https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/28674255/bob-knight-indiana-make-many-college-basketball-grudges-remain ↗

Wichita State vs. Bill Self

Bill Self has stated that playing Wichita State won't benefit his Kansas team, much to the chagrin of Shockers fans. Jay Biggerstaff/USA TODAY Sports
By population, Kansas (2.9 million) isn't much bigger than Chicago (2.7 million). But the Midwestern state has played a critical role in college basketball. Three of its top schools -- Kansas State, Kansas and Wichita State -- have combined to reach the Elite Eight seven times since 2010.

Wichita State's run to the Final Four in 2013 -- and its overall rise under Gregg Marshall -- sparked a clamoring for an annual matchup with Kansas, one of college basketball's powerhouses. The Shockers haven't played the Jayhawks in the regular season since a 1993 matchup at Allen Fieldhouse, which sits about 160 miles from Wichita State's campus.

But Wichita State beat Kansas in the second round of the NCAA tournament in 2015.

"This isn't knocking Wichita State," Self told The Kansas City Star in 2013. "But if it was best for our program, I would reach out to them about scheduling them. But it's not."

Self has praised Wichita State in recent years, but he has also maintained that an annual series with Wichita State wouldn't help his program. That hasn't stopped Wichita State fans from accusing Self of dodging the Shockers.

@dylans " That hasn’t stopped Wichita State fans from accusing Self of dodging the Shockers."

Wichita State is a wanna be who actually is a decent team - once every 30 years. They have a ways to go. I enjoyed watching a so-so Houston team DESTROY them by.....what was it - 33 the other day? Lol

I laugh my butt off every time someone mentions Marsha coaching at a real school. He's a terrible coach - but he is smart enough to know that he's a big fish in a little pond. If he ever goes anywhere, it will be to an even smaller, more nondescript school.

I don't see the benefit of playing WSU in the regular season.

I would like to see a Sprint Center battle one year with KSU, KU, WSU and MU as our tournament. That'd be a ton of fun at PnL. Just two exhibitions in two day. KU plays MU and then WSU the next day. KSU plays WSU and then MU.

But that'd never happen.

This is made even better by the fact that we started playing Missouri again.

Wichita is back to being an irrelevant mid major. They are JAGs in the American. Should have stayed in the MVC and inflated their record.

Mizzou is 💩 too!

Yeah but they are at least a P5 team and the game will sell out in KC.

Our games don't sell out there. U think Mizzou fans that don't go to their own games will show?

@Crimsonorblue22 Yes. It's KU. They HATE us.

@BShark but they suck!

@Kcmatt7 said in WSU grudge:

I don't see the benefit of playing WSU in the regular season.

I would like to see a Sprint Center battle one year with KSU, KU, WSU and MU as our tournament. That'd be a ton of fun at PnL. Just two exhibitions in two day. KU plays MU and then WSU the next day. KSU plays WSU and then MU.

But that'd never happen.

that would be a great idea. How about playing that on an annual basis just like the tournament of Champions and just keep rotating the opposition every year? - -Wichita/Ku one year & K-state/Missouri - -then next year KU/Missouri and KState? Wichita St? - -see what I mean?

@Crimsonorblue22 said in WSU grudge:

Our games don't sell out there. U think Mizzou fans that don't go to their own games will show?

they would show for sure - -it's KU did you forget how much these two schools and fans hate one another? - - -I haven't

I don't wanna help them out.

There is no rational argument to suggest that this would not benefit KU. None. It's complete disinformation by Bill Self. He's famous for that. I mean, why would we play MU? Remember all of his disinformation? Well, now, all of a sudden, it IS in our best interests.

We just played UMKC at the Sprint Center. New Mexico St? Nebraska? Davidson? I also understand we need to play some easy games too, so I'll leave off all the non-descript puds we play. But to suggest this game doesn't benefit KU is absolute baloney. I've heard that we schedule non-con to help with recruiting. Sure. Look, playing UMKC, UNM, or Neb. doesn't help recruiting. It doesn't. Davison from NC, maybe a little -- maybe. But traveling to destinations so they can see us is what really helps. But whatever. That is a tired, ragged, useless card to play.

Self got his tail kicked in embarrassing fashion by WSU in 2015. A complete an utter embarrassment. And that's the last taste left in our mouths. WSU kicking our tails. Dominating us.

As a KU fan, I want to play WSU. I want to correct that wrong. I want to kick their a**. Just like with MU. But Self makes it appear we are chicken. Clucking chickens. When he's the chicken.

It would highly energize our fan base. That alone is a benefit. But maybe Self is scared of losing. That such a loss would create negativity. That's the "chicken" theory.

For those that want to defame the WSU program, tell me this -- Name a Big 12 program, say, since we won the NC in '08, that has been consistently better than WSU? There may be some debate. But the debate pretty much exposes Self's lie/disinformation.

Look, I know there are some that knee-jerk and buy whatever Self sells, or simply feel it best to mock other programs or their coach. That's all fine. But ... shhhhhh .. WSU has as many Final Fours over the last 7 seasons.

Clucking chickens, walking down the road, flapping their wings. At least it appears that way.

Pretty sure Marsha doesn't want to play us. 🍳🥚

As a fan, sure I want to watch it.

But Bill is actually stingy with his away games. He isn't going to give one of them to WSU. And he isn't going to give a helping hand in recruiting to WSU.

The thing is, WSU would have this as their #1 game to bring recruits to all season long. KU would not be bringing recruits to this game.

KU vs MU, I guarantee KU will have recruits behind the bench for that game because the atmosphere is going to be insane. There is an actual trade off.

KU as a program benefits absolutely none by giving WSU a game in Wichita.

And the truth is that WSU doesn't want to schedule KU either or it'd be done already. They want a home game, and know that it is never going to happen. So they keep dragging this same conversation up every season.

@Kcmatt7

The first thing that pops into my head is recruiting in regards to not playing them

I am for playing Wichita State if we don't give them a single game in Wichita. They don't deserve that. That would be like giving Davidson or New Mexico State that HEM brought up a home game. Villanova and Stanford get road games, not puds like Wichita. San Diego State in 2015 was the last time we played a non P5 school in a true road game.

@Kcmatt7 is correct, if Wichita wanted this done we would be playing them in Lawrence and KC.

Marsha has never tried to schedule us.🐣

@BeddieKU23 Yea I don't know why we'd let them have a recruiting spectacle at our expense. It makes no sense, especially when you consider the talent that we actually do compete for in Wichita.

So we, KU ... you know, history, blue blood, top program ... worries about recruiting competition from WSU?

Like we worry about playing MU and recruiting competition in KC or St. Louis, or the state of Missouri? Much more fertile recruiting territory?

See how that argument is irrelevant given Self's contradictory actions with MU?

To me it's all about risk reward. Like it or not, playing WSU is a risk. That is just where the two programs are right now. They are good enough to beat us but not good enough for a win over them to really mean anything for our resume. Do we play other teams of a similar ilk, yes but usually at home. And yes recruiting is a factor though I would argue not a major one. Self wants first pick of any Kansas talent without having to spend to much time or resources wooing them. A loss to WSU could alter that dynamic. Comparing it to MU is nonsensical. KU v MU is one of the oldest rivalries in ALL of college sports. This rekindling of that rivalry has massive promotional advantages and could bring eyeballs nationwide. KU v WSU is just not that.

I personally would like to play WSU because I think we smash them almost every year and it could shut up some folks from the home town. But that doesn't mean the argument for not playing them is irrelevant.

@HighEliteMajor So - I gather you're not the president of the Bill Self Fan Club?

WSU declined a home and home with KSUCK last season. WSU won’t play anyone now that Baker and Co are gone. I wish we’d schedule them, no one beats us consistently

Mid-majors get a nice check to come play KU at Allen or Sprint. WSU has never expressed any interest in a buy game, and a home and home makes zero sense for KU. Why give up the revenue from that home game? The programs have nothing in common except sharing a state. If they'd take a discount to play a buy game at AFH since travel is cheap then I'd consider it but again, the administration over there hasn't shown any interest in that since they cut off the series in the 90's. Takes two to tango and currently there's nobody on the dance floor.

@nuleafjhawk said in WSU grudge:

@HighEliteMajor So - I gather you're not the president of the Bill Self Fan Club?

LMAO, DAM now what would EVER give you that Idea ROFLMAO

@FarmerJayhawk said in WSU grudge:

Mid-majors get a nice check to come play KU at Allen or Sprint. WSU has never expressed any interest in a buy game, and a home and home makes zero sense for KU. Why give up the revenue from that home game? The programs have nothing in common except sharing a state. If they'd take a discount to play a buy game at AFH since travel is cheap then I'd consider it but again, the administration over there hasn't shown any interest in that since they cut off the series in the 90's. Takes two to tango and currently there's nobody on the dance floor.

I remember playing them in football , always enjoyed going t watch those games - -but I'm like everyone else - - no way am I giving Marsha and his Bottle of Boone's Farm Strawberry Hill and fricken game lmao. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@Kcmatt7 Indiana does the yearly Indiana/Butler/Notre Dame/Purdue thing, though not a tournament.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossroads_Classic ↗

Indiana and Purdue never play against each other because they play in the conference.
This would be great with KU/MU/WSU/KSU and similarly, KU and KSU wouldn't play against each other in it due to conference.

@BigBad said in WSU grudge:

@Kcmatt7 Indiana does the yearly Indiana/Butler/Notre Dame/Purdue thing, though not a tournament.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossroads_Classic ↗

Indiana and Purdue never play against each other because they play in the conference.
This would be great with KU/MU/WSU/KSU and similarly, KU and KSU wouldn't play against each other in it due to conference.

I think this would be very enjoyable.

The thing with the Crossroads Series is that all 4 programs are consistently top caliber programs and located within the same state and are all rivals. This KU/KSU/MU/WSU thing wouldn'ake much sense because MU isn't rivals with KSU or WSU. If Kansas had a 4th D1 program, you could do something like that at Intrust every year, but it doesn't make sense because not everyone is a rival.

The KU/WSU match up isn't a rivalry match up because most KU don't care about WSU. The hatred only flows one way that discussion. There wouldn't be much extra juice in AFH when WSU came in when was the last time KU played a non power conference school in a true road game that wasn't played for recruiting purposes? Was it Nevada about 15 years ago? I know we've played Temple in Philadelphia a couple of times, but those games were made for recruiting purposes.

KU/MU makes so much more sense because it is a true rivalry in that both sides hate each other. Sprint Center will be sold out both games, AFH will be at it's best the two time MU comes to Lawrence, and MU will have a packed house full of energy the two times KU makes the trip over there.

Leave K-State out of it. We play them 2-3 times a year already.

KU, WSU, MU and either "host" UMKC or bring Iowa down to represent the B1G. Iowegians love to go to a big city like KC.

That'd be a fun two day tournament.

@HighEliteMajor said in WSU grudge:

So we, KU ... you know, history, blue blood, top program ... worries about recruiting competition from WSU?

Yeah, cause you never know who might say something to convince a kid to be wary of KU or of Self. Anyone can plant seeds of doubt.

Like saying that Self spews misinformation and suggesting that what he says shouldn't be trusted.

@nuleafjhawk said in WSU grudge:

@HighEliteMajor So - I gather you're not the president of the Bill Self Fan Club?

Nope, not one bit. That ship sailed in October/2018 when he blatantly lied in a public statement. Bill Self is dishonest. He's dragged our program into this NCAA mess. His program. The buck stops with him. Oddly, many just give him a free pass. Some give him a free pass because they say "everyone did it but we just got caught" or that we were unfairly targeted. Obviously, if that's the defense (as silly as it is), it circles back to the dishonesty point. See the quote below.

"When recruiting prospective student athletes, my staff and I have not and do not offer improper inducements to them or their families to influence their college decisions nor are we aware of any third-party involvement to do so."

While I think he's the best coach our program has ever had, we have one national championship to show for it since he arrived in 2003. We've won one FF game since beating Memphis in 2008. Since winning that lone additional FF game in '12, we've been to one just one FF. Always with a top 5 roster. Until that changes, and with each passing year, I'm less enamored. Winning national championships is the only thing, on the court, that will change that for me at this point.

But on the honesty and integrity part, Self's done as far as I'm concerned.

I like seeing us play meaningful games where there is some kind of rivalry, any kind of rivalry.

Playing interstate "rivals" like Emporia State is a big joke and waste of time. Since when are we in charge of helping them out? What do we get out of those fluff games?

I like to see us play WSU because they give us a great taste of that "mid major" style game... something we have had problems with in March and embarrassed many times, sent packing.

I also like playing in the Champions Classic and anything where we play typical Top 5 teams, but this year, playing Duke in the first game of the year was plain stupid and meaningless.

Actually.... we get a lot less out of playing Mizzou every year than if we played the Shocks because the Shocks tend to be ranked higher and they present us with the mid major style.

The argument that WSU isn't good enough to play us is hogwash. Explain Emporia State.

@HighEliteMajor Interesting. I'm not Bill Self's cousin, next door neighbor or best friend. I've never met him - closest I've ever been is the couple of hundred feet from the bench while at a basketball game.

BUT - I've always considered him to be one of the more honest guys in coaching. About you and I - is there any chance that we both see & hear things in a different light? How do you know with such certainty that he (and his staff) know about the darker side of things? Maybe they just happen. Without his knowledge or consent. It's a distinct possibility. I've been at my company 23 years. It's a small company - about 30 employees. Stuff goes on around here ALL THE TIME that I don't know about until after the fact. And while I'm not the Head Coach, I've been here longer than any other employee and am included in much of the decision making around here.

I look at guys like (yep, going to name names....) Pitino, G.Marshall, Calipari - and I immediately think " They're pond scum ". I know that's an excellent attitude for someone who professes to be a Christian, but I'm a Christian human and i sometimes get an attitude.

Could it be that there's just something about Self's persona that doesn't vibe right with you? Maybe he's not dishonest. Maybe you just don't like the way he looks.

Anyway, there's about a 100% chance that I'm not going to change your mind, It just struck me funny as I think completely the opposite way about him.

@nuleafjhawk Understood. I think that has been a perception/belief of many. Maybe it's in comparison to others -- your "pond scum" reference. That's not the bar I'm referring to. And my opinion can change on this perhaps with time. But when I read the quote I cited, there is just no reconciling that with reality. The public statement was a big one. A really big one, for the entire nation to hear.

For folks to defend his honesty, they would have to state that his public quote was truthful. I have not heard anyone suggest that his statement was truthful. I'm not going to slobber over, or admire, a public liar -- one that does so as the head coach of my alma mater.

I was always a big defender of Bill Self's integrity. I mentioned that when the FBI stuff came out that they were targeting the "pristine" coach and prosecutors love knocking guys like that down. Maybe I'm too emotional on this. But I feel as if I was deceived.

I truly did not believe that our program engaged in this stuff. I believed that Bill Self was above that. I believed that he did it the right way. I believed in Bill Self's integrity. Then I learned the truth. I was admittedly naïve. Embarrassingly so. I mentioned that at the time. I then very much wanted Self to admit there were mistakes, be contrite, and actively work to change what was apparent. He took the opposite approach in his comments and issued a dishonest and deceptive public statement. And we got hit with a severe NOA. It's his program.

So, if Bill Self didn't know .. just covered his eyes and ears and hummed the star spangled banner while all this was going on .. TJ Gassnola texts and all .. that he really didn't know that Adidas was supplying cash .. you know .. when everyone else does .. and he knows everyone else does it .. doesn't that define lack of institutional control? It would seem to appear.

@HighEliteMajor If that's the way you feel, I totally respect that. Honestly, I'm not as informed about this (and many other things) as I should be. I tend to favor re-runs of "The Beverly Hillbillies" and "You Bet Your Life" (big Groucho fan here) over the news. I understand completely having faith and trust in someone and being (or feeling) betrayed. Since I haven't followed things too intently, my impression is that since he's still got a high profile job that he must be OK (?). Don't people lose their jobs for lying any more? I also publicly stated that if Self was indicted/convicted - whatever the legal term is of any wrong doing I would write him off completely. Has that happened? (I'm not being sarcastic, just asking).

I would tend to think that many impartial observers would study him and think that he's a hard working, decent, blue collar kind of guy (that makes several million bucks per year - lol). But if you're right and he is indeed a liar - i will be done with him as well.

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOF.

Did someone put a friggen Bat Signal somewhere in this thread. Only way to explain all of this virtue signaling going on...

@Kcmatt7 said in WSU grudge:

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOF.

Did someone put a friggen Bat Signal somewhere in this thread. Only way to explain all of this virtue signaling going on...

Lol, was just about to say something like that. If folks expect choir boys as elite head coaches I can only channel my southern, "bless your heart."

To a person, all highly successful college coaches are control freaks who would lie, cheat, or steal to win. Just go down the list: Saban, Dabo, K, Roy, Calipari, Self, Dean, Knight, etc. Like it or not, that's the price of sustaining success. All have obviously flaunted the rules and say they run a program "the right way."

@drgnslayr Maybe we could get WSU as an exhibition; they could take the place of Fort Hays or Emporia or Pitt State!!!!

@drgnslayr said in WSU grudge:

I like seeing us play meaningful games where there is some kind of rivalry, any kind of rivalry.

Playing interstate "rivals" like Emporia State is a big joke and waste of time. Since when are we in charge of helping them out? What do we get out of those fluff games?

I like to see us play WSU because they give us a great taste of that "mid major" style game... something we have had problems with in March and embarrassed many times, sent packing.

I also like playing in the Champions Classic and anything where we play typical Top 5 teams, but this year, playing Duke in the first game of the year was plain stupid and meaningless.

Actually.... we get a lot less out of playing Mizzou every year than if we played the Shocks because the Shocks tend to be ranked higher and they present us with the mid major style.

The argument that WSU isn't good enough to play us is hogwash. Explain Emporia State.

We get all the gate revenue + save the money forking out a big check to a mid-major to travel. Those two games are pretty profitable for KU. Plus those are just exhibitions. No reason to burn a non-con regular season game on WSU. They wouldn't take a buy game and there's no good reason to play a road game there when we could do a home and home with a much better team.

@Kcmatt7 I know - it's crazy in this day and age that ANYONE expects integrity and honesty from leadership. Or anyone else.

@FarmerJayhawk To a person, all highly successful college coaches are control freaks who would lie, cheat, or steal to win. Just go down the list: Saban, Dabo, K, Roy, Calipari, Self, Dean, Knight, etc. Like it or not, that’s the price of sustaining success. All have obviously flaunted the rules and say they run a program “the right way.”
I think I would have to agree with you on this point. Years ago if a school was penalized, I would guess the infraction was blatant, or over the top. Definitely don't agree with the idea that to keep up with everyone else, a coach needs to cheat, but how does this problem get stopped?

@COHawk said in WSU grudge:

@FarmerJayhawk To a person, all highly successful college coaches are control freaks who would lie, cheat, or steal to win. Just go down the list: Saban, Dabo, K, Roy, Calipari, Self, Dean, Knight, etc. Like it or not, that’s the price of sustaining success. All have obviously flaunted the rules and say they run a program “the right way.”
I think I would have to agree with you on this point. Years ago if a school was penalized, I would guess the infraction was blatant, or over the top. Definitely don't agree with the idea that to keep up with everyone else, a coach needs to cheat, but how does this problem get stopped?

It's been going since college sports was a thing, so it's just the water we swim in. Phog was dirty, Rupp was dirty, Wooden was all-time dirty. Bear Bryant was dirty. Bobby Bowden was dirty.

So I guess either ignore it or quit caring? I've done the latter. I've accepted all the top programs (and most aspiring top programs) are dirty and that's that. Doesn't really affect my attitude toward KU basketball or college sports more generally. Still plop down every Saturday during football season and watch from noon to PAC-12 after dark.

@nuleafjhawk said in WSU grudge:

@Kcmatt7 I know - it's crazy in this day and age that ANYONE expects integrity and honesty from leadership. Or anyone else.

I think integrity and honestly is extremely important. Full disclosure: I really don't know you that well on this board so my response was mostly to the other person in that conversation just because I know their political leaning...

And to explain further... I just think it's hysterical that some expect more integrity and honesty from the Head Coach of KU Basketball than, say, the POTUS, Attorney General, Medal of Freedom recipients, Senators, Judges, National Security Advisors, Secretaries of State, or any of our institutions that are supposed to be running this country in general.

The gymnastics that some put themselves through to justify supporting something that is so clearly against their own "morals" is even more hysterical. Knowing someone is going to punch their ballot in November in favor of someone who literally lies more than twice a day, but somehow still feel they can sit on their high horse and criticize Bill Self for saying one lie to protect his own ass in his 16 years at KU. It's a friggen parody! It is in the same ballpark of irony as Pope Innocent VIII having two bastard children. It is in the ballpark of irony as the first Chinese man who found gun powder and called it the "elixr of immortality." It is an utter joke.

Honesty and integrity are far more admirable things when they aren't accompanied by hypocrisy.

@Kcmatt7 Fair enough. To be honest (since we're on the subject...) I really enjoy finding out about people on this site. I mean, what makes us tick and not just "Rah Rah, we put the ball in the hoop a lot today". We're all different and it's interesting to me to find out WHY we're different.

I know that I lean towards innocence and naivete so it's good to get a little dose of reality periodically.

The idea that honesty and integrity are mocked by many is sickening.

But given the responses, I guess we're not putting Self up on a pedestal then, which is a bit of a change. He lies and cheats like the rest of them.

@Kcmatt7 @nuleafjhawk But what about the policies? That's what really matters, right? Honestly, this is where @HighEliteMajor is consistent. He stated he'd likely get over the dishonesty or start to if Self were winning titles. Ends justify the means as long as you have the right ends, I guess.

@HighEliteMajor said in WSU grudge:

But given the responses, I guess we’re not putting Self up on a pedestal then, which is a bit of a change. He lies and cheats like the rest of them.

D1 ball is really about cheating and lying. Just look at recruiting. You are telling one kid how great it would be for him to come to your program while you continue to recruit players right over him.

As fans, the best we can hope for is a coach who can use his words well and limit the harshness of the reality. I've always said that a major plus with Self has been his ability to handle his words well.

It is what it is.... my mentor in life, my old basketball coach I had going back to the 8th grade told me once that Jesus would make a horrible coach.

@benshawks08 said in WSU grudge:

@Kcmatt7 @nuleafjhawk But what about the policies? That's what really matters, right? Honestly, this is where @HighEliteMajor is consistent. He stated he'd likely get over the dishonesty or start to if Self were winning titles. Ends justify the means as long as you have the right ends, I guess.

Wonderful point.

Those currently virtue signaling literally just wrote that they wouldn't care about the cheating as long as they got what they wanted. So it isn't even about honesty and integrity. It really is just virtue signaling. Thank you for bringing this up.

The only person mocking honesty and integrity is the one saying they don't care about either virtue, providing they get what they want in return.

@FarmerJayhawk said in WSU grudge:

We get all the gate revenue + save the money forking out a big check to a mid-major to travel. Those two games are pretty profitable for KU. Plus those are just exhibitions. No reason to burn a non-con regular season game on WSU. They wouldn’t take a buy game and there’s no good reason to play a road game there when we could do a home and home with a much better team.

I focus more on the Xs and Os than counting beans. But I bet we give up a large amount of revenue currently lost on t-shrts and coffee mugs. And more than anything, it gives us another big game every year to put on a major sports television outlet. I know I tend to watch the UK/Louisville game every year regardless if one team is having a bad year. It seems like we are better off if we help programs in our geographic region. It gets pretty lonely being out in the middle of nowhere without other power teams nearby. I spent my morning helping a customer in North Carolina and she went on and on about all the great basketball in that state.

We are Kansas basketball... and I see us as ambassadors of the game. Seems kind of low that we intentionally don't help an instate program build up. I know I just want to watch quality basketball and I hope WSU builds their program because it gives me one more place to see good ball. I wish KSU would improve, too. And if they beat us now and then it just adds more excitement to the following games.

@drgnslayr They are welcome to come play us in Lawrence. But they won't.

As Farmer put it, there has to be two to tango and nobody is on the dance floor.

@Kcmatt7

We do shared game series with many schools lower than WSU. Playing in Wichita now and then can only help our recruiting visibility there, too. Cough cough... Perry Ellis!

@drgnslayr said in WSU grudge:

@Kcmatt7

We do shared game series with many schools lower than WSU. Playing in Wichita now and then can only help our recruiting visibility there, too. Cough cough... Perry Ellis!

I disagree with the entirety of this post.

@drgnslayr said in WSU grudge:

@FarmerJayhawk said in WSU grudge:

We get all the gate revenue + save the money forking out a big check to a mid-major to travel. Those two games are pretty profitable for KU. Plus those are just exhibitions. No reason to burn a non-con regular season game on WSU. They wouldn’t take a buy game and there’s no good reason to play a road game there when we could do a home and home with a much better team.

I focus more on the Xs and Os than counting beans. But I bet we give up a large amount of revenue currently lost on t-shrts and coffee mugs. And more than anything, it gives us another big game every year to put on a major sports television outlet. I know I tend to watch the UK/Louisville game every year regardless if one team is having a bad year. It seems like we are better off if we help programs in our geographic region. It gets pretty lonely being out in the middle of nowhere without other power teams nearby. I spent my morning helping a customer in North Carolina and she went on and on about all the great basketball in that state.

We are Kansas basketball... and I see us as ambassadors of the game. Seems kind of low that we intentionally don't help an instate program build up. I know I just want to watch quality basketball and I hope WSU builds their program because it gives me one more place to see good ball. I wish KSU would improve, too. And if they beat us now and then it just adds more excitement to the following games.

WSU would not be a big game. Would be like if UNC played Wilmington, which ended up on Flo Hoops. I live in the NC research triangle and you never hear anything about teams outside the ACC. The regional UNC's just don't register even though Roy plays home and homes with them on occasion.

KU can already get who they want most of the time in Kansas. There just aren't that many good players most years.

What do you disagree with? Just look at our current schedule. Stanford? Really? How big is that gate? Travel expenses? When was the last time we recruited a player in that area? Never, maybe?

@FarmerJayhawk

Come on, Wilmington? When was there last Final Four appearance?

WSU is a great basketball culture with tradition, too. Is it Kansas? Heck no. But if we have this game every year we help them build their program because Marsha hasn't done well the past couple of years. I'd like to see them become a constant top team... but I don't hate the Shocks, like others in here seem to. I respect Marsha's coaching ability even though he is one weirdo guy. He's a better coach than Shaka (one trick pony) Smart!

We have a game today anyone wanna talk about how we beat them Mountaineers a 2nd time?? It's been a while since we got a fair shake in that gym.
Was waiting for @wrwlumpy's game thread! My day is thrown off not seeing it

@BeddieKU23

It should be a defensive battle! Wouldn't surprise me to see a game in the 50s.

@drgnslayr said in WSU grudge:

@FarmerJayhawk

Come on, Wilmington? When was there last Final Four appearance?

Don't have one, but you brought up North Carolina and all the great basketball. Helps that we're all in the same conference except the regional UNC's and HBCU's. Other than the occasional Roy doing a former assistant a solid home and home we never play each other. Otherwise its all ACC competition and there's zero chance WSU ever sniffs the Big 12 while we're in it.

As far as west coast recruiting, Cassius Stanley.

@FarmerJayhawk

This topic always gets many of us battling. I hear what you are saying and totally respect your voice in here. Always have.

@drgnslayr said in WSU grudge:

@BeddieKU23

It should be a defensive battle! Wouldn't surprise me to see a game in the 50s.

1 and #2 defenses according to Kenpom.

Will Self try and play 2 bigs to match WVU? Have to win the rebounding war, we already know we are not winning the whistle tonight

@benshawks08 said in WSU grudge:

@Kcmatt7 @nuleafjhawk But what about the policies? That's what really matters, right? Honestly, this is where @HighEliteMajor is consistent. He stated he'd likely get over the dishonesty or start to if Self were winning titles. Ends justify the means as long as you have the right ends, I guess.

Actually, when I said, "Winning national championships is the only thing, on the court, that will change that for me at this point", that was referring to me be less enamored with him from a performance perspective. Not that if we won I'd forgive the dishonesty. Not at all.

I know that everyone else's perspective is more practical when it comes to the college game and the cesspool. As anyone who has read what I've posted knows, I'm for the NCAA tightening rules, being very strict, not trying to be other concepts. I support players making money outside of the NCAA, but when the commit to the NCAA, then play by those rules. I think it is the best business model going forward.

Really, with Self, it just boils down to the fact that he's no longer on a pedestal to me (character wise). He used to be. That's all. And the truth is, as the other posts indicate, NONE of these guys should be on a pedestal character wise. I just saw Self as being different.

I don't believe in "the ends justify the means" as an operating concept. It's actually a horrible way to approach life. But everything isn't black and white, particularly not CBB.

When I coached young men and women, I operated on strict code of honesty and integrity. I followed rules when others cheated. I tried my best to be a an excellent role model. There were times when I failed. But never once in being honest or acting with integrity.

Those were kids. Obviously a much different deal.

I agree @FarmerJayhawk, people have been cheating in some capacity in major sports for a century. All the way back to shoeless Joe and Rupp getting busted to the Patriots being busted repeatedly and the signal stealing rocking baseball right now. I’ve always felt that our players probably got a used car or a job for their folks. Mainly because I know people that played college athletics and got stuff even at a smaller scale. I personally don’t believe KU is giving guys the Zion treatment with houses, cars, jobs and bags of cash. Look at the recruiting classes, we ain’t the recruits that the UNCs, Dooks and UKs are getting. More than likely because we ain’t paying what Nike does.

!alt text ↗

@BeddieKU23 said in WSU grudge:

@drgnslayr said in WSU grudge:

@BeddieKU23

It should be a defensive battle! Wouldn't surprise me to see a game in the 50s.

1 and #2 defenses according to Kenpom.

Will Self try and play 2 bigs to match WVU? Have to win the rebounding war, we already know we are not winning the whistle tonight

Last night Espn had us at 1.5 point favorite and now it’s WVU by 2.

Calling Self a liar and a cheater is a bit extreme unless you are one of those people who always drives at or below the speed limit, etc. etc. and so on.

The game of basketball, and of America it seems, is to play the edges. There's the saying -- if you don't have a foul, you didn't play hard enough... People adapt to norms. The norms are ever adjusting... being pushed by those that are more assertive. I'm not saying it is right or wrong. It is what it is.

I guess what I am saying is that I don't see Self as a liar or a cheater in the context of the environment of college basketball. I might take it a step further to say that such a statement is either naive or calculated to provoke.

Self is a cheater for those that are still stuck in Pleasantville.

@bskeet "Calling Self a liar and a cheater is a bit extreme unless you are one of those people who always drives at or below the speed limit, etc. etc. and so on."

If you're driving AT the speed LIMIT, isn't that what you're supposed to do? See, there's a minimum and a maximum that you can LEGALLY drive. Some of us actually do that backwards, hillbilly stuff. I would drive much, much faster but that would compromise my texting/drinking/changing clothes in the car skills.

@HighEliteMajor Guess that was a misunderstanding of what you were saying on my part. My bad. Totally agree that "NONE of these guys should be on a pedestal character wise" and would take it a step further that we as a society in general should get rid of pedestals (metaphorically obviously, I'm not very tall...) all together. No one's character is unimpeachable (oops). Also want to point out you were the first one to bring up "black and white" so I wasn't the first tor bring race into the conversation for once! All fiction, no malice as someone I remember used to say!

@FarmerJayhawk said in WSU grudge:

@COHawk said in WSU grudge:

@FarmerJayhawk To a person, all highly successful college coaches are control freaks who would lie, cheat, or steal to win. Just go down the list: Saban, Dabo, K, Roy, Calipari, Self, Dean, Knight, etc. Like it or not, that’s the price of sustaining success. All have obviously flaunted the rules and say they run a program “the right way.”
I think I would have to agree with you on this point. Years ago if a school was penalized, I would guess the infraction was blatant, or over the top. Definitely don't agree with the idea that to keep up with everyone else, a coach needs to cheat, but how does this problem get stopped?

It's been going since college sports was a thing, so it's just the water we swim in. Phog was dirty, Rupp was dirty, Wooden was all-time dirty. Bear Bryant was dirty. Bobby Bowden was dirty.

So I guess either ignore it or quit caring? I've done the latter. I've accepted all the top programs (and most aspiring top programs) are dirty and that's that. Doesn't really affect my attitude toward KU basketball or college sports more generally. Still plop down every Saturday during football season and watch from noon to PAC-12 after dark.

me too Buddy - - - me too

@HighEliteMajor You make Bill Self's case by stating "It would highly energize our fan base." That fact doesn't matter because we already have a highly energetic fan base that sells out every game and travels all over the place to watch the Jayhawks play. I was in Maui for the three games there and KU must've held 80% of the tickets for each of the three games. I thought surely BYU, who has a campus on Oahu, would snatch up their fair share of tickets... nope. Jayhawk fans muscled their way in and bought them up, got on a plane, and showed up at the games.

Economically, there is no benefit to playing WSU. It's not going to create more donor funds or get existing donors to give more than they already are.

HCBS is doing such a good job of filling AFH and winning, that until that changes, he's right in saying that we don't benefit from playing WSU. If there was some recruiting benefit, maybe, but there just isn't.

@BShark said in WSU grudge:

Self is a cheater for those that are still stuck in Pleasantville.

Thanks Captain Obvious - -lmao

@nuleafjhawk "I know that I lean towards innocence and naïveté so it's good..."
I'm right there with you.

@drgnslayr Close ties with the head coach and we needed to even the score.

@nuleafjhawk said in WSU grudge:

If you’re driving AT the speed LIMIT, isn’t that what you’re supposed to do? See, there’s a minimum and a maximum that you can LEGALLY drive. Some of us actually do that backwards, hillbilly stuff. I would drive much, much faster but that would compromise my texting/drinking/changing clothes in the car skills.

Yes it is what we are supposed to do -- unless it causes problems with the flow of traffic or is otherwise unsafe.

The driver needs to take into account the environment.

I think this makes for a decent analogy:

If the speed limit is 55 and everyone is driving 65-70 and I drive 47, it would be legal but it would also be a hazard. Likewise, 55 in a 55 zone could be too fast in ice and fog, etc.. Some people drive faster than they should.. others drive slower.. No one gets hurt if we all drive about the same.

Police set up speed traps and pull multiple cars over when they want to make a point that everyone is driving too fast and they want to change the behavior of the community.

That's analogous to what the NCAA has done with a handful of schools.

They set up a speed trap as a signal to the coaching community to slow down. My problem with it is that they only seemed to snare the adidas schools, which is like a speed trap that only catches German cars.

Anyway..

If I drive 65 in a 55, and get snared in a speed trap with 5 or 6 other cars, I would find it a bit extreme if someone called me a criminal.

and that's why I wouldn't call Self a "liar and a cheater" in this situation. He was going 65 like most of the community. He got snared. But the snare was discriminate and selective.

@bskeet That's really very well said - i appreciate the thought and effort you put into it.

Having said that, it still gets my hackles up when I'm driving 75 and getting passed like I'm standing still - and getting flipped off and honked at for doing the speed limit. Why should I have to break the law (I'll get back to that) just because everybody else is doing it? Why don't they do what's right and slow down? As far as breaking the law goes - I'm not really St Nuleaf - I don't like to speed because I can literally watch my gas gauge go down. It's expensive and inefficient to speed. 75 sucks it down badly enough. The computer on my vehicle says at 75, i average about 30.3 mpg. If i take a back road and can go 60, that number goes up to about 37 mpg. That's the main reason I don't have the gas pedal mashed completely to the floor. When I was a young buck, I used to have a 70 Mustang Fastback and I spent a lot of time at 100+ mph. And gas was about 40-60 cents per gallon.

And I was cool. Now I'm cheap.

So to the complete inapplicability of the analogy. Folks do this stuff all the time. So, why criticize someone for murder or other lawlessness if I go 79 in a 75? Pure foolishness. It's the argument of the irrational moral equalizers.

Bill Self made the widely public proclamation on the his behalf, on behalf of our program, on behalf of our school -- for the entire nation to hear -- that was a lie. It's easy to say he's dishonest.

The fact that it was so public and made on behalf of our program increases its import to me. And leads to my viewpoint.

On the integrity part, I think that's much different. I get what many of you have said relating it to other coaches, programs, and the sport. My view is/was based some unrealistic expectations perhaps. I acknowledge that.

But I do expect honesty -- or at least not lying. Don't lie. Just don't say anything. Don't lie. It's a horrible message to all involved and certainly to the players that he's trying to be a role model for.

Instead, perhaps this statement related to improper benefits: "I have always tried to operate our program the right way. As a program, we do not offer any improper benefits. None of my coaches, nor I, have offered or provided improper benefits. I can assure you of that. The Adidas involvement and the role of shoe companies in general, create a much different dynamic for all schools involved. Obviously we're dealing with those issues related to our involvement. And I'm sure college basketball as a whole will address many of these issues. We want to operate our program in the right way."

I'm still believing that "our program" and "coaches" don't do it. But we know the shoecos do. This simple adjustment avoids blatantly lying.

But Bill Self chose to go a much different route. And that ain't going 79 in a 75.

This all rings hollow from a likely Trump supporter and known racist.

@BShark What does one's political leanings have to do with what that person expects from a basketball coach?

@BigBad said in WSU grudge:

@BShark What does one's political leanings have to do with what that person expects from a basketball coach?

If you condemn a basketball coach with this veracity, over one single "misleading" statement, wouldn't you think that same person would expect the POTUS to also operate with honesty and integrity?

If honesty and integrity are SOOOOOO important to you as a person, than you shouldn't morally be able to support someone who has lied or mislead the American public 15,000 times in three years.

Or is it actually not that important to your moral code? Is honesty only important sometimes? Is it an expectation or is it not? Why is one more worthy of condemning than the other?

"That's politics" is a pretty lame excuse for someone who claims to have such upstanding morals and character. And it's rather inconsistent. Dare I say, hypocritical... It is actually funny to think someone tries to pretend they have the moral conviction to be so upset about one lie and then is 100% lock to vote in a pathological liar into the most powerful position on Earth and they will sleep like a baby that same night.

There is no moral conviction here. It's virtue signaling at it's finest. This is like a Vegetarian who owns a slaughterhouse. A doctor who smokes. A quarterback who kneels for injustice but is endorsed by Nike. A Trump being pissed about a Biden getting a job through nepotism. An activist lawyer that's also being indicted for extortion.

I don't care which way you lean.

Just don't pretend to care about honesty and integrity when it is so clear that you are willing to abandon your "values" the second it benefits you.

@BigBad It sort of reminds me of a time back in the 80s when someone told me she was in Germany when the US bombed Libya in response to Libyan agents murdering the Army sergeant in Berlin. She talked about how ashamed she was to be an American when her German friends asked how we could do so a warlike thing.

I said it would be years before I was willing to listen to moral lessons in international relations from Germans.

The thing is, when someone gets all bent out of shape over one lie told by a coach but is willing to let literally hundreds go by his chosen leader, or waxes forever about the breakdown in family values in minority communities but actively advocates for a serial adulterer and accused sex offender to be the leader of the country, or expresses so much disgust over lack of respect in modern society while knowingly and admittedly trying to offend people with racial and sexual jokes, it really undermines the weight of their opinion.

It is fair to consider blatant hypocrisy when assessing an opinion.

Well I was gonna answer, but there is little point after those two. I will just say still supporting Trump at this point requires a lot of cognitive dissonance, or at least I would hope so because the alternative is even worse.

@BShark said in WSU grudge:

Self is a cheater for those that are still stuck in Pleasantville.

Oh well hell you wanna get technical every frickin school there is - cheats. -If the NCAA really wanted too they could nail EVERY FRICKEN SINGLE SCHOOL for some minor tedious Bullshit rule. - It's the NCAA for GOD'S sake - tha is just another reason the NCAA life expectancy is coming toa close quickly. - -These schools gonna break away from these idiots -hide and watch.

The NCAA has had a wood for KU for years cause we stood up to these idiots - - fight for what we thought was right with appeals and suck for kids instead of just bending over and grabbing the ankles and saying - - -YES PLEASE. i'm so sick and tired of the NCAA'S bullshit and far from alone on how people feel. - Their time is limited - -you think not ? - - -Watch

@BeddieKU23 said in WSU grudge:

@drgnslayr said in WSU grudge:

@BeddieKU23

It should be a defensive battle! Wouldn't surprise me to see a game in the 50s.

1 and #2 defenses according to Kenpom.

Will Self try and play 2 bigs to match WVU? Have to win the rebounding war, we already know we are not winning the whistle tonight

KU's Kenpom rating is slowly continuing to move upwards. Just passed 2019 Duke. Would have been ranked #2 in 2018, 2017, and 2016. #5 in 2015. #1 in 2014, #3 in 2013.

It'll be interesting to see where they finish if they win out the rest of the regular season.

@Kcmatt7 said in WSU grudge:

@BigBad said in WSU grudge:

@BShark What does one's political leanings have to do with what that person expects from a basketball coach?

If you condemn a basketball coach with this veracity, over one single "misleading" statement, wouldn't you think that same person would expect the POTUS to also operate with honesty and integrity?

If honesty and integrity are SOOOOOO important to you as a person, than you shouldn't morally be able to support someone who has lied or mislead the American public 15,000 times in three years.

Again I asked why a political opinion matters the same as an opinion on a basketball coach.

You're condemning hypocrisy while participating in the same thing just the opposite. You're condemning a "lying president" but poo-pooing a lying basketball coach.

I'll give you this.....Politics and college basketball are pretty damn similar, they both reek of corruption! I don't believe anyone who participates in either is clean.

@drgnslayr said in WSU grudge:

@BeddieKU23

It should be a defensive battle! Wouldn't surprise me to see a game in the 50s.

you wasn't far off my friend. ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@BigBad

OK, let's assume they're all crooks.

May the best crook win.

For those who remember their school days in debate... "truth" is defined as an absolute. Absolute is only applicable to mathematics.

We are all "liars." We all have told "untruths" in our lives because, basically, every statement we make lacks absolute truth. Language isn't built to accommodate absolute anything.

I'm making this extreme point because our tone is what counts here. Yes... Self, like all of us, has used language. Language doesn't deal with absolute truths. Therefore, Self has communicated "untruths." Do we take this to the extent of calling him a liar? This is about tone and how aggressively we want to label Self in the negative.

I'm on board for agreeing that college basketball is loaded with all kinds of untruth... exaggerations, misinformation, compromise, etc etc etc. Self is a part of the D1 system. He has chosen basketball coaching as his career. Did he do it because he desired to jump into a profession swimming in untruth? I don't think so. I think he loves basketball. He loves coaching basketball. And he loves guiding young people in the game of basketball and the game of life. That is the "tone" I apply to this thread.

Back to the speeding analogy, and a little injection of levity in this suddenly politically charged sports thread...

Regardless of actual speed, why is it that on the highway everybody going slower than me is a dumbass and everybody going faster than me is a crazy mthrfckr? ;-)

@drgnslayr Oh sure. Bring logic and sense to the conversation. Thanks a lot.

@StLJhawk LOL - Truth!

@BigBad said in WSU grudge:

@Kcmatt7 said in WSU grudge:

@BigBad said in WSU grudge:

@BShark What does one's political leanings have to do with what that person expects from a basketball coach?

If you condemn a basketball coach with this veracity, over one single "misleading" statement, wouldn't you think that same person would expect the POTUS to also operate with honesty and integrity?

If honesty and integrity are SOOOOOO important to you as a person, than you shouldn't morally be able to support someone who has lied or mislead the American public 15,000 times in three years.

Again I asked why a political opinion matters the same as an opinion on a basketball coach.

You're condemning hypocrisy while participating in the same thing just the opposite. You're condemning a "lying president" but poo-pooing a lying basketball coach.

I'll give you this.....Politics and college basketball are pretty damn similar, they both reek of corruption! I don't believe anyone who participates in either is clean.

I’m condemning someone feeling so righteous they are acting as if they are Jesus while throwing the first stone.

I’m very well aware that my expectations on honesty and integrity are fluid and dependent on certain conditions.

The difference is I’m not lecturing people on here about their values. I don’t sit on a high horse. I just don’t appreciate someone thinking they have moral convictions so much greater than others here when that’s so obviously not true.

And fwiw, I’d rather be the hypocrite who expects the leader of the free world to have more honesty and integrity than than a basketball coach for my favorite hobby than vice versa....

WSU is crying again, this time about mean ole KSU.

https://www.kansas.com/sports/college/wichita-state/article240416271.html ↗

@BShark said in WSU grudge:

WSU is crying again, this time about mean ole KSU.

https://www.kansas.com/sports/college/wichita-state/article240416271.html ↗

Dam why the hell don't they just give it a rest man.

@jayballer73 What else you going to do when you have a crappy team in a crappy town? (sorry to my Wichita Jayhawks out there.....)

They have to whine about something.

@nuleafjhawk said in WSU grudge:

@jayballer73 What else you going to do when you have a crappy team in a crappy town? (sorry to my Wichita Jayhawks out there.....)

They have to whine about something.

I actually love the City of Wichita. - -Lived there and on the out skirts for like 20 years. Then is there bitching even though it is K- State, they talk about how K-State was wanting to play them when WSU was in a rebuilding year , but now they wanna biotch when K-State obviously is in some rebuilding

@jayballer73 I don't like Wichita. When I'm there it feels like I'm just driving in a big strip mall.

It's the chain restaurant capital of the US.

@nuleafjhawk crappy town?? Well I guess that’s your opinion bud

@HawkChamp said in WSU grudge:

@nuleafjhawk crappy town?? Well I guess that’s your opinion bud

I loved Wichita, easy to get around in, and lots to do - -if you can't find anything to do in Wichita - - - then your just not looking. - -Lived there and the surrounding area in between 13-14 years. te ONLY reason I left was after my divorce moved back here to be closer to other family. - -I don't have any problem with it.

The only one thing that wasn't to good was even though I didn't have any encounters but one thing was you don't mess with Law enforcement there. - Lots of accounts of Police brutality kind of some shaddy things going on. - Not gospel cause I never had encounter but plenty of accusations.

Wichita has it's good points - - has it's bad , just like any other city in the USA.

@HawkChamp I guess you didn't read the part where i already apologized. It was just to emphasize how much i disliked WSU. Didn't mean anything by it.

@nuleafjhawk Any town that would allow Nola Fulston to be in charge of law should be burned to the ground.

@bskeet if you need a list of some fine dining spots, let me know. My son and his wife are wined and dined every thurs by dental reps. Also @drgnslayr could probably tell you some good places. I've been to some good, off the beaten path authentic Mexican places.

@nuleafjhawk the edit function is your friend in this case

@dylans ease up there chief. Some of us live there and love it. Don’t understand the vile hatred some of you have for Wichita.

@HawkChamp and hutch!

@HawkChamp That was edited. It’s fiercely personal and I’d fight anyone who wants to.

@dylans hmmm I’m sorry for your anger issues on the city as a whole. Hopefully it gets better for you :)

@HawkChamp Thank you, I'm familiar with the "edit" function. Also with the "Discard" function, as I have used both prolifically trying to respond to you and keep things civil. As far as "vile hatred" goes, you and I have a vastly different idea of what that means. I didn't say one time that I hated Wichita. It ain't my favorite place. That doesn't stop me from going there. In fact, we spent a fair amount of time and money in your fair city this past Saturday. My wife was shopping at Dillard's (while I was watching the KU game on my phone) and then we spent more money at the At Home Store, or whatever it's called.

After we shopped in Wichita for a good part of the morning and early afternoon, we headed south. When we came back in the evening, we were going through Wichita on 135 and when we came upon the "canal' that runs through town we both about threw up from the smell. One of the reasons I don't like Wichita.

BTW - I live in Salina. Feel free to say whatever you want about it. I probably won't disagree.

@nuleafjhawk I’m glad you know about it!!

@nuleafjhawk said in WSU grudge:

@HawkChamp I guess you didn't read the part where i already apologized. It was just to emphasize how much i disliked WSU. Didn't mean anything by it.

ya even though I really liked the City of Wichita for sure doesn't mean I have a love fest for Marsha and the gang. - - I remember Eddie and the group - However did kind of like the motto " MTXE " - - Mental Toughness Extra Effort. - -Couldn't stand his son Randy cocky little shit. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@HawkChamp said in WSU grudge:

@dylans ease up there chief. Some of us live there and love it. Don’t understand the vile hatred some of you have for Wichita.

It's Ok, I love Wichita the city it'self - -but I'm sure there is a town /city that everyone has a dis taste for - -for one reason or another. - -Like me there is no way I'd ever in Bigger Cities NY - - LA - - Dallas - refuse to live in those rat race - -another case where everyone is entitled to their own opinions/taste. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@HawkChamp LOL. OK, I throw in the towel.

I just have a problem with word vomit. Sometimes words just come out of my mouth with no input from my brain. I honestly don't mean to be rude, I guess it's just how I'm wired.

Take me with a grain or two of salt please.

@nuleafjhawk said in WSU grudge:

@HawkChamp Thank you, I'm familiar with the "edit" function. Also with the "Discard" function, as I have used both prolifically trying to respond to you and keep things civil. As far as "vile hatred" goes, you and I have a vastly different idea of what that means. I didn't say one time that I hated Wichita. It ain't my favorite place. That doesn't stop me from going there. In fact, we spent a fair amount of time and money in your fair city this past Saturday. My wife was shopping at Dillard's (while I was watching the KU game on my phone) and then we spent more money at the At Home Store, or whatever it's called.

After we shopped in Wichita for a good part of the morning and early afternoon, we headed south. When we came back in the evening, we were going through Wichita on 135 and when we came upon the "canal' that runs through town we both about threw up from the smell. One of the reasons I don't like Wichita.

BTW - I live in Salina. Feel free to say whatever you want about it. I probably won't disagree.

Ah the good old canal route. Can't say I miss that. My old baseball coach would give me a ride home from practice or games on occasion and always took that route and made us keep the windows down. He enjoyed making me and his son scream about that awful smell!

@nuleafjhawk @HawkChamp

Any time anyone feels like insulting somewhere, just feel free to substitute "South Carolina."

It is wonderfully cathartic, and no one on the board is likely to take it personally -- certainly not me!

@mayjay lol

It’s all personal preference to what city you like or dislike and also what part of the city you have been associated with. @Crimsonorblue22 lives in Hutchinson and likes it and thats good for her. I wouldn’t want someone stuck were they aren’t happy. I’ve several bad experiences in hutch, like finding drug syringes in a park and one of my best friends was held at gun for walking in on a drug deal at gas station bathroom there. I work with two guys that were born and raised there that claim it’s a crap hole. But I’d bet if you live in the right neighborhood, it’s not bad. Me personally I avoid it and have only been 1 or 2 times in the past 8 years or so. @nuleafjhawk I actually was born in Salina and lived there for several years as a kid. I don’t have a high opinion of the place if I’m honest. But its because I lived in the crappy side of town. Where Broadway and 9th come together was my neighborhood, a couple of the houses I lived in are boarded up now. I will always remember walking home in 5th grade and seeing the cops kick the door in on drug bust in the house beside us. The cop chewed my rear end for 15 minutes before I could tell him I lived right there and was just trying to get home. Wichita is a good town if you live in a good area, I had friends that went to WSU and that campus is in a bad part of town. They got their cars broken into several times and there was guns ringing most nights according to them. I personally prefer small town America where I probably know 90% people that live in my town and the crime rate is almost non existent. That being said there are some bad small towns that are nothing but a bunch of rednecks and meth heads. We are are entitled to our opinions and we could argue all day.

@mayjay Lol - your graciousness is much appreciated.

I've been in some of the worst parts of town in Wichita, KC and other places in Kansas. In no way does it compare to the worst parts of towns in just about any American city. That may not be the way to grade a place, unless you live in those neighborhoods. I've lived in many places and I feel good about living in Kansas again! I grew up here and life moves slower... great for raising kids. There is culture here, too, though you may have to search it out more, but it is here. People are friendly... maybe too friendly. I can't go to the grocery store without spending an hour or so chatting with people, sometimes strangers.

I lived in Europe for two decades and made many great friends. Many of those friends still come over to Kansas to visit. Some come every year. They love it over here!

Sometimes it is hard to appreciate something until you have it taken away. I know I am thankful I don't have to waste much time in traffic jams. It was common for me to suddenly get stuck in a 2 hour jam in Europe because of an accident. That happened constantly. And it can take an hour to find out where to park and when you do you might spend $100 a day to park it. Uncommon to have a garage on your home. Drive right up to the front door of a store? Ha... unlikely.

@mayjay I've never been to South Carolina, my preconceived notion is that it's a neat place. My daughter lives a little north of there - in Wilmington, NC. and loves it.

I wonder if Ol Roy is starting to think that Chapel Hill is kind of a dump? Or maybe Chapel Hill is starting to think that about him!

@HawkChamp

This should not have been an afterthought, but I wanted to tell you that I appreciate you calling me out and defending your city in a manner that didn't include cussing and yelling and name calling. I'll be the first to admit that I say stupid things sometimes. Tell me so. Say - hey nuleaf - that was stupid. ( I'm kind of talking to other posters here, because that's basically what you did)....I can deal with that. I appreciate you handling a dispute, or difference of opinion like an adult.

There's no sarcasm font here. Thank you.

@kjayhawks Yes, Broadway and 9th is probably not the premium real estate destination in town, unless you want to walk to the mall very quickly. As you and others have pointed out, there are really good and really bad neighborhoods in most towns.

Unless you live in Port Arthur, Tx - then it's all bad. (Lord, please don't let anyone here live in Port Arthur.....)

@nuleafjhawk said in WSU grudge:

@mayjay I've never been to South Carolina, my preconceived notion is that it's a neat place. My daughter lives a little north of there - in Wilmington, NC. and loves it.

I wonder if Ol Roy is starting to think that Chapel Hill is kind of a dump? Or maybe Chapel Hill is starting to think that about him!

Idk about Roy but Chapel Hill is fantastic. Cost of living is brutal but it's a really cool town. Picture Lawrence but the population of Manhattan.

@nuleafjhawk

Hey I live in Port Arthur!

Ha, just teasing. I did live in Houston for a few years and passed through it on the way to New Orleans now and then. Yea, unless you like marshy oily flat and stinky (largest oil refinery in the US there), it makes Wichita look like Honolulu.

@StLJhawk Man, you gave me a start there. I'm just glad I didn't say St Louis....

Ha! No, you totally called it on Port A. And while I enjoyed STL for over two decades, East St. Louis might give Port Arthur a run for its money.

But not even in the Lou anymore either. Last February, we moved to an hour outside LA. For a lifelong Midwesterner who hates winter, loves big water, big culture and oh yes, mountains, I’m kind of in heaven here. And the best part is I work from home so don’t have to fight the nasty nasty traffic!

@StLJhawk I lived in Houston as well - for about 9 years in the early 80's. I don't remember why we were in Port Arthur area, but for some reason I thought it would be a good idea to check it out. I was wrong. If memory serves me (and it probably doesn't) every window on every building was barred. Residential and Commercial. We went through town and got to the ocean and the first thing we saw was a giant wooden sign with every warning known to mankind printed on it.

" DANGER - Deadly Currents. Swim at your own risk. Look out for Alligators. Mosquitos carry Malaria. Watch for hypodermic syringes on beach"

OH Yes - as you mentioned, the refineries were a real treat as well.

We didn't even get out of the car. I got out of Port Arthur as fast as I could and don't have any plans on returning soon.

I find it better to express your distaste toward an abstract idea such as an entire city as opposed to the actual handful of horrid people that make the experience akin to visiting hades. I’m certainly not mad at anyone on here. Seems like a healthy way to vent to moi.

@StLJhawk You're fortunate to live somewhere that you really enjoy! All the places that I can think of - mainly St Barth's in the Caribbean - are slightly out of my pay grade.

Since you brought up E. St. Louis - for some reason that I'll never understand, my sister in law and her husband thought it was necessary to take us to a place called Crown Candy in St Louis last year. It was in a pretty funky part of town, but then we really got to take the tour after we left there. O. M. G. There are not many things in this world that really scare me - but East St Louis did. It's a bad place. Bad.

I saw a documentary about St Louis a while back. It said that the population was over 800,000 back in the 60's, but today it's just a little over 300,000. There are empty buildings everywhere. It's really kind of sad.

@jayballer73 said in WSU grudge:

@nuleafjhawk said in WSU grudge:

@HawkChamp I guess you didn't read the part where i already apologized. It was just to emphasize how much i disliked WSU. Didn't mean anything by it.

ya even though I really liked the City of Wichita for sure doesn't mean I have a love fest for Marsha and the gang. - - I remember Eddie and the group - However did kind of like the motto " MTXE " - - Mental Toughness Extra Effort. - -Couldn't stand his son Randy cocky little shit. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@jayballer73 I think the MTXE slogan is from the Gene Smithson era. He's Randy's dad. We used to run into Gene and his wife occasionally while out to dinner. Gene had horrible table manners! Eddie Fogler was only a WSU for 3 years and when he left, WSU went cheap and promoted an assistant coach, Mike Cohen, who couldn't pour liquid out of a boot with the instructions on the heal.

@bcjayhawk said in WSU grudge:

@jayballer73 said in WSU grudge:

@nuleafjhawk said in WSU grudge:

@HawkChamp I guess you didn't read the part where i already apologized. It was just to emphasize how much i disliked WSU. Didn't mean anything by it.

ya even though I really liked the City of Wichita for sure doesn't mean I have a love fest for Marsha and the gang. - - I remember Eddie and the group - However did kind of like the motto " MTXE " - - Mental Toughness Extra Effort. - -Couldn't stand his son Randy cocky little shit. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@jayballer73 I think the MTXE slogan is from the Gene Smithson era. He's Randy's dad. We used to run into Gene and his wife occasionally while out to dinner. Gene had horrible table manners! Eddie Fogler was only a WSU for 3 years and when he left, WSU went cheap and promoted an assistant coach, Mike Cohen, who couldn't pour liquid out of a boot with the instructions on the heal.

ya, you are 100 % correct - it was Gene - -dam my old timers kicken in again lol - - but still loved that motto. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@nuleafjhawk said in WSU grudge:

@kjayhawks Yes, Broadway and 9th is probably not the premium real estate destination in town, unless you want to walk to the mall very quickly. As you and others have pointed out, there are really good and really bad neighborhoods in most towns.

Unless you live in Port Arthur, Tx - then it's all bad. (Lord, please don't let anyone here live in Port Arthur.....)

I don't know Port Arthur, but the most depressing city I ever drove through was Bastrop, Louisiana. That said, it was in 1988, so maybe it's changed..

@bskeet Never been there, but now I'm curious.

@nuleafjhawk pretty much anything north of Crawford is questionable in Salina especially to the west lol.

@nuleafjhawk Crown Candy, lol. Yes rough part of town but the East side is like a post apocalypse war zone. That said the stats are misleading, St. Louis county has lots of nice parts, good chunks of it multi-millions nice. And while downtown is under 400k the metro area is pushing 3 million, which is pretty good for the Midwest.

But feel like I’ve won the lotto moving to SoCal, will be hard to get me out of here. Big Bear Ski resort is an hour north of me and the beach an hour west. Can be in Vegas or Mexico by lunch time.

@StLJhawk ok,you know where I live so stop with all the Paradise (literally! ) talk. Lol.