@FarmerJayhawk Your telling me this viewpoint is as hateful and dangerous as racist conspiracy theories? Your example is trying to reimagine the way we look at the world with peace and love while the one I shared is spreading and sowing hate. You are free to believe what you want obviously but I know which I find more dangerous and appalling.
https://time.com/5848705/disband-and-replace-minneapolis-police/ ā
Is it a radical point of view? Sure. Is it hateful and evil?
@FarmerJayhawk And tell me again how that is close to the same as racist conspiracy theories?
And does he work directly for the Democratic Party? Canāt seem to find that he does. I may be wrong.
Is it nut picking if the nuts find me?
How many till this becomes an actual problem? Serious question? I know one wacko doesnāt represent the rest. Remember, these are ideas these folks felt comfortable sharing in public! What do they say in private? How many agree that are smart enough not to share on Facebook?
And yes I see republican leadership speaking out against it as they should and yes I know they donāt represent everyone in the Republican Party. But am I wrong there seems to be an issue here? Again, happy to be wrong.
There's a reason ancient tales of warriors dedicate thousands of words to the hero donning his armor. It's part of every epic battle movie these days. Changing your physical appearance and preparing for battle changes your mental state. I don't think those officers kneeling were insincere, but you put them in full riot gear, marching in lines and suddenly even a 75 year old man can look like a threat. Go to a gun range and ask every person there how holding a gun makes them feel and a majority of the time they will say "powerful." It's a rush. But that adrenaline while heightening your senses and quickening your heart rate is not helping you make rational, empathetic decisions. I know folks talk about individual responsibility but that fails to recognize the systemic issues influencing those individuals actions.
@approxinfinity said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):
@BShark Oh? I may be misinformed.
Thatās not a hard thing to be at the moment.
@Crimsonorblue22 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):
@kjayhawks I think some are from wichita. I've seen videos of cops dumping bricks off, breaking windows of store fronts and vandalizing their own cars. Have u seen the one today of them shoving an old man to the grown and knocking him out? 75 yr old. Was awful. Hard for me to stick up for some of those guys. I'm not saying that about hutch cops. So many I see on tv have their names and numbers covered. Got me scared!
The video with the 75 year old is hard to watch for so many reasons. I think it points out how policing causes good people to lose their humanity. One of the officers after the man falls starts to bend down to check on him but is immediately redirected by what has to be his superior. After that 10-15 more cops just walk by a human body clearly in distress.
I want believe that most of these officers joined because they want to help people and help their community (Even when things I have heard from my brother who is a police officer cause me to doubt that belief). Instead they are now part of a system that forces them to ignore their most human instincts to bend down and check on a bleeding old man just canāt be good for their psyche. Sooooooo much change is needed.
What about this one? Seems like a pretty well coordinated scam traced back to one group. Am I missing where this info isnāt legit? Again busloads of āantifaā are not driving state to state...
@kjayhawks hmm... not sure when I shared random twitter people sharing what they heard about antifa or WS... the link I shared on that topic was business insider and had comments from twitter spokesperson. Is that not legit?
I did post ārandom twitter postsā of folks critiquing the 8 cant wait policies I And bshark had shared earlier. Those werenāt so much about the validity of information in them but the validity of the criticisms of that movement which I initially endorsed.
Again, the comment about radical left v center right was in jest and agreeably possibly out of line.
@kjayhawks said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):
Maybe the common ground that we need to move forward in this is the fact we all agree that the police were in the wrong. Iāve seen not a single person of any race defend these guys. Police brutality is a problem, for several groups of people (ask most Motor cyclists in clubs). People will be quick to point out that more whites are killed by police each year and thatās true. But percentage wise the number for Minorities is higher based on how many more whites live in this country. Think of it as an endangered species of bird, we must work hard to ensure the survival of said species. But it doesnāt mean we are gonna go after all the others. Black lives matter is standing up to save the endangered, not downgrading the rest.
Preach!
@kjayhawks To me white supremacists make the most since because of people believe the protests are violent they can more easily be discounted. And there are several confirmed cases of that happening. But agree there is plenty more going on we donāt know or understand. Some folks seem mighty pumped to have troops in the streets which is just bizarre to me.
@kjayhawks which links were the big offenders for you. Seriously curious of your thoughts. Not trying to start anything.
@kjayhawks said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):
@Crimsonorblue22 not sure to be honest but someone is trying tear this country apart. All the looters that were arrested in MN were outta state, some 15 hour drives away. Definitely something fishy going on. The average person canāt afford to just up and drive that far unless someone gives them money or in most cases it sounds like they are being bused in. In most the videos Iāve seen itās white folks wearing Antifa shirts and what not. One video I saw appeared to have no construction in the area but a pallet of bricks sitting on the side of the road like someone just had them delivered. I trust no one as per usual, always something crazy in an election year.
If the video you saw is the one trump tweeted it was geotagged and debunked. Not that thatās the only video out there. The crazy rumors spreading around wichita was a confirmed white supremacist group pretending to be black lives matter. Iād be very surprised if there was some elaborate conspiracy to bring agitators to small town Kansas. More likely online trolls trying to rule up conservative white folks. (And yes those trolls could be left, right, center, or not even on the spectrum)
@kjayhawks Iāve never said only cops should have guns. Iām actually in favor of less cops carrying guns and have been for a long time. I said my remark was snarky and a bad attempt at a light poke. Probably wasnāt the time or place. Again, sorry if I hurt your feelings. Was not my intention. Iām happy to be wrong and clearly the comment didnāt go over well. Now that summer has started and my partner is still working from home Iām getting a bit restless and a bit looser with what I decide to hit submit on moment to moment. If there is any other concession youād like me to make or have any other demands, let me know. Happy to listen.
@mayjay 98% if you ask him.
@FarmerJayhawk why is defunding the police a nutty policy option. Itās in no way equivalent to conspiracy cop killings to hurt trump. You yourself said they have too much military gear and overly police certain areas did you not? Is there significant proof that skyrocketing police budgets are reducing crime?
@FarmerJayhawk Does highlight the importance of paying attention locally as well as nationally. That "nut picking" was kind of my point. It might just be that one person never really fully represents an entire movement and instead only represents themselves. Still, glad she's being held accountable where others with similar tendencies have not.
Perhaps the flippant tone wasnāt the best approach and obviously republicans are calling for her to resign as that is the title of the link.
But ask yourself, is Donald Trump more likely to retweet the conspiracy theory or the calls for her to resign?
Iāll remember in the future that chairs of the Republican Party donāt represent republican ideas. Sorry if I offended any ācenter rightā folks.
When people complain about the radical left while this kind of stuff is now considered center right...
A thread MADE for this original post and topic. Please read the whole thing if you claim to be interested in FACTS and statistics.
š¦ View Tweet?s=21
Some very fair criticism of some links I and others posted yesterday. Learning something new everyday is good!
š¦ View Tweet?s=21
š¦ View Tweet?s=21
š¦ View Tweet?s=21
@BShark I already called my mayor today as Austin still has a LOT of work to do. Noticed Wichita currently is at 3 out of the 8 and Kansas City 0/8. We have our own case here locally that isn't as widely publicized. His name was Mike Ramos. I listened to his mother speak on a zoom general council meeting and it was heartbreaking.
For my Wichita people who might be worried about stuff going around online, make sure you know where your information is coming from.
https://www.businessinsider.com/white-nationalist-identity-evropa-twitter-antifa-looting-2020-6 ā
š¦ View Tweet?s=21
Hmm... why would āenforcement officersā remove names and insignias?
Here is an org with a clear plan and actionable steps to enact change of anyone is interested. A lot of similarities to stuff posted by @FarmerJayhawk
@HighEliteMajor said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):
@benshawks08 Cool. The turnoff, of course, has never been the disagreeing part.
Remember, people are and should be considered enemies from a personal/family preservation standpoint. The inner city thug that wants to kill me is my enemy. The cop that is a murderous thug is my enemy. If you want to destroy America and overthrow the government -- enemy. If he wants to talk then it's different. But let's be clear. People are the ones that cause harm. People are who we defend against.
On Trump, I voted for him. Trump is disgusting to me. His policies are what I strongly support. But the man is repugnant. If I could have either Obama or Trump to my house for dinner, I'd go with Obama without thinking about it. Hillary was nearly as personally repugnant and worse because she was such a part of the system. My vote was defensive, as well, to oppose what I see from the left.
Trump is truly incapable of doing anything here. He is so hated by the left that no matter what he does, it's mocked. Anything. But I don't find him capable at all of being one that could unite. I do think Biden could do that. But I revert my defensive vote .. the more he embraces left, left, left, the less I can really even consider that. Where is Joe Lieberman when you need him, or John Kasich for that matter?
On point 7, if my area was high crime, out of control, I'm good with it. Further, if I travel to those areas (as I am tomorrow), I'd be good with being searched. I find it interesting that the left is very quick to ok the removal of personal liberties when there is a virus with a 3% death rate but won't consider it in war zones. To stop the bloodshed and violence, I'll sacrifice a bit to get that under control.
I'd moderate on the extra prison stuff. Perhaps that wasn't my best idea. I'm not a fan of hate crime stuff anyway. But .. my motivation is to protect those that are victimized. The six year old shot on his porch because his uncle angered a drug dealer.
Of course, being a single parent and an atheist does not make one bad. But the dynamic in the inner city is striking. Rahm Emanuel, who is very much "left" and was the mayor of Chicago for 8 years, said, near the end of his tenure -
āThis may not be politically correct," he said, "but I know the power of what faith and family can do. ā¦ Our kids need that structure. ā¦ I am asking ā¦ that we also donāt shy away from a full discussion about the importance of family and faith helping to develop and nurture character, self-respect, a value system and a moral compass that allows kids to know good from bad and right from wrong.ā
It is a critical element in the discussion and should not be ignored just because some folks are anti-religion and have find it threatening when the nuclear family is valued. We know the left hates that.
The Chicago Sun-Times noted the correctness of Emanuel's the message.
But then there are those that don't want to discuss ALL of the issues. Countless articles. Interestingly, now, when you search, you can barely find anything reporting the comments. Rather, just the attacks. It's all about being a victim.
An example of the anger - Shari Runner, former president and CEO of the Chicago Urban League, deemed the remarks insensitive. "I cannot see the victims of racist policies and bigoted practices shamed by anyone who says they need to do better or be better in their circumstance. I wonāt accept it,ā Runner said
This is a huge part of the problem. Victim. Victim. It's a mindset.
Part of the mindset is blaming guns. Anything BUT the individual.
Further, the left says you can't be a perpetrator if you are also a victim. It's what we see now. All the ridiculous fawning over the proteste ... er, rioters. It's the "in" thing for all public figures to have to comment on. And if you say something that doesn't fit the message, like Tiger Woods today, it's attack -- Woods said, correctly, that it makes no sense to burn your own neighborhoods. Can you imagine that?
But I'm sure he's not "black" enough -- at least according Biden, right? To the left, you "ain't black" if you don't fall in line with the left's message.
Also, Chicago is very much an interesting case study. I encourage everyone to spend time and review the volatility during Emmanuel's tenure. What you will find is constant complaining about over policing, under policing. About stopping crime. About harassment and brutality. I wasn't able to find it but there was one councilman that complained one time about too many police and then a year later about not enough police to stop the crime. It's really a sick comedy.
But it is encapsulated in the quote from the Ms. Runner above. The leftist inner city leadership takes zero responsibility, by and large. The quote is gold. They have been in charge. They claim things have gotten worse. Makes you think, if you want to think.
I just canāt disagree more about the enemy stuff. No one is going to want to talk if you show up armed to teeth with preconceived notions about them being the enemy. I fully believe that what you get from people is mostly a reflection of what you put out. And if all you can think is enemy enemy enemy, enemies you will have.
Help with the logic on Trump. You dislike him, find him Repugnant, would rather have obama over for dinner (?), and are positive he cannot fox what you yourself have claimed to be the biggest issue facing our nation and one that is life or death. But with all that said are still pretty sure you will vote for him over Biden (who you admit might be able to address the issue) because āthe left.ā
What could possibly be more dangerous than a vile repugnant man incapable of fostering unity being allowed to āleadā (because are you leading of a majority arenāt following) the country for four more years, knowing that heās already been impeached and it would be virtually impossible to remove him for anything he might do. Remember this repugnance we are all witnessing is him trying to get re-elected. What does it look like when he no longer cares?
I believe you when you say you care about life and people. And I can generally see from your posts you are not stupid. So I just canāt understand this stance.
As for the church stuff, know my dad was a preacher and I grew up basically living in united Methodist churches. But the government cannot get involved in sponsoring religious activities. Do churches with an abundance from their affluent suburban flock need to do more outreach? Yes. These mega churches drive me crazy with the amount of tax free revenue they seem to only reinvest in their own blossoming communities (generally newer bigger buildings for themselves to use). But the government cannot and should not be advocating or sponsoring any religion as part of policy.
As for the less police, more police dynamic you speak of, the goal should be to reduce police presence AND increase services at the same time.
Victim hood is a dangerous mindset but I would argue oppression is more dangerous. Work to fix the inequity and then there are no victims. It always seems you are advocating for āpersonal responsibilityā for those who are shouldering the heaviest burden and have the least power and control in society. Iām glad to see you agree the police officer in this most recent incident is responsible for murder. If he was willing to do that with a smirk on his face as people recorded him and three other officers helped, how much pain and suffering did those officers cause in that community when no one was looking. Who is responsible for that communities distrust of authority? Who is responsible for the anger bubbling over right now? Itās tough to take personal responsibility with a knee on your neck and four more on your back. Thatās what I think Shari Runnerās quote is saying. And yeah, itās gold.
@FarmerJayhawk Those all sound like a good start.
I go back and forth on unions because as a teacher (and specifically as a special
Education teacher for 5 years) Iāve seen the good and bad of teacher unions. They provide a singular voice that can advocate for raises and structural changes that have made life better for teachers. At the same time, Iāve watched unions handcuff administrators from getting rid of objectively bad teachers.
With more and more money filtering up instead of trickling down, unions are essential to leveling the playing field but I agree the police unions are notoriously awful and a serious problem that needs to be dealt with.
Your list is about as good of list as Iāve seen and I appreciate you note they are ālow hanging fruitā meaning there are larger systems changes need beyond those as well.
Well done.
@approxinfinity I think you are hearing differing stories because different people are doing it everywhere. Are black people Peacefully protesting and occasionally rioting out of pure anger and frustration, yes. Are Some black people taking advantage of the chaos to loot, yep. Are other people of color doing all of the things listed above? Probably. For the same reasons? Likely? Are white people? Yes. For the same reasons? Sometimes. But their are also folks (predominantly white) who are looting, burning, commuting acts of violence, simply to discredit the peaceful protests and put people of color into further danger from police violence. Itās all of the above unfortunately which makes sorting it all out nearly impossible.
Interesting video from a former longhorn: watch the whole thing for him to cover many of the questions and topics discussed above. (Sorry not your question @approxinfinity)
š¦ View Tweet?s=21
@BigBad Police brutality is not just a race problem but race is obviously a factor. Pretty sure segregation isnāt the answer. Itās been tried and failed.
@Crimsonorblue22 Itās great you stood up for your kids. Just to push a little harder though because I know you can take it. What if they werenāt straight a students and involved in school activities? Would they deserve to be followed?
I get that same shaking feeling you had a lot and I think it really shows how out of touch we are with what people of color go through. Itās honestly I big reason why I started posting so much on this board. To practice confronting racism in as non threatening a place as exists for me helps me be better prepared when I encounter it in the real world. My fingers shake sometimes just typing on my phone. Iām in no danger but that adrenaline does a real number on our bodies.
Keep standing up for people with compassion and love. We need more people like you in this world.
I didnāt notice any sentencing or punishment suggestions for police brutality and murder in the numerated plan above. Thoughts there?
Here is an article showing some of the emotional toll of some of HEMs tactics:
https://theathletic.com/1845455/2020/06/01/i-remember-you-crying-encountering-racism-by-staffers-at-the-athletic/ ā
@HighEliteMajor said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):
I hear folks all over saying there needs to be an "honest" conversation. I've tried that. I tried it here. But whenever the conversation gets uncomfortable, or it strays into territories that leftists see as off limits, the conversation ends.
Remember, police have to have a high presence in high crime areas or the good citizens will be the victims. If there is not high crime, then there is not a high police presence. That's how it works. When police see, day after day, black men committing horrible crimes, which is a fact in the inner city. It's an undeniable fact. The lesser of those cops take the brutality route. Day after day, the same thing.
Policing in high crime areas is not nice. Policing attracts man folks that are on power trips and that have violent tempers. The worst sort of personality one might think for the job. In some situations, their aggressiveness may save lives.
But it's why you have police brutality. Because you have many of the wrong personalities in police work. And they can't control themselves based on what they see day to day.
There are many pieces to this puzzle. One is that the inner city black culture, the same stuff I have railed against, has to change. That's one piece. And until there is some sort of moral foundation, that piece will never end.
A small sampling from Minneapolis, this one from the last September. And right, you see crap like this regularly.
Of course, my thread that pretty much devolved into anything but a discussion. There is no discussion when you challenge a leftist, even if the purpose and concern is to protect the lives and safety of the good inner city folks. It doesn't matter. You say "race", the leftist convulses.
Folks act in cultures. Many sub-cultures are grouped by race. This is one. The destructive inner city black culture.
But guess which else is one -- the cop culture. This is a huge issue that is part of the problem. But see the leftists will only acknowledge "culture" when it works for them. An important distinction when it comes to rationality.
Until the the self-inflicted issues are address in the inner city, all the money thrown that way won't do any good. The way people think and approach life is the only thing that keeps folks from killing and maiming.
/topic/9118
Here's a post I made in this topic when asked what I'd do in the inner city -
@Kcmatt7 At the core, this starts with acknowledging the problem. Thatās the impasse. Until the problem is IDād and acknowledged, you canāt attack it. The fact is it is an inner city culture of violence. Changing culture takes a long time.
First identify āinner city safety zones.ā
Public steps to involve the churches and faiths. Get people to church in these zones. The church is a huge factor in turning this around.
Public steps to encourage and foster marriage. Inner city safety zones that reward folks for marriage and self sufficiency. But more, public efforts to discuss and call out the ābaby mamaā culture. This is the real enemy. 75% single mother births among blacks. Worse among inner city blacks. Much higher than other races or cultures.
The president has to take the lead. I felt Obama missed an historic opportunity. Trump obviously canāt do it. We need another president to make this job one. The first domestic priority. The one where the most lives are lost/destroyed.
Have special inner city safety zone courts that expedite prosecutions, warrants, and labeling of threats.
We have hate crime legislation that leads to outrageous results. Use that logic. Huge sentences for crimes in inner city zones were the real violence is occurring. Drive by and shoot a little black child on a porch, life in prison regardless of whether there is a death. Wear a mask in a crime, 5 more years. Robbery, any kind, 40 years. Develop a ridiculously strict sentencing structure for inner city safety zones.
Inner city gang affiliation prosecuted as RICO crimes. Increase sentences for inner city safety zones. You go to jail for being in a criminal gang. Just for affiliation.
Stop and frisk permitted in inner city zones of all males. Horrible? Discriminatory? Yes on both counts. Too bad. Males are 95% of the problem.
If you have a felony conviction for anything violent, or you are an IDād gang member by the safety zone courts, inner city zone warrants automatically issued for random searches of home and auto. Inner city courts can order drug treatment without a trial. 90 day commitments.
In inner city safety zones, curfews strictly enforced. Cars pulled over after 10:00. People off the streets. Only to and from work and a few other exceptions. Businesses close at 9:00.
Posting of army style officers that walk a beat in these areas. In pairs. No female cops in these areas. No male cops under 200 pounds. Much higher pay. Elite training. Federal involvement in supporting/training.
Air surveillance, like a war zone.
Massive use of food kitchens. Free meals in all inner city safety zones. No one starves. No one steals for food. Involvement of churches is a must.
Partnership program for schools with suburban districts. Vouchers (money) for ātuitionā and transport. Partnership programs include working families so inner city kids can live with suburban families during the week and attend school there. Work with the suburban private schools too.
These are tax dollars Iām willing to pay.
Of course, this is all discriminatory. I want to discriminate IN FAVOR of protecting good inner city folks. I noticed that over 70% of Baltimore residents were in favor of police air surveillance while the ACLU says itās discriminatory. That should tell everyone something. The majority of inner city folks arenāt part of the culture. They want safety, security, and the ability to succeed.
These thugs are the enemy. Try to change their hearts and minds, but attack the criminals is they wonāt change. Culture change takes time.
This isnāt perfect. Itās a discussion point. I am just sickened by the violence and the loss of lives that no one values.
Just off the top of my head. I know, impossible. But you asked.
I've also posted this before. I want a high quality police force. Pay officers $120,000 year or whatever is high for an area. Attract better people. It seems simple, but better people make better decisions. The "cop" mentality -- I'm the boss, I'm in control, I have power -- is a high contributor. The cop culture. Personally, I think non-cops should be in charge of cops. Folks that understand the law. Folks that aren't part of the culture.
To change certain elements of the police requires non-police to be in charge. And when the shroud of the cop culture is lifted, the many, many excellent officers will be able to change that culture.
I find it interesting that food and education are the last two steps of your plan. Iām glad they are there but they have to be the top priority.
You start with marriage and church which are great for some people but are not viable solutions for a big block of people. Not believing in god and being a single parent does not make someone a bad person.
I agree Obama could have done more. I think the immense pressure of being the first black president made him shy away from directly taking on problems with racism and an opportunity was missed. Why canāt trump do it? I agree he canāt but I know at least originally you were a big supporter. Has that changed? Or was this not really that important of an issue in 2016?
I strongly disagree with the idea that putting more people of color in prison for longer periods of time is going to somehow fix violence in inner cities. How many people get out of prison after long sentences and are changed for the better? I would argue focusing on the humanity all people, even (Maybe even especially) the ones committing crimes is a better way forward. Iām thinking mental health resources, counseling, job training, community involvement. Iāve met gang members and most join because they are looking for a sense of community and belonging. Find ways to give folks that and direct the energy of young people toward the public good. If you take a charismatic 18 year old and throw him in prison for 30 years, youāve missed an opportunity to foster leadership and change in a community.
As for number 7. As far as I know, inner cities are still part of America even if they do vote blue. I wonder how many of these ideas youād submit to yourself?
Overall, I just fundamentally disagree with most of this āplan.ā A bigger hammer hitting more often is just going to cause more push back and violence. Deescalation is the key and all most of those points are going to do (besides rob people of their freedom) is cause a more violent and angered response. We have to stop thinking about PEOPLE as enemies. People are human beings and Iām always weary of what treating them as anything different does to their humanity as well as that of the enforcers.
@HighEliteMajor Iām going to try real hard to engage in conversation that doesnāt immediately turn you off. I am disagreeing with you but that doesnāt mean itās not dialogue.
Do you honestly believe further militarizing The police and increasing the discriminatory actions of those more militarized police will fix this problem? This is the least logical plan I have ever seen. Those tactics are the exact reason for these protests and your solution is do more of it? Are you listening at all to the people on the streets this week crying out to be heard?
We agree that cop culture is an issue. My brother is a police officer and I noticed changes in the way he thinks and talks after about 3 months. I just donāt understand how a person can see cops on a power trip and then think providing that culture with unlimited resources and power is the way forward. It doesnāt matter how much you pay a person. If you tell them their job is to as you say discriminate every day and give them military style weapons and resources to do so, you are creating power hungry racists. Humans just arenāt capable of the extraordinary level of compartmentalization that would entail.
@approxinfinity said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):
@benshawks08 There's a difference between accepting guilt for something you didn't do and being sympathetic. I'm sympathetic and always have been, but that's because it's who I am. Other people aren't as sympathetic. And that's who they are. You can't force adults to be sympathetic. And it's dangerous to try to. I'm not exhausted for being sympathetic, I pride myself on that. I'm exhausted for being blamed.
Articles entitled "Hey white people" can f right off.
That article mentioned that a disproportionate number of COVID victims were black. Finances will always be at the heart of black-white racial tension in this country. Health insurance, higher education, property, and a chance to pursue the same American dream.
People are quick to dismiss the notion of throwing money at the problem. To me, dismissing pursuing the financial side is a willingness to wallow in self loathing and resentment as a nation rather than attempting to find a way we can move on. As you said, white people need to give up power. Money is power and influence. More and more people of color are taking office. I would say that we are heading on the right track there.
Well all the guilt I have is for things I havenāt done! Slavery wasnāt my fault, I have no guilt for that. However, have I seen dramatic inequality by race and not acted? Yep. Thatās the guilt I have and honestly it doesnāt get me anywhere. Iām not asking people to feel guilt. Iām asking people to take action. Living in guilt is exactly what you said, āwallowing in self loathing.ā
Why is it dangerous to work to get folks to feel? To feel empathy and sympathy enrich my life and if we donāt encourage others to engage those feelings, what the hell are we doing?
Blame is a funny thing. So many people NEED someone to blame in almost every situation. I personally try to not be like that. Instead Iām trying to understand where people are coming from and what is motivating their action or a lack there of. That may not have come across in my recent posts. My biggest issue I think is that for so long racism has been a problem that black people have had to deal with and most white people (especially sympathetic ones like you and me) havenāt. But racism is white peoples problem. We are the one benefiting from systems admittedly we (as in you and I) didnāt create. But to me, if a person isnāt fighting to change those systems right now, then they are part of the problem.
I know you are a sympathetic person and I have a lot of respect for you based on what Iāve read in your posts. I hope you donāt think this exchange is changing that. Itās interesting to me that being called white is so upsetting to you. I wonder who is really wallowing in self loathing here? Iām not ashamed of being white. I have no guilt for being white. I have unearned power due to my race and feel responsible to use that power to make change where I can and give up that power wherever I can to empower voices not as readily heard as mine.
Iām pretty sure I agreed that the financial issue you brought up is a real one and money and power definitely go hand and hand. Iām not dismissing your idea as itās a good one. And I do agree itās the right place to start. Iād be hesitant to connect the reparations to a direct connection to slavery as a big part of slavery was a lack of ancestral tracing due to rape, family separatism etc. And honestly, with my partner being a part of the Potawatomi tribe, the US government doesnāt have a great track record regarding things like blood quantum, ancestral heritage and the like.
@FarmerJayhawk said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):
@benshawks08 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):
@FarmerJayhawk Tell me more about why you think understanding the origins of āwhitenessā and the history of racism is not important work for white people to do. Is racism an issue of importance for you? Are you angered by the actions of the officers in Minneapolis? Iām really just trying to understand where you are coming from and know you have a history of fully explaining your stance. Where are you at in your head right now?
I'm all for reading history and gaining an understanding of the world. However, CRT is the exact wrong lens for anyone to view what is obviously a horrific crime through. A theory that boils people down to their skin color and as one of its tenets says that to be of a particular race, you have to hold a specific set of views, is societal poison. A theory that accepts no dissent, no conversation except on its terms, and if you question it you're obviously mentally defective at best is horrible for society. A theory and worldview that has an anchor of life is all about hierarchies and struggles for power foments those exact things. I've seen it when brought to these conclusions at Evergreen State College and Yale. We've seen it in the press the last couple days with certain segments of the population encouraging the riots and "burn it all (meaning mostly minority-owned businesses) down" in the name of "justice."
I stand with Rep. John Lewis (D-GA) who marched with Dr. King, "Rioting, looting, and burning is not the way. Organize. Demonstrate. Sit-in. Stand-up. Vote. Be constructive, not destructive. History has proven time and again that non-violent, peaceful protest is the way to achieve the justice and equality that we all deserve."
āOur work won't be easy ā nothing worth having ever is ā but I strongly believe, as Dr. King once said, that while the arc of the moral universe is long, it bends toward justice.ā
My focus has been and always will be on equality and equalizing everyone's opportunities in society (i.e. equality instead of equity). Are we there yet? Of course not. But I'm tired of being told this is inadequate and shows my "privilege." I want the boot of the state off the neck of the black community, the brown community, and everyone else. Don't put the weight of the state behind or on top of anyone. Respect all our individuality and rights equally, and follow the liberal ordering of society.
Ok, but if you agree we arenāt at equality yet then that is inadequate, right? How long have we been working towards equality? Iām tired of people doing everything they can to make sure we donāt āgo too far.ā Yes it sucks to be constantly reminded of the privilege we hold as white people but certainly it doesnāt compare to being constantly reminded that you donāt matter as much as people of another race.
The people in power ARE NOT ārespecting all our individuality and rights equallyā and have no intention of giving up that power if they are not forced to do so. To be clear, I think destroying property and āburning it all downā with respect to businesses is wrong. That doesnāt mean I canāt empathize with why people feel the need to do such things. Peaceful protests have happened after every majorly covered instance of police violence and very little has changed. Police are more militarized than ever and the president is advocating the shooting and brutalization of folks out protesting. As far as I know, the penalty for looting is not and should not be death.
Iām tired of white people being tired. Weāve ignored the plight and tacitly accepted inequality for too long. Iām taking action by reading black voices, voting, donating time, donating money, Supporting community events, calling elected officials, VOTING, having tough conversations with my family, and calling out racism whenever and wherever I see it. If these things upset, frustrate, or exhaust white folks, Iām guess Iām ok with that.
@approxinfinity That exhaustion you feel is what black people go through every moment of their life. Itās why we as white people have to do it. Racial disparity still exists no matter a persons finances. If a black person speaks, their voice is automatically racialized. So we as white people have to racialize our voice as well. To not, is to assume that white is the norm and anything else is divergent and different.
I agree itās not fun. Itās exhausting. Itās frustrating. We canāt just buy our way out of our racist past and present. I totally agree that finances are a huge issue but perceptions, thoughts, and emotions canāt be bought. It takes work to shift those. Work that is exhausting and frustrating and in no way simple.
In order for there to be true equality, white people have to give up power. Thatās going to be painful. People on the bottom asking those with it to step back and take a walk in their shoes is never nonsensical. Thatās empathy. And itās the least they can ask for.
@approxinfinity Maybe you werenāt saying what I thought you were with the original shorter post.
@approxinfinity Failing to recognize your own position in society as a white person is one of many reasons racism continues to be one of the biggest problems in America. White people have a responsibility to step up right now and reckon with the disparity the current system has created.
@FarmerJayhawk Tell me more about why you think understanding the origins of āwhitenessā and the history of racism is not important work for white people to do. Is racism an issue of importance for you? Are you angered by the actions of the officers in Minneapolis? Iām really just trying to understand where you are coming from and know you have a history of fully explaining your stance. Where are you at in your head right now?
@FarmerJayhawk So in your opinion, white people learning and seeking understanding of racism, itās origins, and itās current impact is bad? That seems helpful. Glad youāre doing your part.
Hereās a good article for any white folks who are angry, upset, but not sure what to do about it. For people who want to take āpersonal responsibilityā for their role in our society.
@kjayhawks The entire world is grey friend. I work hard everyday to be anti racist. And agree that we all should speak up against racism whenever and wherever we see it. Hopefully my posts on this board reflect that. If not Iām glad to be held accountable for it because I know Iām not perfect and have systematically embedded biases I have not yet overcome. Glad you feel the same.
@kjayhawks They get plenty of flack for it if you listen to the right people.
@kjayhawks So you agree the entire system is messed up? I think Obama was wrong to use that word. Biden was the least of the democratic candidates.
Neither are on the same level as trump. If you canāt see that, you are willfully blind and ignorant.
Read this thread from a KU great:
š¦ View Tweet?s=21
Ask yourself how long it would take to arrest a black man if video evidence even suggested he murdered a police officer. Would it be days? What about all his friends who watched and helped? Would they still be walking free or would they be in custody? The system is broken. Peaceful protests have failed to motivate people in power to fix it. How pissed off were folks when Kaep kneeled? What could be more peaceful. The destruction of property is sad. Hard to watch. Frightening. The state sponsored destruction of life is intolerable. They are not equivalent.
@HighEliteMajor the people in power need to take personal responsibility for the systematic oppression that has caused such vitriolās anger to fester in communities of color all over the country. The Hate U Give. That anger is being stirred by the leader of the country on his twitter account every day. Reports that white supremacists are infiltrating peaceful protests to instigate violence against people of color. It is very clear to me who the āthugsā in this situation are. They carry very big guns and hate in their hearts. Anger is a reaction, hate is a continuous state of being. Take responsibility for your own self, your own actions, your own support of an absolute disgrace of a president before demanding others take responsibility for themselves. Try looking inward just once. Maybe itās too hard because you know you wonāt like what you see.
@benshawks08 Oh cool. His response is āwhen the looting starts, the shooting startsā canāt see what could go wrong there.