🏀 KuBuckets Archive

Thanks for sharing.

For me, the quality of a college coach is a combination of three things:
- Recruiting = finding and getting the best talent, including transitioning out and transitioning in players each year, getting the great ones to commit and finding the hidden gems, and finally mixing of OAD and TAD with the 3-4-5 year glue guys / depth and chemistry
- Representing = alumni relations, fundraising, promoting your university, being a role model, pushing academic as well as athletic performance of the student athletes / not being a scum bag of dubious ethics, helping the community
- Coaching = practice time, teaching how to play / fundamentals, motivating, and of course all the decisions involving rotations and schemes and real time adjustments and game-time changes / having your players better prepared to execute and more win games than your opponents

As per this overview, our Coach is certainly in the top five in the nation, but Coach K has better credentials and longevity.

Coach Self does get stuck in a mindset and can be stubborn in an idea or a belief but he can and does also adjust to modern times and different players each year. His teams always play hard and go to class and have good chemistry and win.

The only thing I think we can criticize in all fairness is maybe his offensive mindset and schemes can be stale and predictable and outdated. I think he needs an offensive refresh, like we see in football where a new, surprising OC or DC can push a program to a new level.

Snacks was a good hire but where is the offensive innovation coming from?

Stubborn, yes. It is not good to change a super winning formula on a lark, or too quickly.

Delusional, no. Our coach is sane and smart and can and will adjust in the best way to give us a chance to win. Change is hard for everyone.

We have a GREAT Coach, but he is being challenged in ways that go to the core of his philosophy and this core coaching philosophy has made him so very, very successful over the years. And we are about to win our 11th straight conf title!.

I actually see movement and flexibility more than delusion and rigidity. But as players need time to evolve, coaches do too. New ground, new team, new ways of winning...

As "expert advisers and astute observers" of our beloved Jayhawks, we need to keep challenging on playing time, rotations and offensive game-planning.

The question is: does more long range shooting make us softer on both ends?

Here is a question for the analysts: how does shooting more or less threes equate to the other aspects of the game (rebounds, turnovers, points in the paint, fouls, FG % allowed, etc?

Is a three point shooting team "softer" than a grind it our near the basket shooting team? Maybe on O but not on D? This i the fear I think Coach has in jacking up a boatload of threes / game: we would become gradually softer inside and the whole dynamic would change.

Is this true? Does anyone have stats or arguments to prove or disprove?:

If the shots are open and we are gunning away, no worries, even if they do not go in.

If the shots are not falling on a given night, Coach want great D and hustle and rebounding and driving to get the foul to shoot FTs, and then we have a chance to win even on an off night.

Coach seems to think that when we shoot lots of threes, we "settle" and refuse to be tough and mix it up in the paint and play tough D, etc.

Three point shooting can be a percentage play of you have great shooters and take open shots. How many times has Coach said, "we made shots but did not play well?"

The point here is that is ALSO but not ONLY what "playing well" means...

When Coach says, "Fool's Gold" I think he means that we cannot win consistently ONLY by making threes. However, since the three point line was introduced, it is a higher percentage to shoot a three than a long two.

Yes, we should shoot more threes.

Yes, this is a very good shooting team w/ Green as the crowned prince of the three.

Yes, Coach is right that the three will not get it done all by itself but...

No, we are not the typical KU team (inside-out, dominate in the post, power ball...).

No, making threes is not a bad thing and shooting them is not a bad strategy.

No, Coach, threes point shooting is ALSO good playing. Making shots is part of the game!

Starting Cliff does not matter, just making sure he gets more minutes per game. The more minutes he gets, the more points and rebounds and blocks KU will get in each game.

Cliff is averaging only a little more than 18 min/game. He and the team will improve a lot if he averages 25 min/game going forward, and he will probably get a boatload of double-doubles. He might be physically challenged (sore, hurt, bruised, joint pain???) but he seems to be a good kid and I really do not think there are off the court issues.

Jamari is a good player, this is not about him or Landon. They are great four year players and teammates. But their upside is limited. especially against elite competition.

This is not about Coach sandbagging or trying to keep Cliff for another year by not giving him court time. There is no conspiracy.

This is simply our Head Coach not getting the Big Red Dog to fit his schemes or play the way he wants him to. I like the pressure from the fans and press to challenge Coach to give Cliff more minutes b/c it does make our team better.

RCJH beat TT!

Exactly - Coach complains about soft rebounding while keeping his best rebounder - by far - on the pine. Filling up the stat sheet is good!

Now the million dollar question: is this the mad genius at work? or simply poor coaching decisions? Our coach is one of the very best, but he is not infallible.

PS Making threes is good! This is ALSO good play, not just fool's gold.

PS Glad to see a member of the KU press finally call this out - bravo Jesse!

This issue of Cliff's limited playing time was a little obvious a month ago, obvious two weeks ago and blatantly obvious today.

This is not b/c of the loss to OSU or ISU or Temple, same thing in several games which we could have lost as well.

Coach: play the Big Red Dog more minutes!!!

Good comments - the Big Red Dog needs more minutes, period.

We cannot win at a higher level against better competition with Cliff playing 15-20 min per game. He needs to be on the court 20-25 min per game, maybe more, and it is too late in the season to be explained away with the "teaching him a lesson about effort and hustle" argument. Besides, Cliff has a good attitude and does hustle. He plays hard and is a good teammate.

Truth be told, Coach Self is stubborn and a little pig-headed. Once he is convinced of something, he will run full speed into a wall rather than re-think it (examples: his continued belief that the hi-lo offense is the best option, two point shots are better than threes, feed the post systematically, etc.). We love our head coach but his court time/pine time use of Cliff is baffling as are the rotation minutes in several games this year. What's up? (Svi should see some court time, for example...)

Another example: surely we can break a press and attack with numbers 2-1 or 3-2 instead of pulling it back out and setting up our offense and running our standard plays. This was the good solution with inferior 3-5 year players back at ORU and Tulsa (his baseline for coaching philosophy).

This is not the solution with OAD and TAD who do not have time to learn the system and therefore do not see the court b/c they have not yet mastered Coach's system, even if they are our best options. They do not yet understand the intricacies of the system but they are better players (even sometimes out of position on both ends of the court).

This is also why Jamari is playing more than Cliff: he knows the system better. He is not more consistent nor a better player nor a difference-maker like Cliff. But he does know Coach's system better.

Coach: this is not about you and your system! We love you and respect you, but you are right: we coached them poorly on Saturday. Re-think your rotations, sir!

Coach has had some movement this year - by the force of the obvious (remember UK game?) - but still not enough flexibility in his core philosophy "you do it my way and only my way and always my way or you will not play". We are shooting a few more threes, early in the shot clock, and penetrating more rather than pass around the perimeter inside=out.

But Coach needs to adjust more and play his best playersbolded text. Teaching time is over - time to play and get ready for post season!

Jamari and Landon are good players and wonderful teammates. But Cliff makes our team so much better in rebounding, rim protecting and offense in the low post.

Cliff's numbers in points and rebounds per game are considerably better on average than Jamari's, and yet Jamari continues to receive more than two min per game more court time.

Why?

Cliff's on the ball D is not very good and he is sometimes out of position and his foot work is average at best but he is not dogging it. Even an average Cliff is a better option in each game going forward and certainly as we look to peak in March.

I think Coach is a master of player development but his rotations this year have not been as stellar as year's past. One thing is certain, The Big Red Dog needs more minutes NOW!

Guys (and gals),

Where are the Big Red Dog's minutes??? I hate to beat a dead horse, but WHY is Cliff on the bench and Jamari getting all the minutes? Why is Landon getting almost as many minutes as Cliff? Get our best post player in the game, Coach!

I wrote about this extensively a couple of weeks ago. We have now seen more of the same and it just does not make sense. Cliff needs 20-25 min EACH and EVERY game for us to win the game in question and improve in the process for end of season chemistry.

What's up? In my humble opinion, this is yet another game where more minutes would translate into a better chance to play well, win and not let the other team get so many second shots late...PLAY CLIFF MORE MINUTES!!!

@jaybate-1.0 Self Getting Early On-Set Alzheimer's KISS--add "Bill just forgets who he has on the bench sometimes."

This comment made me laugh out loud...it does happen even to the best coaches in the heat of the battle.

@ icthawkfan

If there is any criticism about the coaching decision not to play Cliff more, it is not a conspiracy. But it could be stubbornness, and if Coach does not get his way with a player, then he could take the ball out of Cliff's hands and go home and pout.

I have seen this attitude in our Head Coach before but it is usually (always?) early in the season. There is value to teaching the young hot shots a lesson about playing good D, blocking out, not turning the ball over, listening to the scouting report, etc.

But this is something different, especially in the ISU game where we lost and could have won and the TCU game where we won but could have lost. Not having the Big Red Dog play more minutes was confusing to me. He is a really good player - by far our best low post option - and needs more court time to learn to play his game (all aspects of it) and develop chemistry with his teammates. No tanking this season! Another conf title and a final four is our expectation for this team!!!

Let's wait and see how many minutes, on average Alexander the Great gets going forward and how the next two months play out...and let's watch for his conditioning and overall health. I agree the wear and tear esp for the bigs in their first year has to be absolutely brutal. Cliff makes our team so much better when he is on the court, even with an "average motor"...

Very good comments - I appreciate the thoughts and will reconsider my criticism of Coach's decision for Cliff's playing time vs bench time. However...

I still think he needs to play more minutes if his body can hold up (not 30-35 but maybe 20-25). And I still think he will learn more and improve more by playing than sitting. And yes, he is the key to the season and yes he does make Perry better.

The Big Red Dog has had a few plays this year where I literally jumped out of my chair (and almost spilled my beer_, especially rebounding with one hand high above the crowd and of course "the dunk" (followed by the flex, followed by the T, followed by the bench).

There is clearly benefit in resting Cliff for the long haul and getting Landen and Hunter into the game.

Rock Chalk beat K0State Hawks!

@jaybate-1.0 you suggest a "reset" was needed during/after the ISU game and Cliff was overloaded/overwhelmed . Maybe.

Most of us concluded sitting of the Big Red Dog was why he exploded against OU and UT, i.e. he had "learned his lesson" I thought it simply had more to do with more minutes played. Now we are back to the 15 min / game playing time. What's up?

I'm sorry but I just don't get it. Maybe his body is not as well as we think and he is sore and not ready to play full time. This is the only reason (not the hustle issue which is valid early season) which makes sense to me this late in the season.

Let's monitor this simple stat: minutes played / game, it is the first one I look at when I check the box score. Here is my opinion:

The Big Red Dog needs more minutes!

I have not seen the clips form TCU or Jesse's special edition but I do watch the games attentively and re-watched the ISU game. I saw Cliff did not always close out on the three point shooters and at times got beat down the court...not unlike everyone else,

He does not hustle like Jamari but who does? Maybe Kelly? But he is not dogging it and he is not deliberately lacking effort or showing bad body language or not listening to Coach. He does sometimes have poor court position and/or execution. He is a freshman. But I do not believe this is a hustle issue. Could he do more? Sure, but the royal path is court time, not pine time.

He simply needs more game time minutes and if there is a momentary let down, pull him, sit him for a few, then get him right back in the game with a little slap on the backside. I repeat: Cliff with an average motor is still our best option and he will get better and his "motor" will improve with more time on the court than on the bench.

@Crimsonorblue22 Jesse has some good clips and detailed explanations of cliffs mistakes.

Yes, Cliff is making mistakes and sometimes is out of position on D and sometimes does not do exactly what the game plan said to do, and sometimes does not block out, etc. But my point is that only by playing will he improve these weakness, not by sitting on the bench. Cliff will learn more by doing than by watching or being told what to do. And he is still our best option.

@KUSteve I want Cliff to get 35 minutes, but I am willing to trust that Coach Self has a plan, knows what he is doing

Between the 15 min he played at TCU and the 16 min he played at ISU...and the 35 you are suggesting, there is a whole lot of minutes. Here are Cliff's stats: on average: minutes per game - .18:39 ; points - 8.6 ; rebounds 5.9 ; he is also leading the team in blocks. Simply put, he is far and away our best low post player and rebounder and scorer and athlete.

You do the math: what would his numbers be with 5 more min per game, or with 10 more min per game? Double-double and a better team with more upside - and he will het better and better with more playing time.

Yes our Coach is one of the very best and yes he does know better than any of us board rats, but if Cliff is not hurt or in foul trouble or have a poor attitude or missed tutoring or...(fill in the blank), then why is he not playing more minutes???

Yes there is a difference between strategy and tactics, winning the war and winning the battle (btw...the war analogies are a little overdone in sports and way overdone on this excellent blog post site), but something is strange in the decision to play Cliff less than 20 minutes / game when he is our best low post player. Did Coach Self say after the ISU game, "I was mad at Cliff?" What does it mean, "His motor was not very good?"

My point and pardon my harsh tone (but I am mad at Coach) is that Cliff needs more minutes to continue to improve and is our ONLY chance to be a contender in the post season, and even to win another title.

Guys - it just seems to be to be so obvious he should be on the court a lot more minutes (25-30 / game). Sit him more often but just for a few minutes, then get him back in the game, not for long stretches when the other team gets 26 O boards.

I repeat: What's up?

Coach Self and Staff:

Read my lips: PLAY CLIFF 25+ MINUTES PER GAME GOING FORWARD!!!

I cannot understand why he is on the bench? His "average motor" is better than almost all post players in the nation and in our conference and certainly on our team.

Landon had a good game but my lord, what is going on??? Cliff will produce a double-double EVERY GAME if ****he sees the court. This is not "filling up the stat sheet", this is a player who is superior to most of the competition and once again he is riding the pine because ... (fill in the blank) ... 15 minutes of court time???

How can you allow our team to get out rebounded like that without our best rebounder - by far! - in the game? Come on man!

COACH: THIS GAME WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN AS CLOSE AS IT WAS IF YOU HAD LET THE BIG RED DOG PLAY MORE MINUTES, SIMPLE AS THAT. OUR CHANCES OF WINNING THE ISU GAME WOULD HAVE INCREASED CONSIDERABLY IF CLIFF HAD PLAYED THE SECOND HALF!

This is the second time in the last four games (ISU and now TCU) where more minutes from the Big Red Dog would have produced a very different and better result for our team.

Get real - it is so obvious...this not genius, master of motivation, above and beyond the comprehension of mere mortal fans who do not understand all the subtitles of how to manage and motivate Cliff.

This is a poor coaching decision and the KU fans and our press corps needs to challenge our head coach on this point - big time!

Open to hear other views but to me it is crystal clear that more playing time for Cliff will equate to more rebounding and scoring in the post, more blocked shots and a better chance to compete, especially this year when our bigs are so weak compared to years past.

We do not have the luxury of bringing him along gradually. Now is the time and his play will improve as his court time expands. He needs time on the court, not on the pine!

Wow! What an impressive W in Austin!!! Rock Chalk New Look Hawks!

This year's version of our beloved Hawks is different from any in the past, but does have some similarities to all the teams of the Self era - we are the champions!

The observations and recommendations of the board rats and die hard KU fans are happening as this team morphs into something we have not seen before: more threes, early in the shot clock ; more outside-in play ; more dribble-drive and less pass around the perimeter ; less high-low systematic feed the post offense ; more switching on ball screens ; more depth and diversity of options ; more trap and pressure D than in the past ; and FINALLY more minutes for the Big Red Dog.

Similarities: tough D, hustle, majority of 50-50 balls, total team concept, rebounding, high percentage offense, great coaching, on-the-road poise, vast improvement over Xmas break, intimidation and mojo against other Big 12 teams who are so used to fighting for second place that they no longer believe they can win.

Frank and Devonte are incredible ball handlers who will only get better. They do not jack up shots or try the spectacular pass or loaf on D or get discouraged or lose their poise. They are LEADERS and STUDS, both of them, and tough as nails. They way they close out games when we have the lead is very impressive, great handles and confidence to make the right play, or hit the free throw, or pressure without fouling.

We have not had this kind of play at the point guard position since Sherron graduated and there are two of them. One cannot emphasize enough the maturity and decision-making ability of these two young floor generals: No Turnovers the entire second half, and three for the game - a sign of unbelievable mastery at the lead guard position. And good D which will only get better.

And Cliff got his 25-30 minutes he deserves per game...at last! Cliff will produce the same results on average every game as the last two games if he gets time on the court. I actually thought Coach should have subbed him in even earlier in both halves. His foot work is still not very good (like a big puppy who has yet to grow into his body) but the "motor" has plenty of power. I like the fact that he comes off the bench instead of starting. Feed the Big Red Dog 25+ minutes / game and he will perform with consistency and give us a chance to do great things this season.

This team can shoot and the crowned prince of the shooters is BG. What a stroke, and what ice in the veins! And we are just learning how to get him open and he is just now learning to slide to the open spot on the court to catch and shoot. But the team as a whole are better shooters than we have had in the past. And we still have Svi who will light it up before the end of the year in a game or two. Watch as the free throw percentage gradually rises in Feb and March.

Kelly and Jamari are the hustle guys who are the most disruptive and just great athletes. Kelly's rebounding has improved vastly and his D is becoming a problem for whomever he guards. He is a combo RR (on-the ball) and Mario (in-the lane) on D, but bigger and stronger. These guys play with a chip on their shoulder, big time, and are now channeling and focusing on how to use it to higher performances within their skill ranges.

Perry is a stud who just needs to play less as a classical back-to-the-basket big and more away from the basket, like Niang, and FINALLY coach is moving him into positions on the court where he can be more effective. His D and rebounding are improving too, and he is a winner who wants to make his team better. Perry should shoot more outside shots, and well as drive and shoot. Making 15-18 footers, and the occasional three is not fool's gold but a high percentage play for Perry.

Wayne is the most underrated and under appreciated player on this team. He is a tough, tough player on both ends of the floor who seems to come up with the right play at the right time in every game (his first three got us going and gave us confidence early in the UT game - like a lot of games this year). Wayne is the ultimate team player and a wonderful complement to his teammates, doing just enough on D and O to make sure we stay on track. He is the key glue guy on this group of Jayhawks.

Landen and Hunter are good players who would start on most teams and will make more contributions this year and next as they wait for their turn. Very solid backups and great team players as well.

New Look Hawks...turn 'em loose Coach, we are on a roll and this team is getting better!

PS the kid can shoot...believe it, but he can pass and play D too.

Svi will be a different person and a different player next year.

The cultural and bb gap is huge and he just wants to be part of the team and fit it, like a lot of young guys (re what Self said about Wiggins fitting in and he as a #1 pick).

We forget what it was like to be 17 (junior in high school)...to be the true Svi bb player, need to wait until next year!

Frank - best, most consistent player and best athlete, best dribbler
Jamari - second best athlete and X factor energy guy, best post passer
Perry - best all round player and best scorer and best g0-to-guy
Wayne - best perimeter defender and best glue guy, best passer
Kelly - best potential this year, best slasher, best confidence on D, disrupter
Cliff - MVP on this team, best 6th man in nation, best rebounder
Devonte - best leader and best point guard, best decision-maker
Brannen - best shooter. best confidence on O
Svi - best potential next year, best basketball reflexes
Landon - best big man bruiser
Hunter - best big man shooter

These are good builds and astute observations.

I think the baseline for Coach Self at the start of his career was inferior talent and 3-4-5 year student athletes, very tough D and everyone learning his system over time. No compromise, big 10 type ball, feed the post, always playing the percentages with extreme mental and physical toughness. Not a bad formula to be sure...

The team and players have morphed over the past few years thanks to his great staff and recruiting and the KU brand to more OAD and TAD athletes.

They do not always have time to learn the system on O and D, so we need a simplified, accelerated version, with a little more free lance to showcase talent. More 3s as everyone has noted (20/game?) and more variety (full court pressure, an occasional trap zone, exploit match ups, etc.

We are getting there but we have a very stubborn coach and we like that!

Cliff will be fine and the reset idea is more accurate than my idea of unwarranted punishment for being out of position on D, and being benched for confusion due to over-coaching.

We all agree we have the best program and the best coach but we need to challenge the status quo on pressing D and stale hi-lo O and getting the most out of each player, each game to peak in Feb-March.

We need that perfect mix of experience and talent, stars and role players, deep bench and not too much "system" offense.

We need another conf title and final four and Sat's game with UT will tell us if that is realistic or we will have to wait another year.

Rock Chalk!

To all the KU sportswriters and fans:

Cliff's performance in the game and his contribution to the team is directly linked to his time on the court. It is a nice spin to lavish praise on Coach Self as the master motivator and he deserves credit where credit is due. However...

In the case of Alexander the Great, if his "lack of motor" was not related to effort or attitude, then his riding the pine in the second half of the ISU game had little to do with Cliff's motor and a lot to do with Coach Self stubbornness.

There is a direct correlation between Cliff's minutes played and his production and the team's chances of winning. There is not a direct correlation between his being benched and suddenly "learning his lesson" and "firing up his motor" to be more high performing in the next game against OU.

If Cliff had played 8-10 min more in the ISU game, he would have had a double-double and given us a better chance to win that important road game. His performance in the OU game is linked to more court time, not motivational psychology, or learning his lesson on D or applying the coaching lessons of the Great Motivator.

One of our head coach's best (but also worst) qualities is his stubbornness. Make them play D as well as O and make them hustle at all times and play with passion. Great! Most of the dominant big men like Cliff have never had to exert such effort b/c they have always been so vastly superior at the high school level. This is a good thing to learn for the young players (remember the Morris twins as Freshmen?), and our Coach does it exceedingly well.

However, in the case of the Big Red Dog, there is no problem of desire or effort or attitude or any of the classical problems prima donna athletes coming from high school to college might have as they adjust to the game at the next level.

Cliff may have (like all of us!) trouble focusing at all times, on both ends of the court, in practice as well as in the games. One has to train muscle memory and concentration to go hard all the time and to understand where to be on the court and how to play each situation and individual opponent. Not every player, especially the bigs have the capacity to get it immediately like Jo-Jo did.

But in the case of Cliff, he will learn by playing or with a quick sit down reminder - not an entire half in a key game! This decision is an illustration of Coach Self's weaknesses, not his strengthes. And the new paradigm of OAD and TAD players, as opposed to the gradual lessons learned over 3-4 years in the program. Everything is now accelerated and the rookies are still the best players (even with a not yet maximized "motor").

Cliff's learning curve will go up exponentially with more court time, in all aspects of his game, including his on-the-ball D.

Production per minutes played is the key stat for Cliff, not psychology of punishment on the pine for :"lack of motor". Look at this indicator: minutes played / O and D production. / KU chances to win the game, and you will see that Cliff is our best and only chance to over-achieve this year in the Big 12 and the Dance.

Unless there is injury or foul trouble, we must see the Big Red Dog 25-30 min per game going forward. That is the key lesson of the ISU and OU games, and their outcomes.

RCJH!

Good discussion by all.

Is the issue with Cliff really lack of effort? Cliff is a competitor and wants to play well and win. He has lots of energy but not necessarily the knowledge/skill/ingrained reflex to go hard on D (or in practice) all the time, every possession.

We love Coach Self and always have his back. Of course, if Cliff is slacking or dogging it on D, let him ride the pine. But maybe he was he just out of position and confused/lack of concentration on D, rather than laziness or lack of effort?

With more minutes, gradually moving from 15-20 to 25-30 min/game, Cliff's play will improve on both ends of the floor, and all aspects of the game (especially D and passing).

He seems to be a fine young man with a good attitude, but maybe a poor work ethic b/c he has always been so dominant and physically superior.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with his motor, he is a high energy guy (lots of highlight moments already - remember "the dunk"!) Only injury or fouls should keep him on the pine for an entire half in a game like the one we lost yesterday.

Lastly, Cliff is a phenomenal rebounder and our best (only) low post player whi can make a difference - more minutes for Cliff starting tomorrow!!!

This is the title of Tom Keegan's article: *Thinking longterm, Self benches Alexander in second half * published right after the game.

Nice effort to cover for HCBS, and stay positive, but I say, nonsense.

Coach : Play the Big Red Dog NOW (even if is not playing good D). His motor is plenty good and if your rotation is designed "give us the best chance to win", then Alexander the Great is by far the best option. Unless he is hurt, limiting his minutes in this way is a very poor decision at this point in the season.

Coach : stop being so damn stubborn and pig-headed about young players not doing exactly what you want them to do, in the way you want them to do it.

Cliff is by far our best rebounder and post player. He has a nice touch on his jumper inside 15 feet and his improvement will come through playing more minutes. He needs more game time, not less. What is going on?

HEM: good remarks, as usual.

Why did Alexander only play 14 min? Coach Self in his post game interview: "he did not have a motor tonight" - com'on man! He surely had a better motor than the other bigs...

Cliff: 6 rebounds and 6 points in 14 min
Landon: 0 rebounds and 0 points in 19 min
Jamari: 2 rebounds and 2 points in 15 min

Play Alexander more minutes!!!

Transition D was as poor as I have seen at KU in this game - embarrassing. We were surprised and poorly prepared, and did little to adjust after the first couple of run outs.

Coach burned all his time outs with 7-8 min left in the game. Was that really necessary?

Again, no O flow and in spite of good guard play, no creativity or game time adjustments in our stale offensive sets. Watch ISU and OU in their O and learn!

KU shot more threes than ISU! And we out-rebounded them 44-33!

We lost this one in transition D (+ 20 points for ISU in transition, mostly lay ups) and at the free throw line 10-26 FTA.

Discouraging but no time to panic. ISU was favored by 3.5 and won by 5...game on!

I would be interested in reading an analysis of Ellis vs Niang as individual players (basketball skills), athletes (strengths and limitations), team mates (not as good buddies but how they make their teams better...). Thanks.

Open message to HCBS and staff: Svi needs to see the court today! Major minutes and make sure he gets a chance to play well (run a couple of plays just for him, for example). The family weekend for this young future (all conference next year) star needs to be very positive and reassuring.

Svi: you got off to a great early start and you will be back in the rotation by year end, helping us to another conf title, a deep run in the Dance and an explosive sophomore year at KU. No worries...you are the man. Have fun in front of mom & dad this afternoon, and a wonderful family gathering a long way from home.

Fans lucky enough to be in the Fieldhouse today: a special warm Jayhawk welcome to Lawrence, KS for the Mykailuks!

Comments for the 2015 Big 12 season pecking order, why I picked this order and not another one - remember to keep it short:
UT - best talent
KU - best program
OU - best defense
ISU - best offense
WV - best intangibles
OSU - best mojo (vs KU)
BU - best talent (2)
TCU - best hunger to win a few
KSU - third best in a small state
TT - best doormat

BIG 12 BB PREDICTIONS - invitations to all to name the 2015 regular season pecking order (no comments, just the list):
UT
KU
OU
ISU
WV
OSU
BU
TCU
KSU
TT

These are very good observations by all.

If Cliff is playing 30 min a game and producing at his potential (13 pts and 9 boards and 2 blocks /game), then he will be our best player by March and we will have a chance to win another conf title and (with luck) make it to the Final Four. If not, then we will finish behind TX (maybe OU as well), and be a second tier top 20 team (round of 16 or 8 would be the limit, similar to last year sans JoJo). Conf play will be brutal and physical.

Cliff will have to stay out of foul trouble and stay focused (he fades out sometimes like when he missed the long 2 on O and then came sprinting out to double team at the top of the key on D and his man got a very easy basket resulting in a four point swing against Temple in 10 seconds - a key turning point in the game in the second half).

Chalk it up to youth, but more minutes requires more concentration for longer periods of time. We need Cliff to do it now, in (almost) every game, and get better each passing week, just like JoJo did last year until he got hurt.

Alexander the Great has the most (NBA OAD) potential on this team and must carry the load inside this year for KU. Tall order for a freshman to do all the heavy lifting inside against quality bigs game in, game out. Good news is that he can and will do it if he stays healthy and can stay on the court and stay focused 25-30 min/game. Cliff has more talent than T-Rob on O and can become the beast on D if he plays with reckless abandon. He will improve especially on the O glass and get more easy put backs in Feb and March.

Concerning 3 point shooting, agreed that if we do not average 18-20 threes a game, then we will have no chance against elite competition. As HEM pointed out in an earlier post, we have averaged 14-17 max under Coach Self over the years. Can this change in Jan-March 2015? Probably not, but it probably should. Self is loosening the reins (a little).

We must penetrate more and pitch back out (dribble drive) rather than pass the ball around the perimeter, then inside and back out, to get the open three look (hi-lo offense). Can we do this? Probably not, but we should try it more. It is not our standard offense and not standard Self ball. Watch the way The Mayor or Kruger or Cal coach the offense...

Oubre is a true slasher and his increased min will help if he can learn when to drive & shoot, and when to drive & pitch. Mason is getting better at this. We need Graham back soon. Seldon can do this better too. But again, it is not our standard offense - we need to learn to penetrate better, even if it is just a couple of dribbles forward, towards the basket

But the really disheartening news from the Temple game was our D. We already knew that we were exposed against Length & Athletic high caliber physical type teams, and just do not have the horses in the front court to compete straight up (man-to-man) on the O or the D side against big, long teams (re KY and TX).

Now we saw again that we cannot stay in front of ultra quick penetrating guards (re Temple game, and first half of FL game, and second half of Utah game). With Frank and Devonte in the game together, we do much better on D against these types of teams, but they are small guards and Graham is out for at least a few more weeks, maybe more.

Kent State will not be a problem or tell us anything, but UNLV and the first trip to Baylor will give us an early indication if our hopes for another great season is in the making...Happy New Year! Rock Chalk!

@REHawk Agreed,

20 threes a game on average would be good for this team but KU average over past few years is less than 16 three point attempts per game...and shoot them earlier in the possession if you are open, this could be the best shooting team (re: 3 point and FT percentage) than we have had in a long, long time

Concerning Self speak, like all ferocious competitors, his goal is to play well and win, better yet, win even if you do not play well.

Coach Self is a fiery guy, much, much more so that his press conferences (re: locker room halftime "motivational speech" against FL and the team's performance since then - Self speak, 'yes, we challenged them')

Self teaches and coaches the high percentage play and overall scheme to give his team the best chance to win, every game, every year, and there is no one better than he is at grinding out W after W, conf title after conf title, with consistency and excellence

What is interesting is how much/little does a coach adjust to his current roster, and to the competition, to allow changes which are counter-intuitive, or even against his coaching philosophy, at the core.

The core of Coach Self has never been outside/in. It is not full court pressure or 40 minutes of hell or trapping zone defense or 25 threes a game or play 10 guys....(the list goes on a long way)

Coach Self is rather inflexible and we like that rigor, but does it sometimes lead to good but not great teams?

Is it possible that this team should play outside-in as some have suggested? Duke shoots lots of threes but is traditionally even more upset prone than KU. Our coach would never allow one of his teams (including this one) to live or die by the three point shot.

Without strong post play this year, Coach Self is having to adjust and we will see how flexible - and successful - he will be with this group.

Beware of Texas!

@ drgnslayr good post, however...a couple of thoughts
Hunter is not athletic enough to compete consistently at this level, but we love his effort and he will make a difference in a couple of games this year
Cliff is a OAD guaranteed and is already a lock for lottery pick, and could be our best player by March (if yes, Final Four for KU)
Rock Chalk!

KU was fortunate to win today's game against Utah. But they have been fortunate to win a couple of games in the recent streak of consecutive victories against tough opponents.

A loss today would have been one of the worst 'blown games with a huge lead' in the history of the program. But we did not lose and 'almost' does not count in the Loss column. Very good Utah team and coach!

What happened in the second half against the Utes was the same thing that happened in the first half against UF, and all game long against UK.

Bad news: We tend to panic when the shots are not falling and our offensive schemes are not sufficient with the players we have on the rooster this year to run the traditional Hi-Lo / Inside-Out which has been our staple since Coach Self has taken the reigns.

Good news: we are tough and determined and team chemistry is excellent, especially this early in the season. Bravo to the coaches and the players to set egos aside and focus on team goals. Our defense is already good and will become excellent by February.

We lack the dominate post presence and have no 7-footers. Our defense needs to stay in front of driving guards and wings: there is no second line of defense where we have been spoiled by rim protectors over the past few years.

Our offense cannot penetrate by simply moving the ball around the perimeter to get angles for entry passes into the post. Even when the ball goes inside, against tall and long defenders, we are weak and ineffective.

We need some new stuff - a variation of the dribble drive offense - and we have now moved past denial and have started addressing this issue publicly (re: Coach Self's press conferences before and after this game).

Landon is our tallest and heaviest player but he lacks the athleticism to compete at the highest level. Solid talent but limited this year on offense and defense and rebounding and rim protecting. Good sub!

Cliff is our best pure post player but he needs to learn the game more to be effective. By year end, he will be our best player. Good potential but his on the ball defense is not good. Great rebounder!

Jamari is the most athletic among the 'bigs' but is still a little awkward on the court. He has only played a few years of organized ball. If he can maintain focus, he will be a key contributor. Great energy guy!

Perry is our most valuable post player and like the others is a great competitor. He has strong offense skills and has improved his defense and rebounding. We need him to average 15 and 8 a game, every game, which is key to having a great season!

Kelly is coming on and I like his ability to guard and drive the ball to the hoop. He is starting to embrace the physical side of the game and will be a major contributor by conference play. Play him near the basket!

Brennan likes to play and has (finally) understood that he needs to guard and rebound as well as shoot to see the court. What a pure stroke - let it rip every time he is open 3-5 three point attempts/game!

Svi is young and will have his moments this year, but will not be able to compete in extremely physical games. Next year he will be a star!

Wayne is our natural leader and has our back. He is strangely inconsistent but is a talent and already has an NBA body. We need him to score from the outside but especially to drive to score, and rebound. and defend with consistency to win. Key player - needs to be at least second team all-league to make the team great!

Frank is a very tough competitor and his only weakness is his height and relative lack of experience (especially as a point guard). If Frank goes down to injury, we are toast. Let him play 38 minutes a game but not always be the one to initiate the offense. Phenomenal athlete!

Devonte will be missed terribly. If he had played today, that very impressive comeback by Utah would have likely been nipped in the bud. His leadership and ball handling will be missed a lot. Come back soon!

Hunter is out of the rotation and likely gone next year, and Conner is already gone. Two open scolies for next year (plus Cliff who is OAD).

Now, to end on a few positive notes:

Free throws! It has been a long time since a KU team has knocked them down like this group has done the last few games. To be continued!

Defense! Out team defense is really good and could be/will be (barring injury) great by February. Watch the defensive rotations - very impressive progress from game to game!

Rebounding! Although we lack a dominate center and have no 'footers', our team rebounding is strong, especially Alexander the Great, Mason and Oubre with Ellis and Traylor close behind as better than average.

Guts! This team is tough and determined. They manage adversity well as we have seen early on. Good omen for conference road games and post-season play in March.

Coaching! This year we will see how flexible our great head coach is with the offense. He earns the big bucks and is a Hall of Famer...in Self we trust...show us the innovative thinking and tweak us to better production!

In summary: another great win for the Jayhawk nation against another strong opponent - Rock Chalk!

The boys grew up last night and proved what we have been thinking since the start of the year: they are tough and solid and winners, top to bottom, left to right, with no real superstar yet a TEAM in the making.

At last we saw some dibble drive, aggressive offense instead of trying to pass it around the perimeter to get an open look. Seldon, Mason and Oubre all have the potential to get into the lane and make it happen.

At last we saw some aggressive rebounding and ball hawking and full court pressure. The trapping in the first half was too slow and UF is a fast and talented team (great point guard play by the Gators). Great passing by UF and a lesson in how to beat pressure. Impressive!

Wonderful team work by KU on defense the second half and Seldon had his coming out party and finally played like an All-American lottery pick. He is such a stud and looked smooth with his pull up jump shot and powerful in his drives to the rim. We need him to lead and make plays when the offense breaks down to become an elite team.

Mason is a bulldog and even with an off night keeps fighting and competing at the highest level. What a fearless player and great athlete!

Graham is a leader and has ice in the veins. He and Frank have the point guard position locked up for the next few years and they will get better and better at finishing the game (already good beyond their years).

These three guards carried the team and played most of the minutes together the second half of the second half. Go small and stay in front of the penetrating guards on defense - first half problem solved. Go coaching and good adjustments. And they want the ball at the end of the game and like to shoot the pressure free throws. STUDS! (and still young)

Alexander the Great had a couple of rebounds which made me jump out of my chair and (almost) spill my beer. And that athletic move in the paint to score with the finger roll to start the come back demonstrates his ceiling is very, very high. 100% guaranteed lottery pick OAD, And a smooth soft shot from 15 feet + free throw accuracy, excellent form.

The bench players at the end were up and shouting and joy was on their faces, especially Greene, Svi and Kelly - nice to see - a team is born and even if they were (are) frustrated with playing time, they are into winning more at least for now.

The KU boys became men last night and the home crowd helped to bring us back from the depths of despair and we found another gear we did not yet know we had. The players were smiling on the court and having fun, even during the long come back! No panic, no worries, Rock Chalk!

Now we now we can win against small penetrating guards and a very tough defense and against hot shot making from 3 (first half UK played very, very well). Bend but do not break, keep the faith and keep working and good things will happen eventually. These are the muscle memory anchors for our players.

Can we do it against length and height and superior athletic skills (UK, TX, AZ...?). TX will be a huge challenge this year and even with their leader out with a short term wrist injury, they played the mighty Wildcats well and tough in their building.

Another great year of highly entertaining basketball for KU fans is underway. Watch out for TX. Rock Chalk!

Good points - KU D is back and improved (last year was an exception) and is always excellent. But O is stale and uninspired for several years running, and we do not have the personnel to feed the post as a first option against superior teams this year. We are too small to compete in the paint against UK or maybe even TX.

We need new wrinkles and more dribble drive. Not more set plays in an already complex system. And we need to shoot more 3s this year. I think our shooters this year are average (30-35%) and Greene and Svi are better than average (35-40%). Good points in earlier posts about the 12 foot pull up jumper game.

The "team" game of less talented players beating superior talent is valid if the players are staying 3-5 years to learn the intricacies of the O. But the OAD players will never "get it" in a few short months. So we need something beyond the system and learning it well and executing it.

We have seen this is the best way to have good consistent team play but the limits of the system has been one of the reasons for relatively poor tourney play and play against superior length and talent.

We have seem some defensive innovations with more pressure and trapping and forcing turnovers (even if we give up a few easy baskets). More risk and more intensity is good for KU and good for the D. It can also be a formula for the O. Coach Self is just starting to implement this new more aggressive style on O.

Rock Chalk!

Also -

When Perry dunked, we saw that hidden raw talent and explosiveness.

When Seldon passed last night we saw leadership and selflessness.

When Landon hit the reserve lay up, we saw Jo-Jo footwork and great potential for this year and next and next.

When Svi had that 3 minute stretch, we saw how he will contribute HUGE this year and next.

When Greene went for 17, we see the scoring potential of a 15 /game guy.

When Kelly matched up against UK, we saw the skill and talent in a mirror,

Alexander the Great is better than T-Rob and will be the key player in Feb and March, Can he learn to stay on the floor 25 + min / game?

Traylor is a STUD. Put him in anytime against anyone as the disruptor.

Graham is the LEADER...he will win us a few games this year a lot of games in Y2-4.

Hunter will come into two games this year in conference play and win them for us,,,and at least 2-3 next year as well. He might play in Europe.

Coach Self and assistants have a plan: the 2-3 year dones and a mixed model of UK and KU - only concern is need to upgrade the Offense.

roxck Chalk!

Mason is a very good player and a tough high value competitor. Do not underestimate his contribution and athleticism and place on this team. His ONLY weakness is height and maybe youth. He is getting better and is a STUD.

KU as a team cannot be a poor man's UK, We need to be a team like the ones we have had over the past decade but without the 3-4 year players. This is a major adjustment in the OAD era. How to play sophisticated O and D with newbies?

The answer is not the OAD but the two and three year players who have superior talent but need to learn the game, and specifically the KY game.

We are short and fragile against length and height and great athletes. We compensate by pressuring on D (GOOD JOB COACH SELF, at long last) and being scrappy and tough on the boards, and smart on O.

But we have to let the 3 fly 15-20 times a game (and not just at the end of the shot clock) and make 35% and 70% free throws. If we do this, we will be good this year and next...ROCK CHALK!

Good content posts.
Good news: D is back and active and we are pressing/pressuring the ball more full court and higher out...: I love our D with this team.
Bad news: O is stale and high-low is useless against long, athletic defenders. Dribble-drive is more modern and efficient.
Coaching changes have improved recruiting and D but O has moved backwards over the past three years.
And...we do have shooters on the perimeter (all the guards + Perry can stroke it with average results Greene and Svi being above average). Shoot 15 threes a games (drive and dish) and make 5 in these elite competition games and we will be a better offensive team against length and superior competition.
Mid-range game is important and needs to be used more in spite of the percentages argument...especially against athletic length. Good comments about having forgotten the fundamentals of good ball from 10 feet in on O. We can hit these shots for a high percentage.
This issue with the O against length and height is not new and a pattern (flaw?) in Self's outstanding coaching philosophy.
Rock Chalk!

Sad to be talking about next year in Nov. Truth be told, our guys are hard workers and put forth effort but the difference in talent level last night was crystal clear. UK might have the top two teams in the country.
But...a program like KU should NEVER get beat like that (or like TT game).
Bottom line: our guard play is just not very good (no point playmaker, no shut down defenders...no big time scorers...), our wing players are neither drivers nor shooters (foot work is very weak overall and shooting the three is timid and not in Self's philosophy) and our post play is good against equivalent talent but cannot elevate against superior players.
I love our guys and our team and our coach. But last night was men against boys, college against HS, NBA talent against Euro players...we can still win the big 12 and make a run, but we are a long. long way from a title any time soon.

One last thought: Perry's only chance of playing at the next level is to be a wing a sling the three with consistency and confidence. He needs to play like Niang. No way he will ever compete at the highest level inside the paint.

KU got beat by a better team with better players and better athletes, plain and simple. But our performance was still weak and uninspired.
How many rebounds did we lose to not blocking out? And how may times did the ball get grabbed right out of our hands?
Yes, they are bigger, stronger, better and deeper...but we did not really compete the way we should have.
This was also true last year...our guys look tentative and scared and not like warriors with confidence and fight.
Is Self over-coaching his team? Are we overthinking? Or are we simply not very talented against superior opponents?
Our best chance this year is press and run and jump and shoot and create chaos. There is no way we can match up one-to-one with UK and possibly others (like TX, AZ, etc.). Need to play very scrappy team ball on O and D and let our shooters throw it up behind the line 15 times a game.