🏀 KuBuckets Archive

@HighEliteMajor HEM, I 'm not going to deny that we could have or should have beaten Stanford. I just don't get your point to keep harping on it for the past 9 weeks. It's over. I expected the Hawks to beat Stanford but I certainly wasn't surprised that they lost.

They were lucky to win at Texas Tech. Had to hold on against Okie State, when they almost blew a 17-point halftime lead.

Maybe you're right that Self should be recruiting lower-ranked players who may (or may not) develop well enough to get them to another FF. Maybe the coaching staff should be fired for leading KU to only 2 FF championship games in the past 7 years. Maybe Zenger should be looking for a coach that wouldn't produce such lofty expectations. Then you wouldn't be so distraught at the end-of-the-season losses. I've been through a number of years like that. Seasons when KU had outstanding players but didn't get into the NCAA tournament. I don't really care to go back to those years.

@HighEliteMajor So we lost to a #10 seed. Who cares? I don't understand why you are so fixated on that. Everyone on this board was disappointed that they lost to Stanford. KU could very easily have been seeded at least a couple notches lower. I am only saying they didn't play well enough during the course of the season to expect much better.

You're right that they started with an impressive 7-0 run (four at AFH and one at TCU) in the conference. The last 13 games before the NCAA tourney, they went 8-5. That was not impressive at all. And it certainly wouldn't cause most to expect them to make a decent tournament run.

I really do not understand why anyone is extremely disappointed with the way KU finished this year. Or how anyone could have thought "Coach Self had an excellent chance for a title last season." There were too many games they played poorly or inconsistently. A game or two against mediocre teams they easily could have lost--i.e. UTEP and at Texas Tech. Also, especially the second half of the Oklahoma State game at AFH. These should have sent up red flags to all those who expected a great postseason run.

At the beginning of the NCAA tournament, KU already had 9 losses. Only two champions had lost that many since KU's 11 in 1988. They didn't put together 6 straight games all year that were impressive. The tournament wasn't the time they were going to do that either against solid or great teams--especially with poor guard play and Embiid sitting out.

@icthawkfan316 You got it. I don't understand why the other issues are mentioned unless and until the pg problem is addressed. Fixing them won't take care of the problem. Unless that is addressed, next year is going to be a big disappointment as well.

@drgnslayr I don't understand the sudden disgust with OADS or with freshman getting so much playing time--as if this were something new. As far back as 1994-95, Raef LaFrentz averaged 23.6 mpg. Later averages were: Paul Pierce--25.4 mpg; Kirk Hinrich --21.3; Nick Collison--22.8; Drew Gooden--20.8; Brandon Rush--31.7; Mario Chalmers--26.3; Sherron Collins--22.3. There were other freshmen who had substantial playing time who I have forgotten or not mentioned.

Neither Coach Williams nor Coach Self refused to play freshmen because they were looking at a "big picture." They were not playing because neither coach felt they contribute enough at that time to help win more games.

I don't recall so many complaints about the way those freshmen were used. But now that a season in which some expected better results in the tournament came to a disappointing close--there are a number who jump on the bandwagon and essentially declare it to be a problem with the way Self is using freshmen. Just doesn't make sense.

@drgnslayr I think it really doesn't matter what kind of recruiting plan I design for Kansas. Nor do I think it is important if I want all OADs or whether I want players who are not even in the top 100. :-)

I don't think your feeling that presumed OADs work with Calipari but don't work for Self is valid. Kansas has had 3 presumed OADs in the Self era--Henry, Selby, and Wiggins. Kansas has also had one definite OAD--Black. And it made no more sense to go after Black than it did to go after Wiggins. As far as results at KU, Selby should not be considered because of his ineligibility and subsequent injury. If he had been available for every practice and to play every game, he may have been phenomenal. Since his playing time was so limited--and perhaps a feeling that he didn't have the support of 100% of the fans--Josh probably felt that he didn't fit in at KU. So that leaves two OADs who were able to go the whole season. That's not enough to use as a comparison. And, without better outside play, no matter what Wiggins had done, it wouldn't have been good enough.

HEM

I have one more question (before I get back to work). You've mentioned that you would have preferred to sign Karviar Shepherd rather than Wiggins. According to ESPN, he was rated #77 in the 2013 class. As I recall, he turned us down. When that happens--which is almost a sure thing at some point--would you keep going down the list of lower-ranked players until you can get a commit? Or would you then try to go up the list to try to get a higher-ranked player? I just don't have much confidence that you can go from lower to higher.

@HighEliteMajor I assume what you are saying is you think Self's system is wrong. And KU would have done better by going after fewer top-tier players. If that is what you're saying, then I assume you are satisfied with the development of Tharpe, who has been in the system for 3 years. And Ellis will be in his 3rd season next year. (I'm not ragging on those two. It just seems that they were the two most often criticized this year.) You feel everyone should be patient because it will all work out. Your posts don't cause me to think that's the way you really feel.

@HighEliteMajor In your last post, you refer to Jermaine Lawrence, another big man. I remind you again that the bigs were not he problem. The bigs actually covered up the problem on the perimeter for almost all of the year. And it doesn't really matter if KU gets a OAD or 4 and done big. If the guard play is not significantly better next year, the end result won't be much better. Forget the bigs. Which outside player did you want Self to recruit that he didn't go after?

One more thing...

If Coach Self starts going after lower-ranked recruits, all the higher-ranked recruits are going to get the idea that they aren't wanted at Kansas. Then, if he misses on the next tier of recruits, he will have to go lower still. It won't be long till we are recruiting very average players.

HEM

Your philosophy is good if you can assume that Coach Self will always be able to get the top-50 players he wants or needs to plug into his system. But that certainly is not a guarantee. If he decides to not go after the best, and he doesn't get that top-50 player, then he is faced with going after a still-lower (and maybe much lower) ranked player. That's why Tharpe is here.

One of the problems Self has--and he has mentioned this a number of times--is the outrageously high expectations every year from KU supporters and fans. "We lost all five starters, but we are still expected to win the conference title and compete for the NC."

You mentioned the mid-majors: VCU, George Mason, Butler, Wichita State. I'm sure there are others. They all did well for 2-3 years. If KU would miss the NCAA tourney once, fans around here would be calling for Self to be fired.

Fans aren't patient enough to wait for players to develop. Case in point is David Padgett. Posters on these boards didn't allow him any time to develop. Constantly criticized him. Merciless. He may have turned out to be quite valuable if he had been given time to develop.

I remind you again that OADs Wiggins and Embiid were not the ones responsible for the loss in the 3rd round of the tournament. As EKY said, KU didn't have a decent point guard. That's not a OAD drama issue.

I have always enjoyed reading your posts. Almost always insightful and thought-provoking. But I just don't know how--considering the play throughout the season--you could have expected a better showing in the postseason.

HEM, I think most people that come to this site want KU to win a NC just as much as you do. You mentioned teams that had won it multiple times...UCONN, Duke, UNC, Florida, UK. How many of those have been since 2003, when Self took over? For the years prior to 2003, the question of why haven't we won should be directed to Williams, Owens, Harp, etc. And I really don't think Self should have been expected to compete for a NC in his first two or three years at KU.

One thing to remember is that it normally takes a lot of luck. You gotta admit there was luck involved with Mario's shot falling against Memphis. You also gotta admit there was a lot of luck in 1988 when all the top seeds kept losing. That was incredible.

If things had not gone KU's way those two years, then you would be talking 1952 since KU won a championship. Talk about frustration.

@MoonwalkMafia Your logic seems to be that the reason this team did not progress further was that Wiggins and/or Embiid did not do well enough to cause KU to advance past the 3rd round. One of the opponents actually made the comment that KU didn't have a true pg. I'm not bashing Tharpe in his first year of being the pg. I'm just saying that if you feel that the main issue is the OADs, then you should be patient waiting for the development of Tharpe. And if you're waiting for players to develop, you should expect there would be losses and upsets.

HEM, I also agree with you to a certain point. I just don't agree with you on how we get there. I don't think the answer is to recruit lower-rated prospects that will stay 3-4 years, hoping they will develop into a team that is capable of winning a NC. It is easy to use Dayton or Wichita State or even Butler in hindsight as an example of what KU should do. But compare the level of consistency those schools have had for the past 25-30 years. The successes of those schools is once or twice in a generation. And none have won the championship.

No problem with not wanting Harrison to play here. I can't say that I wanted him here either. But you can replace his name with any of the other potential or presumed OADs. My logic is that it doesn't make sense to question logic of bringing in Embiid or Wiggins and at the same time be upset that Self continues to try to develop and use Tharpe.

The Embiid-Shepherd has been debated time and again. My question for all is: Considering the way the season and the NCAA tournament have played out so far, would you have preferred likely OAD Andrew Harrison be signed by Kansas? Or would you have preferred that Bill Self and the rest of the coaches continue to invest in the development of Naadir Tharpe?

We have beat the Embiid-Shepherd question to death. So I have a question I would like to throw out. If you had had the chance to get Tyler Ennis or Andrew Harrison or Kasey Hill, knowing they were almost certainly OADs, would it be your preference to turn them down, and invest your time and energy in the development of Naadir Tharpe?

HEM, I think a coach either has to assume that all recruits are going to be 3-4 year guys or that they are going to all be OADs. If Wiggins would have had a disappointing season and he had fallen considerably in the draft, he would have been playing next year at Kansas. Brandon Rush was considered a OAD by many people. It didn't work out. He would certainly have been done after his sophomore season if he had not been injured during NBA draft tryouts. Contrary to what many seem to think, Rush didn't come back because of the name across the front of his jersey. I think the coach just drafts the player who he feels will best fit into his system and lets the chips fall where they may. Otherwise, he will "what if?" himself to death.

@HighEliteMajor I just think that there are so many variables that your question can't be answered. Would Shepherd have enjoyed his freshman year at KU? Would he have liked Self and/or his teammates? Would he have decided to transfer after his freshman year because he didn't think he would ever get enough playing time? Would he have liked Lawrence? What would he have thought about being in this area during this brutal winter? Maybe everything would have worked out perfectly but you never know.

As I said earlier, I like the 4-year player too. I liked the way it was 50-60 years ago. It's hard to get attached to a player when he stays for only one year. I just think as the rule is now, it is just impractical to expect a top recruit to stay for more than one year. But you still have to go after them or your whole program will decline.

@HighEliteMajor Unless you know what Shepherd would have done in the KU system, it's impossible to say. If Shepherd had come to KU and progressed into one of the top 3 draft choices, he probably would have left as well. Then would you have been wishing for Embiid? Unless you know how Shepherd would have done and whether he would have opted to stay at KU after a sensational season, your question doesn't have an answer.

@Blown As I stated before, both Rush and Arthur were potential--and maybe presumed--OADs. I believe Manning would have been if the rule had been effect at that time. Chamberlain certainly would have been. If you start recruiting lesser talent, there will be no end to the dropoff. The KANSAS name doesn't mean nearly as much to these kids as you think it does. UCLA was for years the premier destination for a college basketball player. Do you still think they want to go there?

@Blown Let's assume Bill Self decides this summer to go after a #50 instead of #1-5 since he can't have the premier player for more than one year. Word will get out that Self prefers the lower-rated player. In 2014 or 2015, the NBA decides to change the rule to make it two-and-done (or three-and-done). Self is going to have a difficult--if not impossible--task of convincing the best talent that it would be to the recruit's advantage to come to Kansas. It won't be long before #50 is a crown jewel for KU. Then we would be happy that we beat out a Mizzou for an NCAA tournament berth.

@nuleafjhawk Wilt almost won an NCAA championship in his first year. Lew Alcindor and 3 other sophomores won a championship their first year. Carmelo Anthony led his team to the championship his first year. Kentucky's first-year players won the championship in 2012. Michigan was one timeout away from a championship with first-year players.

For two consecutive years, it would have been hard to beat being a Butler fan. After a few years, you don't hear so much about Butler anymore.

My question to anyone is this: If there had never been a requirement that a player attend college before entering the NBA, do you really think Wilt would have come to KU? What about Danny Manning? Would you recruit either of those two players with the current OAD rule in effect? Whether they had ever played in an NCAA championship or not, those two names would have had a positive effect on KU recruiting for years to come.

@HighEliteMajor Your philosophy that you'd rather have the "#50ish player" rather than a potential OAD is interesting. But if you are going to go after that player and exclude the OAD, you are starting to look at recruiting against Texas and Gonzaga rather than Kentucky and Arizona. You are also hoping for a 4 or 5 seed--or even lower--every year in the NCAA tournament, with the hope of making it to the top tier. Once you start dropping, the higher-rated prospects are going to start going elsewhere.

I was thrilled that Wiggins chose to come to KU. I think this season was much better than it would have been without him.

Also, many refer to the 2008 team as being special because it lacked an OAD. However, both Brandon Rush and Darrell Arthur were potential OADs. Is that the type player you don't want to recruit anymore?

@HighEliteMajor My first comment ever on a board about KU sports. I don't like for these kids to leave after one year anymore than you do. However, a couple observations: 1) When Joel came to KU, he was considered to be a "project." He was supposed to be a backup behind Tarik Black--not a OAD. He developed much faster than expected and put himself into position to be as high as a #1 NBA draft choice. 2) It could be that Bill Self has stated that it would be foolish for him to come back since he can't improve his draft stock much, if any.

I would be hard-pressed to make the decision to return to KU under those circumstances. I would imagine you would too.