Plus, I'm not sure it's as much a suspension as much as just not making it to the final four. K State isn't suspended for the rest of the season, they just didn't play well enough to advance. Same thing here. Miss some calls? Don't fulfill your duties as an alternate? No big bucks and big stage for you.
benshawks08
4625 posts
I'm fine with KSU making the final four as long as KU does too. If they make it and we don't, all that congeniality you felt with those wildcats will evaporate on the spot. We will never hear the end of it. So many videos will be made. Their will be multiple official t-shirts that will be worn to every KSU game by their fans, even when KSU isn't playing KU. Missouri fans will buy them and wear them around for some strange reason. And the signs... Game day will inevitably be in Manhattan next year and all of the signs will say FINAL FOURS SINCE 2018: KSU 1 KU 0 (they won't be smart enough go back to the last time we were in a final four to make the sign better). They will label us chokers. They will say we get all the calls even though so many of us noticed how they got jobbed all game last night.
I'll be happy for them after we win tonight.
@nuleafjhawk Those black shorts with lavender jerseys are THE WORST I've ever seen. Children's YMCA uniforms are better. Baylor's highlighters are better. The white vs. dark shirts guys wear at my pick up game are better. It's astounding that anyone thought those would be a good idea.
Adversity either forces people to come together or separates them further. This team has faced some adversity, some real, some manufactured. I would throw it to @drgnslayr 's theory that a team needs a chip. This team has one. They believe that others doubt them. They are out to prove something. It's interesting because according to brain science, positive reinforcement is the strongest motivator. But individually certain people respond stronger to being told they can't do something. Some of that I think depends on a person's confidence level when hit with the negative feedback. If you have high confidence it is easy to shake of negativity and even use it for motivation. However, if a person's confidence is low, that negativity fits and confirms their personal narrative causing them to dip lower.
I agree about the final fours. VCU and WSU losses hurt the most for me. Those seemed like the years where we should be at 4 instead of 2 total FFs.
I totally agree with Self's words. It's already a great season, but it's going to take 2 wins to make it special and 4 to make it immortal.
Sucks that we would possible run into Villanova in the final 4. As the two one seeds left that would make a better final than semi final. How do people feel about reseeding after the opening weekend. Jon Bois from SB nation had an interesting video breaking down some peculiar stats about the tournament that in my opinion really showed the need for reseeding. His point was the creators of the tournament have the choice between order and chaos and they purposefully choose chaos. In some ways it's what makes March MARCH!@! but it certainly doesn't do the best teams any favors.
If they were to reseed this year:
1 Villanova v 11 Syracuse (last team in)
AND
5 UK vs 5 Clemson
1 KU v 11 Loyala Chi
AND
4 Gonzaga v 5 WVU
2 Duke v 9 KSU
AND
3 Mich v 7 TXA&M
2 Purdue v 9 FSU
AND
3 TX Tech v 7 Nevada
Reseed again in the final 4
Would this be a tougher or easier road? Hard to really say. And everyone has to beat a good team eventually anyway. Just an interesting idea.
Sorry about the formatting. Couldn't figure out a clean way to do it.
Anyone catch self comparing garret to Russ rob? I think we have selfs new favorite player for the next 3 years but Mitch might be not too far behind. I love hearing self talk about Mitch’s attitude. He says it’s always perfect.
@Gunman That isn’t true now?
@HighEliteMajor True they are getting paid fair market value now but it’s mostly under the table through occasional illegal wire transfers to the kids mom or uncle or whatever. Why does that destroy college basketball anymore than what’s happening now? If the university pays the coach that gets kids better, players will still want to go play for that coach. Maybe even more so if that coach can offer more than a fake year or two of “education” that is mostly classes picked because they are easiest to pass. What if colleges created programs specifically designed to further an athlete’s career in sports either through playing, coaching or any other related job? What if the focus was on providing value for the athlete instead of pretending they are just like any other student but being expected to follow rules no other student has to?
What about the NCAA doing away with amateurism rules. Allow the schools to pay whichever athletes they want "fair market value." How is that figured? That's up to the university. These kids are risking their physical health both short and long term to earn billions of dollars for people who wear suits. As a profitable basketball program, KU could likely offer top recruits more money than say Iowa State, or they could use some of that money to go after a quarterback or a rower or a tennis player. Scholarships would be part of the offers. For some kids like Mitch, that might be enough. For others, some additional compensation might make the difference between their hometown school and a blue blood. In reality that is still the case, so why not make it legal as to get the shady people out!
Will problems arise? Yes. Fix them then. Will some schools game the system and cheat? Yes. Punish the school not the kid. Is it fair? No. Nothing really is.
@mayjay Yeah, not sure why asking for a source would be treated with hostility. I get the "another Jaybate theory" isn't particularly kind, but it's far from insulting in my opinion.
@drgnslayr Jst watched a replay of the Texas game and Devonté came up limping pretty early in the first half. He toughed it out and eventually looked fine. But his scoring was way down. I’d think it would be foolish to say this team isn’t at least as worn down as everyone else. Maybe they are just more used to it.
@Buster-1926 My understanding is that the "requirements" are very subjective. There were originally specific awards that had to be won in order to get up there but I'm not sure that's the case anymore. I think it's kinda just up to Self at the moment...
@drgnslayr Speaking of our team leader, DG, did you notice him referencing a chip on his shoulder and one for the whole team this year? I can't remember where I read or heard it. But he definitely brought up that the team felt like people didn't believe they could do it and that put a chip on their shoulders that has motivated them late in the conference season.
@HighEliteMajor I think Self talked about this being a pretty quiet team outside of Devonte. Pretty much why he HAS to be the leader. No one else talks. Hopefully some of the guys redshirted or coming in next year can find a voice pretty quick otherwise it might be all quiet on historic court next year. Devonte came in chattering and smiling. It's just his personality. There are other ways to lead. Frank lead without saying much, but I don't see that yet from Vick. Doesn't mean it's not possible. But it's not in his skill set yet.
If anything, Garret could be the quiet leader just because his effort is so steady. Reliability is a wholly underrated trait of good leadership.
JayHawkFanToo said:
Perhaps this definition fits the incident better:
Involuntary Manslaughter
Involuntary manslaughter is the unlawful killing of another human being without intent. The absence of the intent element is the essential difference between voluntary and involuntary manslaughter. Also in most states, involuntary manslaughter does not result from a heat of passion but from an improper use of reasonable care or skill while in the commission of a lawful act or while in the commission of an unlawful act not amounting to a felony.
I guess I'm confused. Isn't shooting a gun at someone "intent to kill'? Maybe if someone argued the officer was trying to shoot him in the arm or leg in order to stop the vehicle or even fire warning shots to get the driver's attention. However, everything I know about police training (which isn't a whole lot, but isn't nothing) says officers aim center mass when shooting a person as this is the best way to make sure you hit the person and bring them down. It's just not realistic to expect someone to be precise enough in most situations (especially involving a moving vehicle) to aim to injure rather than kill.
To me if you are shooting someone center mass (or even at the head considering the driver would be sitting and that would be about the same level) that is intent to kill.
This is not meant to be argumentative about the situation but instead about the specifics of the law. I genuinely do not understand how this situation could be Involuntary Manslaughter.
@jaybate-1-0 I guess I've missed Doke struggling to handle passes. That's been one of the biggest pros I see from him. Maybe we just have good post feeders? I just haven't seen that many turnovers where the ball goes into Doke and he is unable to secure it. I haven't paid enough attention though to notice if he always catches with one hand or the other. Also, it hurts me every time Doke beats his man down the floor and our guards pull up from 3. He runs sooo hard EVERY time! He did a heck of job conditioning for this year.
@mayjay Thanks for the distinction. I was a little careless with my use of the word defense. It's used as a legal defense for citizens and PR defense for cops. I also live in a stand your ground state so that influences my thinking heavily. I just wish people could engage in nuanced discussion on these issues (which does seem to be happening here).
Guns are a problem, the solution will not and cannot be easy.
Use of force by police is a problem, the solution will not and cannot be easy.
Access to mental health care is a problem, the solution will not and cannot be easy.
It's absolutely horrific how often we see these three problems come together with tragic outcomes and result in things pretty much staying the same.
@drgnslayr Just think. Doke hasn't even developed a jump shot yet. He only shoots hooks and dunks. If he spends the summer working on his form to shoot from the high post or heaven forbid even just face up guys in the low post, his free throws will improve. It's all about muscle memory and all of his attention had been devoted to perfecting that short hook. He's got that pretty much down with the right hand and is coming along with the left. I'd bet he could make +50 percent of his free throws right now if he took hook shots!
@HighEliteMajor In many places police officers do not carry weapons. It could very easily be argued that the unwarranted use of force you see is purely because the officer has that choice. Remove the gun, remove the death of the kid. Without a weapon, the officer would be forced to think primarily about deescalation but since he has a gun, he knows he has the most power in the situation meaning if things escalate, he would likely survive. To be clear, my brother is a police officer and I fear for his life every time I think about him going to work at 8:00 in the evening. But he chose a dangerous job because he wants to help people and be a positive force in the world. Does that means he should die, or have no means of protecting himself? I don't think so. But I'd rather he had more training on interacting with trauma victims than driving fast and jumping through windows.
I would argue we need to review the entire "if someone fears for their life they have the right to kill another person" law we currently adhere to. I get that it's the law and so in many of these cases, charges cannot be brought. Be we intentionally have a system to change laws to best benefit the society. When we consider the massive increase in guns being carried on a regular basis by citizens currently being presented as the solution to crime and violence, the potential for more and more of these situations is going to increase dramatically. It will ALWAYS be IMPOSSIBLE to judge the fear of another person. So trying to determine if someone feared for his/her life before they killed someone is an impossible task and will always be at best a guess. We've seen this legal defense play out for both citizens and officers of all colors and creeds and someone is left mourning the loss of a loved one while nothing changes.
However, even a change in the law won't PREVENT such incidents because punishment does not change behavior and is only ever a reaction. In order to prevent tragedies like these the proactive solution is always training, training, training. It takes time, commitment to change, an open mind, and money. I see very little of any of those things in current agents and policies involved.
@Blown It’s a legitimate complaint. I want to make sure people understand that I think that. It is not, however, evidence of wrong doing. Upon further review I cannot conclude in this instance that there was bias. I will reserve the right to point out and review future possible bias if I think I see it. Even if the discrepancy is 12-11 on free throw attempts.
@drgnslayr I'd go with no and yes. Trae would be a better all around player after playing at KU. It would also have likely delayed his exposure to the lime light and given him more of a chance to mature before having the weight of the world on his shoulders. He'd also have a much stronger supporting cast, get more open looks (which he seems to make regularly) and be on the fist place team in the conference instead of 3 games under 500.
For KU, we are able to avoid answering the age old question of if Bill Self knows how to handle super star freshmen. He's done well for himself in that regard recently with Jackson, Wiggins, and Embiid, but a top recruit riding pine would get some negative headlines and provide a major distraction for a team that has already had some possible chemistry issues. Adding in another 2 egos (Trae and his father) would not be good for this team this year.
@HighEliteMajor Well said. I hope it waits until next year because I'm done losing this year and hopefully the Hawks are too!
@drgnslayr I seem to remember that being a factor and being a big reason KU ended up so low on the list. You'll notice Duke isn't even on the list. It would be easy for someone to argue that teams like KU, Duke, UNC don't top that list simply because they get favored everywhere.
@REHawk Agreed. It's truly sad that it doesn't look like he's having much fun playing the game of basketball right now. And most of that has to do with the position adults have put him in without any regard for how it might affect him.
For added reference, WVU has had 4 games in the last 8 seasons with 7 or less attempts including 3 against Notre Dame at home in 2012 and 5 against UT at a neutral site in 2014. Rare, yes. Unheard of, no. Are we into "next" territory yet?
I think the KU gets all the calls business really only means KU gets the WINS. I saw a stat on here that KU has 300 Big 12 wins and only OU and UT are over 200. That level of inequity in wins can only breed resentment when most of those Ws mean Ls for the rest.
@jaybate-1-0 Did you look at the info from the site I linked? Your 1st question has been answered. It was 2011 vs Iowa St. If my memory serves that would have been a Hoiberg team that shoots lots of 3s. In fact, they shot 32 threes that game.
As for your second, WVU had 12 FTA in Morgantown, making 11 of them (you can infer they likely got the second shot after a 1 and 1 at least once or twice with that %). That would mean the difference between officiating at WVU and at KU was really about 3 shooting fouls. Is it really unreasonable to assume that 3 fouls would be within the normal limits of variation per game?
And for your last question, Carter had to exit the game with 5 fouls. It's pretty common for a guard to hesitate to drive in order to protect himself from charge calls.
I agree that the numbers looked bad and were initially startling but after spending far too much time looking into it, I just don't see anything rotten in any country. Is there a point you are trying to make by simply ignoring the facts people are placing in front of you? Perhaps reinforcing some of what @drgnslayr said. With the president of the US being a known and proud promoter of conspiracy theories, is it really that big of a leap to propose that kind of thinking would find its way into more discussions and areas other than politics?
@StLJhawk I especially liked the one where he got by a guy at the top of the key, drew help, and threw and underhanded pass across his body to the deep corner that landed in perfect position for the shooter to catch and shoot quickly in rhythm. On that one I thought, wow, not just a good find, but so perfectly placed. It was crazy!
@Fightsongwriter One of those got a foul called on DG even! Another consequence of the hype. He's a star so he gets calls. It's an unfortunate result of human nature.
The answer is 1 since 2010. Don't have the time or resources to go back to 1957. Iowa State in 2011.
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/play-index/tgl_finder.cgi?request=1&player=&match=game&year_min=2011&year_max=2018&school_id=&opp_id=&game_type=A&is_range=N&best_of=&game_num_type=&game_num_min=&game_num_max=&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&is_overtime=&comp_schl_rk=eq&comp_opp_rk=eq&val_schl_rk=ANY&val_opp_rk=ANY&c1stat=fta&c1comp=lt&c1val=2&c2stat=&c2comp=&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=&c4val=&order_by=pts&order_by_asc=&offset=0 ↗
@BShark You're telling me, Self would have left or even put a freshman point guard in the game after missing a layup on one end and casually jogging back on D giving up an easy dunk?
I also said, "The more likely scenario if Young came to KU would be he’d be forced to improve his D, at least some, and then get 25-30 minutes a game."
So yeah, Self isn't crazy. But he does have standards that the current version of Trae just doesn't meet. I also have very little ill will toward Young. Other than the fact that he picked another school over KU and said he wanted to be the one to knock KU off the top (neither of which are that bad), I have no reason to dislike him. I have major problems with the coverage he gets and I think we can all see that has turned out bad for everyone involved (except the people that pulled in all the money by mentioning his name over and over and over again in order to attract viewers).
It's hard to say if Young made the right choice. Honestly, he'd likely be getting Cunliffe like minutes at KU because of his D. That is just what you get with Self. Would he be willing to waste possibly the best offensive player on his team buried on the bench because he didn't buy in on D? Does anyone doubt the answer to that question? The more likely scenario if Young came to KU would be he'd be forced to improve his D, at least some, and then get 25-30 minutes a game, let DG get some rest, and get pulled EVERY TIME he chucked one of those deep threes early in the shot clock without passing the ball with a hand in his face. He wouldn't be averaging 28 and 9, he wouldn't be anywhere near a lottery pick conversation.
But he might be feeling a little better about himself and his team than he is right now.
A quick review of that data shows it's even happened at Allen before in 2011. Also, high 3pt attempts seems to be a fairly common factor (though not every time) between games like this.
Even better:
2 or fewer FTA has happened 169 times since 2010. So if one is willing to accept that KU's 35 FTA are simply a result of WVU's style of D, and are simply concerned with the low number of FTA for WVU, there is enormous evidence that such a stat is not out of the realm of possibility.
Check this out. Apparently just like KU, Austin Peay always gets the calls!
Also, 5 times in 8 years makes the concept unusual, but not unheard of.
@HighEliteMajor Unfortunately I think Devonte has become a crutch. He builds the confidence of the other guys when he's out there. Sure they COULD run the stuff, but it just wouldn't look right or feel right (at least that was my very subjective observation how ever long ago it was that he sat!). There was a comment from Malik in the post game that might get at this a little bit. He said something like, "it was good to carry Devonte for bit since he's been carrying us for so long." I'm hoping that comment is showing some humility about how much they've really relied on him so far and maybe give the rest of the team some confidence they can do it without him (if only for a few minutes or an off shooting night).
I feel like Vick having some success is a definite positive for this team that could prove big for this team. That would take KU back to having 5 legitimate threats to score. You can then sub in Mitch or Garrett and still have 4 spots you can score from on the floor. As I'm pretty sure @HighEliteMajor has stated, this is a team that can win a title if we get hot. This game was a reminder to everyone (including himself) that Vick is one of those guys that can get hot and change a game.
Good:
KU won a game when shots from Graham and Svi weren't falling!
KU wins on the road where other teams have struggled.
Vick found his stroke for a half and pushed KU to the lead.
Malik shows effort and contributes all over the floor.
Doke scored almost at will in the post and made a free throw!
KU limited turnovers and got more possessions than the opponent leading to more points.
Bad:
KU only beat the worst team in the league by 6.
KU still shot below average from 3 (mostly thanks to Devonte and Svi).
KU was out-rebounded...again.
5 fouls for Newman (this isn't actually all that bad in my opinion, shows activity, intensity on defense, bad luck).
Tech handles OU at home and stays a game up on KU in the standings.
Ugly:
Doke ends the game with 3 (count them 1, 2, 3) rebounds.
Lightfoot not to be outdone snags just 2.
The real reason we won might actually be due to ISU going cold.
ISU shot 19% from 3 and we still only won by 6.
ISU turned it over more than KU and we still only won by 6.
@mayjay Simple formula! Score more points than the other guys.
@Buster-1926 It happened during the game. Looked like there was a scrum and he got hit across the nose. Nothing malicious, just bad luck.
This gets back to the point @drgnslayr made a few weeks ago. Hotness and coldness. If one team is hot and the other is cold from 3, the cold team WILL LOSE. Teams have just figured out that riding hot trey shooting will win games. Any time you get above 45% on more than about 15 attempts, it's game over. Research shows the only way to slow a hot shooting team is to keep them from shooting. Defense has VERY LITTLE statistical impact on 3 pt %.
On the other end, if you are shooting cold most people say just keep shooting and eventually you'll shoot back to your average. Bill self generally subscribes to this law of averages approach. I honestly do not know if this is true or not. If you're best shooter just got a black eye, he might just be cold that day.
But it is clear that the college game is increasingly about who shoots well that game. It's the exact reason why this team has a shot at a national title. They are good shooters and if they get hot, they WILL win games.
Chip building time. This team is down. It's up to them now to decide if they flame out or bounce back. Hilton provides the perfect opportunity for these guys to do what many are thinking they can't. Fans are giving up on 14, conceding that we will have a 4 seed or lower and bow out early, heck they may not win another game! These guys said they thrived on doubt. They wanted to prove everyone wrong at WVU. Now is the time to do it again.
Style of play is the biggest culprit in disproportionate calls. Think West Virginia. They play pressure all the time. Refs simply can't call every foul that happens during a WVU game so eventually they stop trying. Being the more aggressive team is always going to be more beneficial. Drive the ball, get more calls. Play tight defense all the time, get more benefit of the doubt on D. Same goes for shot blockers. Try to block everything, refs will see you as more likely to have stayed vertical (Doke has actually done a fairly good job in this area). Traditionally good teams with seasoned coaches with high win percentages do these things so seemingly get more calls. It's all about setting the standard for refs early and relying on that standard late. Doesn't always work. Sometimes WVU will get a ref that calls it tight, especially early, and WVU is in trouble early. Then the game becomes about adjusting the the officials rather than adjusting them to your style of play. That usually spells a loss if all else is equal.
@drgnslayr Jesse often writes about the real 3pt defense is more about limiting opportunities. I think he got this from Kenpom but I can't remember. Thinking about it that way, the way to win in those "trey hotness" games is to simply limit the attempts. 7-10 is better for a defense than 12-20 even with the percentage drop on more attempts. I would argue there is also some merit in the defense being able to control WHO takes the treys and WHERE they take them from. Teams show this against KU all the time, daring Garrett to shoot the long ball, trying (and usually failing) to keep Svi from his favorite corner. This could also lead into some of KU's Big 12 success v. March results. Self and co. know the rest of the league so well, both the sets and the personnel, we end up getting better results than average in league.
Actually, just skip what I posted and read @drgnslayr again. Didn't see it before I hit reply!
@jaybate-1-0 What about Self showcasing DG by giving him 40 a night? It's clear there's no way anyone is going to steal any bit of shine from T. Young by scoring and dishing so all Self can do to spotlight his senior guard (who many hoped would let Kansas have repeat POY) is let him go Iron Man and get press that way. Sure it does hurt DG's efficiency but it doesn't seem to have too big of impact on the teams efficiency. Probably too big of a risk to for a few seconds of spotlights a night but surely Self and co are as tired of all the Young coverage as we are. Without Billy we have no sexy one and done, Doke needs a few more games removed from the OU debacle before they put the brights back on him.
Could also just be about defense (as it usually is with Self). DG seems to be the guy who knows the scouting report best every week. He's the guy most likely to "cut the head off the snake" as Self used to say. He directs traffic on the defensive end not just among the guards but the bigs too. This team simply doesn't have another leader. Self will not sit back and watch easy buckets get scored on his team. He'll stomach some turnovers, the occasional bad shot, but never a defensive breakdown. It's why he just can't keep DeSousa out there even though he has said in pressers that he wants and needs to.
The only problem is that past experience has shown us that the lead shrinks every time DG goes to the bench. EVERY time. So a 12-16 point lead goes to nothing real fast and all the sudden the intensity of the game goes up as well as the likelihood of a loss. I'd rather DG play 40 with a double digit lead than 38 in a 1 possession game that'g going back and forth. He's on the floor resting for some of those 40. Malik has been bringing the ball up, SVI has been driving it out of the weave, Vick has been trying to shoot more, and DG just has to be everyone's security blanket. Unfortunately the entire team plays more confidently when he's on the floor so those few minutes of rest actually hurt the production of the rest of the guys. I do think we will get to the point where DG can rest a bit. Malik has been coming on strong and if he can turn into the second guard (DG last year), DG might get a breather without too many adverse effects. Maybe then his production will go back up as well.
@dylans they call it the dot and 4. Much more prevalent than the line and 3.
@justanotherfan It reminded me of a college hoops video game I used to play on x-box (the original). In that game you could play zone and basically force the ball wherever you wanted by applying pressure then either let the hapless scorer shoot from deep or trap to cause a turnover. KSU looked every bit as bad at times as the primitive AI. In the dynasty mode you could just recruit 6-5 to 6-10 SFs and play em anywhere.
Inspirational DVD documenting the journey to be released by the end of the week.