🏀 KuBuckets Archive

@JayHawkFanToo Just a question here, then ... if Self recruited White and he's worthless to our program. And Self recruited Greene, and he is so flawed he can't play ... what does that say? Who overestimated what?

Does anyone really think that Andrew White or Brannen Greene would have been colossal failures if they would have manned the three spot last season? Two top 50 guys would have flopped? No way.

And do we think if either went to another program, that they wouldn't be able to function effectively in Big 12 play?

Really, it's all about opportunity. Self chose not to play White. Self chose the have Greene play limited minutes. He viewed Wiggins as a better option.

But that does not mean that either or both -- White or Greene -- wouldn't have blossomed into excellent players. Heck, White was doing great in the first 4 of 5 games and then found the bench (he only got 4 minutes vs. Duke).

@JayHawkFanToo Your point that the education itself doesn't mean much to the top guys is correct. It doesn't. But that's part of the consideration for the deal.

Ok, then, why play college ball? It's because college ball puts them in the best position to succeed in their profession. It's the best option.

Why don't these supposedly great players skip college?

It seems that everyone that demonizes the NCAA and colleges (I know you don't do this) wants these athletes to have their cake and eat it too. If they are so great, go play pro in Europe or China and make money, and sell their "likeness", get $25 for a signature, and sign shoe deals. Do it. Or if they want to work while in school, then skip basketball and work. It's a free country.

But interestingly, they don't. Interestingly, college does mean something. Interestingly, college does have much more value than the cost of the education. College hoops puts a player in the best position to earn a living. It is training. All they have to do is wait, just like most every college student.

Johnny Manziel's likeness and signature wouldn't be worth squat w/o Texas A&M. But Texas A&M would make milllions w/o Johnny Manziel.

@drgnslayr And thus you have identified why UK has a chance to implode. You cannot keep 10 high level guys happy. Cal has a huge challenge ahead of him. When the going gets tight, he's going to play his most trusted grouping. 3-4 guys will be on the short end of the stick.

@jaybate-1.0 Well, I think you're the wise one. The unfortunate path of college athletics will ruin what we love. Commentators whining about the money that players should get, a flippant attitude regarding the necessity of rules, the demonization of the NCAA, and blatant disregard for the true value of a college education and college experience -- we're not headed down the right path.

@JayHawkFanToo I think the highest probability is that Andrew White is starting. Is that crazy?

But the point of your question is whether Greene would be better than Oubre now, if he had played last season. I hedge. Maybe. Self saying last week that Greene needs to buy in on defense is the only reason I hedge. That bothers me. Otherwise, if Wiggins wasn't here, and Greene beat out White, I think he plays early over Oubre. Then it's a matter of how quickly Oubre progresses. But Oubre is an incredible talent. The realization of that talent with a freshman is why I don't like OADs. Freshmen have to develop. And it is a process.

The on court development Greene would have had, under fire, cannot be underestimated, which I think allows for a huge leap freshman to sophomore season. Self has said Greene is an NBA player. If so, I would have expected that leap. But being circular here, I don't think Oubre is here if Wiggins wasn't here -- as I think you suggested earlier when discussing recruiting.

All that said, Oubre looks pretty darn good to me. He looks like a terrific fit for Self. Can I be a bit dramatic here ... he could be the best fit at the 3 that Self has ever had. Kind of Travis Releford with a higher skill level. Problem is, all that may not be realized in just one season.

Which brings me back to the preference of skipping OADs. If Oubre stays two seasons, it's a completely different ballpark. I think he could be the best 3 we've had here since Pierce (yes, better than Rush). While that talent may be realized this season, I think it most certainly would in year two.

@drgnslayr Cliff does look good. Real good. Selden looked terrific. Personally, I think we have seen a transformation with this team. It's a much different team. I am 100% convinced that Self realized that Tharpe was the anti-Self ball guard, and thus his departure. Tough decisions. Not pretty. But it had to be done.

There seem to be two clear finesse players: Ellis and Frankamp. But I think we can handle that.

@jayhawkbychoice I think you've identified exactly what Self will do .. situationally, he'll sub in Graham for anyone of the three, but my guess is he'll sub Graham in for Oubre. That gives us our two ballhandler/playmaker look, and Selden stays. I bet that's the more predominant pattern, adjusted based on fouls or game flow.

Then the battle between CF and Greene. Who's next? Early in the season, that 5th perimeter guy may get more minutes and a 6th guy will get some minutes too. But I could see the next perimeter sub being CF in for Frank, Oubre for Selden -- Graham, CF, Oubre -- for a stretch.

Did everyone see the big quote from Self today:

“I thought they were OK. Frank has improved a lot. Devonté is a solid guy. They were fine. Conner is not really a point. He can play some point. He made some there late (in hitting three of five shots). All three bring something different to the table. All did fine.”

So, there you have it. He's right. CF is not a point guard. If Self chose 2 of the the 3 for the rotation, CF could not be a part of it. If he's not a PG, how could he be expected to play for stretches when the other PG is on the bench?

You can't have a guy like CF running the point for large stretches. He had just 15 assists in 225 minutes last season, an assist to minute played rate less than Selden and nearly half that of Mason. He's just too careful. His skill set is not that of a playmaker. Having a guy like that running point, while ok for small stretches, is like having a governor on your team -- you can't reach maximum overdrive.

CF is battling Brannen Greene for PT, and that 5th perimeter rotation spot. That's what I think right now.

@jayhawkbychoice I just got to watch it once, real speed, not rewind -- but yes, they seemed to be trying to run some things, that was pretty clear, but it was more scrimmage like. On Svi, I thought he kind of over-shot. Could have passed more. Selden looked great to me.

@KUSTEVE I saw that .. good guy. Hope he makes it.

Clint Bowen ends the uniform mess. This is great news. It provides a demonstration that Clint Bowen recognizes the importance of the little things with a losing team. The coach is in charge. The coach makes the decisions. The coach sets the tone. No more uniform voting. No more giggling over Crimson and Chrome uniforms. No more tweets about which uniforms KU is wearing, as if that fact means one damn thing. If it isn't about winning, it's a distraction.

The Hawks played respectable football this weekend. And Clint Bowen, I have a hunch, will prove that he deserves this job.

http://cjonline.com/sports/2014-10-11/ku-football-notebook-clint-bowen-changes-uniforms-alums-return-support-team ↗ ↗

Following Late Night, here's revised power rankings, just for fun. Thanks to a buddy of mine for DVRing:

(1) Selden - (Last week 2). Self made the comment about 4 starting spots being up for grabs, and that Selden just looked ok. Nicely played. Selden is the man.

(2) Ellis - (Last week 1). As some have commented, Ellis disappeared a bit. But I bet he disappears at parties, too. It's his personality. But he'll get his, and is our top offensive option.

(3) Alexander - (Last Week 7). Looked like the real deal. His physicality and tenacity, with high level skill, makes him a key to any title run. Ups and downs? Some Tarik Black games? Sure. But a perfect Self system player.

(4) Mason - (Last Week 3). Appears to have made the leap we have hoped. Small sample, but he passed well, under control. Four assists.

(5) Graham - (Last Week 4). Not flashy. Self compared to Miles. Maybe. Looks more athletic though. Appears to have a better shot (but Miles didn't shoot worth a darn 'till his senior year).

(6) Oubre - (Last Week 5) Could see him having some freshman moments, and could really see him staying two seasons. Looks like a tough player - a Self-ball buy. If he plays D, Greene could be in trouble.

(7) Traylor - (Last week 6). Nothing has happened to change his apparently rock solid role as first big off the bench.

(8) CF - (Last Week 8 ) - Looked fine, but doesn't have the appearance of a point guard to me. Deserves to play. But like many before him, "deserves" got nothin' to do with it. Competition does, and where he fits. I'm curious. I just can't see him beating out Mason for a PG spot. Graham is Self's golden boy. And we can't play 3 small guards in the rotation ... can we?

(9) Mickelson - (Last Week 11). Opportunity. Lucas has a stress fracture. Mickelson did look pretty good. Seemed to get to the boards well.

(10) Greene - (Last Week 9). I guess everyone noticed he didn't start the scrimmage. Svi got a starting spot over Greene. I saw that as major a slap in the face. Transfer watch is on. I was inclined to drop him below Svi, if Svi didn't look so bad.

(11) Lucas (Last Week 10) - Injury can decide battles. Mickelson played. Lucas didn't. The longer Lucas is out, the more "behind" he'll be, as Self will say.

(12) Svi (Last Week 12) - Didn't looks so whippy. Self is saying the right things. Putting out some nice comments. NBA stuff. Mentioned that he can't leave after this season because of age. I can't imagine much P.T., but groomed to start in 2015-16.

@jaybate-1.0 -- so, are you the "wise one?"

Winning a national title comes down to developing a team that has "it."

The only guy that could commit after this weekend is Dorsey, I think, but I don't expect it. Doesn't sound like any of these guys, other than Dorsey, are considering a quick commit.

Does anyone expect even one commit?

Also, I saw that the late add .. PG Marcus Lovett isn't coming after all. He was a guy that was off the radar and we learned last week that he was to visit this weekend.

@Crimsonorblue22 Here's just one view from a scout regarding Wiggins and really the (common) belief that our system is a tight one, the entire link is below. The first paragraph is related to system. That's not saying that a "system" approach is bad in trying to win games, though. It obviously isn't. But it undeniably can impact the things kids can do on the floor. It's a give and take.

Scout 3: In general, interesting kid. In fairness to him he played in a very restricted system at Kansas. All interchangeable parts with designated spots, a lot of structure. When he got the ball, there wasn’t a lot of room to create. He didn’t force things, dealt with it well, but sometimes it hurt his rep. Not anywhere near ready, mentally, to take things over, which is unfair to say at this stage. Game isn’t to the level of his athleticism. Humble, coachable, a positive kid, all good things.

Needs go-to moves. He doesn’t have them yet. He has a high dribble. This is normal for a kid his age. Even Kobe and T-Mac struggled out of high school with go-to moves.

He needs to add a whole bunch of other stuff to be the scorer people think he can be. He needs to forget shooting 3s. His shot isn’t great, but it isn’t broken. It’s not as bad as Kidd-Gilchrist where you say, “Where do we start?”

Great natural movement. An NBA coach can still play him right away because he can defend. He defends the wings in isolation, which is extremely valuable. Physically he can do this right away.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/ryen-russillos-nba-draft-confidential-real-scouts-on-wiggins-randle-embiid-and-parker/ ↗

@Crimsonorblue22 Ah, quite clever; and did I tell ya that Self didn't adjust vs. Stanford ....

@drgnslayr You said -- "All I said was he thwarted development of other players because Wiggins had to carry the load while the others were mostly spectators. When Wiggins had the ball, everyone stopped playing and started watching."

That is true.

Now, I wouldn't say that other guys were never open .. I know you're trying to be kind to Mr. Wiggins. But this scene played out all season. I recall folks saying that Self wanted him to drive and get fouled. Sure. But I'm sure Self didn't say, "Hey, Andrew, you know those guys that are open when you drive, the ones whose defenders collapse on you time and time again .. don't pass to them."

!photo (15).JPG ↗

@justanotherfan No one knows this, but I have this proprietary app for my phone that gives me a text alert anytime someone says "Embiid" and "Shepherd" in the same sentence.

So my question -- as you sit here on October 9, 2014, would you rather Embiid have signed with Kansas, or Karviar Shepherd? Keep in mind you know what happened in 2013-14. We've walked over that ground before, though. So no need for us to get into that example again.

But that leads to the real point of my post -- wouldn't it be nice to have Doral Moore? Wouldn't a nice developmental, highly ranked, 7-footer be a pretty nice add the recruiting class? It looked like Self tried, that he offered the kid. But how hard did he try? Would he simply have accepted the commitment, or was the kid told he might have to wait to see how others panned out? Alternatively, does a guy like Doral Moore want to commit to KU or Kentucky, with their recruiting menu? This is a nice example.

Doral Moore and Carlton Bragg. Sounds nice, right?

So my question -- as you sit here on October 9, 2014, would you rather have Stephen Zimmerman, or Doral Moore? I'm pondering that right now, as well.

@Crimsonorblue22 Nice response ..

@Crimsonorblue22 I don't think it's a slam of Wiggins at all. I really don't. I just think the items I stated, that you cited, are just facts. I'm curious as to what you dispute in my observation. Better in a another system, soft/finesse, didn't pass/create, or make others better.

Now, my speculation that we would have been better if Wiggins hadn't signed ... I certainly understand the counterpoint you, @Kip_McSmithers, @KUSTEVE and @JayHawkFanToo have offered. You just never know, though I think pure logic might be on your side.

@Crimsonorblue22 Don't be too sad about it. It's not a slam on Wiggins at all. I have nothing but good things to say about Wiggins, really, related to his short time here. And I've never really seen anyone slam him at all.

Wiggins was just a good player in the wrong system. He was soft, he was finesse, he did not create any shots or opportunities for others -- he made no one on the team better.

Sounds like a negative. It isn't. He was a freshman. He just needed more time to develop here. When he finally dove on the floor for the first time in February, that was a big deal. I bet he couldn't remember the last time he did that. But that's wasn't his game, an it's not going to be his game. He's not a Bill Self type player.

The "not making the other players better" thing is a large part of my thought process. Thus I think this discussion is based on a team game idea. It's kind of like in the movie "Independence Day", when word was getting passed that the US was planning a counterstrike. A Brit said, "It's about time, what are they going to do?"

A stud like Wiggins can cause others to feel and act as secondary options. To not be as assertive. To expect him to do something. That is team game poison. It sometimes isn't obvious. But it's invasive. Again, though, the fact that Wiggins didn't make other's better by passing or creating even when his drives were stopped, or he had opportunities, makes that even more stark in my mind.

I saw where @JayHawkFanToo suggested that without Wiggins we may not have gotten Oubre or Alexander. Maybe not. Let's say we don't get Oubre, since he was sold in part on taking Wiggins spot. So, we don't have Wiggins or Oubre.

So what?

Right now, we have Greene, White, and Svi -- or we play smaller as Self says he prefers and Selden is more at home in the three spot. And as I saw someone post, where would Greene and White and CF be now if Wiggins never showed up, as far as development?

Let's say we didn't win the conference title last season without Wiggins, and we got bounced in the first round (unlikely) instead of the second. How does anyone's life appreciably change? Well, no one has a "10 there, done that t-shirt."

Maybe if Wiggins isn't here, because of the alignment of the planets, Embiid doesn't hurt his knee, and thus doesn't hurt his back. Brannen Greene buys in on defense, becomes a leader, and is a solid 3 point shooter. Because we have some lineup flux, Self plays CF more, CF thus has less "pressure", and is a better shooter. Seeing that productivity, he benches Tharpe. Collectively, we gel, and win the NCAA title. Is that too far fetched?

I do agree that Wiggins brings a big name graduate that does love KU, as @KansasComet mentioned. And that is a nice "dividend." And he can only help recruiting (@JayHawkFanToo).

It's a purely speculative discussion as to whether we'd be better off. Tough to quantify. Impossible to prove or disprove.

But let me ask this, how do teams lose presumably more highly talented players, have those players replaced by lesser talented players, and then the group performs at a higher level than with those players?

Chemistry.

@KUSTEVE Thanks .. and the praise on Graham is flowing, isn't it? I

"Oubre and Svi are known as the two best shooters on the team. Everyday in practice, Oubre and Svi compete against each other in shooting drills to see who’s the better shooter."

Somewhere, Conner Frankamp is saying, "What about me, it isn't fair, I've had enough and I want my share ...." or something like that.

@drgnslayr -- "Might this team say to itself... 'hey, we've already had a good season!' Is that what we want these guys thinking as we enter into March play? Surely a big weight will be lifted from their shoulders when they win conference. Is that a good thing?"

No, it's not a good thing. It is the odd dynamic in which Kansas basketball lives. There is an odd fixation and pressure related to this streak is a distraction from the real goal.

But truthfully, I'm beginning to think that Self does not overemphasize the streak and winning conference.

The most recent example is what he said in his press conference about using the press. He made the point of saying that he wants a consistent style of play that can be successful in the "postseason." Subtle, yes. But telling in my opinion.

Self says that his in-season approach is based on establishing a style of play that he thinks is best suited to win in the postseason.

I think Self, like many coaches, take great pains to devalue publicly the importance of the tournament. Why? Because to emphasize would be to highlight their own failures. They don't want to be defined by a one and done tourney. So you hear most every coach steer clear of that hyper-focus on the tourney.

Self's comment might be a bit of an insight.

@globaljaybird Hmmm ... I would argue that it is pretty much indisputable that Self puts the reigns on shooters during the game. Much like a kid that steals from the cookie jar. He can steal, but he'll get an a** whoopin' for it (or "timeout" as the more modern alternative). There are penalties. Gun at your risk. You better make it.

Some guys get the green light, though. But Self is still very shot clock oriented, regardless. But a Wiggins will get more rope than CF did last season. Same shot, same point in shot clock, both miss ... Self claps and encourages Wiggins as if all is good, but with CF, he looks down the bench and grabs Mason to go in for him.

Your position in the pecking order is key to the freedom.

One might think that your freedom would be based on your shot making ability. But it doesn't appear that way.

He ain't changin'.

Expanding a bit on my post above, last season, I made the rather absurd suggestion that we might have been better last if we hadn't have signed Andrew Wiggins (I actually still believe that). The guy was a good defender, and our leading scorer. Joel Embiid was the consummate rim protector. The kind of defensive player that is commonly thought to be a necessary defensive asset.

But we will be a better team this season. How could that be?

We lose Tharpe. But was he really that bad? Defensively, yes. Offensively, the guy carried us in many games.

Still, we will be a better team this season.

Consider a potential starting lineup of Mason, Selden, Oubre, Ellis, and Traylor.

Could that be better than Tharpe, Selden, Wiggins, Ellis, and Embiid?

Yes, it will be. No farts in church here .. we aren't losin' 10, and we aren't getting bounced in the round of 32.

Why?

This is a team game, and many things go into that. With a system coach, the players' collective assimilation to the system is critical to success. Players that are opposed in effort (Tharpe), deed (Ellis) or spirit (Wiggins) to the core tenants of the system can destroy the final product in a team sport like basketball.

Self was trying to get a show horse to pull a plow.

And Embiid's awesomeness masked the underlying problems with this team last season. My opinion is that Embiid was the only thing keeping this team afloat much of the time. He was the key to last season's team.

Now, that collective group, I think, could have been much more successful playing a different system. I beat that to death. But different systems don't matter. Self ain't changin' (or adjusting much for that matter). The press conference made that pretty clear.

If Self does anything, I just want him to recruit and play the dudes that work in his system. If a guy doesn't not appear to be a guy that fits your system, then pass on him ... even if he's the #1 player.

The team that personifies guys that fit his system was 2012 - TT at point (second half of season), EJ at the 2, Releford on the wing, and TRob and Withey down low. All fit his system. That led to amazing results from an undermanned team (from a depth perspective).

This team has a "chemistry" feel to me.

@joeloveshawks Remember, heading into last season we had less scoring coming back .. just Tharpe, Traylor and Ellis. No starters returned.

We are in a much better position this time around. Here's why - This team will be more of a Bill Self team. Last season, we had three finesse players in the starting lineup (Tharpe, Wiggins, Ellis). This time, only one.

That will allow Self to play his style of ball. No way we lose 10. No way.

@wissoxfan83 +1 on that. Another sound reason why paying college athletes anything is absurd.

Saw where Bragg says he's going to decide late ... so the odds of Late Night commit go down.

@JayHawkFanToo Well you're absolutely correct. That traditional center is a rare thing. The game has changed.

@jaybate-1.0 and @drgnslayr - Wow. Greene redshirting? I never really thought about that. That does make some sense .. some. I personally think that if Greene isn't getting the time he wants, he's gone. Never know when the next Kelly Oubre (Jaylen Brown, for example) might sign. The OAD effect. If you're Greene, you would blow a redshirt year hoping that a coach that won't really play you in your first two seasons will play you if you stay and redshirt, all with the significant chance that you could be recruited over?

When I hear Self still questioning whether he's buying in on the defensive end, that is concerning to me. When I hear "buy in", that makes me think effort and attitude, as opposed to ability.

Self ain't changing. He is isn't adjusting his approach. Greene better adjust his.

@JayHawkFanToo I agree with your PF vs. C distinction .. that it is blurred. But there are some guys, of course, that have the look of true centers, like Embiid, Withey, Aldrich, and don't look at all like power forwards.

You mentioned that Mickelson is "power forward but will be playing more of a center .."

The importance in the power forward distinction I think is really what coach Self thinks. It certainly sounded like Self does not think Ellis on the court with Mickelson will work. He took particular time to mention the need for things Mickelson apparently doesn't do in reference to what he needs on the court with Ellis.

He also mentioned specifically the idea that Mickelson is the "prototypical four", and a face up guy. That, to me, removes him from the possible blurry middle.

This makes sense then. Self thinks Ellis is better with a buy who is more of a true post player. A post presence. That doesn't mean that player has to be a center. It's just the style of play.

So could Mickelson work with Alexander, Traylor, or Lucas? Sounds like he could.

Of course, Mickelson's a decent shot blocker. But that fact alone doesn't mean he has any propensity to be a rim protector. There are different types of shot blocking. The "I can block you when you start to shoot" shot blocking (Kirk Hinrich was very good at this); the "I can swoop in and block your shot from another spot" shot blocking (Traylor does this well); and the "You drive into the lane, and I'll block your shot" shot blocking (like Embiid and Withey) -- this last one is the rim protecting element of shot blocking.

I am betting that Mickelson's shot blocking isn't near 1/2 "rim protector." Just a hunch. Meaning, I don't think we'll see him in a rim protecting role anymore than we would otherwise see Traylor, Lucas, and Alexander.

Because Self raised the issue of Mickelson not being suited to play with Ellis, and Ellis is likely our biggest minutes guy in the post, by consequence, it sounds reasonable to think that Mickelson might not be a significant minutes guy. Couple that with Self's comments about Mickelson's "skill set" and needing to do more to see "playing time", well, I think it will be interesting.

@Statmachine Based on Selfs comments, Ellis is the top post guy. Self said pretty clearly in the press conference that Mickelson was a "prototypical four", and that he was a "face-up" guy. Many of the thoughts on Mickelson playing was that he was a Center/5. Self also mentioned that with Ellis, he needed more of a post guy and rebounder when commenting about Mickelson. Seemed clear that he didn't like the idea of Ellis and Mickelson together.And as @Crimsonorblue22 said, Self said that Mickelson will need to play bigger than he is, and that he'd have to do some more things to "compete" for playing time.

Would be curious as to your interpretation of Self's comments from the press conference on Mickelson.

@drgnslayr Actually, I think Traylor-Alexander is the type of grouping in the post you could see quite a bit. Assuming Alexander is what we think he is, that is some high-level srappin'. And as we've discussed, Ellis' defense cost him some pine time in favor of Traylor last season. I expect that this season, too.

I think there are only three guys that we can say that we know their ultimate roles "for sure" -- Ellis, Selden, and Traylor (as the first big off the bench). Or at least high probability.

@jaybate-1.0 Great summary .. really was. Of course, I have a couple comments -- you said Jamari Traylor is this team's Brady Morningstar. I choked a bit there. But your logic as to why is impeccably correct. And I remain flummoxed (good word, huh?) by the belief that Perry will flex to the 3 at times. Do you really, really think that Perry will do that, with all of our perimeter players, and when Marcus never really did? If that happened, and I don't think it will except in some fluky 2 minute stretch with foul trouble, it would more likely be like Mason, Graham, Ellis, Traylor, Alexander. Your scenario has Greene or Oubre at the 2 and presumably Lucas or Mickelson at the 5. Taht would be big, lumbering, team.

Holy crap .. if we wanted to play big .. and if Selden could dribble .. Selden, Oubre, Ellis, Alexander, Traylor. But back to reality.

What extended situation, meaning type of game, could possibly lead Self to play Ellis at the 3? I just don't see any benefit.

Another thing, reading your post above -- I caught "jewels are being put in a vice" and "Patton" in the same glance. Patton kind of spoke like his jewels were in a vice. Not a George C. Scott-like tone, for sure.

Is this guy a bad ass or what?

@drgnslayr - you said, "And for Conner... Self really called him out on what it will take for him to really contribute at Kansas. Conner has two choices. First, to just be a shooter. He'll get some limited minutes when we need to see if he's hot and can pull defenses out more. Second, to be an all-around player and earn more minutes."

Both you and @Crimsonorblue22 have correctly identified this challenge. This press conference, quite possibly, was shrewdly calculated by Self to be heard by his players. His words are challenging to CF, for sure (and Brannen Greene, for that matter). I too think that Conner can be a big factor. I kind of think that CF will simply demand playing time. Not vocally, but simply by events on the court and by his strengths.

When discussing the consistency of the style of point guard play with @jaybate-1.0 a while back, there was the discussion that Graham and Mason are likely more similar in style of play (from all we've heard about Graham). His thought was that, as result, they are the most likely pairing. CF is conservative, takes care of the ball -- to me, this singular quality seems like it will demand at least situational playing time.

However, the playmaking thing is a large part of the discussion in the off season. CF ain't a playmaker. He safely delivers the ball. Personally, I think that is a great compliment to a player like Mason. But as @jaybate-1.0 pointed out earlier, can our team handle such a start change in approach mid-game? I'm starting to agree more with @jaybate-1.0's line of thought there.

Random speculation -- I kind of wonder if Self's comments on strength could be simply a preseason explanation for what Self might be anticipating -- that our two small guards are most likely Mason and Graham. Is the strength thing really that important? Is it a red herring? How strong was/is Stephan Curry? Or JJ Reddick? Lots of skinny, relatively weak guys have played this game exceptionally well, especially the ones that could shoot.

@Hawk8086 - You're right on being skeptical about the Graham comments. And really, that goes for everything Self has said. It's just talk. Self has an idea of what he wants, but as he said, the real practices haven't started yet.

@KansasComet "We all know that lack of confidence leads to hesitation and he who hesitates is lost." --- Great quote. I kind of questioned whether Self believed this before his comments. But I think now we know that he does believe it. He just doesn't care -- or more precisely, I think he does care, but just not that much. He values other things much more than catering to the concern that a shooter might hesitate and because of pressure, and be a worse shooter. I'm intrigued really by that concept.

@Crimsonorblue22 Go to the press conference thread here, at 16:00 minutes is the start of the CF question, and the info you reference. Then, at 17:10, Self refers to the topic I mentioned, and that segment ends at 17:45. Just real interesting.

@Crimsonorblue22 Yes, he did compare him to TRob as a freshman .. good clarification.

@Crimsonorblue22 The quick hook thing is something that has been discussed for years, and though I discussed it a lot on the other site, I'm doubtful that it was my original thought. It seems to be the majority opinion around here. Anyway, you do need to listen to it (don't know why you wouldn't -- it is a great chunk of info). You are referring to a different part of the interview.

Syracuse, Louisville, North Carolina, Duke -- our conference doesn't come close to matching up. As @Kip_McSmithers said, kind of seems like a bigger conference gets penalized. Maybe we have less lowlifes?

The Bill Self press conference offered multiple insights into the season. For years, literally, we have debated and discussed Self impact on shooters. My shared premise with many others was that Self, by way of the quick hook, negatively impacts otherwise excellent shooters by not permitting them to shoot with a free mind, without fear of being pulled.

Now, the debate is over.

In the press conference, when discussing Conner Frankamp, Self said the following (paraphrased):

Conner, like many guys, was a high volume shooter in high school. Now, he might get three looks a game. When you have limited looks, there is a lot of pressure to make a shot. You stay in the game if you make your shot, you're out of the game if you miss. No one said it to him, but that's how it played out. That was the "silent message" CF got. We'd like to get him more opportunities to get more minutes, so therefore he will become a better shooter because he'll be more comfortable and have less pressure.

I am smiling. I'm happy. I feel complete.

Of course, the reporter asking the question had no thought to follow up with the most obvious question: "Coach, if you see that an otherwise excellent shooter becomes a much poorer shooter because of the likelihood that he will be pulled if he misses a shot, why wouldn't you consider giving a shooter a bit more leeway? Wouldn't that by consequence give you a more productive player?"

But my expectations are way too high. I would like to hear the answer. Self handles his players, his way, for a reason. That way is different than other coaches. On this issue, I would love to hear the explanation. Regardless, we know that Self agrees with the proposition, and he knows that his quick hook negatively impacts shooters -- he knows that his actions makes them worse shooters.

Other interesting information:

1. Pressing/Pressure: Another topic we have discussed quite a bit is pressing and pressure. Self confirmed some of our discussions. He said firmly he doesn't like to press - he said he's not a big press guy. He stated that he does not press because with better talent, you don't need it to win. He said that you can win games against lesser teams with superior talent, and you may not want to press better teams. Self said that he wants a consistent style of play that gives you the best chance to win in the post season. In the post season, you may not want to press good teams because they have good guards. You don't want to be a pressing team against some teams, and then not a pressing team against others. He said that we need an identity that will work for us.

2. Brannen Greene: I didn't think Self sounded optimistic. Self said that Greene is in a dogfight with Selden, Svi, and Oubre for playing time. Greene had to "buy into guarding" and play defense.

3. Graham: Self said that Devonte was a good leader, and would be "hard to keep out of the lineup." Self believes Graham "will fight for starting minutes" and that his intangibles will allow him to play more early.

4. Mason: I clearly got the impression that Mason is the leader in the point guard battle. Self referenced Frank being tough, referenced Mason before the other two and when discussing playing two small guards, Self said KU could do that because Frank can guard bigger guys. He also said that we could play Frank and Devonte, or Frank and Conner. Self mentioned that last year he took away some of Frank's aggressiveness by making him think too much.

5. Frankamp: On the other hand, I did not hear Self being as optimistic on Frankamp. He referenced more than once that CF needed to get stronger. He also said that as good of a shooter he is, he's not good enough.

6. Mickelson: This was odd. He said very clearly that Mickelson was a "prototypical 4", and that he's a face up guy. He seemed to make it clear that playing Mickelson and Ellis together wouldn't work because Ellis needed a guy who could be the primary rebounder and guard in the post -- again, inferring Mickelson couldn't do that. He said he'd have to do some more things to compete for playing time. But he also complimented his shot blocking.

7. Lucas: Self seemed pretty positive, saying Lucas and Alexander were competing for minutes. In what could be the Andrew White kiss of death, he said that Lucas had the best off season. He said Lucas was "going to play" and that he fighting for major minutes. On the other hand, when asked about redshirts, he said that Lucas couldn't redshirt ... first name out of his mouth; he then said Mickelson and Traylor couldn't either, by name.

8. Pressure: When discussing pressure, he identified five guys -- Mason, Graham, Oubre, Svi, and Traylor. Just kind of made it seem like those are the guys he might throw on the floor if that were the focus.

9. Toughness: Self again implied Tharpe was an issue, stating we had some issues with toughness last season. Won't let that happen this season.

Roster Power Ratings:

(1) Ellis - Self said he couldn't see anyone beating him out.

(2) Selden - Seems like Self's favorite.

(3) Mason - Lots of positive comments - defense, tough, aggressive. All good.

(4) Graham - Seems to really like the guy and wants him to be in the mix.

(5) Oubre - Discussion of high talent. Said he won't be hear very long. Prior comments complimented defense, in contrast to Greene.

(6) Traylor - Seems to be a guy who has a clearly defined, first big off the bench role.

(7) Alexander - Has talked about his toughness, comparing to TRob, but also referenced that fouling could be an issue.

(8) CF - Self had seemed positive, but the strength comments and being so positive on Mason and Graham lead me to think CF is third in the battle.

(9) Greene - The defense comments were concerning. Questioning whether he is buying in on the defensive in right now is clearly a challenge to him.

(10) Lucas - Self seemed more positive on him, than on Mickelson. But the stated battle with Lucas could result in a lost battle, and no minutes.

(11) Mickelson - Some have thought he might be a "5"; Self said he's a face up 4, but also implied he wasn't much of a rebounder.

(12) Svi - This is the enigma, the "who knows", the wild card.

@globaljaybird "After the process & load out I politely mentioned that I would be sure to send the wife over to browse & she replied with a slight smile that I should come also."

I just do not even know how to respond to this ....

I was going to post on this topic. But upon reconsideration, I choose to cite my privileges under the 5th amendment of the Constitution -- i.e., just in case my wife decides to read my posts, or someone rats me out.

@justanotherfan Good info. But I'm a little surprised on the PG talk on Dorsey. I had kind of just seen him as a decent ball handling SG.

Here's ESPN's Summary on Dorsey:

Strengths:
Dorsey has a lethal combination of his size and skill is a sight to see and his athleticism is impressive. He explodes in the open court (reminiscent of John Wall while in high school) and he can cover a lot of ground in a hurry. Although he is most noted for his scoring prowess (pull-ups and slashing drives), his passing ability is what sets him apart from most of his peers.

Weaknesses:
Dorsey is a mature prospect (old for his grade), thus it will be interesting to see how much more he physically develops. Dorsey needs to slow down some in the half court set and play on balance (leaves his feet while passing) which leads to charges and turnovers. Like most players he has a tendency to pound the ball too much, which leads to some turnovers and forced shots. By continuing to develop a triple threat game (squaring up, quick 1st step, jab step, pump fake, etc.) instead of over-handling it, the game should slow down for him.

Bottom Line:
Dorsey continues to prove why he should be mentioned amongst the nations U19 elite for his class. Due to his scoring prowess and approach to the game (plays hard), he has a chance to be an elite shooting guard with continued savvy and skill development.

This seems like a great situation for Dorsey. Most likely, we'll lose Oubre, Selden and a transfer from one of the small guards -- let's say Mason, just as an example. Next season we have Graham and CF - guys that would have won the battle for PT, along with Svi and Greene. That leaves a 5th perimeter spot wide open.

The things I think that could keep Dorsey from committing are 1) the possibility that we could get a Brown or Newman in the late period, and 2) that one of three possible guys that leave actually stays. But this seems like a great situation for him, and I love the idea that he could be a four year player.

I got a message from @Statmachine - he was not able to post, but wanted me to pass along that the Shiver says we are "in a great position to land a big time class." Co-Favorites for Zimmerman, Diallo, and Bragg, and the favorite to land Dorsey. Further, the Shiver says we're in the unofficial top 5 on Brown and Newman.

As Late Night approaches, Self's focus on really nothing but the highest level of recruits in the class of 2015 has really come into focus. With the talent on the Jayhawks' roster, Self doesn't necessarily "need" to add a perimeter player to maintain KU's elite status.

In the post, though, it is a much different dynamic. Most believe that Cliff Alexander is a one and done. Most also believe Perry Ellis will be back for 2015-16, but there is a chance that Ellis moves to the NBA after this season. If both left, KU would have only Mickelson, Lucas, and Traylor as our post players heading into 2015-16. Even if Ellis stays as expected, the Hawks are still in significant need of an infusion of talent down low.

So where does KU sit as of October 1?

Post Players:

-Cheick Diallo PF Rivals #6/ESPN #7 Official Visit 9/19

-Stephen Zimmerman C Rivals #10/ESPN #10 Official Visit 10/10 for Late Night

-Carlton Bragg PF Rivals #14/ESPN #18 Official Visit 10/10 for Late Night

-Ivan Rabb PF Rivals #7/ESPN #5 No Visit Scheduled

-Ted Kapita PF Rivals #36/ESPN #37 No Visit Scheduled

-Caleb Swanigan C Rivals #16/ESPN #8 No Visit Scheduled

The interest level and involvement by KU with Kapita and Swanigan is questionable.

**Perimeter Players: **

-Jaylen Brown SF Rivals #2/ESPN #2 Official Visit 10/10 for Late Night

-Malik Newman SG Rivals #3/ESPN #3 No Visit Scheduled

-Tyler Dorsey SG Rivals#19/ESPN #33 Official Visit 10/10 for Late Night

-Brandon Ingram SF Rivals #18/ESPN #12 Official Visit 10/10 for Late Night

-Derrick Jones SF Rivals #41/ESPN #22 No Visit Scheduled

The interest level and involvement by KU with Jones is questionable.

Thought this list might be helpful. Would be interested in anyone's additions, comments, or information that might supplement.

@BeddieKU23 Don't we kind of deserve that surprise player, like the Derrick Williams, or Tyler Ennis? The guy that far exceeds expectations. Like immediately. Maybe Graham is it.

Can anyone imagine Self starting three freshmen again after last season? Cliff, Oubre, Graham? I can't.

@jayhawkbychoice You said, "The game plan need to stay flexible and scouting needs to be detailed with an eye towards using any of the tools in the toolbox (players) when advantages present themselves."

The "stay flexible" part and the more precise topic of capitalizing on advantages always concern me with our coach.

@JayHawkFanToo Ok .. you and @Statmachine and @DinarHawk had me sold until your last sentence. Start instead of who? Ellis or Alexander?

And I'm a little skeptical of him leap frogging Traylor. If Mickelson is that good, we could have a true 4 man post rotation.

@DinarHawk Not to nit-pick, but Mickelson his sophomore year was way off the radar with blocks, just 1.2 per game. Wasn't much of a factor there. But his freshman season was better, he was a ranked 36th in the nation, appx. 2.25 per game. So there is some optimism there.

Now, Mickelson being " considered one of the top centers in the country" -- let's just say I'm cautiously optimistic there. Perhaps not holding my breath. But wouldn't that be a cool thing to have happen? That's the kind of thing that changes a team's season.

Dana Dimel. If he is a Bill Snyder protege, I want that.

@Crimsonorblue22 I could certainly see why Self didn't play him, either. But I hesitate to indict any freshman in Self's system. Learning curve (usually) moves vastly upward after the initiation to Self-ball.

My concern with CF as a point guard is the other side of the sword -- he did have low turnovers, but he also had nearly no assists. Further, the eye test (I've been mocked on that before), but he doesn't look the part. He moves methodically. He protects the ball. Tail dribbles. Is very careful.

For my money, I don't mind a few wisely aggressive turnovers. Truth be told, turnover aren't all bad as part of a certain offensive approach. But in Self's system, which seems conservative, CF was even more so.

I fall in the category of one who thinks that CF has the lowest chance of the three of being our starting PG on Feb. 1. I still like the guy. And think he could be the #2 point guard. But not the #1.

@globaljaybird Thanks for the link .. I read there that Bragg is going to decide in the late signing period. That is contrary to what I had read elsewhere. Hoping he doesn't wait.

When the music stop, I cannot imagine that one of top post guys doesn't pick KU. The question is if we get two, and the question is if we can get a highly talented, foundational, non-OAD guy -- Bragg seems like the only option on our radar that fits the bill.

@jayhawkbychoice Good post. I think you are pretty accurate in your summary. Coach Self always talks about theoretic stuff. He's not starting two of the small guards. No way. But playing them significantly? For sure. Really, most all of our rotation projections included two of those three anyway, based on ball handling. We knew Self had to have two ball handlers as part of the perimeter rotation, and we knew Selden ain't an option.

The news, though, is really Self suggesting that we've always been better like that.

Maybe we were. In 2008, and 2012 -- both Final Four seasons we started two off guards that could handle like point guards, didn't we?

@crimsonorblue22 - Here's what separated CF and Tharpe: Effort - did you ever feel that CF wasn't busting his a**? With Tharpe, effort on defense was his enemy. Now, will CF be a competent defender? I don't know. He did seem to front his offensive player better than Tharpe, but it's hard to tell really. The defensive end could decide the PG battle.