out of nowhere and strip, or block a blow by. And it also didn't hurt that 23 year old Travis, one of god's great gifts to old man's defense, was always there shadowing and helping. And lastly, Ben was an L&A you always had to look out for coming out of no where too, just because Ben liked to do outrageously unexpected things by temperament.
On this year's team, Naa is being masked with Joel, who has been at half speed, or off the floor, for what seems a month and a half or so. And Perry watches his back unpredictably. When Perry has a slow wide body, or a skinny ninny his height, then he often can step in and catch the blow bys. But as the season goes on, and the competition gets better, more and more Naa cannot rely on Perry for masking tape. More and more he has had to rely on two freshman phenoms that have never really had to play much defense, and certainly never have had to help defend another position 25-28 feet out. Wiggins and Selden have gradually improved at helping, but gradually is the operant word. And, well, Wigs turned out not to be particularly comfortable as the 3 that had to body the other teams LSA perimeter player; that job seems to have fallen increasingly to Selden. But the point is: though perhaps even more physically gifted than Travis Releford, neither Wiggins, nor Selden, seems to have found the key to the difficult juggling act of locking down their own man, while also helping on the point guard. Thus, Naa has found his weakness more often unmasked than masked this season. And it is quite fair to say that he has found his weakness more unmasked than Sherron, or EJ, ever did. And when Naa has somewhat more deficiency to mask, it makes him appear an even worse defender than he really is. Naa just has the misfortune of playing the point on a team that is, unless Joel is feeling fresh as a daisy, that is ill-equipped to give him the masking he needs.
Self undoubtedly recognized this from the beginning and so has put the spurs to Naa from the beginning. Self knew he wasn't going to be able to mask him at times as well as he needed and so Self has pretty much constantly kept a fire lit under him about his defense.
For Naa's part, I think he has done perhaps as good of a job as he is capable. He has gotten a little better all the time on defense, despite having to constantly face new defenses thrown at him that he has to recognize and respond to, also.
Naa has the toughest assignment of any one on this team.
He is the one guy that has to play at the edge of his envelope most of the time to make the team work. His only totally comprehensive coverage insurance is Joel. And Joel has been a damaged aircraft carrier steaming at about half to 2/3s speed the last month even when on the floor.
Naa has to be very happy to have Joel back.
And Naa's play is apt to improve considerably on both ends of the floor so long as he is back.
Insurance is a good thing, when you can afford it.
Naa is in good hands with Joel "All State" Embiid.
Rock Chalk!
Forgot to mention: KU FT DEFENSE ABOUT AS GOOD AS ITS BEEN ALL SEASON!!
Marvelously sweet beat down and payback.
KU punked Butcher's Boyz without decent trey shooting. Inference for horn fans for B12 tourney? Wait till we bring our A game, you petro-cretins!
Joel finally got his blocks/game stat back up. Maybe the knee rehab is finally for real.
Every silver lining has a dark cloud: Ellis disappeared on glass for second straight game. 2 Reebs.
Embiid quotes suggests Self was big time angered at what Barnes had his team dish out to KU in Austin.
Self quotes missing usual kindness for opponents caught on a bad day.
Barnes quotes missing usual praise for Self and KU, just a terse acknowledgement that KU really good.
The apparent recent love affair between Bill and Butcher seems officially over.
KU looked like they were trying not just for a W, but to give UT's new AD an excuse to hire one of Self's many disciples.
The troubling take away for Self: now he knows for certain his team has been dogging it on him all season on defense. They have been able to play great D all along and just didn't want to. Hence, Bill's reservations about this only being one game.
JNew predicted this beat down by close to the right margin. Kudos to him.
Slayr had the right Rx for this team's blues: quicken tempo.
Closer: this is Embiid's team now and apparently has been all along. It goes as far as he can protect the rim. With him at 5 blocks, not fouled up, and agile, the team's gaps in perimeter D don't matter. With the team also trying hard on defense, the team becomes tough too beat even without good trey shooting. But if Embiid re-injures, or gets fouled up, then KU is very beatable, even with Black rounding into being a very good big man. It was no coincidence that Tharpe appeared to play great defense once Embiid finally had his hops back. Embiid with hops and 5 blocks is like Wilt in this regard. Joel could make 4 cheerleaders playing perimeter defense look good. And even take away Wigs' flashy 12 point run and it's still a blow out. Bottom line: with Joel healthy, this is Self Ball with defense generating offense. Without Joel blocking and altering, it's AAU Ball. Keep getting those treatments, Joel!!! Rock Chalk!
Next.
Joe Dooo has not gotten any upsets of D1 bigs this season, but he is off to a solid first season and he ain't shoveling any snow either. 😄
Go, Joe, go!!!!!
"If Shoeless Joe Jackson were alive today, he would have a shoe contract."
--Don Mattingly, NY Yankees
This is a test post to see if JayhawkFanToo will back fill. 😃
PHOF
Tempo and it's effect on total number of trips appears to be altered on offense and defense. Defense that makes an opponent take longer to shoot slows tempo decreases Total number of trips.
For example, using a back-pedaling 2-2-1 zone press starting 3/4 court tends to make it take longer for an opponent to get the ball up the court, so this has the accordion effect of making it take longer to start offense and so force the opponent's possession deeper into the shot clock, which makes for a longer possession, which makes for slower tempo, and fewer possessions.
Alternatively, you can play a trapping press of many kinds that enables/forces passes down floor that speeds a slowdown opponent up.
Defense in half court can also be varied to speed up or slow down the time it takes an opponent to shoot.
Late in games, a team may foul ASAP to shorten an opponent's possession time, thus sharply increasing tempo by stopping the clock entirely during an opponent's possession; this greatly increases the number of trips in time remaining.
At the XTReme, teams have even tried guarding lay ups and not guarding jump shot (and vice versa) to get opponents to shoot faster, and so increase tempo and total trips.
Super analysis of pace. I want to lay out some old conventional wisdom on this subject and let you use your greater experience and first hand knowledge of the game at higher levels to explain why it would be good for Tharpe to control pace and quicken it. I suspect you are right, but I am frankly not knowledgeable enough lay out why.
Conventional wisdom from a long time ago: I learned in high school ball that there were two ways to deal with slow down: your way--speed it up, and Self's occasional way--get in the molasses with them.
Your way increases the number of trips, and, hence, increases the number of chances for our superior offense to out score them. I was taught your way works best, if you have a better defense than the opponent, but not when not. For example, John Wooden always preferred lots of trips, because he relied on superbly conditioned defenses to get more stops and superbly conditioned offenses get more open looks as the game entered the stretch.
Self's occasional way--slowing down along with them--reduces the number of trips and so retains our offensive advantage per possession, yet also reduces the number of times our poor defense has to guard.
This old conventional wisdom suggests Self will opt to slow it down, until Joel becomes the dominant rim protector that he was pre-injury, if he ever does.
Put another way, if our PG were skillful and talented enough to push the pace without rising TOs and our defense were sound, we would see the pace stepped up dramatically.
As is, Self will probably play slowdown anytime they want to, so as to minimize the times this team has to guard.
Faster pace can be used intermittently to keep the opponent from getting comfortable.
Faster pace can also be seen as offensive disruption, when one cannot disrupt on defense.
Again, great take on pace that has got me thinking, even if I am outlining the logic of why Self may not go along.
Now the table is set. I am eager to learn here. Thx in advance.
@ralster: agreed Self gets the big pic file re: state revenues. That is exactly why I wrote what I did. Housing is crucial. And it could be easily solved many different ways. And it must be or he will probably leave.
@DinarHawk: yours is a thoughtful and thought provoking post.
Inconsistency happens. 😃
Consider Texas and ISU's play this conference season.
But your insightful question is: does it happen to Self's teams more?
I used to think it did, because of a self-fulfilling prophecy in Self's philosophy that players play 1/3 good games, 1/3 average games and 1/3 bad games.
I still think it does and that it is a core driver why Self's teams show more inconsistency than another exceptional coach like John Wooden's teams did.
But I think something not unexpected has occurred.
Self's phenomenal success the last ten years has lead many if not most coaches in the Big 12 to adopt this part of his philosophy and, as a result, we may be witnessing a normalizing of Selfian inconsistency. I suspect we are seeing more teams manifest this inconsistency.
Understand this inconsistency appears to have two probable drivers though.
First, there is the self fulfilling prophecy of assuming the 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 distribution of good, average and bad games.
Second, there is his apparent assumption that teams cannot be geeked up for two games in 3, or 4 days. Self appears to "geek" his teams up for the tougher opponent in a two game set and to send his teams out flat for the weaker one. This leads to more "planned" and more "extreme" inconsistency.
Self is in effect trying to bias his good performances higher and trying to bias those good performances to come against the better opponents, while biasing his worst performances to come against lesser opponents.
This squeezes more Ws out of a given amount of talent, when other teams are coached to be consistent every game.
It remains to be seen how Self will do, as others copy his approach.
Will he evolve a counter measure to his own approach?
Looking at the line scores, either 3 of 5 starters did not play their hearts out, or those three starters were less talented than the guys they were matched up with.
Well there are two other possibilities: "playing through" injuries and "personal stuff." But since Self reputedly never plays anyone with a serious injury, we know this time of year all on both teams are "nicked up" and so that's a wash that cannot explain the poor line scores of the three players. And similarly everyone is going through personal stuff on both teams, so that too is a wash and probably does not explain the poor line scores.
So one is left with either:
a.) failure to play heart out; or
b.) less talent than opponent.
Regarding talent, Selden and Ellis were 5-star recruits and Selden is considered a possible OAD. I don't recall either player's match-up on TTECH having been a 5-star recruit, or possible OAD, so that suggests LESSER talent was PROBABLY not the trigger in Ellis' and Selden's cases.
In Tharpe's case, he was a 3-star recruit and a bit shorter than his match up, so maybe Naa was helplessly determined by insufficient talent alone to make 2 assists and 4 TOs, but were TTECH's guards really that much more talented than Naa that they locked him down, while he played his heart out?
So: hearts being played out seems an unpersuasive argument, unless these three players labor with acutely undersized hearts and I just don't find any empirical evidence for that.
No, it appears 3 of 5 starters did not bring their A games to Lubbock, or their B games.
But to be a mensch I will agree "dis-honor roll" is inaccurate.
"Didn't Play Their Hearts Out Roll" seems more accurate.
But they got the W and that was what they went to Lubbock for.
So may be all is well and it can be chalked up to coincidence of three of five guys having off nights the same night.
I don't think Self is a lock to stay at KU unless the new housing for KU basketball players is a done deal and dirt is broken this off season.
Self has turned this basketball program into the most monster money maker imaginable. He has won 84% of his games. He has won a ring. He has brought in monster recruiting classes. And the state won't even fund housing for his players. It is disgraceful.
Self could rent a U-Haul and be down in Stillwater a week after the season, if Pickens offers him more salary than Calipari, and a ground breaking on new housing. Tyler can be a walk on at OSU as easily as at KU. Self's whole staff would move with him in a second, because he would be able to double their salaries.
Nike would back him in Stillwater just to put a thumb in adidas eye and so adidas would back Self in Stillwater just to keep from getting a thumb in the eye from Nike.
Remember, Self has turned his back on the "continuity program" of 3-4 year players; this is the new OAD era. Self could take Oubre and the big guy from Chicago with him to Stillwater. Wiggins and Embiid could go pro. And Self could hang onto a couple of Ford's players and probably beat KU next season.
Bill Self is going to get his just rewards for the job he has done one way or another. And he's 50 years old. If Pickens offered him as much money as he would make coaching in the L, and Self only had to coach 40 games instead of 100 games, he would be crazy not to cash out of KU now and take the OSU job.
Cal proved that in the OAD era, you can switch schools and not miss a beat and Cal isn't half the coach Self is.
Self could coach his last ten years with his folks in his backyard so much money he could turn Stillwater into a solid winner. Eddie already proved it could be done.
I am not saying Self wants to leave KU.
I am saying he will leave KU, if that housing isn't built.
Self has gotten a taste this season of just how tenuous his coaching excellence really is.
He is 20-6 this season with great talent.
20-6 with great talent, tough opposition or not, is not a sparkling W&L statement. It can happen to anyone.
If Self has a couple more 20-6 stretches the next few years, his hyper marketable days will be over.
If Self wants to cash out, he probably has to do it very soon.
CBernie and Sheahon and the alumni are going to have fork up the money for the housing and they are going to have sweeten his salary, or they are going to lose him as surely as Hemenway lost Roy.
Self isn't really asking for all that much for himself.
He is asking for as good of housing for his players as lots of other programs have.
He deserves it.
And if he doesn't get it, he will go somewhere where he can get it.
And he should.
There was a reason Self brought Embiid back against Texas Tech. It wasn't to use Texas Tech as a warm up game for Texas, as I at first thought. As JNew pointed out on the blog, Tech was ranked 69th by KENPOM. To put that in perspective, Colorado is ranked 60th. No, Self brought Embiid back, because he realized this KU team had zip chance of beating TTech without the Mighty Joel.
And don't let Wiggins getting the last bucket fool you. Andrew had to have Joel to win the game. Joel was 6-7 FG and 6-8 FT and had 8 reebs. Compare that with Wigs' 5-10 FG and 6-8 FT 6 reebs.
The other three starters were pitiful. Just awful. They were worse than awful. They were tediously bad.
Dishonor roll:
Tharpe--1-7FG, 1-5 3pt, 2Asst, 4 TOs,
Selden--2-8FG, 2-4 3pt, 1 asst, 0 steals.
Ellis--0-3 FG, 1 Reeb, 1 asst, 1 TO.
When these three came off the floor they were taken straight to a de-lousing station.
KU shot 28.6% from trey.
KU was +3 on TOs.
Did I say KU sucked?
Self did not just send the team out flat.
He sent the team out concave.
Wiggins, who won the game down the stretch for KU, was nothing short of de-phenomenal until the last three minutes.
For long stretches of the game it was like the 4 starters and the bench were in effect saying, "Thank god Joel is back, we were getting tired of having to play hard to win games. Let's just stand around and let him do it tonight."
Even after one gives credit to TTech for playing a sound basketball game with a solid starting five, 3/5s of KU sucked the entire game, and 4/5s sucked for 37 minutes of it.
KU's bench did not suck. It was merely uninspired.
How a team wins a game with 6 assists is beyond me, but how a team wins a game with 3/5ths of the team seeming to play on a ventilator, doubly unfathomable.
This team has taken winning to a new low.
But if a team were to be judged by finding a way to win a game it did not deserve to win, well, this would have to be judged the best team in KU history.
Next.
@drgnslayr : stellar post.
Chalmers eligibility for having his jersey hung under current rules was met, but I do not understand the rules to say KU HAD to hang his jersey. I believe the discretion remained with those at KU making such decisions.
Dunk contests are insipid. Period.
They are like judging gymnastics, or ice-skating, or snowboarding routines without any rational technical and aesthetic criteria at all.
Dunk festivals would be more appropriate.
Everyone gets together and shows their best dunk.
People eat and drink. The players celebrate one of the great joys of the game. Fini.
If they insist on having a dunk contest, then continually raise the basket until only one person left can dunk.
The rest of it is all BS and everyone knows it.
Next.
Rules are never changed for one person. They are changed for all persons. To talk about changing the rules for one person (Rush in this instance) is a common misdirection play used by lazy thinkers, or agenda grinders, to avoid the thinking required to change a problematic rule into an effective one. Rush is just one person among many to come in the future that would be saved from the undesirable and unintended outcome of the current rules. It is always appropriate to change rules that produce unintended and undesirable consequences. Just ask any African American person about the virtues of changing the undesirable rules about chattel slavery, or the Great Compromise, or Jim Crow. Rules that produce unintended and/or undesirable consequences need to be changed. There is really not much to discuss. Rush was a greater player than Simien, because he was the hub player of a national champion. And because of his heroic come back from injury to lead the team to a national championship. Simien's jersey is hanging in the Fieldhouse. Rush's is not. Therefore, the rules need to be changed. And they need to be changed regardless of how my spellchecker spells Wayne Simien's last name. And they need to be changed regardless, if there were tension between Bill Self and Brandon Rush, or not. KU should not be held hostage to the opinions of sportswriters about which KU players' jersies should be retired. It is an honor that should be won on the court first and foremost. And it should be decided by KU people and not by persons unaffiliated with KU. Next.
:-)
Rules are written to yield desirable and intended outcomes. Rules are amended when desirable and intended outcomes are excluded. The rules have been amended in the past, as they should've been. If the rules permit Wayne Simeon and exclude Brandon Rush, then the rules need to be amended for they are producing unintended and undesirable outcomes. Rules are like generals, coaches and players: if they cannot produce desirable and intended outcomes, then they need to be changed. Any rule that keeps the best player on an NCAA championship team from having his jersey hung needs to be changed.
@icthawkfan316 A nit worth picking. I was trying to suggest that Self is a bit conflicted in Brandon's case; that he is human and not immune to making cracks due to perceived ingratitude. But it came out inadequately specified, poorly expressed and so a nit to pick.
Big games against weak opponents are fool's gold, at worst, and therapeutic confidence builders enabled by coaches at best.
Andrew Wiggins hung 29 on a nobody. It was therapy. And it didn't help. It gave him false confidence. The only big game Wiggins has had that mattered was against Duke, and that was early when opponents don't know what they are doing.
Perry for 32 on 13-15 FGs?
It's great! It's wonderful. It's delightful.
But it doesn't mean squat.
We already knew he could go off on chumps; that was never the issue.
What he did against KSU, was way more important as a gauge of his trend line.
What Perry needs are two straight 15/10 nights against ranked teams with 4s that are taller and stronger.
That will confirm he has arrived.
Brandon Rush came home yesterday and his jersey is still not hanging in the field house. Rush and Self had not seen each other in two years and his jersey is still not hanging in the field house. Bill Self says Brandon Rush is the greatest defensive player he ever coached and his jersey is still not hanging in the field house. IMHO, Brandon Rush is still the best freshman basketball player Bill Self has ever coached at KU and his jersey is still not hanging in the field house.
Why?
There has seemed a tension between coach and player, since the end of Brandon's last season; that was the season Brandon was was not coming back for until a severe knee injury sent him under the knife, into rehab and then to the most heroic, spectacular and downright melodramatic recovery and ring-winning senior season in KU Basketball history.
Brandon seemed to leave for the pros and never look back. From a fans distant view, it appeared as if he felt what he had given KU Basketball had never been adequately recognized or appreciated. It appeared that Brandon wanted some recognition, or appreciation from Self that Self was unwilling to give.
Looking back we can only imagine how tough Self must have been on Brandon, who was going straight to the pros until the OAD rule kicked in and he at the last minute chose Self and KU.
Self was then trying to craft his first KU team full of his own recruits. Self had inherited a running team from Roy Williams that many thought could win a ring, but that Self turned into half court grind it out club. It's style of play never seemed fully suited to its personnel. Injuries undermined it. It got stopped at the Elite Eight--a great accomplishment few appreciated because of stratospheric, long-deferred hopes for a ring under Roy.
That now often forgotten early team of Self's also had a superb player on it. His name was Wayne Simien. And though fans did not quite realize it then, the massively muscular, yet still stunningly athletic Simien was (and remains) the quintessential Self Baller, even after all the greats that would follow. He carried a team on his back offensively in a way no KU player has had to do since. He earned Self's highest offensive praise he has ever given. Self said repeatedly after Wayne finished playing: he was money on the blocks. If you could get him the ball on the low block, Wayne scored...on anyone...period.
Self comes from the Larry Brown/Bob Knight/Eddie Sutton school of honesty about players. This school believes that truth in assessment and comparison of what was done, no matter how harsh, or how praiseworthy, cannot be violated, no matter who's feelings get hurt. These coaches can go on and on about potential and ceiling and phenomenal kinds of skills, but on the subject of what has a player actually done? That has to be truth. Why? Because performance is finally the benchmark in any survey of the legacy of the game. Without that benchmark, no one can get better because with out the benchmark of truth, no one can know what the best was before hand and so no one can tell if someone else has raised the bar. Excellence in basketball is not a relative term within given eras of the game.
Wayne was the best on the offensive end, even though Brandon carried the team offensively all four seasons and lead them to a ring; that had to stick in Brandon's craw.
And Brandon came along when Self was probably at his most maniacally driven point of his career. Self wanted his first ring bad. He had the choker label. He hadn't won a ring and 9 titles then. He hadn't cut Boot Camp in half yet. He hadn't been given along term security yet. He still believed everything was necessary to obsess on, not just some things.
And he hadn't asked Brandon to muscle up and become a defensive Magister Ludi at the 3 in Self's glass bead game of team defense-first ball to win a ring.
But he had asked Brandon to sacrifice for the team and play out of position at the 3 for all of four seasons, instead of his money position--the 2. What everyone overlooks about the great Rush is that he was going to straight to the L, as the perfect NBA 2. All he needed was work on his off hand at dribbling, otherwise he had the hall of fame package. Unlike Andrew Wiggins, he could shoot 43% from trey in his sleep and guard at D1 speeds from the start.
Harsh Truth Time: to this point, Brandon Rush was better as a Freshman than Andrew Wiggins. Self started out trying to put the team on Andrew's back and he couldn't carry it. Instead he had to shift it to Joel Embiid's back. In contrast, Self didn't put it on Rush's back to begin with and then had to. And Rush carried that team his freshman season, at both ends.
And this talk of Rush not knowing how to spell defense in the beginning is a lot of hogwash. Rush's freshman defense would have made him the defensive lock down star of this year's team.
But in the end, Rush never seemed to feel adequately appreciated by Self and Self never seemed to feel adequately appreciated by Rush.
And then Rush's injury plagued pro career was over shadowed by Mario Chalmers' XTRemely fortunate 2 ring so far pro career and Chalmers got his jersey hung.
Chalmers was a great KU player. He made The Shot. BUT CHALMERS WAS NEVER THE BEST PLAYER ON THAT TEAM. EVER. RUSH WAS. PERIOD.
Chalmers' jersey was hung first, because it was good PR for recruiting in an Age of HyperHype. Hanging the jersey of a KU star on Lebron's NBA Champion gets national media hype. It is called striking while Mario's iron is hot; that was good for Self and KU but a slap in the face to Rush.
So now, after the sting has worn off some, Rush comes home a few years later at NBA all star break not an all star, and humbled, and Self finally admits Rush was the best defensive player he ever had.
On one level Self is withholding, not giving the player he road to his only ring the unconditional approval that little brothers seek before they finally grow fully up. Self is saying Wayne was better on offense.
On another level Self is being gracious and giving his somewhat estranged player the greatest honor short of the best overall label that exists in Self Ball: best defensive player.
It is an indirect admission that Rush was better than Chalmers, who's jersey hangs in the field house for reasons other than who was best on the sacred wood.
It means Rush's old coach is waiting to hang Rush's jersey until the Little Brother in Rush is finally extinguished and Rush can quit mourning and self pitying about how things might have gone and start being glad and grateful for how they did go. About how much money he does make and about how much his old coach does esteem him, whether or not their personalities ever did mesh as well as they should have. In the end they both did something great and lasting at KU that overrides all the rest of the might have beens.
They should both as soon as possible be standing at center court celebrating the hanging of Brandon's jersey and thinking the words of the immortal Lou Gehrig.
I feel like the luckiest man on the face of the earth.
Time waits for no one.
Tragedy can strike at any moment.
And then it would be too late to savor the moment together.
Don't let it happen, Coach.
Don't let it happen, Brandon.
Rock Chalk.
@ralster: you get my jokes. Thank heavens. And I am LOL at Ratso loosening his tie!
Here is where board rats post who voted against the basketball housing and why. Time to understand the politics of basketball housing.
RE: Hedge apple wood.
Great news learning it is good smoking wood. I spent a lot of years in childhood clearing pastures overrun with the thorny stuff and we never thought to smoke with it and so sick homo sapiens on it as an economic predator. Mostly all we did was curse at it for being so hard to kill. I still remember springs after spring chain sawing, drilling the stumps, and painting the stump with poison. And by summer the stuff was so robust about a third of them would be sprouting up again!
Here follows my mind dump on hedge apple wood, as supplemented with wiki stuff.
"Maclura pomifera, commonly called Osage orange, hedge apple,[3] horse apple, monkey ball,[4] bois d'arc, bodark, or bodock[5] is a small deciduous tree or large shrub, typically growing to 8–15 metres (26–49 ft) tall. It is dioecious, with male and female flowers on different plants. The fruit from a multiple fruit family, is roughly spherical, but bumpy, and 7.6–15.2 centimetres (3–6 in) in diameter. It is filled with a sticky white latex. In fall, its color turns a bright yellow-green. It is not closely related to the orange: Maclura belongs to the mulberry family, Moraceae, while oranges belong to the family Rutaceae.[6][7]"--wiki page
It grew native in the Red River Drainage basin in Texas and a bit of Oklahoma. Osage and Commanche tribes made bows and clubs out of the wood. It is still prized for bows by some today. The tribes of the old times prized wood. They would travel hundreds of miles with the buffalo herds to get to where the Osage Orange grew wild and then cut and make bows and clubs of it.
Early explorers identified it and brought samples back to the east coast. Though some early attempts at spreading it out of its natural habitat range failed, other attempts succeeded and it quickly spread and was prized for its rapid growth rate, and robustness in most climates.
American colonists, descended from continental Europeans (recall the French hedgerows of Normandy) used to planting and growing other species of trees close together in long rows as fencing for livestock, and for use of annual trimmings for heating fuel, recognized the potential use of the hedge tree quickly. That it had thorns added to its appeal for keeping livestock in and thieve's out. The green hedge apples produced prolifically by the trees were also fed to live stock and could in a pinch be eaten by humans with careful preparation to rid the apples of their otherwise horrid taste.
The hedge row fences worked great for small farmers. If they were regularly pruned, their trunks and bush grew dense rapidly and created a largely impenetrable barrier. And to reiterate the trimmings were collected for renewable fuel source. Hedge row fences when properly cared for were supposedly kept only a little above head height to make trimming easy. This also reduced the prolific production of hedge apples.
But hedge row fences were a lot of work and when barb wire and prefab fence posts and reliable sources of petroleum based and electric heating became affordable, farmers quickly abandoned the time consuming tending of the hedge row fences. The hedge row fences quickly grew to their natural heights of 25-50 feet and took on the appearance that most have today. And they were tremendously difficult to kill. Saw them off at the ground level and they grow back to head height bushes in a few years. Bulldoze them and burn them and even then many trees come back from small remaining roots.
What makes the above problematic is that untended hedgerow fences produce massive quantities of hedge apples and cattle and birds and squirrels eat the hedge apples and then spread the seeds around the pasture. Within 5-10 years a beautiful pasture of blue stem, or buffalo grass, or planted feskew (?) will be covered with head high bushes and in time the spread of the hedge is so complete that the pasture grass can become largely choked off under a kind of hedge grove.
After falling into wild untended rows for several decades, hedge apple trees aka Osage Orange got a second wind during the great depression, when the Roosevelt Administration's farm assistance programs assisted farmers in planting the hedge rows out on the prairies and wheat farms of the great plains as wind breaks during the Dust Bowl Era. Once the Great Depression and Dust Bowl Era passed these hedge rows the began to spread the hedge apple tree in to ever more regions of the USA as the livestock, rodents, and birds ate the apples, and pooped them all over pastures everywhere.
So: here is the deal, slayr. My father, up in heaven, who fought a 30 year battle with wild hedge he grew to hate, is sitting up clapping and cheering at the news that hedge makes good smoking wood. And he is hoping for absolute certain that you can make hedge smoked meat and barbecue such a popular food item, that the relentless harvest of hedge turns it once and for all into an endangered species. :-)
Rock Chalk!
Slayr and ict, PHOF xchange.
Self is moving where we are all thinking he should already, but he is moving a few pieces at a time, chess style. It is taking him a few games to move the pieces, and injuries are getting in the way, but he has the depth to keep moving.
Start with my post about more pressure defense with two-man rebounding and disruption. (Note: Wigs and Selden are being asked to guard hard now and it is taxing their energy budgets and killing their shooting percentages, BUT they will play into better shape soon. Wigs has been moved to more 2 position to wean the team off his rebounding to get him positioned for more transition shortly. Perry's boards went sharply up vs KSU. But Embiid's and Black's injuries crimped two man rebounding. Lastly, Greene is being inserted now for his disruption, rather than his trey.)
Add more Wig and Selden in transition. (Note: this was supposed to happen vs. KSU, but Embiid's and Black's injuries and Traylor's suspension and Selden's down game killed the two-man rebounding scheme and so Wigs had to play more 3, look to glass vac more, and release less.)
Add more secondary break. (Note Tarick's and Perry's two secondary break baskets vs KSU.)
Add more treys from Tharpe. (Note: Tharpe has been triggering more and Frankamp suddenly sees more PG backup PT for still more trey shooting from PG.)
The trick of course is doing all of the above chess moves, while holding down the TO's.
Basketball, unlike war, is always a cyclic oscillation between defense and offense, i.e., the rules don't permit staying on offense even if you can. In basketball, all offensive action necessarily starts with defense. You can choose to play good or bad defense, but you must be on defense.
Self, like Iba with team defense, then Allen and Harp with Pressure defense, then Wooden with 3/4 court pressure defense, says play great defense to get lower opponent FG% and steal more scoring opportunities.
Once you do that hurry up the floor and score the quickest, highest percentage shot possible, so that you can get back on defense and steal another possession; this is the Phog Allen, Dean Smith, Larry Brown, Roy Williams part of the game.
Put these two parts of the game together and add play it any way and any tempo you want and you have Haskins, Knight, Sutton, Hartman, Coach K, and Self.
Self is trying to fit the pieces together with sapling Freshman and green sophomores.
It is taking time.
But the tumblers unlocking a teamare apt to click in 2-3 weeks, when the NCAA TOURNEY ARRIVES!
Remember all analysis has two steps. First, you break things down to see which parts of the car needs repair and/or tuning up to make it fast. This part we did in the above exchanges. But the second step is just as vital. Reassemble ALL the pieces.
Rock Chalk!
Transition offense requires each of the following as predicates:
1) defending well enough to force bad shots and misses;
2) pressuring enough to get steals;
3) rebounding with at most two players, releasing the rest and quick release passes.
Mastering the obvious, these things cannot happen until our players learn to play pressure, team defense, jump in passing lanes, and rebound.
I suspect our perimeter defenders cannot play pressure defense at the level of Self Defenses of the past, because they have not had to practice against guys that knew how to play pressure, team defense. They do not yet understand yet that pressure, team defense is the only way for them to keep from being punching bags. When you are in another man's jock strap from the beginning of the possession to the end, an offender is worrying to much about how to move the ball to start cheap shotting you every ten seconds. And when you are in an offenders jock strap from the beginning to the end of the possession, you can, at any moment, dish out punishment that is very, very hard for a referee to see, when your man is between you and the referee. The stiff screen as slayr and ralster like to call it, are best delivered when you are up close and personal with the offender.
Our young players have plenty of ability to play pressure, team defense, but they have not yet connected the punkings they are taking with their lack of playing such aggressive defense.
If any of them and their joints survive long enough to make this mental connection between pressure, team defense and ceasing to be punching bags, they will embrace it fully and swiftly and with a vengeance. But so far, their young brains do not seem to get it.
@JayhawkRock78 : agreed. He had everything but a good arm. Great strength and toughness. Handsome, laconic and charismatic. Great speed. Great agility. Great anticipation. He could play almost any position on the field. He could deliver a blow on any size player. And he was fearless. But he and matured physically quite a bit while at KU. He benefited greatly from some time to develop, even though like Andrew Wiggins he was very good from the beginning.
The problem with sending 18-year-old basketball players to the NBA is that even though their length and athleticism and skills permit them to play, unless they have incredible strength and weight, as does LeBron, they just get kicked around for a couple years. It is great to make big money being kicked around, but you are still being kicked around. And the closer to the basket that you play, the more dangerous the transition to the NBA appears physically. Andrew Wiggins can go to the NBA next year and play the two guard and not have to worry very much about being savaged at the rim. Experienced professionals will be sent to the iron. Andrew will make space and shoot jump shots. His problem appears to be that he seems not to be nearly as good of a jump shooter as Xavier Henry. But He has enough potential that they will let him develop a Kobe style game, as slayer has pointed out. He will get punked some, but probably not badly hurt. His dad has apparently taught him well about how to avoid injury in the college game. He apparently just works on developing skills and apparently does not play at the edge of his envelope; this appeared to be the same strategy that Xavier Henry appeared to follow. It apparently gets an OAD to draft day uninjured, but then that player has to learn how to play hard in the NBA, and anecdotal cases like Rose and Henry suggest the learning curve for intense play is so steep that injuries result pretty soon in the NBA.
Big men playing without physical maturity has always appeared to me to be a much greater risk than perimeter players doing so, on either the college, or the pro, levels. Increasingly, the Bigs play a kind of sumo wrestling game on a 90 foot mat made of hard wood. It is a bad place to try to play without sufficient strength.
@Crimsonorblue22: The short answer is I don't remember. I suspect Joel is a bit heavier than Wilt that freshman season. Joel is said to weigh 250. I don't recall, but I would be surprised if Wilt weighed more than 230. Wilt was extremely thin his freshman season, but he got that year to mature. He was still thin when he played varsity, but Wilt was characterized from the beginning as being extremely strong. He seemed more powerfully muscled than Joel. And remember that during the years Joel was playing volley ball and soccer, Wilt was playing basketball and track. And in track and field he was a serious quarter miler, high jumper, and triple jumper. And by the time he got to the KU varsity, he had competed not only a year of freshman basketball, but also a season of freshman track in which he trained in all the events I mentioned, plus frequently trained in the discus, the shot put, and hurdles, because at that time his dream was to enter the decathlon and try to win an Olympic gold. He backed away from his dreams in the decathlon to keep focused on basketball, but he was a stellar high jumper on KU's varsity track team eventually.
What I'm trying to say is that Wilt and Joel had different kind of muscling and strength, plus Wilt was a monster track man. And track and field, competed in at the college level, is a tremendous stimulus to physical development.
@Crimsonorblue22 : I was being tongue in cheek. I totally agree with what you have written.
@drgnslayr: I guess it makes us old curmudgeons, but I totally agree with the old days of a year's adjustment on a JV team. This is just getting too brutal to watch. Sending these beautiful young athletes up against these older players is excruciating to watch. And it is just plain WRONG!
I do not think I will forget the KU-SDSU game this year as long as I live. It was like sending a bunch of year old thoroughbreds out with three year olds. Talent has to have a chance to mature.