Greene from 3
Bwag
4841 posts
14 fouls called in 12 minutes of game time...wow
12 players have been on the floor
Poor shooting by all except at the FT line
We've played 11 already.
Getting a lot of bodies in...fouls coming on
Mickelson for 2 on th eturn aorund
@approxinfinity It may be wrecking my marriage...I keep coming back. What has kept @HighEliteMajor away from his always epic postgame analysis post (even after mundane games, his posts are epic). Saw a few posts on another thread.
Could it be the 3 OT length, having to slowly watch and analyze still has him wading through it? Or did his head explode like some of us and he can't reconcile that against an epic game/epic win?
Or after making his wife wait last week, she's banned or grounded him from the site.
Typically, whatever my wife cooks and it is always good!
Tomorrow though, probably be beef rib-eye steaks, marinated with what I call Malaysian style - oyster sauce, soy sauce, chili paste, garlic, and probably sundry other knicks and knacks. Think it's been marinating since last Sunday. Done on the grill...rain, shine, sleet or snow.
Drink...bourbon on the rocks or maybe a cocktail or two, dealers choice. I'm the dealer.
@justanotherfan thanks and appreciate the additional explication of the concept and the application to playing time and personnel.
It's facinating to me to start to look at the game not for just what you see happen, but for the things that you don't see...I've tried capture this with the concept of opportunity cost from economics. I've read Bastiat's essay "What is seen and what is not seen" and to me it has application to basketball where there is limited amount of playing time that can be utilized.
1.1
In the economic sphere an act, a habit, an institution, a law produces not only one effect, but a series of effects. Of these effects, the first alone is immediate; it appears simultaneously with its cause; it is seen. The other effects emerge only subsequently; they are not seen; we are fortunate if we foresee them.
1.2
There is only one difference between a bad economist and a good one: the bad economist confines himself to the visible effect; the good economist takes into account both the effect that can be seen and those effects that must be foreseen.
1.3
Yet this difference is tremendous; for it almost always happens that when the immediate consequence is favorable, the later consequences are disastrous, and vice versa. Whence it follows that the bad economist pursues a small present good that will be followed by a great evil to come, while the good economist pursues a great good to come, at the risk of a small present evil.
Put these comments into player personnel and playing time decisions. Interesting concepts to consider. In your explanation of Kyle Korver, he may not score lots because of the adjustment opponents make to him, but that opens up offense for his teammates. I think we see just the opposite occur when we play our less offensively talented folks in the post...it clogs up the game for others who could score more efficiently even when the O-challenged C gets some points.
Your comments about Bragg v Lucas are instructive.
Realize some assume that we wouldn't win without the play of the lesser talent in the short term putting the long term at risk (ie. #1 seeding). Others argue that the long term (NC) is at risk by not developing the higher ceiling players. Makes for lots of back and forth.
Again, thanks for the great posts!
@MoonwalkMafia nice take. I have re-watched a game or two this year for the first time too. It is interesting to see what various folks were doing or not doing leading to a result.
@DanR No Problem. Appreciate the challenge. I'm trying to figure it out, but really do enjoy reading everyone's pov. From what I've been learning on here over the last several years, I try to watch the games with a more critical eye, but am untrained. As I comment more now, I'm really still in training wheels.
@DanR Wasn't giving business advice...was thinking more in terms of distorted markets based on regulatory or tax incentives...
But your comment leads back to the results argument on the site...League or NC? I don't get as hung up on that personally. Though like everyone would like to see both.
Home versus Neutral site, Opponents with outstanding individual performance, results:
Home - OU - win by 3 in 3 OT's
Neutral - MSU - loss
Away - Game TBD - ???
Note: Tournament games in neutral sites.
What will our results be then? And why?
Have our Tech struggles dried up since Billy G is gone or have there been up and downs still with Tubbs at the helm?
Tech played ISU relatively tightly, though not enough to cause sweat.
@DanR It's the questions about opportunity cost. Believe me, I'm not making a statement here, I'm asking a question. Why does are OVERALL offensive officiency seem to lag when our lower ceiling players are in?
I may be wrong that it does, but the games where we've relied heavily on them have been less efficient offensive outputs from my untrained eye and I"m not an advanced stats guy either but enjoy the perspective that they bring. (JN quoted the 1.02 PPP as our worst performance in the last 7 games despite our 109 points and I realize weariness plays a role in that as game dragged on).
So it's a question! Do others underperform for reasons less obvious even when the inidividual performance is great of one of these players that generate so much fire and brimstone back and forth amongst us?
I would argue that in this game, JT's outstanding personal play was critical. And especially his defense.
However, if as was discussed on a thread about players "gravity" having a negative impact on overall flow of offense, in effect de-leveraging the offensive output of the more productive offensive players, that is not as easy to see and measure as the positive output of the single player.
Coach Self has in years past and maybe even this year, commented about the "ball moves better" or the offense flows better when such and such a player is in the game. I think back to the Brady Morningstar discussions on the site several years back. Playing the lower ceiling player in this instance from an individual performance perspective due to less tangible but positive effect on the whole.
Someday maybe I'll figure out where all the advanced stats are at and learn how to decipher them myself. I think the NBA has some of these that show overall impact of individual players on the whole when they are on the floor. Would love to understand that better. Instead, I ramble working from a shallow, shadow knowledge of these matters.
Meanwhile, who do we play Saturday and what will the strategy be? Rock Chalk!
@DanR Not blaming him at all. He played great. No doubt.
@DanR Opportunity costs are much harder to 1) see and 2) quantify (because you can't see them).
Belive in economics it's when you have distorted incentives on spending/investment, you can measure what occurred, but you can't as easily see nor measure what would have happened without the distortion.
@DoubleDD NBA is crazy. Frankly, I don't enjoy the NBA game much at all.
@DanR I know where the quote comes from, but am missing the implication...as many people have figured out on here, i can be a little dense. :-)
I'm waiting for @HighEliteMajor definitive analysis of this last game and @wrwlumpy post to introduce Saturday's game. I need to step away as getting a reputation for being negative. I have to admit, though generally a very positive person, I do get some enjoyment from snipe and complaining (usually other drivers) at times.
@DanR and what might have happened if we had a second pair of fresh legs in there too? Maybe no need for a 3rd OT.
Of course we won't know and never will in these what if scenario's! :-)
@wrwlumpy What is a telling line in this piece for discussion is Kansas made 4 field goals in the 7:19 that JT was in the game at start of 2nd half.
Jamari played incredible as is called out, but why did the overall team offense go flat?
@JayHawkFanToo No dunk the ball, get fouled, and get the extra point from the line...option?
The foul and two from the line is the better if truly only those options (but that's not reality) but this is dependent on shooting 2/2 from line.
Otherwise, realy world, get the sure 2 points with the dunk through contact and the option on the extra.
@JayHawkFanToo tough one...legs got pulled out from under him a little, not on purpose.
Great discussion and points by all and appreciate the tone. I'll register my vote for big words and the historical illustrations and reference to other disciplines. Thanks @MoonwalkMafia @ParisHawk.
I don't think we can sew up the conference championship, let alone National Championship, without seeing better production from our high ceiling players. I'm not sold on one strategy or another to get them there. But I worry that a loss of productivity from the team as a whole when we lean on the lower ceiling players has a large opportunity cost down the road.
@justanotherfan Outstanding ...love the concept of gravity. I've been trying to figure out what I was watching when LL is out at top of the key, wandering around to set picks that accomplish nothing most of the time. I don't notice it as much with JT, but did recognize it in one of the last 2 games.
I'll be watching this closer in the future, but it does explain the loss of productivity as we are left trying to create against a more condensed defense.
@brooksmd I can go there to a point, what I can't put my finger on is if that helps our offensive flow or production more. Personally, I think it does.
Lucas shouldn't have and wasn't apparently particularly worn out since his playing time mostly came in the last part of the game.
Where I'm not sure if if some spot substitutions for rest might have helped us at the other positions might have helped with our key folks overall productivity.
@DoubleDD Exactly. He reduce the C5 to C2 and the offense stalled from the rate at which we had been playing at 1.02 points per possesession, our lowest rate in 7 games (if I quote JN's stats correctly.
Landen Lucas was terrible in the first half, short minutes. He was better in the 2nd as OU got more tired, but like you, I think we payed a price on offense production thereby keeping the game closer than it needed to be.
Outcomes great. Loved seeing the players leave it all out there on the floor and they all did. Was probably the greatest regular season game. We won by 3. Could have easily gone the other way.
@brooksmd Certainly possible but only makes my point, we left some horses in the barn and potentially (!) made the game closer than it needed to be. That is my only point.
Certainly it's Self's team to win or lose and play it how he wants and thinks best. I'm 0-0 in my coaching.
@wissoxfan83 Thanks WI
@sfbahawk And not only NOT ESPN, but no one else either!
@Crimsonorblue22 Jamari played very strong.
@wrwlumpy Not at all. I appreciate the adjustments that have been made. I'm celebrating, really I am. I know I'm not a coach and wouldn't try to go X & O's with anyone on this site, let alone a Hall of Fame coach. I've never called Coach Self stupid - your word - not mine. I'm hoping we don't lose another game all year. I think we have the horses that we could dominate. And lastly, I appreciate the give and take on the site.
It's just observation and if one or two shots don't go for us, we'd be shaking our heads without a smile on our faces, and saying, "It was a great game though". Check out @jessenewell's Tweet: 🐦 View Tweet
Worst performance in last 7 games at a PPP look. That is what I saw with my eyes and what I meant by "stale".
Believe me, I'm enjoying the ride. I come here to read, learn, and post my observations. Arm chair QB like most of the rest of the sporting world does.
Will see if UK canpull this out at LSU. They've not been pretty the little bit I've been watching. Down to 5 from 10 or 12 at the moment
@sfbahawk The guy has one good eye still...not saying isn't knowledgeable but his head has been so far up Coach K's and Duke/Carolina's asses for the last 10 years, not sure what he sees at all anymore.
@BigBad me too. My daughter, who stayed up to watch doesn't like passionate discussion, wanted me to "calm down". My wife agreed but was also asking if we saw any personnel changes.
@jayballer54 The 50-50 first half of '88 title game was right there. We were supposed to get blown out of the gym and couldn't run with the OU horses that year.
@Crimsonorblue22 Yep. He goaltended on that play.
I was referencing the block against the backboard when he fell hard. I think his feet were bumped while extended.
@RockkChalkk AMEN
@sfbahawk Really, going to rely on what THOSE announcers had to say?
@wrwlumpy We hit shots, but seemed forced at time. I mean, our hold to the end of the period offense is ugly and frankly, usually ineffective lately.
109 points, yeah, but an extra 15 minutes of playing time to get there. I think Jesse Newell commented that this was one of our worst PPP games. That's what I mean by stale.
@Crimsonorblue22 may be deemed incidental contact that aggravated Traylor being in such a vulnerable position. I'd have to go back and watch again.
@truehawk93 My contention is that Self made it ugly by his rotation and not substituting.
I would sure like to know what Coach Self "saw" or "thought". Personally, I don't buy it. I think he choked and played it "safe" which actually put the game at more risk than if he'd kept all the horses pulling. Instead, he cut the "team" down and slowed our game down to the same "horse power" as our opponent.
While it was an incredible game, I personally, don't think it needed to go to 3 OT's. Self gambled that OU's horses would falter before ours did. Home court won it. (Not at all to diminish what the players did-it was incredible). Players made shots, but I can't give any credit to coaching. I thought our Offense scheme-wise became flat as 2nd half progressed.
@madmaxKU Jarmari was partly taken out down low...not saying it was dirty, but he was swept out if I recall correctly.
@justanotherfan I think our stale looking offense tends manifest when Landen is in. Maybe not as much with Traylor, but I do think there is a correlation.
Better basketball minds may differ.
@Crimsonorblue22 said:
@Bwag probably you guys don't want to hear this, but I wouldn't have subbed either. There's nobody on our bench I would have trusted. Great game, OU is a really seasoned ball club.
If we'd lost, same take?
There were some times we lost possessions due to being so tired. Granted they were tired too and gave us back some of those, but I think that kept the game closer than it may have needed to be.
@pa_grape pretty much shortened bench late to C2
My post game thoughts:
Bill Self likes to play with matches, not match-ups, but fire.
He has a deep team, they have a shallow team: Bill shortens his bench and rides the horses he has out there till they nearly collapse and die
He plays a 2-ball game late against a 3 point shooting juggernaut. (maybe counting on their tired legs)
Last year the 3 ball is golden for us and we get "fools gold". This year, two pg guard offense is tearing up the assist to TO ratio stats and he asks them to get a little wilder with the ball...and they do (at least for a half-ended up with 14 TO's so we did tighten it back up later in the game)
Also, I'm not sure if our Assistant Coaches have any balls to stand up to Self and talk some sense to him, or...what?
So Bill is a gambling man, not necessarily do-anything-to-win, but gamble in the way that an older brother teases a little brother to the point of total rage...stiff arming him to keep the windmill punches from connecting, hoping that little brother doesn't pick up something deadly and in rage, throw, shoot, or lauch a fatal missle at him.
Our offense got stale late and reverted to "I don't know what to call it" but we kept hitting some shots, and also seeing for the most part our back to the basket game get stuffed back in our faces and our drive to the hole against a set defense as well. But the players hit enough shots to win, enough rebounds to win.
Definitely take the win, excited, but like a coach looks for coachable points after a win as well as a loss, I'm interested what Coach takes away from his performance in this game.
@Crimsonorblue22 Glad you were there and didn't storm the court!