@jaybate 1.0 So do you think that Lyle is 1) ready to play D-1 point guard, and 2) going to displace senior Tharpe and sophomore Mason? Lyle's the only guy who is listed as a point guard left, but still more of a combo guy.
Interested in why you think PG is an "emergency" need? Solely based on size?
Have faith ... Mason has "it."
"It" has been on display this season in stretches. "It" will become more the the norm.
Have faith.
@drgnslayr I guess I'm just saying that if you have two very good 4s, a true 5 is not a necessity. I do prefer two excellent 4s vs. having a 5 like Withey or Aldrich. That's because I prefer a very fast paced attack. I like having one in the bag (bench) if needed. But while Withey was great offensively, he wasn't an aggressive rebounder and wasn't much of an offensive threat. I'd take a Darrell Arthur paired with TRob, for example, instead of Withey. And I liked our flexibility with Marcus/Markieff/TRob instead of Aldrich. Embiid, well, different sort of player. Turner might be, too. The tallest guy on the floor that can score is something to behold.
You cited the North Carolina game in 2008. In the title game vs. Memphis, Arthur and Jackson played a combined 64 minutes, while Kaun and Aldrich combined for 25 minutes. But to your point, you need to have a 5 type guy for match-ups, whether starting or off the bench. See Kaun vs. Davidson.
@drgnslayr Do you think the 4/5 distinction is of any importance? We won a national title in 2008 with two 4s starting ... Arthur and Jackson, and no real shot blocker? Kaun was off the bench as a pure 5. In 2011, I wouldn't characterize either Morris twin, or TRob as a 5. All really 4s. I just wouldn't worry about who is a 4 and who is a 5 in the post. As is, we'll start Ellis and Alexander -- both 4s (assuming Ellis is back and Embiid is gone).
If Turner comes in and starts with Ellis, we'll likely have a very unhappy camper in the Alexander, the #3 guy in the country. I can't believe that he comes off the bench, either. Don't get me wrong, I'd take it. But I'm quite sure Self told Alexander that Embiid was gone and he'd start. Can't imagine Alexander coming thinking he might be a backup.
Any flaws in that logic?
No way that Turner comes if either Embiid or Ellis stays. Either one. Both would have to turn pro. If not, Turner, a top 5 player, would risk not starting. Cannot fathom that. But I would love to have Turner. Count me in completely.
However, I want no part of Vaughn or Lyle. Please go elsewhere. I just want our current group of perimeter players to stay intact, understanding Wiggins is leaving. Even if Selden goes too, we have a group of perimeter players than I'd match up against any team in the country.
Tharpe, Mason, Selden, Greene, White, Frankamp and Oubre. All but Oubre with experience. And Oubre is top 10.
Awesome.
@AsadZ - First, I would say that there is zero chance that Ellis moves to the 3. If there was less of a chance than zero, I'd say that. Of course, Self could play big for stretches in certain games. But as for a move to the 3, no way.
On redshirts, it is pretty apparent that CF should have redshirted this season (unless part of the plan was to consider a redshirt next season). Redshirting next season, if he is the 6th perimeter guy or worse, is the best move for CF. He could then have three very productive seasons here.
Tharpe, Mason, Selden, Greene, Oubre -- that's five perimeter players. Heck, Self hasn't played more than four (consistently) for a number of seasons. The fifth guy gets scraps most of the time.
And we haven't even included White or CF in that discussion.
I really don't like the idea of any of our perimeter guys transferring. But the numbers don't lie.
If you're Andrew White (a top 50 player) even assuming Selden leaves, and at the end of the season you are below Brannen Greene in the pecking order, do you stay? Sure, you could redshirt. But if coach Self has regularly moved new recruits ahead of you (Wiggins, Greene, Selden), don't you think it would happen again? Oubre is a top 10 guy, many see as a OAD. And you only have two seasons of college basketball left.
From the evidence we have so far, it would appear that AW3 isn't the guy Self is looking for. The rest of this season could change that impression. But if it doesn't change, I think a White transfer is all but guaranteed.
@TheDrunkenJhawk I watched Mickelson at the scrimmage in October and he had an extremely flat jumper ... very little arc. Tough to get any sort of gauge on the guy. I would not project him in our rotation over Lucas until proven otherwise.
Really, 2015-16 might be the year where our depth players in the post take center stage. Traylor and Mickelson will be seniors, Lucas a junior. Ellis likely gone after his third season, and Alexander likely gone.
Self will still recruit the OADs. Zimmerman? If we land one freshman starter, then all three would presumably be in a four man rotation.
And I agree with @joeloveshawks -- we don't get Turner. Our only shot, I think, is if Ellis turns pro. If Turner waits until April to decide, then we have a shot. If not, Turner is risking not starting. A guy as highly ranked as he is won't risk that.
@jesse_newell - Here's what I had posted after the Toledo game Monday, so your item today has not gone unnoticed. It's really pretty glaring to me:
Keeping a little with jb's theme here -- our starting 1 and 2 guards, Tharpe and Selden -- have combined for a whopping 12 steals this entire season. Yikes. Mason has 9 by himself in less minutes. Team leader in steals is .. drum roll please .. Joel Embiid. Talk about the world upside down.
I am becoming increasingly concerned with our inability to turn the ball over out front -- and an inability to disrupt (sticking with that terminology). We seem just seem to lack aggressiveness out front with Tharpe and Selden. Could it be the new rules? I don't know.
But watching the way the game was officiated tonight, it was pretty much just like last season. It was like night and day compared to games earlier this season.
One thing that is pretty apparent -- we aren't aggressively denying the wing. I seem to recall Robinson, Chalmers, and Rush, for example, making it very difficult on opponents trying to simply initiate their offenses. If there was one item in particular I would point to, it's our lack of denying the ball. denying the ball is the core of an aggressive man to man defense, in my opinion. We just aren't doing that.
Of course, strong denial of the ball creates the backdoor opening. With a younger team, perhaps we don't deny as much because our help defense and rotation is not as reliable. Would be interesting to know if coach Self has steered guys away from strongly denying the ball in favor of being a bit more conservative. Thus leading to fewer steals.
.
@wrwlumpy, @VailHawk, and @approxinfinity: Thanks for the kind comments above.
And @jaybate, @KirkIsMyHinrich, and @lulufulu85 I do see a lot of barriers to winning the title -- but this was "positivity" looking toward 2014.
Post-game analysis of Kansas basketball inevitably focuses on the negative. It’s who we are. We expect perfection. We expect a national championship. As one that engages in this discussion regularly, I can tell you that our collective hearts are in the right place. We just want our team to peak at the right time.
But many times, it’s easy to lose sight of what we do have. This isn’t Thanksgiving … it’s the New Year’s holiday. But as we head into 2014, our focus should be on exactly what we have as Kansas basketball fans this season. We have a team that can win a national title.
This season, our coach has constructed yet another team that can win the national title. They are players that he chose. The National Championship game is just a little over three months away.
Why will we win the national championship?
Joel Embiid: To begin the season, I suggested in October that he was the most important element in our assent as a team. I took Rick Pitino’s comments seriously when he said that KU could have the top two picks in the NBA draft. I also took very seriously the footwork, ball handling, shooting touch, and skill level that Embiid displayed on any video that could be observed. There is not another player in the country that can match up to him. And between now and the start of the NCAA tourney, his education on the court will improved exponentially.
Andrew Wiggins: This is why we recruited him. To be our Carmelo Anthony. There have been flashes. What we have begun to see is a guy that is becoming more comfortable attacking; we see a guy that has a killer step back; we see guy that is starting to finish. The finish, much like Perry Ellis’ transformation, will define his progress. And his ship is going in the right direction. As Wiggins plays in more hostile environments, experiences more pressure, he’ll be more ready to take over. We have a guy that can take over a game. That’s a good check mark to have.
Perry Ellis: We began to see the real Perry Ellis near the end of last season. As his minutes accrued, so did his confidence. He is a nice compliment to Embiid, and is pure scorer in the post. We can see him becoming confident from three point range. When the match-up is right, Ellis will punish a team like no other player on our team. He can go left and right with an array of moves. We talk about freshmen improving – so will Ellis.
Frank Mason: Surprised is an understatement. Some fool started referring to him last spring as “no rank Frank.” Can you believe that? That same fool would rather have had Cat Barber, or Demetrius Jackson. Anyway, Mason has been the biggest surprise. He handles the ball spectacularly. His attitude and fearless approach to the game will pay dividends in March. He won the game against Duke. He will win us a game when we need it.
Roster Depth: We see that other teams have lost big time players – Chane Behanan, Mitch McGary, Michael Cobbins. This team could lose any player on this team and still compete for a title. Perry Ellis might be the only piece that would be difficult to replace. But our roster depth is unmatched. Further, if NCAA refs want to call games tight, we’ll be ready.
Upside: Our roster has more upside than any other roster in the country. Kentucky, of course, could make the same claim. But if you compare sophomore starters – Ellis vs. Cauley-Stein, Ellis is the superior player. He’s tougher, smarter, and has more heart. He didn’t coast through his high school career. But if we are in a discussion with only Kentucky as far a potential upside, that’s a pretty lofty perch. Other teams will improve, but our potential for improvement is unmatched.
Flexibility: What happens come tournament time? Teams change things up. Teams play small, teams play big. We have that flexibility. Depending upon the development of our bench options, we can put together some lineups with pretty diverse skill sets that can match anything anyone would throw at us. And we can change things up as needed.
Tested Under Fire: KU has played the best schedule in the country. By the time we get to the NCAA tourney, we will have played in every possible situation. Some may debate the value of a tough schedule with a young team. But the fact is, we will not be awed or surprised by anything. With a young team, that is invaluable. It will help permit our talent to show through. There is no untouchable team. We will be the most tested.
Manifest Destiny: This school, this program, this coach, this fan base will win another national title very soon. It is destiny. Each year that goes by, it becomes more likely that the next season is the next title. We are arrogant, we believe we are superior, we expect win, we will win. It’s what we do. We are entitled, by birth or by acclimation, Kansas basketball fans are entitled. James Naismith, Phog Allen, et. al, made it such. And in the dead of winter, school out of session, we pack Allen Fieldhouse last night against Toledo as if it was the most important game of the season (see photo from my seats last night). Nowhere else compares.
Coach Self: Winning is what KU does, but it is what coach Self demands. He’s done it all. He knows how to get a national title. If you could pick one college coach, the total package, who would it be? Right, coach Self. We love to dissect his rationale, analyze his recruiting, suggest tweaks and strategy, and second guess his decisions. But if we had to have one guy making the decisions, we’d choose him. So we are quite lucky in that regard. Coach Self will put this team in a position to win a title. We will trust in Self, once more.
@drgnslayr I think you make a great point on Greene needing to distinguish himself and him not doing anything exceptional. And man, if KY was our first post guy off the bench, that would be a perfect match for this team right now.
Have a good new year, slayr, always enjoy the discussion.
@drgnslayr @jaybate and @wrwlumpy - I have really tried to watch Greene on defense. He is generally not getting lost, he's sticking with his man, he appears to be sliding properly to help, he has fought over screens. Better evidence of his sufficient defense in my mind is that Self played him for 14 minutes and 16 minutes in two straight games. If he was that deficient on the defensive end, that PT would have never happened. I really tried to pay attention to him and then rewatched his playing time. I'm not saying he's an outstanding defender. I'm saying that he is certainly serviceable. Respectfully, I think the "defense" stuff with Greene is a red-herring. But tell me what you are seeing, specifically, that I'm missing. I thought Greene was pretty darn good against UNM, in particular. Then compare him to our perimeter players now. Look at last night from our perimeter defenders. There is not an appreciable difference right now.
By comparison, Is anyone here really going to say that Selden is playing good defense? Serviceable, yes. @justanotherfan - You said he's as good as Releford? I just don't see anything near that right now. Does Selden's intensity and level of play deserve 29 minutes? Tharpe is ok on D, but Mason is better -- that's pretty obvious, right?
Greene got yanked vs. Georgetown because he made a turnover. Self went right to the bench (as usual) right after the turnover, as ball was coming down the court. And he never saw the court again. He had missed a three as well prior to the turnover.
And @wrwlumpy's comment on practice. Not sure if that's the case. Self has many times said that certain players are performing excellent in practice. The practice thing is the ever elusive cloud in the sky that we can always refer to in an effort to explain what makes no sense. I'm not saying though that it might not be practice related. Self had said that he and Greene had to get on the same page on a few things, so that may be part of it. Who knows. But Self clearly has him ahead of AW3 and CF at least. And they were on the same page enough for Self to play him those 30 minutes vs. Florida and UNM.
I'm not saying Greene is a cure-all. Not at all. I think most that read what I post know that. But it borderline crazy to me to tighten your rotation so much that you neglect other potential assets and options. Heck, AW3 or Frankamp might be the better option. Self appears to have put Greene ahead of those 3.
Folks were talking about a 10 man rotation. I said that was psycho. I suggested an 8+ rotation was more likely. Now I'm the psycho. We had a 6 man rotation last night with 3 guys getting sporadic, fill-in type minutes.
May I ask this question ... what happens last night if Tharpe doesn't have a hot shooting 3 point night? Say 1-5 instead of 4-5?
Last night was the situation, vs. an aggressive mid-major, that could certainly arise in the NCAA tourney. It is how Kansas loses to mid-majors. We just happened to have an answer from 3. When we lose in the NCAA tourney, we are 6-23 from 3 vs. UNI, and 2-21 from 3 vs. VCU. Look at the VCU boxscore. It is scary similar to last night as far as minutes played.
Do you want Self pulling Greene off the bench, sending him in with 2 minutes to go, saying "hit a few threes and pull us out of this"?
I would much rather have Greene in that situation if he has been a regular rotation member; having been in the fire at Ames, or Stillwater. Wouldn't you? Answer honestly -- no Self Kool-Aid.
@wrwlumpy said that "the forging of steel starts at practice." Yes -- starts.
But as General Patton said -- "pressure makes diamonds." Perhaps more appropriate. We are playing for March and we need to marshal our assets, and have them ready when needed. I've said this before -- before UNI, before VCU. The Michigan loss, that wasn't the same dynamic.
This heavily contracted rotation appears to me to be wildly short-sighted as it relates to the perimeter. But it isn't even conference play yet. My concern lies with Self's history in this regard. We can guess what's coming.
@KUSTEVE I have thought this way for a bit -- "Wiggins Rules". There are different rules for Andrew Wiggins. Wiggins commits two turnovers in our first three possessions vs. Georgetown, and a turnover in our second possession last night. As if this doesn't happen.
I say that, but watching last night, I feel the same way about Selden. How many times is he lackadaisical? Not coming to receive a pass? He has two turnovers and a foul in the first two minutes last night (though I thought one TO was Tharpe's fault .. I was at the game and only saw this stuff once/couldn't record it as I don't have TWC).
Wiggins plays 38 minutes, Selden 29 minutes.
But these guys don't fear getting yanked. They play through it. And at least Wiggins is performing.
@MoonwalkMafia - I am going to repost your first paragraph because it is brilliant. Perfect summary. Coach Self is a masterful coach. No doubt. And it's hard to argue with him on most things. But over the years, I have become convinced that misuse use of subs is his biggest weakness -- meaning, as well, that he does exactly what he did last night -- he latches on to his top 6 guys and believes they are the only ones that can perform. He puckers up, so to speak and can't move outside of his comfort zone until absolutely forced to do something different (your Ok. St. example with AW3 is a good one). He gets subs so gun shy that they can't get relaxed, and can't perform -- this effects shooters more than any other skill. "Got to let shooters shoot" as you say. And he refuses to play them enough minutes to become comfortable. I firmly believe that Self's mismanagement of subs has cost him at least one title (2011), while his masterful bench management got us to the final game in 2012 (when we had no business really getting that far -- best coaching job I've seen).
@jaybate has watched a lot of hoops. He accurately noted above the prime directive to subs under Self -- "do no harm." Tell me though, how does that inspire peak performance? It doesn't.
Do we lose last night if Wayne Selden was out with the flu and Brannen Greene or AW3 played all of his minutes? Of course not.
Here's the perfect summary from @MoonwalkMafia -
I'm really pulling for Brannen Greene to do something, anything so that he can make some progress and be beneficial to us later in the year. When he played last night, I don't know if I've ever seen a player more tentative. It seems clear that he's afraid of making a mistake because he'll get yanked as soon as he does. Clearly he's playing without confidence. To me, this is about as big of a mistake as Self can make. It reminds me of last year when the same thing happened with AWIII at the beginning of the season, and then when we needed him against Oklahoma St. down by 8, Self said, "alright kid, go in there and hit a couple threes." White did surprisingly well in that situation, but that's not the point. It helps that Selden and Tharpe shot fairly well, but Greene's strength--and White and CF for that matter--is shooting the ball. 3-4 consistent shooters is better than 1-1.5. Got to let shooters shoot.
I wonder ... this might be a good defensive team.
Maybe we're just playing the wrong defense?
How many wing passes have you seen denied? Not many. We don't cause turnovers. And the new rules have at least tempered the in your face mentality that was a staple of Self's defensive philosophy. I question whether this team will ever be above average defensively.
The best defense for this team, as it's structured, might be zone. In fact, I'm pretty confident that it is.
Self, though, is a system guy. He doesn't structure his system to fit his talent; he makes the talent run his system.
Ok, so if Self is going to stick with man, and this team won't be above average, what's left?
We have to outscore opponents, right? We have to put the ball in the hoop at a higher rate. That is the answer. Titles can be won that way.
But it brings me back to an old topic -- three point shooting. To win a title, and do it by outscoring teams (meaning not as defensive based), you have to shoot the three.
Keeping a little with jb's theme here -- our starting 1 and 2 guards, Tharpe and Selden -- have combined for a whopping 12 steals this entire season. Yikes. Mason has 9 by himself in less minutes. Team leader in steals is .. drum roll please .. Joel Embiid. Talk about the world upside down.
I am becoming increasingly concerned with our inability to turn the ball over out front -- and an inability to disrupt (sticking with that terminology). We seem just seem to lack aggressiveness out front with Tharpe and Selden. Both seem play without a lot of fire defensively.
Could it be the new rules? I don't know.
But watching the way the game was officiated tonight, it was pretty much just like last season. It was like night and day compared to games earlier this season.
@DinarHawk - I just don't think Villanova is that good. We played horribly and they ended up needing a last second shot to win. UK of course was tough to leave out -- I was tempted to have them at 9 or 10. But Louisville wasn't. They just dismissed Behanan from the team today.
@approxinfinity - UConn ... hmmm. Who do you think they are better than? Maybe ISU or UNC?
@JayHawkFanToo - Right, Ohio State is unproven right now. They barely beat a bad Notre Dame team. Interested to see how they play against MSU.
The team that I'm very impressed with is Florida.
In the year of the foul, Syracuse seems perfectly positioned with its 2-3 zone to be the superior defensive team on the floor every night.
Not super impressed with Arizona, Wisconsin, or Ohio State. Arizona having a bit higher bar as they are the current #1. They are very good.
Here's my top 10:
Syracuse
Florida
Michigan St.
Kansas
Oklahoma St.
Arizona
Duke
North Carolina
Wisconsin
Iowa St.
"I will fondle any beautiful woman of sound mind and body that asks me to do so in a polite, respectful and discreet manner, or that does so rudely, condescendingly and in a regional mall."
What can I say in response that could possibly do justice to this?
@JayHawkFanToo Hmmm .. I've actually been pretty impressed with Greene's defense over the last three games. Impressed meaning that it was surprisingly serviceable, not outstanding.
But he really seemed to work hard, fought over screens, didn't get lost, etc. Now, he did make a couple of mental errors, but they were errors of commission, so to speak, not omission. Meaning he was playing hard. Remember, too, that he made the poke-away steal vs. Florida where Wiggins had the layup (and didn't get the foul call). That bucket possibly changes the game. I'm not a Greene cheerleader, but I just see very little negative at this point. Remember how effective he played vs. Duke?
And on Mason, really, we weren't prepared as a team for the zone and zone press. We weren't ready as a team to take on Villanova and its press most obviously, and weren't ready for the intensity of Florida's masterful 1-3-1. The latter game was the game that I would have expected a loss anyway. Against both Villanova, Tharpe played worse than Mason. He only had 4 assists, 3 turnovers (Mason had just 1), and seemed like a rookie vs. the press (where one would assume that his leadership at point guard would have been what we needed). Mason shot too much vs. Villanova but man, he was trying to make something happen. Remember, Self praised Mason after the Villanova loss. He was the one that scored the go ahead layup before the last second three. Against Florida, Tharpe was plainly better than Mason, no doubt there.
Again, I attribute both players' failures vs. zone and zone press to lack of preparation more than anything.
Remember, too, that Mason was attacking the zone because Self wanted him to ... trying to attack the seams. Mason just wasn't successful. Using Tharpe primarily in those situations now is the right move. But this isn't rocket science. A guy like Mason will pick this up pretty quickly. As you note, Mason is better in man situations. Once Mason improves vs. the zone, he closes any perceived gap pretty quickly. And if he can generate a 35% three point shot, watch out.
Mason: The articles on Mason are interesting. I came into the season believing that Tharpe would clearly have the job, and that Mason, as the only other real ballhandler, would get 8-10 per game in that backup role only.
Then the Duke game happened.
I do think that Tharpe will be serviceable, if not pretty good. My opinion on Tharpe hasn't changed, but I haven't seen the 25% leap or improvement I was expecting. But I guess I just see Mason as better. The eye test, which I trust. And I do believe that our team has higher upside with Mason playing. I would not be surprised to see Mason back in the starting lineup this season.
Self made multiple positive comments about Mason. Those just don't disappear. Mason plays faster and more aggressive. He has a killer instinct on the court that I think this team, generally, is lacking.
A pass first point guard is my preference. I am still not sold on the fact that Tharpe's passing skills and his total package are better than Mason. But Tharpe may just "fit" better with this team, which is all that matters. We'll see.
Greene: One very interesting thing I heard Jesse Newell say on the radio yesterday -- he was curious as to whether Selden complemented Wiggins. That is, neither player is a shooter, so to speak. Both are slashers. Wouldn't a pure shooter at the 2 spot be a better compliment to Wiggins' slashing game? I definitely think so.
I'm not banging the drum to start Greene at the 2. But I do think that when you have players that do not compliment each other, it can make you less of a team, and your overall performance is not maximized. My opinion on certain players has evolved a bit. I am really seeing a lot to like in Brannen Greene.
Matt Tait, at kusports.com said this about Greene today: Speaking of killer instinct, is there a guy on the roster with more confidence than freshman sharpshooter Brannen Greene? I know he got off to a slow start and that he and Bill Self were not always on the same page in the beginning, but look at him now. He’s had season-highs in minutes played during two of KU’s last three games and appears to be turning the corner in terms of earning Self’s trust. Yet again, another good thing for this roster. I get the feeling that Greene is one of those guys who thinks he’s the best player in the gym no matter the gym. And I have no problem with him believing that.
Greene is vocal. He is intense. He is clearly a guy, if he is starting, who could be the leader Self is looking for.
Question for consideration: Would we be better with Brannen Greene starting at the 2 in place of Wayne Selden (thus presumably playing more minutes than Selden with Wiggins)?
Selden seems to handle the ball a bit better than Greene, though the difference is not sizeable. And we played last season with McLemore at the 2, who simply was not a ball handler. Self plainly sees Selden as a better overall player, and that is a obviously a big deal.
Anyway, Jesse's comment got me thinking a bit. I have continued to believe, and do believe, that we will not reach our maximum potential as a team if we don't have better three point shooting.
@drgnslayr You make very good points (as usual).
I would say that post feeds are based on angles. And the best angle, most of the time, is at the wing. Meaning appx. at or just below the free throw line extended. So I guess I wouldn't totally agree that it is more likely the 1 or 2. The 3 isn't camping in the corner, of course. With our system, the 1, 2, and 3 all rotate through the wing spots (appx. free throw line or a bit lower, extended).
Remember Brady? He was the post feeding machine from the 3. That was his bread and butter. I have never bought into the claims that this is some genetic predisposition -- I think it is definitely a skill that most high level players can learn. EJ was good at it.
Self has made it clear this season (as with every season) that playing through his post players is his preference. Thus a guy like Wiggins needs to be able to initiate that.
Heck, a guy like Wiggins could dish multiple assists with his driving ability and the attention he gets. But we do need him to score the ball first and foremost.
@globaljaybird - I see Greene, and I see Rush. But I think Greene is more naturally aggressive than Rush. I value Greene higher than any other perimeter player right now ... based on his longevity (likely 3 seasons at the least) and his skill set. So I am right there with you.
@bskeet I do appreciate the implied age discrepancy with jaybate. He is certainly much older and wiser ... and did I say older?
@approxinfinity - thanks for the fix. Much appreciated, as is your work on this site.
Regarding Jesse's article, very interesting to see that Wiggins has a sum total of 3 assists to Ellis and Embiid.
Against UNM, Brannen Greene had two assists feeding the post, and a third pass to the post that did not result in an assist (the post player caught it, made a move or two, and thus no assist was credited).
So in one 16 minutes stretch, Greene had two-thirds the post-feed assists that Wiggins had to Ellis and Embiid all season.
Below is a link to an article done by Jesse Newell last season (on December 11, 2012 vs. Deceember 28 this year). At that time, Ben McLemore had 5 post assists to Withey, and Releford had 6. Again, this season, Wiggins has just 3 to Ellis and Embiid combined.
Makes me wonder ... how important is feeding the post to Self?
That all being said, simply because Wiggins doesn't have assists doesn't mean he's not feeding the post, right? Like the Georgetown game, in the first couple of minutes, he got the ball inside nicely but there wasn't a score. Good passes don't always equate to assists. Probably just something to keep an eye on.
http://www2.ljworld.com/weblogs/newell_post/2012/dec/11/jeff-witheys-fascinating-two-point/ ↗
@approxinfinity - I use the google chrome version you noted (31.0.1650.63) on one computer and IE on the other. I tried the ctrl+F5 and it still did the same thing. If there's anything else I can do on my end, just let me know. Thanks.
@approxinfinity Hey .. I am not able to post on my computers. I am using my wife's right now. For some reason I can reply on this one. When I hit reply, it just puts "Dec 27 Headlines: Toledo still undefeated" in the blue banner at the bottom, but no box to reply in. Same thing on other threads. Any thoughts?
@wrwlumpy - Thanks for the video. I positively guarantee you that coming out of a timeout, we could have run something better than "let EJ make something happen" at the end of OT. Maybe even something that involved a screen or two. Unhealed scars. Time for the new year.
Merry Christmas to all the wise men of KU hoops!
Ah, should Perry play the 3?
That is not an uncommon plea.
Perry has an array of skills, there is a lot to see.
But repeat after me .. Perry is not a 3.
Never has been, never will be.
For you see, a 3 is not a 3 simply because you or me wants him to be.
All 4s want to be a 3, believing that such a move might set them free.
But a 3 is only a 3 when he can guard a 3, hit a 3, flow like a 3, and slash like a 3.
That, my friends, defines a 3 ... well, at least according to me.
Merry Christmas to all!
"Black on Track"
Not that I'm skeptical or anything, but perhaps we should wait to see a nice stretch of games from Tarik before we make such a proclamation. We're all crossing our fingers for that.
@jaybate 1.0 The idea of unforeseen consequences to rules adjustments covers a large gamut.
The biggest one now can be seen in the NFL where players, seeking to avoid helmet to helmet contact, now target knees. And players hate it.
One that will arise (so perhaps not entirely unforeseen) in MLB is if they ban homeplate collisions, then baserunners that slide into a catcher blocking the plate will be subject to very significant leg injuries. That will happen even if they require the catcher to give the runner access to the plate. And if they require the catcher to give the runner a corner of the plate, then we'll all be subjected to more "judgment of the umpire", and we know how that usually turns out.
On a more macro level, the unforeseen consequences of the new rules interpretations is really just a worse basketball experience for all involved. Their goal was to create a more free flowing game with more scoring. What they've created is a more disjointed game, with less flow, with wildly inconsistent calls related to legal guarding position, and outcomes even more governed by the whim of the officiating whistle. The increased scoring has come at the free throw line.
Very few like it. And even those that say they like it or that it is succeeding, like Jay Bilas, seem like little kids insisting that they like eating their brussel sprouts.
Not what was intended, I'm sure.
@Kip_McSmithers - Sorry to poke at an open wound there. Between that and our poor free throw shooting .. we're still in the game late? Ugh.
I had posted this last night on another thread, and jb had noted the "new trifecta" suggestion in reply. So I thought a re-post here might be worth it -
I decided to look at the numbers a bit. My impression during the first 11 games of this season is that three point shooting has been our Achilles' heel. Not just percentage, but also the low volume of threes. So I thought I’d go to the stats that matter, those of NCAA Champions, to see where this version of Jayhawks stack up as far as three point baskets per game.
I looked at the last 12 NCAA Champions. Not surprisingly, the 2013-14 Jayhawks are well behind national title pace. This year’s Jayhawks have made 4.90 three point shots per game (54 in 11 games).
In the last 12 seasons, no NCAA title winner has made less than 5.31 per game, which was the low (Syracuse in 2003). The rates per game – 2013 Louisville 5.75; 2012 Kentucky 5.61; 2011 UConn 5.87; 2010 Duke 7.58; 2009 North Carolina 6.94; 2008 Kansas 6.77; 2007 Florida 7.42; 2006 Florida 7.41; 2005 North Carolina 7.48; 2004 UConn 6.38; 2003 Syracuse 5.31; and 2002 Maryland 6.02.
The average three pointers made per game by NCAA title winners was 6.54 over that 12 year stretch. Again, KU is now at 4.90 three pointers made per game.
This stat isn't the definitive guide to winning a title. It's just a piece of the puzzle. But my impression has been that we don't have an excellent three point shooter logging regular minutes. We might have some decent ones, but no "excellent" shooters.
Our three point percentage is low, too, at 32.1%. No NCAA title winner has shot the three that poorly. But there are three that were in that ballpark. Louisville at 33.3% last season, UConn in 2010 shot 32.9%, and Syracuse was 34.4% in 2003.
But our threes made per game is significantly behind where we need to be. I have suggested that we can't shoot threes at our current rate and compete for a national championship. We have to be able to keep up with teams that may get hot for stretches. I'm just not sure that the shooters we are playing as part of the rotation can pick up the pace.
But I do see three on the bench that might fit the bill ... I'm just not sure any of the three are fit for Bill.
**As an aside, a completely startling stat -- Syracuse in 2003 had three shooters account for 527 of their 540 three point attempts. That is really amazing. The rest of the team shot a total of 13 threes.
I decided to look at the numbers a bit. My impression during the first 11 games of this season is that three point shooting has been our Achilles' heel. Not just percentage, but also the low volume of threes. So I thought I’d go to the stats that matter, those of NCAA Champions, to see where this version of Jayhawks stack up as far as three point baskets per game.
I looked at the last 12 NCAA Champions. Not surprisingly, the 2013-14 Jayhawks are well behind national title pace.
This year’s Jayhawks have made 4.90 three point shots per game (54 in 11 games).
In the last 12 seasons, no NCAA title winner has made less than 5.31 per game, which was the low (Syracuse in 2003). The rates per game – 2013 Louisville 5.75; 2012 Kentucky 5.61; 2011 UConn 5.87; 2010 Duke 7.58; 2009 North Carolina 6.94; 2008 Kansas 6.77; 2007 Florida 7.42; 2006 Florida 7.41; 2005 North Carolina 7.48; 2004 UConn 6.38; 2003 Syracuse 5.31; and 2002 Maryland 6.02.
The average three pointers made per game by NCAA title winners was 6.54 over that 12 year stretch. Again, KU is now at 4.90 three pointers made per game.
This stat isn't the definitive guide to winning a title. It's just a piece of the puzzle. But my impression has been that we don't have an excellent three point shooter logging regular minutes. We might have some decent ones, but no "excellent" shooters.
Our three point percentage is low, too, at 32.1%. No NCAA title winner has shot the three that poorly. But there are three that were in that ballpark. Louisville at 33.3% last season, UConn in 2010 shot 32.9%, and Syracuse was 34.4% in 2003.
But our threes made per game is significantly behind where we need to be. I have suggested that we can't shoot threes at our current rate and compete for a national championship. We have to be able to keep up with teams that may get hot for stretches. I'm just not sure that the shooters we are playing as part of the rotation can pick up the pace.
But I do see three on the bench that might fit the bill ... I'm just not sure any of the three are fit for Bill.
****As an aside, a completely startling stat -- Syracuse in 2003 had three shooters account for 527 of their 540 three point attempts. That is really amazing. The rest of the team shot a total of 13 threes.
Ok ... on to the substance of @jaybate's post.
And we knew it all along, didn't we? Self is a feed the post kind of coach. That's his m.o. His entire offensive scheme is built around the wing entry pass to the block.
I would ask, though, this perfect tension between inside and out -- where does the three point shot fit in all of this?
I would argue that you cannot effectively have this perfect tension if you can't shoot a competitively high percentage from three point range. The athletic freaks on the wings can't drive nearly as effectively if the defense is packed it, preferring to permit the three pointer.
Turnovers, intensity, rebounding .. forget it. Those will progress. All this team lacks right now is three point shooting. Add that, you have a national title contender, if not a national title favorite.
Well now I feel complete. Welcome jaybate. It seemed perhaps that you would be referenced in absentia forever.
@drgnslayr - Ah, you posted what we were all thinking. Hard to listen to today.
His participation in broadcasts anymore deteriorates to his thumbs up, or thumbs down, to every call that is made.
He was a major advocate of the new application of the rules, yet continues to refuse to acknowledge that the new application has been wildly inconsistent. His simple minded response is always, "well, they didn't foul."
And I would love to debate the guy on his villainizing of the NCAA. His arguments ignore that adults a free to make choices.
Compared to Stan Van Gundy, Bilas was pretty good today .. but that's an extremely low bar. It was difficult to listen to.
@drgnslayr - Did you see the set play Jesse highlighted? Where we screened against the back of the zone? Screening against the zone, and zone press, is something I would really like to see more of. On set plays it's "set." In our zone offense and against the zone press, don't really see it (thought vs. the press it's kind of hitting that strategic point to get a break-away, like against the interceptor on the a back end of the the diamond on the 1-2-1-1 press).
@justanotherfan - I saw where Jesse noted that Georgetown is very good against the transition. So your point on turnovers may be heightened if we can't get out and run.
@JayHawkFanToo - I hope not, regarding Mason. I tend to think that Mason will get his shot against the zone and will demonstrate that he's a very good choice. I just think his alleged struggles against the zone were more lack of practice prep. Heck, Tharpe looked back against the zone until the UNM game, right? And he still threw some lazy passes that just didn't get picked. My suspicion is that he'll do well. Interesting comments from Self when asked if he expected that Tharpe would remain the starter - “I would hope that that’s the case, but I don’t know. If somebody plays better then they’ll start,” Self said. “But I certainly think Naadir has got a great opportunity and a huge role to fill, if, in fact, he does what we think he’s capable of doing, and that’s leading us because we definitely need him to be the quarterback for us.” One part motivation, one part reality.
@joeloveshawks - I have never liked the youth excuse when there is talented youth. I do, however, think that coach Self has been a coach where youth does not thrive, so to speak. I think that's changing a little bit (although it may just be because it's the hand that he's dealt). One thing I am being more convinced of is that Self is the right coach for Wiggins. I didn't really have a strong opinion on that coming into the season. But as I watch, I'm sensing a good match there. On your Parker example, do you think Parker would be doing that at KU if he'd come here?
@KansasComet - Perhaps on the back end of that 3-2 zone?
Heading into the Georgetown game, here are a few things to watch:
First Big Off The Bench: Always looking for changes in the landscape. Tarik Black hasn't been what we'd hoped, but Self has not verbally indicated that any change in his potential use is in the offing. Black's minutes, though, do indicate such a change. This game may be a good indicator. Traylor has been serviceable, and has shown improvement. Landen Lucas has played productive minutes, and played more than both Traylor and Black last game. Self mentioned that Lucas matched up good with UNMs big bodies .. Georgetown has a big body, in Josh Smith. Self's use of bodies in the post may be shifting.
Brannen Greene: With Andrew White apparently out and very limited in practice, will Brannen Greene get rotation level minutes once again? Greene really has an opportunity to cement his spot as the 5th perimeter guy tomorrow, and then against Toledo on Dec. 30. Having a true three point sniper getting rotation level minutes is huge, going forward. If Self plays him 6 minutes, and maybe Frankamp 3 or 4, all progress may be lost in this regard. Big deal here, in my opinion.
Frank Mason: Mason was limited to 8 minutes of PT in the game against UNM. Big drop from the 30+ minutes he had been playing. Mason had been the one offensive player that seemed to take charge. Looking to see what kind of minutes Mason gets, and then, how he handles those minutes.
Zone Defense: If Georgetown comes out in a zone, or a zone press, how do we handle it? Against a pure zone, are we crisper? Do we rotate the ball; do attempt immediate entry passes (did you see Duke attack UCLA this way with the lob?); do we attack seams; do we screen against the zone, and can we drill the three? Against a press, do we have effective plans of attack that were lacking vs. Villanova and to some extent vs. Florida? Do we attack? Our early season issues vs. the zone (hopefully) will lead to more intense practice time against the zone, and our ability then to be more effective later in the season vs. zone, than maybe we otherwise would have been.
Do We Win: Simple, yes. But this is what matters. Can we effectively take care of business in AFH vs. a quality opponent. We don't know with this team yet. Is our home floor our property, or is this team lacking in that mentality? Not getting too greedy here, but one of those games where we jump out, lead by double digits the entire way, would be a very nice thing to see.
Would be greatly interested in everyone's view on important items heading into this game ... I can't stand the seven day break. It's about time for another game.
@wissoxfan83 Anything else about X that turned you on?
Let's not forget why coach Self started Mason in the first place. And let's not forget what Mason has brought to this team.
It is always interesting the ebb and flow of the narrative. A few weeks ago, Mason was the "bulldog" and the one player on this team that would take charge. He was the most impressive player. He was nails vs. Duke. He reminded Self of Chalmers -- Self's words.
The only thing that changed was our horrible performance against zone defenses. That had just as much to do with coaching and preparation (particularly in the Villanova and Florida games) as the performance by the players.
And though coach Self says that Tharpe is better vs. zone defense, which appears to be correct, it is important to remember that Tharpe wasn't a star in Atlantis, at Colorado, or at Florida vs. zones. And Tharpe is not a savior vs. the zone. I recall Tharpe passing the ball to Ellis in the corner, he was immediately trapped; Ellis then barely escaped and got the ball back to Tharpe, who then passed it right back to Ellis, where he was immediately trapped again. I recall Tharpe throwing lazy passes. I recall Tharpe dribbling directly into traps. He's a junior, Mason a freshman.
Tharpe played well on Saturday vs. UNM. Tharpe may be the better fit for this team in the long run -- emphasis on may.
But I don't want to lose sight of what Mason brought to the table, and what he will bring to the table. Mason was shaky with his three point shooting early, but he was 2 for 3 from three point range vs. Florida and seemed to be finding his range.
Mason's overall performance vs. Florida was very poor. No doubt. But we were not prepared to handle Florida's 1-3-1. "We", meaning the team. And Self is in charge of getting the team prepared. They were not ready. That's on Self. We can say "young team" or whatever, but this is Self's baby.
The team was flat out not prepared for the half-court 2-2-1 and 1-2-1-1 vs. Villanova. Heck, we came directly out of a timeout vs. Villanova and Selden dribbled right over half court into a trap (after we had just been trapped doing the same thing moments before). We didn't have guys flashing to the proper spots. We didn't attack at all. That's lack of preparation. Then we were probably worse a few games later vs. Florida's half court trap.
I guess my main points are that 1) Mason is still the player we thought he was -- let's not forget that with the sudden change in the narrative, 2) Tharpe didn't play appreciably better vs the zone than Mason did prior to UNM, and 3) our struggles vs. the zone have had as much to do with preparation and coaching, as with performance.
And is it too far fetched to think that as the season progresses, and Mason cleans up some of the concerns Self might have with his play, that Mason reassumes the starting role? I don't.
Just an unimportant detail, but Self never said that he expects a breakout from Black -- which implies a big game, or perhaps becoming productive. As the story says, Self only said Black will "have some moments" and expects him to "catch some breaks."
Here's what Jason King said when we signed him:
Jason King, ESPN.com: “Black is a unique player because he’s a senior who hasn’t come close to reaching his ceiling. He’s big and mean and physical — an intimidating figure who will make anyone’s All-Airport team. His arrival in Lawrence couldn’t come at a better time for a KU squad that is young and inexperienced in the paint. The lack of consistency (and, sometimes, effort) that kept Black from peaking at Memphis won’t fly with Bill Self. But if Self manages to get the best out of Black, he could end up being the country’s best offseason addition. In some ways I think Black is similar to former KU standout Jeff Graves, the x-factor in the Jayhawks’ run to the 2003 NCAA title game. Black doesn’t rebound quite as well as Graves, and it’s no secret he’s a poor free throw shooter. But he’s a smart player who runs the court extremely well and is a bully in the paint. This is just what the Jayhawks need. I see Black averaging 20-25 minutes per game as one of Kansas’ top three big men along with Perry Ellis and Joel Embiid.”
I expected the same thing. But when looking back over Black's career, I don't know why. Perhaps I (we) thought he'd just get better by being here. I (we) tend to do that sometimes.
@drgnslayr - ok, your quote: "Our NC from 2008 has largely been forgotten (nationally-speaking)... but our 9 in a row is active, and can't be denied or shoved in the shadows. It is the reason why I have Bill Self down as the best coach ever at Kansas!"
Question: Would you trade the 9 league championships .. all of them .. for one more national title? Say in 2010-11?
I would. No doubt.
Tell me this: How many league titles has coach K won? Or Izzo? Or Roy? Or Calhoun? Or Knight? How many national titles?
One thing is for certain, when you put a coach on the list and he hasn't won a national title, you know it.
What was a better season, 1988 or 2005, or 2006, or 2007?
Would you take the package deal of a 2013-14 title and a trip to the NIT the following season?
I would.
I admit, I wouldn't want to just get shut out of league titles. The 9 straight titles demonstrates dominance. But it demonstrates dominance in a generally inferior conference. We don't have any other generally top 15 programs in the Big 12.
The true measure is NCAA titles. Unfortunately, we've been at least one, maybe two, short of what we should have had in the last 25 years.
A question, another way, how empty would coach Self's coaching resume be without the 2008 title?
@nuleafjhawk - Yes .. I know your posts are with "no malice". I just wonder how hard the guys are on Black. I mean, do they walk by him in the hall, bump him, and yell "foul"? Or when he sneezes, do they say "foul, number two - five"? You know that's going on.
@Wishawk - Like you, I don't understand what White has done to slip back. Self complimented his off season. He looks great. Seemed to play well when given the chance. He was hitting threes early. I agree. I don't want White to transfer at all -- actually, I dread it. But do you think Oubre isn't a starter? He's OAD quality, apparently; though his dad said he's not an OAD. 2015 NBA mock has him going 4th. Ugh.
http://nbadraft.net/2015mock_draft ↗
New look rotation?
-Starters: Tharpe, Selden, Wiggins, Ellis, Embiid.
-Bench: Mason, Greene, Lucas, Traylor
@JayDocMD - Have to give you huge credit this past week. Has there been a more timely thread starter than the "leadership" post? On Lucas, Self mentioned that Lucas was good vs. the bulkier UNM players. I do wonder if Self was implying that Lucas might not fair as well against athleticism. I don't know. But I agree with you. Play Lucas/Traylor over Black right now.
@appoxinfinity - I would be nice to think Selden might stay. Probably too much time left in the season to burden our minds with that hope. But at least we can cross our fingers.
@Lulufulu85 - It was good to see UNC beat UK. UNC has beaten Michigan St., Louisville, and UK. Perhaps this would be a good year for us to avoid Roy in the NCAA tourney.
@ParisHawk - Do you see any potential lock-down defender? I don't. I agree with @Jesse_Newell, we should strongly consider shifting to zone for a chunk of each game. New rules, young team, long and athletic team. Adds up.
@nuleafjhawk - "I believe that Black should be the first guy off the bench. He should be up handing water and towels to the players that are not leading the nation in fouls to minutes ratio." Is there another player in the country that the "new rules" have impacted more directly than Tarick Black? Black seemed to maintain a pretty positive demeanor during the game.
Reputation: 1,052 | Posts: 71
This is a great day. Multiple reasons for such optimism.
Landen Lucas: Lucas has taken by force Tarik Black’s minutes. Lucas owns them. How can Self return them? Lucas, in his limited minutes, has looked better than Black has all season, except for a two minute stretch where Black scored five points vs. Wake Forest (after, of course, committing an early foul). Lucas was active, hit the boards, and played .. get this .. without fouling. Can’t help but be happy for such a great kid. Fraschilla enlightened us to an amazing stat: Black has more fouls than rebounds. Unbelievable. Black played 3 minutes vs. Florida and 2 minutes vs. New Mexico. Heck, Justin Wesley played as many minutes in the first half as Black tonight. Note to Self -- Lucas owns those minutes now.
Jamari Traylor: His game has taken a step up. He only played 9 minutes, but he continues to be effective. Traylor has fouling problems, for sure, but his game has improved. I really like his effort on the offensive end. Still, his rebound rates are lacking but we have reached a level of acceptability most of the time. And like Lucas, he's better than Black.
Joel Embiid: If you could have any center in the country on March 1, who would it be? Right, it would be Embiid. He was dominating. And 8-10 from the line. Self just needs to stop having Embiid hedge on ball screens. Let him get his five fouls where he should, in the paint. Protecting Embiid from foul trouble is job one. If I’m an opposing coach, the first thing on my chalkboard is that my guards would dribble at Embiid’s hip on all hedges. Heck, I’d screen with Embiid’s man to induce it early. We need to protect him. No more hedging. Please.
Perry Ellis: We found a way to get the ball to Ellis, and he was more aggressive. You could tell he was more aggressive. Did he read the comments by @drgnslayr? We need this effort consistently. We’re not always going to get 21 points, but we can get the same approach.
Brannen Greene: Ah, this is what I was hoping for. I’m going to sleep better at night. From three nice post entry passes, drilling a three, decent defense, great hustle, and overall solid play, we now have our 5th perimeter player. Now we wait for the 4 for 6 from three point range game. You reap what you sow. It’s coming.
Naadir Tharpe: This time last season he nearly got replaced by Adams. Self was clearly displeased. We heard from Frashilla that Self and Tharpe had some tough conversations over the past few weeks. Self was again displeased. This is why coach Self is so successful. Pushing the right buttons. Self talks about point guards pushing the ball, being aggressive and attacking. Tharpe didn’t do that. So I am unsure what Self really wants. We are not going to get out and run much with Tharpe at the point .. he doesn’t push the ball like Mason. But tonight was a great sign. I think we would all take the Tharpe we saw tonight.
Aside from the positives, there were conflicting reports on why Andrew White was sitting out. First that he had a hip pointer; the second that he was ill. We got a couple conflicting reports on Zach Peters last season when he sat, too. This is just seeing the planets aligning here. Greene seems to have seized the 5th perimeter spot role for now. With that, White literally has no role on the team at the moment. Kelly Oubre is coming in next season. Chances of Selden staying may be 50%. Self likes playing Tharpe and Mason together. And a kid only gets 4 years of basketball – this is White’s second. I’m not saying the kid is transferring. Just observing the situation. It is, and always has been, survival of the fittest.
My initial thought on this was that going back to Tharpe is mistake.
Prior to Atlantis, I suggested that Self had to make rotation decisions. My humble suggestions were: 1) start Embiid, 2) make Black the first big off the bench, 3) choose between Greene and White for the rotation, 4) sit Frankamp, and 5) start Mason over Tharpe if Self thought Mason made us the better team.
Going to Mason was a gutsy move by Self. When Mason took the job, one possibility we discussed was that Self was trying to motivate Tharpe. I didn't believe that. I still don't believe that now.
Self saw in Mason what we saw. He compared him to Chalmers, he said we played faster and more aggressively with Mason. Lots of praise. He said that Mason was our best performer as well.
That doesn't change with two games. Tharpe did not handle the pressure any better or worse than Mason, and Tharpe's a junior.
Though I was initially puzzled by the move to go back to Tharpe, I'm not as puzzled now. Self cited the need for Tharpe's leadership. Obviously, @JayDocMD was reading Self's mind in his leadership post earlier in the week. He pinpointed Tharpe as the only viable candidate for leadership. I had posted my thought that a leader has to play. He can't be on the bench. Tharpe could lead as the sixth man.
Perhaps Self sees the better opportunity for leadership from Tharpe as a starter, and the "starter" thing as secondary to the need for leadership. So even if Mason may warrant it, filling the leadership vacuum trumps other considerations.
As an aside, when Self hedged on the starting lineup Thursday, I thought that Self would start Tharpe over Selden. That seemed to fit.
If Tharpe does ramp it up, what an interesting comparison it will be to last season when Tharpe got the ultimatum from Self and almost lost his job to Adams. Tharpe turned a corner. Will be interesting to see if Tharpe turns another corner.
Finally, I still think that the most important thing Self can do right now is play Brannen Greene 12-15 minutes per game. Hopefully Tuesday was an indication that the "choice" on the 5th perimeter guy has been made. Keep him in the flow, show confidence in him, let him play through a mistake or two. Let him get the confidence to gun some threes. They may not all go in early, but we're playing for March, right?
@drgnslayr - Awesome thread.
I think you're exactly right. Perry's play is the main reason for his lack of production. There are other contributors to what we've seen, but Ellis is the main reason Ellis hasn't been at the top of his game.
Perry needs to work hard for position, demand the ball, handle the ball when he receives it, pass out of double teams, and take the ball to the hoop with authority. But even more than that, he can't play second fiddle to Wiggins. And he can't play second fiddle to Embiid. Ellis has to play like he's "the man."
I see that @VailHawk was wondering about participation on the thread -- 8 hours ago. Some of us do sleep from time to time!
@DanR - and just moments before, he poked the ball away for a steal, where Wiggins was fouled (no call). Could have been the hero. Hero to goat happens quickly.
Let me say that I am very puzzled/concerned with White's decline here. All of the preseason stuff sounded incredibly positive. Now, he's just not playing. I am very curious of the reason that Self is apparently not impressed. Could just be better guys in front of him.
But I'm with @BucknellJayhawk3 - Greene has significant upside, lots of positives ,etc. If that's Self's choice, fine. Go with it. I just alternatively feel bad for White.
@truehawk93 - I wouldn't read anything into Greene bringing the ball up; it was situational, no pressure, two guard leading into the chop play, that's all. Greene doesn't have the ball skills to play that spot, but he sure seems like he has the skill to play the 2.
@drgnslayr - really enjoyed your commentary on leadership above. Great stuff.
@JayDocMD - Are you saying we are leaderless? Maybe. I think if Greene gets regular PT, you might see him emerge. But that's a big "if."
Everyone -- the posts yesterday following the game were tremendous. Made me just want to be quiet for the day and take it in.
@JayDocMD - Great thread and post.
I have two pretty firm beliefs - 1) that as a player, you can't be a leader unless you're playing. Only exception might be the older professional player that is at the tail end of his career. 2) that a player can be a true leader unless he is verbal, meaning will talk, express himself, and direct others.
I see Black, Tharpe, and Greene as the only two thus far that seem to qualify under the second category.
@KoolKeithFreeze -- five measly posts? Need to hear from you more often ...
And @JayDocMD with the news on Embiid, and @RockChalkinTexas with the perfect logic on why it's tonight.
Let's cross our fingers that Black is a new man off the bench. That's what I'm most hopeful for.