🏀 KuBuckets Archive

Did Bill cost us the game by not pulling Doke in light of OU strategy of fouling Doke every time?

I say yes.

Next time Self wants to throw the game I wish he would warn us ahead of time.

This game was winnable. Threw it away. What the hell?

ESPN is missing the big story

This loss is on coaching late in the game

Very winnable game. Should have put them away.

So bad.

Trae Young actually 13?

Why pull Dok for fouls? I’d leave him in as long as the other team wasn’t in the bonus. Once they’re in the bonus it’s pine time big guy.

Lesson for doke, period

Yes he absolutely cost us the game. An elite eight style choke for Self again.

Yes. 4 trips down the floor with nothing when OU was also doing nothing. As soon as Lon did it the first time.....you have to take him out.

Reminiscent of the Michigan choke.

@HawkChamp it’s unexplainable. Worse than any elite 8 failure to adapt that I’ve seen. Obviously not same consequence, but can only be explained if he wanted to drive a lesson home to Doke. But really. Do that with film and coaching after you put your team in best position to win the damn game.

Of course, Devonte going 4-19 didn't help.

Ok, bad game in Norman. What did you expect? KU is still leading B12. Damn, lighten up. Live, learn, and play another day. It's the B12.

@Bwag It wasn't winnable. It was won. Play Mitch and make freebies and it was game over. Inexplicable for Bill to do that.

Self was out coached, doesn’t happen often but it’s a tough loss to take when you control the whole second half. We played not to lose the last 3 minutes. We scored 2 points in the stretch, we ran clock and shot contested 3s or threw it in to Doke who finished 1/7from the line. Graham just took too many shots when his wasn’t falling but in the end ig if he’d just fired the 3 instead of passing to Doke maybe he would’ve hit one or 2. This makes big Monday next week huge.

Absolutely on CS. Plain and simple. And it has nothing to do with teaching a lesson. You teach players the mechanics of a free throw in practice. Which has clearly not been done. The team had this game won. The coach was outcoached by Lon Kreuger... Smh.

Doke did get screwed with his first foul which really hurt us in the first half. However, we played well enough to overcome that. I can't wait to hear quotes from his postgame interview.

Playing at KSU for first place. KSU is going to win the league aren't they? WOW.

@BShark Tie*

Not in Bruce's nature to win something on his own.

Yeah I meant tie, my bad. They will claim it as a win tho.

The absolute minute Self saw OU employing the poke a Doke strategy, Self should have pulled Doke. We got zero points on four of five possessions, all on the fouls of Udoka. @cragarhawk - You're right, no player should be permitted to shoot free throws like that. Period. @Kcmatt7 I want to hear Self say that Udoka will never shoot another free throw like that. Coach him.

And for those that say you can't change mechanics midseason, that's does not apply here. Doke has no mechanics from the line. There is nothing good about what Doke does from the free throw line. Zero.

Like I said on another thread. - -Statement of the decade Self " - -this loss is on me - -I screwed it up " -No shit sherlock. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

HighEliteMajor said:

The absolute minute Self saw OU employing the poke a Doke strategy, Self should have pulled Doke. We got zero points on four of five possessions, all on the fouls of Udoka. @cragarhawk - You're right, no player should be permitted to shoot free throws like that. Period. @Kcmatt7 I want to hear Self say that Udoka will never shoot another free throw like that. Coach him.

And for those that say you can't change mechanics midseason, that's does not apply here. Doke has no mechanics from the line. There is nothing good about what Doke does from the free throw line. Zero.

STILL can't comprehend WHY he didn't put Cunliffe in - -go with 5 smalls, ok - so they might score there 2 - but I tell you this, you sure the hell aren't seeing them just hack away. - -Why couldn't he put Mitch back in - -I DO NOT get this

Self said he thought back to what a former NBA player said when he took a player out - you just told your player that you have no confidence in him at the end of a game - -YA - - and? - he admitted he screwed up - that this is on him - -dam straight it on you.

Absolutely on you, Coach Self! What did you think you were going to accomplish? I have never coached (other than academic teams), but I do know you try to put kids in a situation where they can be successful. Deliberately setting them up to fail makes things worse. What effect did this have on the other players? I felt so sorry for Devonte in the interview room. He was taking all the blame. No, Devonte, this is not on you. It is on your Hall of Fame coach--who was solidly out-coached.

Free throw comparison: OU shoots 25. Kansas shoots 14, and thats with 6 of them being intentional in the last 4 minutes. Without the hack a doke, it's 25 FTA to 8 FTA. That's just ridiculous.

Graham going one for 1-9 sucked, but what was most frustrating was that he seemed to be playing hero ball at times like he had to prove he was better that TY.

Self said post game that he won't try to change Doke's mechanics midseason and said he thought Doke's misses looked better than his previous games misses.

I sensed that Self wasn't coaching for this Win leaving Doke in there. His post game comments reflected that he may think this could motivate him to improve and come into play down the road.

Either way you look at it, in my opinion, this L is on Self. He said you don't take your best players out of the game. But you also put your best FT players in the game when the team is intentionally fouling. Just flabbergasted at the way he handled those last 4 minutes.

Great move by Self. Let a guy play through his issues. Let him know you have confidence in him, so he can be in the game at the end of a close game in the tourney.

Must have been tough for Self. This is literally the first game I've seen him not try to win at all cost for the greater good of the season.

This new and improved Hall of Fame coach Self probably would have benched Brady and played EJ more.

@DanR LOVE your sarcasm. That crap sounds like me.

For the love of all that is holy, please tell me you are kidding.

Self should be signing autographs for everyone in Norman tonight.

@HighEliteMajor tbh, I don't know if coaching will fix Doke's free throw problems.

Therefore, this loss is 100% on Self imo.

The assumption that Doke can shoot better from the line is just that. An assumption. He may just never be able to shoot free throws well. He may have just came to the game too late to develop a touch shooting the ball.

Here's what's worse. Self and staff have known from day one that Doke is a free throw disaster. And this is what we see? Doke shot under 40% last season. What have we been doing since then? What's even worse, Doke injured his left wrist last season? How much work did not get done on his free throw shooting while he was out? How difficult would it have been to work on and at least gain some semblance of a proper form shot from the line? Unreal.

@nuleafjhawk sarcasm? people have been screaming for this for years: Let players play through their issues and learn during games when it counts.

@DanR you don't play through your issues in the last two minutes of a game with a proven 40% success rate when you have 5 other players who double that.

Play the best players.

@DanR You play through your issues in practice. You try to win the F-ing games.

@Bwag Of course Self lost this game. Even worse he may have cost us the streak. Instead of 7-1 and in complete control of the conference, we are now going to have to scramble and claw to win it. I am still in disbelief of the way he blew this game. Complete stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again and failing each time. And I do not give a damn what excuse he uses for doing it. Build confidence? Bull Sht! Send a message? Bull Sht!! There is absolutely no excuse to take away a hard fought road win from your team. And that is what he did. I wonder what confidence he instilled in his team with that coaching decision??

@Big-Clyde52 Yes. We had control of this game. As you say...now we will have to scramble. KSU will be playing us at home to move into a tie for first. Will be a tough game for us to win.

@nuleafjhawk In the past, I would agree. I liked Lucas over Diallo (who couldn't be in position on an inbounds play to save his life). Where'd that get us in the tourney? Loserville.

I'm liking this new coach who lets players screw up in real time and lose games. The Big 12 is meaningless. Final fours and championships are the goal.

Big Clyde52 said:

@Bwag Of course Self lost this game. Even worse he may have cost us the streak. Instead of 7-1 and in complete control of the conference, we are now going to have to scramble and claw to win it. I am still in disbelief of the way he blew this game. Complete stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again and failing each time. And I do not give a damn what excuse he uses for doing it. Build confidence? Bull Sht! Send a message? Bull Sht!! There is absolutely no excuse to take away a hard fought road win from your team. And that is what he did. I wonder what confidence he instilled in his team with that coaching decision??

+1000

DanR said:

@nuleafjhawk In the past, I would agree. I liked Lucas over Diallo (who couldn't be in position on an inbounds play to save his life). Where'd that get us in the tourney? Loserville.

I'm liking this new coach who lets players screw up in real time and lose games. The Big 12 is meaningless. Final fours and championships are the goal.

If you are hoping for final fours and titles, you are rooting for the wrong program. Self struggles mightily in March.

@HawkChamp Right. But that's because his OLD strategy of trying to win every game instead of developing the best players during the season.

Yes, Self cost KU this game. If you want to keep Doke in until you're in the bonus, that's fine. Keeping Doke in after that, not fine, especially on a night like tonight when he couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat. Especially considering the defense isn't a big drop off to Lightfoot and Lightfoot is an 82% FT shooter on the year. Even with a much smaller sample size, Lightfoot is the far better end game player on offense for KU because of his much superior FT shooting.

Man O Man, I am usually 98% in favor of Bill Self's coaching strategy and tactics. But his late gamble in leaving Doke in the game, embarrassing his big man and harnessing the other 4 Jayhawks on the floor...gee whiz, what a miscalculation from a HOF coach! If he pulls another bonehead move like this he is bound to lose the full determination of his squad. Heck, I'm an old retired track coach who knows very little about collegiate basketball; but I saw this debacle unfolding as clear as noontime sunshine. At best, the psychology will push Doke to work on his free throws; at worst, Bill placed the league crown in serious jeopardy. How's the guy gonna get 4 nights of decent sleep before the next jump ball on Saturday?

Is it possible Self was trying to light a fire in Udoka to work on these? There is no other explanation...

@DanR Please share with all of us what you are smoking. If you think teams will not continue to do this from here on, you need to take a few days off. It will not matter whether it is in conference play or in the Dance. And Dok will not get much better shooting FT's with his form. So I guess Coach can just let him work thru his issues and we can just continue to lose games. Now there is a great scheme going forward. NOT!!!

Not trying to change Dokes ft mechanics midseason is almost as epic a meltdown as leaving him in the game tonight. Or actually could be a much larger meltdown. I absolutely 100% detest that decision. Maybe the dumbest thing I've heard yet. I mean seriously?? Do you think you're gonna hurt his ft shot so bad that the percentage actually goes down?!?!?! Or say it oh...idk costs us a game?!?! He has ZERO mechanics now!!!! Gotta be FN kidding me. Teach the kid how to shoot a damn ft...

Hey @Big-Clyde52 I doubt we'll see the same scenario again. Was there some reason why Devonte couldn't take it right to the rim while Doke was planted in the corner on those four possessions? ...I think we can exploit the poke-a-doke strategy better than we did tonight.

@DanR This is different. This is free throw shooting. This is not playing through mistakes. Udoka made no mistakes. Udoka is shooting free throws like a deranged 4th grader who needs to be playing the trombone, solely because the KU staff permits it.

Bad News: We all agree how and why we lost this game when it was ours for the taking. Good News: We are 6-2 in Big12, at this stage, and that's probably what most of us thought going into the season. Bad News: In Big12 play, our avg. margin of victory is 4 pts. Our avg. margin on losses, 8 pts.

@HighEliteMajor Play the best players, man. Everyone has some weaknesses

@HighEliteMajor exactly. The comparison is laughable at minimum.

@DanR And just how can we exploit it??? Please tell us. I want to win.

Situation dictates who the best player is at that moment. Put your team in the best possible position to win, regardless of how that makes the player feel. You bring in Wade Davis to close the game, not pitch the first 8.

You play the best FT shooters in crunch time when the opposing team's strategy to get back in it, is fouling Doke.

@DanR In that situation, Udoka is not the best player. Further, the "weakness" is situationally fatal. And we can see that it just cost us a game. Normally, the play best players is right (heck, nearly all the time). But good grief.

@hawkmoon2020 EXACTLY! Please explain that to the people that are trying to smooth this loss over with whipped cream. JEESHH!

@Big-Clyde52 Let him play harder and foul out! Unleash the beast.

How many timeouts did we have? Could he have switched Mitch and Dok on offense and defense?

@DanR Another great scheme!!

DanR said:

Hey @Big-Clyde52 I doubt we'll see the same scenario again. Was there some reason why Devonte couldn't take it right to the rim while Doke was planted in the corner on those four possessions? ...I think we can exploit the poke-a-doke strategy better than we did tonight.

Why wouldn't opposing teams use the Poke-a-Doke strategy in close games late? OU brought a bench warmer in specifically to foul Doke to put him on the line. They fouled Doke as soon as the ball was brought across half court. This wasn't a case of OU waiting for Doke to catch the and foul, they were fouling him when he was out on the perimeter doing nothing but standing there.

If I'm A&M's coach or any other coach and KU has a small lead late, I'm fouling Doke and putting him on the line as much as possible and I'm bringing in a walk on for that specifical purpose.

@Texas-Hawk-10 There you go. The situation has been exposed for the rest of the season. Every coach in the nation has seen it now.

@Texas-Hawk-10 should've been intentional

@HighEliteMajor I have disagreed with the strategy in the past of playing the best players. I thought EJ sucked compared to Brady, and was proven right in the end when he choked against Michigan. But, I'm sold now. Let them learn. Lose some games. Shoulder the responsibility of being the teammate that lost the game because you were lazy in practice and didn't listen to coaching.

Then, improve in practice, and hopefully be ready for March. If not., fire coach Self.

Big Clyde52 said:

@Texas-Hawk-10 There you go. The situation has been exposed for the rest of the season. Every coach in the nation has seen it now.

I think Bill knows this. We were 2 games up, we still have sole possession. Self probably thought, what the heck, we always win close games, hopefully Dok can come through and get some confidence.

What I HOPE Bill knows is that instead of saying afterwards that he (Self) goofed up, he should be saying that Dok needs to learn to make free throws. Otherwise he's going back on his vote of confidence.

@chriz I simply don't get the "vote of confidence" point. Doke not making FTs is NOT for lack of confidence. It is that he has probably the worst FT shooting "technique" of any college or pro player I've ever seen. Definitely worse than Shaq. He can have all the confidence in the world - he ain't making more than 50% of his attempts shooting them the way he does...

Listening to Self in the post game interview, it was probably not Doke's confidence on the line tonight.

Guess you have to see what you've got to work with in crunch time at some point.

The idea that you can't work on changing his shot at this point in season is just foolish. What's he gonna do go 0-7? Big deal. From the sound of it the strategy isnt gonna change moving forward...

So... Same strategy, and same mechanics=??? I guess alot more "This is on me, I screwed up"

So what about Vick, speaking about hurting our game tonight?

@DanR For sure we can exploit it. Doke never comes out and we feed him the ball til we empty their bench. Lon didn't out coach Self, Self stopped coaching.How does this weigh on Doke? If Doke starts launching 3's from half court is Bill going to leave him in? If Doke tries to bring the ball up the court against a press, is that alright?

@DanR Fair enough. Couldn't he have seen that at any point up and until this game. If not, how about the first time they poked Doke? The second time? The third time? What, not even after the fifth time?

Stipulated that we need Doke on the floor as much of the game as possible. But in this game, Mitch had about the same slash line in 5 fewer minutes. More importantly, he is 14-17 from the FT line this year. I get you want to have your best players on the floor. But, in obvious fouling situations, a 40% FT shooter is not one of your best players.

@cragarhawk "The idea that you can’t work on changing his shot at this point in season is just foolish"

I love this statement so much. Because it's true. In a few months, I'll be 60. Haven't played competitive ball in 35 years. Haven't played HORSE with my kids in the driveway for over 10 years. I'll bet anyone on here I can go out RIGHT NOW - at 9:41 at night and by 11:00 I will have improved my free throw percentage by 50%.

It's not that damn hard. You think " OH - I bricked that one, I'll soften the next shot up a little ". " OH - that was was too soft, too flat, I'll put a little more ooomph on it and a little more arc" "OH - I need to get my hand square under the ball and bring my elbow in closer".

Not - OH - I've bricked the last 100 shots I put up, guess I'll keep doin the same damn thing. OH - I must be doing it right because my dumb ass coaches aren't telling me to do anything different and they keep me in here at crunch time so I can lose the game for my team and our fans.

I've said for YEARS that these prima donna college basketball players need to put in MINIMUM 2 hours practice per day on Free Throws. Good free throw shooting teams win championships. They're FREE.

FREE POINTS.

At some point, should the refs call it intentional?

DanR said:

@Texas-Hawk-10 should've been intentional

That's not what the rule is though.

@HighEliteMajor He is clearly not doing the same routine on each shot (Free throw 101), and what I noticed tonight is he is not even looking at the freaking rim when he releases the ball. I constantly worked with my players to improve their form and routine during the season, and guess what? Most of them improved!

Doke's last free throw was at 1:56 and even with the miss KU was up by 1. Point taken about Doke and his free throws but in fairness, a second look at the final 1:56 is also relevant -- a missed 3 by Graham, a missed 3 by Svi, and a missed switch on defense that cost us 3...to name a few.

I see all of the usual Self defenders which is usually me but tonight Self should have pulled Doke. The fans knew it, refs knew it, and the opposing team knew it. Yall are saying keeping him in shows Doke that Self believes in him? Self made him stand in the corner after the time out to keep the other team from fouling him. So you handicap your team when the game is on the line? Might as well develope an inbounds play where you throw it to the other team. Or better yet inbounds lob in the opposing teams basket?

Statmachine said:

Yall are saying keeping him in shows Doke that Self believes in him?

That's what Self said in his post game interview

Subbing offense for defense and vice versa is basic coaching. i did it all the time. It did not hurt the kids confidence. It let them know we were doing all we could to win the damn game!

That's bs. He just stood him in the corner so he wouldn't get fouled. That sends the exact same message.

cragarhawk said:

The idea that you can't work on changing his shot at this point in season is just foolish. What's he gonna do go 0-7? Big deal. From the sound of it the strategy isnt gonna change moving forward...

So... Same strategy, and same mechanics=??? I guess alot more "This is on me, I screwed up"

Sounds like the definition of insanity and the reason we don't win in March. Self is still stubborn about things and that won't change.

DanR said:

Listening to Self in the post game interview, it was probably not Doke's confidence on the line tonight.

Guess you have to see what you've got to work with in crunch time at some point.

Thanks captain obvious. Because none of us were aware that Dok is a horrible shooter (sarcasm).

Next game I vote for inbounds lob on opposing teams basket! It would be far more entertaining.

1. Self knew the risk of leaving Doke in

2. We still had the lead, despite the 6 blown freebies

3. ?

4. Victory/Loss

lessons learned... Self BLEW IT.

Who would agree that Doke should have been called for a foul when he plowed into Young right before TY hit that 25 footer? They seemed to be calling every other touch foul.

Sad part about it is the rest of the team could shoot from half court blindfolded at a higher percentage than Dokes ft shots tonight.

@Blown even the announcer said so. The fans boooo'ed the refs until the 3 pointer.

Young's really good at making everything looking like he's fouled

@Crimsonorblue22 He got nailed on the push off tonight though, which was satisfying considering how often he does it.

@HighEliteMajor This is what I have been spewing on twitter! What kind of coach(s) allows a kid to ever shoot a free throw like that? Thats the question I want Self to answer. They have had two years almost and this is the form they came up with? If aint broke dont fix it, well it is broke so fix it!

All right. I'm done for the night. Hyperbole aside, I want Doke to be a guy that can be in the game at crunch time down the road.

Pretty sure Bill Self knows he could have won this one. Hopefully the team is better in the long run. Maybe there was some rope-a-doke going on for future games (what a set up that would be!), or he just gave the kid a chance.

@DanR

And even after they showed it on the scoreboard screen the fans kept booing; pretty ignorant fans.

@chriz I wondered this too, this is how the NBA handles it most times, they get more TO's but if I remember correctly Self didnt use a lot of TO's

Interesting. Channel 5 in KC referred to the poke-a-Doke. Remember, you heard it here first. :smile:

Hows that for confidence?

I wish Doke had fouled out with 3 minutes left.

This years "how to beat KU" play book. Put your walk on's in and foul Doke every time KU takes a lead. Rinse and repeat. Out of all of KU's possessions if you took 10-15 away by fouling Doke away from the ball then you could shave 20-30 pts off of their production. Seems legit.

@truehawk93 not a bad game. Threw it with a failure to adapt. I don't see any way that Doke will grow from this. It's possible but probably not this year.

@kjayhawks in last 2 min we weren't even throwing it in to him. They were fouling him when he wasn't really even in the play.

Blown said:

Who would agree that Doke should have been called for a foul when he plowed into Young right before TY hit that 25 footer? They seemed to be calling every other touch foul.

Are you thinking conspiracy?

@DanR Doke gained no confidence from this. At best, his confidence is not 100% destroyed.

@CRH107 that take does not take into account the pressure that was built by a failure to adjust.

@Crimsonorblue22 now that's a mystery. Not adapting to end game strategy is stupidity.

@Big-Clyde52 hopefully our coaching staff would adjust in the future. If not, an Asst Coach needs to put his job on the line slapping sense into Self on the sideline.

@Bwag a strategy the refs were keen on too. I mean how much more clear was it that the refs threw the game?

@hawkmoon2020 I had this in the loss column like the WV game. But who'd figure we'd give it due to coaching when victory was achievable at 2 min mark with an adaption to other teams coaching strategy?

@chriz no. just thinking how the smallest things in games (and life) can prove to be more meaningful down the road than they appeared at the present time. Might have prevented that big 3 and had another foul on Doke and he could have fouled out of the game before being poked 5 times.

The Hawks lose championship this year by one game, this game will be very bitter to look back upon giving the circumstances and coaches decision.

I am still amazed about the foul discrepancies. Maybe I should “go ask Fran about it.”

This was adapting to the refs and how they were calling it. Which is called having the refs in your pocket. Which is cheating.

@chriz I don't see that master plan materializing.

A lot of great coaches on this site!

nuleafjhawk said:

@DanR You play through your issues in practice. You try to win the F-ing games.

We could afford to lose this one. And I think this was engineered. But who cares. Vick, Doke, everyone. We need to get better when we’re tired in the second half.

We had pretty good defense.
I wonder if Garrett is more important in the lineup than Vick at this point. Better defense and better handle.

Partially. He was a contributing factor but I don't put it all on Bill Self. Self should have switched Doke and Lightfoot after the first time Kruger decidedt o intentionally foul. But, Azubuike is the one who missed the free throws, he also bears some of the blame.

Additionally DG shot 4/19 from the field and missed a lot of shots that he is capable of making. If he makes 2 or 3 more of his FGA and shoots like 6/19 or 7/19 (still bad), then it puts KU in a much better position to close out the game.

Overall just a disappointing loss and a game that KU should have had.

Trae Young was great, though.

Lon Kruger is a good coach.

Water is wet, etc.

Never in a million years did I think I'd be yelling "Put in Mitch!"

Who would have thought Self would blow a conference game. The Big-12 is his sacred ground.

I've never seen a coaching mistake that blatant from him in all the years. If there are others that top this I'm drawing a blank at the moment.

Its put up or shut up time for both the staff and Doke. Both are forced to deal with the issue now. Both have to game-plan a way to improve. They helped Josh Jackson last season with his preparation and mentality. They must do the same with Doke now. It's hard to believe we all witnessed this last night

Vick and DG shooting 1-13 on threes might have had something to do with the loss too.

wissox said:

Vick and DG shooting 1-13 on threes might have had something to do with the loss too.

Graham was 4-19 from the field. He took 9 shots last night without making a single pass. Certainly didn't help

@KirkIsMyHinrich I would suggest that Doke bears NONE of the blame. It is this coaching staff that has permitted him to shoot free throws like this. That is permitting a player to be in a clear and distinct position to fail. What would one think if that staff permitted Doke to shoot hook shots on his free throw attempts? I personally think this is worse. A hook shot at least is acceptable in form. This abomination is not. If the staff puts a player in a position to succeed, that's really all you can ask. This is the opposite. Self took responsibility for the result, but of course the supposed "reporters" don't ever ask any tough or direct questions related to the clear and obvious "form" issues -- the "why" is this happening inquiry.

JayHawkFanToo said:

@DanR

And even after they showed it on the scoreboard screen the fans kept booing; pretty ignorant fans.

Haha, I was hoping Dok would flatten Young. It would’ve been doubly good for KU. No Young or Dok down the stretch.

@HighEliteMajor And this will continue to be a real problem going forward. In close games, other coaches will surely use this tactic. Which, if Doke does not get better (as you say, how can he with that form?) will cause Self to have to take him out at the 5 min. mark or so depending on where we are on team fouls. Then, of course, teams will attack Mitch inside.

Self should have gone back to Mitch. When we talk about confidence, we have to look at two things.

First, does this help or hurt Doke's confidence when he's struggling? I say no, but that's debatable because Doke at least knows that Self will stick with him.

Second, does this help or hurt Mitch's confidence? Mitch is sitting there seeing what OU's strategy is. He sees Doke missing FTs and the lead dwindling. And yet Self doesn't look his way to stem the tide. Does Self have that little confidence in Lightfoot to at least make OU play ball instead of a foul-a-thon? And Mitch was playing some solid ball, too. Yet Self still wouldn't go to him down the stretch in a critical game.

There's two elements of confidence here. Even if Doke's confidence wasn't shaken, do we know what kind of message that sent to Lightfoot?

Fortunately for us, no other teams will scout this game to realize we are handing over a great tool for them to win. ha

What we can't do is go negative on Doke. Hey... as I've been saying... he has improved more than any other big man we have ever had in such a short time. IMHO, more so than JoJo because JoJo brought more tools with him to Lawrence.

Believe me.... one or two more losses from "poke a Doke" and we'll see changes... if not immediately after this loss.

I'm thinking Doke is already asking Self to find a way to help him with his FTs. Our staff can't just let him go off on himself and do this. He needs help from others.

BeddieKU23 said:

wissox said:

Vick and DG shooting 1-13 on threes might have had something to do with the loss too.

Graham was 4-19 from the field. He took 9 shots last night without making a single pass. Certainly didn't help

And yet we were still in a position to win the game. Dominated them the entire second half and whenever Dok was in (outside the last tv timeout).

HighEliteMajor said:

@KirkIsMyHinrich I would suggest that Doke bears NONE of the blame. It is this coaching staff that has permitted him to shoot free throws like this. That is permitting a player to be in a clear and distinct position to fail. What would one think if that staff permitted Doke to shoot hook shots on his free throw attempts? I personally think this is worse. A hook shot at least is acceptable in form. This abomination is not. If the staff puts a player in a position to succeed, that's really all you can ask. This is the opposite. Self took responsibility for the result, but of course the supposed "reporters" don't ever ask any tough or direct questions related to the clear and obvious "form" issues -- the "why" is this happening inquiry.

I wonder if any of Self's assistants wondered "what the blank is Self thinking?" I rarely question the quality of Roberts and Townsend and they seem like quality coaches who genuinely care, but sometimes I wonder if Self needs a coach who is not afraid to be fully honest with him in these situations. Sure, it'd be risky at times, but that move was not about confidence and, frankly, was wrong and unfair of Self to do to his own player. I imagine Dok feels he lost the game for them which is not true. The coach is supposed to know limitations and maneuver around them when its crunch time - maximize strengths and minimize weaknesses. Unless there is info we don't know and arent privy to, last nights late game maneuver is possibly the worst D1 coaching decision I've ever seen.

Folks, please tell me why this would not have worked:

• Walkon fouls Doke
• Self puts Mitch in against the walkon : MUA
• Every time Kruger sends the real player to the scorer's table, Self sends Doke.
• Every time Kruger sends the walkon to the scorer's table, Self sends Mitch.

Kruger then has to decide: do I poke Doke with a real player or do I stop fouling?

This seems so simple. Instead of playing "your best player" you play the biggest MUA. (By the way @jaybate-1-0 , is MUA the right term? and what does it mean already?)

Comments please...

@ParisHawk that would have been the logical decision yes.

HawkChamp said:

BeddieKU23 said:

wissox said:

Vick and DG shooting 1-13 on threes might have had something to do with the loss too.

Graham was 4-19 from the field. He took 9 shots last night without making a single pass. Certainly didn't help

And yet we were still in a position to win the game. Dominated them the entire second half and whenever Dok was in (outside the last tv timeout).

Yes we were in a position to win, we controlled the first 18 minutes of the 2nd half. However when you shoot that poorly and take a bunch of "me, me, me" shots, the FT's and our coaches decision (lack their of) were not the only contributing factors to the outcome of the game.

When Graham shoots poorly this team is always going to be in a position to lose.

@Jayballer54 How does missing free throws over and over help your confidence??

Before the game yesterday, I posted the concern below related to games even when the other team has the lead. I bet Scott Drew is kicking himself -

@drgnslayr If I’m an opposing coach, and I see how well Kansas finishes games – even if I’m up 4 with say three minutes to play – perhaps I just foul Udoka on every KU possession. That is better odds than seeing if DG, Svi and company are going to beat me. Because they most likely will. Foul the opposition on purpose with the lead. Is that a crazy strategy? If Baylor had done that starting at the 2:30 mark, you think they win?

Barney said:

@Jayballer54 How does missing free throws over and over help your confidence??

Good question. - - -you tell me. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@CRH107 GREAT POINTS. Doke / Self lost us the game.

@betterfireE If this was truly engineered, and i were the AD, the Chief Engineer would be looking for a new job today - don't give a F if he's in the Hall of Fame or if he had won 10 NC's (which he won't).

His only job is to win basketball games. He gets paid more money in one year that most of us will make (combined) in our lifetimes. If he is engineering losses to supposedly make things better in the long run ( which he never does - one NC, thanks to a hail mary prayer by Chalmers to get us to OT - not good coaching ) then we need somebody else on the bench that wants to win every game.

I'm not calling for his head, but I'm tired of stupid ass coaching like this and like i see in late March that cost us wins.

http://discovermagazine.com/2008/the-body/07-physics-proves-it-everyone-should-shoot-granny-style ↗

Maybe if the name were changed to "Studly Style" shooting this way wouldn't be so taboo.

New challenge to the board rats: New name for the Studly Style Free throw....Most creative wins membership to the Jelly of the Month Club.

BeddieKU23 said:

HawkChamp said:

BeddieKU23 said:

wissox said:

Vick and DG shooting 1-13 on threes might have had something to do with the loss too.

Graham was 4-19 from the field. He took 9 shots last night without making a single pass. Certainly didn't help

And yet we were still in a position to win the game. Dominated them the entire second half and whenever Dok was in (outside the last tv timeout).

Yes we were in a position to win, we controlled the first 18 minutes of the 2nd half. However when you shoot that poorly and take a bunch of "me, me, me" shots, the FT's and our coaches decision (lack their of) were not the only contributing factors to the outcome of the game.

When Graham shoots poorly this team is always going to be in a position to lose.

Even in spite of a bad shooting night from Devonte, we still could have won the game. Not everyone is going to be on their A+ game every night shooting wise, but the team as a whole did enough to win until Self decided to allow Dok to be in a free throw contest. He's paid millions to make the correct decisions, especially about obvious stuff.

@ParisHawk

Yes.

MUA = match up advantage

@wissox No great coaches. Just common sense, logic, and strategy.

By no means am I advocating going completely away from Doke. He is still our best option. But if a team commits to that strategy, we have to adjust. We can't just sit on our hands and hope things turn out okay, because that usually leads to things not turning out okay.

Doke was playing pretty well last night in limited minutes, but that is all overshadowed by the final stretch. You think he went to bed thinking about the dunks he had, or with images of those missed FTs? We have to put him in a position to succeed. If a team commits to that strategy, Doke has to be running the baseline, trying to catch lobs or something. Just standing in the corner eliminates him and clogs the paint because you don't even have to follow him out there.

HawkChamp said:

BeddieKU23 said:

HawkChamp said:

BeddieKU23 said:

wissox said:

Vick and DG shooting 1-13 on threes might have had something to do with the loss too.

Graham was 4-19 from the field. He took 9 shots last night without making a single pass. Certainly didn't help

And yet we were still in a position to win the game. Dominated them the entire second half and whenever Dok was in (outside the last tv timeout).

Yes we were in a position to win, we controlled the first 18 minutes of the 2nd half. However when you shoot that poorly and take a bunch of "me, me, me" shots, the FT's and our coaches decision (lack their of) were not the only contributing factors to the outcome of the game.

When Graham shoots poorly this team is always going to be in a position to lose.

Even in spite of a bad shooting night from Devonte, we still could have won the game. Not everyone is going to be on their A+ game every night shooting wise, but the team as a whole did enough to win until Self decided to allow Dok to be in a free throw contest. He's paid millions to make the correct decisions, especially about obvious stuff.

We could/should have won the game despite his bad night I agree with. We won Saturday against Baylor despite another poor shooting night from Graham. In both games Svi & Newman stepped up and we got enough contributions from others. We've had maybe a few games all season where the starting 5 played their A+ games. Vick continuing his down-spiral hasn't helped either. But with Vick doing whatever it is he's doing Newman has stepped up. So we keep missing the teams ceiling because we haven't seen everyone clicking together. It's why we are in so many close games because every game its 1-2 starters having an average or below average night.

I'm certainly not trying to transfer the blame because our coach deserves almost all of it. Just pointing out that I thought Devonte's poor shooting night was the other big reason the result went the other way.

@nuleafjhawk Yeah it reminds me of the Michigan game in the Dance some years back. We are up by 3 with 6 or 7 seconds left. Michigan was throwing everything in the basket from everywhere. Yet, when their guard brought the ball across mid court, instead of fouling him, we let him shoot a 27 footer that ties the game. We lose in overtime. Another situation where the coach has got to have discussed with the team before hand. You put them on the line and take your chances. You damn sure do not allow them to shoot for a tie!!!

The Trea Young saga might get worse. Rumor going around that an article is coming out here in the next week about Self asking Trea and his family, "If they don't pick KU to please pick OU".

MUA = match up advantage

I get the strategy and nothing against Kruger, but maybe the whole intentional fouling should be reviewed. Maybe, if the same player is "intentpionally" fouled 3 times or more, on 3 consecutive offensive trips, like Doke, maybe a technical foul should incur. Here's my concern...what if this player is in the act of shooting, off balance, or simply gets frustrated. I think to control the game more than controlling the fouls should be a concern. The whole premeditated fouling of a player is going to end really badly for a player. Simply because a coach is telling his kids to "intentionally foul," ie. Lon Kruger. Get ready, they come to Lawrence. I say we rough Trae Young up on every shot he takes, and HARD too. I don't want to hurt him, just make him think before he puts up a deep trey.

@Texas-Hawk-10 I would be the first to admit I don't know all the rules, so I have a question. My husband says that , instead of putting Doke in a corner on those last couple of plays, what if Coach Self had put him in the backcourt? If an opposing player had to go all the way into the backcourt to commit the foul on DOKE, the foul would have to be called intentional, and we would be awarded two shots AND THE BALL. Moreover, any player who committed two intentional fouls would be ejected from the game. Could this possibly be true? Could Self possibly have missed something this simple? If you know, I would appreciate a reply.

Trae makes his free throws. Better foul real hard for that strategy to work.

I think you are all worrying too much. The next time a coach starts the poke-a-Doke, you will see a completely different strategy from Coach Self. Let them plan the full poke-a-Doke and be surprised. :smile:

@ParisHawk

Self is human.

I suspect he was never in the situation before How many coaches since Wilt retired have been? Not many. I watched Wilt many NBA seasons and never saw a coach pull a surprise move like that.

Lots of coaches foul bad FT shooters repeatedly with starters and subs (e.g., Self used massive fouling with the C5 a few years back), but Lonnie was more clever. He waited till late in the game and stuck a nobody in to do it. Self gambled staying big to get a rebound to keep possession, or get a FT from Doke. He figured Doke at 1 of 6 would likely make one, because he averages 43%. He thought the probability was Doke was due to make one. It was either a rational bet or he just got surprised.

It’s not a crime to get surprised and fail to counter in the moment. No coach ALWAYS makes the right move. Surprise has happened many times to all coaches and generals. You try to learn as quickly as possible and adapt or stand pat as the best guess response based on circumstances and what is known and correctly analysed. But sometimes the possibility occurs instead of the possibility.

Self has accrued several such events and unsuccessful responses, despite a ton of successful responses, also.

1. Self was flummoxed by Hoiberg’s 4-1 the first time he saw it. He stayed double post too long.

2. Shaka’s spread offense with long cuts fooled him into guarding the long cuts and exhausting his team, after a game of guarding Princeton cuts.

3. Ben Howland’s hack’n slap fooled him. He didn’t start riding the refs soon enough to get it stopped.

4. He didn’t anticipate Mike Anderson’s press the first time either. Guys were not slicing into seams.

5. People forget that Huggins’ weird East Ohio High school offense at KSU and Beasley gave Self fits.

6. Izzo’s doubling Sherron top of key took away his drive and Self never found a good counter that game.

And so on.

But my god! KU only lost by five on an opponents floor on an incredibly bad shooting night by two of its offensive cornerstones: Devonte and La Cobra!

Plus Doke had a ridulously bad FT night even for him at 1-8. Normally he makes 4.3 of 10, which is 3.2 of 8. On a normal night, even with Kruger’s cutesy move on Doke late, and Self standing pat, KU would have gotten 2 more points out of Doke; that would have made it 85-82.

With normal nights from Devonte and LaCobra KU would have likely scored another 10- 15 points! That would have made it either 92-85, or 97-85.

Self and KU can beat OU next time in AFH without Doke getting better at FTs! KU will win if it just shoots to its average. It will blow OU out on a hot night.

All Self really needed was a split last weekend. And he got it. In Norman, he was just trying to steal a road win. He almost had it, but a smart coach threw him a curveball and he couldn’t get his bat on it. But if Kruger throws it again, he will have something ready.

It’s how he is.

It’s what he does.

It’s all he does.

And he absolutely will not stop till he beats you.

He is The Coachinator!

Buffer 1

@jaybate-1.0 I accept all you say, however my objective was not so much to blame Self for the past but to make a suggestion for the future.

Blatant late-game fouling by a fouling specialist who can't do anything else can be countered. Self only has to counter it once, then coaches will stop doing it because it is a "dick move" unless it works.

Countering blatant late-game fouling will take psychological pressure off Doke too.

Oh I just thought of a funnier solution.

Doke's assignment on offense is to keep as far away from the walk-on as possible, period.

Imagine the guy chasing Doke all over the court trying desperately to foul him while the teams are playing 4 on 4. The burden would be on Kruger to stop the circus, and in case of a foul Self could easily argue it was intentional. (I assume off the ball fouls can be intentional?)

Even the East Coast media would have to talk about that game...

P.S. My ideas are only to counter fouling specialists and make the other team beat us using its normal players.

“From a technique standpoint, we’re not going to change his shot in February,” Self said.

OK, great Coach

@ParisHawk

I think your suggestion is super!

It didn’t occur to me even afterwards until I read your post.

I hope he uses it, if he and staff do not think of something else better.

I was writing to clarify both that Self may have had a reason to try it his way and also make the case that even great coaches miss things!

Thanks for posting your sharp counter move suggestion. It would likely work, even if Self finds a different solution.

Many ways of cat skinning!

Other coaches will steal from Kruger.

We need a work around.

BeddieKU23 said:

“From a technique standpoint, we’re not going to change his shot in February,” Self said.

OK, great Coach

Well Coach it's still January and that's not a shot, that's a prayer!

@Gunman

A prayer! Well, that explains closing the eyes.