🏀 KuBuckets Archive

Every year there's been hope with Self and the Jayhawks. After losses like these, I'm always looking forward to the next year, recruiting classes, imagining the starting lineups and how they might be better that the current year's.

But this year, I'm out of hope.

I know, I'm spoiled. We were in the Final Four five years ago. Oregon hasn't been since dinosaurs roamed the earth. Good for them.

But bad for us. Again.

No shame in losing to Kentucky in '12. But yeah, I think KU has gone from being mildly disappointing in the tournament to flat out disappointing. Maybe we're over-seeded? I'm starting to think we often are. The Big XII is obviously weak year after year come tourney time, so there's that. Not sure why they do so well before conference play starts.

Anyway, why should I think next year will be any different? Is this just who we are, the low end of the blue bloods?

Throw away the streaks. I want national titles. And I'm not confident that we'll get close any time soon. At least to the standard that I think a program like Kansas should be held to.

Maybe I should manage my expectations?

@chriz you could switch teams.

@chriz yes you should. We made the elite 8 with 7 rotation players and our single rim protector hurt. We made the elite 8 with guys like Frank, DG and LL starting. Guys nobody could have imagined the type of careers they ended up having.

Take as much time to grieve as you need. We all hate this. It always stings and we want to point fingers. But to win 6 straight games with a short bench against good opponents is hard to do.

Finally, next years team will be every bit as good as this team. There will be a lot of new faces, but there is a potential for next seasons team to have 6 draft picks. 6. That is some serious talent. And that is something to be excited about!

Hold your head high. We support a rock solid program and something that we should be proud of. We are the gold standard year in and year out.

@chriz did you hear the announcer say when the last time Oregon made a final four? Like 70 years ago. It could be much much worse. The sky isn't falling. The program is going to continue all of its streaks. And yea a championship would be nice.
But if that's all you watch basketball for and the only thing you consider to be greatness then why do we even play the games? I think you're missing out on the fun part of college sports. The rivalries, tradition and love for our players and school. Just because 3 or 4 other schools can make fun of us for not winning as many championships doesn't mean 150 other schools aren't envious of us.

Sorry to say so much. I just hate when our fans don't appreciate what we have accomplished. We can sometimes act like spoiled little kids and need to learn how to appreciate the small things.

@Kcmatt7 By 6 draft picks, if you mean we'll lose the entire starting team after one year, I'm not finding that exciting. I like the BIFM's, DG's, LV's. Multi-year players. Throw in a JJ, ok, maybe 2, but I want to get to know the kids and watch them develop. Who'd thunk 4 years ago that BIFM would get the recognition he's gotten this year? A kid who was ranked 131 in his class. I know next year I'll be excited again and have fun again and maybe get disappointed again. But dang, it sure beats being a purple kitty or those losers over in the middle of Mizzery. And I'll still trust in HCBS and staff.

Unfortunately, Bill has a reputation of choking in the tourney, and that is a reputation he has earned.

I agree with you - I could care less about some rather meaningless conference title win streak. Which do you all get more excited about - winning the conference or the thrill and jubilation of our players and fans after a big elite eight win? I know what I prefer.

The thing is, Bill gets tight from the pressure and his players follow suit. All there is to it. The rim gets smaller when the pressure grows.

There is no evidence next year, the year after, or any coming season will see KU in the final four. You would think Bill would have a better idea of 1. how to prepare his team for the opponent and 2. how to mentally prepare himself and the team for an elite eight game.

Fans here and other places can settle for lower goals. That is their choice. But if you dont aim and strongly desire any higher goals, you will never achieve them. I think too many are starting to believe that conference streaks are good enough and getting a couple of nice non con wins is good enough. Not for me. I love the final four. I love watching teams play in the final four. Getting there is the goal and Self has woefully underachieved compared to other coaches.

This is not "being spoiled". This is wanting achievement and accomplishment when you have all the tools you need. 04, 07, 10, 11, 13, 16 and 17 were all really, really good teams. Expecting those teams to perform to their seedline is not being a spoiled kid kcmatt. Is Coach mentally settling for smaller goals, thinking that the tourney is a crap shoot like our fan base?

@Kcmatt7 BINGO on both posts.

@brooksmd well DG, Svi, Vick, Doke, and Newman will at least have done some time in the program. Preston or if we somehow land Duvall would be our only true OAD guys. To me, a team that loaded is exciting. Throw in Bragg if he can find his jumper and get his head screwed back on all the way.

There's that Bill Self choked shit again.

@brooksmd language please.

awaiting Jaybate's analysis of Flagship Nike vs Flagship Adidas.

Nike always wins.. Can't blame it on the refs. Just the Green Men who were juiced and loaded for bear. Typical Kansas opponent who goes batshit crazy statistically..

@brooksmd don't you know coach and this team OWE these so called fans a final 4. The same fans that give up on the team 50 % of the time this past season.

@HawkChamp how bout 💩

@Crimsonorblue22 if you dont care about post season success or seeing our guys jubilant about going to the final four, then that is your choice.

But I do, but I care more about wanting it for Mason and the team who works their rears off all year, not for guys like you that gripe more than appreciate the work they put in to our program.

Everybody complaining about coach Self not winning enough national championships for them are being ridiculous! Go find another team....you know the one that wins the championship every year! When you figure out which one that is, let the rest of us know. There are only about 5 fan bases that wouldn't take Self in a heartbeat!! 350/351 schools don't win this year...let alone every year. We, as Jayhawks, should feel blessed that we have a chance every year. At least for a record 28 years in a row and counting.

@chriz If we're honest, we all feel that way to some degree. KU fans have high expectations. Ask any Mizzou fan if they're disappointed that they're not going to win the NC this year. Or ever.

Remember, when it's all said and done, there's only going to be one Champion each year.

That being said, we picked one heck of a night to shoot 20% from the 3 pt line.

@tulsajhwk BOOM! After our loss, TBS showed clips of disappointed (and defeated), great coaches talking in their post-games this tournament. It was an excellent reminder: there can be only one, and all of these coaches are our there recruiting their asses off and eating, sleeping and dreaming X's and O's.

Also, the horrible attitude by Altman and his guys in their post game interview was a stark contrast to the dignity and grace that Self showed in the interview he gave after a heartbreaking loss. We have got a Hall of Fame coach, helping kids learn how to be good men, and hella good basketball players along the way. He gives the program everything he's got and does it the right way.

Bill Self is the greatest Jayhawk of our generation. Nobody is more invested in this program. Nobody has contributed more to its success. And we are very, very lucky to have him.

Ya hearing the choking thing gets pretty old after 25 years. I'll be disappointed for awhile. I was checking some other sites and a lot folks think DG threw the game for money (ridiculous). I also had some friends that are like me and are upset why we can't play hard time(besides Mason) and time again? Are we recruiting the wrong type of players? We give KSU shit for their play hard chart but man I give a lot to see our guys play hard but it's too late now. I think I'm getting to be more of a football fan for our University. For the simple they play hard for the whole game, something our basketball team just doesn't do. People too worried about their draft status or something I guess.

@kjayhawks

Some sites = TIGERBOARD?

Bill Self is 2-7 all time in the Elite 8, 2-5 at KU, and 1-4 as the higher seeded team at KU.

I'm not going to say fire Self because the only reason you would fire Self is if there was a better option available and there's not one out there.

@approxinfinity I Think I'm glad I didn't hear Altman's post game - -from the feel/read that I'm getting sounds like he was being a complete jerk possibly? - -If he was then total did-respect BUT then again figures it's Altman never have liked this guy. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@chriz
Welcome to college basketball and the NCAA tournament !
There are no 3-out-of-5 or 4-out-of-7 rounds here, just college age kids play a single game elimination tourney.

We may have gone as far as we could without a true dominant post player.
But one thing we had this year was guys who could gut out close games and rise to the occasion- except for last night when they went flat. I truly didn't expect that.
We had a decent bracket too this year, certainly doable in theory.
The tourney-defines-our-whole-season folks on this board will of course point out that Self once again fall short of the final four, but so did Duke this year, and after today, so will NC or Kensucky.
Self changed, relaxed, adjusted and let his team play a different style this year. That style was remarkably effective. We were ranked #1 without a dominant big guy. Self is a great coach period.

And lastly, we are in a sense a victim of our own success. We are almost never the underdog, and underdogs in this tourney, remember they are college kids, get crazy motivated to play out of their minds... (we were an underdog in 2012, and we went to the final game). would anybody be surprised if Oregon fell flat on their face next weekend? Or continued to play amazingly?
Luck is a big factor here too. Oregon needed to have a great night, and for us to have a flat night, and that's exactly what happened.

And I can't believe gonzaga with all their success over the years, has NEVER been to the final four- wow.

@kjayhawks WOW. these people thinking Devonte threw the game? - -that is beyond laughable, do these so called people have a brain? - THAT is probably the most ridicilious statement I have EVER heard about any KU player, Man I need some of the stuff they smoking -might help num the pain of the loss. - - That is some crazy stuff right there, do these people eat in the same hole that they make these idiotic statements with,? - -Do they stop and think about what the hell they say or do they just let it spew out their pie holes before thinking - -Do we ( KU ) need these kind of people as fans? - - -I think not. - - Does losing hurt? - -suck? hell ya it does, but the sun still came up this morning - - Unbelievable. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@jayballer54 no acknowledgement of the other team, just patting his program on the back. That in combination with his earlier comments about not liking Kansas, and his kids' self-absorbed attitude in their post-games. That Bell kid just sat there talking about how he thought he was really good. Then the Dorsey kid talked about how good they were to beat Kansas in what was pretty much a home game for Kansas. Maybe it's easier to win when all you focus on is yourself. There may be something there.

Me, I like the obligatory acknowledgement of the other team's efforts, not talking about how good you think you were in the game, and not crapping on the other team, even if you're ignorant to the fact that you're doing it.

@approxinfinity Ya I agree, Well I hope they soak it up today because I don't believe they have a snowballs chance in hell of winning the title. - -I think the title comes from either I hate to say Kentucky OR N Carolina who ever wins that game today, dam I hate saying that but it is what I is - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

Forever in my mind, Dana Altman is a punk. But, he was a punk when he was a Grape Ape, and got run out of Manhattan. I believe Coach will figure out a way to come out on top of these games in the future, but folks, he was using duct tape in the middle with a slow LL, and no 4 ( no, Svi is not a 4 in any way, shape, or form ). If Udoka is there, he's knocking Bell on his keister. If he's there, our guards have a clear path to the goal, because when Doke seals you off, you are out of the play, period. So, going forward, what can we do to take that next step?

I think we need a Joe Dooley clone on the bench, a straight x and o guy that can bring back that elite defense back into the picture. Maybe it was such a short bench that prevented us from being elite defensively, maybe our lack of interior personnel crushed us, but we were never elite on the defense this year. That is the missing element we had with both runs to the final four. I know we have to have great recruiters, but man, I miss the days of the lockdown defense we had when Dooley was around.

Bill's approach to Elite 8 games will change, because Bill Self is a winner. Bill has shown he is adjustable, and he will adjust. The Dux were prepared for us from the opening tip. It took us about 30 minutes to finally figure out how to beat the matchup zone, and then we misfired on a ton of open looks. It was like we were trying to make up a 10 point deficit with every shot. This is where a real x and o guy can develop a plan to defeat our opponents. I thought our guys looked lost trying to figure out how to beat that team- they were more ready for us than we were for them.

Bill has a will that is stronger than horseradish. He will overcome these Elite 8 games. I realize that isn't going to be good enough for some of you. Some of you will call for the guy going into the Hall of Fame this week to be fired. That's ok - you have the right to be an ingrate. Some of you will be offended I am calling for new blood to be added to our assistants- that's ok, too. I love KU basketball. I love this coach, and this program. I have been a fan since 1971. I am privileged to follow them with you, and owe you a debt of gratitude for being there with me every game, win or lose. Remember, there is always another year. Until then, May God bless each and every one of you. RCJHGKU.

So next year coming seeding time, the committee should just say, hey remember KU plays in a terrible conference, lets knock them down a seed or 2 from what they think they should deserve. All the while giving Gonzaga a number 1 seed. Got it.

@Texas-Hawk-10 So if Calipari happened to be available, would you rather have him than Self?

Id rather be bounced in the first round in the actual tournament, than getting bounced in the first round of the NIT.

@Crimsonorblue22 said:

But I do, but I care more about wanting it for Mason and the team that works their rears off all year, not for guys like you that gripe more than appreciate the work they put in to our program.

+:100: Don't wanna be a crying ISU fan.

@Eric-san I would strongly consider it. Calipari has made 6 Final Fours in his career. Other current college coaches I would strongly consider over Self would be Roy, Izzo, Pitino, and the one I would take for sure is Coach K.

They all have superior March/April resumes to Self, and yes, I would take the occasional NIT appearance if it meant better results in March/April.

Frank deserved better from his teammates last night. Too bad they weren't in the gym with him last summer.

I thought they'd respond to adversity better. Fighting over rebounds? Graham scared to shoot?!? Josh hacking away! Aargh, Oregon didn't beat KU, KU beat KU by not showing up.

I'm really disappointed for the guys. I'm afraid next season will be a step back without our POY and stud freshman. I'm having a hard time getting excited about the future right now. I'm sure my spirits will soar once the guys get to Itally. For now I'm disappointed about back to back final four calibre teams losing at least a game short of their potiental.

Bill can't have a pity party, he's gotta go recruit his tail off and start getting next years team ready.

You may be happy with Final Four appearances, but at the end of the day, people only remember who won the national championship. And how many has Cal won so far at UK? Had Self made it past 1 more round but always got stuck at the Final Four, would you be ok with Self as coach then?

I"m never satisfied with the tournament results unless KU wins the National Championship, but I also realize how hard statistically it is to win 6 games in a row and when you have 64 teams trying to do it, your odds aren't too great.

@KUSTEVE said:

Bill's approach to Elite 8 games will change, because Bill Self is a winner. Bill has shown he is adjustable, and he will adjust. The Dux were prepared for us from the opening tip. It took us about 30 minutes to finally figure out how to beat the matchup zone, and then we misfired on a ton of open looks. It was like we were trying to make up a 10 point deficit with every shot. This is where a real x and o guy can develop a plan to defeat our opponents. I thought our guys looked lost trying to figure out how to beat that team- they were more ready for us than we were for them.

Did you really think the roster this year was solid enough for a final four? Do you really think its possible to rely on a 5' 10 guard to carry you to a title with NOTHING in the post?

We had a 6'9 center who cant jump higher than 6 inches. The first "big" off the bench looked like a 35&older player all year! This team was only going as far as its outside shot would take it. We went cold and the season ended.

I didn't see any "Out coaching".

The only thing I saw that was troubling was the lack of execution on out of bounds plays. That is usually a staple of Kansas and we had to throw it past half court on almost every out of bounds plays under our basket.

@BigBad A lack of a post presence did not cause rebounds to go off KU and into Oregons hands. It did not cause DG to air ball a shot right in front of the basket. Having a post presence definitely would've helped but you make it sound like they had no chance at all in winning last night. Down 6 Brooks bricks a 3 and actually securing the rebound and scoring on the next possession and then what all the sudden its a 1 possession game? Instead, JJ blocks the rebound from FM, and Brooks promptly swishes a 3. I saw that coming. That was the end right there.

@Eric-san All those coaches I listed, they all have at least 1 title (same as Self), but ALL of them have far more Final Four appearances than Self. Calipari's 6 is the fewest among all of those other coaches. That's 4 more than Self and he does have a title as well.

You may want titles, but guess what? You have to get to the Final Four to have that shot and tge reality is Self has sucked in the Elite 8 with his 2-7 record.

Not saying no chance of winning. But if we went cold from outside our odds go really down because we cant throw it inside and get a couple of needed buckets.

Did you see how easy Lucas was getting the ball early? Oregon knew that the best defense was to crowd our guards and concede Lucas. If our guards blew by a ton they had Bell to cover things.

@Texas-Hawk-10 I'm not arguing that Self has an Elite8 monkey, but you still have to win in the Final 4, and you still have to win the National Championship. So Cal has been to the Final 4 what 6 times? And how many times has he won the Championship? Once? You really think 1-6 in the Final 4 is better than 2-7 in the E8?

@Eric-san And how about Izzo?

Cal is better than 1 and 6 in the Final Four

@Blown I'm sure his record for the Final 4 is better than 1-6 but out of 6 Final 4 appearances, he only has 1 title does he not?

There are realistically two coaches you would hire over Self--Coack K & Coach Cal

Both of those come with their baggage, too.

Self is in the top 5 of all active coaches in the country.

@Eric-san yes 1-6 in the final four is better than 2-7 in the E8 because a final four is better. If we had had a few more final fours I'd feel better about us. That why no one talks about coach Ks 5 first weekend exits as a higher seed since 07 because he gets to the final four and has won 2 titles in that span. We have to win more titles to get to the dook level.

@Eric-san said:

You really think 1-6 in the Final 4 is better than 2-7 in the E8?

What you said was he was 1 for 6 in the final four. I said he was not.

It looks like you meant to say he was 1 for 3 in the championship game.

@Texas-Hawk-10 said:

reality is Self has sucked in the Elite 8 with his 2-7 record

Have you ever thought that the record, and the high seedings, might reflect Self's ability to take good teams higher than they might have deserved, rather than underachieving once there?

@Eric-san Yes, 1-5 in the Final Four is absolutely better than 2-7 in the Elite 8. That's 4 more opportunities than Self has had to win a title.

@mayjay do you think that VCU, UCLA, GT, Nova and Oregon were all better teams than us? I definitely don't.

@Texas-Hawk-10 Isn't every loss in the tourney an opportunity lost at winning the title? Does it REALLY matter if you lose in the E8 or F4?

@kjayhawks Well thats why you play the game is it not? Why play at all if the better team should always win.

Yes Final Fours are an important bench mark. I think they do matter more than EE. It's another entire week of having your brand out there.

I agree with @Texas-Hawk-10 Self sucks in the elite 8. It's not even a debate. He's had the better team most the time and lost. Now still love Self but it's very very frustrating to lose so many times at the same point.

@BShark That's where we will agree to disagree. I honestly don't care if KU gets bounced in the e8 or F4, if it means they didn't win the national championship.

Cal vs Self is tough. If Cal takes ANOTHER title this year then really what can you say...

@BShark I will take back everything I said in this thread, if Cal ends up winning the big one this year.

@Eric-san I agree, that's why it's march madness. But the better team usually goes better than 2-5 like we are in that round.

@Eric-san

Fair enough. I think we have enough evidence to say it's more than coincidence with Self and the EE at this point. But I mean, Self gets to the EE a LOT, so there is that.

@mayjay So let's look at Self's Elite 8 teams that lost at KU. 2004, KU was a 4 seed and lost a 3 seed Georgia Tech, not an issue. 2007, 1 seed KU lost to 2 seed UCLA, not much shame there because UCLA was a top 5 team. 2011, KU lost VCU, anybody who claims that isn't embarrassing is an idiot. 2016, 1 seed KU lost to 2 seed Nova and played like crap on offense. No reason KU should've lost that one. Last night, 1 seed KU lost to 3 seed Oregon because Self refused to make any and tell his guards to drive the damn ball. He chose to die by the 3 instead.

Self has flat out sucked in the Elite 8. 2004 is the only year I can think of that KU has reached 70 points in the Elite 8 under Self. Self butt puckers up so tight that you couldn't even fit a paper clip in there. He's been good in every other round, but for whatever reason, Self just sucks in the Elite 8.

It's really only the E8 game for whatever reason. Self has as good of record as anyone in the FF and the NC game. And better than most thus far. And he is the guy that only gets better from here. I believe that. He knows it's a problem. Any other time he knows something needs adjusted or tweaked he does that. He will do this too. His best tournament runs are yet to come. We're just spoiled and impatient. And we should be. It's KU

Three point percentage in the losses I could find. GT isn't showing status.

Consistent theme in the EE losses.

3pt %

Oregon 20

Nova 27

UCLA 50

VCU 9

@Eric-san Yes, it matters. Would you rather have Self's or Izzo's resume?

@Texas-Hawk-10

Lowest points KU scored ALL SEASON last night.

I would take Self over Izzo.

Self is 8 years younger.

Besides, if Izzy was our coach ya'll would be doing the same damn thing with him....

"Seven final fours and 1 championship isn't enough--he just can't get over the hump"

@Texas-Hawk-10 Are we talking about the Izzo that hasn't won a title since 2000? 7 final fours in 18 years? Once again, Final Fours are great, if it leads to a National Championship. I'll take my chances with Self.

@Blown

Anyone that thinks recruiting hits rough patches for KU now would LOSE THEIR MIND with Izzo.

@BShark And only 59 points last year in the EE. That is the problem. We go from averaging over 90 down to scoring 60. The Dux D is good, but not that good. We just looked flat all night and it only takes one flat game to send you home.

@BShark

Agree bu it does sometimes feel like Duke, UK, and UNC to some extent get their choices and then the rest are fighting for scraps.

I remember in 2003 when Roy missed all those free throws. That was annoying, too.

@BigBad thats because they do. But Josh Jackson and Wiggins & the like are pretty decent scraps. We just don't get 2-3 of them every year. Our lack of a skilled scorer inside last night was a huge hole. You can blame that on Braggs lack of development.

@BigBad

Duke always closes their leans it seems. Team USA thing helps a lot and K is a "living legend". Lately UK misses a fair bit, if you look at the final classes for them they aren't bad because they need a ton of guys every year but 2015 in particular UK missed on a lot of their first choices. Self seems to have good and bad spurts in recruiting. Diallo and now Bragg struggling has hurt a lot. Now with Bragg it's very clear that he just isn't as good as his HS hype, but it still hurts in recruiting. Fortunately Josh was fantastic this year and I hope Preston and Doke tear it up next year. We have seen what having unathletic bigs looks like and it's not pretty.

@Big-Clyde52 said:

@BShark And only 59 points last year in the EE. That is the problem. We go from averaging over 90 down to scoring 60. The Dux D is good, but not that good. We just looked flat all night and it only takes one flat game to send you home.

Agree. It's a very negative trend and denying it at this point seems crazy. For whatever reason, Self's teams play tight in EE games. Even in the wins.

@Blown said:

I remember in 2003 when Roy missed all those free throws. That was annoying, too.

Not the same thing we are talking about now 7 games for Self at KU where the team has played tight. Players do pick up on things from their coach. There are still very few coaches I would trade Self for though.

@Blown

I was so, so wrong about Bragg. :frowning:

@BShark How can you tell if coach was tight or not? Is it simply a direct correlation you draw between poor shooting?

@Blown

Self has openly commented about how hard elite eight games are. And the players have been tight you could really say in every EE game. In 2012 KU bullied a UNC team missing their PG, in 2008 they escaped Davidson in an otherwise great tournament that ended fantastically.

@Eric-san So Izzo has the same number of titles as Self and 4 times the Final Four appearances which means four times better chances to win a title.

@Blown Self reverted to form last night. Stopped subbing and quit making adjustments in the second half. Vick played reasonably well in the first half and actually scored. Why wasn't he playing over Graham in the 2nd half who couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat last night? Why wasn't he telling Mason, Jackson, amd Graham to drive the ball and get to FT line since the 3's weren't falling?

Self's butt was than the security at Ft. Knox last night just like it has been in every Elite 8 game.

@Texas-Hawk-10 Yea Izzo had 4 more chances at the title, but does chances equal winning? He hasn't won a title in those 4 trips anyway, so does it really matter that Izzo made it to the Final 4?

Everyone needs a day to process the loss. Nothing productive ever comes from bagging on things when the loss is so fresh. I'm just as guilty of it as the next person on here.

It sucks we lost especially how we played to get to this point. And the guys just didn't respond how we hoped or wanted them too.

@Texas-Hawk-10 I agree on the driving. I said at about the 6-7 minute mark that they needed to start driving every play. I don't know why they didn't other than the fact that Bell completely owned the paint blocked everything in sight without even getting 2 fouls called on him all game. 8 blocks. That's big time.

As far as everything else goes: there is no explanation for the missed shots. Many were wide open looks and we just bricked them.

Part of the tightness could be attributed to 4 of the five starters experiencing last years elite 8 loss.

A big 'what if' I will always wonder is how much losing Josh 2 minutes into the game impacted the overall mentality. That second foul was bullsh**

It's all about the ride to the end, and no other school or team has a better ride during the season than KU does on a regular basis. It is just as important to enjoy the whole season as a fan, as opposed to the last 3 weeks of a single round elimination tournament, where the best team doesn't always win.

Matt Tait said we were loose as always in warmups. Perhaps we all tightened up when josh got his 2nd foul w/17 plus left? Completely changed the game. I think we were only 1 down when he came back in which speaks well for Vick. But josh was not the same! Oregon was our perfect storm no matter which game it was. Completely exposed our loss of Doke. Dg had an off pm. Oregon looked really good.

@BeddieKU23 said:

Everyone needs a day to process the loss. Nothing productive ever comes from bagging on things when the loss is so fresh. I'm just as guilty of it as the next person on here.

It sucks we lost especially how we played to get to this point. And the guys just didn't respond how we hoped or wanted them too.

Well said. This board has been really great in comparison to the drivel on 247 and phog though.

@Crimsonorblue22 Losing JJ that early probably reminded the team of the TCU game and started panicking. As pressure started building, emotions started taking over.

I was actually shocked to see JJ come back in with 10 minutes left. I thought Vick played just fine up to that point. And because JJ had to be careful of picking up a 3rd, he started to think instead of reacting. In hindsight would have been better to just sit JJ to the half, let him gain composure, and refocus to begin the 2nd half.

@Eric-san said:

I was actually shocked to see JJ come back in with 10 minutes left. I thought Vick played just fine up to that point. And because JJ had to be careful of picking up a 3rd, he started to think instead of reacting. In hindsight would have been better to just sit JJ to the half, let him gain composure, and refocus to begin the 2nd half.

Agree here and think that a close game at half telling the team Josh didnt even play would build confidence. However its a gamble. Self probably saw how Oregon's best athlete Bell was controlling things and how Mason was our only option. He knew we needed our best athlete to stay close.

@BigBad I wonder why Vegas had us as 7 point favorites. It is amazing we even had a .500 record with the way you describe our players. The 5'10" guy happened to be the NPOY. Our record in EE games is now 2-5. That wasn't a relaxed team I saw out there- that was a jazzed up team that played scared. Nice job picking out what you feel is a sleight in my post. Sounds like you want to pick a fight. Welcome to the board, btw.

@Eric-san said:

I was actually shocked to see JJ come back in with 10 minutes left. I thought Vick played just fine up to that point.

I thought so, too, but then it occurred to me that Vick usually subs when someone needs a rest. DC was in for Lucas, so Josh had to come in to give Svi and Vick a rest. And Svi did come back with some energy esp on defense.

@KUSTEVE said:

@BigBad I wonder why Vegas had us as 7 point favorites. It is amazing we even had a .500 record with the way you describe our players. The 5'10" guy happened to be the NPOY. Our record in EE games is now 2-5. That wasn't a relaxed team I saw out there- that was a jazzed up team that played scared. Nice job picking out what you feel is a sleight in my post. Sounds like you want to pick a fight. Welcome to the board, btw.

I'm not picking a fight. I've learned to not fall into the Bill Self trap. EVERY year his teams exceed their talent level in their regular season. Then when a tourney match up up with a team with better talent playing well beats us. I dont usually get disappointed. Heck against VCU we, a freaking blue blood, were starting Brady Morningstar and Tyrel Reed. Great ROLE players but not final four caliber players. I wasnt surprised.

This year we depended on a very small player. Frank is great! However once the talent levels out and size becomes a huge factor we are in trouble.

@Blown Oregon lost to Oklahoma in the Elite 8 last year. They were in the same boat as us and they were cocky and arrogant beyond belief last night.

@BigBad Oregon does not have better talent than Kansas.

You know who would've been a perfect counter to Bell? Carlton Bragg. He had every opportunity to develop and elevate his game this season and just could not get it to click. He can't even claim having off the court issues as a reason because others on the team has had it much worse than Bragg.

@Eric-san said:

You know who would've been a perfect counter to Bell? Carlton Bragg. He had every opportunity to develop and elevate his game this season and just could not get it to click. He can't even claim having off the court issues as a reason because others on the team has had it much worse than Bragg.

Um, Bell is like two weight classes over Bragg in addition to being a great shot-blocker. There really is just no comparison. Carlton Bragg was never a real 4.

@BigBad Anybody who thinks length wasn't a big factor wasn't paying attention last night. They had big guards that shot over us with confidence.

@betterfireE I was just talking about being able to match up in size. Bell 6-9 225 Bragg 6-9 240.

@betterfireE weren't they 6-2 6-2 6-4 6-7 and 6-9?

@Eric-san

The height and weight might be comparable but they are worlds apart.

@BShark That I agree with, hence the rest of my comment about Bragg not developing.

@Texas-Hawk-10 good point. Is that from their coach? I heard their post game was bad. Didn't watch it myself. Stem from contrasting leadership? Frank humble. Brooks an ass?

@Texas-Hawk-10 said:

@BigBad Oregon does not have better talent than Kansas.

I said "However once the talent levels out and size becomes a huge factor we are in trouble."

The talent was level was very, very close last night and the size/length goes to Oregon.

Graham's lack of athleticism really showed last night. Dorsey/Graham and Bell/Lucas is where Oregon had clear cut drastic advantages.

@Blown Dillon Brooks is in the Grayson Allen level of ass. Just as dirty as Allen too.

I want to see Graham come back as much as anyone but he will not be Mason-ish next year, just not the same kind of player.

@Texas-Hawk-10

It was somewhat hilarious when K chastised Brooks last year.

@BigBad Bullcrap it does. Mason was the only player smaller than the guy he was guarding, but that's the case almost every single game.

@BigBad Frank got his, and the team got what they wanted from Frank this game.

@Texas-Hawk-10

Graham, Svi and Lucas have decent size for their positions, athleticism is the issue.

@BShark I'm not gonna argue the athleticism, but that's not what @BigBad is saying. He's saying size and length and KU was had an advantage everywhere except for Mason who is a great defender period and can guard bigger than his size.

@BShark said:

Graham's lack of athleticism really showed last night. Dorsey/Graham and Bell/Lucas is where Oregon had clear cut drastic advantages.

Most here dont want to hear that.

Graham has used the attention Frank gets to get wide open shots and then uses his spastic head fake to clear himself from lower level defenders. Against size and length and equal quickness he struggles.

@Eric-san

Agree but the fact that nobody else could do anything we became one dimensional. Tough to win that way.

We have been 1 dimensional all year.

Excellent 3

Average perimeter D

Below average interior d

Below average low post scoring

Below average free throw

All of those factored in last night

@Blown Live by the 3, die by the 3.

@BigBad The fact that you think I'm anti-Self is hilarious...lol. I am regularly chided by a whole slew of people on here as a "sunshine pumper". I don't think we attacked the Oregon defense correctly, which had a direct impact on our 3 point %. We kept trying to drive the lane through the matchup zone, which will not work. Frank had success doing it for awhile, but they took that away. Once our perimeter guys drove past the first defender, they were met by two other Dux. the easy play would be to pass it off to a set shooter on the wing, as JJ finally did to Svi with about 12 minutes to go. But that's not what we did. Drive after drive into the heart of the defense- or rushing heavily guarded threes from the perimeter. Of course we aren't going to make 3s when we aren't open. We had to draw the defense in, and then make the pass to the open wing when their defense collapsed. You aren't going to convince me we couldn't have beat this team, so lets leave it at that.

If at Late Night we were told that: Bragg would have ZERO impact on the season and Azibuke would be lost due to injury what would have been the expectations for this team?

I would bet that EVERYONE would agree that an Elite 8 run would be outstanding.

This was another (very) disappointing loss, and emotions are raw in the moment, both for the players and the fans. But I don't why everything has to be black and white - about the season, about Self, and about our tournament performance.

By all measures except one - a big one admittedly - this was a very successful season - 30+ wins, 13th consecutive conference crown - NPOY - Self showing more adaptability with his players than ever before, with entertaining results - a team with more grit and determination perhaps than many other recent Jayhawk teams - beat UK and Duke - epic comeback against WVU. Frank will go down as one of the all time greats at KU. JJ was the best OAD we've had - at least in terms of his play at KU. A lot to be grateful for and appreciative of with this team.

But that shouldn't preclude a thoughtful discussion of the whys and wherefores of falling short again with regard to the goal each and every year at KU (yes we are blessed and cursed by high expectations) - a national championship or at least a Final Four appearance.

The numbers are what they are. Self's 2-7 record in E8 games is what most folks are pointing the finger at. The one that really gets me is that we've had 8 #1 seeds during the Self era and have reached the FF only once during that time ('08). I haven't gone back and checked this, but I think we have only beaten a higher seed team once during the Self era?

The bottom line is that we've consistently fallen short of playing to our expected seed over a long period of time during the tournament. That is a fact. The question is why? Luck? That may have something to do with, but again, it's not a one, two or three time thing. Have we (and by extension the B12) been seeded higher than we should have? Probably yes to a degree, but that should actually make EASIER to advance further. And, advanced metrics have largely supported KUs seed most years - at least within a seed line.

Is something else going on? Is coaching an aspect - in terms of preparation, in-game adjustments, and the dreaded "tightness" factor? Perhaps it is inherently unknowable - certainly isn't provable. By I'm one that has always had the feeling that Self does tighten up during the tournament and it is something could well be felt by and impact the players. It is most manifested in his substitution patters (or lack thereof) during the tournament. That our guys played not to lose, rather than playing to win.

I thought this year was different - that this team had a different character and swagger. But, after yesterday's game, I don't know what to think. Oregon struggled to put away URI and Michigan - could easily have lost either game. Didn't really dominate Iona in the first round. Yet all 3 of those teams scored more points against Oregon than we did. We had our worst shooting %s and lowest point total of the year (eerily reminiscent of last year and other E8 results).

It took us forever to figure out their match-up on zone and adapt. We kept taking shots from the perimeter - some way too quickly - and didn't drive the ball nearly enough (Frank did for a awhile, with good results). Perhaps we were cowed by Bell? Clearly having JJ on the bench hurt and while we were only down 1 when he came back in, he probably was playing less aggressively than he otherwise would have (and did in the second half).

How much of the game yesterday was on Self and how much of the KU performance in the tournament over the past decade and a half is on Self? I think some of it has to be - he is the one constant. Having said that, he is without question one of the small handful of best college coaches, a Hall of Famer, and I would still rather have Self than any other coach in the game - yes. But that doesn't mean he is or should be immune from a critical assessment of why we continue to fall short of ours and his expectations.....

A very disappointing loss, but, hey, what a spectacular season! And the near future looks just as promising, maybe more so, esp. if Graham and/or Svi returns.
We must keep upbeat, esp. for Frank and his charge toward national POY. What a gold nugget he has been for this program. Bill Self is fond of proclaiming: Live by the 3, die by the 3. Even so, I think we would have won this contest but for the work of that big kid Bell. We had little answer for his ability to rebound, block shots and stay out of foul trouble. Bill and Co. ran offense his direction again and again, but could not surpass his dominance. It is what it is. Now, on to 2017-18. Hope springs eternal said a dead poet. (Or maybe he was very much alive when he said that....)

@BigBad

Graham is a really good college player but it was made clear last night why he likely isn't an NBA guy. I think Frank has a better chance to stick. Never a starter but a guy that hangs around the league a bit as a back-up PG. He can really shoot it and is actually athletic, just short. Newman is pretty athletic, we just need to hope he has really taken to coaching in his year off.

@Blown said:

We have been 1 dimensional all year.

Excellent 3

Average perimeter D

Below average interior d

Below average low post scoring

Below average free throw

All of those factored in last night

Like I said earlier this year, a slightly better version of the good recent ISU teams. We have been spoiled with good interior play in the past, and I hope it returns.

@BigBad said:

If at Late Night we were told that: Bragg would have ZERO impact on the season and Azibuke would be lost due to injury what would have been the expectations for this team?

I would bet that EVERYONE would agree that an Elite 8 run would be outstanding.

Agree. The reason people are mad is because the FF was so close, but this team overachieved.

@REHawk great way to say it w/out throwing a player under the bus! And our coach!

@DCHawker I'd say luck played a small factor at least in terms of injury and the starting 5 position.

2017 - KU loses Udoka who would have been the post anchor this team needed.
2016 - KU spends thousands on Diallo, just never panned out. You could argue Diallo never got the time to develop. But we can all agree at the end Diallo was not who we thought he would be.
2015 - Cliff Alexander indefinitely suspended for remainder of season due to eligibility concerns. I'm not convinced the results would have changed, but still sucks that had to happen.
2014 - Embiid goes down. No further comment.

A lot of what happened was outside of KU's control so I'd put that under the luck category.

My college roommates daughter and son in law paid 500 bucks to be in the arena. I'm sure they're feeling worse than any of us!

Every year the same thing happens. We lament the unexpected ending to the season. We write dumb things like fire the coach, I'm finding a new team, I'm not going to paint my house crimson and blue after all, and then perspective sets in. We get a few late signees, baseball starts, summer comes around, we tinker with our lineup choices and then bootcamp, and we're freshly enthusiastic for the next season. Same thing will happen this year. We'll be back in the conversation again, and again, and again. We're going to win again one of these years. Keep the faith.

@DCHawker said:

How much of the game yesterday was on Self and how much of the KU performance in the tournament over the past decade and a half is on Self? I think some of it has to be - he is the one constant. Having said that, he is without question one of the small handful of best college coaches, a Hall of Famer, and I would still rather have Self than any other coach in the game - yes. But that doesn’t mean he is or should be immune from a critical assessment of why we continue to fall short of ours and his expectations…

Couldn't have said it better myself.

@wissox said:

We’re going to win again one of these years. Keep the faith.

Actually, I appreciate the optimism.

@Eric-san said:

@betterfireE I was just talking about being able to match up in size. Bell 6-9 225 Bragg 6-9 240.

I don't know what their stats say, but the eye test is more important. Bell was thick like Coleby, and Colby is a bigger dude than Bragg with wider shoulders.

Graham had a horrible game. Vick has a limited skill set at this point.
We have no offense from the post.

What adjustment was he supposed to make?

@betterfireE Fair enough. If we are talking about hypotheticals, I should have just said Udoka is the perfect counter to Bell.

@BigBad said:

@BShark said:

Graham's lack of athleticism really showed last night. Dorsey/Graham and Bell/Lucas is where Oregon had clear cut drastic advantages.

Most here dont want to hear that.

Graham has used the attention Frank gets to get wide open shots and then uses his spastic head fake to >clear himself from lower level defenders. Against size and length and equal quickness he struggles.

Graham also never could quite drive like Mason, and I think Oregon realized that. Graham has been reluctant to take it to the rim or use a floater. He will need to add more to his repertoire for next season.

Undoubtedly, a very painful loss, and adds fuel to the thought that KU is weirdly "snake bitten," when it comes to March Madness. Under Roy and Self. Always a Bridesmaid, never a Bride. It hurts, and there have been so many factors (players, coaching, injuries, cold shooting nights, off court issues, etc.) that have given rise to our unexpected exits.

But if you would have told me that KU would beat Duke, Kentucky, Michigan State, Purdue, Baylor, West Virginia, ISU,, KSU, win their 13th straight Big12 Conference Title (that's incredibly whack!), make it to the EE, and have a 31-5 record, I would have said "I'LL TAKE IT. I would still love to have a NC, but I'LL TAKE IT!. Other than the 13 straight, I would of course, trade all of the above for a NC. .But damn, we DID have a pretty frickin' good year by any measure.

I didn't expect a NC when the season started, but really thought we could pull it off this year as it progressed, and believed we were destined to exceed expectations. It didn't happen. I am proud of our team and coach, and I look forward to the excitement of next season. We're gonna be very good again! .

@betterfireE

Graham has been a complimentary player his entire career at KU. It would definitely do him some good to come back and have a starring role imo.

@Texas-Hawk-10 Yeah I wouldn't trade Self for anyone... yet the results in terms of FF and NC are disappointing.

NCAA record 28 straight years in the tournament and just 1 NC. That feels cursed.

@HawkChamp Sounds like wanting in one hand then crapping in the other. At least you're a consistent whiner. Congrats 🎉🎈🎊🍾

@approxinfinity It appears that Coach Altman did a masterful job of getting his team to have a hatred on the basketball court for KU. That was the difference in the game. KU came out expecting to play as the 1 seed, close to their home court, basically having all of the advantages. Oregon on the other hand, had a coach that has had enough of getting his behind handed to him by KU. In hindsight, this factor was greatly underestimated. Based on the way their team and coach behaved after the game, the hate was obvious. They talked about sending the KU Fans home, about KU having home court advantage and about putting the Jayhawks to sleep. It looks like this was the opportunity they were playing for, from the time the tournament started. They were bold I their shot selection and wildly celebrated, which gave them a psychological advantage and left our team a step slow and flat footed as some players began to think too much and self doubt crept in. I think we came in prepared and with a good game plan. We were not prepared to lose Jackson in 2 and a half minutes and for the amount of anger and fearlessness that Oregon played with. Some of our players blinked, when they were being stared at and when you lose focus in the Elite 8, you go home.

@KansasComet you're right man. They had the edge psychologically coming in, and while we had a solid plan second half, as @ajvan said in the other thread, JJ and Devonte never got their swag back.

@approxinfinity I could not agree more.

@KansasComet I can see how that happened. My thing is, it's always something. Why are we 5 times out of 7 saying the other team has some trick that got them to the Final Four and we just couldn't do it?

Don't get me wrong, glad to have been there the 2 times we were. But for a team that was supposed to win at least 4 out of those other 5 times, why didn't we?

It's always something. And that was okay for me for the past few occurrences. But I guess this year put me over the top. If they're favored in the Elite Eight again next year, who would I put money on? Not KU. And that's not good.

@HawkChump and @notokayhawks

I totally get that it sucks to lose. I also get that it's human nature to want to blame someone for our disappointment. And I realize that we all have different ways of expressing grief, I was pretty crushed last night too.

But posters like you make me wish there was a mute feature on this site. This is a "fan" site. I came to these boards last night during the game because I wanted to hangout with fans who cheer their team on through thick and thin. Like DoubleD was. Even after being down by 20 and playing one of the worst games of our season we still fought back to a two possession game with a few minutes left.

But reading both of you whine the whole game totally killed the board experience for me.

Yes, you have the right to post whatever you want, but maybe for next season's games you could start a separate thread for the negative whiners to bitch and moan and see who can outcomplain each other, and leave the other game thread for people who try to send out hope and positive vibes to others here, and to the team we care so much about and that gives us so much enjoyment.

I'll end with my own two cents worth about the game... we played hard, we were not outcoached, we did not choke, we aren't recruiting the wrong type of players, the refs did not lose the game for us, we were not overseeded... we simply had a night where some key players got cold and the opponents had players that got insanely hot. 4 out 5 times we beat that team.

Two teams take the court and play a game of a thousand subtle variables. Even though one team often has an edge, outcomes are not pre-destined. That's why winning feels so good.

First off it was a tremendously successful year even though we came up short of the FF. I think what Frank Mason and his team accomplished was phenomenal. What a great one and done in JJ. I would not trade our team and coach for any other. I did start to have some concerns last Wednesday at the shoot around though. Oregon was scheduled before us and came out on time and worked hard on shooting drills for the full 50 minutes. Their sense of urgency was obvious. KU on the other hand came out 10 minutes after their start time and took it really easy. At the end they spent about 5 minutes chucking up shots from half court. Then they retreated back to the locker room with a full 10 minutes of practice time left. I may be way out in left field here but as a team I felt Oregon played with more intensity and sense of purpose. Part of that might be due to the fact we were blowing teams out prior to this game. Regardless of the outcome I can't wait to see what HCBS has in store next season. Rock Chalk!

@chriz This isn't just a KU issue, this is a Bill Self issue going back to at least Tulsa. This is the 6th time a Bill Self team has had their worst offensive game of the season in the Elite 8 and KU is just 1-5 in those games. There is some kind of issue with Self in the Elite 8 that he has yet to figure out and at this point, I don't have the confidence in him to ever figure it out. People keep saying that he'll figure it out, but when? There's a pretty significant sample size out there now that says Bill Self won't figure out at this point and I'm at the point now where I'll have to see it to believe it.

Bill Self and Jay Wright are pretty much the same coach at this point. Both have a pair of Final Fours with miracle titles, but both also consistently underachieve in the NCAA tournament.

This was a tough loss because we seemed so on a roll, but there were a lot of bad things that happened last night. Some the players fault. Some Self's fault, and some was just the CBB Gods not shining upon us.

The first was actually way way back in November/December when Doke got hurt. That piece hurts us big time if you ask me. He was what this team needed coming off of the bench. Doke could have at least checked Bell in the post and really changed the game at the rim on the defensive end.

Second, JJ picked up two quick fouls and that immediately made us pucker right up. The guys didn't know what to do. And they seemed tentative after that on defense which allowed both Brooks and Dorsey to get in a rhythm early.

Third, Bell intimidated us early on and we got scared of him for the rest of the game. Landen couldn't hang with him. It was the first time all year I felt like Landen was just outmatched by a guy that was both more athletic and strong enough to beat him. Just the way it is. Old Bill would have had a stable of Danny Manning coached big men to throw at Bell and get him in foul trouble and beat him up enough that we could have handled him. But this team didn't have the bodies or the talent down low to hang with Bell. Instead he had free roam on both sides of the floor and after a couple of blocked shots we really were scared. DG passed up 3 or 4 open threes he normally takes because Bell was the one closing out. Frank completely altered his shot in the lane when he drove missing several shots he would normally make. Bell dominated this game. He was the difference maker and there is no question about it.

And that leads me to my fourth point. Bill didn't game plan well enough to deal with Bell. Bell switches with everyone all the time. Instead of going directly at Bell the first 20 minutes of the game to ensure he got in foul trouble and had to walk on egg shells, we avoided him. And we watched enough Cole and Withey to know that shot blockers love to play help defense more than anything. We allowed Bell to do that. We should have attempted to switch JJ and Frank on him every possession. Get him on the bench or at least scared to foul. We didn't do this, at least from what I saw, and that is 100% on Bill. Hindsight is 20/20, but he gets paid the big bucks to be able to make these adjustments.

Fifth point, sometimes it isn't our destiny or the stars didn't align or Karma hits or whatever you believe. The back to back 3s to end the half were just a sign of "no matter what you do, this won't be your night." Dorsey hitting an NBA 3 with a hand in his face at the end of the shot clock is a sign. JJ picking up two fouls immediately is a sign. Going 0-12 or something like that to start the 2nd half is a sign. It just wasn't mean to be. And we have to see that.

Finally, what the hell is it about the Sprint Center? We suck there. I mean we are awful in that building. Purdue was an outlier if you ask me. I was at the Davidson game a few years back. We are only 5/9 in Big XII Tournament Championship IN KANSAS CITY. We even get practice games there early in the year. It is absurd. And I just can't figure out why the hell that is.

Anyhow, that's my perception on what happened.

@Jyhwk4life I do know the other day we practiced at another high school before we went to sprint center

@Texas-Hawk-10 Roy went his first 13 years without a 3rd FF at KU. In fact, he couldn't get passed the friggen sweet 16 basically from 94 to 01. But then he figured it out. He went to two back to back final fours and then has been on a tear at UNC. He figured it out at age 52. There is still time for Bill to figure it out. In fact, going to the elite 8 that many times is an accomplishment all on its own in my opinion. Not a lot of coaches have been able to even say that.

I'm not saying Bill does his best job in the elite 8, but I'm just saying there is time for him to figure it out. He is an elite coach and is bound to figure it out. He really just needs to get the monkey off his back one time.

We are sitting here arguing about why Self can't win in the Elite 8. #firstworldproblems.

At worst, Self is what the 4th best coach in CBB?

Things could be worse.

@Eric-san You have dredged and come up with a string of definite facts. We have really missed those big guys who did not return. And Doke's injury likely made for a huge difference this season.

@Eric-san you r the best!

@Eric-san and I wouldn't trade him! I'd be like Josh, pick self over izzo!