🏀 KuBuckets Archive

https://es.pn/2Mff4dF ↗

@Crimsonorblue22 And the lawyers are, ofcourse, right. For violating an NCAA rule you get sent to prison?

I hope they win the appeal. It has always seemed to be a ridiculous claim to file federal charges. But the trial judge didn't dismiss it and they were convicted. The conviction seems really unjust to me given the total circumstances.

🚨🚨🚨 I’ll believe it when I see but still would love to see the dookies squirm 🐦 View Tweet?s=21

https://sports.yahoo.com/new-avenatti-motion-alleges-nikes-apparent-willingness-to-pay-zion-williamson-romeo-langford-012143278.html ↗

99% chance the kid from Michigan is Emoni Bates.

Lol

So,,,,, the can of tuna might finally be opened all the way, huh?

FarmerJayhawk said:

99% chance the kid from Michigan is Emoni Bates.

Bates will NEVER step foot on any campus so it would only affect his high school eligibility.

BigBad said:

FarmerJayhawk said:

99% chance the kid from Michigan is Emoni Bates.

Bates will NEVER step foot on any campus so it would only affect his high school eligibility.

Exactly.

@BigBad Jesus Christ, what kind of monster is he?

@FarmerJayhawk Jesus Christ, what kind of monster is he?

@Marco Well as a Freshman he led his High School team to the big division state championship last year. He is a Durant type.

Marco said:

@FarmerJayhawk Jesus Christ, what kind of monster is he?

Not going to hype him up too much but he may be the best HS prospect since Durant.

@BeddieKU23

I feel like Zion was just too big a prize to come along and not have corruption surround him. He was a "must have" target. Could possibly end up being a "game changer" in the ShoeCo war like Jordan was. That is yet to be seen. But this big business couldn't just let him go his own way without their influence. Simply not possible.

If connections to Zion were not interested in taking money secretly you can bet ShoeCo agents were driving by these people and throwing cash money darts out the window at them. Anything necessary to swing Zion their way.

Since the money dart concept probably didn't happen, I'm pretty sure the connections "played ball" to an underground money exchange.

I'm not easily convinced it could ever be proven that Duke directly or indirectly became involved in any of this. But what bothers me is that when any evidence is sniffed out even remotely connected to Duke, those fires quickly get suffocated with wet towels. The sheer magnitude of the protective wall around Duke is part of the corruption here!

FarmerJayhawk said:

Marco said:

@FarmerJayhawk Jesus Christ, what kind of monster is he?

Not going to hype him up too much but he may be the best HS prospect since Durant.

No small praise there, Farmer.

Marco said:

So,,,,, the can of tuna might finally be opened all the way, huh?

Negative

drgnslayr said:

@BeddieKU23

I feel like Zion was just too big a prize to come along and not have corruption surround him. He was a "must have" target. Could possibly end up being a "game changer" in the ShoeCo war like Jordan was. That is yet to be seen. But this big business couldn't just let him go his own way without their influence. Simply not possible.

If connections to Zion were not interested in taking money secretly you can bet ShoeCo agents were driving by these people and throwing cash money darts out the window at them. Anything necessary to swing Zion their way.

Since the money dart concept probably didn't happen, I'm pretty sure the connections "played ball" to a underground money exchange.

I'm not easily convinced it could ever be proven that Duke directly or indirectly became involved in any of this. But what bothers me is that when any evidence is sniffed out even remotely connected to Duke, those fires quickly get suffocated with wet towels. The sheer magnitude of the protective wall around Duke is part of the corruption here!

They had a story recently about all the drama and controversy with Zion signing with Jordan Brand. It's a cut throat world out there with people trying to exploit/gain off others fame. His step dad started this whole fiasco years ago taking control of Zion's recruitment and the waters have gotten deeper behind the scenes every year since.

It certainly appears that way with Duke having privilege. How much will that continue with K hangs them up.

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/27403106/filings-suggest-nike-paid-pursuit-players ↗

dylans said:

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/27403106/filings-suggest-nike-paid-pursuit-players ↗

!alt text ↗

Gheez.... I'm not the one to defend Nike... the corporation I feel is one of the filthiest, criminal cartels in existence... but to count on evidence from Michael Avenatti?

I'm hopeful, like others, that Avenatti may just be the guy that opens the door to other allegations and targets.

@drgnslayr Agreed. The guy is as rotten as they come, but it is now all but guaranteed that the charade is over. There is no way, unless they want to appear to be totally paid off - and they very well may be - that the NCAA will not now look into Nike and their schools.

Saw the Sportscenter bottom line the other day. "But no evidence of improprieties regarding Zion Williamson or his family in regard to Duke University," said the NCAA as soon as the story broke. Lol!

@Marco Have you noticed the NCAA hasn't said a peep about us??? I am starting to think Bshark is right- a big nothing burger.

KUSTEVE said:

@Marco Have you noticed the NCAA hasn't said a peep about us??? I am starting to think Bshark is right- a big nothing burger.

And don't forget Coach Marco @KUSTEVE, I've been saying the same for awhile now myself. Why have I been saying it? Because that is what the NCAA has on us when you really break it down, a big nothing burger - a whole lot of conjecture, speculation, he said this or that, or "hey, listen to this very vague recording! They never did pay him anything though, because Duke went all in and paid him more!" The NCAA is in way over its head, and why? Because someone else's pockets have been lined instead of just their own?

What's really crazy about the whole situation is that they act as if it's a new thing that hasn't been going on until recently, totally catching them unawares. How much did Wilt cost? How much influence does Nike have over Duke and their suddenly having the #1 bball recruiting class every year? Poor Kentucky, have to settle for #2 every year. How much money is pouring into South Carolina at Clemson, now that they are starting to become college football's Duke and Alabama becoming poor Kentucky?

KUSTEVE said:

@Marco Have you noticed the NCAA hasn't said a peep about us??? I am starting to think Bshark is right- a big nothing burger.

To be fair, NOA's aren't public. KU and the NCAA don't have to acknowledge one, even if one exists. That being said, I haven't heard a peep from the AD that they've received one or anticipate receiving one.

FarmerJayhawk said:

KUSTEVE said:

@Marco Have you noticed the NCAA hasn't said a peep about us??? I am starting to think Bshark is right- a big nothing burger.

To be fair, NOA's aren't public. KU and the NCAA don't have to acknowledge one, even if one exists. That being said, I haven't heard a peep from the AD that they've received one or anticipate receiving one.

Good info, thank you.

Shockingly Duke’s investigation into itself uncovered nothing. Lol. Let’s look under this couch for Zion’s payment. Nope not here. How about under this rug? Nope not here. It must be on the up and up. https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/27555183/duke-probe-finds-no-evidence-nike-paid-zion ↗

@dylans did anyone happen to look in his blown out shoe? lmao - - - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@dylans Did you see Avenatti's comment? "Who conducted the investigation...Inspector Clouseau?" Not an upstanding citizen, but the comment is still funny.

Soo since good ol atta boy Duke did their own investigation and could find NOTHING - -roflmao - -that means well if they FOUND NOTHING - then by all means the NCAA shouldn't do their own investigation - -if bone nose and the boys say -- NOPE STILL SQUEAKY CLEAN - -then by all means - -someone making this all up? - -Riiiiiiiiiiggggggggghhhhhhhhhtttttttt - -lmao

This is crazy. I assume Sean Miller was just sitting in the corner with ear plugs and his hands over his eyes during this entire escapade. SURE

https://sports.yahoo.com/former-arizona-assistant-coach-allegedly-paid-40-k-to-high-school-coach-to-ensure-players-academic-eligibility-172419789.html ↗

It is amazing that nobody really even mentioned or talked about this. That is the only article I saw on it.

@Marco You wouldn't think so unless the NCAA has superseded Congress and its law making role.

In reality, there are several federal laws that have broad jurisdiction/blanket laws that can be used for investgations.

jhawk7782 said:

@Marco You wouldn't think so unless the NCAA has superseded Congress and its law making role.

In reality, there are several federal laws that have broad jurisdiction/blanket laws that can be used for investgations.

You got it, and a legal arguement could be made and won by KU if the NCAA oversteps in this case - which is why I think they are dragging their feet. "Come on guys, think! There's got to be something we can get them on!"

There are certain parts of the body from where we should not speak.

HighEliteMajor said:

There are certain parts of the body from where we should not speak.

The weenus being first among them.

@FarmerJayhawk dang! I'm having a hard time letting this go.🤣 but I'm going to.

Crimsonorblue22 said:

@FarmerJayhawk dang! I'm having a hard time letting this go.🤣 but I'm going to.

Let go of your weenus. Might lose feeling in your elbow.

FarmerJayhawk said:

Crimsonorblue22 said:

@FarmerJayhawk dang! I'm having a hard time letting this go.🤣 but I'm going to.

Let go of your weenus. Might lose feeling in your elbow.

Me and my girlfriend just take turns holding my weenus, that way there is always atleast one hand free to type. And my weenus just said - and as far as weenuses go it is always right - that we are going to receive what amounts to diddly-squat from the NCAA, if anything.

Well if they do penalize us I’m sure there is “a legal arguement could be made and won by KU if the NCAA oversteps in this case.”

Just like that. A legal argument. Out of thin air. I’m sure that can happen. I mean, you know, if the NCAA “oversteps.”

@HighEliteMajor In a courtroom where overstepping is the cause of action or raised as a defense, they use expert witnesses: they bring in a referee who blows a whistle and makes the "travelling" signal.

@HighEliteMajor the NCAA is all but impotent in this case. Which is why they have taken no action. They can't take down only Adidas schools while at the same time knowing Nike to be the biggest culprit. They do not have a shred of proof.

The NCAA only has jurisdiction over schools, not the ShoeCos. Every school needs ShoeCo money. If the NCAA comes down hard on one ShoeCo, they will probably get sued unless they come down on all of the ShoeCos. If they crack down on every ShoeCo, the ShoeCos may stop spending money on these college contracts. Those contracts make athletic departments solvent, so that's a non starter.

The only remaining option is to do nothing.

When a college jersey is sold with a player's name on it... how is that money divided? Does anyone know? What percentage goes to the school, the NCAA, the conference, cousin Vinny in the parking lot?

I agree with @justanotherfan and schools really need all those ShoeCo equipment deals and cash. But why do they need so much $$$? Yes... there are crazy costs in operating college sports, but there is crazy $$$ in all of this for the school. Let's not forget TV revenues.

I'd love to see the bottom line. What our AD brings in and what it spends. We are a State funded university. Isn't that knowledge public?

"I never heard from anyone associated with Duke in connection with my allegations or any investigation," Avenatti said. "I was never asked a single question. I was never asked what information or documents that I was aware of. Who the hell conducted this investigation? Inspector Clouseau?"

"The documents and the hard evidence do not lie. Zion Williamson was paid to attend Duke. [Coach Mike Krzyzewski] has made and facilitated payments to players for years. And when the truth comes out -- and eventually it will -- Coach K and Duke's reputation will forever and rightfully be tarnished."

"And if what I'm saying is untrue, I challenge Coach K and Duke University to file a defamation lawsuit against me tomorrow and we can let the chips fall where they may."

I'm glad no one has ever come out this hard punching us in the face. I doubt Avenatti ever steps foot on that campus without a bodyguard.

@drgnslayr

Here's the 2018 Report ↗ for KU. I think every school has to submit this report.

Highlights include that KU made $20.6M in ticket sales and about $26.2M from contributions (donations). Media rights was worth another $28M+ (Footbal accounts for about three quarters of that total).

KU got $10.8M from Royalties, Licensing, Advertisements and Sponsorships. That's where the ShoeCo money is. That category is worth about 10% of the total athletic revenue.

Also worth noting that even though the basketball team is top notch and the football team is... not, KU football was worth almost twice what KU basketball was in terms of revenue.

drgnslayr said:

When a college jersey is sold with a player's name on it... how is that money divided? Does anyone know? What percentage goes to the school, the NCAA, the conference, cousin Vinny in the parking lot?

I agree with @justanotherfan and schools really need all those ShoeCo equipment deals and cash. But why do they need so much $$$? Yes... there are crazy costs in operating college sports, but there is crazy $$$ in all of this for the school. Let's not forget TV revenues.

I'd love to see the bottom line. What our AD brings in and what it spends. We are a State funded university. Isn't that knowledge public?

Technically they can't see jerseys with a player's name on it. They get around it by making each jersey customizable where the customer can pick the name and number.

@FarmerJayhawk The NCAA cannot sell a jersey with player's name while that player is an active NCAA athlete. Once that player is no longer eligible through turning pro, or exhausting eligibility, jersey's with a player's name on it are able to be sold through licensed retailers. I have a Paul Pierce KU throwback Nike made a few years ago that I bought from Lids and a shirt with Kirk Hinrich's name and number that KU sold when they retired his jersey in 2010.

I don't know percentages, but everyone would get some piece of the pie from the player, school, apparel manufacturer, the retailer, to the NCAA due to the licensing agreements in place.

I know the retailer is the one getting the biggest slice of that pie though with everyone else getting a small percentage.

As far as players themselves, they're allowed to keep their game worn stuff if they choose to. The watch party I was at on Friday night had a special celebration to hang up a Tyler Patrick game worn jersey in that bar that he donated himself. He could've chosen to sell if he wanted to and kept the money for himself, auction it off and keep the money himself minus the auction fee, or could've donated it and written off the cost of the jersey (probably $200 or so).

This is an area I'd like to see the NCAA change in. Allow players to sell their game worn memorabilia if they choose to. Make a list of approved ways to sell items and let kids make some money that way. I'd imagine there would have been a fairly big market for that blown out shoe of Zion's if he'd had been allowed to sell or auction it.

I don't disagree with @HighEliteMajor in theory on this issue because the NCAA does claim to be about amateurism and one of the key aspects of that is not getting paid for your skills and when players agree to their Grant in Aid for their athletic scholarship, they are agreeing to abide by NCAA rules.

The underlying issue that's leading to stuff like the ShoeCo investigations, Ed O'Bannon case and the California law is that the NCAA is either unwilling or unable to fully enforce their own rules. I'm fairly certain it's the latter and that the NCAA is unable to fully enforce their own.

To me, the NCAA has to make a decision in the near future about either enforcing their rules or adapting their rules so they can be enforced or they risk shutting down in the not to distant future.

If the NCAA continues to not make significant changes, that bill that California is working on will get passed in some form in every other state and the NCAA will have a losing battle on their hands to remain in existence.

The NCAA absolutely has to figure out how they can adapt and evolve if they don't want universities and conferences creating a new governing body for collegiate athletics in the next 20 years or so.

justanotherfan said:

The NCAA only has jurisdiction over schools, not the ShoeCos. Every school needs ShoeCo money. If the NCAA comes down hard on one ShoeCo, they will probably get sued unless they come down on all of the ShoeCos. If they crack down on every ShoeCo, the ShoeCos may stop spending money on these college contracts. Those contracts make athletic departments solvent, so that's a non starter.

The only remaining option is to do nothing.

Yahtzee! And that is the non-smoking gun, since the whistle blowers have never really even blown the whistle at all. And if they did, what would they say? "We gave them money, and KU knew (.... or had to know) about it." I smell, if the NCAA tries to 🔨 us, a Supreme Court case which will strip the hooker that is the NCAA of all her remaining dignity. I (Darwinism here, people) think that NCAA had better, for its own survival, quietly let this matter go.

So, by this logic, because others steal from the local 7-11, we can't prosecute the one that gets caught because everyone else is doing it.

And no, it's not coming down hard on one Shoeco. All it would be is imposing sanctions on a university that got caught with a recruiting partner that paid players. There is zero need to come down "hard" on a ShoeCo. The DOJ already did that.

The NCAA can punish KU. Easily. Whether they do or not is another question.

But it's good to know that we have "Supreme Court case" we can fall back on ...

HighEliteMajor said:

So, by this logic, because others steal from the local 7-11, we can't prosecute the one that gets caught because everyone else is doing it.

And no, it's not coming down hard on one Shoeco. All it would be is imposing sanctions on a university that got caught with a recruiting partner that paid players. There is zero need to come down "hard" on a ShoeCo. The DOJ already did that.

The NCAA can punish KU. Easily. Whether they do or not is another question.

But it's good to know that we have "Supreme Court case" we can fall back on ...

Fine @HighEliteMajor,,,, but where is the proof? Innuendo and heresay come cheap, very cheap. The only way for there to not be corruption is if and when the NCAA goes into the apparel making business and starts sponsoring AAU, and it might as well since it is already cashing in in every other way.

I'm trying to be respectful here. But you don't understand what qualifies as proof. You seem to think there has to be a video, or a document that "convicts."

So the perspective is considered, folks go to jail based on eyewitness testimony. The go to jail based on circumstantial evidence. You need to get past the opinion that there is no evidence.

For example -

TJ Gassnola testified under oath in a federal trial that he provided money to Preston and SDS. Testimony under oath is "proof." Maybe not what you feel sufficient, but certainly sufficient in a court of law (and the low end stuff like NCAA enforcement). His level of credibility is extremely high because 1) Federal prosecutors put him on the stand in a high profile case, and 2) they would have vetted his claims related to his plea deal. Not to mention that his testimony helped lead to convictions, and his own actions led to a plea. KU presumably says they had no knowledge of it. So KU can't deny it. KU undeniably sought Adidas' help and intervention with recruits. The texting demonstrates that on its on, but that part isn't denied anyway. Thus those actors, whom KU solicited for help, broke NCAA rules assisting KU in recruiting.

You also seem to think that because others are corrupt, KU can't be punished. Don't you think others have tutors that do the work for players like MU did? Or that booster give money to recruits like happened with BYU? They got punished, right?

The NCAA, like law enforcement, can only act on the info they have. Meaning, sure, others may be smuggling drugs but they don't defer punishing those they catch because others are doing the same thing and not getting caught.

If you refuse to acknowledge or understand the above, I can't help you.

As we sit here, we don't know what the NCAA will do. I hope you're right on the punishment. I fear a bad result. But I hope other factors weigh here and the NCAA wimps out (selfishly). I've felt from the start that if we get hammered, we should "burn it down." That is, give the NCAA all the info we know on other schools, etc. Who knows, that might be going on behind closed doors. I would certainly, if I were KU, consider that negotiating strategy in advance to get a slap on the wrist.

Bad rumours are swirling.

BShark said:

Bad rumours are swirling.

Like what?

That sanctions are coming for KU

BShark said:

That sanctions are coming for KU

Great - - - - how bad?

Bad

Hoping it's just a bunch of crap.

Haven't heard a peep from anyone about it.

BShark said:

Bad rumours are swirling.

I love the spelling on "rumours" -- like a Fleetwood Mac album or something.

FarmerJayhawk said:

Haven't heard a peep from anyone about it.

Seems like a mixed bag on the phog but wanted to bring it up here in case someone more tied in has heard more.

BShark said:

FarmerJayhawk said:

Haven't heard a peep from anyone about it.

Seems like a mixed bag on the phog but wanted to bring it up here in case someone more tied in has heard more.

ya I decided to run there and see too. - -like you say mixed , seems though also a lot calling BS.

One Poster said nothing would happen this quick - -would be a letter of notice to the School the School would have time to gather information and a lot of back and forth for months - -saying at worst we might get a letter today of Allegations

@HighEliteMajor I, like you, have always been worried about this. Now I am really worried.

A notice of allegations, yes, would be bad. We heard two months ago that the letters would be coming. This seems like reasonable time for that phase. But rumors ...

@HighEliteMajor Fleetwood Mac sounds better

Crimsonorblue22 said:

@HighEliteMajor Fleetwood Mac sounds better

Stevie Nicks was always great .. always a little partial to Joan Jett though.

https://t.co/tl5VqcC7q6?amp=1 ↗

My best cut and paste from @FarmerJayhawk's link-

University of Kansas

KU basketball expected to face multiple major violation allegations from NCAA

By Jesse Newelland

Steve Vockrodt

September 20, 2019 03:05 PM,Updated 12 minutes ago University of Kansas Athletic Director Jeff Long talks about the university's 14-year extension with Adidas, amid the NCAA investigation into college basketball recruiting. The NCAA is preparing to issue a notice of allegations that details multiple major violations in the Kansas men’s basketball program, The Star has learned.

The notice will come, sources told The Star, after a summer of speculation following a top NCAA official saying the organization would make findings against schools involved in a pay-for-play recruiting scheme investigated by the FBI.

When asked for comment, Dan Beckler, associate KU athletic director for public relations, told The Star that KU Athletics had not received any notification from the NCAA.

The Star also asked the NCAA for comment.

“Due to member-created rules, we cannot comment on current, pending or potential investigations,” Stacey Osburn, NCAA director of public and media relations, wrote in an email.

On June 12, Stan Wilcox, the NCAA’s vice president of regulatory affairs, said at least six schools would receive a notice of allegations for Level 1 violationsthis summer.

North Carolina State on July 10 received a notice of allegations that included two Level 1 violations.

Level 1 violations carry some of the most severe punishment, including postseason bans and loss of scholarships.

N.C. State and Kansas were among the schools associated with Adidas that were named during the federal investigation.

Former Adidas employee T.J. Gassnola testified in federal court last October that he made payments of $90,000 on behalf of Adidas to the mother of KU basketball player Billy Preston and $2,500 to the guardian of Silvio De Sousa. Gassnola also said he agreed to pay $20,000 to Fenny Falmagne, the guardian of De Sousa, to help Falmagne exit an agreement to send De Sousa to Maryland, an Under Armour school.

Gassnola testified that KU coach Bill Self was not aware of the payments.

As a result of that trial, De Sousa was given a two-year NCAA suspension. Kansas appealed the second year of the punishment and the NCAA reinstated De Sousa, who is allowed to play this upcoming season.

Gassnola avoided prison time and was sentenced to probation.

One of KU’s NCAA issues could be Gassnola’s relationship to Self and assistant Kurtis Townsend as revealed in court.

Text messages showed that during the time KU was recruiting De Sousa, KU coaches were aware that Gassnola was in contact with De Sousa’s guardian, Fenny Falmagne.

Gassnola testified that Townsend asked him to contact De Sousa’s guardian. Falmagne told The Star he wanted to see if Adidas would send gear it didn’t need to Angola’s national team.

Third parties and/or boosters are not allowed to provide anything with monetary value to a recruit or the recruit’s family or guardian. It is possible the NCAA deems it inappropriate for Townsend to ask Gassnola to send gear to Angola.

ESPN recently reported that NCAA investigators in addition to N.C. State were working on cases at KU, Arizona, Auburn, Creighton, Louisville, LSU and USC.

When a school such as KU receives a notice of allegations, the university has 90 days to respond. The NCAA has granted extensions to schools in the past.

The school response then is sent to an NCAA enforcement committee. That committee has 60 days to file a reply and a “statement of the case.”

Next, a hearing date is scheduled with the NCAA Committee on Infractions. At that hearing, the university is allowed to present its case with an NCAA ruling to follow. The ruling could take several months to reach.

If a school is assessed penalties, it has the opportunity to appeal.

The Star’s Gary Bedore contributed to this report

We won't know anything until they get the NOA and see what is in it. That is a extremely vague report by the Star.

@Woodrow The "multiple major violations" is what stands out to me. Excuse me while I go throw up.

HighEliteMajor said:

@Woodrow The "multiple major violations" is what stands out to me. Excuse me while I go throw up.

I was afraid of this - -NOW we know why recruiting SUCKS THIS SEASON

@HighEliteMajor Oh yea I am with you. However, the NCAA is going to go big and then KU will appeal and they will meet somewhere in the middle.

I just don't know what worse case scenario is. IMO it would be Self saying F this and leaving. Second would be a postseason ban.

Woodrow said:

@HighEliteMajor Oh yea I am with you. However, the NCAA is going to go big and then KU will appeal and they will meet somewhere in the middle.

I just don't know what worse case scenario is. IMO it would be Self saying F this and leaving. Second would be a postseason ban.

Read somewhere there Self had offered his Resignation

Was just a matter of time

So KU says no notification received yet, and NCAA has no comment. The article is basically a rehash of old news. Nothing new except Jesse either has a source at the NCAA or he reads sports forums like the rest of us.

@jayballer73 I think that is someone being a troll. Self has said numerous times he plans to stick it out , but maybe he thought they were in the clear. Who the hell knows at this point.

Shitty thing is they are going to be good this year, but know they will have this hanging them all year.

Kansas is just gonna get a notice like what NC State Get

DanR said:

So KU says no notification received yet, and NCAA has no comment. The article is basically a rehash of old news. Nothing new except Jesse either has a source at the NCAA or he reads sports forums like the rest of us.

If the source is one of those phog poster I would die. :face_with_tears_of_joy:

I heard no post season ban

I think worst case scenario is vacating games Silvio played in and some recruiting restrictions. If the NCAA goes much more than that they’ll have to give Zona and NC St. the death penalty

FarmerJayhawk said:

I think worst case scenario is vacating games Silvio played in and some recruiting restrictions. If the NCAA goes much more than that they’ll have to give Zona and NC St. the death penalty

Still beat Duke, I saw it.

BShark said:

FarmerJayhawk said:

I think worst case scenario is vacating games Silvio played in and some recruiting restrictions. If the NCAA goes much more than that they’ll have to give Zona and NC St. the death penalty

Still beat Duke, I saw it.

They can never undo the liver damage caused by random strangers buying my KU group tequila shots

BShark said:

FarmerJayhawk said:

I think worst case scenario is vacating games Silvio played in and some recruiting restrictions. If the NCAA goes much more than that they’ll have to give Zona and NC St. the death penalty

Still beat Duke, I saw it.

If they take away the Duke win, they have to take away the Nova loss. Glass half full, ya know.

I'll say this much, I'll be done with college athletics if the NCAA comes down hard on us and some the other Adidas schools while not batting an eye at the Nike schools. We all know Zion got paid and most of UKs recruits aswell.

Issac McBride leaving. 🐦 View Tweet?s=21

@FarmerJayhawk is that due to this or something totally unrelated???

Woodrow said:

@FarmerJayhawk is that due to this or something totally unrelated???

SOMETHING TOTALL UNRELATED

Woodrow said:

@FarmerJayhawk is that due to this or something totally unrelated???

Harris is better. Now we have an open scholarship. Sup Kyree

McBride is leaving KU

This generation of kids just makes you laugh

BeddieKU23 said:

This generation of kids just makes you laugh

Sounds mutual. Also the decision was made Tuesday apparently. Really sounds like he was the 13th guy on the roster.

There's always barber college for guys like McBride.

Woodrow said:

@jayballer73 I think that is someone being a troll. Self has said numerous times he plans to stick it out , but maybe he thought they were in the clear. Who the hell knows at this point.

Shitty thing is they are going to be good this year, but know they will have this hanging them all year.

enjoy this year - -things could be really messy for a few after

FarmerJayhawk said:

I think worst case scenario is vacating games Silvio played in and some recruiting restrictions. If the NCAA goes much more than that they’ll have to give Zona and NC St. the death penalty

You really think those that you mentioned are that serious? - - the way they talking MULTIPLE SERIOUS Allegations

FarmerJayhawk said:

Woodrow said:

@FarmerJayhawk is that due to this or something totally unrelated???

Harris is better. Now we have an open scholarship. Sup Kyree

I would Love Kyree -- -BUT no way now - - I think the staff backed off Kyree , because they heard about his so called over sea's thing - - Now in his 247 CB - -he doesn't even list KU as one of his top five schools - -I think we totally if that turns out MAJOR recruiting screw up - -that fish was as good as in our pan

And here we go people starting to take shots at McBride - -I'll NEVER understand - -kids decides to leave - - - -he leaves - so be itv- -there is no reason just because the kid leaves that people should start taking crack as remarks about him. -- We was fine before he got here - - we will be fine after he isn't here - - one way or another it will work out..

What does people gain by acting like that? - -not the 1st kid to leave - - not the only school that a kid has left - -as Aaron - -says R - - -E - - - L - - - A - - -X - -Sun STILL gonna come up tomorrow - -come up in the East - -and set in the West - -just breathe. - - umm , umm , umm - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

Rough day.

jayballer73 said:

And here we go people starting to take shots at McBride - -I'll NEVER understand - -kids decides to leave - - - -he leaves - so be itv- -there is no reason just because the kid leaves that people should start taking crack as remarks about him. -- We was fine before he got here - - we will be fine after he isn't here - - one way or another it will work out..

What does people gain by acting like that? - -not the 1st kid to leave - - not the only school that a kid has left - -as Aaron - -says R - - -E - - - L - - - A - - -X - -Sun STILL gonna come up tomorrow - -come up in the East - -and set in the West - -just breathe. - - umm , umm , umm - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

And Plus the kid has the right to think if the program is not a fit for them

I think we're all missing the larger positive here. The moral fiber of today's high level D-1 basketball player has never been higher. Here we have Kansas offering them bags of cash as well as homes/jobs for their parents and yet instead they're taking the high ground and choosing to go to Duke/Kentucky/Memphis for free. The future is truly bright.

JAYHAWKFAN214 said:

jayballer73 said:

And here we go people starting to take shots at McBride - -I'll NEVER understand - -kids decides to leave - - - -he leaves - so be itv- -there is no reason just because the kid leaves that people should start taking crack as remarks about him. -- We was fine before he got here - - we will be fine after he isn't here - - one way or another it will work out..

What does people gain by acting like that? - -not the 1st kid to leave - - not the only school that a kid has left - -as Aaron - -says R - - -E - - - L - - - A - - -X - -Sun STILL gonna come up tomorrow - -come up in the East - -and set in the West - -just breathe. - - umm , umm , umm - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

And Plus the kid has the right to think if the program is not a fit for them

Exactly - - kids makes mistakes - -so be it - - ya true I hate he is leaving but what ya gonna do?

@jayballer73 so... how does this work? We gave him a scholarship, school started, so... does he pay us back or does he get a semester for free?

Maybe we could agree to vacate that final four beatdown by Villanova in which Silvio played and we can call it even.

rockchalkwyo said:

@jayballer73 so... how does this work? We gave him a scholarship, school started, so... does he pay us back or does he get a semester for free?

I'm not sure about that - -one of the guys will be able to fill us in on that I'm syre. -- ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

They can’t make us take down the final four banner. (Can they?)

@chriz Yes, they can. See Memphis ‘08, Louisville ‘13.

chriz said:

They can’t make us take down the final four banner. (Can they?)

Not only take down the banner, but they basically wipe it from history. Can’t promote it, use it in highlights, or anything. It’s like we never beat dook (other than everyone remembers the ghost of James Naismith intervening at the end of regulation)

@chriz In the eyes of the NCAA, Michigan's Fab Five years don't exist.

focojayhawk said:

I think we're all missing the larger positive here. The moral fiber of today's high level D-1 basketball player has never been higher. Here we have Kansas offering them bags of cash as well as homes/jobs for their parents and yet instead they're taking the high ground and choosing to go to Duke/Kentucky/Memphis for free. The future is truly bright.

PHOF? This has my vote.

Gassnola is from Springfield Mass. The good Dr. must be rolling in his grave.

🐦 View Tweet?s=21

So same thing, nothing new, except fb. Hmmm we can fight this.

The only way LOIC can stick is with the football violations. I think it gets dropped on appeal. Long is assembling a UNC type group to fight this thing, and will to the bitter end.

I do think we should self-impose penalties: vacate all wins Billy played in and a postseason ban in football this year.

@FarmerJayhawk Now that’s good stuff. Haha

focojayhawk said:

I think we're all missing the larger positive here. The moral fiber of today's high level D-1 basketball player has never been higher. Here we have Kansas offering them bags of cash as well as homes/jobs for their parents and yet instead they're taking the high ground and choosing to go to Duke/Kentucky/Memphis for free. The future is truly bright.

You forgot to mention that Duke's in-house investigation backs up your optimistic opinion!

I wonder what the penalty would be if this Duke dream was proven wrong and they clearly conspired to cover it up?

FarmerJayhawk said:

The only way LOIC can stick is with the football violations. I think it gets dropped on appeal. Long is assembling a UNC type group to fight this thing, and will to the bitter end.

The best thing to do is fight it. Give in and you end up like Missouri.

Mike Vernon posted this screencap of a post from Friday I think off the Slant

!alt text ↗

BShark said:

FarmerJayhawk said:

The only way LOIC can stick is with the football violations. I think it gets dropped on appeal. Long is assembling a UNC type group to fight this thing, and will to the bitter end.

The best thing to do is fight it. Give in and you end up like Missouri.

The AD is loaded for bear. This won’t be quick or painless for the jagoffs in Indy.

Crimsonorblue22 said:

So same thing, nothing new, except fb. Hmmm we can fight this.

Well, I think there is. Lack of institutional control. Lack of coach control.

A lack of institutional control is found when the Committee on Infractions determines that major violations occurred and the institution failed to display:

– Adequate compliance measures.

– Appropriate education on those compliance measures.

– Sufficient monitoring to ensure the compliance measures are followed.

– Swift action upon learning of a violation.

Here is the full article -

https://sports.yahoo.com/sources-kansas-basketball-charged-with-multiple-level-1-violations-including-lack-of-institutional-control-210015300.html ↗

FarmerJayhawk said:

BShark said:

FarmerJayhawk said:

The only way LOIC can stick is with the football violations. I think it gets dropped on appeal. Long is assembling a UNC type group to fight this thing, and will to the bitter end.

The best thing to do is fight it. Give in and you end up like Missouri.

The AD is loaded for bear. This won’t be quick or painless for the jagoffs in Indy.

Full scale war if needed I say.

Now we all know why recruiting has been shit though. Oddly enough I'm kind of intrigued to see Bill with a ragtag squad.

I would sue the NCAA, Dook and UK continue to not be investigated while pulling consistently better classes. 🤔 KU is paying guys in the 40s while the guys in the top 10 are playing for free lol. The NCAA is Nike's pawn, switch back to nike, it all goes away.

BShark said:

FarmerJayhawk said:

BShark said:

FarmerJayhawk said:

The only way LOIC can stick is with the football violations. I think it gets dropped on appeal. Long is assembling a UNC type group to fight this thing, and will to the bitter end.

The best thing to do is fight it. Give in and you end up like Missouri.

The AD is loaded for bear. This won’t be quick or painless for the jagoffs in Indy.

Full scale war if needed I say.

Now we all know why recruiting has been shit though. Oddly enough I'm kind of intrigued to see Bill with a ragtag squad.

It certainly will be.

kjayhawks said:

I'll say this much, I'll be done with college athletics if the NCAA comes down hard on us and some the other Adidas schools while not batting an eye at the Nike schools. We all know Zion got paid and most of UKs recruits aswell.

I have connected with several ex-players and they all say the same thing... supporting part of my disdain for Nike. Let's see what happens. Give the world time to build the case against Nike. I feel certain it will come and when it does it will make the Adidas situation look like the reality it is... small potatoes!

Yikes - “The committee on infractions has shown in the past that it's very reticent to punish some schools. We'll have to wait and see. If they're doing their job, Kansas should be absolutely eviscerated.” -David Ridpath, president of the Drake Group, a think tank dedicated to protecting academic integrity in college sports, and an associate professor of sports business at Ohio University

Integrity...LOL

@dylans

Unless the NCAA knows something the DOJ and FBI couldn't discover, I'm not holding my breath on any of these threats.

We are not living in the "good ol' days." The NCAA would love to just smash schools and prove they are in control. Realistically, that isn't as possible today because schools are realizing they can fight back and use the justice system outside of the NCAA world.

@drgnslayr The actual threat is f’d up recruiting for years to come with not outcome in sight.

Enter the inner stupidMichael in all of us.

@dylans

I don't know... schools like Arizona do fine with the mess they are in. And I'm feeling fine if we stop going after these pipe dream players that rarely produce anything for us except build our egos that we can win top notch talent. Look at teams like Nova. Don't you think we can even do a better job at winning over Nova? We live in the Midwest... where life moves a bit slower and people are used to the idea that hard work pays off.

Oddly enough I'm kind of intrigued to see Bill with a ragtag squad.

I agree. I've never been that interested in recruiting drama. I get that talent is important, but without time to develop, expectations are rarely met. That's just disappointment. Let's see how Bill can do with a bunch of 4-year players without the NBA distractions. I like the silver lining.

Kansas has put out a statement to what the NCAA has said

BShark said:

Now we all know why recruiting has been shit though. Oddly enough I'm kind of intrigued to see Bill with a ragtag squad.

Took Tusla to the Elite 8 with basically that.

Self isn’t messing around. Same firm that represented Silvio. 🐦 View Tweet?s=21

@FarmerJayhawk The comments on here are not promising. With that said I’m sure most of them just hate KU for being KU.

https://247sports.com/college/kansas/Article/Bill-Self-blasts-false-narrative-from-NCAA-enforcement-staff-KU-basketball-allegations-136040848/ ↗

HighEliteMajor said:

https://247sports.com/college/kansas/Article/Bill-Self-blasts-false-narrative-from-NCAA-enforcement-staff-KU-basketball-allegations-136040848/ ↗

That's certainly a strong response.

Also I've been going over what I can find of the NOA...

This shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone but it did confirm Larry Brown basically gift wrapped Silvio to KU (doesn't take a big leap to guess he gift wrapped Bruno to Maryland).

A quote from Selfs response -

“By the NCAA's own admission through its public statements early this summer, it's no secret that there is tremendous pressure on the NCAA to respond to the federal court proceedings involving college basketball ... ”

Amen. To paraphrase a line from the movie “A Few Good Men”, they were “bullied into the courtroom. “

@Bosthawk love that!

@Bosthawk

They didnt even show up to the court room fyi. Still a good quote

I was pleased with Self's statement. And while all of it could be true it won't matter. Lawyers and evidence may reduce the penalties but there is very little chance the KU program leaves this battle without penalties.

Not playing Preston doesn't matter. Sitting De Sousa for a year doesn't matter. Preston was paid behind KU's back. De Sousa's Guardian was paid. In the NCAA's eyes that's all the smoking gun they need.

I'm hopeful that KU will fight this to the bitter end as it looks like they are prepared to do.

For those that want to read the NOA and haven't seen it. Here is a link. Apologies if already posted

https://publicaffairs.ku.edu/sites/publicaffairs.ku.edu/files/docs/NOA%20to%20KU.pdf ↗

@BeddieKU23 Of course there are going to be penalties, but it is not going to be nearly as severe as people are freaking out about. I am guessing it will be a loss in recruiting time / a reduction in scholarships for a couple years, and Self gets 5-10 game suspension. Also, they will be put on probation.

Woodrow said:

@BeddieKU23 Of course there are going to be penalties, but it is not going to be nearly as severe as people are freaking out about. I am guessing it will be a loss in recruiting time / a reduction in scholarships for a couple years, and Self gets 5-10 game suspension. Also, they will be put on probation.

I'll let this play out but I believe the penalties could be more significant in the end. I would be surprised at minimal penalties for both the Program and Self/Townsend. T very well could lose his job

@Woodrow What would lead you to conclude we will get what amounts to a slap on the wrist?

We should all look at paragraph 5.b. Three athletic department administrators identified red flags/concerns with Gassnola, but the athletic department took no action.

We were led to believe that the vehicle issue with Preston was a big surprise. Not so much. Staff knew he had the vehicle but it was not registered with the athletic department compliance. Paragraph 5.d.

Didn’t Ollie get a show cause penalty and is banned for 3+ years? This could be the end for Self. This could also be just the end of recruiting for a couple years while KU fights the charges. No recourse if you win either, those recruits aren’t coming back.

@HighEliteMajor Because the NCAA has over reached here. They are trying to make a statement and example out of Self and KU, and in the long run that is not going to work out for them. I have heard multiple national writers who cover college basketball state that they will not be surprised at all if this ends up in federal court with KU suing the NCAA.

Fans / people over react all the time when seeing things like this. It is not all doom and gloom even though half the fan base thinks it is.

@Woodrow I guess I'm not seeing overreaching by the NCAA. If this were Duke and Nike, I'd think the allegations were reasonable based on what we know. I don't like what I see and I see it as grossly unfair given what we assume other big schools are doing in concert with their shoeco reps. But I've yet to see even a whisper of proof on others.

So what is overreaching in your opinion? Or to everyone else, what does anyone else see as overreaching here?

@HighEliteMajor whisper https://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2019/08/zion-nike-payment-35000-michael-avenatti-alleged-duke-basketball-pelicans-krzyzewski ↗

The trouble the NCAA has is that KU never played Preston, sat De Sousa, and Williamson went to a different school. Unless investigations and allegations are coming for other major programs, the NCAA is in a bind. How do you punish KU without investigating Duke? How do you punish KU and Duke without hurting college basketball overall?

The NCAA is dragging itself closer and closer to the abyss, but can't decide if it will throw itself or its premier programs over the edge, not realizing that they are all handcuffed together anyway.

The only solution is to back away from the abyss. Clearly, that's not the NCAA's plan, so everyone will plummet to doom.

This sort of feels like a last stand for the NCAA.

Who takes them seriously anymore?

California, under threat that their schools could be banned from post-season play, all but unanimously passed their law that allows players to take money and not lose their scholarship. 20+ more states in the process of drafting a similar bill now.

The NBAPA agents all refused to follow the NCAAs rules for agents.

Will Wade literally talked about how much he paid for a player on the phone. Wade was reinstated and that player played the rest of the season.

Sean Miller has an assistant convicted in the scheme. There is as much evidence against him as anyone, somehow not fired.

Duke conducted an internal investigation, when we all know what got Bagley to North Carolina. We have evidence of Zion being offered by several schools. But they found nothing...

Miami paid Nassir Little. Jim Larrañaga still the coach. And Little played all season at UNC.

Avenatti is singing like a bird with a former AAU coach from California. Says Bol Bol went to Oregon for cash with documentation. Says Ayton went to Arizona for cash with documentation. Says Bagley went to Duke for cash with documentation. Not a peep from those schools.

Wendell Carter Jr. a player for Duke - Parents went to lunch with an agent. That agent, alone, somehow wracked up a $100+ tab on his own. Carter's parents didn't even eat... Must have been a hell of a steak.

KU landed two guys who were paid, and went for a third. And we're denying the hell out of it being our responsibility.

Maryland paid De Sousa and not a word has been spoken about Turgeon in the national media. Much less Maryland coming out and making an official statement.

Collin Sexton only got a 4 game suspension and Avery Johnson finished the season.

Personally, I think KU will and should fight this to the death. I think they SHOULD take it to court. And, on top of the obviously circumstantial evidence presented in the NOA, my argument would be that the NCAA is unable to fairly and broadly enforce the rules and is unable to monitor their member institutions. There were 30+ programs named at the trials. Unless all of them were investigated with the same thoroughness as KU was, they are unable to fairly apply the rules across the board. The NCAA themselves, lack institutional control. I'd argue that they should have known that Apparel sponsors were offering impermissible benefits as much as KU should have known. I'd argue that the NCAA didn't take control of recruiting until 2018, when they set up rules for AAU events. I'd argue that the commission they put together themselves realized how widespread this was, and that it's a failure of duty on their part that it took this long to investigate. If they were unwilling to investigate the underbelly of College Basketball until recently, how on Earth is one single member institution supposed to combat it?

The issue is widespread, and that is largely due to the fact that the NCAA has been unwilling to use their resources, which consist of a billion dollars of revenue, to combat impermissible benefits from 3rd parties and protect the "NCAA Collegiate Model." If they are unwilling to do it, why should KU be? If they cared, there would be 30+ schools under investigation right now. There would be an official NCAA employee working in the compliance department at every single NCAA institution in the country. But there isn't. Because the NCAA arbitrarily applies the rules when they feel like applying the rules. And they do that after taking no steps to prevent rules from being broken.

I'd love to see the NCAA rules enforcement process get audited by a major accounting firm. They have no controls and no prevention process. They, as the parent company over 300+ institutions, knew that those institutions were essentially "under attack" and prone to corruption with a 3rd party. Yet, their "prevention process" is to simply ask that people who have millions of dollars at stake turn themselves in. And institutions who have tens of millions of dollars at stake to also turn themselves in. It may be the right thing to do. And acting with integrity should be expected from us fans. But the NCAA has a duty to it's other member institutions to enforce the rules and put in processes that create as even of a playing field as possible. Yet, they don't, haven't and won't.

The NCAA created this issue when they allowed 3rd party money to infiltrate college athletics. And it's the NCAA's fault they did nothing to prevent the wide-spread corruption since. They can't all of a sudden decide they don't like it when they are the ones who created it...

@Kcmatt7 That's an awesome post ... of PHOF dimensions. Great read.

@Kcmatt7

Well done, Well Done. You win the internet for today

@Kcmatt7 Very well said. Feel like this sums up the way I feel about the whole mess as well.

HighEliteMajor said:

@Woodrow What would lead you to conclude we will get what amounts to a slap on the wrist?

We should all look at paragraph 5.b. Three athletic department administrators identified red flags/concerns with Gassnola, but the athletic department took no action.

We were led to believe that the vehicle issue with Preston was a big surprise. Not so much. Staff knew he had the vehicle but it was not registered with the athletic department compliance. Paragraph 5.d.

Dam good points HighElite , I couldn't agree more. - - You and Beddie make very solid points , theories. - -I'm afraid there are some that just refuse to realize the possibilities of sanctions/penalties .

I mean I know what I have to say here probably won't make some people here to happy , Some may think I'm full of S - - - - -it's ok I understand their frustration - - Hell I'm frustrated. We were already frustrated with recruiting , now we know why it sucked

People will or have said well - -if we get hammered by the NCAA then by GOD - - Duke , -- North Carolina , - -Arizona , - -Louisville and others better get hammered to - ain't right. - - Thing is - - I get that m I understand how others feel and think - -I've been right there with them - -it sucks

Yet at the end of the day = - - - I don't give a flying rat's ass about Duke - - North Carolina -- Arizona's - - The Louisville of the world all I care about is KU the others can go screw themselves -doesn't effect me about their programs - -The program that effects me is KU

It's going to be interesting if Coach Self get's suspended for the year - - -some here don't seem to think there is no way in hell that will happen - - well as the old Game Day guy says - - Not so Fast my friends - -don't ever say ever - - again we are dealing with this BS NCAA here. -I think there is a very good chance we vacate wins - get stripped of our final four - - -and possibly even banned from the tourney for a year -it's ok if you don't agree - - all I'm saying there is that possibility.

Like High Elite says there were 3 AD Admins here that got ignored - -we are talking multiple level 1 infractions - - The NCAA is looking for a whipping boy - -who better then Ol KU

I tell ya I'm so bummed out with this crap -I'm so afraid that after this year we are going on a free fall for a couple of years -it's gonna get uglier before it gets better -IF Coach doesn't get suspended then we are REALLY gonna see his HOF abilities - but at the end of the day -- I've always been a Jayhawk - - Always will be a Jayhawk - -through and through - -difference between bandwagon fans - -and TRUE FANS - -true fans stick it out - -good times - -AND bad times - -and as always ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

The sooner there is a resolution, even a poor one, the sooner things get back to normal. As long as the ncaa is investigating forget about getting anything consistent in recruiting.

Self basically said "Everyone does it" in text.

Self responded: “That’s how ur (sic) works. At unc and Duke”

That defense never works.

dylans said:

The sooner there is a resolution, even a poor one, the sooner things get back to normal. As long as the ncaa is investigating forget about getting anything consistent in recruiting.

Unlikely to see a quick resolution. I would expect KU takes most of the 90 days to respond then there's another waiting period for the NCAA rebuttal and next course of action. Wouldn't be surprised to see this lingering for the next year. Is that a fair assumption?

@BeddieKU23 yes. I seriously doubt anything happens before the b-ball season ends.

Paul Finebaum (loud mouth hack) is expecting Bill Self to lose his job. Says Long isn’t a longtime Jayhawk so expect no loyalty there. Better win a championship this season to keep his job.

Not my take, probably a hot take to grab attention, but it’s an opinion that’s out there.

@dylans

I'm sure others think he could lose his job. It's not out of the realm of possibility if the allegations stick, they did attack Self in the NOA with everything they had.

I think he's gasping with the Long thing but I also think he is just generally connecting dots on how things go when new AD's take over for coaches they didn't hire. I don't think the details fit the normal narrative that leads to coaching changes but maybe I'm just seeing things through Crimson & Blue. From everything I've heard from rumor to general impression is that Long/Self have a very good relationship and Long has been preparing for the moment to go to war for him and the program.

I guess we'll see where the AD stands through this as things develop

@BeddieKU23 @dylans I would be shocked if Long turns on Self. I firmly believe that Long would not have his job except for Self's approval. I would suspect that Self required him to kiss the ring prior to his hiring. The issue is not Long in my opinion. It's the Chancellor, board of regents, egg-heads. Those are the folks that could turn on him pretty easily. Get focused like I did on "honesty and integrity." Sometimes that is a real consideration. From folks in the proverbial ivory towers, I doubt their sincerity .. always. Of course, Long could see the opening to be more powerful here and turn on Self in part because of that. The consolidation of power thing.

And we know that only one person in the room profits from KU getting sanctioned. Mr. Long. I'd like to know the brain surgeon that put that deal together. But from Long's end, he has the perfect storm -- I didn't do it, I get more money, and I can remove the King. Not saying it happens or that Long even thinks that way. Just discussion.

NCAA Mission Statement
(according to ncaa.org)

Core Ideology:
The NCAA's core ideology consists of two notions: core purpose - the organization's reason for being - and core values - essential and enduring principles that guide an organization.

Core Purpose:
Our purpose is to govern competition in a fair, safe, equitable and sportsmanlike manner, and to integrate intercollegiate athletics into higher education so that the educational experience of the student-athlete is paramount.

Core Values:
The Association - through its member institutions, conferences and national office staff - shares a belief in and commitment to:

· The collegiate model of athletics in which students participate as an avocation, balancing their academic, social and athletics experiences.

· The highest levels of integrity and sportsmanship.

· The pursuit of excellence in both academics and athletics.

· The supporting role that intercollegiate athletics plays in the higher education mission and in enhancing the sense of community and strengthening the identity of member institutions.

· An inclusive culture that fosters equitable participation for student-athletes and career opportunities for coaches and administrators from diverse backgrounds.

· Respect for institutional autonomy and philosophical differences.

· Presidential leadership of intercollegiate athletics at the campus, conference and national levels.

** WOW. A mission statement of crap from top to bottom

HighEliteMajor said:

@BeddieKU23 @dylans I would be shocked if Long turns on Self. I firmly believe that Long would not have his job except for Self's approval. I would suspect that Self required him to kiss the ring prior to his hiring. The issue is not Long in my opinion. It's the Chancellor, board of regents, egg-heads. Those are the folks that could turn on him pretty easily. Get focused like I did on "honesty and integrity." Sometimes that is a real consideration. From folks in the proverbial ivory towers, I doubt their sincerity .. always. Of course, Long could see the opening to be more powerful here and turn on Self in part because of that. The consolidation of power thing.

And we know that only one person in the room profits from KU getting sanctioned. Mr. Long. I'd like to know the brain surgeon that put that deal together. But from Long's end, he has the perfect storm -- I didn't do it, I get more money, and I can remove the King. Not saying it happens or that Long even thinks that way. Just discussion.

I don't know why , but something just keeps tugging at me and trying to tell me IF this should happen , then don't rule out ANYTHING. - -part of that anything and this is the thing for some reason I keep getting this sense - -this gut feeling - -what if Long doesn't fire him - -BUT what if Coach Self says - - screw this - -Screw the NCAA and just walks? - - says enough of this BS recruiting -- we all have heard how it takes quite the tow on people/family - -what if he just says he has had enough of the NCAA and their BS rules and regulations? - -what if they do suspend him and he just kicks rocks - -tries the NBA ?

The thing is what does he have left to accomplish at the College level? - - - Conference Championship? - -Done that - - - - NCAA Title ? - - -Done That - - - Being inducted to the College Hall of Fame ? - - - Done that -- Coach of the year ? - - - Done that. - -maybe - - just maybe he is just plain tired of all this NCAA BS - -this is something that makes me wonder - - even if it's just a small amount? - -Never say Never. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@Kcmatt7

Elite level post. Best on this topic. Probably the best on this board, regardless of topic, all year.

@BeddieKU23

I don't think Self loses his job. The only evidence out there is that he let the Adidas guys do what other schools let their chosen apparel provider do. Like I said, everyone is staring down into the abyss. The only way back is for everyone to walk away.

Unless there is something more substantial against Self, this is just going to be a lot of screaming and yelling, but nothing more.

You also have to remember that a KU postseason ban also hurts the Big 12. Each NCAA tournament win is worth a unit. Each team that even makes the tournament receives a unit. A unit was worth $280,300 in 2019, $273,500 in 2018, $265,000 in 2017, $260,500 in 2016, $250,106 in 2015 and $245,500 in 2014. In 2019, KU was worth 2 units. In 2018, KU was worth 5 units. In 2017, KU was worth 4 units. In 2016, KU was worth 4 units, and 2 units each in 2015 and 2014.

That's $560,600 last year, plus $1,367,500 in 2018, $1,060,000 in 2017, $1,042,000 in 2016, $500,212 in 2015 and $491,000 in 2014.

That's $5,021,312 over the last six years. Since that is distributed over a six year period, that means each school in the Big 12 will receive $83K+ from KU's basketball program this year alone. With each unit this year likely approaching $290,000, that's nearly $5,000 per Big 12 school every year for the next six years for each win KU has in the tournament. Since KU is perennially worth at least two units, that's an easy 10 grand on the line for the next six years for every school in the conference. A multiple year ban for KU could cost each conference school around $20K or more each year (assuming a two or three year ban). That's not millions, but it definitely isn't nothing.

It's a wonder that every school in the conference isn't storming the NCAA offices demanding fair treatment for KU. KU gets them paid every March. If the Big 12 is going to lose KU's unit wins, the ACC should lose Duke (and UNC, and Louisville), the Pac12 should lose Arizona (and USC), the Big 10 should lose Maryland (and Michigan), and the SEC should lose Kentucky (and LSU).

Somehow, though, I don't think the NCAA is looking forward to March Madness with no Duke, UNC, Kentucky, KU, Louisville, Arizona, USC, Michigan, LSU, etc.

Kcmatt7 said:

The NCAA themselves, lack institutional control.

^^^^^ This is the quote.

In an age of broken institutions that operate with double-standards and hypocrisy, the NCAA is a model.

Also, the timing of this comes after KU beat Duke three times straight. Could it be that someone's knickers are in a twist?

oops, was that innuendo?

🐦 View Tweet?s=21

Gary parish

@Crimsonorblue22 Now I'm mad and I don't want Bill Self fired. Parish seems to say what we've been saying for years here.

If Self is fired over this - I'm checking out. I will have watched my last college basketball game ever. I can do it - I quit a 3 pack a day cigarette habit cold turkey. I quit a case of beer per night (plus other assorted goodies) - cold turkey. When I set my mind to something - it's done. I've been less and less enamored with college basketball the past several years and this would be the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. I hope it's not the case - but I'm right there on the edge.

🐦 View Tweet?s=21

Part 2

just some insane tidbit to the NCAA - - and sanctions over the years.. - - -

According to a article at the Inside Higher Ed.com. this was a 2016 Article - -in a time frame from 2006 through 2015 - -more then a quarter of ALL division 1 College's - - 43 % of ALL FBS football programs and MORE then HALF of the members from Power 5 Conferences committed MAJOR violations of NCAA rules. - - you hear what I'm saying here - - more then HALF of Power 5 Conference members committed MAJOR violations - -this crap is insane.

16 programs were punished twice during this same time frame - - -AND two of our fellow conference members were punished 3 times during this time frame - - Oklahoma & West Virginia - -the numbers of this is kind of boggling to me - - I know most of this is with football but still the system is messed up - - -for all these programs to violate like that -- over half of your members- -what's wrong with this picture? - - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

Great article by Chad Lawhorn analyzing why the case involves the booster issue, etc.

http://m.kusports.com/news/2019/sep/24/analysis-understanding-what-matters-and-what-doesn/ ↗

@Crimsonorblue22 here’s a link found in a comment. How reputable is it?
https://www.oregonlive.com/business/page/the_loyalty_game.html ↗

nuleafjhawk said:

If Self is fired over this - I'm checking out. I will have watched my last college basketball game ever. I can do it - I quit a 3 pack a day cigarette habit cold turkey. I quit a case of beer per night (plus other assorted goodies) - cold turkey. When I set my mind to something - it's done. I've been less and less enamored with college basketball the past several years and this would be the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. I hope it's not the case - but I'm right there on the edge.

I would hate to see that... my friend!

Join me in the upcoming battle. The battle to turn KU into the first heavy-duty developmental team in America!

Receiving a swift kick in the teeth from the NCAA might even help us get this rolling!

We need to be done with the prima donna players, once and for all! We need NONE of that business. Enough of the fool's gold!

We need coaches that know how to coach. Our assistants are recruiters and babysitters. I like our entire staff, but we need wholesale changes for what I'm talking about.

Just imagine seeing players playing the game the way it was intended. Imagine seeing players get out there and scrap their arses off! Imagine players knowing how to seal the boards, pop out over screens, hedge properly, and hustle like their life depended on it! Imagine March coming around and we go on a slaughter of teams full of high draft picks. Imagine being in the hunt every single year! Imagine 4 and 5 year players that really produce.

It's all there just waiting for the right program to see it. Jay Wright sees it. We are positioned better than him. I'd rather be Kansas than Nova.

@drgnslayr Copy and Paste!

@HighEliteMajor

Overreaching? No.

Selective prosecution? Without a doubt.

I keep coming back to this - If everyone is doing it, then everyone knows, that everyone includes Bill Self, and thus Bill Self has blatantly lied. The everyone could be a limited definition, say just the top 15ish programs. Or a broad definition. Doesn't matter. We're part of "everyone" as a top program. "Doing it" would be the shoeco folks (Nike, Adidas, UA) providing benefits for kids to attend certain schools.

But if everyone isn't doing it, then we're still left with allegations that no one is really denying -- we're only suggesting that we shouldn't be punished for the allegations related to Gassnola/Adidas.

What am I missing here?

If those are the two choices, neither choice seems to end well.

How is it not a choice between the two.

Everyone's doing it.
Selective prosecution.
Nobody wants to see how the sausage is made.

I've been watching more NBA the last few years. The key is to watch the games and ignore ALL off the court stuff.

The overwhelming fact is: the NCAA had absolutely zero choice after the FBI investigation broke. No choice at all… To save the last tiny sliver of their legitimacy and “integrity “they had no choice. As far as the explosion of money in college athletics, the train has left the station long long ago and as KCMatt has said, it is way too late to bring the train back. The NCAA needed to figure out a better more effective way to address this a long time ago in order to have any hope at all of keeping it in check. Sadly Adidas, far behind Nike, went and got the Watergate burglars in Gatto and Gassnola and the rest, and they got busted.

KU Unequivocably should fight this to the bitter end and with every resource they have.

We all know that despite the inevitable evolution of college athletics and the obscene amount of money that is now involved, Kansas basketball is bigger than all of this. Kansas basketball is a unique program, and it is bigger than this investigation, it is bigger than Bill Self, it is bigger than Adidas. We all understand this because of all the years we watched many senior nights, read Landon Lucas’s article about the true depth of the specialness of KU nation, countless examples of what is awesomely magical about The storied program of Kansas basketball. We will get through this. And who knows what we will find at the end of this journey. In all honesty, I am optimistic.
Rock chalk

@drgnslayr You're a good cheerleader!

@justanotherfan

I don't think Self loses his job but its too early to say its not a possibility either. I believe he has the support of the AD however what about the support (as @HighEliteMajor) mentions from the Chancellor & Board of Regents. It's too early to tell what position they may fall on and what interests they may have to protect for the greater good of the program when this is all over.

There was a Giant Red Flag hanging over Billy Preston's head for most of his High School career and they still signed him. Gassnola was a known fraud and a high liability to have around the program. These are decisions that have come back to bite them now.

I question why any of our coaches held conversations with any shoecos directly. How can that be viewed as anything but negative. It puts into question our argument that we did everything possible to stay clear from corruption. I addressed the optics here. Now on to the content. Prosecution should involve more than speculation. If speculation prosecutes then Duke is guilty for signing Zion... another recruit that seems to help paint a negative portrait of Kansas.

HighEliteMajor said:

I keep coming back to this - If everyone is doing it, then everyone knows, that everyone includes Bill Self, and thus Bill Self has blatantly lied. The everyone could be a limited definition, say just the top 15ish programs. Or a broad definition. Doesn't matter. We're part of "everyone" as a top program. "Doing it" would be the shoeco folks (Nike, Adidas, UA) providing benefits for kids to attend certain schools.

But if everyone isn't doing it, then we're still left with allegations that no one is really denying -- we're only suggesting that we shouldn't be punished for the allegations related to Gassnola/Adidas.

What am I missing here?

If those are the two choices, neither choice seems to end well.

How is it not a choice between the two.

I don't give a rat's ass if EVERYONE is doing it theory - - I only care about KU. - -so if everyone was to step o a land mine - -does that mean we should step on one too? - - lmao - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@drgnslayr You just asked the question of the day. It can't be viewed as anything but negative.

One major point that I think we have not discussed is the process here. This is a private organization. They have internal rules. We are now guilty. Meaning, when the NCAA gives out a NOA, that means they've found you guilty based on what they have. The school is then placed in the position of having to prove its innocence, or mitigate the conclusions with other information (thus to my prior points about internal investigations, transparency, reports, acknowledgement -- this should include remedial action, and how we handle it once we get the info). So we're not in a position where the NCAA has to prove anything. They have their info.

And this is what I was trying to get across to one poster in particular prior to this coming out. There is a wealth of info. See the NOA. It's very easy to connect the dots. That's all the NCAA has to do. And stuff we didn't know (or didn't consider). Like Larry Brown. I didn't really think of that. But it's more wood on the pile.

The issue is the treatment of Shoecos. Isn't that really it? Without the linkage (booster designation) between the Shoeco action and KU/Self, this is viewed much differently.

That's where we're in trouble though. The NCAA is linking this. They are saying we're one in the same. It's no different than the guy driving the get away car when his partner kills someone in the bank during a robbery -- the get away driver still gets charged with murder.

What's a cruel twist of logic is that the prosecutors said KU was a victim of Adidas. Now we're the co-conspirator. The private organization is not bound by prosecutorial logic. Even with that, one could argue that Self and the staff were acting against the interests of the monolithic university. But we have talked about all of that here before -- the discussions of how Self could get charged. I mean if he was a co-conspirator with Gassnola/Adidas, as the NCAA seems to conclude here, it would seem the prosecutor could conclude the same thing.

As @drgnslayr correctly points out -- why in God's name was Self texting with this guy? Texting? I guess that's how it works at UNC and Duke. Creating a paper trail, electronic of course. I cannot even image what the failed phone call wiretap would have revealed. I'm sure someone here could have hooked Self up with one of those texting apps.

As @BeddieKU23 said, Gassnola was known fraud. We now know what others knew about him before all of this. And Self was texting with him. About recruits and Gassnola's involvement.

This is connect the dots. It is really easy to do. The NCAA felt it was easy too. And they don't have to do much more. That stinks for us.

How Fortuitus for Arizona, LSU, Louisville among others. Carry on.

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/27695213/ncaa-suspends-deadlines-corruption-cases ↗

BeddieKU23 said:

How Fortuitus for Arizona, LSU, Louisville among others. Carry on.

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/27695213/ncaa-suspends-deadlines-corruption-cases ↗

What a crock.

Well, would this not indicate that KU is now NOT under a 90 day deadline to reply?

The NCAA is suspending its deadlines for schools to respond to charges levied by the governing body in the wake of college basketball's corruption scandal. In a letter obtained by The Associated Press in a public-records request, infractions committee member Carol Cartwright wrote NCAA vice president of enforcement Jon Duncan last week to say the committee "will not act" on cases until Nov. 20. She also wrote that all "briefing deadlines" are on hold during that time, such as the 90 days schools or individuals have to respond to charges outlined in a Notice of Allegations (NOA). NC State and Kansas both face discipline from the NCAA after being named in a federal criminal case involving improper payments to recruits and their families, which grew out of an FBI investigation into apparel company Adidas. Sources have told ESPN that NCAA investigations are also underway at Arizona, Auburn, Creighton, Louisville, LSU and USC.

The way I read that is it does in fact put a pause on everything including the 90 days KU has to respond.

This is classic NCAA. They over reached here and KU smacked them back and they were not ready for it. Now they have to suspend everything so they can get caught up and get ready for all out blood bath KU is about to unleash.

rockchalkwyo said:

@Crimsonorblue22 here’s a link found in a comment. How reputable is it?
https://www.oregonlive.com/business/page/the_loyalty_game.html ↗

Extremely. This is the "water" that all the institutions are swimming in. Amateurism in high dollar college sports is dead. Long live amateurism. And like the piece @jayballer73 mentioned (link: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/01/11/96-division-i-colleges-violated-major-ncaa-rules-last-decade) ↗ it's pretty clear that most, if not every single institution in the P5 is playing with fire. 56 of the 128 P5 members has had a major violation in the past decade. Like I've said, this isn't just pervasive, it's the norm. The NCAA can't keep a lid on it, even when they try. They keep punishing schools yet the schools keep doing it. Maybe the underlying model is what's broken?

Call me lazy, but "lack of institutional control" is that not what Roy Williams was charged with some years ago at UNC? And they received squat.

"Institutional control?" Aren't we talking about Self and Townsend? Isn't that "personal control?" I say that because it looks like we've exhibited very good institutional control. Billy and Silvio, both, were pulled off the court at the first sniff of trouble.

I mention this because it seems like if we receive penalties, it should be directed more towards the persons, and not the institution and the current players. Let's not forget we have a model compliance program that has been copied all over the country. So the reputation of our university and compliance program need to be drug down in the mud?

This reminds me of the initial Silvio punishment. Punish him for his guardian's actions.

Might we consider this to be where the line is drawn in the sand between Self and Kansas. Just how far are we willing to get behind Bill?

HighEliteMajor said:

I'm trying to be respectful here. But you don't understand what qualifies as proof. You seem to think there has to be a video, or a document that "convicts."

So the perspective is considered, folks go to jail based on eyewitness testimony. The go to jail based on circumstantial evidence. You need to get past the opinion that there is no evidence.

For example -

TJ Gassnola testified under oath in a federal trial that he provided money to Preston and SDS. Testimony under oath is "proof." Maybe not what you feel sufficient, but certainly sufficient in a court of law (and the low end stuff like NCAA enforcement). His level of credibility is extremely high because 1) Federal prosecutors put him on the stand in a high profile case, and 2) they would have vetted his claims related to his plea deal. Not to mention that his testimony helped lead to convictions, and his own actions led to a plea. KU presumably says they had no knowledge of it. So KU can't deny it. KU undeniably sought Adidas' help and intervention with recruits. The texting demonstrates that on its on, but that part isn't denied anyway. Thus those actors, whom KU solicited for help, broke NCAA rules assisting KU in recruiting.

You also seem to think that because others are corrupt, KU can't be punished. Don't you think others have tutors that do the work for players like MU did? Or that booster give money to recruits like happened with BYU? They got punished, right?

The NCAA, like law enforcement, can only act on the info they have. Meaning, sure, others may be smuggling drugs but they don't defer punishing those they catch because others are doing the same thing and not getting caught.

If you refuse to acknowledge or understand the above, I can't help you.

As we sit here, we don't know what the NCAA will do. I hope you're right on the punishment. I fear a bad result. But I hope other factors weigh here and the NCAA wimps out (selfishly). I've felt from the start that if we get hammered, we should "burn it down." That is, give the NCAA all the info we know on other schools, etc. Who knows, that might be going on behind closed doors. I would certainly, if I were KU, consider that negotiating strategy in advance to get a slap on the wrist.

I hear your every point, and - whatever the case may be the MCAA needs to weap

You are preaching to the choir, my man. I haven't been to confession in years, and really don't want to go.

Was listening to Matt Norlander and Dennis Dodd doing an interview off CBS - -mercy they are painting a very possible ugly picture.

Was talking about a lot of other College Coach's asking about KU - -behind the scenes wanting to know when this crap was coming down on us - - a lot of People waiting to see what is going to happen to Arizona. - - Yet they say they think Arizona is in that next tier , nothing happening with them till some time in 2020.

just kept talking about how KU was in some serious trouble , talking about Coach Townsend0 , Dodd talking about how he really doesn't expect to see anything really happen this Season with KU - - it will be next Season - -doesn't think there will be any post season ban - - THIS YEAR. - -sure sounds like Townsend could be gone.

Talks about how the NCAA could come to KU and say ok , these are your violations - - what are you going to do about them , he said He doesn't think it will happen but Coach Self could be banned/suspended for TWO seasons - - other things they think can quite possibly happen and very likely will is vacating the 2018 final 4 because of DeSousa playing against Villanova -- & also vacating the 2018 Big 12 title - - Coach Self looking at suspension for 2020 - - and possible post season ban in 2020

Other thing they said which we all ready know and that was that this is just going to destroy KU recruiting - the longer this lingers , because recruits not knowing how this is going to effect the season - - -and they don't think we will know anything this year - -that it will be in 2020 - -because KU has 90 days for rebuttal and then the NCAA has 60 days to answer or whatever KU'S rebuttal

Guys this is going to be a REAL CHALLENGE - - emotionally and physically on people, gonna drain all ya got - -we need to be very aware this thing very easily could get really - - really ugly - - Coach Self will find bodies - - 4 year very developmental type more likely then not - - this is going to be a time when the rest of the Big 12 will realize now is the time to Kick KU'S ass because let's face it - - were going to be down - -other schools gonna thrive on this crap - - Coach Self will get players - - - might be the type of Topeka YMCA players he talked about that year when we got beaten by whoever the hell it was and he was so PO'D - - - -gonna be some Juco's - - maybe Grad transfers - - basically when all said and done , gonna be a player that has that frame of mind that he will come play for a HOF Coach no matter for the chance for this staff to develop them - - dark times ahead guys whether we are wanting to acknowledge or not.

And for the one's that are just trying to laugh/brush this off - - thinking were just gonna get a slap on the wrist? - - umm ya you keep right on thinking that , and then let me have some of that shit you been smoking - -main time it's time for you to put the pipe down and slowly back away - -it's coming - -it's just a matter of when - - you think slap of the wrist - - it's more like getting those shots yanked down and getting that ass whupped NCAA whupping - - get ready - - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

Meanwhile, North Carolina landed a commitment from five-star center Walker Kessler on Sunday night.

NCAA: No Academic Violations at UNC
Ruling comes despite university’s finding that many athletes were for years enrolled in and passed courses they did not attend and that were not taught by anyone.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/10/16/breaking-ncaa-finds-no-academic-fraud-unc ↗

I don't buy into the "everyone else is doing it" excuse either but doesn't it seem that the NCAA has always had double standards? Some schools seem immune to NCAA violations.

@jhawk7782

What if I told you Kessler was the 2nd 5 star big man they have gotten this class. Nothing to see. Will shortly add their 3rd 5 star in Caleb Love (a once KU target)

@BeddieKU23 I don't see how Bill Self can go on the recruiting trail until the NCAA makes a ruling. Too many uncertainties. Hopefully, this doesn't become a prolonged fight in the courts.

Anyone know case law precedent on a victim being tried as a perpetrator of the crime for which they were exonerated?

I understand that the NCAA is not a court and therefore not beholden to double jeopardy laws, etc. Just curious if there's some place where this has happened.

Also - really curious about the definition of a booster. If what I've read is true -- that the NCAA suggests that it is anyone who influences (payment or not) an athlete toward a school (or schools), then that seems unenforceable. And indeed, this goes on everywhere and has been going on forever.

bskeet said:

Anyone know case law precedent on a victim being tried as a perpetrator of the crime for which they were exonerated?

Marco said:

HighEliteMajor said:

I'm trying to be respectful here. But you don't understand what qualifies as proof. You seem to think there has to be a video, or a document that "convicts."

So the perspective is considered, folks go to jail based on eyewitness testimony. The go to jail based on circumstantial evidence. You need to get past the opinion that there is no evidence.

For example -

TJ Gassnola testified under oath in a federal trial that he provided money to Preston and SDS. Testimony under oath is "proof." Maybe not what you feel sufficient, but certainly sufficient in a court of law (and the low end stuff like NCAA enforcement). His level of credibility is extremely high because 1) Federal prosecutors put him on the stand in a high profile case, and 2) they would have vetted his claims related to his plea deal. Not to mention that his testimony helped lead to convictions, and his own actions led to a plea. KU presumably says they had no knowledge of it. So KU can't deny it. KU undeniably sought Adidas' help and intervention with recruits. The texting demonstrates that on its on, but that part isn't denied anyway. Thus those actors, whom KU solicited for help, broke NCAA rules assisting KU in recruiting.

You also seem to think that because others are corrupt, KU can't be punished. Don't you think others have tutors that do the work for players like MU did? Or that booster give money to recruits like happened with BYU? They got punished, right?

The NCAA, like law enforcement, can only act on the info they have. Meaning, sure, others may be smuggling drugs but they don't defer punishing those they catch because others are doing the same thing and not getting caught.

If you refuse to acknowledge or understand the above, I can't help you.

As we sit here, we don't know what the NCAA will do. I hope you're right on the punishment. I fear a bad result. But I hope other factors weigh here and the NCAA wimps out (selfishly). I've felt from the start that if we get hammered, we should "burn it down." That is, give the NCAA all the info we know on other schools, etc. Who knows, that might be going on behind closed doors. I would certainly, if I were KU, consider that negotiating strategy in advance to get a slap on the wrist.

I hear your every point, and - whatever the case may be the MCAA needs to weap

You are preaching to the choir, my man. I haven't been to confession in years, and really don't want to go.

I'm glad you're now part of the choir because you were quite clear in your thoughts that the NCAA had nothing, not a "shred" of proof, "hearsay and innuendo", etc. Anyway, this sucks for all of us.

@Woodrow I hope it is an all out bloodbath.

If KU is "innocent", then we need to fight to protect that. I see it playing out in court something like this:

NCAA Weasel: We use words like "honor," "code," "loyalty." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it.

I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand the post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think you're entitled to!

KU Lawyers: Did you order the Code Red?

NCAA Weasel: I did the job --

KU Lawyers: -- Did you order the Code Red?!

NCAA Weasel: YOU'RE GOD DAMN RIGHT I DID!!!
(Borrowed and slightly altered from "A Few Good Men")

Summary: KU and Self are cleared of the charges, but found guilty of "conduct unbecoming" and ordered to be dishonorably discharged. (Vacate a couple of exhibition games)

@nuleafjhawk I love this!!

jhawk7782 said:

Meanwhile, North Carolina landed a commitment from five-star center Walker Kessler on Sunday night.

NCAA: No Academic Violations at UNC
Ruling comes despite university’s finding that many athletes were for years enrolled in and passed courses they did not attend and that were not taught by anyone.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/10/16/breaking-ncaa-finds-no-academic-fraud-unc ↗

I don't buy into the "everyone else is doing it" excuse either but doesn't it seem that the NCAA has always had double standards? Some schools seem immune to NCAA violations.

For the MILLIONTH time. The NCAA can not do ANYTHING about classes that a college accredits and offers to all students. UNC cheapened it's university for sports, but not illegal.

jhawk7782 said:

Meanwhile, North Carolina landed a commitment from five-star center Walker Kessler on Sunday night.

NCAA: No Academic Violations at UNC
Ruling comes despite university’s finding that many athletes were for years enrolled in and passed courses they did not attend and that were not taught by anyone.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/10/16/breaking-ncaa-finds-no-academic-fraud-unc ↗

I don't buy into the "everyone else is doing it" excuse either but doesn't it seem that the NCAA has always had double standards? Some schools seem immune to NCAA violations.

Here is your case for lack of institutional control. Here is your case proving institutional involvement! And just because the class is offered to non-athletes doesn't excuse the AD from staying on top of their athletes' classes. They should have realized these courses were not legit.

jhawk7782 said:

@BeddieKU23 I don't see how Bill Self can go on the recruiting trail until the NCAA makes a ruling. Too many uncertainties. Hopefully, this doesn't become a prolonged fight in the courts.

I think he will continue to recruit as normal. He may go into situations knowing the result but I think you have to keep on it, especially with the future classes. Most programs have recovered quickly from the pits. Louisville and UNC are prime examples of that and their situations were a lot worse then this.

It will be interesting to see which route KU goes. How far does KU want to dig its feet into the sand and fight? To fight the booster designation placed on Gassnola it may require going to court.

Self will need legal counsel to fight the allegations against him separately since the penalties can result in a show-cause or termination.

I see where Georgia Tech was banned from the 2019/2020 post season for "impermissable benefits". A booster (former friend of Josh Pastner) provided money to recruits at a Gentleman's Club. Now, THAT'S a booster!

🐦 View Tweet?s=20

Duke did their investigation Hillary Clinton style

@rockchalkwyo Please, no.

The NCAA is so mad Wendell Carter went to dook they had to hammer Georgia Tech

Cry me a river, Emmert. Apparently just allowing student atheltes to profit off their likeness is a bigger threat to college sports than systematic coverups of sexual assault (even against kids), academic fraud, coaches going to prison for bribery, etc. etc. etc. https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/ncaa-prez-calls-name-image-and-likeness-rights-an-existential-threat-to-college-sports/ ↗

Too complex to manage? Give me a break. If it's that difficult, maybe let someone else run the show.

The good ol boys club will never stop to amaze

FarmerJayhawk said:

Cry me a river, Emmert. Apparently just allowing student atheltes to profit off their likeness is a bigger threat to college sports than systematic coverups of sexual assault (even against kids), academic fraud, coaches going to prison for bribery, etc. etc. etc. https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/ncaa-prez-calls-name-image-and-likeness-rights-an-existential-threat-to-college-sports/ ↗

Too complex to manage? Give me a break. If it's that difficult, maybe let someone else run the show.

Also though, according to his own words, only like one or two players each year would make any money.

@Kcmatt7

He is so out of touch with reality he is the perfect sham for the job for them

Kcmatt7 said:

FarmerJayhawk said:

Cry me a river, Emmert. Apparently just allowing student atheltes to profit off their likeness is a bigger threat to college sports than systematic coverups of sexual assault (even against kids), academic fraud, coaches going to prison for bribery, etc. etc. etc. https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/ncaa-prez-calls-name-image-and-likeness-rights-an-existential-threat-to-college-sports/ ↗

Too complex to manage? Give me a break. If it's that difficult, maybe let someone else run the show.

Also though, according to his own words, only like one or two players each year would make any money.

In his eyes only the NCAA can make money off college athletes. Oh, and himself. To the tune of $3 million last year. Money for me but not for thee.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/the-ncaa-wants-to-wait-before-punishing-or-charging-any-more-schools-named-in-fbi-probe/ ↗

If this doesn't make you want to blow your brains out... Literally the only schools with notices so far are Adidas schools. With, and you can't make this shit up, Auburn, Arizona and Oklahoma State (schools who had coaches convicted in this probe) not expected to see any allegations until 2020 at the earliest.

Sorry, but I think that we are going to get hit hard, the NCAA is trying to find a blue blood school that they can make an example out of, and we just happened to be the one. They will never go after one of the blue bloods that are sponsored by Nike ( North Carolina, Duke, or Kentucky ). Really sad...

By the way - this is all my fault. I made a snide remark a while back that we should 86 the basketball program and concentrate all our efforts on football. The NCAA is helping me accomplish that. Sorry.

Kcmatt7 said:

FarmerJayhawk said:

Cry me a river, Emmert. Apparently just allowing student atheltes to profit off their likeness is a bigger threat to college sports than systematic coverups of sexual assault (even against kids), academic fraud, coaches going to prison for bribery, etc. etc. etc. https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/ncaa-prez-calls-name-image-and-likeness-rights-an-existential-threat-to-college-sports/ ↗

Too complex to manage? Give me a break. If it's that difficult, maybe let someone else run the show.

Also though, according to his own words, only like one or two players each year would make any money.

By Emmert's own admission, only a few players will actually make any significant money. So, I wonder what's the NCAA's big concern if almost every player makes insignificant money? They seem to downplay the importance of this while at the same time calling it an existential threat. Which is it?

But, if the NCAA is unable to manage in a world where states make their own legislation, then wouldn't that mean the NCAA is lacking in requisite institutional oversight?

That sounds like a familiar tune.

Jeff Long already on the defense.

"I can really kind of repeat what we said in our statement," Long began on the show. "You know, we simply disagree with the facts as the NCAA believes them to be. We see the facts that they have. We arrive at a very different conclusion then they do. We support coach [Bill] Self. We believe in the way he runs our program and the way our coaches conduct our program. So we now have our 90 days to provide a response to each one of those seven allegations. We are very well prepared to do that."

"We will provide a very substantial response to those allegations, and I do think in the end that we will be successful in defending ourselves, defending our reputation and defending our actions," Long said. "So our fans will have to be patient with us because we're going to be in this period of time when we can't talk about details. Bill Self is going to be asked at every press conference he's at. Bill Self won't be able to comment on those things. We've got to let the process play its way out. We've said what we can say and the NCAA actually has a rule against us speaking out publicly so if we're not careful we could have another violation and we're not going to do that. So be patient."

"During this time, you know, people will be saying a lot of things about Kansas, but I hope our Kansas fans know we run our program with honesty and integrity and each and every one of you can be proud with how we conduct our program, the student athletes in our program," Long said. "I assure you that if we've made mistakes, we'll correct them and move on. But I guarantee you we're running our program the right way."

@BeddieKU23 The last two sentences were the most important.

1. “I assure you that if we've made mistakes, we'll correct them and move on.” — This is the FIRST acknowledgment of any possible wrongdoing I have seen. Has anyone seen anything else? A KU official mentioning “mistakes.”

2. “But I guarantee you we're running our program the right way." — This is present tense, not past tense. I think that is significant.

I also saw the words “honesty and integrity” used together again. Not sure we’ll ever know what he means by that. Except that he used the words "we" -- that includes him (Long), and did not use past tense.

Out of curiosity would you (anyone) buy a product that a player is hocking out of a KU uniform? I assume they can’t show a Jayhawk in the advertisement, so how recognizable are they outside of the local market? Other than Jayhawks, I’d recognize the QB from Clemson out of uniform, but not many other kids. Am I the minority?

@dylans You wouldn't recognize him if he got a haircut. Sunshine.....

@dylans I don't think you're in the minority. I don't think a player's image without the uniform would be all that marketable so I'm not sure this would be that much of a windfall.

The ones that are marketable should go pro. "College" sports are done. Let them all go pro so in twenty years we can listen to the same media cry about all the ex-players with no money and no education.

@dylans @bcjayhawk Bingo. This is what I've been focused on (among other things) for quite some time. It is the jersey, the uniform, the school, the program, and everything that goes with it that makes CBB and CFB what it is. Otherwise, they're A, AA and AAA baseball players (but for just a few). The colleges are the marketable product. THE PLAYERS ARE INTERCHANGEABLE AT THIS LEVEL.

But we know what will happen. If they do this "marketing of their image", it will be so unfair that the players can't use the colleges' images (logo, etc). They'll complain about that.

Of course, it creates yet another massive enforcement headache and will change the college sports, lurching college sports further away from what we love.

The NCAA needs to set forth specific reasons and ways a player can earn extra money that may not have been permissable before. Letting a kid do an autograph signing somewhere and putting a cap on number of appearances, time, and price they can be there. Allowing players to auction off jersey's and putting a cap on how much a player can make up front and putting the rest in a trust that can only be accessed once the player runs out of eligibility whether that's because they turned pro or graduated. If they drop and do neither and have eligibility because of that, they can't touch the money. Allowing EA Sports to make NCAA video games again and giving each player $500-1000 similar to a class action settlement. Make that moment be based off of projected sales.

Some of these ideas would need to be fleshed out more and given more specific details or tweaked, but these are simple ideas that cause a lot of issues for programs when they come to light that really should be changed by the NCAA.

@Texas-Hawk-10 If you're going that route, you're right. But everyone who supports this concept should really rethink it. More rules. More enforcement. Enforcement is much, much tougher as there are shades of grey -- meaning as you move from nothing to something.

But really, the "why not" is easier than just more rules -- the same folks that want this will always want more. Some simple, common sense rules as mentioned above won't be good enough. It will never stop. WE KNOW THAT. The rules set by the NCAA will always be unjust to those with that mindset. "Look at what the NCAA brings in" will always be the mantra. Profiting off the athlete be continue to cause incessant whining (no matter how illogical). The revenue point will always be way too high for some, compared to what the athlete (student-athlete) receives.

Many folks want the CBB and CFB model destroyed. So it will never be enough.

The easiest and better thing to do is just say no. Nothing. Period. This is the gamble the NCAA needs to take. Nothing. Don't come. Don't play.

And guess what? They'll still come. And they'll still play.

The thing is, the market would be mostly local.

Other than Mahomes, Kelce and maybe a couple of others, how many Chiefs players would you recognize out of uniform? How many Royals other than Gordon, Perez and Merrifield? How many Sporting KC guys?

But there are pros in local ads all the time even though I guarantee most people wouldn't recognize Sammy Watkins or Danny Duffy outside the KC area. This would allow them to advertise for the local car dealership or whatever. They could sign and sell autographs. That's about it.

HighEliteMajor said:

@dylans @bcjayhawk Bingo. This is what I've been focused on (among other things) for quite some time. It is the jersey, the uniform, the school, the program, and everything that goes with it that makes CBB and CFB what it is. Otherwise, they're A, AA and AAA baseball players (but for just a few). The colleges are the marketable product. THE PLAYERS ARE INTERCHANGEABLE AT THIS LEVEL.

But we know what will happen. If they do this "marketing of their image", it will be so unfair that the players can't use the colleges' images (logo, etc). They'll complain about that.

Of course, it creates yet another massive enforcement headache and will change the college sports, lurching college sports further away from what we love.

I'll buy in to the point that the college has a brand, but I have to disagree with suggestion that the players are interchangeable. If they were interchangeable, then why do we get so worked up about recruits? I don't think it's a common belief that Zion was interchangeable nor unrecognizable.

There are plenty of players that fans would recognize in plain clothes when they were playing at KU -- Frank Mason, Andrew Wiggins are the most obvious.. and I think Doke would be pretty easy to recognize in pretty much any crowded room.

Also, I think every Iowa State fan could have recognized Elijah Johnson during his senior year.

@bskeet I think they are totally interchangeable. They have to be. Every 5 years it’s total turnover. Every year has a new 1 recruit. Every year has 40-50 guys getting drafted. Every year a kid gets hyped up. Every 5-10 years you get a Zion/Wiggins/LeBron level of hype. Every year KU has a nearly full roster after losing guys.

I don’t watch much sports avidly anymore, but quiz me on 90s baseball players and I’m ok. I don’t watch much NBA, but of the nearly 500 nba players I could recognize around 40 guys. Of the 4500 ncaa basketball players I’d be lucky to recognize 5 non-KU players. NFL guys are kinda screwed playing behind a helmet. Names sure, faces no way. Same for ncaa football. I’d recognize one guy this season (so far) - no KU players.

That’s another thing about ncaa basketball. The coaches are the most recognizable and stable things. Therefore the most marketable. I don’t think this creates much legit income (I may be wrong) but I do think it creates an oversight nightmare. It’s already pretty easy to pay recruits (unless you’re a dumbass adidas guy) this will be the Wild West. I’m kinda excited, KU is one of the big boys, it’s the little guys that will be absolutely screwed. I mean the competitive imbalance will be ridiculous. 14 in a row will be a short streak under those rules. Bring it!

dylans said:

@bskeet I think they are totally interchangeable. They have to be. Every 5 years it’s total turnover. Every year has a new 1 recruit. Every year has 40-50 guys getting drafted. Every year a kid gets hyped up. Every 5-10 years you get a Zion/Wiggins/LeBron level of hype. Every year KU has a nearly full roster after losing guys.

Right. It’s proven already that the parts are interchangeable. That’s the system as it exists. Constant roster turnover.

@BSkeet I don’t suggest players are unrecognizable, just interchangeable. From Collins, to TT, to EJ, to Tharpe, to Mason, to Graham, to Dotson. 10 seasons, seven PGs. There are better players in the D-league. But no packed arenas, no massive team gear sales, no big TV contracts, no sports center highlights, etc.

Just popping in to say, yes, college bb players ARE interchangeable over a period of years. But they are individuals well recognized by their fan bases in the one to four years they attend their schools. Those are the years available.

Whether another athlete comes along to replace or even exceed them after they leave, is irrelevant to the years in which they could earn a little money.

@HighEliteMajor The issue at hand and why people are pushing for rules changes are because the NCAA either cannot or will not enforce their own rules fairly.

Having the NCAA meet with representatives from every level of member schools from P5, mid major conferences, FCS, D2, and D3 schools to come up with a system that the NCAA is capable of enforcing fairly across the board is something that needs to happen.

The fact is the current system is broken and your suggestion to do nothing doesn't fix a broken system. It doesn't have to be radical changes, but there do need to be changes made so the NCAA can enforce their rules.

Texas Hawk 10 said:

@HighEliteMajor The issue at hand and why people are pushing for rules changes are because the NCAA either cannot or will not enforce their own rules fairly.

Having the NCAA meet with representatives from every level of member schools from P5, mid major conferences, FCS, D2, and D3 schools to come up with a system that the NCAA is capable of enforcing fairly across the board is something that needs to happen.

The fact is the current system is broken and your suggestion to do nothing doesn't fix a broken system. It doesn't have to be radical changes, but there do need to be changes made so the NCAA can enforce their rules.

No, that’s not “why.” The reason why is some folks want athletes to be paid. That is the constant drum beat.

My suggestion to do nothing relates to the idiotic path of compensation and permitting players to market themselves. The players deserve nothing, zero, beyond their scholarship and related benefits. This is different than the issue of enforcement (other than it will create more of an enforcement nightmare).

You switched topics. Your first post, the one I replied to, was related to permitting players to market themselves. Your post said nothing about "enforcement." You then, in your response to my reply here, get into the claim that the NCAA doesn’t enforce their rules fairly.

And of course we break the rules, lie about it, and we of course need to revamp enforcement (because we're targeted). How about we run a clean program?

I couldn't agree more then with California for what they are doing. - It's about time, no one is saying paying these kids any kind of insane amount is what it's about , but why shouldn't they be paid SOMETHING? - No I don't want to hear any lame excuse WELL they're getting a free ride - -take that somewhere else, your not convincing me that a Scholarship comes even remotely close to what the Universities make off these kids - I call Bull shit on that. - so don't go there

Why shouldn't they be paid something? - I mean this is their future , this is a job to them just like all the upper crust zoot suits - -stuffed shirts - those get paid quite nicely for a job - - THIS is these kids future , they are playing for their future/possible job - -every time they step on the court - it's an interview for possible future employment - -it's not all just fun and games for these guys.

They go out they play hard -just like people or most work hard trying to make a living - -these guys are trying to make a living in the future - -Why shouldn't they be paid as it says to earn a wage while they are in School that's fair to the amount of profit that the Universities make of them - - -or again like it says this becomes and equality issue why can't they get something - -some kind of money, Hell your Coach's making their annual Salary and then on top of that goes out and does numerous endorsements and makes even MORE money on top of that - - but that's ok right? - - bullshit - the hell it is. - -California - - - Good for you - -about time someone does something

https://money.cnn.com/2015/09/04/news/companies/extra-cash-college-athletes/index.html ↗

🤔

This discussion (nationally) seems to be more emotional and political than logical.

So what’s that b-ball scholarship worth? - roughly 20k+ per year in tuition, books, room and board. - 5k+ in stipends - free apparel - free marketing of the player as well. What does the money generated go to? Not the b-ball players, but the minor sports - tennis, baseball, lacrosse, soccer, anything women’s sports. Every one of these loses money and is supported by football and basketball, not to mention the money losing women’s programs have to exist due to title 9 stuff; you can’t cut them. You’ve got to have 50+ women’s scholarships (and programs and associated expenses) to balance out the football scholarships.

Letting kids earn from their likeness will not increase school debt, but will be an oversight nightmare. It will widen the gap between the haves and the have nots. (I’m kinda ok with this unfair advantage, KU is in the have group). It’ll also make the disparity between men’s and women’s sports even more apparent.

I'm so through with all this political crap - I don't even watch the news because I can't stand politics (all bad), news (all bad), weather - 90% bad with a 50% chance of intermittent good (i know the math doesn't work out - that's true weather math) and now sports. Used to be you could watch sports and be entertained. See some great games, watch some incredible highlights - now it's just all CRAP.

My boat and fishing poles will be getting a much greater workout in the years to come.

mayjay said:

Just popping in to say, yes, college bb players ARE interchangeable over a period of years. But they are individuals well recognized by their fan bases in the one to four years they attend their schools. Those are the years available.

Whether another athlete comes along to replace or even exceed them after they leave, is irrelevant to the years in which they could earn a little money.

Right- I go with this definition of interchangeable... You captured my thinking better than I did...

By that definition we are all special and unique like a snowflake. It also makes us all the same and completely interchangeable.

If none of the former KU players came to Kansas, I’d remember those who did in their place. The coaches make the programs not the players.

I'm no expert on the pros and cons of allowing students to profit from their image and likeness, but one of the more compelling arguments I've heard is that every citizen has this right, and that the NCAA's rule is stripping a group of people from this basic right.

I've heard two very impassioned arguments about how this will 1) transform women athletes and bring much greater notoriety to them, and 2) destroy women's athletics and undo title IX.. Essentially completely opposite projections on the impact. My conclusion: No one can predict what the benefits and consequences of this will really be.

My other conclusion as to why the NCAA is really fighting this: Status quo and the ability to better control what is known.

Players are not interchangeable.

They do add value.

What they should be compensated is a scholarship that offers them the tools and platform to succeed. That is payment enough from the schools. I can agree to that.

I also believe they should have the ability to go profit off of their likeness.

Yes, the schools brand means a ton. But the brand is also effected by the players playing for that school. It is silly to think otherwise. How much goodwill did the VCU brand gain from going to the Final Four? How about George Mason? Wichita State? Wichita State is now in a new conference making significantly more money because of Baker, VanVleet and Early. Those guys were freaking rockstars in Wichita, KS. They would have made a pretty penny, and it would have only been a fraction of what they gifted to the university.

The 2007 Orange Bowl team, how much extra value did they create over a what used to be a somewhat typical 5-7 KU team? Millions I'd guess.

What happens to the endowment after KU makes a FF? What happens to the attendance? They increase. Which is adding value to the university.

The flip side of that is the cost of having a crappy team. Look how hard it was for KU to raise money for the football program. Look at Arkansas University attendance numbers now that they've sucked for so many years at football. What is the brand damage to Arkansas right now? KU Football's brand has been demolished. Making it harder to get good players, players who would add value. How you can say players are interchangeable knowing the cost vs the gain of a good team?

Of course the players would not be marketable without the school's brand giving them the platform to become marketable. I do understand this. But the school's brand suffers as well without having quality players. It does work both ways. This is very, very evident.

This is why I believe that players should be allowed to profit off of their likeness. Those who would make money are the ones who add value over those who truly are "interchangeable." Would you want their autograph if they played for the Kansas City Jay Birds? No. But you also wouldn't be wasting your time watching if KU was consistently terrible. You wouldn't be paying for Matt Kleinman's autograph, but I literally have paid for a signed Brandon Rush basketball that is sitting right next to me as I type this.

Players simply are not interchangeable. I do agree that Coaches are very important. But Nick Saban is not going to a National Championship with KU's roster. And Les Miles could probably get to the playoffs with a roster like Alabama's. That gap in talent is player added value. That gap is worth tens of millions of dollars a season. That gap is what helps to create or destroy brand value.

Realizing this, I find it to be very, very clear that players are worth far more than just what their current "earnings" are. Allowing them to go cash in on some of that value, while they have it (and yes that is partially due to using the school's brand), seems like the right thing to do in my eyes. Limiting their income in the name of "fairness" does not appear to be working, considering the results of Basketball, Baseball, Football, Soccer, Volleyball, Hockey, Track, Wrestling and basically all NCAA sports. There just simply are schools that have advantages already. Period. Whether it be geography, amenities, population, donors wealth etc.I look at how in almost every sport, 5-10 programs essentially dominate, and I just think that there is no way it can get any worse than it is now. We will see Bama and Clemson in the playoffs again against either OU, OSU, Notre Dame, Georgia, or Texas. Just like we basically have the past 20 years. The favorites to win the NCAA basketball Championship are KU, MSU, UK and Duke. Just like every other season.

If there was tangible proof that limiting players to just their scholarship created a level playing field, you could convince me. But there is absolutely no evidence of that being the case. Bigger or more prestigious schools just simply are more attractive than smaller ones. It has always been the case and it will continue to be the case. Even if you limited athletic department budgets and coach salaries, you'd still have schools that have an advantage.

Players add value, and I cannot find one major reason why we should keep them from capturing it.

@Kcmatt7 "...5-7 KU team..."

Ah, I feel misty-eyed when anyone brings up those good old days....

@Kcmatt7 You said, "Players add value, and I cannot find one major reason why we should keep them from capturing it."

One MAJOR reason - The players don't own the NCAA or the colleges. That's about as major as it gets. The same reason I can't come and sleep in your house -- you OWN it. But that doesn't matter to you or others. You ignore the obvious, most important consideration in our economy. OWNERS MAKE RULES ON PRODUCTS THEY OWN. It doesn't matter that the players don't OWN the product to you. Your mindset continues to be, take what others have created. It's the same mindset of those wanting to pay McDonald's employees $15 an hour when anyone can do the job (ignoring the market value of the services). But more importantly, you and others (on a certain side of the political isle) devalue ownership of business, risk, investment, creation of product, etc. It's as if because it has been created, it should be shared. Why is this continually ignored by posters? Because it is an undeniable yet inconvenient truth. Or, more easy, because life is unfair.

The market value of the players' services is evidenced by no market for the players' services that is better than what the NCAA/Colleges own (other than what we see -- overseas, sub-leagues, etc.).

Folks won't pay for inferior products that EXCEPT because of the ties to the schools I've mentioned.

It's pretty obvious. You use the Kleinmann example. Right. If I were an autograph seeker, and I'm not, but I'd rather have Sherron Collins than Klienmann. This position of yours and others is related to making a major shift in rules nearly exclusively for those top tier guys. And, further, ignoring all the other sports -- golf, tennis, rowing, etc. No one wants anything from them. So it's the top tier.

You point to Alabama vs. KU. Ok, great. You take the top Power 5 program vs. perhaps a bottom 5 program. But how many other schools pack their stadiums regardless of product? But the macro product is not what I'm focused on.

The interchangeability is related to that particular school. Sure, I agree. Bama's overall group of players are better than KU's. And they add value to Bama vs. KU. Conceded.

But my point is that regardless of the individual identity of the player in the helmet, folks support the team. Now, that player has to be good or comparable, but assuming that fact, as we've seen at KU, we support them regardless of their identity BECAUSE they are a Jayhawk. This is really undeniable. As mentioned, Collins, TT, Tharpe, EJ, etc. Didn't matter. (Yes, even Tharpe). That's different than the overall product you cite. I'm focusing on this individual value, individual likeness stuff.

Another irrefutable point -- the players' individual likeness has little value without the benefit of that university connection. This is in direct contrast to other minor leagues. Those teams don't create marketing value for the player to any real extent.

*Of course, the free market argument can be used to claim that schools should just bid on players, that such an arrangement is truly "free market." That's an entirely different animal and different debate. That's professional sports to a certain degree (though even leagues like MLB where it's free bidding, no cap, there are major rules as to when a team's control of a player would end). There are legal arguments that could be made (they have been tried). But the NCAA model stands. It is an entity that can make its own rules for participation -- much like McDonalds. Professional sports (NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL) owners, as a group, can make their own rules. The NCAA, though slightly different, is in the same boat. The NCAA can make their own rules for participation.

HighEliteMajor said:

Folks won't pay for inferior products that EXCEPT because of the ties to the schools I've mentioned.

Exactly why minor league sports don't make any money and why the WNBA depends on the NBA subsidies for survival.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but if I worked as a college intern on a project that made a company billions I’d still be paid under our internship arrangement even if I made the key breakthrough. I’d just be compensated down the road with sweet job offers! 🤔

@BigBad Dead-on correct. Women are clamoring in sports for equal pay without regard to the fact that in most every instance, their product does not generate the same revenue as men. But it is so unfair ...

@Dylans Inescapable logic you offer there. I will certainly plagiarize in later discussions without any credit to my source. I was an unpaid intern, hated the idea of being unpaid (not looking big picture), but stuck with it based on some good advice, worked three part time jobs (like many others, and the internship paid off greatly in creating my career opportunity. But it was so unfair ...

dylans said:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but if I worked as a college intern on a project that made a company billions I’d still be paid under our internship arrangement even if I made the key breakthrough. I’d just be compensated down the road with sweet job offers! 🤔

Say you were an intern for NASA and got them to the moon. Say that information was leaked publicly, and you became famous in your hometown. Just a Kansas boy that got us to the moon. The local diner offers you $1,000 to come shake hands and launch the new "Dylans Moon Pie" recently added to the menu.

NASA wouldn't be preventing you from doing this.

@HighEliteMajor I've been of the opinion the NCAA has needed to overhaul their system since long before KU was ever under investigation. I shifted my discussion from the suggestions to tweaking the system to the system itself because of your response to my first post.

The NCAA created this mess long ago when they chose to turn a blind eye to rumors of players getting paid in both football and basketball instead of investigating and shutting down anything they found. They hammer a program about once a decade to keep up appearances of being in control when the reality is the NCAA lost control of amateurism long ago in college athletics. What the NCAA did isn't much different than MLB turning a blind eye to steroid abuse in the 80's and 90's and then essentially black listing players who took advantage of the system in place. The biggest difference between MLB and the NCAA in this case though is that MLB had the ability to enforce their own rules and began testing for steroids and punishing those found guilty of taking steroids. The NCAA doesn't have the resources to enforce their own rules evenly so they still turn a blind eye to a lot of stuff worthy of investigating.

This is why I'm an advocate for the NCAA to get together with schools from different levels of competition from the P5 schools all the way down to D3 programs and work with those schools to create a set of rules the NCAA can enforce at all levels. That also likely means the NCAA is going to give ground on players profiting from their likeness in some ways.

I'm not in the camp of saying someone like Zion should be able to sign a multi-million dollar shoe contract in college. Letting him auction off the shoe he blew out against UNC would get decent money. Someone like Zion would be in minority of actually being able to make life changing money as a college athlete. Most players would make a few hundred or so a year because of their relative obscurity to most fans.

I don't think a player should be able to sign endorsement deals and make money that way, but if someone is a budding music artist, let them make money off their music like any other student could do. The NCAA needs to be willing to work with their member schools to create a system that is agreed upon and enforceable. That means both sides would have to compromise on issues in order to reach that agreement. What would make the most impact at that point and determine if the new system would be effective is that NCAA would have to enforce those new rules fairly across the board from powerhouse programs all the way to the worst D3 programs.

HighEliteMajor said:

@Kcmatt7 You said, "Players add value, and I cannot find one major reason why we should keep them from capturing it."

One MAJOR reason - The players don't own the NCAA or the colleges. That's about as major as it gets. The same reason I can't come and sleep in your house -- you OWN it. But that doesn't matter to you or others. You ignore the obvious, most important consideration in our economy. OWNERS MAKE RULES ON PRODUCTS THEY OWN. It doesn't matter that the players don't OWN the product to you. Your mindset continues to be, take what others have created. It's the same mindset of those wanting to pay McDonald's employees $15 an hour when anyone can do the job (ignoring the market value of the services). But more importantly, you and others (on a certain side of the political isle) devalue ownership of business, risk, investment, creation of product, etc. It's as if because it has been created, it should be shared. Why is this continually ignored by posters? Because it is an undeniable yet inconvenient truth. Or, more easy, because life is unfair.

The school owns the brand and infrastructure and provide an amazing platform. Conceded.

They do not own the player.

I have NEVER argued that the school should share their profit. Ever. Not once. The schools own their brands and their infrastructure.

But the players are not products. They are participants just like anyone else who goes to work. Once you do your job, your time is then yours.

So, in their own free time, they should not be prevented from earning other income providing it is legal (not throwing games, or that sort of criminal behavior). Any other job on the planet would allow you to do this so long as you are performing your duties, there is no clear conflict of interest, and you don't negatively effect the company's image (Doing an advertisement for a Porn Company. Illicit Tweets. Etc).

There is very little risk here for the brands. If anything, it increases their exposure. It helps them grow the brand. It's the same reason that Pro contracts have forced Media Time in all of them. The more access available the more it helps the brand. Do you think the Chiefs are worried about what commercial Pat Mahomes is going to do? No. they're pumped he's on TV in a Chiefs uniform 5 commercials in a row.

If the NCAA wasn't against this, the schools would not care. I guarantee it. You know how I know? Because the other 30,000 kids that go to school there are free to do what they want. Because they don't have academic scholarship winners sign anything that says they can't make any money on the side without the school's consent.

HighEliteMajor said:

@Kcmatt7 You said, "Players add value, and I cannot find one major reason why we should keep them from capturing it."

One MAJOR reason - The players don't own the NCAA or the colleges. That's about as major as it gets. The same reason I can't come and sleep in your house -- you OWN it. But that doesn't matter to you or others. You ignore the obvious, most important consideration in our economy. OWNERS MAKE RULES ON PRODUCTS THEY OWN. It doesn't matter that the players don't OWN the product to you. Your mindset continues to be, take what others have created. It's the same mindset of those wanting to pay McDonald's employees $15 an hour when anyone can do the job (ignoring the market value of the services). But more importantly, you and others (on a certain side of the political isle) devalue ownership of business, risk, investment, creation of product, etc. It's as if because it has been created, it should be shared. Why is this continually ignored by posters? Because it is an undeniable yet inconvenient truth. Or, more easy, because life is unfair.

The market value of the players' services is evidenced by no market for the players' services that is better than what the NCAA/Colleges own (other than what we see -- overseas, sub-leagues, etc.).

Folks won't pay for inferior products that EXCEPT because of the ties to the schools I've mentioned.

It's pretty obvious. You use the Kleinmann example. Right. If I were an autograph seeker, and I'm not, but I'd rather have Sherron Collins than Klienmann. This position of yours and others is related to making a major shift in rules nearly exclusively for those top tier guys. And, further, ignoring all the other sports -- golf, tennis, rowing, etc. No one wants anything from them. So it's the top tier.

You point to Alabama vs. KU. Ok, great. You take the top Power 5 program vs. perhaps a bottom 5 program. But how many other schools pack their stadiums regardless of product? But the macro product is not what I'm focused on.

The interchangeability is related to that particular school. Sure, I agree. Bama's overall group of players are better than KU's. And they add value to Bama vs. KU. Conceded.

But my point is that regardless of the individual identity of the player in the helmet, folks support the team. Now, that player has to be good or comparable, but assuming that fact, as we've seen at KU, we support them regardless of their identity BECAUSE they are a Jayhawk. This is really undeniable. As mentioned, Collins, TT, Tharpe, EJ, etc. Didn't matter. (Yes, even Tharpe). That's different than the overall product you cite. I'm focusing on this individual value, individual likeness stuff.

Another irrefutable point -- the players' individual likeness has little value without the benefit of that university connection. This is in direct contrast to other minor leagues. Those teams don't create marketing value for the player to any real extent.

*Of course, the free market argument can be used to claim that schools should just bid on players, that such an arrangement is truly "free market." That's an entirely different animal and different debate. That's professional sports to a certain degree (though even leagues like MLB where it's free bidding, no cap, there are major rules as to when a team's control of a player would end). There are legal arguments that could be made (they have been tried). But the NCAA model stands. It is an entity that can make its own rules for participation -- much like McDonalds. Professional sports (NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL) owners, as a group, can make their own rules. The NCAA, though slightly different, is in the same boat. The NCAA can make their own rules for participation.

And the NCAA doesn't own the players - - that would be called slavery. - -if you think the NCAA OWNS these kids - - I feel sorry for you - -people owning people? - - those days are long gone - - Thank GOD. - Again why should it be the privlege of the NCAA to make money off these kids and not Kids be able to make money to live? -Again just like anyone else this is a job to these kids - - or a future job - -last time I checked people get paid to work/jobs - these kids should be no different.

every time they step on the court they are interviewing for their upcoming life/job - -they don't produce/ they don't make the big stage - - - more on the line then just a game for them. - -

These kids entertain us when they play , you tell me where else can you go watch a event and not have to pay to watch entertainment? - - Movies?/NOPE - - Play Golf/Nope Racing Event/ NOPE ? Baseball ?/NOPE - - Football? ? NOPE - -there is not any place you can go to watch entertainment - -that's exactly what these kids are doing for us - - entertaining - so dam straight they should be paid - - You would have to pay to watch those same kids later if/when they make the NBA -- this to them is a job just like any other Red Blooded American - whether you want to believe that or not - -you don't want to then - -Not my Rodeo -- Not my cowboy -just takes longer for some to grasp it that's all pretty simple.

You bring up people and mind sets of like wanting to pay McDonalds employees 15 dollars an hour when anyone can do that ignoring market value - -well I can't specifically speak for McDonald employees BUT I can speak for where I DID WORK same situation there.

I work in a huge food production plant - - - worked there for 10 yrs and then fell to disability because of my back - - this job had lot to do with my disability - -real shit job, but with my situation at the time took what I could get. - -started out there at 8.00 per hour - -and just like the other employees didn't get squat - -lots of time through out the year had to work loads of overtime worked 24/7 shifts a lot- -finally right about the or my end worked as a MACHINE OPERATOR and still finally hit 10.00 per hour after 10 fricken years - -Now since I've been gone after years and years of employee complaints this factory raised their wages more standard up to date - - ya anyone pretty much could do our job too - but they wouldn't because of wage. Are you saying that market value of jobs like I know dam well even though as you say ANYONE could do the work - -umm my market value was a lot more then the pay.

Now can you tell me - -can ANYONE do what these kids do? - - Not hardly sure you can dribble a ball maybe make a basket - but dam well know your skills is no where close to these guys - that's why they are working towards their future as a NBA player entertain - -again IT'S A JOB - just also happens to be something they like to do - -AND ? - -there is no way the NCAA should be profiting of these kids entertainment - -just like anyone else that preforms for people - -they should be getting SOME KIND of money PERIOD

Kcmatt7 said:

dylans said:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but if I worked as a college intern on a project that made a company billions I’d still be paid under our internship arrangement even if I made the key breakthrough. I’d just be compensated down the road with sweet job offers! 🤔

Say you were an intern for NASA and got them to the moon. Say that information was leaked publicly, and you became famous in your hometown. Just a Kansas boy that got us to the moon. The local diner offers you $1,000 to come shake hands and launch the new "Dylans Moon Pie" recently added to the menu.

NASA wouldn't be preventing you from doing this.

They could depending upon the deal you agreed too. And I would be more scared of NASA (likely a defense contract somewhere along the line) than the NCAA.

HEM is right. The schools own the NCAA and the NCAA, by virtue of the powers conferred upon it by its members, gets to make the rules. You want to be a member, you are subject to their rules. If you want to play for a member, you do so within the structure established under the rules.

But, HEM is also wrong. Rules can be changed. And many organizations have changed lots of their rules both by internal choice and in response to external pressure.

People and other institutions affected by the rules are pressuring the NCAA to change its rules. So far as I know, the NCAA has the right to consider the ideas being presented, and the right to change to meet the broader circumstances at play.

There is literally nothing written on a couple of stone tablets handed down as holy writ requiring the current system. The revered Rules of our favorite sport were handed down by Dr. Naismith. But good lord, if those rules hadn't changed and adapted to new ideas, not one person in the country would ever watch or care about basketball.

All organizations change, adapt, and evolve, or they fail. Some die out anyway. That happens in business and in life.

mayjay said:

HEM is right. The schools own the NCAA and the NCAA, by virtue of the powers conferred upon it by its members, gets to make the rules. You want to be a member, you are subject to their rules. If you want to play for a member, you do so within the structure established under the rules.

But, HEM is also wrong. Rules can be changed. And many organizations have changed lots of their rules both by internal choice and in response to external pressure.

People and other institutions affected by the rules are pressuring the NCAA to change its rules. So far as I know, the NCAA has the right to consider the ideas being presented, and the right to change to meet the broader circumstances at play.

There is literally nothing written on a couple of stone tablets handed down as holy writ requiring the current system. The revered Rules of our favorite sport were handed down by Dr. Naismith. But good lord, if those rules hadn't changed and adapted to new ideas, not one person in the country would ever watch or care about basketball.

All organizations change, adapt, and evolve, or they fail. Some die out anyway. That happens in business and in life.

@mayjay Regarding the "wrong" reference, I think you've use a red herring to simply make your point. I, of course, have never said that an organization's rules couldn't be changed. I've said they shouldn't be changed.

We all agree that the NCAA can change its rules and there is nothing in stone.

The most important reason not to change -- the why not -- is because the schools, the owners, do not want to change. But an equally important reason "why not" to change is because it makes no sense, business-wise, to change.

The business model works. Athletes to fill the spots are plentiful, if certain athletes don't want to participate other fill their spots (the irrefutable "interchangeable" argument), there is no mass walkout by the athletes, athletes (all scholarship athletes) by a large, large majority (say, 95% as a guess) are happy with their arrangement, those athletes are getting a free education which lasts a lifetime, the high level athletes have a massive stage to increase their marketability and draft status, and the business makes millions of dollars.

That's the truth of the business end. And it is undeniable. But that doesn't matter. It's just ignored. Or lied about.

The sole reason that change might occur is because of political pressure based on the social justice garbage. Garbage that creates false narratives, focuses on a select few athletes, and ignores why the NCAA even exists. Quite simply, it's a political perspective that hates business, hates owners, and hates the idea that a business can control it's own rules (i.e., tell a worker what the worker can and can't do). That is what is driving this.

Part of what drives that is constant reaction to the alleged plight of the inner city black athlete who doesn't have pizza money. And, of course, we should all change everything so that athlete can make $2,000 in a local car commercial? I say "black" athlete because -- the real truth -- that's all this is. This entire cause celeb is because of the perception and false narrative that the inner city black athlete is somehow being taken advantage of.

When the truth is, the athletic scholarship, by itself, may be the single greatest benefit that athlete has ever received -- one that will change his/her life forever (white, black, or anywhere in between). The individual, the athlete, gets much more individually than the school gains from that individual (because that individual can be replaced by another). But to the individual that fills the spot, the scholarship is of exponential worth.

That's what is lost. Not lost so much as purposefully ignored.

@HighEliteMajor

Slavery was a good business model too.

A business model that exploits human beings would be unconstitutional.

I think that may be the case with the NCAA. That's a good reason to change the rules.

Of course, it could take a very long time for this to run through the courts and for the courts to determine for or against that fact.

By the way, I don't know about the argument that this all about black athletes.. I imagine that there are a lot of female athletes of all races that will have an opportunity to make money off their image and likeness.

Advertising likes healthy, attractive people for their products.

bskeet said:

@HighEliteMajor

Slavery was a good business model too.

A business model that exploits human beings would be unconstitutional.

I think that may be the case with the NCAA. That's a good reason to change the rules.

Of course, it could take a very long time for this to run through the courts and for the courts to determine for or against that fact.

Don't forget the early 1900s. Imagine where this country would be without all of that "Social Justice Garbage."

I mean, what a bunch of f-ing p*ssies. Didn't they know retirement is for the dead? Which, conveniently, came earlier back then because of all of the health care that didn't exist and the sick days you didn't get. At least 16 hour days led to major profits. Well, until the 1930s. But that obviously wasn't because they let businesses do whatever they want and the economy collapsed under it's own weight and the majority of the workforce was left unprotected and literally out on the streets.

We only had to enact major worker's rights, pass enormous oversight legislation, develop the largest social program to date and partake in a war that saw 80M fatalities to come out of it. Really not a big deal. Certainly no lesson to be learned in any of that. No siree.

You know what's the great thing about this NCAA investigation crap? It keeps us occupied to the point that we aren't talking about the 82-3 pasting that's coming this weekend.

Kinda funny how Jayhawks are involved again with liberating "slavery".

nuleafjhawk said:

You know what's the great thing about this NCAA investigation crap? It keeps us occupied to the point that we aren't talking about the 82-3 pasting that's coming this weekend.

I miss sports as a distraction from things that actually matter. This involving politics into sports is ruining it for me. I wouldn’t even watch football if it weren’t for Mahomes. I really hope LeBron and his ilk don’t ruin college basketball for me as well.

nuleafjhawk said:

You know what's the great thing about this NCAA investigation crap? It keeps us occupied to the point that we aren't talking about the 82-3 pasting that's coming this weekend.

Ahh valid point - - ahhh yes valid point indeed. - - Hell I had ALMOST forgotten there was a pasting/ - -umm I mean a game this weekend to you brought it up - - thanks lmao

bskeet said:

@HighEliteMajor

Slavery was a good business model too.

A business model that exploits human beings would be unconstitutional.

I think that may be the case with the NCAA. That's a good reason to change the rules.

Of course, it could take a very long time for this to run through the courts and for the courts to determine for or against that fact.

I'm sorry, but that is perhaps the most inflammatory and illogical comparison you could make. Straight from the NBA player handbook -- at least you were able to do it in a complete sentence with enunciation of each word. It's the type of stuff that makes your position look all that more ridiculous and makes my arguments look better.

From your point of view, if this is the reply, then the entire American workforce is exploited.

Of course, the inconvenient fact that your statement ignores is the matter of CHOICE. But you and many others that tend to occupy one side of the political isle avoid that truth.

Kcmatt7 said:

bskeet said:

@HighEliteMajor

Slavery was a good business model too.

A business model that exploits human beings would be unconstitutional.

I think that may be the case with the NCAA. That's a good reason to change the rules.

Of course, it could take a very long time for this to run through the courts and for the courts to determine for or against that fact.

Don't forget the early 1900s. Imagine where this country would be without all of that "Social Justice Garbage."

I mean, what a bunch of f-ing p*ssies. Didn't they know retirement is for the dead? Which, conveniently, came earlier back then because of all of the health care that didn't exist and the sick days you didn't get. At least 16 hour days led to major profits. Well, until the 1930s. But that obviously wasn't because they let businesses do whatever they want and the economy collapsed under it's own weight and the majority of the workforce was left unprotected and literally out on the streets.

We only had to enact major worker's rights, pass enormous oversight legislation, develop the largest social program to date and partake in a war that saw 80M fatalities to come out of it. Really not a big deal. Certainly no lesson to be learned in any of that. No siree.

Which has nothing to do with the here and now -- 2019. Not as silly of an analogy as the slavery tripe, but close.

I am all in and support the players uniting to change their conditions. To exercise their power and leverage. To refuse to play. To make demands. Now, I may disagree with their position, meaning the logic, etc. But I would completely support the exercise of that leverage/power. It's why I support players' right to hold out in pro sports. Or unions walking off the job. I may disagree with their flawed logic in some cases, but it's their individual choice. It's why I love the fact that Darius Bazely skipped college and signed with New Balance. It's why I love that the recruit we were targeting went to play in Australia.

That tough word, CHOICE.

However, the economics of all of this doesn't make that approach reasonable -- as your example clearly did from decade's past. But the players can band together, walk out, and exercise their power. Make the CHOICE to refuse to play. Not seeing that.

What we see are the external forces at play. Politics.

This issue is motivated by the social justice garbage. "Social justice" is much different now, than in the 1860s, 1930s, or 1960s. This is mostly about political power and really has nothing to do with the NCAA players (all sports, all skill levels).

bskeet said:

I'm no expert on the pros and cons of allowing students to profit from their image and likeness, but one of the more compelling arguments I've heard is that every citizen has this right, and that the NCAA's rule is stripping a group of people from this basic right.

I've heard two very impassioned arguments about how this will 1) transform women athletes and bring much greater notoriety to them, and 2) destroy women's athletics and undo title IX.. Essentially completely opposite projections on the impact. My conclusion: No one can predict what the benefits and consequences of this will really be.

My other conclusion as to why the NCAA is really fighting this: Status quo and the ability to better control what is known.

I'm sorry, just saw this. Follow here -- you're right, we have the right to profit from our likeness. This is agreed. But you can agree to sign away your rights to profit from any number of activities. You can accept benefits with conditions, and that condition can include your likeness.

You could take a job today that prohibits me from doing a whole range of things based on your agreement. The employer could say you will not buy and sell houses on the side. The employer could say you will not sell photos of yourself. Take this job and you can't do these things. Whatever. There is a very small list of exceptions.

I seriously do not know how this stuff doesn't register.

@dylans Absolutley - i'm right there with you. I've always been a Chief's fan and so far nobody's screwed that up, but I really don't give a crap about college football any more (cuz I'm a KU fan.....sorrry) and I'm definitely not excited about basketball any more. I'll watch it, but i won't do it at the expense of missing out on other things if they come along. Like fishing, playing cards, mowing the yard, shoveling the drive, taking a nap.

@HighEliteMajor A bit too much heat thrown, in my opinion. I meant no disrespect, but feel pretty disrespected.

I don't think you are open to another point of view.

SO BE IT.

AMEN.

HighEliteMajor said:

From your point of view, if this is the reply, then the entire American workforce is exploited.

That's certainly not what I meant.

I'm open to an explanation of how my argument leads to this conclusion.

FWIW, the indentured servitude trope (or tripe) was not invented here.

NCAA must end its indentured servitude of college athletes

https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/college/ct-spt-ncaa-athletes-transfer-rules-20190118-story.html ↗

JAN 18, 2019

"In the discussion of college athlete rights, the focus has shifted over the last decade to primarily compensation for the athletes, without recognizing that the cartel deprives all college athletes of fundamental rights, like right to interstate travel, right of publicity, right of privacy, forced waiver of educational privacy rights under federal law, right to counsel, right to due process, right to private property, and so on," said Richard Johnson, a lawyer who 10 years ago successfully sued the NCAA over its denial of college players' using lawyers...

@bskeet Low heat. On your statement, "A business model that exploits human beings would be unconstitutional." And my response, "From your point of view, if this is the reply, then the entire American workforce is exploited." You equated college athletics to slavery. Again, unfathomable. But if you believe athletes are "exploited" (again, the entire realm of NCAA athletes, not just the Andrew Wiggins' level), then a look around America and the labor folks do that help other get rich, I think would lead easily to my conclusion. Athletes are pampered in large part, get extra tutoring, great food, nice living arrangements, gear, they get to travel/see the country, built in social life, all why attending college (some view as positive) for free (or in lower sports, a good chunk free if a partial scholarship). Every "worker" is exploited to some degree. It's the level of exploitation that is legally important. The level of exploitation here is really very minimal compared to what we easily could argue elsewhere. I don't even think it qualifies because there are so many other choices.

The poor fellow that can only dig ditches, no education, three kids, bills, rent, nothing in the bank account, trying to support a family -- and his boss, the excavation company owner, makes him work overtime, limited pay, tough work. Let's get real.

I also understand that your slavery comment was not the first dive into that arena and that others have made similar suggestions, such as the "indentured servitude" link you've provided. The term "cartel" is something folks like Jay Bilas have latched onto. Of course, purposefully inflammatory, just like the slavery comments, to make folks think "drug cartel." But a cartel is "an association of manufacturers or suppliers with the purpose of maintaining prices at a high level and restricting competition." That is pretty benign, really. But cartels, in practice, engage in price fixing and they squeeze competition through aggressive and mostly illegal means (like killing and threats). Like the drug cartel.

As I've pointed out, the NCAA does nothing significant to restrict competition. I mentioned yesterday that they don't engage in monopolistic activity like acquiring other sports entities (or one that could be directly applicable, using threats that they won't rent arena space if arenas rent to other leagues). And they don't have the purpose of "high prices." In fact, their events are very reasonably priced in most every instance. Some even free like lower level events.

This type of usage of cartel is laughable, but it fits the script of certain folks that attempt to demonize as part of their argument. "What can we say that will grab attention and paint the other side as evil?" But it has no real basis in fact.

You suggest I don't have an open mind. I'd suggest that at every turn, I've refuted quite directly most every point on the topic. I'm not saying that I'm absolutely right. But I'd say that I've chinked the armor of you and others' arguments pretty significantly.

I'd offer that the reaction to support the compensation of players, whatever form (likeness, etc.) that run contrary to the NCAA rules, is driven by feelings of unfairness (in large part). When feelings enter the picture, folks throw out "slavery" in opinion. Something, again, inflammatory and plainly inapplicable.

I will also offer that the NCAA did not prohibit any possible player or family from consulting a lawyer prior to accepting/signing the Letter of Intent. The lawyer's little statement ignores again the choice to enter the organization and play by that organization's rules. There is an entire, big world outside of NCAA sports wherein you don't have rules that govern you -- like this crazy idea of paying for your own college expenses. This attorney throws out all this blather, but the reality is that the NCAA still stands.

https://247sports.com/college/kansas/Article/How-KU-basketball-coach-Bill-Self-views-NCAA-news-surrounding-program-136437196/ ↗

HighEliteMajor said:

As I've pointed out, the NCAA does nothing significant to restrict competition. I mentioned yesterday that they don't engage in monopolistic activity like acquiring other sports entities (or one that could be directly applicable, using threats that they won't rent arena space if arenas rent to other leagues). And they don't have the purpose of "high prices." In fact, their events are very reasonably priced in most every instance. Some even free like lower level events.

They own a monopoly over the schools themselves. They have basically already acquired every single public 4-year university in the country.

The only competition that the NCAA has in the world of College Athletics is the NAIA, and that's made entirely of private institutions. That is it. And the NCAA could buy them tomorrow if they wanted to.

Schools are no longer voluntarily NCAA members. In order to leave, a public institution would have to get approval from their board of regents. Which they never would get.

So the schools have no where to go, and the NCAA can make up whatever rules it wants, fines it wants, strip whatever wins, and the schools have nothing they can do about it.

Their business is derived completely from fans of member institutions, institutions that have nowhere to go. That is exactly what a monopoly is.

@Kcmatt7 "The only competition that the NCAA has in the world of College Athletics is the NAIA, and that’s made entirely of private institutions. That is it. And the NCAA could buy them tomorrow if they wanted to."

Some organizations don't want to be bought out. You ever hear of any NAIA scandals or corruption? Me neither. SO how bout a couple hundred NCAA schools skip town and join the NAIA? Then THEY could buy out the NCAA.

Obviously i don't know what i'm talking about, but i'm an idea man. You ever see the movie Night Shift? I'm Michael Keaton. "Wanna know why I carry this tape recorder? To tape things. See, I'm an idea man, Chuck. I got ideas coming at me all day... I couldn't even fight 'em off if I wanted. Wait a second... hold the phone! Hold the phone! [speaking into tape recorder] Idea to eliminate garbage. Edible paper. You eat it, it's gone! You eat it, it's outta there! No more garbage! "

Hey - it's worth a shot. Screw the NCAA

Kcmatt7 said:

HighEliteMajor said:

As I've pointed out, the NCAA does nothing significant to restrict competition. I mentioned yesterday that they don't engage in monopolistic activity like acquiring other sports entities (or one that could be directly applicable, using threats that they won't rent arena space if arenas rent to other leagues). And they don't have the purpose of "high prices." In fact, their events are very reasonably priced in most every instance. Some even free like lower level events.

They own a monopoly over the schools themselves. They have basically already acquired every single public 4-year university in the country.

The only competition that the NCAA has in the world of College Athletics is the NAIA, and that's made entirely of private institutions. That is it. And the NCAA could buy them tomorrow if they wanted to.

Schools are no longer voluntarily NCAA members. In order to leave, a public institution would have to get approval from their board of regents. Which they never would get.

So the schools have no where to go, and the NCAA can make up whatever rules it wants, fines it wants, strip whatever wins, and the schools have nothing they can do about it.

Their business is derived completely from fans of member institutions, institutions that have nowhere to go. That is exactly what a monopoly is.

Oh, I have not doubt you can argue it's a monopoly. The fact that one entity is the sole party providing a product line is the starting point. But you are correct, my blanket statement about it not being a "monopoly" is strained.

When I say that it's not a monopoly, I mean to focus on the illegality. There are lots of "monopolies" in fact, a single supplier, a single maker of an item -- patents and trademarks create that. So I would grant you the pure "monopoly" idea inside the world of "college" sports if it weren't for the NAIA. Even then, I think defining the sports by "college" is too restrictive to evoke the monopoly idea.

Lots of avenues for "sports" endeavors as I noted.

So my statement about it not being a monopoly would be akin to a drug company. They can compete and make drugs (the sport of basketball), but Merck might have the patent on a specific drug formulation (College BB as an analogy).

Of course, kids at the age of CBB players can play anywhere, not just CBB, so it's a bit looser there (and helpful to my position).

We know there is no law against having a monopoly. It's perfectly legal. There are monopolies everywhere. The antitrust laws are there to promote competition. This was the basis of the recent compensation suit. The NCAA has lost before. My point notes the non-monopolistic characteristics/facts that would defeat the illegality issue. Sometimes there are winners and losers in competition.

What I mean is that we live in an economy that promotes and allows competition. Nothing is restricted here, but more importantly, the NCAA isn't the economic predator. But they do operate a business inside of a contained and restricted bubble.

To that point, why can't anyone compete with the NCAA?

And to your point, the NCAA could easily "buy" the NAIA -- but they haven't.

I also would suggest that each of the schools are individuals, with competing interests, working together. Therein lies the rub, and therein is your best argument. I recognize that good arguments can be made on this item (and my opinion is just that it's not, economically, what the government should be looking to restrict or manage). And that there is clearly some activity that can be scrutinized.

The issue for lawsuits is monopolistic activity, violation of the anti-trust laws. Very little here to see for me overall. And legally, we see very little activity with teeth in that regard.

HighEliteMajor said:

@bskeet You equated college athletics to slavery. Again, unfathomable.

I also understand that your slavery comment was not the first dive into that arena and that others have made similar suggestions, such as the "indentured servitude" link you've provided.

Of course, purposefully inflammatory, just like the slavery comments, to make folks think "drug cartel."

When feelings enter the picture, folks throw out "slavery" in opinion. Something, again, inflammatory and plainly inapplicable.

I get that you are pretty bruised by the word slavery. Not meant to be inflammatory. Sorry you took offense.

There's a lesson in rhetoric here that I get loud and clear.

Beating the point over and over again (also a rhetorical device) has not convinced me that the NCAA is not taking advantage of the collective population of student-athletes.

...And, how does any of this lead to the conclusion that the entire American workforce is exploited? That was the question for which I invited elucidation.

@bskeet Not bruised, just recognizing the purposefully inflammatory mindset that would use such a comparison. With as much respect as possible, it's just absolute, unequivocal nonsense. AND YOU KNOW IT. Everyone knows it. Nonsensical.

Oh, I noticed the slave Khalil Herbert has left the plantation. I don't see a slave master chasing him down with dogs or whipping him for his CHOICE. That was after he slept in fine quarters, dined on excellent food, strode the plantation that is the KU campus as if he owned the place, and practiced his skills in front of thousands of adoring fans. Again, completely devoid of logic and used solely to inflame.

It's interesting that we never see the counter argument on TV. We see lap dogs. ESPN round tables, or outside the lines, they just fawn over the topic. It's no different than the media that assists left wing politicians by slanting news stories, choosing what to report, manipulating headlines, offering opinion as factual reporting, and lying about sources to serve its larger purpose -- but I digress.

I agree that the NCAA is “taking advantage of” certain CBB and CFB athletes. Top level guys in those two sports are the only ones we could even consider in the discussion. Different than the idea of “exploitation” — but it’s a matter of degree. Part of my reply above was the following. Perhaps you don’t think it addressed your point. I intended to address it. See below from a post above:

@bskeet Low heat. On your statement, “A business model that exploits human beings would be unconstitutional.” And my response, “From your point of view, if this is the reply, then the entire American workforce is exploited.” You equated college athletics to slavery. Again, unfathomable. But if you believe athletes are “exploited” (again, the entire realm of NCAA athletes, not just the Andrew Wiggins’ level), then a look around America and the labor folks do that help other get rich, I think would lead easily to my conclusion. Athletes are pampered in large part, get extra tutoring, great food, nice living arrangements, gear, they get to travel/see the country, built in social life, all why attending college (some view as positive) for free (or in lower sports, a good chunk free if a partial scholarship). Every “worker” is exploited to some degree. It’s the level of exploitation that is legally important. The level of exploitation here is really very minimal compared to what we easily could argue elsewhere. I don’t even think it qualifies because there are so many other choices.

The poor fellow that can only dig ditches, no education, three kids, bills, rent, nothing in the bank account, trying to support a family – and his boss, the excavation company owner, makes him work overtime, limited pay, tough work. Let’s get real.

@HighEliteMajor @bskeet It's racism. That's the point you both are bouncing around but never actually touching. White people hate talking about racism because they can't win anymore. One of you (@bskeet ) understands at least innately if not explicitly that a big factor in this argument is the race a significant population of the players compared to the race of the significant population of the people in power. And so in your arguments you bring up former instances of racism like slavery.

The other (@HighEliteMajor ) definitely understands the racial element but seeks to remove it completely from the conversation because it's "social justice garbage" and if he pretends race isn't really a factor he can live in his land of logic where humanity is just weak feelings crap.
Anytime someone suggests an idea that might redistribute power from top down, those in power (or at least those that look like those in power) do what they can to maintain that power.

Of course college basketball and slavery aren't the same thing. Of course there is more choice for a college athlete today than for a slave in the 1800s or for current slaves today in the american penal system. However the RACISM driving the issue and argument is very much the same. It is impossible to discuss the conflict between a workforce made up primarily of people of color and executives who are primarily white without discussing race. I know it's scary for us whites but we'd be better off it we'd just call it like it is and talk about the stuff we are afraid of.

Some people aren't going to like this comment because it brings "politics" into a sports conversation but sorry, race is one of the biggest issues in sports right now. White sports fans look at black athletes making millions of dollars or getting "free rides" and think those folks should feel lucky, but ignore the white owners and execs making 100s of millions of dollars and maintaining systems that uphold that economic inequity. I'm sure HEM will argue that the owners "earned" those millions by working harder and being smarter. They didn't. They aren't.

Communistic thoughts abound. Redistribution of wealth and power to those who make the most noise, but haven’t earned it is becoming the norm. I hate the current sports and political climate. I’m out guys see you when the games start, maybe.

BigBad said:

jhawk7782 said:

Meanwhile, North Carolina landed a commitment from five-star center Walker Kessler on Sunday night.

NCAA: No Academic Violations at UNC
Ruling comes despite university’s finding that many athletes were for years enrolled in and passed courses they did not attend and that were not taught by anyone.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/10/16/breaking-ncaa-finds-no-academic-fraud-unc ↗

I don't buy into the "everyone else is doing it" excuse either but doesn't it seem that the NCAA has always had double standards? Some schools seem immune to NCAA violations.

For the MILLIONTH time. The NCAA can not do ANYTHING about classes that a college accredits and offers to all students. UNC cheapened it's university for sports, but not illegal.

Hey BigBad, I believe you but the NCAA still investigated although the 'NCAA does not have oversight authority for university academic programs' (wiki). Can't the NCAA still charge the University with loss of institutional control?

@HighEliteMajor When I tell you that it was not meant to be inflammatory and you retort that it was purposeful, then you are just picking a fight.

Presuming to know what I think or suggesting my mindset is also incendiary.

Simmer down. I can't find the signal amidst all the noise.

You seem to be arguing that "everyone is exploited" to one extent or another, so that somehow indemnifies the NCAA. If that's your argument, then I guess we're philosophically on different sides. If not, sorry I don't get it.

FWIW, I think it's possible for a more balanced, fair and symbiotic relationship between the institution and the athletes. I think the NCAA used to preserve such a relationship, but market forces have shifted and they have not sufficiently evolved their rules and policies with the times. The NCAA is not as fair as it needs to be. It's out of balance. They are making very small steps, but I think the market is telling them it is past due and not progressive enough.

The NCAA's ability to resist market forces is another indicator that there aren't adequate alternatives and they are monopolistic.

Notable, also funny story about the weirdness that is the NCAA https://www.golf.com/news/features/2019/10/04/division-3-golf-dylan-dethier-ncaa/ ↗

@FarmerJayhawk Yep, good example of the archaic and overly-restrictive rules. Also, fair and consistent enforcement seems to be beyond their capacity. Perhaps this is why they tend to lean toward hardline, dogmatic responses.

The motivation to change the system just isn't there because the status quo is so lucrative — for them.

@bskeet

Wobblies, anew to the barricades! Free Luke Axtel!!!

!13442407_10153511399861604_5721905446094592324_n.jpeg ↗

benshawks08 said:

@HighEliteMajor @bskeet It's racism. That's the point you both are bouncing around but never actually touching. White people hate talking about racism because they can't win anymore. One of you (@bskeet ) understands at least innately if not explicitly that a big factor in this argument is the race a significant population of the players compared to the race of the significant population of the people in power. And so in your arguments you bring up former instances of racism like slavery.

The other (@HighEliteMajor ) definitely understands the racial element but seeks to remove it completely from the conversation because it's "social justice garbage" and if he pretends race isn't really a factor he can live in his land of logic where humanity is just weak feelings crap.
Anytime someone suggests an idea that might redistribute power from top down, those in power (or at least those that look like those in power) do what they can to maintain that power.

Of course college basketball and slavery aren't the same thing. Of course there is more choice for a college athlete today than for a slave in the 1800s or for current slaves today in the american penal system. However the RACISM driving the issue and argument is very much the same. It is impossible to discuss the conflict between a workforce made up primarily of people of color and executives who are primarily white without discussing race. I know it's scary for us whites but we'd be better off it we'd just call it like it is and talk about the stuff we are afraid of.

Some people aren't going to like this comment because it brings "politics" into a sports conversation but sorry, race is one of the biggest issues in sports right now. White sports fans look at black athletes making millions of dollars or getting "free rides" and think those folks should feel lucky, but ignore the white owners and execs making 100s of millions of dollars and maintaining systems that uphold that economic inequity. I'm sure HEM will argue that the owners "earned" those millions by working harder and being smarter. They didn't. They aren't.

Bam. You have said exactly what I've suggested. In my mind, it's all about the poor inner city black kid. That is the core of what has driven this issue.

And I'm sorry, I'm not going to permit my life, my thoughts, my actions, and my concerns to be predicated upon a culture that refuses to help themselves -- more appropriately, a self-destructive culture.

Rahm Emanuel, an Obama democrat, the former mayor of Chicago that saw this inner city "culture" firsthand, said:

“This may not be politically correct,” he said, “but I know the power of what faith and family can do. … Our kids need that structure. … I am asking … that we also don’t shy away from a full discussion about the importance of family and faith helping to develop and nurture character, self-respect, a value system and a moral compass that allows kids to know good from bad and right from wrong.”

He added: “If we’re going to solve this … we’ve got to have a real discussion. … Parts of the conversation cannot be off-limits because it’s not politically comfortable. … We are going to discuss issues that have been taboo in years past because they are part of the solution. … We also have a responsibility to help nurture character. It plays a role. Our kids need that moral structure in their lives. And we cannot be scared to have this conversation.”

Of course, there was anger in response, marching, verbal attacks, etc. Zero ... I mean zero ... mention of personal responsibility from the "other side" of this issue.

I would say that our country would be much better off if we can take what @benshawks08 said, and what Rahm Emanuel said, and honestly address what ails our inner city.

A big hint -- the discussion has nothing to do with blaming inanimate objects.

As I've said over and over, CHOICE.

Look at my bi-line. "What in America is anyone prohibited from doing, earning, or achieving?" This is what America offers in 2019. Undeniable.

As a conservative, I've had it. I've had with the glorification of a bankrupt culture (inner city black culture) and with the continued garbage we deal with day in, and day out. To the core of my beliefs, people that hurt people, commit carnage, destroy lives, and have no morality are enemy. They are the enemy of a civil society. I don't care what they look like. Yet we want to explain away, continually, the repulsive and destructive behavior. It's disgusting.

Thank the the good Lord we have good people like @wissox who works w/young kids in the inner city. @benshawks08 sounds like a great teacher too!

@Crimsonorblue22 Thanks.

@HighEliteMajor odd that you say you don’t care what they look like but specifically describe the appearance of those that are your enemy. Don’t have to read between the lines to see that a person who says black culture is my enemy is engaging in racist thoughts and behavior. It’s hate speech. It’s amoral. That kind of blatant white supremacy is exactly what prohibits a whole lot of people from doing, earning, or achieving.

Side note, I have no idea what inanimate objects you are referring to.

Honest question, what is your personal responsibility? Does it end with you? Your partner? Your children? Your neighbor? Your city?

Sure a person of color has choice but can you honestly say they have the same choices as you? How often are you stopped by police? If you and a black person commit the same crime who do you think will get the harsher sentence? Did you get suspended from school for discretionary offenses? What’s the personal responsibility of the cop, the judge, the teacher, the principal?

Sure there is more choice now, but 1 generation ago there wasn’t. Every black adult has a family member who was by law prohibited from doing, earning, and achieving.

We do agree that in this case the athletes may have more power than they are using with respect to boycotts. Wonder if they’ve ever heard about any boycotts in the past? Think grandpa told them about sitting at a counter? Think an athlete’s aunt ever rode a bus?

And what about the people in power? What legacy was passed down from their families? If I’d have spent more time as a child with my uncle in Missouri who was a card carrying member of the KKK, how might my choices be different?

@Crimsonorblue22 Thanks. The future is bright no matter how scared some people are of it. Kids get this stuff. Kids today seem to care about people more than money so that’s a start. At least the ones I know.

@benshawks08 Please note the distinction. “Inner city black culture.” It has nothing to do with my black neighbor.

Inner city black culture. You know what it is. I know what it is. We all know what it is. You can turn your back on it, cry racism. I don’t give one good d*** what you think about me.

I care about our country. The absolute violence and carnage brought on our country by the inner city black culture is astounding and unmatched. Don’t talk to me about the 1800s or 1930, or whatever. This is today.

Look at Late Night at AFH and the disgusting show put on in the name of our university. All in the name of ATTRACTING the black athlete. We should all be absolutely embarrassed. This is what is needed to gets kids to sign? Disgusting.

I watched suburban kids try to mimic the disgusting culture. Pants hanging halfway down their a** — an inner city black culture invention to glorify the gangster in jail that has no belt and can’t keep his pants up. Just beautiful.

More importantly than that, a culture of drive by shootings, random acts of carnage, roaming gangs — a culture where choosing to grab a gun and kill someone is ingrained. Daily. Not here and there. DAILY.

Among blacks, 73% of births are out of wedlock. In the inner city, much higher. That has steadily increased since the 60s. To me, this is the most important cause of the inner city destruction we see now.

Worse, black dads with multiple children, with multiple women. It’s an epidemic in the inner city black communities. Heck, look at our BB teams. Who’s got a dad? Whose dad is in jail. Whose mom has the same last name as her son? How many half brothers and half sisters?

This is the plague of the inner city black culture — the answer to the “why.”

And racism is the problem. What a joke.

So don’t give me this racism crap. I don’t care what you call it. I call it reality.

When I see a buddy of mine, a black surgeon, actively trying to keep his kids AWAY from the inner city black culture, that is a huge answer for me. When I hear him discuss it, it cements it.

It’s really sick. We see a “mass” shooting, 10 dead, 20 injured. Horrific. But then we IGNORE the carnage of a single night in Chicago, or a weekend in STL, or you name the Inner city (the deep blue voting areas by no coincidence).

Why? Because the ANSWER makes you uncomfortable. You and others like you operate on feelings. Not facts. You want to normalize abhorrent behavior. You’ll blame everything except the personal behavior.

You are the dangerous enabler. Well intentioned. But when there are so many folks that provide excuses, refuse to demand personal responsibility, we have what we see in the inner cities. It’s easier to give things away than make demands.

Are you proud?

HighEliteMajor said:

@benshawks08 Please note the distinction. “Inner city black culture.” It has nothing to do with my black neighbor.

Inner city black culture. You know what it is. I know what it is. We all know what it is. You can turn your back on it, cry racism. I don’t give one good d*** what you think about me.

I care about our country. The absolute violence and carnage brought on our country by the inner city black culture is astounding and unmatched. Don’t talk to me about the 1800s or 1930, or whatever. This is today.

Look at Late Night at AFH and the disgusting show put on in the name of our university. All in the name of ATTRACTING the black athlete. We should all be absolutely embarrassed. This is what is needed to gets kids to sign? Disgusting.

I watched suburban kids try to mimic the disgusting culture. Pants hanging halfway down their a** — an inner city black culture invention to glorify the gangster in jail that has no belt and can’t keep his pants up. Just beautiful.

More importantly than that, a culture of drive by shootings, random acts of carnage, roaming gangs — a culture where choosing to grab a gun and kill someone is ingrained. Daily. Not here and there. DAILY.

Among blacks, 73% of births are out of wedlock. In the inner city, much higher. That has steadily increased since the 60s. To me, this is the most important cause of the inner city destruction we see now.

Worse, black dads with multiple children, with multiple women. It’s an epidemic in the inner city black communities. Heck, look at our BB teams. Who’s got a dad? Whose dad is in jail. Whose mom has the same last name as her son? How many half brothers and half sisters?

This is the plague of the inner city black culture — the answer to the “why.”

And racism is the problem. What a joke.

So don’t give me this racism crap. I don’t care what you call it. I call it reality.

When I see a buddy of mine, a black surgeon, actively trying to keep his kids AWAY from the inner city black culture, that is a huge answer for me. When I hear him discuss it, it cements it.

It’s really sick. We see a “mass” shooting, 10 dead, 20 injured. Horrific. But then we IGNORE the carnage of a single night in Chicago, or a weekend in STL, or you name the Inner city (the deep blue voting areas by no coincidence).

Why? Because the ANSWER makes you uncomfortable. You and others like you operate on feelings. Not facts. You want to normalize abhorrent behavior. You’ll blame everything except the personal behavior.

You are the dangerous enabler. Well intentioned. But when there are so many folks that provide excuses, refuse to demand personal responsibility, we have what we see in the inner cities. It’s easier to give things away than make demands.

Are you proud?

UMM , UMM , UMM

@HighEliteMajor Some people don't like the answers to hard questions. I've been a foster parent for nearly 8 years now and race has no meaning to me so I've had Hispanic children and African American children (I love all children). I've had 3 and a 4 year olds in my house at that were already saying things like "f the police" , "f white people" and several other things that would probably get me removed from this blog. I had very rough upbringing and spent time living in a low income predominantly African American neighborhood. 90% of my friends lived with their moms and their mom didnt have any rules or discipline them. Over 70% of children in the inner will grow up without a father figure. To say abouslutely none of that is their fault is a load of crap. I've always enjoyed watching Judge Joe Brown and more times than I count he has told these young men to "Man up and take care of their children". When I didnt do my home work my step whipped my a** with a leather belt. When my friends didnt, they got no punishment. They didnt get in trouble for skipping school or starting fights. So what happened to some my old friends? One them is in prison for murder, one of them is dead. But there are some that decided they didnt want to live that life. They got jobs and worked, just I like I did. You are in control of what you do, no one else.

@HighEliteMajor Oh I didn’t realize you had a black friend. I retract my claim. You must not be racist.

You ask “WHY” and I really don’t know what you are referring him to. You say I’m afraid of the answer yet I see you didn’t answer any questions of mine. Wonder why that is?

Sorry fellow bucketeers, but my morals prevent me seeing racism and not calling it out. This is some of the most blatant racist ranting I have seen in a while and don’t think we should let it go unanswered.

If your not feeling anything or using your emotional capacity as a human being to impact your thoughts and actions you may need to seek some professional help. Emotions aren’t bad. They are a fairly significant aspect of the human experience.

@kjayhawks I tell my students almost every single day, “the only persons actions you can control are your own” but to say an individual has full autonomy to do whatever they want is just silly. If you didn’t believe your actions could have an influence on those kids, you wouldn’t do what you do. Surely as a foster parent you’ve seen the impacts an environment can have on a child. Thank you for fostering kids of all races, ethnicities and cultures.

It’s tragic the fear and trauma that a small child saying those kinds of things must have endured. Is some of that responsibility shared by the parent. Of course. Is it also shared by police and white people? Probably.

@benshawks08 Actions without proper consequences are part of the problem. Every situation is different and yes sometimes a white person is very well responsible for some of those issues. I felt that you insinuated that all problems in the inner cities are all on some else. I'm changing my small piece of the world as much a can. I refuse to ever give up on children. I've tried to teach several kids in our care that they can be loved and break the cycle that lays behind them. We have only taken in younger kids and the difference with discipline and love makes is unbelievable. Kids love to have rules, they know you care about them at that point.

@kjayhawks I’m not trying to insinuate that people don’t have agency in their actions. I am trying to make some people think about their own personal responsibility instead of talking only about how this is someone else’s problem. And again, the racism is undeniable, right? Tell me I’m not the only one who sees it for what it is.

@kjayhawks just hope you're not whipping them w/a belt.

@benshawks08 I dont believe @HighEliteMajor is trying to be racist personally. I think he can be harsh for sure though. It is our responsibility a residents in this country and of the world to help whom ever we can. I just wished more people in Washington and these celebrities that claim to care would step up do something besides put their name on gym and never return. If I won the lottery I would spend every dime with children in the inner city, the foster children that age out of care and are left in the street and a big rescue center for animals.

@Crimsonorblue22 It is against the law to punish a foster with physical harm. I dont believe in belts. Standing the corner is my go to, then explaining to them in matter they can relate to as to why it was wrong.

@kjayhawks I’d hope most people aren’t trying to be racist in 2019. I’m sure most don’t feel they are but it doesn’t mean the things they say and do aren’t. Being accidentally racist doesn’t make someone a bad person. Now, having it pointed out and continuing without changing starts a different story. An open mind is a wonderful thing. Open to learning about others and most importantly learning about ourselves.

@Crimsonorblue22 honestly I'm against spanking in general. I don't want my children to fear failure or feel like they will be physically attacked. I want my kids to understand mentally what's right and wrong.

@Crimsonorblue22 The personal responsibility folks are going to lose it over this, but research shows punishment in general has a negative impact on future behavior. Positive reinforcement is much better at eliminating negative behaviors. Same for dogs, kids and adults.

Decision is do you want to feel good about punishing someone or do you want to change the behavior. For some people the feeling is more important.

You don't need money to make a difference, look at @wissox. I'm sure he could be working somewhere else and making much more money. It's on his heart to work w/inner city kids, not continually gripe about them. He is making a difference, as well as @benshawks08 wherever he is teaching. There are probably more good people on here that are teachers, coaches and/or mentors to kids.

@benshawks08 It's easy to cry racist. Simple minded, of course. Easy. The "go to" when facts get in the way. I knew of course when I mentioned my black friend, and I have one, you'd make that comment. I have another that I consider a friend, an architect, but we've not been in contact as our kids went to different high schools. Your simplistic mocking of that portion of my comment truly defines your shallowness on this topic. That's leftist playbook 101.

Oh, emotions are good. They can many time lead to the correct conclusions. But here, your (and others) emotions and feelings drive you away from facts and logic. Your empathy for human suffering, for kids that did nothing to cause their plight, blind you to the "why." You and others are overwhelmed by that.

Your convulsive "racist" claims of course define your approach to the facts. Facts you can't refute. Realities you can't refute.

And in your response to @kjayhawks, don't try this, "oh, it happens with white people" stuff. Of course it does. Everything does. We all know that. White people are thugs too. All races. The worst killers in world history have been white -- Hitler and Stalin. That culture was toxic and horrific.

We're talking here and now in America. And we're talking percentages and degrees. That's what's important. Where is the core of violence, who commits it, and why? That's what we're talking about.

In 1964, 24% of black kids were born out of wedlock. Last stat known, it was 73% for black kids now (and much higher in the inner city). For whites, it's about 28% last I saw. If pointing out that troubling reality, and the horrific conduct that is part of the inner city black culture, is racist by your definition, fine.

If you don't have parents in the home, teaching the proper lessons, what chance does a kid have?

We spend out time wringing our hands over the mass shootings (which are of course horrible too) but we see very little about the inner city carnage? I little kid is shot on his porch and it's on the third page of the paper. Three get shot and because it's drug related, we gloss over it. As a conservative, every life is important to me. Every one. And the constant dismissal of this conduct and violence as back page news, or no news, is just repulsive to me.

Finally, your post above, "racism is undeniable." Correct. That's easy. But it's again percentages and degrees. Now, we're in a much different world and have been for quite a while. There will always be racism. So you always have that to fall back on. Try thinking. Analyzing. Searching for why. Past racism is a part of that answer. I don't deny that, and never have.

But that excuse/rationale is every decreasing and is now far, far outweighed by opportunity. But when the opportunity is not seized, when folks commit crimes and fail, they rely on you (and others like you) for the ever present excuse -- racism. It will always be there for you. Everything with you comes back to racism and that is, by itself, completely illogical.

@benshawks08 I absolutely hate parents that are excited to spank their kids. My step father was that way. He jump up with a smile on his face and sprint to the belt. Sick SOB he was but that's another topic.

@benshawks08 agree!

@Crimsonorblue22 my wife taught in the some of the rough public schools in St. Louis for several years. We do what we can for sure.

@HighEliteMajor @benshawks08 That is the issue for me, I do not claim any side when it comes to politics. But right now there is no middle. If I disagree with a Democrat I'm a racist and a Nazi. Which is sickening to compare someone to Hitler or a Nazi. I'll have to try and find a article that a holocaust survivor wrote about insulting that is to them.

@HighEliteMajor I only “cry racism” when you write racist things. It’s not every answer but it is an answer you refuse to accept. I ask again where you are getting these percentages not as an argumentative tool but as one of curiosity. Just curious about your source.

Poverty, violence, trauma, racism are cycles and systems that continually feed themselves.

And you are definitely right that opportunity is a huge part of the answer. And just like there are percentages and degrees with racism, those same percentages and degrees exist with opportunity. Does everyone have an opportunity? Sure. The same opportunity? As many opportunities? That’s where you and I don’t see eye to eye.

And no I will never turn off my empathy. I’d encourage you to turn yours up a few notches but you are of course free to do and think what you choose.

If you really care about every life, which I truly think is an honest belief you hold, do some research about work being done to help people and consider funding some with that big salary you try so hard to hold onto. Assigning blame doesn’t actually fix anything.

Appreciation to @Crimsonorblue22 and @kjayhawks and all the others for doing the work.

It's CULTURE not race. A few hundred years from now history books will look back at this time and use it as an example that multiculturalism doesn't work. If you think you are different you are either ignorant or naive. If you think its taught then look at any school cafeteria and see how kids congregate with similar cultures. In school culture is jocks, nerds, artsy types, etc. In real life it's religion, political belief, family background and culture. Cultures will ALWAYS clash.

Race is the #1 determining factor in predicting success of students in education. There are other factors but race is #1. Look at test scores, graduation rate, degrees earned, anything.

You can draw two conclusions from that data:
The educational system does not serve all students equally based on race.

Or

Students who are not white are not as capable of success.

Hint: the second one is racist.

@benshawks08 clearly institutionalized problems don't exist and these non white kids are simply... Yeah I can't even finish this as a joke.

BigBad said:

It's CULTURE not race. A few hundred years from now history books will look back at this time and use it as an example that multiculturalism doesn't work. If you think you are different you are either ignorant or naive. If you think its taught then look at any school cafeteria and see how kids congregate with similar cultures. In school culture is jocks, nerds, artsy types, etc. In real life it's religion, political belief, family background and culture. Cultures will ALWAYS clash.

Exactly. Right on point. The issue I've discussed deals specifically with what is born from the inner city black culture. There are millions of blacks that don't subscribe. There are millions of non-blacks that do. Culture. Jason Whitlock described it as cultural rot.

But that doesn't mean there aren't other cultural issues that are highly problematic. One that is obvious to me is the rural white meth culture here in mid-America. But you don't see near the level of violence, not even close.

HighEliteMajor said:

benshawks08 said:

@HighEliteMajor @bskeet It's racism. That's the point you both are bouncing around but never actually touching. White people hate talking about racism because they can't win anymore. One of you (@bskeet ) understands at least innately if not explicitly that a big factor in this argument is the race a significant population of the players compared to the race of the significant population of the people in power. And so in your arguments you bring up former instances of racism like slavery.

The other (@HighEliteMajor ) definitely understands the racial element but seeks to remove it completely from the conversation because it's "social justice garbage" and if he pretends race isn't really a factor he can live in his land of logic where humanity is just weak feelings crap.
Anytime someone suggests an idea that might redistribute power from top down, those in power (or at least those that look like those in power) do what they can to maintain that power.

Of course college basketball and slavery aren't the same thing. Of course there is more choice for a college athlete today than for a slave in the 1800s or for current slaves today in the american penal system. However the RACISM driving the issue and argument is very much the same. It is impossible to discuss the conflict between a workforce made up primarily of people of color and executives who are primarily white without discussing race. I know it's scary for us whites but we'd be better off it we'd just call it like it is and talk about the stuff we are afraid of.

Some people aren't going to like this comment because it brings "politics" into a sports conversation but sorry, race is one of the biggest issues in sports right now. White sports fans look at black athletes making millions of dollars or getting "free rides" and think those folks should feel lucky, but ignore the white owners and execs making 100s of millions of dollars and maintaining systems that uphold that economic inequity. I'm sure HEM will argue that the owners "earned" those millions by working harder and being smarter. They didn't. They aren't.

Bam. You have said exactly what I've suggested. In my mind, it's all about the poor inner city black kid. That is the core of what has driven this issue.

And I'm sorry, I'm not going to permit my life, my thoughts, my actions, and my concerns to be predicated upon a culture that refuses to help themselves -- more appropriately, a self-destructive culture.

Rahm Emanuel, an Obama democrat, the former mayor of Chicago that saw this inner city "culture" firsthand, said:

“This may not be politically correct,” he said, “but I know the power of what faith and family can do. … Our kids need that structure. … I am asking … that we also don’t shy away from a full discussion about the importance of family and faith helping to develop and nurture character, self-respect, a value system and a moral compass that allows kids to know good from bad and right from wrong.”

He added: “If we’re going to solve this … we’ve got to have a real discussion. … Parts of the conversation cannot be off-limits because it’s not politically comfortable. … We are going to discuss issues that have been taboo in years past because they are part of the solution. … We also have a responsibility to help nurture character. It plays a role. Our kids need that moral structure in their lives. And we cannot be scared to have this conversation.”

Of course, there was anger in response, marching, verbal attacks, etc. Zero ... I mean zero ... mention of personal responsibility from the "other side" of this issue.

I would say that our country would be much better off if we can take what @benshawks08 said, and what Rahm Emanuel said, and honestly address what ails our inner city.

A big hint -- the discussion has nothing to do with blaming inanimate objects.

As I've said over and over, CHOICE.

Look at my bi-line. "What in America is anyone prohibited from doing, earning, or achieving?" This is what America offers in 2019. Undeniable.

As a conservative, I've had it. I've had with the glorification of a bankrupt culture (inner city black culture) and with the continued garbage we deal with day in, and day out. To the core of my beliefs, people that hurt people, commit carnage, destroy lives, and have no morality are enemy. They are the enemy of a civil society. I don't care what they look like. Yet we want to explain away, continually, the repulsive and destructive behavior. It's disgusting.

I am not afraid to discuss anything, even - oh no! - race (though I think that it should be reserved for political boards, which I do not participate in). The constant but this and but that habbit that this nation so loves while trying to paint over issues is getting old and pathetic. "Yeah,,, but there is a reason for that!"

"True," I say, "there may be, but the thing that we are talking about is still there, regardless."

HighEliteMajor said:

@benshawks08 Please note the distinction. “Inner city black culture.” It has nothing to do with my black neighbor.

Inner city black culture. You know what it is. I know what it is. We all know what it is. You can turn your back on it, cry racism. I don’t give one good d*** what you think about me.

I care about our country. The absolute violence and carnage brought on our country by the inner city black culture is astounding and unmatched. Don’t talk to me about the 1800s or 1930, or whatever. This is today.

Look at Late Night at AFH and the disgusting show put on in the name of our university. All in the name of ATTRACTING the black athlete. We should all be absolutely embarrassed. This is what is needed to gets kids to sign? Disgusting.

I watched suburban kids try to mimic the disgusting culture. Pants hanging halfway down their a** — an inner city black culture invention to glorify the gangster in jail that has no belt and can’t keep his pants up. Just beautiful.

More importantly than that, a culture of drive by shootings, random acts of carnage, roaming gangs — a culture where choosing to grab a gun and kill someone is ingrained. Daily. Not here and there. DAILY.

Among blacks, 73% of births are out of wedlock. In the inner city, much higher. That has steadily increased since the 60s. To me, this is the most important cause of the inner city destruction we see now.

Worse, black dads with multiple children, with multiple women. It’s an epidemic in the inner city black communities. Heck, look at our BB teams. Who’s got a dad? Whose dad is in jail. Whose mom has the same last name as her son? How many half brothers and half sisters?

This is the plague of the inner city black culture — the answer to the “why.”

And racism is the problem. What a joke.

So don’t give me this racism crap. I don’t care what you call it. I call it reality.

When I see a buddy of mine, a black surgeon, actively trying to keep his kids AWAY from the inner city black culture, that is a huge answer for me. When I hear him discuss it, it cements it.

It’s really sick. We see a “mass” shooting, 10 dead, 20 injured. Horrific. But then we IGNORE the carnage of a single night in Chicago, or a weekend in STL, or you name the Inner city (the deep blue voting areas by no coincidence).

Why? Because the ANSWER makes you uncomfortable. You and others like you operate on feelings. Not facts. You want to normalize abhorrent behavior. You’ll blame everything except the personal behavior.

You are the dangerous enabler. Well intentioned. But when there are so many folks that provide excuses, refuse to demand personal responsibility, we have what we see in the inner cities. It’s easier to give things away than make demands.

Are you proud?

You have offered your opinion, and a well worded thought out one I might add. You have the right to your opinion, and I see nothing wrong with it. Again, ignoring problems is one of this nation's true weaknesses.

Now I will offer one, the inner city should not be glorified because they are what they are - places that people do not want to live in (even those who live there.

benshawks08 said:

@HighEliteMajor I only “cry racism” when you write racist things. It’s not every answer but it is an answer you refuse to accept. I ask again where you are getting these percentages not as an argumentative tool but as one of curiosity. Just curious about your source.

Poverty, violence, trauma, racism are cycles and systems that continually feed themselves.

And you are definitely right that opportunity is a huge part of the answer. And just like there are percentages and degrees with racism, those same percentages and degrees exist with opportunity. Does everyone have an opportunity? Sure. The same opportunity? As many opportunities? That’s where you and I don’t see eye to eye.

And no I will never turn off my empathy. I’d encourage you to turn yours up a few notches but you are of course free to do and think what you choose.

If you really care about every life, which I truly think is an honest belief you hold, do some research about work being done to help people and consider funding some with that big salary you try so hard to hold onto. Assigning blame doesn’t actually fix anything.

Appreciation to @Crimsonorblue22 and @kjayhawks and all the others for doing the work.

There are multiple sources for the unwed births, below are just a few. I got the 24% in 1960s from the Brookings study.

The big salary you say I try to hold onto is one that I earn. I don't actually earn a "salary." I earn money. What I earn I get (with all the risks and anxiety of running a business including making sure I can pay my employees). You don't worry about that. But I know that you have other worries -- worries nonetheless.

Assigning blame does fix problems. See, you're a schoolteacher. Good for you. I'm not. I am to find solutions to problems, which is critical to my job, and I have ask "why". In fact, that is at the core of our disagreement. In your position, you don't have to ask why. You are in the position of simply helping. In my business, if I don't solve problems, I'm out of work. I have to ask why. To solve this, we have to ask why. I would also offer that in the pursuit of truth, the question of "why" is key to that endeavor.

And thus you can review the statistics on the issue that drives teh "why" in 2019, that you don't seem to appreciate.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/77-black-births-to-single-moms-49-for-hispanic-immigrants ↗

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/jul/29/don-lemon/cnns-don-lemon-says-more-72-percent-african-americ/ ↗

https://yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/out-wedlock-births-rise-worldwide ↗

https://www.brookings.edu/research/an-analysis-of-out-of-wedlock-births-in-the-united-states/ ↗

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/39993685/ns/health-womens_health/t/blacks-struggle-percent-unwed-mothers-rate/#.XZjrAoV7aEw ↗

There is no clear cut racism. If you hate one group of people, you hate other people as well.

You either love people or you hate people. The color that you hate can change daily.

@HighEliteMajor We are both talking about our reasons for why. As the lowly school teacher you seem to have so little respect for it might surprise you that I too solve problems every day.

So just so I understand your stance, single black mothers are the biggest problem in our nation. And the reason they are single parents is “black culture.” And this is the driving force of the debate regarding paying ncaa athletes. And none of that has anything to do with racism or white people because “choice.” That about right?

benshawks08 said:

Race is the #1 determining factor in predicting success of students in education. There are other factors but race is #1. Look at test scores, graduation rate, degrees earned, anything.

You can draw two conclusions from that data:
The educational system does not serve all students equally based on race.

Or

Students who are not white are not as capable of success.

Hint: the second one is racist.

You might ask "why." You don't want to.

You offer only two conclusions, the concept of which is self-serving and nonsensical. The fact that you posed it this ways indicates that you have no interest in the truth. And it's funny, you say you don't want to assign blame but you blame racism. Hmmm.

Of course, Asians achieve, educationally, superior to whites in America. Did you know that?

Why not ask why?

It's interesting that poverty is linked to out of wedlock births. https://www.usnews.com/news/newsgram/articles/2013/05/06/census-bureau-links-poverty-with-out-of-wedlock-births ↗

And what do you know, Asians out of wedlock births are around 17.7 %. Way lower that white, hispanics, and blacks. One of a number of sources. https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/latest-statistics-out-wedlock-births-roger-clegg/ ↗

Guess who makes more money than whites? Right. Asians,
https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/visualizations/2018/demo/p60-263/figure1.pdf ↗

Positing a theory here. Asians have mom and dad in the home. Asians have stricter discipline. Asians' culture fosters achievement. Asians have more humility. Asians are smarter. Asians don't dish out blame for failure.

When I compare, I compare to myself -- to whites.

We should not be scared or afraid to talk about this stuff. We should not be intimidated by folks like @benshawks08 and his ilk. I'm not. They try to intimidate to stop discussion by crying racist, because most folks fear that label. Not me. Truth is more important.

benshawks08 said:

@HighEliteMajor We are both talking about our reasons for why. As the lowly school teacher you seem to have so little respect for it might surprise you that I too solve problems every day.

So just so I understand your stance, single black mothers are the biggest problem in our nation. And the reason they are single parents is “black culture.” And this is the driving force of the debate regarding paying ncaa athletes. And none of that has anything to do with racism or white people because “choice.” That about right?

Actually, the inner city culture has fostered a significant lack of responsibility by black men. All you have to do is look at the stats. Killings, assaults, violence are part of the story. Multiple kids with multiple women is another part. Again, we see it every day. A culture of violence and moral deprivation. I'm not giving inner city black women a free pass. Far from it. They are part of the culture.

But it is the women that have a raise the kids. They bear the burden. But the men move on. It is an epidemic in the black community.

And black women don't kill and maim like black men. They are the single most violent and dangerous group in America. Period. Undeniable.

The driving force for paying athletes is the continued, collective weeping for the poor inner city black (male) athlete. The continued blather of how he's treated unfairly. So, because of that perception, everything in college sports has to change. That's what drives the entire discussion, the interest from pro athletes, etc.

In fact, the amount of collective time our society spends dealing with the continued issues of inner city black men could be a singular course offering on "opportunity cost."

@HighEliteMajor and is the color of Asians skins closer to that of white people or black people? Were Asians systematically brought to this country as slaves? Asians have certainly faced a good share of racism in this country but by percentages and degrees it is far less than the systematic oppression of black people.

Also, what discussion have I stopped or even attempted to stop? I’ve engaged with questions in almost every post encouraging the conversation. Please at least try to be intellectually honest and engage in good faith conversation.

Thanks for the links to the stats.

@HighEliteMajor Ok, so it’s also and mostly black men and really if you think about it they aren’t even worth the trouble. Got it.

And how often are those black men stopped by the police? If police stopped white people at the same rate how many white men would be in prison for low level drug charges?

You want some why questions to work on?
Why in 2019 is there still not equal pay for equal work? Might employers like yourself bare any personal responsibility for that? Nah probably not. I’ve yet to see you take any of that personal responsibility you seem to love so much for anything.

benshawks08 said:

@HighEliteMajor and is the color of Asians skins closer to that of white people or black people? Were Asians systematically brought to this country as slaves? Asians have certainly faced a good share of racism in this country but by percentages and degrees it is far less than the systematic oppression of black people.

Also, what discussion have I stopped or even attempted to stop? I’ve engaged with questions in almost every post encouraging the conversation. Please at least try to be intellectually honest and engage in good faith conversation.

Thanks for the links to the stats.

Asians have achieved more by race than whites. More.

Pretty funny. Now you say, oh, Asians skin color is closer so, you know ... they're ok. You folks will do/say anything to deflect personal responsibility. Heck, I listened to it for years with the mayor of KC constantly blaming guns for the violence problems in inner city KC. That's intellectual dishonesty. But it's everything except the inner city black thug that shoots the little kid on the patio.

Intellectually honest? You and others of your ilk refuse to think outside of the racist box. I, on the other hand, certain consider that as part of the overall analysis. But in 2019, that is not in the top five of reasons "why."

Intellectually honest? When someone claims racism, and racist rants, that has what is termed a "chilling" effect on debate. No one want wants to be called a racist. It's considered pretty vile. So when you say that one's position is racist that's the effect. Try to figure that out.

benshawks08 said:

@HighEliteMajor Ok, so it’s also and mostly black men and really if you think about it they aren’t even worth the trouble. Got it.

And how often are those black men stopped by the police? If police stopped white people at the same rate how many white men would be in prison for low level drug charges?

You want some why questions to work on?
Why in 2019 is there still not equal pay for equal work? Might employers like yourself bare any personal responsibility for that? Nah probably not. I’ve yet to see you take any of that personal responsibility you seem to love so much for anything.

So, it's the fault of the police. Because they are arresting criminals. Another in the playbook.

One thing you and again, others of your ilk ignore -- the necessary level of policing to keep the inner city areas from being the next version of Escape from New York.

Here, in Johnson County, I barely see a police officer. If I have drugs, my likelihood of getting pulled over is very limited. Why? Because we're not engaged in ritualistic violence day in, and day out. But somehow that gets translated into unfairness to blacks.

In the inner city, there has to be a heavy police presence -- if not, the inner city thugs would wreak even more destruction. More police needed, more police deployed, more possible contact with the police, more actual contact with the police, more criminals caught. It's comical, the good folks in the inner city want more police and protection. The good, hard working inner city folks are the ones that suffer most. Check the black on black inner city crime stats. Killing and maiming each other at alarming rates. Undeniable. You lose again.

Every time I debate one of "you", I'm continually shocked by the shallowness of thought on these topics. You say things that I'm sure you and your little leftist buddies chuckle about, and wring your hands, but it's no different than the folks we see presented in the media today -- if you are actually confronted with reality, you have nothing. Ah, nothing but "you're a racist."

I'm done. Good evening. You get the last word.

@HighEliteMajor Unfortunately according to statistics and facts racism still is #1.

When have I or anyone else ever said a person who shoots another person holds no responsibility for that action?

I’d argue more people are turned off by your blatant racism than my calling it out.

You try to bully people out of a discussion with wordiness and aggression. You’re very comfortable judging others and rarely if ever look inward. You routinely generalize about people while talking about the importance of the individual. You generalize about race, political affiliation, socioeconomic status and anything else you can think of the paint entire groups of people as the same so that you don’t have to think at all about your contribution to any problem. It’s always them and they.

For me people aren’t racist but actions, words, systems and policies often are. Enjoy your perfectly safe neighborhood and have a good evening.

Systemic racism is still alive and well in this country whether people choose to admit it or not. It is still a much bigger problem in this country than either the left of the right wants to admit. The government doesn't want to change the system that's been in place for decades because then they lose their power and lose their ability to control inner city culture.

How long has gun violence been an issue in Chicago? How much funding does the Chicago public school system get in proportion to other suburban districts in the Chicago area?

There are lots of issues in inner city culture. I'm sure anyone who has ever taught or worked closely with that community has a lot of personal stories about kids who were smart enough to get the grades and stay out of trouble to be able to attend college, but we're unable to due to circumstances beyond their control.

At the school I work at, about 1/3 of my students still don't have internet in their homes or any type of computer including a smartphone or tablet. My school district doesn't have the funding to provide class sets of technology (laptops or tablets), let alone 1:1 technology like just about every suburban district in the area has. Whenever my district has a training promoting the latest computer based program to "help" those kids play catch up, my first question to those people is always how will that program benefit those students who have teachers that don't have technology in their classrooms for each student and those students have no technology at home. Their answers are typically along the lines of saying a student can stay after school for tutoring. Seems like a reasonable answer until the variable that most of those students are the ones that can't stay because they have to go home immediately after school because their parents work multiple jobs and aren't home to prepare dinner for the younger siblings who can't take care of themselves. Those Professional Development people typically don't have a good answer for that one.

Then, when it comes time for standardized testing, these are the districts that typically perform the lowest on those scores. When those districts perform poorly, they lose funding and that money goes to higher performing districts. Here in Houston, HISD (biggest district in Texas and 8th biggest nationally based on enrollment last I checked) has shut down about 15 schools in last couple of years due to a lack of funding.

When the system in place is telling those kids that your school isn't worth funding and providing you with a safe place to get an education to get out the cycle of poverty, then those kids grow up not trusting that same system, most people act surprised by that.

If the system truly wanted to change and actually make a real difference in inner city culture and make a real difference, states would start giving out more funding to lower performing schools instead of less funding to the point those kid's schools are closing leaving them fewer and fewer options to escape that situation. Providing a bigger percentage of funding to inner city districts won't pay off in the short term because change takes time. It's a long term investment the government doesn't want to make because the inner city culture is an easy scapegoat for a lot of hot button issues in this country.

Whenever you do hear about a kid making it out of that life and out of the inner city for good, you never hear that they did it on their own. There was always someone to help that kid out whether it was a teacher, counselor, coach, family member, or some kind of mentor to keep that kid accountable to help that kid navigate things no one in their family knows anything about.

Those kids that make are also the same one that are most likely to go right back into that community to pay it forward. As far as a specific KU example goes, Ben McLemore is a perfect example of someone who made it out of the inner city (not on his own) and now gives back because he has the means to. His goal is to be that inspiration for others to make out of inner city St. Louis by providing an easier path for those kids that wouldn't have existed otherwise.

Warrick Dunn and DeShaun Watson is another great example of what paying it forward can do. For those who don't know the story, Warrick Dunn's mom was a police officer in Baton Rogue and was murdered during an armed robbery while she was off duty helping a woman make a bank deposit. After Dunn made some money in the NFL, he began a charity organization that providing homes to single moms and one of those homes went to current Houston Texans QB DeShaun Watson's family. Does Watson make it to Clemson or the NFL without that assistance? Maybe, maybe not, but the odds increased significantly when his mom received that home and moved out of inner city Atlanta.

Black people in this country could vote in elections beginning in 1870. Southern white people didn't believe that people that had been their slaves until 5 years prior were worthy of that honor and privilege so that created a barrier to vote in the form of literacy tests and poll taxes. The polling administrators were free to waive these barriers whenever they pleased and our legal system said that's not an issue. If you Google those literacy tests, one of the first one's to come up is the literacy test used in the state of Louisiana in the 1950's and 1960's. It states that the test taker has 10 minutes to complete 30 questions and must get every question correct in order to vote. It claims to be a test at the 5th grade level so I give it to my 7th graders every year during a unit on the Reconstruction era of US history, specifically when teaching them about Jim Crow laws. I have yet to have a student meet the criteria to vote. I didn't even pass it the first time I took and had to look up a couple of answers to that test. The academic language in that test is absolutely at a 5th grade level, but that test was worded in a very confusing manner to purposely trip up those who were forced to take that test.

Another example here in Texas has to deal the STAAR test which is the name of the state standardized test in Texas. I forget which grade level it was exactly, but it an early elementary question that asked students to identify what a bed was. Seems simple enough right? It's not because the answer choices were all pictures and two of the answer choices were a picture of a couch and the floor. For inner city kids, a lot of them choose either the couch or the floor. Does that make those kids dumb that chose those answers? A lot of people would say yes, but no, those kids aren't dumb. When some of those kids were asked why they chose the "wrong" answer, their responses were very telling and showed they weren't dumb. A lot of them responded that they knew a bed is where someone sleeps at night and that those kids that chose "wrong" didn't choose wrong, they chose the couch or the floor because that's where they sleep at night because the don't have a bed in manner the question was asking.

In this country the decked is still stacked against black people and black communities. Not as stacked as it was 60 years ago, but it's still stacked against them in many ways people don't realize.

I have a co-worker name De'Eric. Before becoming a teacher he worked a 9-5 corporate job as some kind of investor or CPA. He was a very successful at his job pulling in over 100k a year (mostly commission). He said didn't have much opportunity for advancement because he worked for a small firm that was family owned and ran. He was looking to move up the ladder and his current company was supportive of him in that was the culture of that company to help fresh out of college kids who didn't want to work for one of the major investment companies. As he starts applying to other positions, he's not getting very many call backs. One of the jobs he applied to that he never got an interview with was given to someone he knew who was much less qualified for that position. He's still looking and he sees that position come available again a couple of months later so he applied again. That second time though, he changed his name on his resume from De'Eric to just Eric and got an interview a couple of days later. At that interview he asked why he didn't get an interview the first time around and the interviewer got extremely defensive about the matter, especially when De'Eric brought up that he was a classmate of the previous person who was fired after about 2 months and knew was unqualified for that position. I don't remember all the details, but it basically boiled down the people at the company he was applying to didn't like how black sounding his name was.

After that interview is when De'Eric said he made the decision that he was going to become a teacher at an inner city district so he could help young black kids out a d be a role model for them.

@HighEliteMajor, while you yourself may not be a racist, a lot of your beliefs about how things are and should be like the NCAA not changing to adapt to the current culture and needs is showing support for a system that is still designed to keep the playing field unequal for black people.

Black people were oppressed for over 300 years in this country. Trusting a system that has allowed black people to be exploited, even still today in some areas, does not go away in 50 years. It takes time and effort and the system in place in this country is still oppressing black culture.

Do black people in America have opportunity in this country? Yes. Do they have the same opportunities that white people in this country have? Absolutely not.

Can the NCAA help inner city culture by altering their rules? Absolutely, but they choose not to because there's still quite a few high ranking members who grew up when segregation was still legal and still have a mindset that black people are inferior even if they'll never admit to it because they're smart enough not to admit to it for fear of losing their cushy jobs.

@Texas-Hawk-10 sorry I left you out of the teachers that help kids! Thanks for making a difference!

@Texas-Hawk-10 There is a lot to digest from this post but wow that 1/3 number of kids with no easy internet access is shocking to me.

This video does a good job of showing what systemic racism in this country looks like today and explaining the obstacles that black people in this country still deal with that white people do not have to deal with.

@Texas-Hawk-10 That's powerful.

@Texas-Hawk-10 Great post! Just one thing that happened the other day. I had to call a kids dad because the kid was not doing well in class. I heard the dad ask "which school does he go to?" I was shocked. Doesn't mean the kid can't get it someday, but he has lost the influence of the father, lost the role model a father provides for work, how to treat people, how to maintain a car. He'll probably not have any expectation of inheritances. I could go and on but one anecdote like that says a lot.

By the way thanks for the literacy test idea, I might try it next unit.

Cultural rot and violence is and always will be one groups fault. WEAK MEN! People bring up Chicago violence and single black mothers. The truth is that REAL MEN would step up and clean up their community and father their children. Instead WEAK MEN don't and then blame systematic racism or some other bull shit excuse from being a real man. College basketball is going to shit because the coaches are becoming weak men. Strong men move on from a recruit who obviously want money. Strong men don't recruit kids who cant fight their own battles and become a strong man themselves. Strong men don't need CRAP entertainment to entice recruits. Strong men understand delayed gratification and don't need to BE PAID right now!

An old phrase is exactly right:

Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men.

We are in the last sentence of that. WAY too many weak men around.

@Texas-Hawk-10

Google "race in evaluating names in resumes" for lots of interesting results in studies of how many interview requests were received for identical resumes with Africanized names vs Anglocized names.

One related interesting result comes up with that search: a woman who received no job interviews until she used a man's name on her resumes.

Your posts are always nicely thought out and logical. Same with @benshawks08 and @wissox. Thank you all for being on the front lines.

Sorry bud but names are a DIRECT REFLECTION on IQ! If I moved to a foreign country and planned to stay there I'd name my child a name that would help guarantee he/she would be seen as a part of the culture. If you want to buck the culture then deal with the consequences of that and STFU! A smart person does what they can to help their child succeed. Naming your child a stupid name is exactly that, STUPID!

@BigBad When you're having a baby at age 15 do you think you're equipped to give a baby a good name? Not all of my kids were born to young mothers, but a lot were. Just a tip, when you type STFU it really detracts from whatever kind of point you were trying to make.

Doomed to my low IQ life as "Dan, Dan, the Drywall Man" by birth, I've often wished my parents had named me something that would reflect my potential IQ, like Terrance, Srinivasa, or Nikola, or Lebron... but no, they didn't want to buck the culture.

I've got a lot to say about this since public policy & education are my areas of expertise, but I'll try to stay brief. No promises though!

As we ask why, like @HighEliteMajor says we have to do, the answers to this are very complicated. The state has pretty consistently botched creating equality of opportunity in this country, sometimes intentionally, sometimes with the best of intentions. Just a few examples. Jim Crow obviously was the kind of de jure segregation and oppression nobody should find acceptable in a liberal society. As the SCOTUS ruled in 1954, separate cannot be equal. Even today, by some measures school systems are as segregated as they were right after Brown. We know that integration efforts worked at first, especially in the South. After busing declined and the federal government stepped back in the 80's (arguably betraying the mission of Brown), segregation increased.

Why is this important? Schools that are predominantly minority are generally worse than schools that are predominantly white. And school quality has a strong, causal relationship with future market and non-market outcomes. See the evaluation of the Perry Preschool program and the reams of studies evaluating charter schools as examples.

Pre-Brown, state and local governments intentionally underfunded school districts that were majority minority. As an example, (and to @Texas-Hawk-10's point) Texas only spent 83 cents on each black kid for every dollar they spent on whites in 1960. Why? Racism. What happened post-Brown? Magically, funding equalized among schools. Not really magically (it was because legislatures didn't want white kids to have to go to the old, decaying black schools). The other major piece is that higher quality teachers tend to work in wealthier districts. The district could be better at recruiting, offer a different quality of life, or other factors like rich kids being easier to teach than poor ones. Also to @Texas-Hawk-10's point, across the country, poor & minority students receive about 2% more funding than their wealthier counterparts, though it's pretty unlikely that's enough to bridge the actual gap in terms of costs.

Since schools are residentially assigned here in the U.S., controlling who gets to live where has a strong relationship with school quality. As one of the primary channels through which any given individual's opportunity in life is determined, this becomes very important. If we look at data on home ownership and lending, we see that blacks have historically faced severe discrimination in ability to receive mortgages and even if they were able to get a loan, many whites wouldn't sell homes to blacks in good neighborhoods, a set of practices called redlining. Many whites who were dead broke could receive credit where middle- to upper-income blacks couldn't ever get a similar loan.

This meant many blacks who would move couldn't and were stuck in a bad neighborhood and possibly a bad school. In addition, blacks weren't able to access the capital necessary to develop their own neighborhoods. This kind of hopelessness led to many of the societal ills that still exist there. Put simply, the channels to success that exist for whites exist to less of an extent for blacks.

But racism wasn't the only culprit. I'm a libertarian so I'll keep dumping on the state In response to this concentrated poverty (that the government in large part created) they tried to fix it with the War on Poverty and related efforts. Some of the programs were effective (SS and Medicare greatly reduced senior poverty, but have severe issues with solvency, thanks Boomers). One major program was AFDC, a means tested cash benefits program for families who had a male in the house who was unable to work for whatever reason. The program was started in the 30's, but black women weren't allowed to access it until the 60's! Crazy. The program was wrought with administrative issues as well. It discouraged marriage since benefits could be cut if a beneficiary married someone with higher income. This drives some of the increase in out of wedlock births among those with low income (who are more likely to be black.) In addition, the phaseout of benefits was very sharp, which discouraged anyone to work since the marginal tax rate (when including lost benefits) became extremely high, more than 100% in some cases.

And we couldn't talk about failed wars without bringing up the giant cash fire known as the War on Drugs (and the criminal justice system as a whole). Let's use a specific example. Why does possession of crack cocaine carry much more severe sentences (about 1/3 longer) than powder? Could it have anything to do with the fact that crack is more commonly found in majority black neighborhoods and powder is more common to white neighborhoods? Even though powder cocaine is worth much more in street value? Not difficult dots to connect there. Another question. Why do blacks get pulled over at nearly twice the rate of whites, even controlling for factors like type of car, even though whites are more likely to carry contraband? Another fun fact: marijuana prohibition was largely based on the fear that blacks would "entice" white women to become addicted to weed. That legacy remains. Blacks are 4x as likely to be arrested for weed possession as whites even though they use at essentially the same rate. Blacks are 12x (!) as likely to be falsely convicted of drug crimes as whites. The U.S. Sentencing Commission found that, even controlling for other observables, blacks were given 20% longer sentences than whites for identical charges. Want a really huge part of family breakup and why young, black men have issues as a group? No wonder they don't trust the institutions.

So what's the result of all this? Well, glad you asked. Look at the maps here: https://www.opportunityatlas.org. ↗ It tells the story that both private and state actions have created a perverse kind of inequality in this country where it's a lot harder for the average black kid to succeed in this country than the average white kid. When society continually beats a set of people down for, like, no reason it's perfectly predictable that that set of people will have problems. One surely wouldn't expect an abused kid to have the same outcomes as one from a perfectly healthy and safe family.

So what do we do about it? I've got a couple ideas. In a paper that hopefully will come out soon, I argue for universal school choice for every student in the country. If we believe primary and secondary education is positive right in this country (most states have constitutional provisions stating such) that it makes sense to allow people the freedom to exercise this right however they want, and allow for the marketplace to work to improve school quality, like we see in the charter sector. As these schools have grown and matured (and been allowed to innovate) their outcomes have gotten better. Now, it's rare to find negative outcomes of charters, even with the strongest experimental designs.

Second, I believe strongly that we should repeal the entirety of the current welfare state and replace it with a universal basic income. The math works out to about even if we give everyone $800/month, deposited into a bank account, as soon as they graduate high school or turn 18, whichever is first. That's enough to get above the poverty line for a couple and drastically increase bank usage.

Third, decouple employment and health care. Because of a quirk of WWII tax law, employer sponsored health benefits aren't taxed like income, incentivizing employers to pay for health insurance instead of increasing salary. Replace it with expanded HSA's or something similar. It would increase job mobility since your health insurance would be portable and not tied to your employment.

These three things have a common purpose: empower the individual to take control of their lives and live up to their potential unimpeded by the state. Other things like opportunity zones could help attract capital to the areas that need it.

Finally, everyone should read this book: https://www.amazon.com/Dignity-Seeking-Respect-Back-America/dp/0525534733/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=chris+arnade&qid=1551149213&s=gateway&sr=8-1. ↗ The author did the unthinkable: he went out and talked to people! Crazy thing to do these days. It really drives home the point that people in large swaths of the country feel neglected and hopeless, so they turn to drugs or other vices to escape.

Anyhoo, I've said too much. Have a lovely evening, everyone.

@FarmerJayhawk The devastating effects of redlining should be taught to Americans. I'm ashamed that nothing in my world made me aware of it until about 10 years ago. Chicago or Milwaukee depending on whose methodology you believe are the most segregated cities in the country. They perfected the practice of redlining and much of the inner city woes of both places can be traced back to it.

I really believe your post and a few others above contain perspectives that most Americans have little understanding of. As I admitted, I was really unaware of these things until about 10 years ago. It certainly changes perspectives when you start to have an understanding of what ways so many have been intentionally kept down.

@FarmerJayhawk I read an something interesting but I can’t remember where that posited if we took all the money the government spends trying to decide who qualifies for certain benefits and making sure no one accidentally gets too much, there’s be enough left over to provide services to nearly everyone.

Never heard a libertarian arguing for universal income. Is that just a you thing or common among others you know? I’ll be asking my libertarian friends.

School choice worries me a bit because of the way some people have used that phrase to support the privatization of schools but I’d love to read your paper about it and learn more about your point of view.

Thanks for sharing and let me know when that paper comes out!

@FarmerJayhawk Another example in Texas of holding minorities down and a contributing factor in the disparity of conviction rates and sentence lengths is the prison system. I can't speak on other states, but in Texas, most prisons are privately owned and operated. They are also among the richest and most powerful lobby groups in the state. They don't make money by rehabbing convicted criminals so they don't become repeat offenders, they make money by keeping those prisons as full as possible.

This lobby group is why Texas will be among the last states to decriminalize marijuana, let alone legalize it even for medicinal use. Marijuana convictions are big business in Texas, along with other misdemeanor level drug crimes because those fill these private prisons and fund a lot of law enforcement agencies in the state.

@benshawks08 that would make sense! There’s a lot of stuff out there about monitoring costs of these programs and how they’re basically wastes of money.

I’m not sure how common it is. I think the major disagreement is about the existence of a welfare state at all. I believe we need one. As great as charities are and have been they can’t plug all the leaks in society. So my argument is that a) a welfare state is necessary and b) the current one focuses way too much on in-kind benefits instead of just giving people cash.

I’m agnostic on who actually provides education and I’m definitely not informed enough to tell everyone what system is best. Some people really like their private, religious school. Some love their neighborhood public school. Great! Lets just make the government neutral on it and let people make these choices (within certain guardrails).

Texas Hawk 10 said:

@FarmerJayhawk Another example in Texas of holding minorities down and a contributing factor in the disparity of conviction rates and sentence lengths is the prison system. I can't speak on other states, but in Texas, most prisons are privately owned and operated. They are also among the richest and most powerful lobby groups in the state. They don't make money by rehabbing convicted criminals so they don't become repeat offenders, they make money by keeping those prisons as full as possible.

This lobby group is why Texas will be among the last states to decriminalize marijuana, let alone legalize it even for medicinal use. Marijuana convictions are big business in Texas, along with other misdemeanor level drug crimes because those fill these private prisons and fund a lot of law enforcement agencies in the state.

That makes sense. People making money from incarceration gives me the willies. The incentives are just bad. Have you read Frank Baumgartner’s book about the death penalty? Apparently Houston is the execution capital of the country and the ideal of equal justice under law is basically just a slogan. Also plugging it because he was kind enough to answer any and all questions from a lowly grad student a couple years ago.

Blaming school districts and cops. Perhaps it’s culture that doesn’t care about education or obeying the law? For every “crap” school I’ll show you plenty of kids who learn and move on. For every rich school I’ll show you kids who did nothing and are failures. It’s iq and culture in the home. Stop trying to put all of society into a monetary or racial algorithm. Society isn’t an equation to be solved.

@FarmerJayhawk @benshawks08
@wissox @Texas-Hawk-10

Nice discussion. One thing to add is the effect of zoning restrictions as an allegedly race-neutral tool that has been highly instrumental in perpetuating segregation and resulting educational quality differences.

Sidenote: A recent article somewhere discussed the correlation between gun control resistance and race. In the 60s through the early 90s, apparently the NRA and Republicans largely supported certain types of gun control. Those eras' highly visible "criminal elements" included the Black Panthers and inner city gangs committing drivebys with assault-style weapons (resulting in the ban that expired in 2004).

The article discussed how gun ownership among whites has exploded, and now the gun rights organizations think it is a divine right to get any gun they want. But they didn't think so when it was blacks who were the targeted owners.

I don't think it is necessarily a compelling argument, but it is food for thought.

Incidentally, the studies of racial bias based on names mentioned earlier include a number that show applicants with "white-sounding" names get approved at a substantially higher percentage with identical financials.

Savage Inequalities, a devastating look at how schools differ by zip code and The New Jim Crow, two excellent books on the subject.

Before we moved from Louisiana we lived in a nice suburb of Baton Rouge. Top schools in the state actually and the facilities were very nice. They just installed a video scoreboard that is the largest in the nation for High Schools. Down the road where I taught, in the same parish, our football team and the soccer team I coached had to use other teams fields because the lights caught fire. At a similar school I was at a game where one of the lights exploded, shrapnel narrowly missing a group of students in the stands. Savage Inequalities indeed.

Texas Hawk 10 said:

@FarmerJayhawk Another example in Texas of holding minorities down and a contributing factor in the disparity of conviction rates and sentence lengths is the prison system. I can't speak on other states, but in Texas, most prisons are privately owned and operated. They are also among the richest and most powerful lobby groups in the state. They don't make money by rehabbing convicted criminals so they don't become repeat offenders, they make money by keeping those prisons as full as possible.

This lobby group is why Texas will be among the last states to decriminalize marijuana, let alone legalize it even for medicinal use. Marijuana convictions are big business in Texas, along with other misdemeanor level drug crimes because those fill these private prisons and fund a lot of law enforcement agencies in the state.

The American prison system is slave labor. I would say it's broken, because in reality it is but for the purpose it is actually used for it's perfect...

@BShark It is interesting that most people have no idea that slavery is NOT absolutely illegal in the US. The 13th amendment prohibits slavery or involuntary servitude except as punishment upon conviction for a crime. The 8th amendment (cruel and unusual punishment) limits the treatment that can be meted out, but probably will continue to be broadly interpreted until it effectively negates the exception to the 13th.

Great discussion above.

@wissox In the district I work in, there's only 4 football stadiums total. None of the high schools have on campus stadiums for sub varsity teams. We have the main stadium where the varsity teams play. There's an auxiliary stadium and two stadiums on middle school campuses. That's 4 fields to play games on for 5 HS varsity teams, 15 sub varsity HS teams and up to 48 middle school teams (12 middle schools, 2 grade levels with 2 teams each). One of the middle school games each week is played at a local private school's field just to make the logistics work. It's been about 20 years since our district has had a team reach the semi finals of the state playoffs. The biggest reason is because of the lack of quality facilities in the district so kids that have real D1 talent are frequently recruited by local private schools or other school districts with better facilities.

...... Trouble brewing from the NCAA?

Texas Hawk 10 said:

@FarmerJayhawk Another example in Texas of holding minorities down and a contributing factor in the disparity of conviction rates and sentence lengths is the prison system. I can't speak on other states, but in Texas, most prisons are privately owned and operated. They are also among the richest and most powerful lobby groups in the state. They don't make money by rehabbing convicted criminals so they don't become repeat offenders, they make money by keeping those prisons as full as possible.

This lobby group is why Texas will be among the last states to decriminalize marijuana, let alone legalize it even for medicinal use. Marijuana convictions are big business in Texas, along with other misdemeanor level drug crimes because those fill these private prisons and fund a lot of law enforcement agencies in the state.

And local law enforcement has extreme privilege to confiscate property upon an arrest. Finally some of this has been called out by media, including national media because of specific local jurisdictions operating far beyond any good spirit of law enforcement and fairness.

Just the other day, my sister who works on a jobsite in Connecticut said they were doing some roadwork excavation, had the area blocked off with some big roadway cones and police officers helping direct traffic. At one point, a car did not obey the officer directing traffic, rolled slowly into the barricade, almost into the excavation where people were working. The officers approached the car and find the driver slumped over, starting to turn purple, bags of drugs in the passenger seat. The driver was overdosing. They gave him those meds that bring him back and basically save him. Driver says he is on his way to pick up his kid from school. Officers proceed to allow him to drive away. When the angry construction workers who almost got rolled up on ask the officers why they let him go with the drugs out everywhere they said that they are instructed to not arrest black people for drug offenses. If the person was white, he would have been arrested per the cop.

Just a note: My comment before the one on slavery had a final paragraph about unequal rates of approval but I didn't say for what!. This reference was about mortgage applications where the researchers sent identical financial statement and credit history information to lenders, with only the different names. Caucasian sounding names were approved for mortgages far more than black ones.

I have always wondered about the methodology of these studies because to accomplish truly identical applications with only different names you would have to falsify something in the application. And that is a federal offense! Maybe they get clearance to do a study from HUD or something.

Anyone remember the sting operation in Chicago where the US Attorney enlisted local attorneys to investigate the local Bar community and Cook County judges? These attorneys helped uncover a plethora of corrupt judges, clerks, prosecutors, and court officials.

In Chicago, the Machine always gets its revenge: The perps turned around and filed ethics complaints against the undercover lawyers who were the front men offering the bribes, alleging violations of the Code of Professional Responsibility's prohibition of dishonest conduct since they lied in pretending to be offering bribes.

Reminds me of my drug dealing clients in the Army who routinely would try to get the undercover cops to sign sworn statements that they were not cops.

Law was so much fun!

"... I may not be a smart man, but I know what love is, Jenny..."

I just read (in an actual paper printed on newsprint!) that the NCAA has ordered Mary Hardin-Baylor to vacate its 2016 Division III national football championship and 29 victories over the 2016-17 seasons because the football coach let a player use his car for more than 18 months.

Wow, they are REALLY trying to set some strong precedents here!

@mayjay

Tough Love. Guess Uber wasn't an option

@mayjay that's a lot of games in 2 years

@Crimsonorblue22 15-0 in '16, 14-1 in '17. They lost in the champ game in '17.

10-0 each season, then 5 rounds in their NCAA tourney.

@mayjay UMHB is a top D3 program so that's definitely a big blow for that program.

@Texas-Hawk-10 I read that it started as the "women's department" of Baylor.

Back when that was the only safe way for a woman to be associated with Baylor.

@mayjay It appears BU should have kept the separation. Wasn't it only two or three years ago there was a big scandal involving BU football players inappropriate treatment of BU co-eds?

BeddieKU23 said:

@mayjay

Tough Love. Guess Uber wasn't an option

LOL - - guess not

@mayjay Baylor was granted a charter before Texas statehood in 1845. The college itself was coed, but the classes were still segregated by gender. Eventually they split a few years later with the male university moving to Waco and merging with Waco University to become Baylor and a female university (Baylor Women's College) that eventually become known as Mary Hardin Baylor during the Great Depression.

I have quite a few friends that have gone to each school so I've heard about their histories several times before.

Cliff Clavin for the win!

HighEliteMajor said:

Cliff Clavin for the win!

Sometimes you want to go
Where everybody knows your name

And everyone likes seeing you walk in the door! Like all the KU bucketeers, for example.

With affection of course.