Yup. But we can bring Vick or Josh to the 2 guard slot for as long as necessary and see how they like shooting over 6-5 and 6-7!
Doug is an eye ball whore now.
jaybate 1.0
10346 posts
Its clear Bill is feeling the pinch he is in and eating to help him think. :pizza:
I don't blame him either.
He has dodged more knives and bullets than a circus assistant to a NAVY SEAL that started an Ringling Brothers act under the Big Top.
I mean the cat has 10 lives, not 9.
And I for one can vouch for how much you can lose on your fast ball in your 50s.
Still, I am pulling for the greatest coach I have ever had the good fortune to watch and study this closely this long.
Go, Bill, go!!
It is odd and unfortunate that Big Man U finds itself in the position of Little Man U, even in a season when Self seemed to break the ice some and sign some bigs.
Having a team full of trey ballers can ease the impact of becoming a Little Man U.
This year, however, we are getting the full sense of what it means not to have functioning big men.
Landen was plenty good down the stretch. If we had that Landen now, I would not be opining on this.
Azuibuke looks like a project due to come on line next season, or the season after.
Lightfoot would be a solid prospect at the 3, or against light 4s, next year, but he is another light cruiser being asked to play heavy cruiser/fast battle ship and it will look fine until he has to face the Top Ten teams with the battle wagons and carriers.
Bragg is kind of hard to figure. I wasn't expecting him to be even a second team all-league this season, so he is not a victim of over expectation from me. But I was expecting him to at least be able to start and play a garbage man 4 for 20 minutes without much drama; kind of like LaGerrie Vick is quietly getting it done on the perimeter in a narrowly scoped way. I know I am among the first to make the excuse for him that he is trying to learn to play in a new body, BUT...that really doesn't seem to capture his problems so far.
I love our two guards--Frank and Devonte--of course, and Josh, Svi and LaGerrie are getting it done, and will only get better, BUT...those five are about the least intimidating personalities one can find.
Imagine being a Michigan State perimeter guy and bringing it up the floor against anyone of our guys to try to score a basket. Frank and Devonte are very good, but you don't fear they will take your head off.
Imagine seeing Josh and LaGerrie. You would have to look closely to even see Vick. And Josh only looks muscular standing next to Vick. Again, they aren't the types to strike fear in your heart when you are offending.
Svi is a bit of a choir boy look, but I hold out some hope for him. He is at least thick now. And he likes to mix it up. If it were up to me, I would be trying to get Svi 15 FGAs a game and hang my hat on him. He's the only one of our guys that might be diversified enough in offensive talent, and hard nosed enough with enough thickness on defense, not to get manhandled sooner or later.
But right now, it looks like this is team increasingly looks like three yards and a cloud of Frank.
I was really hoping for more "team" interplay and more Frank, Devonte and Josh/Svi rocketing up the floor most possessions.
LOL!
Its just a sore foot.
Its just cramping.
Its just a funk.
What do you want to bet that Bill Self looks carefully at his pay check and doesn't say: its just a pay check?
What do you want to bet that Bill Self doesn't just throw on any suit, shirt and tie lying on the floor of his closet for a game; that he doesn't say: its just a suit for a game.
What do you want to bet he doesn't just look in the mirror and say; its just hair.
Bill Self appears to be meticulous...about most everything.
I have a feeling that we are not getting the full story on any of these issues: sore foot, cramping, and funking.
Yes I definitely disagree and am happy to let time and games resolve the difference
Like Agent Mulder, I want to believe…
Actually it is quite irrelevant. Don't mean to argue. Just find your argument unpersuasive.
@JayHawkFanToo said:
Bragg is on a “funk” as Coach Self indicated and has been widely reported and his lack of performance is not due to injury but just not being in the right place at the right time
Self has misinformed in the past, when doing so was for team benefit, so the above just begs the question. It doesn't answer it at all. Is he misinforming about the "funk"?
Remember TRob?
Yes, he makes a poor analogy. TRob was more inept as a freshman than Bragg, and he was not asked to start or play big minutes his sophomore year, but rather be a third big man enforcer for the two stores: Marcos and Kieff. Bragg was at one time expected to be a starter at 4. But something happened to Bragg. Self calls it a funk, but counter intuitively Self appears to have committed to a 4-guard line up. Hmmm. A funk is kind of hard to define. Why would a funk make elevating for jump shots and rebounds particularly difficult? Hmmm.
"Have you considered that not having Perry Ellis and playing with a very green Bragg has contributed to his sub par performances? "
Yes, and because that does not explain his poor rebounding numbers I marked it irrelevant, same as you should.
Josh played the way many OADs do in their first game against good D1 competition. The lack of driving suggests possible injury, but the 3 position role has long been a tough one for some of KU's best talent to find the sweet spot of. Previous OAD 3s have struggled with "waiting for the game to come to them." They get too passive. Others start out trying to do too much. Still others struggle with not being the most dominant and skilled person on the floor for the first time.
I don't have doubts about Josh being very good and making a big contribution. But it will take a month or two to find the sweet spot.
Also, just because he goes 7-11 the next game, instead of 3-11, does not mean he will have found it. Making shots comes and goes. It's mostly his floor game that he needs to find his way on; that's what will take a few games.
But the guy is a terrific young athlete, so barring injury, he will settle in in a few games.
He is already good enough to make it a 1-point game against a good Hoosier team.
His trey balling, or possible lack there of, is what I have been calling board rats' attentions to from the moment he was signed. The logic distills to this:
If strong Trey ball, then open driving lanes for great athleticism to exploit.
If weak Trey ball, then closed driving lanes even Great athleticism cannot exploit.
The video of Josh the first three games will make opposing coaches scheme to give him the Trey and close the driving lanes.
If he can make the Trey, then he will make them pay and shortly those lanes will open.
If he cannot, he and we are in for one of those seasons of intermittent great physical prowess but not high scoring efficiency, unless he holds his FGAs to 7-8.
Really measured, articulate and sensible take.
Recall the last two seasons especially that Self has tried to build leads with treys and transition, and defend leads "running the stuff" or Bad Balling. This seems to be what he is trying this season, too.
"...when a player does not play well, you can’t always assume "he’s injured..."
I don't recall anyone in this thread ever assuming that weak performance is "always" the result of injury. I know I never discuss injury and lack of performance in those terms. So far, you are the only one I recall to suggest it, and then you reject it; that appears a straw argument of sorts.
We are looking for likely explanations of 3 consecutive games of apparent underperformance and I have hypothesized a number of likely drivers, including, but not limited to, under- and un-reported injury, converging to produce the phenomenon.
Where did you get the idea that anyone else believes injury "always" causes reduced performance?
Rock Chalk!
One of the problems starting an OAD early is he can only learn so much of the offense and defense schemes.
Self looked like he was keeping it a 10 page playbook and Josh was struggling with that!
The 4-1 looked pretty good last season when a lot of guys could make treys.
But I agree. I'm not sure how the 4-1 is supposed to work with Josh on a wing where he's not a threat. It's like moving Kevin Young outside.
Copy and paste.
Talk of possibly under- and un- reported injuries comes from:
--DG grabbing an unreported hamstring, in addition to whatever cramping may have been reported;
--saying Lucas has just a "sore foot" despite wearing a boot off the floor and some kind of apparatus in the last game that makes his shoe bulge while he favors that side and underperforms for 3 straight games including two D-II teams;
--Bragg getting few rebounds in three games and taking few jump shots and getting few dunks or blocks suggesting an unreported injury is keeping him from getting up;
--the best recruit in the country going 3-11 and only occasionally being able to get up; and
--Coleby going from a few minutes vs. D-II team's to no minutes vs a big IU team we got in foul trouble against and were facing with a gimpy Lucas and so could have used at least the same few minutes Coleby gave previously.
I didn't watch Vick, so not sure on him.
Regardless, when Tyler starts playing in a close game one wonders about injuries to other perimeter guys.
There are many killer app strategies and tactics waiting for players with the right skill sets.
Bragg might get there next year, but agree he is not there now.
Unreported injuries + heavy reliance on OAD early = what we saw
P.S.: Self, as he ages, is increasingly attracted to any tactic that makes opposing coaches prepare for more possibilities. The "stretch 4" is quintessential. Now he loves the "ubiquitous 3"--the 3 who might show up anywhere from 1 to 5. It's not just Josh. He has been experimenting since BRush with the ubiquitous 3, but he hasn't found guys that could do more than swing 3-4, or 2-3. Swinging 2-3 really doesn't help, since both are just wing positions. He wants to swing inside and out; that is what really stresses a defensive scheme and complicates preparation. I reckon he likes stressing opposing coaches with multiple offense, because he now has the edge over most in experience AND he knows how many 2 in 3 and 3 in six situations arise.
You have made a sound argument explaining Self returning to Bad Ball in the 4-1 set: scoring efficiency plus fouling up opponents never goes out of style.
And effectively no team has been able to run consistently for high percentage transition baskets (i.e., transition being bread and butter), since high contact basketball was allowed to proliferate after Roy's last KU team.
Self may be anticipating rule changes will favor transition scoring, but as he showed vs IU, when the chips are down, he resorts to BAD BALL.
Forecast?
Self wants to:
get leads with transition with SMALL BALL;
foul up with BAD BALL if he can't transition;
defend leads with BIG BALL; and
play from behind with BAD BALL.
It's what he has been evolving toward for two previous seasons.
It's his contemporary adaptation of Dean Smith's MULTIPLE OFFENSE.
I wrote about this at length last season.
But under and unreported injuries appear to be seriously cramping his plan this season.
You are both onto some things.
Self had to work on this 4 guard thing sometime, because:
a.) we will play small teams and need to be able to go small, because of bigs that may not be able to hedge to 20 feet;
b.) our bigs are injured and other than Lucas in embryonic stages;
c.) Self wants to create video of Josh showing up everywhere ASAP to force opposing coaches to prepare; and
d.) until (if) Colelby can play, KU doesn't have enough developed bigs to go big and stay big for 40 minutes, so KU has to learn to play small regardless.
He is also getting on with all the above from the start, because this bunch minimizes TOs and fouling while learning new rules.
Notice KU "only" had 38 fouls compared to IU's 50.
Self guessed right and almost stole one from Crean, who has probably the best big man in the country in Bryant.
Healing from injuries after Duke is paramount.
But Duke is another "play through" game.
P.S.: Bragg, like all. bigs, always wanted to be a stretch 4 and his harried unsettled play explains why there aren't many doing it successfully: it is two positions at the same time. Bragg will get it over time. For now it is: be careful what you wish for.
Thanks for taking the time to was us up on this move. Really glad to hear that the Diallo still has a chance
Self is at his best, when his most cherished "who we are" habits are denied him. He resists furiously, but when he has to change he changes in brilliantly unexpected ways. I call them hat rabbits.
Let's see if he's got another in the top hat!
Copy and paste.
I agree, but here is the problem facing both of us.
Self and Crean had them running and fouling.
It was a 103-99 game!
Take away the OT and it was STILL a high trip count. Part of that was fouling and part of it was the hurry up of both offenses. But really, IU fouled us 12 fewer times, so our high scoring definitely stemmed from hurry up.
So the problem is not running, it is the way KU gets shots for Josh on the run, and the terrible team defense Josh (and some others) play on the run.
Let's hope Josh only takes a few games to get comfy with the speed and physicality of D1 and learns off-ball help defence.
Dos mas cosas...
Be ready for 0-2 tonight if Self is concealing lots of injuries.
This team defense and rebounding thing will take some time to fix.
And it appears we haven't got a single explosive defender on this team...no Jam Tray...blocking, even a little, is NOT us.
Self defense has always hinged on great team defense that disrupts with steals or blocks. Last year's team disrupted less than usual, but it had players that did occasionally explode out of position and disrupt.
No sign of that last night. None!
Self is going to have to do another incredible coaching job this season.
He is going to have to innovate again.
The apparent recruiting embargo requires it yet again.
And hope he catches a break on injuries.
It's hard to say, because Self appears to be concealing a lot of injuries.
We can't really know how much of Lucas' "sore foot" was the problem and how much it was rules changes and catching IU on a hot night.
We know Frank and Devonte never both used to foul out, so maybe it was rules. But it sure looked like Devonte grabbed his hamstring middle of the game and was never the same after.
Is this really Bragg at this weight under these rules, or does he have a hand injury that is keeping him from shooting his jumper?
Beyond injury, there is the heavy reliance on JJ, who hasn't figured out team defense and how to help one and two passes away and the necessity of playing Doke who struggles with hedge decisions.
The logical take away is that what we saw was a good team caught up in the interplay of rule changes, injuries and new players that haven't figured out how to play team defense without breakdowns creating easy baskets.
Taken all together, KU HAS TO BE PRETTY GOOD TO TAKE ANOTHER GOOD TEAM TO A LAST SECOND IN OVERTIME WITH ALL THE INTERACTING PROBLEMS I HAVE MENTIONED.
If the injuries are few and shorter duration than appears, they will tighten up team defense shortly, get the hang of new rules, shoot better, and beat a team like IU, if Self can find away to teach them to rebound.
But stress reactions and hamstrings are long lasting injuries and we can't be sure who else is in trouble healthwise.
This team has one more problem: no bad strong man that throws fear in the opponents' minds.
We learned last night that Josh is a tough nut, but he just isn't strong enough and intimidating enough to enforce.
Landon isn't either--not yet.
Not against D1 muscle ballers.
Put it this way: Bob Huggins now believes he can intimidate his way to a B12 title.
KU is a very athletic and talented team that can score.
But right now it faces the lot of a 98 pound weakling at muscle beach, unless Lucas/Doke/Coleby man-up and muscle.
Josh Jackson will intimidate the team's with little talent and no muscle. He will be far more aggressive than most guys his size. But by the end of a game of Big 10 bang Ball, he was just another skinny guy with hops.
Self has a problem.
How do you become a team of little tigers? How do little men rebound with big men--with last year's brawny Nova guys say?
Wooden figured it out in 1963.
He ran, and pressed, drove it, shot over it with one great shot, and fought for rebounding position at all costs. In short he tried to fatigue every big opponent. He tried to make cowards of them with fatigue.
KU has the right talent to play this way if it can find its mad 6-5 Freddie Slaughter at the post, or get its big men healthy and stay big and mean.
KU will probably look much better against Duke, because Duke is NOT big and brawny like IU.
But unless KU gets healthy and gets in better running condition, or stays big inside, any good Big 10 team will likely clock us.
That quintet had the smallest average leg diameter of any KU team ever!
THE MONOFILAMENT MEN !
Are we as good as our hype? No.
Are we a good team? Yes. We were as nicked up for a first game, as I recall, and played a strong, talented team to an OT and could easily have won, despite not playing very well.
Can Josh Jackson Step in and Replace Wayne Selden? Not yet. Wayne averaged about 14 efficient ppg and 3.4 rpg and shot 39% from trey. Josh was 3-11 over all and 1-3 from trey for an inefficient 9 points. His on ball defense was solid, but his off-ball defense caused many breakdowns in the team defense. He can grab boards better than Wayne. He got 6 against an IU team with a lot of glass masters. Of course, in Josh's defense, Wayne was notorious for yo-yo-ing and he could easily have had the same numbers, or even worse than Josh had tonight. But Wayne could also have hung 30 on Indiana. Josh is going to be a very good player. But like so many OADs, he has lots of holes in his game that a likely Top 20, or Top 10 team like indiana expose. One the season, Josh will have some huge games against .500 teams, but it seems unlikely that he is going to hang 30 points on a Top Ten team this seaons. He just has to much to work on.D1 teams are going to look at tonight's shooting performance and say, "We're hanging off you and going to let you beat us from outside, and when you come inside we are going to really get rough with you. Self also has a problem he has had before with the 3 man in Self offenses. If Self has a good point guard that can score, there is a tendency to turn into a garbage man role. Josh seems to good to be a garbage man, but the holes in his game do not seem like they enable him to do much else, if Self is going to rely on Frank and Devonte, as he apparently will.
Can Bragg replace Perry Ellis this season? No. Bragg got 12 efficient points and 4 rebounds with only one TO. His defense was not nearly as good as Perry's. He did his numbers against the kind of big team that Perry used to disappear against, unless he was hitting his trey. Bragg did it all without his trey, which he reputedly has. There is a chance by mid season that Bragg could replace Perry AND not disappear against the big strong teams. But Bragg's defense is going to take a lot of work, and things could get very tough for him for a month or so in mid season, also, when the Big 12 coaches start scheming against the holes in his game. Let's say its 50/50 on replacing Perry this season. Next season? Bragg could be very tough by then.
Can Frank and Devonte truly be a complementary back court? It does not seem so yet. Frank is fabulous, when you turn it over to him, but he still does not make other players around him better doing it. They might as well clear out the side for him. And Devonte is ready to take over a team and drive it and yet he cannot do that with Frank. Self still has not found a way to actually make these two like a great guard combination. They take turns being dominating point guards. They don't do it together.
Is this the year Svi super novas? Svi seems ready in every way but two: he needs to run and does so rather infrequently, and he needs to shoot the trey and he only does that infrequently. KU is really not a running team and Svi needs a running team to really break out. KU is still a half court team t6hat squirts some. KU is also not a trey balling team. KU is a short half court team that plays Bad Ball when it needs baskets. It doesn't let her fly from 25 much. So Svi, who looks completely matured and skilled, is kind o being a garbage man 3, because of the way the team plays.
Can Udoka Contribute this Year:: He is better than I expected and if he had any money moves he would be a handful for opponents right now, even only playing about 15 mpg. But 15 mpg seems about average for this season.
Is Coleby going to be a factor? Maybe in a couple months, when has heeled, but maybe not.
All for now.
Gotta do the sand man thing.
Here's to some work on footwork and positioning on defense and rebounding.
And to getting healthy.
Rock Chalk.
Good for Joel.
Yeah, I'm not trying to rag on Josh here. I'm just trying to analyse the break downs. A lot of times he just wasn't remembering proper position one and two passes away. In Self defense, you have to be able to play on ball AND help one and two passes away. Josh is a fine on ball defender 90 percent of the time; that's not the issue. The problem is his foot positioning when the ball is away. But this was his first game, and he clearly had to experience this kind of play and talent and strength, before he could begin adjusting to it. He will over the next few weeks.
That's a good point.
We played well enough to win.
Not our best, but well enough.
We're a good team.
We just have some injury issues and Josh has to figure out how to position on defense one and two passes away.
And Self has to go to the drawing board on rebounding. Its not that we are a bad rebounding team. Indiana is a good rebounding team, so we have nothing to be ashamed of. But if we are going to play this small, our small guys have to really by into positioning most of the time, and climbing up the backs of people, when they can't get position.
Rebounding is going to be a problem for this team. Our best rebounder is our point guard.
Landen WAS a good rebounder, but now he seems to be injured and not likely to pull down big numbers against most teams, until his foot heals.
Bragg apparently lacks the rebounding gene. He's big enough and strong enough now, but he just doesn't get tot he ball.
Our perimeter guys are athletic and tall, but none of them but Frank has the rebounding gene...not even Josh. Josh gets some caroms because he is so springy, but he doesn't have a clue about how to get rebounding position against D1 players.
This will be really interesting to watch how Self deals with this issue.
I suspect we will see some very serious rebounding drills for a few weeks to see if there can be any improvement.
But what he might do if there isn't, wow, it is hat rabbit time again.
So, I asked awhile back in the thread if anyone knew what became of @HighEliteMajor ?
It was OT, so maybe everyone was too busy.
Anyone have any idea what became of HEM?
Yeah, Devonte is going to have to get back up on that edge again.
But it will be harder, because they are scheming on him, now. Last year he was the third option behind Perry and Frank. Now he is second option, maybe even first if he gets untracked. It will take a few games for him to get used to the increased attention. But he should adjust, unless he too is playing with unreported injuries, which it sure looks like. But I'm withholding judgement since folks said he was just battling cramps.
I really think Svi kind of did not step up and take the shots he needed to at the end. He's got to stay a threat all the time for this team. Frank was great, but Frank needed to get Svi into the game.
Man that stings.
Tyler?
It was bad that he got faked out, but he made a smart foul.
Was that Vick staying with the dribbler before the trap
Super nice trap.
Anyone see if Bill is on his cell phone? Larry's probably texting him a play.
This is where its good to know we have Bill Self in our huddle.
Speak of the green sapling devil.
I know he's struggled, but he's played all the way and we're in it against a good team in OT.
Josh is getting a real baptism in KU ball
Really nice play by Josh