🏀 KuBuckets Archive

Are we as good as our hype? No.

Are we a good team? Yes. We were as nicked up for a first game, as I recall, and played a strong, talented team to an OT and could easily have won, despite not playing very well.

Can Josh Jackson Step in and Replace Wayne Selden? Not yet. Wayne averaged about 14 efficient ppg and 3.4 rpg and shot 39% from trey. Josh was 3-11 over all and 1-3 from trey for an inefficient 9 points. His on ball defense was solid, but his off-ball defense caused many breakdowns in the team defense. He can grab boards better than Wayne. He got 6 against an IU team with a lot of glass masters. Of course, in Josh's defense, Wayne was notorious for yo-yo-ing and he could easily have had the same numbers, or even worse than Josh had tonight. But Wayne could also have hung 30 on Indiana. Josh is going to be a very good player. But like so many OADs, he has lots of holes in his game that a likely Top 20, or Top 10 team like indiana expose. One the season, Josh will have some huge games against .500 teams, but it seems unlikely that he is going to hang 30 points on a Top Ten team this seaons. He just has to much to work on.D1 teams are going to look at tonight's shooting performance and say, "We're hanging off you and going to let you beat us from outside, and when you come inside we are going to really get rough with you. Self also has a problem he has had before with the 3 man in Self offenses. If Self has a good point guard that can score, there is a tendency to turn into a garbage man role. Josh seems to good to be a garbage man, but the holes in his game do not seem like they enable him to do much else, if Self is going to rely on Frank and Devonte, as he apparently will.

Can Bragg replace Perry Ellis this season? No. Bragg got 12 efficient points and 4 rebounds with only one TO. His defense was not nearly as good as Perry's. He did his numbers against the kind of big team that Perry used to disappear against, unless he was hitting his trey. Bragg did it all without his trey, which he reputedly has. There is a chance by mid season that Bragg could replace Perry AND not disappear against the big strong teams. But Bragg's defense is going to take a lot of work, and things could get very tough for him for a month or so in mid season, also, when the Big 12 coaches start scheming against the holes in his game. Let's say its 50/50 on replacing Perry this season. Next season? Bragg could be very tough by then.

Can Frank and Devonte truly be a complementary back court? It does not seem so yet. Frank is fabulous, when you turn it over to him, but he still does not make other players around him better doing it. They might as well clear out the side for him. And Devonte is ready to take over a team and drive it and yet he cannot do that with Frank. Self still has not found a way to actually make these two like a great guard combination. They take turns being dominating point guards. They don't do it together.

Is this the year Svi super novas? Svi seems ready in every way but two: he needs to run and does so rather infrequently, and he needs to shoot the trey and he only does that infrequently. KU is really not a running team and Svi needs a running team to really break out. KU is still a half court team t6hat squirts some. KU is also not a trey balling team. KU is a short half court team that plays Bad Ball when it needs baskets. It doesn't let her fly from 25 much. So Svi, who looks completely matured and skilled, is kind o being a garbage man 3, because of the way the team plays.

Can Udoka Contribute this Year:: He is better than I expected and if he had any money moves he would be a handful for opponents right now, even only playing about 15 mpg. But 15 mpg seems about average for this season.

Is Coleby going to be a factor? Maybe in a couple months, when has heeled, but maybe not.

All for now.

@jaybate-1.0 after these first few games, it is clear we should all temper our expectations heavily like in 2011-2012. There are kinks that I assumed would be fixed by now but arent, which gives this team an outside chance at a final four. I think there can be improvements throughout the year, but until guys start taking it personally when they get beat on the glass, the numbers won't improve. Hopefully Bragg will decide to stay for his junior year. Devonte could windup staying also. Josh will go because of "potential".

Having some losses is not a bad thing. Michigan was highly ranked to start the year in 2012-13, wound up with seven losses, a four seed yet made a run in the tourney. This team could do something similar to that once the pieces fit and everyone focuses on improving the weaknesses.

@HawkChamp Couldn't agree more. I have completely changed my expectations for the team in this year's tourney. We may need to explore a Jackson, Vick, Graham, Mason and other various exotic lineups. Take some more losses in service of development. Perhaps we need to let Azubuike play until he fouls out every game.

Most importantly, we need other players aside from our guards to step up defensively and create for this team. Indiana has tons of guys who can create their own shot. Similarly, we need more of our guys to affect the flow of the game in their own way, otherwise there is simply too much pressure on our guards. Vick and Jackson should be averaging two steals a game between the two of them. And I'm talking about actual, created steals, not mop up slop. 2o11-2012 was a team that was great at stealing and blocking the ball. Since we're still not good at either of those things, and we're worse off scoring-wise without Perry and Wayne, where does that leave us?

@HawkChamp
I know it's very early, but Bragg does not look ready for the next level at all. I know it's been a popular notion to throw his name out there for departure after this year, and he supposedly was tossing the idea around last year (more media hype than anything I think), but he needs to get much tougher and doesn't do anything one thing, great. Perry was an average rebounder, but his offensive skill set was stellar. I know the NBA is trending towards smaller players, but Bragg is even small by their standards. He needs to get better across the board, IMO. Sorry for the rambling, but that is my basic point. Carlton needs to work on many facets of his game to improve from good to great at something before he can toy w the idea of jumping to the next level. Is there anything, now, that he does extremely well? Pass maybe?

Never seen a Coach Self team get beat so badly on the boards. I worry this becomes the Frank show. The Frank show is great, but it only stars one person...Frank.

R-E-L-A-X! This is why so many teams including Kansas most years play easy games to start the season out. This was a tough game right out the gate. We lost to a team that was shooting lights out from three, nearly 50%. They got on the glass out rebounding us by 11. We have heart. We fought back and we could have just as easily lost this game as won it. All this talk about the season? It hasn't even started for the majority of teams that played "creampuff" games. We got a nice dose of reality. We need to get on the glass and have some of the "Mr. Big Nuts" attitude when taking 3's that we had last season. It's hard to complain about the glass when we left a 7 foot 280 player on the bench for most of the game. We have highly touted freshmen, we need to let them get their feet wet in November, so that they will be ready come March and April. One of the key plays for Indiana was a freshman knocking down a 3 pointer during overtime. We have to start letting it loose and stop playing not to loose. We are extremely talented and on the bright side at least we know what we have to work on. It is definitely fixable.

@KansasComet absolutely :100: Couldn't agree more. Couldn't have said it better.

With 16.5 seconds in overtime and KU behind 99-97, this was the KU lineup on the court.

!image.jpeg ↗

@wrwlumpy VERY good point. I don't recall EVER seeing such a lineup in any game before when there is so much on the line. Have you? I thought there would be a lot of fouls but our 3 best players not being there in OT is not what we can afford ever again.

@RockChalkinTexas said:

@wrwlumpy VERY good point. I don't recall EVER seeing such a lineup in any game before when there is so much on the line. Have you? I thought there would be a lot of fouls but our 3 best players not being there in OT is not what we can afford ever again.

Don't know who it will be but Self needs to trust either Lightfoot or Coleby. Can't play a bunch of 4 guard ball when you only have 5 eligible scholarship guards and NOT have foul trouble.

On the bright side Josh and Doke are gonna play a lot, should shut up the Self doesn't play FR idiocy.

KU guards defended the 3 from the paint, running at the open shooter with an arm extended in vain. The Indiana guards played defense outside the three point line all night, seldom giving our guard with the ball an open 3. Frank and Devonte are under the defensive rim most of the time instead of defending on the perimeter. Frank tied for most rebounds with Landon at 7. Devonte had 4 rebounds. With our guards playing defense with their heels in the paint, we are going to see a lot of uncontested 3's shot against us.

Disappointing loss. No question. Certainly had chances to win the game. The rebounding is the biggest thing that sticks out for me... we will have to have a vast improvement in that area. Fortunately, there's alot of time to do that and I think Self will put the pieces together in a way that gives the best chance to do so. How tough is Frank though... 30 pts and 7 rebs. Add 9 assists. But I say as I did last season. If Mason is going to be our best rebounder were gonna struggle. Bigs have to step up

Rebounding was the big difference, but i also think we get smoked if they dont turn it over 18 times to help offfset the rebounds. One thing to think about is the 2001-02 hawks started 0-2 on the season in Maui losing to ball state and Houston. They went on to be B12 champs and make the FF.

A lot of good points from all Yes I will admit it sucked we got bear, of course if it were up to me we would NEVER lose, that's how spoiled I am. After it had sit in for awhile and again this morning I was trying to think why would I be mad, ticked off? Like I said to the wife multiple times last night during the game, this game is more like a game you would see being played in March - - -Not NOVEMBER. - - Then thought after the game they was interviewing Coach Crean and the 1st thing he said was - -- That was A MARCH GAME.

There were a couple of things that I thought stuck out for the reasons of being beat & I thought myself and one, has been mentioned here & the other was brought up last night during the game. The main one I thought was the Rebounding I kept saying we are getting our ass pounded on the boards, second they brought up last night and that was our transition defense, getting beat back down the floor.

But like Kansas Com said we have to Relax, no need to panic these are things that can and am sure will be fixed. Jaybate brought up good points, & did some comparsing between Wayne and josh, saying Wayne could of had the possibility of hanging 30 on Indiana, which yes he could of BUT- - -the question is, could Wayne of hung 30 on Indiana as a Freshman? we don't know that, certainly as a Junior yes he could but he developed more as a scoring throughout and like said he was a yo-yo never know.

Like was also said we could of just play a total butt load full of cream puffs -- but as we all know that's not how it is done here at Ku - -Hell Texas barely bear Incarnate World - -think they won by 5, Incarnate world for gosh sakes. Like I said ya it sucks but overall like I thought and the Indiana Coach said was that was a MARCH game., Now it's going to be extremely tough Tuesday against Duke, kind of surprised we were going to fly straight to New York kind of worried how we will do then also. - -- the long flight -- -jet lag, the hard game an over time game against Indiana how our legs will be.- - -BUT we going to be fine, it's the first game - -let the season roll - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@jaybate-1.0 How did the new rule changes affect us last night? I think its obvious they did, 32 fouls for both teams, but how did that affect KU and how will they adapt?

I think once they tighten up that and the rebounding, they should start winning games like this.

@wrwlumpy

That quintet had the smallest average leg diameter of any KU team ever!

THE MONOFILAMENT MEN !

I'm disappointed. No other way around it honestly.

I said after the exhibition games that Indiana & Duke were more prepared after watching them and it showed last night in the fundamentals. Some were quick to say how you can take anything from exhibition games but you can. Right now KU is a good team, and far from a great team.. Maybe that's exactly where they need to be so that this team doesn't peak too soon, but the bigger picture is this team still should have found a way to win and it didn't.

I'm not ready to overreact because we played a top 15 team in the first game. That isn't how most years start but it was a great eye opener. This helps the team going into Tuesday. Whatever they can correct between now and then will remain to be seen.

We did see plenty of positives besides the obvious holes right now. We know Frank Mason is going to lay it all on the line for his team and I think as this group grows more comfortable with each other that they will join him. Right now Frank gets it, everyone else has to reach his level of play for this team to get where they want. I've been very disappointed in Devonte Graham right now. As a leader and upperclassmen he's not where I thought he would be.

What we do know already is that the margin for error with this group is very low. Until everyone gets on the same page off-nights from any of the top 7 will be felt in the final score. Jackson certainly didn't make a good first impression on the fan-base. He was non-existent besides 3-4 plays.

Things will get better, the season is a gauntlet. We'll learn from this loss

@Lulufulu

It's hard to say, because Self appears to be concealing a lot of injuries.

We can't really know how much of Lucas' "sore foot" was the problem and how much it was rules changes and catching IU on a hot night.

We know Frank and Devonte never both used to foul out, so maybe it was rules. But it sure looked like Devonte grabbed his hamstring middle of the game and was never the same after.

Is this really Bragg at this weight under these rules, or does he have a hand injury that is keeping him from shooting his jumper?

Beyond injury, there is the heavy reliance on JJ, who hasn't figured out team defense and how to help one and two passes away and the necessity of playing Doke who struggles with hedge decisions.

The logical take away is that what we saw was a good team caught up in the interplay of rule changes, injuries and new players that haven't figured out how to play team defense without breakdowns creating easy baskets.

Taken all together, KU HAS TO BE PRETTY GOOD TO TAKE ANOTHER GOOD TEAM TO A LAST SECOND IN OVERTIME WITH ALL THE INTERACTING PROBLEMS I HAVE MENTIONED.

If the injuries are few and shorter duration than appears, they will tighten up team defense shortly, get the hang of new rules, shoot better, and beat a team like IU, if Self can find away to teach them to rebound.

But stress reactions and hamstrings are long lasting injuries and we can't be sure who else is in trouble healthwise.

This team has one more problem: no bad strong man that throws fear in the opponents' minds.

We learned last night that Josh is a tough nut, but he just isn't strong enough and intimidating enough to enforce.

Landon isn't either--not yet.

Not against D1 muscle ballers.

Put it this way: Bob Huggins now believes he can intimidate his way to a B12 title.

KU is a very athletic and talented team that can score.

But right now it faces the lot of a 98 pound weakling at muscle beach, unless Lucas/Doke/Coleby man-up and muscle.

Josh Jackson will intimidate the team's with little talent and no muscle. He will be far more aggressive than most guys his size. But by the end of a game of Big 10 bang Ball, he was just another skinny guy with hops.

Self has a problem.

How do you become a team of little tigers? How do little men rebound with big men--with last year's brawny Nova guys say?

Wooden figured it out in 1963.

He ran, and pressed, drove it, shot over it with one great shot, and fought for rebounding position at all costs. In short he tried to fatigue every big opponent. He tried to make cowards of them with fatigue.

KU has the right talent to play this way if it can find its mad 6-5 Freddie Slaughter at the post, or get its big men healthy and stay big and mean.

KU will probably look much better against Duke, because Duke is NOT big and brawny like IU.

But unless KU gets healthy and gets in better running condition, or stays big inside, any good Big 10 team will likely clock us.

Dos mas cosas...

Be ready for 0-2 tonight if Self is concealing lots of injuries.

This team defense and rebounding thing will take some time to fix.

And it appears we haven't got a single explosive defender on this team...no Jam Tray...blocking, even a little, is NOT us.

Self defense has always hinged on great team defense that disrupts with steals or blocks. Last year's team disrupted less than usual, but it had players that did occasionally explode out of position and disrupt.

No sign of that last night. None!

Self is going to have to do another incredible coaching job this season.

He is going to have to innovate again.

The apparent recruiting embargo requires it yet again.

And hope he catches a break on injuries.

Kansas wins 7/10 times vs IU. Ku wouldn't should so cold from 3 & IU wouldn't shoot so hot. That was the difference in the game.

What is particularly concerning is Kansas' inability to stop penetration and giving up offensive rebounds. We've seen it in both exhibitions and last night. Let's hope Doke comes along as a fantastic shot blocker so the D doesn't have to collapse so much leaving the wide open perimeter shots.

Last night showed the fear that I have with this team. Josh Jackson is a great player, but as an off ball player, he must have quality touches in order to be effective.

Jackson, by my count, had two quality touches in the second half and OT. A quality touch is one where you catch the ball in an attacking position. Once he was fouled on the arm, the other time he passed. That's it.

Josh is not a shooter. Spotting him up on the corner or on the wing is useless because he is easy to defend from there.

This team needs to run. Every player on this roster other than maybe Lucas is better in the open floor. Svi, Vick, Udoka, Josh, Frank, Devonte, Carlton, Mitch, all of them will be better with the pace up. Self needs to unbridle his horses and let them run.

Unless we get LL 2.0 like we did the last part of last year, or Dok develops quickly, sweet 16 at best. LL's injury is concerning. It's obviously affecting his play, and we're getting beaten up inside as a result.

@chriz Pretty obvious Lucas is struggling with his foot issue. That was not last year's Lucas.

@justanotherfan Josh is young and he just got his first lesson. Never ever under any circumstances tell the media that you are trying to go undefeated. It will backfire more times than not. Better now than game 40 though.

@justanotherfan

I agree, but here is the problem facing both of us.

Self and Crean had them running and fouling.

It was a 103-99 game!

Take away the OT and it was STILL a high trip count. Part of that was fouling and part of it was the hurry up of both offenses. But really, IU fouled us 12 fewer times, so our high scoring definitely stemmed from hurry up.

So the problem is not running, it is the way KU gets shots for Josh on the run, and the terrible team defense Josh (and some others) play on the run.

Let's hope Josh only takes a few games to get comfy with the speed and physicality of D1 and learns off-ball help defence.

@chriz

Copy and paste.

@KansasComet There was nothing wrong with Josh saying KU was trying to undefeated. He didn't predict KU would go undefeated, just that it was a goal and it should be a goal of every KU every year because there are very few games KU is more than a toss up to lose.

@KansasComet Yeah, probly shouldnt have mentioned going undefeated. BUT he did say it with much less bravado than ohh say those kids from Kentucky a couple years ago.

@jaybate-1.0 Thanks for the explanation about the rules and such. I trust Bill Self. I do. We may take another lump or two heading into the conference but he will have this team ready. He needs to talk to Hoiberg again if possible. Hell, taking some notes on how Golden State plays wouldnt go amiss either. Granted we dont have talent like KD or the Splash bros.

@Lulufulu

Self is at his best, when his most cherished "who we are" habits are denied him. He resists furiously, but when he has to change he changes in brilliantly unexpected ways. I call them hat rabbits.

Let's see if he's got another in the top hat!

@jaybate-1.0 He absolutely does. The guy is amazing at tweaking his roster, motivating his guys, bringing out their best. We only have to look back at every single one of his seasons here at KU as a reminder.

I just read Jesse's post game article and Matt Tait's post game writes as well. I gotta say I like what I read.

Yah, this loss stung bcuz KU could have won the game had a couple calls gone our way...the 3pointer that wasnt a 3 pointer, and the IU kid being out of bounds that got missed too. And we would have won had Frank not missed that single free throw.

But I take this loss as a better opportunity for Coach Self to work his magic with our boys, especially our Freshies and Sophs.

Lastly, Im just glad College basketball is back again.

@Texas-Hawk-10 Absolutely nothing wrong with saying it. I couldn't agree more. The lesson is that it is easier said than done. Can we agree on that my friend?

@Lulufulu Yes, in that case shirts were printed up and the world was theirs. The night that it happened to them was awful for them. The morning after appeared to be even worse from my vantage point. I was in Indianapolis that weekend. Part of me wanted to laugh. The other part of me already had!

KU bigs need to gain chemistry, heal a foot, and play with a bit-o-not-soft nastiness. Play like Izzo's bigs. Bragg needs a coming out party. His 12 pts were fairly quiet, imagine if he has a big game, suddenly we are off his back.

By playing 4 guards, the ONLY thing we are masking is our poor post play. But just how much chemistry do our 4g-lineups actually have. I see that 4G lineup as an infant experiment. Think about it: we've played a 4G lineup for exactly 3 games, and not the entire games...and to think we could beat a top11 team with it? Right out of the gate? I dont think so. Only Frank kept us in it, or else IU beats us, no OT needed.

Spin it the other way: If it wasnt for Frank, we get a 15-20pt loss at a neutral site.

Spin it the Self way: He put the 5 odd-fellow lineup pictured above simply to allow the "L" to happen, and let this team taste defeat, and all the focus and intensity that will allow. And if Duke beats us, and we are 0-2, you might go ahead and pencil us in to the F4, as it could be that motivating, with a true test looming Jan.28 (KY).

You don't replace 2 three year starters in Bill Self's system with a freshman and a seldom used Soph. and expect results the first game. Especially against a quality opponent in the first game. A few missed calls (shot clock violation etc.) a few missed plays by our guys and they lose. No margin for error early, but this is what we all wanted! This is Josh starting and playing thru mediocrity unlike Oubre. This is Josh getting to learn and the team a chance to take it's lumps and gel.

This is how you prepare for April.

@ralster and @dylans

You are both onto some things.

Self had to work on this 4 guard thing sometime, because:

a.) we will play small teams and need to be able to go small, because of bigs that may not be able to hedge to 20 feet;

b.) our bigs are injured and other than Lucas in embryonic stages;

c.) Self wants to create video of Josh showing up everywhere ASAP to force opposing coaches to prepare; and

d.) until (if) Colelby can play, KU doesn't have enough developed bigs to go big and stay big for 40 minutes, so KU has to learn to play small regardless.

He is also getting on with all the above from the start, because this bunch minimizes TOs and fouling while learning new rules.

Notice KU "only" had 38 fouls compared to IU's 50.

Self guessed right and almost stole one from Crean, who has probably the best big man in the country in Bryant.

Healing from injuries after Duke is paramount.

But Duke is another "play through" game.

P.S.: Bragg, like all. bigs, always wanted to be a stretch 4 and his harried unsettled play explains why there aren't many doing it successfully: it is two positions at the same time. Bragg will get it over time. For now it is: be careful what you wish for.

I was really surprised we struggled so much. Devonte and LL both had subpar games. Our rebounding was terrible ...worst i've ever seen from a Self team. We are far behind where i felt we'd be in every possible way, shape, and form. That said, there's going to be a switch that is going to go off at some time in the future. And this team will be transformed - don't know if it takes the next game, maybe it takes 20 games ... but this will be a great team. Just don't know when.

@KUSTEVE

Unreported injuries + heavy reliance on OAD early = what we saw

@jaybate-1.0 I'd like to see Bragg in a point-forward position due to his vision and passing ability, but his handles won't allow it. I'd love to kill small teams with size. Svi and Jackson are as tall as 2/3 the post players out there.

@dylans

There are many killer app strategies and tactics waiting for players with the right skill sets.

Bragg might get there next year, but agree he is not there now.

Coach Self has been open about injuries, he has indicated that Devonte is having issues with cramping, Coleby is not fully recovered, just to name a couple. I don't understand where the talk that he is hiding injuries comes from, it certainly questions Coach Self honesty.

I posted this on another thread but seem more applicable here.

At this point KU is a work in progress. All the pieces are there but they are not fully operational yet. Positioning for rebounds and rebounding in general needs work. No question it is hard to stop a team that is in the zone from the 3, like Indiana was, but there has to be a contingency plan anyway.

The guards are fine but Devonte does not seem to be 100% and the cramping issue apparently has not been resolved. This team will go as far as Mason’s legs take it.

The referring sucked and, from my biased perception, it looked like the critical bad calls went against KU. I cannot recall when is the last time 4 starters fouled out for KU. I suspect we will be seeing more Lightfoot in the future; he was in a very short time but was solid and could give meaningful rest time to the players we need on the court at crunch time.

@JayHawkFanToo Coach Self hasnt always been forthcoming about player injuries. Its reasonable to assume that there may be some info that we arent getting in regards to player health.

But, I agree with you on the calls, the refereeing. There were two very bad calls that absolutely affected the outcome. 1. the trey that was a shot clock violation. 2. the out of bounds guy getting that rebound.

But, but, KU got out rebounded by 11 or 12. Its not like we are a small team. Bragg, Lucas, Udoka, all very big guys, should be perfectly capable of boxing out and grabbing boards!! Its maddening! I cant even imagine what its like for Coach.

KUs lack of ability to rebound defensively absolutely shook the game up too.

The problem that I saw with the 4 guard offense is that Self just ran the same offense through it. What exactly is that supposed to do? So you look to get your best players on the floor and run the same structured offense that only works with the right lineup. We plugged guards in all game and saw the results of that.

I know its game 1 but if Self is going to Change, you actually have to Change the offense your running to get the results you want from it.

It was game 1, again, I have to remind myself of this. So much time to make things work. Devonte had a bad shooting game and didn't impact the game at all. Same with Jackson and we were more then 1 pathetic officiating call (missed shot clock violation & in OT player was out of bounds and scored on resulting possession) from winning or a made FT (Mason). Things will get better but we might be 0-2 before we start seeing it

@Lulufulu

I agree. As I mentioned in my post rebounding is a big issue and it has nothing to do with size, which KU has. It has to do with not boxing out and getting in position to rebound. If you looked under the KU basket after a IU miss, it was like Grand Central Station with 3 or 4 IU players that had no business being there and should have been boxed out. I am sure Coach Self will be working on that.

Vick and Jackson. Assuming Svi and Bragg have shown us what they can do, it's all about the development of our other guys. With Jackson, he didn't contribute much either in driving to the basket or producing steals. I'm left wondering what his value is and whether I'm going to have to eat my words about him affecting the game more than Wiggins. Vick needs to produce steals, blocks and shutdown defense. Period. If neither of these things happen, we will have to play at our absolute peak this year to go anywhere in March.

People said we played "bad". We played about as "bad" as Indiana. They simply look more talented to me, and there is rumor that this year has more incoming talent than last. So either Indiana is a top 5 squad, or we have to lower our expectations.

@JayHawkFanToo exactly. I don't know what is so complicated about blocking out. We can't do much when a team is hitting threes with a hand right in their face, but rebounding is completely under the defense's control.

@betterfireE to me, it doesn't look like certain guys are maximizing their potential. Jackson is settling for shots and I personally think, contrary to what Jaybate thinks, that his one on one defense is not the best, Carlton is not putting in enough mental effort to rebound, and Devonte has been fooling around ever since the exhibitions started. I know Devonte has been dealing with cramps, but he needs to tighten things up and stop having crazy drives. Frank and Svi have played well. Landon has played better than what others are giving him credit for, though his rebounding numbers could be higher.

In regards to Indiana, things always look better when shots go in. They made 15 threes and shot 50%, with several of those being contested and a hand in their face. They are a good shooting team, but they won't have many games where they shoot that well.

@JayHawkFanToo

Talk of possibly under- and un- reported injuries comes from:

--DG grabbing an unreported hamstring, in addition to whatever cramping may have been reported;

--saying Lucas has just a "sore foot" despite wearing a boot off the floor and some kind of apparatus in the last game that makes his shoe bulge while he favors that side and underperforms for 3 straight games including two D-II teams;

--Bragg getting few rebounds in three games and taking few jump shots and getting few dunks or blocks suggesting an unreported injury is keeping him from getting up;

--the best recruit in the country going 3-11 and only occasionally being able to get up; and

--Coleby going from a few minutes vs. D-II team's to no minutes vs a big IU team we got in foul trouble against and were facing with a gimpy Lucas and so could have used at least the same few minutes Coleby gave previously.

I didn't watch Vick, so not sure on him.

Regardless, when Tyler starts playing in a close game one wonders about injuries to other perimeter guys.

@betterfireE

Copy and paste.

@BeddieKU23

One of the problems starting an OAD early is he can only learn so much of the offense and defense schemes.

Self looked like he was keeping it a 10 page playbook and Josh was struggling with that!

The 4-1 looked pretty good last season when a lot of guys could make treys.

But I agree. I'm not sure how the 4-1 is supposed to work with Josh on a wing where he's not a threat. It's like moving Kevin Young outside.

@Lulufulu when a player does not play well, you can't always assume "he's injured". Sometimes, believe it or not, guys don't play well.

The rebounding is frustrating - I don't believe for a minute that the coaches have not told them how to block out, assuming they didn't know. Personally, it's all about "want to".

@HawkChamp said:

.
In regards to Indiana, things always look better when shots go in. They made 15 threes and shot 50%, with several of those being contested and a hand in their face. They are a good shooting team, but they won't have many games where they shoot that well.

I disagree...they won't always shoot that well.....but they will have quite a few games where they shoot that well....JMO

@betterfireE You may have valid points................but it is only one game. Jackson will contribute a lot....more than Wiggins? Remains to be seen. No question....Indiana is a good team. The game could have gone either way. My sense is that they played more to their potential than we did....but who really knows.
I always find it interesting.....would our rhetoric be significantly different if a few things had gone our way and we ended up winning the game?

@jaybate-1.0

But Josh can make shots outside, he just has to be smart about it. Releford was not a shooter but became efficient at picking his spots. Josh wasn't aggressive in this game didn't even attempt to drive the hoop and missed a gimme layup he could have dunked. I expected different from this one but his first impression leaves you thinking this is just another OAD that isn't all that again. I hope this was an eye opener for him.

Self has to evolve this offense and let it shoot quick shots and force tempo. We built leads when they played fast. This doesn't look like a grind it out squad

@Hawk8086

Good point, the issues would have still been front and center but it would have felt really good with a win to work on those issues.

Tuesday is important for many reasons. You don't want to be 0-2 with the type of roster we have

@BeddieKU23 great point about that missed wide open layup. I was hoping Josh wouldn't be another soft OAD (or trying to avoid injury, which ever one). It seems as though he is not what we thought he was - not dunking it was pretty soft.

@HawkChamp did you see his dunk off the offensive board?

@BeddieKU23 said:

Self has to evolve this offense and let it shoot quick shots and force tempo. We built leads when they played fast. This doesn't look like a grind it out squad

100%. Will he do it tho...

@BShark

No I don't expect he will but I guess I should let it play out first.

In the game Chat I pointed out tempo several times and that seemed to be key with this group. I think of North Carolina's style of play as something this team might have to evolve into.

Again I've advocated for change after 1 game and I'm not sure how much of it is fueled by being disappointed with the loss. I suspect some of it comes from that. I don't know what actual changes need to happen to make whatever point I'm driving reality. I know that besides Frank we didn't see a very aggressive bunch out there offensively in the 2nd half and OT. Missed shots became a big issue, one that made the rebounding/officiating and missed FT's seem more of an issue in the moment.

The big positive I keep taking away from the game is how beneficial it is to play a top level team so early. It forces Coach and the players to really think about the effort they must give to beat good teams. If Friday's loss turns into Tuesday's win because of that experience I'll be thankful the schedule played out the way it did.

@Crimsonorblue22

that was a great play.

Are we men, or are we Snowflakes? Are we going to come out and kick Dook's ass, or are we going to lay around caterwauling in the fetal position, and let those pansies win? Our redemption is near: beat DOOK!

@HawkChamp

"...when a player does not play well, you can’t always assume "he’s injured..."

I don't recall anyone in this thread ever assuming that weak performance is "always" the result of injury. I know I never discuss injury and lack of performance in those terms. So far, you are the only one I recall to suggest it, and then you reject it; that appears a straw argument of sorts.

We are looking for likely explanations of 3 consecutive games of apparent underperformance and I have hypothesized a number of likely drivers, including, but not limited to, under- and un-reported injury, converging to produce the phenomenon.

Where did you get the idea that anyone else believes injury "always" causes reduced performance?

Rock Chalk!

@KUSTEVE

Yeeee haaaaaaw!

Let's play some more basketball!

@BeddieKU23

Really measured, articulate and sensible take.

Recall the last two seasons especially that Self has tried to build leads with treys and transition, and defend leads "running the stuff" or Bad Balling. This seems to be what he is trying this season, too.

@BeddieKU23

Josh played the way many OADs do in their first game against good D1 competition. The lack of driving suggests possible injury, but the 3 position role has long been a tough one for some of KU's best talent to find the sweet spot of. Previous OAD 3s have struggled with "waiting for the game to come to them." They get too passive. Others start out trying to do too much. Still others struggle with not being the most dominant and skilled person on the floor for the first time.

I don't have doubts about Josh being very good and making a big contribution. But it will take a month or two to find the sweet spot.

Also, just because he goes 7-11 the next game, instead of 3-11, does not mean he will have found it. Making shots comes and goes. It's mostly his floor game that he needs to find his way on; that's what will take a few games.

But the guy is a terrific young athlete, so barring injury, he will settle in in a few games.

He is already good enough to make it a 1-point game against a good Hoosier team.

His trey balling, or possible lack there of, is what I have been calling board rats' attentions to from the moment he was signed. The logic distills to this:

If strong Trey ball, then open driving lanes for great athleticism to exploit.

If weak Trey ball, then closed driving lanes even Great athleticism cannot exploit.

The video of Josh the first three games will make opposing coaches scheme to give him the Trey and close the driving lanes.

If he can make the Trey, then he will make them pay and shortly those lanes will open.

If he cannot, he and we are in for one of those seasons of intermittent great physical prowess but not high scoring efficiency, unless he holds his FGAs to 7-8.

@jaybate-1.0

I hope that if defenses sag off Jackson on the perimeter that Self puts him somewhere else on the floor.

Why not run him on the high post or down on the block like we did with Perry? Hard to believe we can't find ways to exploit how a defense may play him. I think it would be a shame to force Jackson all season to sit on the perimeter and create his own offense. So many ways to use his size and athleticism that don't involve him making a play 20 feet from the hoop.

I'm really interested in seeing how he responds from the loss as well as the team. Have to think we'll see some better focus in area's that were lacking.

I want to see numerous backdoor cuts from Josh. I wanna see him in a Keith Langford/slasher type roll. Aggressive, attacking the basket, keeping the D on it's heels the whole game. This opens up the three ball for the rest of the team, but could pack the lane. So spacing is important and getting Josh in space is paramount to his success.

@BeddieKU23 there does need to be more scheming, and I think that aspect leaves a bit to be desired. He did get the ball in the post on one play in the Indiana game - I just wish there was more stuff like that to keep opposing defenses guessing.

Keep in mind that last year's team did not have a great start to the year and blew a lead late to MSU - that was an ugly game. Won the Maui tournament, but the teams out there weren't exactly stellar. February is when they hit their stride and started playing like how we thought they would. This year's team will improve, it is just a matter of figuring some things out and rebounding better. They'll get there.

@jaybate-1.0 

I've got beef and hamburger helper won't help this time. 

Here we are at the beginning of another fresh KU basketball season and us die hard fans are trying to scramble to figure out the holes in this team and the possible solutions.  These days I don't get to watch the games with a my ol college crew, but we still talk in group texts. One thing that is pretty consistent is our disdain with Lucas.  I noticed in your initial analysis you gave a lot of players your focus, but did not talk about perhaps the most concerning player on the team.  It could be that you, like many fans have just settled on our current situation and are just willing to accept it and defend coach self because he can do no wrong.  I saw later you talked about Lucas being injured (classic jaybate). So if he is "injured" why do we play him 35 minutes in the game!  I know the obvious explanation of why he plays as much as he does, but that doesn't make him any easier to watch.  How many times are we going to see him get stripped as he brings the ball down? How many times is he going to be blocked this season? It is like he has to power up if he is going to score. We are going to face plenty of D1 teams that have tall players and Lucas literally cannot score over people.  Unless he has a pass that leaves him wide open he doesn't score.  His obvious lack of athletism should be a major concern. Anyone see his reverse layup atempt? He looked stiffer than kids trying to do the mannequin challenge. I get that Dok is young and raw, but we gave him 7 minutes. In that time he had two rebounds and one block. Lucas had zero blocks and seven rebounds in 35.

I know KU will be fine in the long run, but it is going to be a painful watching LL for the next 5 months if nothing changes in his game or our game plan.

Just venting by the way, sometimes I got to get this stuff off my chest and I consider this site my safe space. Haha

@jaybate-1.0  tell me why I am wrong, or least help cool my kettle.

Rock Chalk all the way let's beat Duke!

As I recall, Coach declared sometime a week or so ago that his team would not abandon learning principles in order to run willy nilly just to win one game. (At least, he stated something along that order.) Of course, what we saw with Frank in his last few minutes on the floor, some of those principles might already have been shitcanned...or perhaps the "principles" finally got kicked into high gear.

@jaybate-1.0 Injury update

Senior forward Landen Lucas, who battled a sore foot in Hawaii and junior guard Devonte' Graham, who continued to have issues with cramping, both appeared to be in good shape over the weekend, Self said.

“Landen practiced some," Self said. "He was limited, but he practiced. And he was limited by design. Regardless of how he (felt), he was gonna be limited.”

As for Graham, Self said team doctors and nutritionists continued to try to find a quick fix for the cramp issues that have plagued him so far this season.

“Devonte’ said he felt good," Self said. "Whether or not it affected him or not, he said from about the 15-minute mark of the second half (vs. Indiana) he started the beginning stages of the cramping and stuff like that. I’m not sure he was totally himself over there. He struggled with that and we’ve got medical experts and people like that working with him now and hopefully there’ll be some things that can be done that’ll actually make him feel better the longer he’s doing those things.”

Self said Graham began taking steps to improve his leg cramps the day before KU played in Hawaii but added, "I’m not sure it had a total chance to take effect. I think he’ll be fine.”

I have got to tone my basketball expectations WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY down. I literally tossed and turned all night long after the stupid game the other night. Over a frickin basketball game.......

@RockChalkRedlock

Nice venting! We all need to let it out after an opening game loss, regardless of opponent.

We know what Lucas is, we'll see if he can get healthy enough to improve on the things we know he's limited on. The Bringing the ball down has plagued him his entire career. I think he will prove to be better then he was Friday, Bryant is an NBA player and Lucas won't play against many that are better.

Serious question did Lucas look better because of Perry Ellis? Without the attention Ellis commanded will Lucas's game suffer? I do think Lucas is hobbled, still playing, because the injury hasn't progressed to the point where he needs to sit or rest but its there. Lucas is not 100%.

I would continue to temper expectations of Udoka. Another missed dunk attempt (starting to look like that is a problem) and good thing we cleaned up his miss. Honestly would you want Udoka in the game with that FT form, he looks like a 30-40% FT shooter. Bigs will just foul him and dare him to make a FT. He offers some intangibles but there was one play he didn't use his body enough running his man up the paint and let the big recover for a turnover. He's just as raw as Diallo, if not more. Hopefully as the months pass on, his comfort level increases. I hope our guards figure out how to maximize his current talent level (like throwing a good lob pass) or staying in front of their man so he's not forced into an obvious foul situation.

@jaybate-1.0 said:

@JayHawkFanToo

Talk of possibly under- and un- reported injuries comes from:

--DG grabbing an unreported hamstring, in addition to whatever cramping may have been reported;

Unreported hamstring? You are jumping to conclusions based on no evidence. What I saw is consistent with cramping that Coach Self has reported and apparently is still bothering him. Coach Self has indicated that Graham will play against Duke. ↗

--saying Lucas has just a "sore foot" despite wearing a boot off the floor and some kind of apparatus in the last game that makes his shoe bulge while he favors that side and underperforms for 3 straight games including two D-II teams;

Have you considered that not having Perry Ellis and playing with a very green Bragg has contributed to his sub par performances? Does he have a sore foot? Yes, Coach Self has indicated that much and this is why he is wearing the boot to help him recover faster and prevent further injury. If you watch the team photos, there are 2 other players also wearing boots. If he had a serious injury he would not be playing the minute he did, no way. The main problem is KU players are not boxing opposing players out and you have Lucas fighting against 3 or 4 other players for rebounds; again, not having Perry allowed IU to concentrate on Lucas inside...do we miss Perry yet? This was typical...

!Lucas 2.jpg ↗

!Luccas 3.jpg ↗

--Bragg getting few rebounds in three games and taking few jump shots and getting few dunks or blocks suggesting an unreported injury is keeping him from getting up;

Bragg is on a "funk" as Coach Self indicated and has been widely reported and his lack of performance is not due to injury but just not being in the right place at the right time. If you recall, players such as Alexander and Diallo and a lot of the newer players have had the same issue...remember TRob in his freshman year?. Coach Self's system is not simple and Bragg has not played enough to be comfortable. I saw no health issues...unless yo call not quite understanding the system a health issue.

--the best recruit in the country going 3-11 and only occasionally being able to get up; and

The best recruit is a green freshman still learning the system and playing his first game against an elite team. I did not see any sign of injury whatsoever.

--Coleby going from a few minutes vs. D-II team's to no minutes vs a big IU team we got in foul trouble against and were facing with a gimpy Lucas and so could have used at least the same few minutes Coleby gave previously.

Self has indicated several times that Coleby is not at full strength, so he obviously has disclosed his condition.

I didn't watch Vick, so not sure on him.

Vick looked as fit as he can be...

Regardless, when Tyler starts playing in a close game one wonders about injuries to other perimeter guys.

Four starters had fouled lout at that time and he had to play who he had available to try to match up as well as he could with the other team. Is this the lineup you want at the end of games? NO, Who would you have played instead of Tyler Self?.

@JayHawkFanToo

"Jumping to conclusions"

Reporting what I see.

@JayHawkFanToo

"Have you considered that not having Perry Ellis and playing with a very green Bragg has contributed to his sub par performances? "

Yes, and because that does not explain his poor rebounding numbers I marked it irrelevant, same as you should.

@jaybate-1.0 thats one thing to consider because of the double teams perry would often see

@jaybate-1.0

It is not at all irrelevant. Last year Perry got the double team treatment and Lucas had more room to maneuver and rebound. This year Lucas is being doubled teamed because Bragg is nowhere in sight to help and thus his number are lower. It is really that simple but if you prefer to think it is because a secret injury that Coach Self has failed to disclose, then by all means you can have it.

I never thought Bragg would or could replace Ellis. Totally different skill sets. Perry could put the ball on the floor and post. Not many bigs can do that. Ideally we have Josh Jackson do some of that, with Bragg available for layups and 10 footers.

The biggest difference between squads was that last year, we really tightened up our defense. But still, we did not produce a lot of steals, and I wonder how successful a defense can be without creating turnovers. We don't seem to have the shooting ability that we did last year, so creating turnovers is even more important.

@JayHawkFanToo said:

Bragg is on a “funk” as Coach Self indicated and has been widely reported and his lack of performance is not due to injury but just not being in the right place at the right time

Self has misinformed in the past, when doing so was for team benefit, so the above just begs the question. It doesn't answer it at all. Is he misinforming about the "funk"?

Remember TRob?

Yes, he makes a poor analogy. TRob was more inept as a freshman than Bragg, and he was not asked to start or play big minutes his sophomore year, but rather be a third big man enforcer for the two stores: Marcos and Kieff. Bragg was at one time expected to be a starter at 4. But something happened to Bragg. Self calls it a funk, but counter intuitively Self appears to have committed to a 4-guard line up. Hmmm. A funk is kind of hard to define. Why would a funk make elevating for jump shots and rebounds particularly difficult? Hmmm.

@JayHawkFanToo

Actually it is quite irrelevant. Don't mean to argue. Just find your argument unpersuasive.

My take....

Bragg is HORRIBLE at boxing out right now. Several times I watched him just turn and look at the ball with no regard for getting his ass into someone. Everyone was hoping for a huge jump out of him. Last year when he had "good" games he scored off open jumpers and junk rebounds and layups.

Mason, Devonte, Jackson, Svi - will all be fine

Lucas - is what he is and looked better last year being next to Ellis. Bragg will not demand that much attention so Lucas WILL struggle.

Our offensive sets or I should say the lack of was concerning. It looked like pick up ball at times.

Nobody on offense deserves major attention from help defense so guys HAVE to win one on one battles which most aside from Frank cant do. This is why the offensive sets are so important.

@jaybate-1.0

A funk is Bragg trying to learn to use his newly acquired physique while learning the system and trying to live up to the expectations. A couple of solid games and he will be gold. Absolutely nothing physically wrong with him...more of a head problem, in my opinion, of course..

@jaybate-1.0 said:

@JayHawkFanToo

Actually it is quite irrelevant. Don't mean to argue. Just find your argument unpersuasive.

...as I do yours, so let's agree to disagree and see what happens in the next few weeks.

@JayHawkFanToo

Like Agent Mulder, I want to believe…

@JayHawkFanToo

Yes I definitely disagree and am happy to let time and games resolve the difference

If Bragg does not get his mind and body into the game early on tomorrow night I would move Josh to the 4, utilize Svi and Vick much more in the second half. Gotta hope that Graham's "cure" has taken effect. Did I hear right, that his cramping problem had been ongoing for a couple of weeks, but he took more desperate action to deal with it only the day before the Indiana game? If those two things are true, then coaches and trainers are not taking these big contests so seriously as some of we posters are!

@REHawk

LOL!

Its just a sore foot.

Its just cramping.

Its just a funk.

What do you want to bet that Bill Self looks carefully at his pay check and doesn't say: its just a pay check?

What do you want to bet that Bill Self doesn't just throw on any suit, shirt and tie lying on the floor of his closet for a game; that he doesn't say: its just a suit for a game.

What do you want to bet he doesn't just look in the mirror and say; its just hair.

Bill Self appears to be meticulous...about most everything.

I have a feeling that we are not getting the full story on any of these issues: sore foot, cramping, and funking.

My 02. It's LESS than ideal that Lucas is starting at KU. Ideally, he is a career bench player. HOWEVER, at this point, it can't be helped. So let's hope he heals up, because Doke isn't starting.

@BShark

It is odd and unfortunate that Big Man U finds itself in the position of Little Man U, even in a season when Self seemed to break the ice some and sign some bigs.

Having a team full of trey ballers can ease the impact of becoming a Little Man U.

This year, however, we are getting the full sense of what it means not to have functioning big men.

Landen was plenty good down the stretch. If we had that Landen now, I would not be opining on this.

Azuibuke looks like a project due to come on line next season, or the season after.

Lightfoot would be a solid prospect at the 3, or against light 4s, next year, but he is another light cruiser being asked to play heavy cruiser/fast battle ship and it will look fine until he has to face the Top Ten teams with the battle wagons and carriers.

Bragg is kind of hard to figure. I wasn't expecting him to be even a second team all-league this season, so he is not a victim of over expectation from me. But I was expecting him to at least be able to start and play a garbage man 4 for 20 minutes without much drama; kind of like LaGerrie Vick is quietly getting it done on the perimeter in a narrowly scoped way. I know I am among the first to make the excuse for him that he is trying to learn to play in a new body, BUT...that really doesn't seem to capture his problems so far.

I love our two guards--Frank and Devonte--of course, and Josh, Svi and LaGerrie are getting it done, and will only get better, BUT...those five are about the least intimidating personalities one can find.

Imagine being a Michigan State perimeter guy and bringing it up the floor against anyone of our guys to try to score a basket. Frank and Devonte are very good, but you don't fear they will take your head off.

Imagine seeing Josh and LaGerrie. You would have to look closely to even see Vick. And Josh only looks muscular standing next to Vick. Again, they aren't the types to strike fear in your heart when you are offending.

Svi is a bit of a choir boy look, but I hold out some hope for him. He is at least thick now. And he likes to mix it up. If it were up to me, I would be trying to get Svi 15 FGAs a game and hang my hat on him. He's the only one of our guys that might be diversified enough in offensive talent, and hard nosed enough with enough thickness on defense, not to get manhandled sooner or later.

But right now, it looks like this is team increasingly looks like three yards and a cloud of Frank.

I was really hoping for more "team" interplay and more Frank, Devonte and Josh/Svi rocketing up the floor most possessions.

@jaybate-1.0 Bill had best plan meticulously about what to do with his expanding gut. He begins to look like a coach who, when constantly harried, might sooner than later be wheeled into a coronary ward.

@REHawk

Its clear Bill is feeling the pinch he is in and eating to help him think. :pizza:

I don't blame him either.

He has dodged more knives and bullets than a circus assistant to a NAVY SEAL that started an Ringling Brothers act under the Big Top.

I mean the cat has 10 lives, not 9.

And I for one can vouch for how much you can lose on your fast ball in your 50s.

Still, I am pulling for the greatest coach I have ever had the good fortune to watch and study this closely this long.

Go, Bill, go!!

@REHawk

I am glad I am not the only one that noticed that. I kept thinking he needed a much larger polo shirt.

@BeddieKU23 I agree I'm not sure we've really altered our scheme for a 4:1 style. Not that some of our normal action isn't effective at times with that player personnel on the floor. But once coaches see it consistently, they probably work better to shut it down.

It is early and I'm no coach.

@Bwag

Either am I. It just seems ill advised to run the same stuff that works for a traditional lineup if your putting out 4 guards and expecting the same results. The difference in the game was 1 play, here and there so I'll wait for tonight's game to draw another conclusion from this offense.

Dougie G. (Mr. Pants) offered an assessment of our two small guards today, saying that their height could be a season-long detriment vs. taller opponents shooting 3s (as did Indiana). He also offers a dig at Mason's and Graham's tendencies not to involve teammates to the max.
I never take Dougie's analyses too seriously; but he might have hit a nail upon the head this time out.

@REHawk

You'd best never listen to him, he truly will never have an un-biased opinion of KU. Mason had 9 dimes in the opener and was forced to become the main offense after seeing how much of an advantage he had getting to the lane and to the FT line.

Now his point about Mason/Graham's size has some merit. Not much we can do about that but we do have plenty of length from Vick/Svi/Jackson.

Benefits far outweigh the neg!

@REHawk

Yup. But we can bring Vick or Josh to the 2 guard slot for as long as necessary and see how they like shooting over 6-5 and 6-7!

Doug is an eye ball whore now.

@REHawk Doug was a pass first, second, & third point guard (very good at it) but has never appreciated scoring point guards. To be honest Frank is not a great passer and seldom looks to pass when he drives, but he is a terrific scorer. I for one have always thought DG has better point guard skills as far as getting others invlolved. In my opinion (not worth 2 cents) they should mix it up more with each taking on the point more often. I thought we would see this coming in to the year, but that hasn't been the case, so far.

I will go hide now and read the posts of those more intelligent than I.

@Barney I think Frank does what coach wants him to do. Frank has muscled up more, he doesn't seem to have a problem w/adjustment. I don't buy the Bragg hasn't adjusted to his stronger body yet.