🏀 KuBuckets Archive

Silvio 12 games

Dave 2 games

Some purps got suspended too.

@BShark Well I got Mc Cormack right - -Nothing for Garrett ?

@jayballer73 Nothing for anyone else.

Love and Antonio Gordon are the suspended purps.

BShark said:

@jayballer73 Nothing for anyone else.

Love and Antonio Gordon are the suspended purps.

ya I saw love got EIGHT GAMES. - -but hell he doesn't play anyway, always talking about him being hurt or just not good enough to play

Too steep for Silvio. Rest seems fair.

Seems about right to me. I didn't really see anything from Garrett. People claiming anyone who left the bench should be suspended aren't going to be happy, but the coaches were about to shake hands when the thing erupted. Everyone thought the game was over.

@FarmerJayhawk Pretty sure that puts his suspension one game past the @KSU game

DanR said:

@FarmerJayhawk Pretty sure that puts his suspension one game past the @KSU game

Yup. Tinfoil hat time

That is EXACTLY why. He honestly shouldn't even make the trip to hump town.

FarmerJayhawk said:

Too steep for Silvio. Rest seems fair.

No this is about right

DanR said:

@FarmerJayhawk Pretty sure that puts his suspension one game past the @KSU game

He will be eligible for the last Conference game , return the following game AFTER - - K-Sate

Guess we will find out if we are even MORE efficient with 5 guards than we are with 4!

Also, proponents of upping the tempo will not be happy about the pace of these next two games.

I will say one positive about Silvio... wish he had shown that hustle on the block the rest of his PT!

Maybe this wakes him up. He's been asleep for a couple of years.

@BShark Sloan got nothing?

@Hawk8086 Correct. Neither did Garrett or Ochai. Seemed they were fairly lenient about this.

Just heard that Love's suspension will not start until he is medically cleared to play.

sports host saying he will be serving that suspension while he plays for Chicago State next year lmao

Hell yeah 🐦 View Tweet?s=21

Doesn't sound like DOK will get much rest over the next two games. Best hope the drives and 3's are working....

My god, the Star's editorials are not as well written as the ones I used to read in the UDK!

@jayballer73 that pretty funny to me, hurt and can’t play but can start a fight 🤣 can you say clown??

I guess Silvio's is about right. I am surprised Dave did not get more.

Anybody see long in the fray?

Man silvio's sincere statement reminds of all he has been through here. Hopefully he can put this behind him.

FarmerJayhawk said:

Hell yeah 🐦 View Tweet?s=21

Sam is awesome. A quality twitter follow in case anyone here isn't already...

🐦 View Tweet?s=09

Tristan gonna be getting minutes at the 5 now.

Self will have to plan resting Doke around TV timeouts. He already is playing over 30 minutes a game (6 of last 8).

Tristan makes sense defensively with his length but it will be interesting to see if he can operate the offense at that position. At least Self has 4 days to figure that out.

Moss starts, 4 guards. Just Braun & Enaruna off the bench. Going to be an interesting game

!48A326DA-7714-4249-9628-3C53164AF51B.jpeg ↗

BeddieKU23 said:

Man silvio's sincere statement reminds of all he has been through here. Hopefully he can put this behind him.

Not being too cynical, but as @approxinfinity pointed out, that statement was surely crafted for him. That's ok. I understand why.

I'm sure he's sorry. That's a given for me. I'm sure everyone's sorry when they do stupid things. But he has completely embarrassed KU basketball at a really bad time for more embarrassment, much of which centers on his dealings with KU (via his guardian).

I just don't want to see him play here again. My opinion. I know that most probably disagree. This isn't a felony, or a crime against humanity, he didn't hurt anyone -- I get that. He stood over a guy, then got caught up in the melee I which he was an active participant (I'm always good with someone defending themselves; he was more active than that. He pursued too), then inexplicably picked up a chair over his head as if he was going to use it. That's what this was. The worst part is the reflection on our program.

This was too much for me, coupled with what his recruitment has brought to us. I'd like to see him play elsewhere next season and transfer. A fresh start for him, too. Hopefully, as with many folks that make mistakes, they learn and are better for it. I bet that's the case here.

I will say, though, that Bill Self is to blame here in large part. The act of standing over the opposing player was the act that got this going. It was the first negative thing DeSousa did. Those acts in the past have never been objectively punished by Self. I've never seen him get really angry with a player that has done that before. That's a big consideration for me.

If Self banned that conduct, made it completely unacceptable. A player will get an internal suspension for it, it wouldn't happen. Self has never made any statement about that being a prohibited conduct.

@HighEliteMajor I tend to agree with you on the standing over a player...and what has Self done to discourage that. We don't really know. I disagree with wishing Silvio would go elsewhere, but I understand your logic. With all of that has gone on, he may do that on his own. This suspension goes a long ways in ending his season. It's hard to see how he improves without getting in some games and gaining some confidence and earning some with Self. Unless there is an injury, he will most likely just be an emergency 5 in the Dance.
I still hold out hope that he can be an important player for us next year.

Doke did it once, once! Now,😇 think self had something to do w/that! Jeez! These kids have been great. Anybody listen to hawk talk? Some of you try to find fault.

@HighEliteMajor

At least there was a Statement. Haven't seen a peep from the Kansas St coaches or players. Where's their accountability?

This is definitely Strike #2 since he's been here. Strike 1 you can debate how much is his fault, Strike 2 you can't.

The chair photo will always be there. Definitely a black eye to the program.

Where was the accountability from K-St's assistants to stop the players on the bench from engaging Silvio? Silvio made a bad choice (standing over, taunting) and followed it with more bad choices. Hard to pin that on Self but I suppose you can if you want. Self did get in the melee and try and stop him. He wasn't absent once it got out of hand.

A 12 game suspension should be sufficient deterrent to this kind of acts. We have no idea what he's said to the guys behind closed doors regarding taunting, etc.

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/28544893/how-college-basketball-moves-kansas-kansas-state-brawl ↗

When you want an opinion or judgment that is absolutely meaningless, consider our opinions on an official's call in a basketball game. We can moan and complain all we want, and we can use video replay to make our case that an official's call was correct or incorrect. Yet it doesn't matter. The official's call always stands and cannot be changed, no matter how right and righteous we outsiders believe we are.

What matters in an official's call are two things: the rule as written and the official's interpretation and enforcement of the rule. Right or wrong, the official's call is the law of the court and cannot be changed or challenged. The rule governs, and the official enforces the rule. It can only be opined upon, criticized or agreed with by outsiders.

The same is true with regard to a fight in a basketball game. A fight might offend our sensibilities and draw our ire, but the ultimate decisions regarding the actions of those involved in a fight rest with the on-court rules, the officials on the floor, the conference and the schools. The rest of us can have our opinions, but our opinions don't matter.

Fights are governed by Rule 10 of the NCAA's basketball rules of play. If a player is deemed to have participated in a fight, he is ejected from that game and suspended for the next game. Essentially, that is a one-game penalty. The rules actually contemplate a player being involved in more than one fight during a season. Rule 10 states that a player will be suspended for the season if he is deemed to have participated in a second fight in the same season. That is instructive.

Monmouth's George Papas and college basketball's most infamous dunk
The rules also cover leaving the bench during a fight. The only person who is allowed to leave the bench during a fight is the head coach. Any player or assistant coach who leaves the bench during a fight is subject to ejection. The rules do not mandate a suspension for leaving the bench.

Those rules were on display Tuesday night during an ugly brawl in the Kansas State-Kansas game at Allen Fieldhouse. The game was over, with Kansas leading by over 20 points and only deep bench players and walk-ons on the floor. It was "garbage time." As Silvio De Sousa crossed half court with the ball, Kansas was set to run the clock out. Instead of simply allowing Kansas to run the clock out and end the game, DaJuan Gordon stole the ball from De Sousa and sprinted with the ball to the other end to score. That was unnecessary.

De Sousa, who lost the ball to Gordon, sprinted down the floor and blocked Gordon's shot. That was unnecessary.

After the blocked shot, with the clock at 0:00 and the game literally over, De Sousa stood over Gordon, who had fallen to the floor, and taunted him. That was wholly unnecessary.

But none of that unnecessary stuff was a fight. It contributed to an atmosphere where a fight might break out, but none of it was a fight.

The fight started when Kansas State players, led by Antonio Gordon and James Love III, left the Kansas State bench and physically went after De Sousa on the baseline. De Sousa was knocked down, and the fight began. Kansas players entered the fray, at least one, David McCormack, to participate in the fight, others to break it up. Both head coaches and assistants were trying to break up the fight. The officials put themselves in harm's way to break up the fight. Punches were thrown. De Sousa picked up a stool and held it over his head before dropping it behind him. It was an ugly mess, and it was totally unacceptable.

The officials went to the monitor to determine which players participated in the fight and who had left the bench. De Sousa, McCormack, Antonio Gordon and Love were all deemed to have participated in the fight, and everyone else was deemed to have left the bench. The officials then put time back on the clock, brought the head coaches and players on the floor at the end of the game (minus those who had been ejected) and had those players inbound the ball and finish the game. While the rules might call for that or allow it, it was a ridiculous sight after such an ugly, disgusting brawl. It was unnecessary.

After the game, we were all breathless and emotional in responding to the ugliness of the fight.

You heard it all: It is unacceptable. There is no place for such behavior in college basketball. This will not be tolerated. De Sousa should never wear a uniform in college again. Punishments should be swift and severe. Yet another embarrassment for Kansas after the NCAA notice of allegations, Snoop Dogg and now this. Kansas fought for De Sousa's eligibility after the FBI investigation, then he does this. Every issue was collated with this fight and rolled into one. It was First Take on steroids, and very little of it centered on the rules and precedent.

The rules make it clear. De Sousa, McCormack, Antonio Gordon and Love were participants in the fight and are suspended for their team's next game. Those who left the bench but were not ruled to have participated in the fight are not subject to suspension under the rules. That is the minimum sanction. The only ones with authority to add to those sanctions are the conference (the Big 12) and the two schools involved. This isn't about perception, the NCAA notice of allegations, Snoop Dogg or anything else. It is solely about participation in the fight. Anything more is inappropriate and wrong.

Working together, the Big 12 office, Kansas and Kansas State agreed upon suspensions for the players involved in the fight. De Sousa was suspended for 12 games, Love for eight games, Antonio Gordon for three games and McCormack for two games. Those who left the bench were reprimanded.

Some thought the suspensions were too light. Others thought the suspensions were reasonable. But, a day later, the tone of the discussion seemed far more tempered.

My opinion? There was plenty of blame to go around, and several contributing factors to the fight, but no excuses. Those who participated in the fight were wrong, period. Yet, as all reasonable people can agree, once we establish that the fight was wrong and those involved should be sanctioned, it is also useful to examine the factors that led to the fight and how such a fight can be avoided in the future.

First, when the clock is running out in a blowout, let the clock run out. Don't try for a steal. It is unnecessary. And, while the officials did a great job overall in dealing with the fight and did not make a mistake in this, I would consider calling a foul on the defender going for the steal. The offensive team was clearly trying to run out the clock. If you call the foul, you avoid a potential bad situation and discourage the same thing in the future. Reasonable minds can differ on this thought, but I think it would be a good way for an official to handle a situation. Remember, we saw the same thing in the Kansas-Monmouth game earlier this season.

Second, don't try to defend your basket after the steal when you were running out the clock. It is unnecessary. Did it lead to the fight? No, but if you let it go, there is no fight.

Third, stop the taunting. When you dunk on someone or block a shot, that's great. Celebrate it with your teammates. Just leave your opponent out of it. Taunting an opponent doesn't make the dunk or block more impressive. One thing you can guarantee, we will see taunting technical fouls more often going forward, and perhaps we should.

Fourth, let's stop calling the players "kids." They are not kids, they are adults. They are men. Calling them "kids" infantilizes them. After all, the NCAA calls this Men's Basketball and not Boys' Basketball or Kids' Basketball. These are young men.

Lastly, the suspensions were within reason. Would I have argued if they were a bit longer or shorter? No. I was unmoved and unpersuaded by calls to suspend De Sousa for the season or talk that he should never wear a college uniform again. Could the result of the fight have been worse and people, including spectators, injured? Yes, that could have happened. But it didn't happen. The Big 12 had to sanction what happened, not what could have happened.

We have condemned the action, and those involved have been sanctioned. For Kansas and Kansas State, the next step is to make sure the punished players are taken care of and get the help and support they need. De Sousa has been pilloried and will be followed by the menacing photos of him with the stool forever. That will not be easy to deal with. These are young men who made errors in judgment in a heated situation. They were wrong. But they should not be thrown out with yesterday's trash. De Sousa is a young man who made a mistake, not a punching bag for those upset with Kansas or the NCAA. He needs proper support, as do McCormack, Antonio Gordon and Love.

It was ugly and unacceptable, but it is over. Fortunately, nobody got hurt. We should all move on having learned from it and being better for it.

-Jay Bilas

@dylans Oh great, I agree with Bilas again. Thanks for posting that though!

@DanR crazy that a Dukie has the most level headed take. Of course not all of them did, but Bilas isn’t too terrible. 😆 I like him most nights; can’t stand him other nights. 🤷‍♂️

I’ve been looking this morning for some form of apology from James Love III of K-State. I would think that would be appropriate. Is there one out there?

Excellent article by Bilas!

Three, two, one...waiting for a particular head to explode....

Crimsonorblue22 said:

Doke did it once, once! Now,😇 think self had something to do w/that! Jeez! These kids have been great. Anybody listen to hawk talk? Some of you try to find fault.

Well, and some discount the power and influence of a coach. Some try not to find the "why". Some seek to simply and think that negative stuff happens in a vacuum. When conduct is prohibited and there are real penalties -- when a coach understands where stuff like that can lead -- it can have a great impact on whether the conduct occurs. Poor sportsmanship and conduct have been tolerated in my view. Others may disagree.

This is one of those, "See what can happen when you don't have strict rules" situations.

Bilas is really a voice of reason on this and it's well thought out. Perhaps the best statement I've seen anywhere on this entire deal. Vitale calling it "criminal" was laughable.

@HighEliteMajor I agree that this is good from Bilas. The only argument I'd really have with it is that the K-State kid who initiated the actual fight portion of the incident should have 12 games as well but since it's starting after he is medically cleared to play maybe it will be close to that.

I've also definitely been guilty of the "kids" stuff. I tend to do that because of the research that's come out around the brain and particularly the development of the pre-frontal cortex (long term thinking/decision making center) in boys/men. You've called me out on this before and the more I think about it the more I think you (and Bilas) are right on this. Accountability is good and calling players kids can work to excuse their actions and ultimately remove their overall agency in the system.

BeddieKU23 said:

@HighEliteMajor

At least there was a Statement. Haven't seen a peep from the Kansas St coaches or players. Where's their accountability?

This is definitely Strike #2 since he's been here. Strike 1 you can debate how much is his fault, Strike 2 you can't.

The chair photo will always be there. Definitely a black eye to the program.

Where was the accountability from K-St's assistants to stop the players on the bench from engaging Silvio? Silvio made a bad choice (standing over, taunting) and followed it with more bad choices. Hard to pin that on Self but I suppose you can if you want. Self did get in the melee and try and stop him. He wasn't absent once it got out of hand.

A 12 game suspension should be sufficient deterrent to this kind of acts. We have no idea what he's said to the guys behind closed doors regarding taunting, etc.

This is why I'm still worried about the game @ Kstate. Their players, coaches and fans are seeing that outside of 2 players there are no consequences for an entire team attacking a player for taunting. There doesn't appear to be any remorse or reflection from that program into their part in the craziness.

If there's a similar incident in Manhattan, this will be the last basketball game I watch. If I want to watch boxing or MMA, I'll watch boxing or MMA.

Well , I know already that this is more likely then not , not the best way to be taking these suspensions I get that , so no need for anyone to find the time to tell me. I realize shouldn't look at them like this BUT:

Seeing as how these suspensions have become a reality , and there is nothing that can be done about them , then might as well stand back and reflect how this will effect the team. How will we approach./ attack

So if you stand back and look at things with Silvio , you have to look in reality his suspension really shouldn't effect us that much because his playing time was almost non factor anyways, really not much production at this time anyways on either end. What was his minutes around 5 ? - -So not having him really is not a change from where we were at before the Suspension. - As Far as Dave , most on here has made it clear that you think we are better with the 4-1 anyways right ? - I agree just more fluid, yet Coach was still STARTING him but how long has he been in after the start ? - Coach usually pulls him by the 1`st TV timeout and were running with the 4-1 right ? - - So with him being suspended for 2 games just means we start the game running with 4-1 really not much of a change there then anyways. - The only thing is , we won't have him to break Doke and gonna be a Challenge for those 2 games if Doke gets in foul trouble Gonna miss some rebounding for those 2 games. - -Considering who we play for these 2 games Dave is out I think we can survive. Tennessee & Okie State right ?

All I'm saying is and not trying to make light of a bad situation/suspensions is that in the overall grand scheme of things that actually it really shouldn't effect us with the outcome of these games anyways all thing considered. Now would of been a much different story I think if Garrett would of been suspended because he plays a much bigger part in every phase of play it could of had some effect - - just my thoughts. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@nuleafjhawk I don't think there will be a similar incident but I do worry that fans will take things too far. I would not attend that game as a Kansas fan. I'm biased because I view their fans as borderline inappropriate just about every time we play there and this is just going to add fuel to that fire. Add to that the school/program/coaches doing nothing to dampen that fire and I just get a bad feeling.

The most likely outcome is a normal game with some inappropriate fan comments/chants and signs and nothing more.

benshawks08 said:

@nuleafjhawk I don't think there will be a similar incident but I do worry that fans will take things too far. I would not attend that game as a Kansas fan. I'm biased because I view their fans as borderline inappropriate just about every time we play there and this is just going to add fuel to that fire. Add to that the school/program/coaches doing nothing to dampen that fire and I just get a bad feeling.

The most likely outcome is a normal game with some inappropriate fan comments/chants and signs and nothing more.

YA I wouldn't be going. I am sure there is gonna be some things that are going to make things very tense.

I would be willing to bet there will be extra Security , I got a feeling this will be a real foul fest even if it is warranted or not. - The officials are gonna call this game so tight as to not let things get out offhand. Cause I could just see the 1st HARD foul intentional or not things could very easily get out of hands. - - ROCK CHALK ALLDAY LONG BABY

@benshawks08 The KSU fans are without question over the line, chanting F bombs on national TV so I have to mute it. The group that dressed up as monkeys and threw bananas at the court when we first started playing African Americans. When I was in highschool they got in trouble for hang chickens from the rafters by their neck and sacrificing chickens in the parking lot pregame. Not to mention spitting and throwing stuff at our players, assaulting a player after the game. What else can they do besides bring in a gun??

@HighEliteMajor Its really not surprising they haven’t released anything. Same administration and fan base that doesn’t take ownership of any loss, it’s always someone cheated or the refs. I’d be shocked if in their eyes they believe they did any wrong. I’ve been involved with basketball for over 25 years as I’ve never seen a team call off the dogs with two minutes to go, put in multiple walk ons and get the hell fouled outta them, full court pressed with starters still in.

@jayballer73 You seem to frequent other teams fan sites. I'm curious if you have explored what the KSU fans are saying about this.

kjayhawks said:

@benshawks08 The KSU fans are without question over the line, chanting F bombs on national TV so I have to mute it. The group that dressed up as monkeys and threw bananas at the court when we first started playing African Americans. When I was in highschool they got in trouble for hang chickens from the rafters by their neck and sacrificing chickens in the parking lot pregame. Not to mention spitting and throwing stuff at our players, assaulting a player after the game. What else can they do besides bring in a gun??

One of my high school buddies, now just Facebook friends, said after the fight, via Facebook, “Oh baby I want to fight a KU fan now!” There’s a trashy culture problem in that town

@rockchalkwyo I have a friend that was jumped at a game in Methattan. It was about 15 years ago when they were still really bad. Place was 3/4s empty after a convincing KU win and my buddy was attacked in the bathroom. He’s a very quiet and I’ve never seen him get too fired up at anything including a KU game. So it ls hard for me to believe it was anything but random meth heads.

@kjayhawks that’s so sad. I was jumped also in Manhattan. I lived there from 2008-2011. I was 21 leaving aggieville and walking home. A brand new black Escalade pulled up and out came 5 huge ass men. They messed my friend up pretty bad and broke open my head. Luckily a cop pulled up and separated it. I was drunk so I didn’t know the correct protocol on how to handle it. Once we got home, a quick 10 minutes later, we called the cops. The cops came over and said that WE are the lucky ones for not being charged and there’s nothing that they can do.

The next day when I had my head on straight I knew something was messed up. So I looked up pictures of the KSU basketball team and guess what. It was them!!! God damn I hate them. They are trash at the highest purity.

Hawk8086 said:

@jayballer73 You seem to frequent other teams fan sites. I'm curious if you have explored what the KSU fans are saying about this.

really not much other then what you would think they would be saying. such as " KU has so many trashy players , no wonder that school is looked at the way it does " - -OR " Wonder if Self pays DeSousa or not Pay DeSousa while on his suspension " - - " KU is just THUG U " - and ya da - - ya da - -ya da pretty typical. Talking about how if it would of been them they would of done the exact same thing stealing the ball typical BS

Got a beer bottle thrown at me in Aggieville once just for wearing a blue (not even KU!) shirt. Good times all around.

I have heard a lot of opinions about the incident. Here is mine. There are no fights, no suspensions, or even any hard feelings, if a punk named Gordon does not pull a bush league play while Silvio is running out the clock. I am sure Self has drilled it into the Jayhawk players to never run up the score or needlessly embarrass the opposing team. Remember the BGreene dunk? Squeaky said he told his players to stand down in the last few seconds. He is either a liar or his players pay no attention to him. Remember the Monmouth game earlier this season when another punk pulled a bush league play against Tristan dribbling out the last few seconds of a 110-55 blow out? I believe just maybe the Jayhawks are real tired of bush league punks coming into Allen Fieldhouse and after getting their asses kicked all over the floor for 40 minutes, they think they are getting the last laugh by being a punk. Bottom line is this: the punk Gordon is the one and only culprit in this melee.

@rockchalkwyo @FarmerJayhawk Aggieville is trash if you ask me, too many idiots especially if anything is going on out at fort Riley. Hundreds of army dudes that want to get hammered and start fights. I’m lucky I’m just big enough at 6’2 230 (I’m getting fat lol) not a ton people looking for trouble come my way.

I’d bet large sums of money if by chance they beat us in that shit hole there is a fight between their fans and our players.

Right all the army guys want to do is get drunk and start fights. Sure. Great info.

HighEliteMajor said:

I just don't want to see him play here again. My opinion. I know that most probably disagree. This isn't a felony, or a crime against humanity, he didn't hurt anyone -- I get that. He stood over a guy, then got caught up in the melee I which he was an active participant (I'm always good with someone defending themselves; he was more active than that. He pursued too), then inexplicably picked up a chair over his head as if he was going to use it. That's what this was. The worst part is the reflection on our program.

This was too much for me, coupled with what his recruitment has brought to us. I'd like to see him play elsewhere next season and transfer. A fresh start for him, too. Hopefully, as with many folks that make mistakes, they learn and are better for it. I bet that's the case here.

Is he going to graduate this year where he could transfer out and play elsewhere immediately? I just can't see him sitting out another year for any reason. I feel its grad transfer, play for KU, or go pro.

@HighEliteMajor not all but most, especially the pissed off 18 year olds just outta basic. I have a friend that’s a county sheriffs deputy up there and he says the crime over doubles when that place is full.

@Hawk8086 I read some stuff on Bring on the Cats and got some laughs. Apparently because Weber told them to back off in the final seconds, according to Bruce himself. They get a pass for pressing and fouling hard the last TWO MINUTES, NOT SECONDS. Also apparently Silivio threw the chair at a KSU player according to them and for some reason no one mentioned Love actually starting the physical fight. Also Bruce wasn’t at mid court like he claimed apparently he was in the middle pulling guys out like Self and Co, their are just very sneaky lol.

TMCats is over there talking trash, too.

kjayhawks said:

@Hawk8086 I read some stuff on Bring on the Cats and got some laughs. Apparently because Weber told them to back off in the final seconds, according to Bruce himself. They get a pass for pressing and fouling hard the last TWO MINUTES, NOT SECONDS. Also apparently Silivio threw the chair at a KSU player according to them and for some reason no one mentioned Love actually starting the physical fight. Also Bruce wasn’t at mid court like he claimed apparently he was in the middle pulling guys out like Self and Co, their are just very sneaky lol.

Ya I heard the Weber weekly talk, he said he didn't see anything , and didn't even know what was going on - - he was on his way to shake Bill's hand and then seen Bill and our Assistants running the other way. He said then He , ( Weber went and tackled Gordan ( Hell Weber couldn't tackle a limp noodle ).

Then he say Gordan didn't do anything wrong , talking about Gordon stealing the ball. He talked about how Gordon was taking things really hard , saying he was getting all this hate mail - - I'm sure. -- ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

kjayhawks said:

Also Bruce wasn’t at mid court like he claimed apparently he was in the middle pulling guys out like Self and Co, their are just very sneaky lol.

More on the peripheral

!8465E4E6-36D4-4A4A-B352-87B9C592E44D.jpeg ↗

Squeaky makes it a step further in. (Still rotating pictures and I can’t figure out how to straighten it)

I have no issue with Weber's role in the brawl. That picture shows him straining hard trying to hold that hidden guy back. As I described before, he ushered that guy and Love out that exit immediately after Love ducked away from the fight. By doing that quickly, Weber might have actually helped prevent fans from trying to retaliate or provoke Love if they saw him leaving.

Now, everyone knows I cannot abide Squeaky, but I can't fault him for not diving deeply into the scrum--enough people were doing that.

The tall guy in the black suit did what Weber should've been doing! Imo

I would say that we got very lucky. Who knows, this team might now be on a mission - D-ing up, boxing out, rebounding, hitting wide open threes and the like. This could be a galvanizing thing for the team.

@jayballer73 @kjayhawks That figures. One -sided and ignoring their part in the whole thing.

@mayjay Very true what he did wasn’t bad. He grabbed Gordon on the peripheral of the fight and held him back. However, Bill from the other side of the court had run into the middle of the scrum and had both Silvio and McCormack by the jersey effectively ending the fight.

What no one sees in this is in the pre-game warmups the entire KU team is on the KSU side - some sit on the bench most are shooting; the entire KSU team is on the KU side doing the same except one player. Love was on the side the KU players were on, talking crap the whole time. Ironically next to a gal in an #unhandme shirt.

@dylans Imagine that, lol

I totally forgot Saturday is College Gameday in Lawrence...

The timing of this fight couldn't have been worse lol. It's going to be all they talk about in the lead up to our game.

Kcmatt7 said:

I totally forgot Saturday is College Gameday in Lawrence...

The timing of this fight couldn't have been worse lol. It's going to be all they talk about in the lead up to our game.

Who wants to bet they show the still of Silvio holding the chair that he never ends up swinging?

Dick Vitale has doubled down on his position that Silvio should be banned for the season. Hopefully that means he is so disappointed/disgusted in KU he never announces another one of our games!!!

I guess fran said he thinks Self leaves for nba.

I pretty much agree with the Jay Bilas response. My exception is that the refs should step in and stop a last second steal. Yes, that would have stopped this event but it is an overreach for several reasons. First... it is a slippery slope and before you know it, refs may be getting involved in outcomes that are still marginally known outcomes. Second... we have the gambling lines and I know gamblers don't want refs to be anywhere involved in what the final score will be.

Thinking back to the brawl... there was no bad blood all through the game. Nothing. You couldn't even tell this was a rival game. So it is clear that the players weren't really holding much hatred/anger inside before the event took place. Knowing that... the brawl was really a "perfect storm" in how it escalated to such a crazy level so quickly. The steal was the first taunt. The Silvio stand over was the second taunt. And then it went straight downhill. I'm thinking the real gas on this fire came from players on both sides who were holding built up anxiety completely unrelated to players on the other team. With Silvio, it is clear he hasn't had the year anyone expected, including him, and he has received plenty of criticism based on crushed expectations. Love seems to have frustration about his situation and injury. Gordon... ? And Big Mac might have some frustration, too. He must feel like he has added pressure to his game or he will get pulled for a 4-guard lineup.

All these factors seemed to fuel the "perfect storm."

@drgnslayr big Dave standing up for his brother. Same for Marcus.

@drgnslayr Add in the facts that it happened with the clock seeming to expire and on KSU's end of the court. Pretty sure Silvio would have still blocked it (and taunted) if it happened with 20 seconds left, but there's no way the KSU bench players run out there with time still on the clock or if it had happened all the way on the other end of the floor. Who knows for sure.

It also didn't really help that Fran acted like he was calling the Hindenburg disaster while it was going on. Oh, the humanity.

With the chair as the lasting image from this event it may not be up to Self whether Silvio is on the roster after this season.

Lost in the Sauce:

Illinois Alan Griffin gets suspended two games for stepping on the chest of a Purdue player during their game Tuesday.

Something was in the water on Tuesday.

Kcmatt7 said:

I totally forgot Saturday is College Gameday in Lawrence...

The timing of this fight couldn't have been worse lol. It's going to be all they talk about in the lead up to our game.

I'll bet that the next KU/K-State game won't be shown on ESPN+... Ka-Ching! "Hey, do you want to air a commercial during the next KU/K-State game? Remember, they had that big fight last time. Everybody will be watching!"

Kcmatt7 said:

I totally forgot Saturday is College Gameday in Lawrence...

The timing of this fight couldn't have been worse lol. It's going to be all they talk about in the lead up to our game.

Oh you know I would almost bet that will be their opening commentary and w will have to go all through the whole dam scenario all over again. Then they will talk about how KU has been Centerstage with not such good thing as of late - - per the NCAA Scandal among other things you can take it to the bank -- I mean it's ESPN - - THEY SUCK oh hell I've already said that lol.

dylans said:

Dick Vitale has doubled down on his position that Silvio should be banned for the season. Hopefully that means he is so disappointed/disgusted in KU he never announces another one of our games!!!

lol , hell there is a better chance of me becoming the Pope tomorrow then Dicky not broadcasting another KU game lol. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@BeddieKU23

Self is already hearing a loud message from the student body and administration: CLEAN UP BASKETBALL!

But I will hand it to Self and he has always been a players' coach and he will stand up for Silvio if he believes Silvio will reform. JMO

@Crimsonorblue22

And then there is Big Dave.

I feel like his saving grace was the lack of video footage on his feet during the fight. It sure looked like he may have got in some kicks, though it is also possible he was shuffling because there was a Wildcat at his feet. Who knows...

I do know that if a camera was down low and showed Big Dave kicking, his suspension would have been much higher, as well it should.

Sorry, but I have to love this statement from him on Silvio he said :
I can be mad at him ( Silvio ) or say things to him in a private setting that the media won't be privy to , BUT if my Son or Daughter made a bad emotional decision in the heat of the moment - -I don't stop loving them. He's ours and I'm proud that he is.

Well Said coach. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@dylans

I probably shouldn't have... but I chuckled on your image. It might as well be us exploiting the use of the chair though I know we will be seeing it all over Kittyland when we face them in Manhattan.

I've already heard some things about that....

Fans have been planning how to show the chair and they can't bring in chairs. So they want to do big posters of chairs. From what I gather, KSU administration isn't too hip on any additional buildup of the brawl so they will ban free speech involving chairs for the game.

Anyone else have inside info from Kittyland?

We can all wear casts

@Crimsonorblue22 that will imply that we lost the fight and are broken. We are anything but.

@drgnslayr Don't get me wrong - I HATE the incident that happened Tuesday. In fact, I saw the first few seconds (to process what was going on) and then I turned the channel.

But Kansas being told to CLEAN UP BASKETBALL !! ?? I don't think there's anything to clean up. It's not like we're a prison league team that brawls with everybody we play and spits on their cheerleaders. It was an isolated incident that really should have been between one KU player and one KSU player and it got out of hand.

I don't think we need to clean up basketball. Just inform these young men that if they want to brawl, they'll pay the price.

Just my opinion.

@drgnslayr

I'm sure Self will stand by his players. However the AD, Board of Regents etc probably dont feel as much of a commitment when the product (KU) has yet again been run through the media mill. It doesnt look good.

@jayballer73 Hard to dislike a coach who thinks and talks like this. Dude always says the right thing even if he may sometimes say too much.

What I'm hearing from the student body after hearing about Case, is f u KSU!

dylans said:

First, when the clock is running out in a blowout, let the clock run out. Don't try for a steal. It is unnecessary. And, while the officials did a great job overall in dealing with the fight and did not make a mistake in this, I would consider calling a foul on the defender going for the steal. The offensive team was clearly trying to run out the clock. If you call the foul, you avoid a potential bad situation and discourage the same thing in the future.

This should be a point of emphasis for officials going forward.

@bskeet Don’t think we should change the rules for the last few seconds of games only in blowouts. What qualifies as a blow out? How many seconds can a team “dribble out the clock”? If we change the end of games we need to go to the Elam ending. Completely takes stuff like this off the table. Every possession matters until the game is over. Every game has a game winning shot. Fouling to stop the clock becomes useless.

@benshawks08 To be clear, it is not a rule change. A point of emphasis is an effort to enforce an existing rule to encourage behavior changes in the game.

(They've done this for flops, moving screens, etc. in the past)

I think it would be wise for the officials to watch closely. On replay, it's not clear that the steal was clean.

@bskeet If your saying call the game the same from start to finish I agree on that. But I don’t think blowouts and dribbling out the clock should have anything special or different from regular play. But I’m honestly not that upset about the steal or the block. Clock is running, game on. Does it make the KState player look foolish, sure but that’s for him to deal with.

Decent coaches don’t let their players do it. Same as band directors etc!

Self nailed it today.

@BShark that's my coach!😎❤️💙

BShark said:

Self nailed it today.

Yes he did

Where's Weber? I get that KU is a national brand and actually has to address issues, but K-State is acting just like what they are--a cling-on, always just hanging around in KU's shadow. Man up, Weber. Your players got suspensions.

@DanR man? Up lol How 'bout Coach up and get off the dang court! Guarantee our safety at your place! Maybe we should run up the score just to be safe.

You all know me.... and some of you know where I'm going now...

What will this do for our chip? Is it back?

drgnslayr said:

You all know me.... and some of you know where I'm going now...

What will this do for our chip? Is it back?

What kind of a chip ? lol - - - - a Doritto Chip a Nacho chip ? - - A potato Chip ? - -A Poker Chip ? lol - - -just playing trying to have some light hearted fun buddy no harm meant , I know what you mean.

@jayballer73

Haha.... sometimes I wonder!

drgnslayr said:

@jayballer73

Haha.... sometimes I wonder!

lol - - -me too

benshawks08 said:

@bskeet If your saying call the game the same from start to finish I agree on that. But I don’t think blowouts and dribbling out the clock should have anything special or different from regular play. But I’m honestly not that upset about the steal or the block. Clock is running, game on. Does it make the KState player look foolish, sure but that’s for him to deal with.

I totally agree about the steal and the block and the impact on the KState player.

Regarding officiating, the reality is that the game is not called the same from start to finish, so I'm not actually saying that.

It is already standard practice to have so called "points of emphasis'. Likewise, it is standard practice to vary how strictly to enforce the rules throughout the game.

For instance, if there is an event where officials think things are getting chippy.. they will tend to be less tolerant and call 'touch' fouls to maintain control of the game. Other times, the rules are less strictly enforced and they 'let them play'. (some say the officials 'swallow their whistle')

It would be consistent with current practices if NCAA officiating crews formally institute the practice of strictly enforcing any contact on steals -- specifically at the end of blowouts.

I disagree about the block. If it had ended there, without the subsequent taunt, that would have been poetic. Block the shot and walk away. Sends the right message:

"Don't be unsportsmanlike, young man. You can't handle it."

@tundrahok I think you are saying the block was fair game, which is what @benshawks08 and I are also saying.

The block was a basketball play and, given the steal, completely legit.

The taunt was not a basketball play and was not ok. If only he had blocked it and walked away.

Block the shot, help the guy up, and pat him on the shoulder and say good try little fella and wander off smiling. Done properly it''s as effective as standing over a guy with none of the downside.

Lil fella!🤣 so great that we are grown up and wise now.

@bskeet I meant I disagree with Bilas. He said the block was unnecessary. I thought it was awesome. At least, if had ended there.

Crimsonorblue22 said:

Lil fella!🤣 so great that we are grown up and wise now.

It's hard to refrain from a dig on a guard challenging a 6'10" guy.

I mean, it's kind of classic: the guard can steal the ball, but can't get the shot off over the big man, so it's a stalemate.

@Kubie Exactly.

tundrahok said:

@bskeet I meant I disagree with Bilas. He said it was unnecessary. I thought it was awesome. At least, if had ended there.

Oh! I had not heard Bilas say that. I thought in his column earlier in the week, he was not critical of the block..

Anyway, I will give him credit for being very level-headed, thoughtful and balanced on this topic. But I will agree with you that the block itself was not the problem. I might even go so far as to say it was appropriate given the steal.

Anyone criticizing the block should remember this simple equation: No steal = No block.

It can be BOTH unnecessary AND legitimate. Think for a moment what would have happened if Silvio's aim on the block had been off by 6 inches and he totally creamed the guy trying to shoot, or if he had fallen and gotten injured. How many of us would say that result would have been worth the risk?

Legitimate because he accomplished it without injury to either player. I called my wife in to watch it on replay--we were laughing!--but then on the 2nd playing the aftermath became apparent.

Unnecessary because letting it go would have had no effect.

I've watched the video several times. I paid close attention to Silvio lifting up the chair over his head.

I'm convinced he never intended to hit anyone with that chair. He was posturing. It's a cultural thing because he's actually a chilled out guy coming from a chilled out culture.

If his intention was violence, he had time before the chair to really beat on some people. He was backing up and even though Silvio may be the strongest guy on our team I think he is harmless and has no concept of how to fight. I doubt if he has ever been in a fight before.

bskeet said:

tundrahok said:

@bskeet I meant I disagree with Bilas. He said it was unnecessary. I thought it was awesome. At least, if had ended there.

Oh! I had not heard Bilas say that. I thought in his column earlier in the week, he was not critical of the block..

Anyway, I will give him credit for being very level-headed, thoughtful and balanced on this topic. But I will agree with you that the block itself was not the problem. I might even go so far as to say it was appropriate given the steal.

Anyone criticizing the block should remember this simple equation: No steal = No block.

The block was never the issue. If Silvio still makes that block, lets out a yell while walking away, nothing else happens. Standing over Gordon is what sparked everything else that followed. We can blame Love for coming off the bench and he definitely deserves his fair share of blame for that, but it doesn't mean Silvio wasn't in the wrong standing over Gordon and taunting him as well.

Yes Silvio’s actions where those of a jerk, but that doesn’t make it ok to hit him. Jeez I tell my four year old this crap, you’d think adults would have it figured out.

@dylans No one has said that it made it "ok to hit him." Can you find one person here who said that? The first punch being thrown was stupidity. "Ok" isn't the discussion.

I quite sure that you teach your four year old that if you take certain actions, then certain unfortunate consequences may follow. That doesn't make those consequences "ok." But in life, there are experiences that tell us that consequences, "ok" or not, may follow.

What would be your reaction to the unprovoked thug-like response by Silvio to stand over him? Would you calmly look up at his junk and let the moment pass? If you were the KSU player's teammates, would you stand by and just observe? We've seen folks very complimentary (and correctly so in my opinion) of KU players coming to Silvio's side. That's what the KSU players did in the face of Silvio thug-like response.

The punches thrown were not "ok". But a physical confrontation after Silvio poor behavior is an expected response as would be a little pushing and shoving as part of that.

If I'm in line at the store and a woman and man in front of me are going slow, and I scream, "Come on, would you f-ing hurry up?" And the man reacts and turns and pushes me really hard in the chest, knocking me down, is that "ok." Should he have have done that? Probably not. But is it within the realm of expected responses? Absolutely. My conduct was akin to Silvio's in the context of the situation. A reasonable response might be the man turning, confronting me, and suggesting I shut my mouth. That's seems about what the initial response of the KSU players was. The first punch was much, much different, much like the guy in the line at the store becoming violent and knocking me down (in the example).

There is nothing about stealing the ball and going in for a layup that would cause one to expect Silvio's thug-like response. Nothing. Not even close to reasonable. Steals, layups and swats happen all the time.

However, when someone is standing over someone like a thug while the other is laying on the ground, it is quite expected that a confrontation may occur. Who wouldn't expect that?

There were three events that occurred here that were completely unreasonable and completely out of the realm of reason .. 1) Silvio standing over him like a thug, 2) the first punch thrown, and 3) Silvio picking up the chair.

The first act in that sequence was Silvio. The suspensions and assessment of blame that goes with that seems about perfect.

Can some folks read or listen to this piece please about the word “thug”? It’s a solid academic take on language and race and how those things work together and against each other. It’s not very long nor do I think it’s political in nature. Words matter.

https://www.npr.org/2015/04/30/403362626/the-racially-charged-meaning-behind-the-word-thug ↗

@benshawks08 when white supremacists use the word thug I cringe. Many times people become racist without realizing it. I've got a video I need to post about this later when I'm home.

@HighEliteMajor By your logic (and as you’ve mentioned before) taunting happens all the time too but fighting and brawls don’t. We all agree the taunt was wrong but it is entirely possible To be tainted and then not fight. I would argue that is the manlier response, to have enough pride and self respect to not let someone else define your masculinity. Get up and walk away. Master your emotions. That’s what we need to be praising boys and young men for if we want to prevent things like this from happening again.

BShark said:

@benshawks08 when white supremacists use the word thug I cringe. Many times people become racist without realizing it. I've got a video I need to post about this later when I'm home.

Right, it’s might be different if the guy didn’t overtly advertise how racist he is in about every third post. At what point is enough enough with this crap? Go post that crap on stormfront or breitbart, ya know?

I use the word thug purposefully and with intention. The meltdown is always entertaining. The glorification of the thug demands recognition of the thug. Perhaps if it wasn’t glorified some might not associate the conduct with the word.

@HighEliteMajor Purposefully and intentionally racist. Got it. Glad your ok with that. I won’t be.

"I use the word thug purposefully and with intention. The meltdown is always entertaining."

Wikepedia: "In internet slang, a troll is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses and normalizing tangential discussion, whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain."

Astounding. I have never seen anyone admit being one so aptly! I wonder if the entry can be edited to provide a link to that admission.

@mayjay I just wish I could read about basketball without having to confront white supremacy every other day. Not sure how a person of color could stand to be on this site.

@benshawks08 some have left.

mayjay said:

"I use the word thug purposefully and with intention. The meltdown is always entertaining."

Wikepedia: "In internet slang, a troll is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses and normalizing tangential discussion, whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain."

Astounding. I have never seen anyone admit being one so aptly! I wonder if the entry can be edited to provide a link to that admission.

lmao, al I can say is Dammmmmmm , Score. - very solid, ol wikepedia CAN be useful after all. -couldn't of been said better.

Now , that incident was last Tuesday , that all is in the past, the past is the past, you can't change the past all you can do is look ahead - -today for today lie I said the past is the past , live today for today because tomorrow is never promised. Time to drop this , even though there are some that will still try to continue to stir the pot - -nothing can be changed & I agree 100 % with your post -- some just keep wanting to go on & on & on - -I think the definition of a troll pretty well says it all -perfect example some people that's just who they are they want to see if they can get people worked up ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG ABBY

benshawks08 said:

Can some folks read or listen to this piece please about the word “thug”? It’s a solid academic take on language and race and how those things work together and against each other. It’s not very long nor do I think it’s political in nature. Words matter.

https://www.npr.org/2015/04/30/403362626/the-racially-charged-meaning-behind-the-word-thug ↗

Good find.

I used the term 'punks' as well as 'thugs' because I think they describe similar behavior but have acquired racially-specific connotations over time.

Too bad there isn't a word like 'pungs' or 'thunks' that could neutralize the racial aspects and allow us to focus on the behavior.

"Jerk" is a good word. Or for aggressive people, "pugilistic."

Silvio looked all pugilistic at Gordon!

@bskeet I think the key is to just describe the behavior instead of trying to then come up with a name to call a person. It’s hard to do and often takes more words and significantly more thought, two things I don’t always have. But I think it’s worth it to try.

@mayjay pugilist is a very underused word!

Of course, my entire point on all of this is preservation of life. I have tried to highlight that urban areas and the violence is ignored. It’s sickening. Black lives taken in mass numbers and all folks do is blame guns and racism and whatever else is convenient to ignore the truth. Meanwhile, while their protectors and enablers wring their hands, more die. This is a great example of why things don’t change.

It doesn’t matter the logic, or the stats, or the crime maps, or proof. It doesn’t matter what we see with our own eyes and how, for example, behavior by athletes has noticeably shifted in the last 20-25 years and the me first, pound the chest, screaming, gyrating, etc. None of it matters.

None of it matters because folks don’t have the guts to discuss all options.

Done.

@HighEliteMajor Yeah when one person says they know THE TRUTH and aren’t just saying they are friends with paul pierce I’m going to be critical. There is never ONE reason or factor to such a massive issue like the broad issue you call inner city violence. You tell people that they are ignoring what is right in front of them but do no self reflection on what you might not be able to see from your perspective. Try learning something instead of preaching for a change.

@benshawks08 Well, I never said that. I never said one reason. I’ve fully explained my position. On the other hand, you have spent much effort suggesting my position has zero merit. Hell, when we began this a while back you were surprised at the out of wedlock birthrates I quoted, which is the core factor, in my opinion.

@HighEliteMajor Positions that start with racism are in my book without merit so you got me there. You didn’t talk just about out of wedlock births. They were specifically black single moms that were the problem. Or was it the black men who weren’t around who were the problem? It’s hard to keep track of which black person is your problem at any given moment.

We live in strange times.

I have to say that I really don't like how our society hijacks words and phrases... applying some kind of definitive current, popular trend.

Thinking about "thug"... I've used that word (sometimes) throughout my life. It never ONCE was meant to be some sort of secret code for the "n-word." I applied the word meaning rough people who attempt to control a situation with violence or brute force. That brute force can be non-violent. I mentioned examples in my previous post.

The constant addition of meanings to language can create problems as much as help identify problems. For example... some may now think I'm a racist because I used the word "thug."

Look at our country right now. It's building powder keg over stuff like this. I doubt there are many people who want to be tagged "racist." And though they may have done something or made a statement that falls into this new prejudgment system pointing to being labeled "racist" the prejudgment in itself is the same potential "character flaw" that goes with the definition of "racist."

My perspective is to give people the benefit of the doubt and think positively about them. It's worked for me my entire life and I am truly blessed with many friends from all walks of life.

I hope we can move past making judgments of each other and focus on our love for Jayhawk basketball.

@drgnslayr The coopting of the word "thug" was done by the racists who used it as a code, not by the people who recognized it as it was happening. Many of us have used it innocently throughout our lives, but not resorting to using it because of its inflammatory context is a small price to pay for avoiding misunderstandings.

Here in SC, I have heard defenses of "boy" meaning any black man, and people who claim the n-word can be used by whites in general conversation as a term of affection. And many whites here seem to think it is important to note that someone is black when race has nothing to do with anything in the conversation. (2 weeks ago a retired Army Lt Col I met: "We went to our grandson's basketball game on Saturday. He always gets into the game but doesn't really try to score. They were playing a team of black kids.")

Racism is nowhere near going away. It does tend to be more subtle. But when it is more hidden, is it less dangerous--or more? And I agree hardly anyone wants to be called "racist", but why would they? "By their fruits ye shall know them" goes to character as well as faith.

Well one thing came to light for sure with the suspensions on Saturday.

That is without Dave's availability when Doke is not on the floor, if we have to go an extended amount of time - - we are screwed.

Thank GOD we have only one more game and that is tonight. perfect example was Saturday as soon as Doke was out Tennessee took it inside and we had NO ANSWER none - - period. It became really evident there was zero resistence. Now I know that Mc Cormack is not some super stud and a scoring Machine , and I also know that he at this point is not a Doke by far on the defensive end.

However what Dave is , is another Big body that yes can get some rebounds and at least be a body - -a big body that makes it harder for the other team to Score. I mean when Doke was out Saturday it wasn't like there was a small leak in the Dam - -more like an all out breach. Will be glad to have McCormack for the fore mentioned reason. - Pretty obvious what happens without no Dave - - No Silvio , we have no answer. -- ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@jayballer73

Yeah when Doke was on the bench it created a big problem. The unexpected foul trouble just made it even worse.

I will say that this was kind of the perfect storm of situations. I don't know many teams that could prepare in 3-4 days to have guys guarding positions they normally don't. Enaruna & Agbaji were in tough spots especially. Pons of Tennessee is an athletic freak and is a tough matchup for anyone. It didn't look great without Doke on the floor he was a game changer on both ends. He's become one of the most important and impactful players in all of College Basketball. He's playing at an All American level

@mayjay

Silent racism is the worst. All you want to know is who doesn't like you so you know what is going on.

I've never like the word "racist" even though these people who fit the description are out there. I'd rather call it "blind hatred." The result is hatred, whether very outgoing or subtle. Using the word "racist" just flames everything negatively because we have attached many definitions to the word and no one likes to be described down to a 't'.

Happy people don't have time for hatred. Let's all cure hatred in the world and almost every problem in the world will vanish. I don't have time or energy to hate KKK people back. I feel sympathetic with these people for having a life often based on hatred. I hope and pray they find a way to be happy and love the world. Better for them, better for everyone!

BeddieKU23 said:

@jayballer73

Yeah when Doke was on the bench it created a big problem. The unexpected foul trouble just made it even worse.

I will say that this was kind of the perfect storm of situations. I don't know many teams that could prepare in 3-4 days to have guys guarding positions they normally don't. Enaruna & Agbaji were in tough spots especially. Pons of Tennessee is an athletic freak and is a tough matchup for anyone. It didn't look great without Doke on the floor he was a game changer on both ends. He's become one of the most important and impactful players in all of College Basketball. He's playing at an All American level

Boy , he sure is. Mercy Doke just looks so much better , since sliming down & toned - just really looks a lot more athletic. Moves his feet better. I don't remember him being that much of a rim protector before , gotta think he has to feel better also, better conditioned.

I'm a little worried about Enaruna , I'm sure it will work out. Yet even as raw as he was he looked better in the early going, now just looks totally lost, I'm sure it's in his head now - - typical freshman, then I'm sure he is also another over thinkin kid trying to hard and worried about getting yanked , probably overwhelming - it will come. He has talent we know that, showed early on had some really smooth drives to the hole, yet it even looks like he has lost what little bit of shot he had - -just takes time. Just will be good to get McCormack back. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@jayballer73

Yep its the best version of Doke we've seen at KU. He's put in the work and seeing the fruits of his labor. This past weekends game was one of the few where foul trouble has been a concern for him this year. His feel on the defensive side (sliding feet, impacting shots without fouling has improved leaps and bounds) and its exciting to see. Hopefully tonight he can stay on the floor a bit more without foul concerns.

@drgnslayr You are right that love over hate is the goal. Starting by giving the benefit of the doubt and assuming positive intent are also worthy aspirations. There are times though as Maya Angelou says, “when a person shows you who they are, believe them.” That’s kind of where I am with @HighEliteMajor at this point. At some point all that benefit of the doubt just becomes enabling or silent acceptance. That’s why I feel the need to call it out and call it racism whenever I see it. Racism is prejudice plus power. If we always give those in power the benefit of the doubt, those without power suffer.

It is really hard to respond to hate with love and definitely something we could all get better at.

@benshawks08 Turning the other cheek become more difficult when they go for all four of them!

@mayjay If I remember correctly a couple of mine were threatened not too long ago! Lol.

@benshawks08 I have clearly said that the out of wedlock births are the most important factor. And yea, if it's blacks we're talking about, it would be black men and women. You have zero credibility when you mock this issue. But the left is big on that -- mocking consideration of issues that threaten their narrative. Look at the idiots in Chicago in response to Rahm Emanuel. It was like a bomb went off. That's not logic. It's irrationality. That's you. You are that.

Folks cry racism all the time. I'm well beyond being that concerned about that diluted word being thrown at me here. That's fine. It's easy to type, it's easy to feel, but it avoids defeating arguments. If @mayjay or you, or anyone else defines my comments as racist, I'm good with that. I am clearly talking about things in racial terms. That's fits the broad brush with most that cry racism. Similarly, when you or other folks discuss white privilege, or male privilege, that would be broad brush racist or sexist. I don't care to really indulge that line of debate.

I was at a Christmas party a year + ago and a black woman was ranting about Trump. I had the temerity to suggest that many of us voted for him, not because we like him or his demeanor, but because we preferred his policies over Clinton. You would have thought I donned a KKK mask and jumped on horse. It was the spewing of irrational accusations and garbage that quite frankly is much akin to what you offer. It doesn't matter to you and leftists. You cry racism and that's the end of the discussion. You have no ability to debate a topic.

I know I hate seeing the murder, mayhem and violence. That's what I hate. People dying. I know that doesn't really occur in mass quantities in the suburbs or much in rural areas, even per capita as previously discussed. I do know that when I look at crime maps they tend to match up quite obviously with racial populations. I do know the violent crime stats. I do know reality. Don't walk the street at 23rd and Prospect in KC. Feel free to walk the street at 103rd and Antioch in OP. That's reality. I believe I've identified some very large reasons why. Of course, folks like you think that crime maps by race are racist, I've heard the arguments.

If you and your family are walking down the street at 43rd and Prospect and a group of black teens are following. Fear for your safety? If you and you're family are at 103rd and Antioch in OP, walking down the street, and a group of white teens are following. Fear for your safety? Ground level. Reality. Undeniable. Of course, the first response is that one would never walk down the street at 43rd and Prospect with their family. Right.

The fact is each race, in large part, has its culture. It's something that binds people. To ignore that it is to ignore facts. There is a perverted culture within the inner city black communities that is broken, it's destructive, and at its core, causes mass death and destruction. The results are undeniable.

I pointed out another broken culture that was/is within the Catholic church and the assaults on young boys. Very similar discussion.

Without that diluted word "racism" holding folks back from an honest, all points discussion, my argument wins in a knockout. Based on this wide ranging debate, with all the shots taken, there is nothing that even caused swelling. But invoke the word racism and everything else goes out the window with some. It's easier to worry about the word "racism" than challenge your thoughts and take the risk of offending.

By the way, I'm done with this topic in the basketball section. Anyone that wants the final word feel free.

@HighEliteMajor I'm with you. You can have it. Wait - dang it.

@HighEliteMajor No one has argued that violent crime isn't a problem. Nor have a "mocked this issue" whatever that means. There has been significant argument about what you've "identified" as "some very large reasons why." Crime maps by race are not inherently racist but become that when a person uses it to argue that one race is better/worse than another. You either believe that all people are created equal or you don't. You can declare my stance as lacking credibility but I'm comfortable with the problems I've pointed out in your "wins in a knockout" argument. You see, I am not proposing to have THE answer to violent crime because I don't know everything about the statistics, the causes, or the people involved. It's clear you've spent more time studying the issue than I have but that doesn't make your conclusions correct. You can declare yourself the smartest person in the room and the winner of all arguments but you continue to refuse to reevaluate your own stance and accept the problems that many on here of pointed out.

Your little scenario gets directly at the problem with your argument. It seems you have a natural fear of black people and are comfortable attributing the actions of a few to an entire group of people. That prejudice tints your view of everything and closes you off to seeing things from another perspective. Perhaps try to "challenge your thoughts" and take the risk of admitting you could be wrong.

@HighEliteMajor You assume too much. The only time I got mugged, it was on Belinder Road and 67th in Mission Hills by 2 white guys who went to Rockhurst.

Interestingly, it had racial overtones due to the 'fro I was wearing. They took objection to it.

just saying friends I think he said he was done with the topic , think we just time to move along from this and find FUN things to talk about -OR whatever you want to go on - -then that's up to you I guess , he surrendered lol. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

Not to stir up this can of worms.... but...

Am I the only one in here that is worried about what science will discover in the future concerning the human species?

What if science finds DNA markers that match certain specific generalizations often attributed to race? Especially negative generalizations.

What would we do as a society? Might we finally come to the realization that we have to accept each other, flaws and all, and work towards something positive?

At least I will sleep better knowing science can point to some good, too:

We can learn a lot from rats. I'm not talking about people we call "rats." I'm talking about rats!

https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/are_rats ↗

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3884117/ ↗

There is a lesson in this for all of us.

Peace all!

@drgnslayr So far all the science points exactly to the opposite. Race doesn't even really exist scientifically. It's a social construct.

Science is pesky like that.

drgnslayr said:

Not to stir up this can of worms.... but...

Am I the only one in here that is worried about what science will discover in the future concerning the human species?

What if science finds DNA markers that match certain specific generalizations often attributed to race? Especially negative generalizations.

What would we do as a society? Might we finally come to the realization that we have to accept each other, flaws and all, and work towards something positive?

At least I will sleep better knowing science can point to some good, too:

We can learn a lot from rats. I'm not talking about people we call "rats." I'm talking about rats!

https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/are_rats ↗

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3884117/ ↗

There is a lesson in this for all of us.

Peace all!

I think science already has a decent grasp of specific group differences. It's widely accepted in the Ev Psych community that IQ has some genetic component and is highly heritable (most correlations are .5-.6). We also see certain groups have comparative advantage in certain things. For example Ashkenazi Jews are wildly overrepresented among Nobel laureates (20% of Nobel winners are Jews, but they're less than .2% of the population).

So we know there's something going on, but we really don't know the mix between nature and nurture that leads to these differences. Is it possible that groups evolved slightly differently since they lived apart for so long? Sure, I guess. But we don't know the magnitude of those changes, all we have is distributions of characteristics by race and how they overlap but can't really explain why there are differences at the tails of each (Jews have a very fat right tail of the IQ distribution, blacks have a slightly larger left tail relative to Asians). The medians are all nearly indistinguishable.

So what do we do with this information? Basically nothing. We treat little Johnny or Sue with the dignity they deserve no matter how smart they are and give them the resources they need to succeed. Some groups will be overrepresented in certain occupations (e.g. men in construction) but if people are happy who cares? Some will run with it and day group differences should dictate policy but collectivism is dumb and intellectually lazy.

@FarmerJayhawk

Thank you for taking the time and energy to give a thoughtful response. Very good read and gave me things to think about.

mayjay said:

@drgnslayr The coopting of the word "thug" was done by the racists who used it as a code, not by the people who recognized it as it was happening. Many of us have used it innocently throughout our lives, but not resorting to using it because of its inflammatory context is a small price to pay for avoiding misunderstandings.

Here in SC, I have heard defenses of "boy" meaning any black man, and people who claim the n-word can be used by whites in general conversation as a term of affection. And many whites here seem to think it is important to note that someone is black when race has nothing to do with anything in the conversation. (2 weeks ago a retired Army Lt Col I met: "We went to our grandson's basketball game on Saturday. He always gets into the game but doesn't really try to score. They were playing a team of black kids.")

Racism is nowhere near going away. It does tend to be more subtle. But when it is more hidden, is it less dangerous--or more? And I agree hardly anyone wants to be called "racist", but why would they? "By their fruits ye shall know them" goes to character as well as faith.

And somewhere a black man and or woman might have been talking about the very same game that the Lt. Col's grandson was in while saying, "we were playing a team of white kids." Does that make him, her or both racist? Thug is a word that has a specific meaning - in general, not a big fan of policing a word just because someone has decided to co-opt it. I am also not big into thought-policing, find it to be very dangerous. Why? Because it means that a person wants to hear only one viewpoint or opinion.

I am going to invent a new product called OverSensitime, that way the entire nation can be given an enema and be able to get all of this shit out of their system.

@Marco No word has a “very specific meaning.” Language is about a combination of denotation and connotation. Both are constantly in flux as languages blend and meld, grow and die. Don’t think anyone is saying don’t use this word or that but are instead making sure people understand the different connotations a word might have. Hate speech is still protected speech in America but that doesn’t mean you can say whatever you want without consequences. The words we use show who we are, especially on the internet where things like nonverbal indicators and tone of voice are wholly absent.

benshawks08 said:

@Marco No word has a “very specific meaning.” Language is about a combination of denotation and connotation. Both are constantly in flux as languages blend and meld, grow and die. Don’t think anyone is saying don’t use this word or that but are instead making sure people understand the different connotations a word might have. Hate speech is still protected speech in America but that doesn’t mean you can say whatever you want without consequences. The words we use show who we are, especially on the internet where things like nonverbal indicators and tone of voice are wholly

I did not say very specific meaning, but yeah it's meaning is pretty very specific.

@Marco Guess that's what I get for trying to post at 2:30 in the morning! Sorry for misquoting you. Did you edit your post or was I dreaming that it said something different the last time I read it? Again, it was 2:30 so that is possible I was!

And no, it's not specific at all. It's quite muddy and vague at this point.

This led me to look it up. Very interesting (from Google):

"a member of a religious organization of robbers and assassins in India. Devotees of the goddess Kali, the Thugs waylaid and strangled their victims, usually travelers, in a ritually prescribed manner. They were suppressed by the British in the 1830s."

@mayjay Yep. That seems to be the exact definition people use it for today. Hasn't changed a bit!

Ralphie May’s take - no word is the problem, it’s the venom behind them.

More of the same, then makes his defense for Kobe. Funny, but crude.

@dylans

Interesting perspective to overuse words to eventually strip them of their power.

Not sure about that. And that may work for youth. Not sure it will work for elders.

I'm thinking of the n-word and I'm thinking of some elder people in the south who were often threatened or beaten while being called that word out of hatred. Is it realistic for them to learn to stop cringing if they hear that word overused? I have my doubts.

I don't think words are all the same or should be treated the same. I don't think thug is equal to the n-word. Thug doesn't have the history here in America like the n-word has.

I know a lot of black people that never gave young black people a thumbs up on using the n-word, even when they changed the word by adding an "a" to it.

Certain words, like the n-word, have too much negative history associated with it. People were beaten and killed within the context of that word. Thug is just a word that has been hijacked recently by many.

Just my opinion.

I HATE the N word. Now have to tell you some experiences I used to have.

When I used to live in Wichita and I would go play ball at the park, usually was like me and maybe one or two other white be there playing and the rest Blacks.

Always got a kick out of this we would all be playing and one black would be hot dogging and then like drive to the hole and another ol boy raise up and slap the hell out of and start talking all kinds of smack - things like get that S- - - out of here N - - - - - . sorry you have to fill in the blanks. They use to call one another that ALL DAY, as much as I hate the word was kind of funny listening to them talk their smack to one another. - The would call one another that al the time.

Now it was fine for them to do that , BUT let me tell you If you were a White or anyone else ummmm you better not be saying anything like that , you best be remembering where you at and who your with lol.

Sorry I apologize I realize that really isn't what your all discussing as much - - but just thinking and relate, myself I really have a huge dis like for the N word. Got several black friends - to me that word is just total dis respect. - -Anyways ok i'm out. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@drgnslayr Not a word I use. To me the more salient point is that words are just air, it’s the intent behind them that’s important. More on point - it’s silly that other word/symbols get hi-jacked like rainbow in his other skit.

I'm just not into calling people names with bad intent. If I did I would feel pathetic for not being smart enough to communicate more effectively. I don't think hate is any kind of vehicle I want to ride in.

Peace all!

@jayballer73

Sounds familiar to my playground days except I may not have been as pale as you.

I got so tired of hearing that word. It wore me out. And it convinced me that when some of the black culture accepted using that word it was like they chose to carry bags of sand on their heads. It's excess baggage.

I knew a lot of people on that court and I can't think of many (any) that ever made much of a quality of life for themselves.

I compare that to black friends that never accepted that word as part of their vocabulary and they had more successful lives.

Someone trained at the right background would better comment about this. I can only share what I experienced... but it seemed like anyone who uses that word regularly carries the heavy weight behind it and life is tough carrying all that weight.

@drgnslayr If you use the N word regardless of your race I consider you uneducated and simple minded. It’s insanely stupid, I feel the same way about the B word. A bunch of girls walk into a bar calling each other B****, it’s all laughs. Until someone else from the bar calls one of them that name, then there is a fight. Same story with a bunch of guys saying the N word.

I can't think of any words that I'm so attached to that I can't just let them go. (Maybe the F word). There are hundreds of phrases and rhymes that a lot of us learned as kids that were racist, anti-semitic, anti-native, misogynistic etc. Harmless stuff, right? Sure. That fucking tomahawk chop and chant for the Chiefs. Ugh. Ten years from now we'll all (hopefully) be blushingly embarrassed about that. It's culturally ignorant. It's just dumb white stupid. Some of us never thought about language until we got out of our little enclaves, got older, met people, learned some stuff, and realized that rhetoric could be inherently toxic. Some of us never got out of it.

Privileged white people (GUYs especially) don't have to think about words. That's why being called out as being a racist is such an confrontational insult...whoa, me? I don't care about race. Sure. You never had to. Don't beat yourselves up, cupcakes, about not using "THUGS" to describe black basketball players.. Good grief. Let the words go. It's really the absolute least we can do.

End of a rare rant for me. Peace. Go Chefs.

@DanR

"Go Chefs?"

I like that! We can all wear chef's toques to games and we can up the tailgate parties to sophisticated yummies and wine instead of beer!

Someone needs a snickers

benshawks08 said:

@Marco Guess that's what I get for trying to post at 2:30 in the morning! Sorry for misquoting you. Did you edit your post or was I dreaming that it said something different the last time I read it? Again, it was 2:30 so that is possible I was!

And no, it's not specific at all. It's quite muddy and vague at this point.

No, I didn't edit it. But guess what? We're good. I was just offering an opinion, as were you.

mayjay said:

This led me to look it up. Very interesting (from Google):

"a member of a religious organization of robbers and assassins in India. Devotees of the goddess Kali, the Thugs waylaid and strangled their victims, usually travelers, in a ritually prescribed manner. They were suppressed by the British in the 1830s."

Lol! How dare you get all technical on us!

kjayhawks said:

@drgnslayr If you use the N word regardless of your race I consider you uneducated and simple minded. It’s insanely stupid, I feel the same way about the B word. A bunch of girls walk into a bar calling each other B****, it’s all laughs. Until someone else from the bar calls one of them that name, then there is a fight. Same story with a bunch of guys saying the N word.

Agree on all counts. How much do you want to bet that women who refer to themselves as bitches also treat themselves and are treated by others as such?

@wissox

What in flippin flip is going on with Wisconsin? Kobe King quits the team, Davidson a low blow puncher and suspension. Seems like Gard on hot water. What ya say??

Marco said:

mayjay said:

This led me to look it up. Very interesting (from Google):

"a member of a religious organization of robbers and assassins in India. Devotees of the goddess Kali, the Thugs waylaid and strangled their victims, usually travelers, in a ritually prescribed manner. They were suppressed by the British in the 1830s."

Lol! How dare you get all technical on us!

Actually, I found it interesting due to what must be thousands of novels written for mass-market publishing and Kindle that are based on secretive cabals and religious assassination squads. Like the Da Vinci Code. I thought these were all "pigments" of writers' "colorful" imaginations!

@BeddieKU23 Yeah, the team is in dissaray a bit. There's discontent on the message boards with Gard. King proves there's some discontent on the team with him. Rod Strickland's son left last season after 1 unproductive season and blamed Gard.

Like KU, Wisconsin has played one of the top schedules in the country, last I looked UW was #1 SOS and KU #3. That's taken a beating on the team.

Davison is one of my favorite players on the team and I've always bristled at the criticism towards him. The thing the other night may or may not have been dirty. I guess when you're hand goes there, and i'm not sure why it did, people are going to assume the worst, and that's fair I guess in this case. He's an indespensible player on the Badgers. With the Badgers SOS, they should make the tourney with about 6-7 more wins. UW is through the most difficult stretch of their schedule after MSU tomorrow. So it's doable, but probably not the year for a deep tourney run.

@wissox

I was seeing this wasn't Davidson's first suspension for the same issue, I believe it happened last year as well. Not a good trend to be setting and in this latest one it was Iowa's Coaches son. Yikes.

@BeddieKU23 Not remembering he was suspended for the first one. That one was interpreted by some as a two childhood friends messing around on the court, which apparently he and the Hauser kid were. Of course that incident was a costly one in that game against Marquette.

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/28620716/houston-coach-admits-dejon-jarreau-bit-cincy-player-suspends-one-game ↗

Bizarre, players now bite.

In the last two weeks we've seen a brawl, a player stepped on his chest, a low blow and now a biting incident.

BeddieKU23 said:

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/28620716/houston-coach-admits-dejon-jarreau-bit-cincy-player-suspends-one-game ↗

Bizarre, players now bite.

In the last two weeks we've seen a brawl, a player stepped on his chest, a low blow and now a biting incident.

Ya and that's what we call COLLEGE Basketball ?

@BeddieKU23 Kid is literally hungry for victory.