@JhawkAlum Let this also be a lesson for this board. Both here and at the other site I have seen us year after year turn what is a good prospect into the man child who will lead us to the promised land (NC). When that doesn't happen we blame him for not being the player we had hoped he would be.
sfbahawk
281 posts
@drgnslayr I met a KU alumnus a couple of years ago. He is a doctor in NC. He said he and others call Duke graduates "Dookwes". As in "at Duke we do this" and "at Duke we do that" as if that was all that counted.
I liked a non call a couple of plays before the replay. First a Duke player gets a rebound but is on only 1 foot. He hops to gain balance and nothing is called. As the play progresses a Duke guard drives the baseline. The replay to show what a great play by Duke followed clearly showed that his foot was on the baseline. Obviously there was no whistle, but more disturbing was that none of announcers seemed to be bothered by the obvious lack of a call.
@JayHawkFanToo Just the opposite. Owens played him the second semester so that the spring of 1966 was his first semester playing. He did that because they had a very good team (should have gotten the win over Texas Western). His last semester of eligibility was the fall of 1968 where I saw him play against what was the worst D1 team I have ever seen, Syracuse. They were so bad that they didn't even try much to score. They would pass the ball back and forth until KU stole a pass and went for a layup. Rinse and repeat over and over.
Jo Jo has always been my favorite Jayhawk. He was a fantastic defender and a guard that could not be stopped by a press. Beyond that he was one of the most mature college students that I have ever seen. He was a man amongst boys on a college court.
@drgnslayr If the NCAA clears Cliff after all of this time, I don't think that they would want to dig much deeper. The NCAA can do anything they want and don't appear to be bothered by looking stupid. On the other hand this is different that the Rose situation with Memphis. In that case they supposedly got later information that got them to take another look and declare him ineligible and thus vacate Memphis wins. In this case after the initial clearance they got information that caused them raise questions and KU sat Cliff. To come back again after explicit clearance would demonstrate that the current investigation was screwed up and they look really bad.
Better to let sleeping dogs lie.
@Wigs2 The players who used PEDs put a lot of butts in the seats in the 1990s and gave the sportswriters who vote a lot to write about. Since butts=$ MLB looked the other way and still does.
@ralster How many of the people who voted for him thought he would lose yesterday?
@jaybate-1.0 The NBA only has a small number of actual 5s. Most big men are really 4s.
@approxinfinity I have had the same problem as dylans over the past few weeks with chrome and firefox. I have switched to chrome because the flash extensions on firefox never consistently work. I also had a problem about a week ago where it seemed that the css had a problem. The time delta on the "foo posted about ..." section did not appear and the reply button was dead. Happened on both browsers. I cleared the chrome caches and it still happened. Tried again a couple of hours later and everything was fine.
Keep up the great work. Well all owe you.
I wasn't paying total attention to the McD game last night but I thought that an announcer said that of the 24 kids in the 2013 game 5 are in the NBA. Did I hear correctly? If correct, my question is how many of the remaining 19 declared for the NBA? If there were more that declared it would appear that they got bad advice. On the other hand if none or only a couple of the other 19 declared then one might conclude that the OAD problem is not as big a deal as we think.
@drgnslayr What is Brannen's attitude? Good question. We get a glimpse into his father's attitude:
“It’s a tough situation,” Jeffrey Greene said. “You got to fight for everything you want, but who wouldn’t want that for their kid? This process has made him stronger, it’s made him into a young man."
Does his own father disrespect Brannen's ability?
His dad recognizes that if Brannen can't get minutes while competing in college how in the world will he compete later. That is one thing that many young men whose reasoning powers are not yet fully developed seem to forget. All of these kids state that their lifelong dream (and not a very long life yet) is to play in the NBA. Believe me it is not the lifelong dream of any coaches and gms that X will play in the league.
Competition is the name of the game in the NBA or any other part of life. If a kid demands a certain amount of pt and it is granted it will most likely that this will be his last demand playing hoops. I'm sure that most OADs think that they are the best at their position or any other position. They will learn soon enough that that is not the case. Any coach that guarantees playing time is building a nice bomb for his team. What are the other players going to think if someone demonstrates in practice that they do not deserve the promised pt?
@drgnslayr Nice idea but the time with Lucas would come out of the 20 hours per week of countable athletically related activity.
@drgnslayr The following are excerpted from http://www3.nd.edu/~ncaacomp/countable_hours.shtml ↗
"Student-athletes may engage in only 4 hours per day and 20 hours per week of countable athletically related activities. A countable athletically related activity is any activity with an athletics purpose involving student-athletes that occurs at the direction of or supervised by one or more institutional coaching staff members (including strength and conditioning coaches).
Outside the Playing Season - Academic Year
In sports other than football:
Student-athletes may be required to participate in up to 8 hours per week of required strength and conditioning activities and individualized skill instruction.
No more than 2 hours of the permissible 8 can consist of individualized skill instruction. No more than four student-athletes may be involved in skill instruction at all sites combined at any one time. Student-athletes must be given 2 days off from required activities per week."
Note the 2 hours per week outside the season and the total of no more than 4 players at any one time. This seems also to apply to film study since that is explicitly called out for footbal players to be limited to 2 hours per week in the off season.
These are limits that no one had back in the day. If John Wooden had to live under these restrictions I very much doubt that he would have taken the time to teach people how to correctly tie their shoes. On course organized weight training was minimal back then so he wouldn't have had to account for times with Hudy.
While the time limits aren't the only reason players don't box out or throw a decent bounce pass, we seem to forget about the restrictions. If a coach says "shoot free throws until you hit 10 in a row" and that takes 2 hours that is 2 hours out of 20 during the season. I'm sure that it still happens some but all you need is 1 disgruntled player complaining to his buds back home and all of a sudden we have a problem.
@truehawk93 TaShawn Thomas of OU was granted a waiver to play without sitting because his coach at Houston was replaced by Kelvin Sampson. It seems that a waiver is required. I don't know how many or what percentage are granted.
@DoubleDD I keep telling myself not to do this but I always do. So Duke doesn't run its offense through the bigs and because of this Coach K is not a bonehead. The implication is that since Self does run most of his offense inside/out he is a bonehead. KU has a boneheaded coach. Why do you want KU to have a bonehead for a coach? By the way, Self has actually beaten Coach K. How could that possibly happen? How did Duke lose to Mercer last year? Coach K must have been unable to adjust to what Mercer threw at them.
Why do the color analysts always talk about having to work the ball inside/out. They are obviously boneheads too. My God the world is filled with boneheads.
Name 2 successful college coaches that have moved to the NBA and have been successful. I ask for 2 because I can't think of 1 but then my memory isn't what it used to be and I may have forgotten the 1. What was the last NBA job that Coach K was considered for? In fact, since he is always considered how about only 3. Coaching in college and in the NBA are a lot different. College coaches work within programs where the talent turns over constantly as people graduate and/or turn pro. Continuity is worth a lot in those cases. In the NBA there aren't any coaches who make more money then their best players. The game is faster and everyone who is there has been through a filter which discards all but the very best. Not even UK has that. Coaching in the NBA is not an Xs and Os game. It is mainly one of managing egos. Most NBA coaches are former players or assistants who have had no college coaching experience.
Speaking of the lack of system in the NBA. Other than winning all of those championships what is Phil Jackson known for? I guess the answer can't be the triangle offense because that would be a system and no successful NBA coach runs one. The real answer must be zen.
I have nothing against shooting threes. I have nothing against scheming to shoot threes. What I do have a problem with is the statement that Self does not like threes, doesn't have plays to get them and is unable to adjust. What Self does not like, along with most other coaches, is bad threes. Self has stated that he doesn't think that a three is bad because the shooter misses. His statement is that a three is good or bad the second it leaves the shooter's hand. He does pull people who take threes when they should not. One of the boneheaded color analysts said yesterday that making a stupid play will get players a seat on the bench and that being pulled makes an impression on players because they want to be on the court.
How was Bill Self able to acquire his rather gaudy record at 4 schools with his total inability to make adjustments? That must be because the ranks of college coaches are populated by people even more boneheaded than he. Or not.
The fact that KU has lost to teams where some player goes off proves absolutely nothing. When that happens it is usually because said player shoots waaaay over his average. Most of the time that was done within a system with the coach deciding to ride the hot hand.
@HighEliteMajor Do you really think that Izzo schemes to shoot threes more than Self. They take the same types of threes we do: when they are open with the occasional forced three that usually does not go in. Someone suggested that we should keep cranking them even if cold since we might break out of a slump sooner. Is there any evidence that Izzo might contemplate that strategy for more than milliseconds?
Duke offense leans toward the three much more than does Self. There is no question there. However they won today by going inside. Jones got a couple blocked but kept going.
@HighEliteMajor Izzo was interviewed right after the first half, When asked what they could improve on he said we shot too many threes. Shot them too quick too.
@BeddieKU23 Agree with most of what you wrote. However I can't picture Stein as a top 10. He has no offensive game inside or out. UK didn't need that from him with Towns. I can see him as a late first or second round as a defensive backup. But you never know what some NBA gm will do. Possibly someone thinks he will be another uni-brow.
@drgnslayr If the Koch brothers are his heroes as someone stated here, he will fit in perfectly in Texas.
@KUinLA If beating Bill Self is that high on the list of qualifications then Texas should have kept Barnes. He beat Self more often than either of the other two. If your response is that they only played him once, remember you can draw an infinite number of trend lines through 1 point.
@HighEliteMajor Why is "recruit to that system and understand you will get beat by pure talent" brilliant when when it is blatantly wrong? We have gone over and over that the best team does not always win the NC (and that's all that counts). By the way, talent means more than dunks and threes. Sometimes it even involves defense. Now if a team is the most talented it does have a very good chance of winning.
AZ just got toasted by a system team. When did Duke drop from the ranks of a system team. They run basically the same offense and defense that Coach K has always run. Now that system involves shooting many more threes than does KU but who really thinks that he rolls the ball on the court and has everybody do their own thing. You may want KU to use the Duke system but that's a different story.
Even UK hasn't done much with only OADs. They have had more experience in 2012 and this year then they did last year.
@DoubleDD I have to agree with much of what you said. Especially the part of about recruiting to your system. I do not agree that last years team oozed with mega talent. It oozed with mega potential. Wigs was an outstanding athlete and he brought very good one on one defensive skills unknown to most freshmen. How much time was spent discussing how he could not finish? He was also not dissimilar to Kelly this year. Great one minute and Caspars ghost the next. His takeover game was at the end of the year. Would we have been better to give him the ball at the start of the season and say "go getem"?
Selden was supposed to drive to the basket and be an excellent defender. I remember how the same crowd on the other site were giddy with anticipation about what he would do to Marcus Smart. Hasn't worked quite like that. Part of the problem may be HCBS, but a good part has to do with the grass and the other side of the fence.
Other than UK and Duke, what other teams have had OADs take them to the promised land? Generally what you see are coaches that run their systems whatever they are. If things go really bad in a game they may hand the ball to whomever their best player is and try to ride him. That usually ends in defeat. How have coach K, Izzo, Pitino, Ryan, etc. changed their games? Other than a tweak here of there I don't see it.
A few years ago everyone here saw Shaka Smart was the next great coach to turn the game around. Since his teams are good but not great.
@Wigs2 Trading one year of a OAD for one year of a grad student might be a good deal since the OAD probably has somewhat more skills. The downside is that the OAD will probably take 1/3 - 1/2 of the season to learn what it takes to play D1 ball. Let alone the skills, generally defensive, that go along with it. An additional advantage of the grad is that you have tape (shows how old I am) of him playing for 3 years against D1 competition. For the OAD you generally have tape of dunk after dunk against far inferior competition.
@wissoxfan83 Don't much believe in conspiracies and you are right about decisions in that time frame. Unfortunately the NCAA didn't think that was a bad call. They thought it was correct. It was good enough that the same ref was calling the game last night between OU and MSU.
One of my favorite plays last night involved a loose ball on the MSU side of the court above the key. An OU player was going for it and I thought would clearly get it. All of a sudden he stopped. Why you might ask? Because a MSU player grabbed him. Clear as a bell. MSU gets the ball and scores. What gets me is that officials can get bang bang charge and out of bounds calls correct a very high majority of the time and yet miss such blatant calls such as the goal tend and the grab. Both of which happen in clear view off all.
@JayhawkRock78 I can't remember any teams getting in trouble in regard to former players. The NCAA is concerned about interactions between former players and current or potential players. A former player is treated just like a big name alumni/backer as far as contact. Colleges hire former players and pay them big bucks (see Huggy Bear) so why would the NCAA want to do more?
@JayhawkRock78 Sigh. What in the world does pulling on a jersey in the lane when you are beat have to do with Timmons not telling his runners to pull on a jersey. If you don't think that there are some sharp elbows flying around when someone is boxed in and is trying to get out then I don't know what to say. Is that the way the rules are written? No. Does it happen? Yes. Are these people all dirty?
As far as the WVU kid. Do you really think that there were 10 people on earth outside of WVU supporters that thought that they would not get stomped? Charles Barkley spoke about the kid and said that if a coach were to use that to amp a team he would think he was nuts (not exactly a quote).
I'm not sure why I'm pissing you off but what the heck. Assuming that you played pickup basketball, did you call every foul on yourself when you went for a rebound and hit someones arm? If you dragged your foot pivoting, did you immediately give the ball to the other team? If not, why not?
I'm sorry that your home and cars are damaged by classless golfers but what does destroying property have to do any of this is a mystery to me.
@JayhawkRock78 Sorry. I was there from the fall of 1966 through spring of 1968
@JayhawkRock78 Wasted my time? Sonny Liston was like a 36-0 team when Ali went on a rant. Didn't seem to harm him. Larry Bird doesn't appear to have harmed his career and he was known as one of the best at trash. Not saying its great and nobody coaches it but is happens a lot and always has. If you can't back it up, you look like an idiot.
Cheating is rampant today. It always has been within parameters for each sport. You would obviously be appalled watching the NBA or NFL or MLB back in any day. Most players in any sport know what is "allowed" and what is not. Pulling on a jersey and undercutting someone on a layup are totally different and everyone knows that.
Why do you think they have referees and umpires? Why do you think that there aren't a lot of clean layups made during the NBA playoffs?
@JayhawkRock78 Those were the days of Jim Ryun, Karl Salb, Gary Ard, John Lawson, etc. I ran into a bunch of them when KU played Cal a couple of years ago out here.
Jim Ryun had many memorable moments but one that amazed me was in a preliminary in what I think was 1000 yards at the Big 8 indoor meet in KC. You had to finish in top 3 to qualify for next round. He was loping along and was in third with about 30 yards to go. He sensed someone coming behind him and it was like he dropped it about 2 gears and smoked everybody. Most of the other runners we going as fast as they could.
@JayhawkRock78 You mentioned HJ at KU. I was an equipment manager for the track team in the late sixties. We were having a duel meet against someone. The HJ was contested right outside of the equipment room. Turned out that the team was videoing each jump. The video showed that I was raising my right leg when one of our team jumped. I was totally surprised when I saw that since I didn't remember doing it.
@JayhawkRock78 I have never understood how a player stating that his team is going to beat their next opponent is bulletin board material. Now saying that "we're going to beat them because their team sucks and I will own anyone the put on me" is board material.
As far as the Morris boys, this is just trash talk. It happens all of the time. It may make the player to whom it is addressed play a bit harder, but at the same time it may make the talker play better so that they can justify the trash. I credit our bad 3 pt shooting against VCU as more of a factor than trash talking.
@ralster Those games are looked on by many as great for the school and kids. The school gets a nice paycheck and the kids get to play in AFH in front of 16000 people. They also get to play against some of the best players in the country. I have read more than one article about how this was something good that Roy started every year and that Self has continued.
@ZIG said: I did the search and guess what! Your kubuckets.com comment came up first in the list. Who is our seo guru?
@wissoxfan83 Withey played about 15 minutes against the Warriors the other night. Did reasonably well with rebounds. Blocked one shot I think. Hit a 12 footer from the baseline.
I have been unable to understand the Brandon Rush situation with the Warriors. He has a 2 ;year deal but hasn't played in 90% of their games. He hit a three last night against the Wizards and the crowd and announcers went slightly less than wild. It was like Christian Garrett scoring. Everybody on the team really likes him. According to the announcers coach Kerr would like to get him more minutes. He has been playing very well in practice (where have we heard that) but seems to lack confidence in the games. He is still a top 10% 3 pt shooter among active players. After his 3 he went hard to the basket and once again the announcers were quite happy about it.
@Crimsonorblue22 Don't know. I didn't know that he couldn't play for us. Taking @Lulufulu at his word. If he can't, I was just pointing out what upside is left.
@Lulufulu He may not be able to play but I can't imagine that he won't be able to practice. That is worth something given the restrictions on the hours that players can be coached.
@ralster Thanks for mentioning Izzo. "What are doing?" was exactly the question he asked one of his starters during the Virginia game when they took a bad shot shortly into the shot clock. What a horrid motivator.
@ParisHawk Why jump to the conclusion that anyone should be banned if they call for the coach to be fired? What do think that posters on sites dedicated to teams with 6 and 20 seasons do? They think that the coach is unable to win and they call for a new coach. When we get 10 point lists after 8 point lists after 6 point lists pointing out how a coach should change most of what he does including his assistants then what is wrong with calling for a new coach.
People can discuss anything that you want within the bounds of propriety . Based upon my post why did you jump to the conclusion that I was referring to HEM? I replied to Slayr and my main point dealt with the need for continuity. However, if a coach has to change his basic philosophy to win and he maintains that philosophy then why would you want him as the coach?
Lastly, what did my post have to do with the definition of terms? This isn't high school debate where the side that defines the terms usually wins. What is so illogical about the position that if you think that a person cannot do his job he should be let go?
@jaybate-1.0 One thing people haven't brought up much is the inability of the guards and sf to feed the post. Admittedly Landen Lucas could use stronger hands and he did miss a number of bunnies. On the other hand he is very good at getting post position and sealing his man. None of that means anything unless someone can deliver the ball.
That ability requires experience for most players who are not John Wall types. Although his name is a dirty word to HEM, Brady was very good at this and it is one of the things that kept him on the floor. That only happened when he was a junior and a senior.
One of the things that you pointed to is continuity. Everyone moans and groans that we should have more 3-4 year players. That is what most of the good teams with the exception of UK have. If you're going to drastically change from year to year then you might as well have OADs. TRob, the twins, Cole were hardly world beaters when they walked in the door. As they gained experience in general and with Self's offense in particular they became good or great. The loss of JoJo after one year was a greater loss than Markief leaving with Marcus. It left the pantry bare in the middle.
Self has tweaked his approach to take into account what people can do. Anyone who says differently has never seen Andrew Wiggins play for KU. He was given a green light to do what Self has allowed very few if any others to do. Svi is another example of someone who Self played early on who he did not pull because of missed 3s. He obviously thought that what he saw in practice would carry over to games. When it didn't the experiment stopped.
What Self has not done is change his basic offensive philosophy. He is continually developing a program and not a one year team.
What bothers me the most about these type of discussions is the lack of people with the courage of their convictions. Bill Self can't do this. Bill Self can't do that. Bill Self can't do the other thing. And most importantly Bill Self doesn't listen to ME. He isn't god but he either sucks or he doesn't. If you believe that he can no longer cut it then call for him to be fired. We could then talk about people who would want to be the coach of KU.
@DoubleDD Oh but you do. Good defense leads to turnovers and turnovers lead to either fast breaks and layups or at least to another possession to run whatever offense you have.
This in fact is one of the problems with the teams of the past 2 years. This year the defense did better at preventing the other team from scoring. However, it was not good enough to create turnovers and it is turnovers that have been the mainstay of the famous KU runs. We didn't have many runs this year.
@benshawks08 Oh boy! So Calipari says everything is great. His players play for each other for joy. That's rich since most posters on this site think that nothing comes out of Cal's mouth except lies. So is Cal showcasing his whole herd of players during the time of the year when they will get the most pub to show that they are ready for the league? Currently he has been playing a 7-8 man rotation. No more of the platoon bushwa. How do you know that those Mickey Ds at the end of the bench are happy as Cal tells the world that they are not really good enough?
That Bill Self is quite a slave master. What rage? Actually I have hardly seen Self as composed as he was yesterday. He even had a smile on his face a few times. I know, smiling is also a negative motivator.
Have you ever watched other coaches? Cal gets on his people like crazy. You must not remember last year when he threw about 1/2 of his team under the bus after the NIT loss.
Ever watch Roy? Dad gum he gets on people when they make mistakes. Think coach K is all giggles and grins? Have you ever seen him stare down a player in the huddle after a dumb move.
Have you read slayr's and others comments about coaches they have had? How the coaches rode them to perform well. How they disliked them until later in life when they realized that the coach was trying to get the best out of them.
You must really hate to watch football. Now there is a game where coaches really grind on players.
One thing to remember is that the success of the basketball team affects non Williams Fund contributions to KU. The success of the team keeps KU in the minds of the alumni. It makes it easier when the endowment people call.
@jaybate-1.0 That was an extremely moving entry about Bill Self and the team. One of if not your best. It shows the best of the KU basketball tradition. As far as coaches, many of us never appreciate the things that they do that never gets much press. I first saw KU basketball in 1966 and am very proud that Ted, Larry, Roy and Bill are not only great coaches but also great people.
At the end of the day the wins and championships are great, but it is the good people who are the most important.
@wissoxfan83 I have to agree with you. I find that after a KU loss this year that loss almost bothers me less than knowing that when I come here to read the opinions people will be dumping on each other. This may prove the adage that winning cures many ills but it is still disconcerting.
Somehow I am more affected by that this year on this site than I was on the "other" site. That may be because I find that it contains more chowder heads who I couldn't care less about.
@JayHawkFanToo While I think that UK's front line does give them an advantage, the current trend in the NBA is away from true centers and even from PFs who only bang the boards. There are only four or five true centers in the league and the PFs shoot threes. That is even more true in international ball.
@HighEliteMajor Of course a coach can affect a shooter's confidence level. However, you obviously think that the comment a coach makes in a press conference regarding relying on 3 pt shots in general has more affect than other interactions between the coach and the player both in practice as well as in individual conversations. And that this is true regardless of the coach's actions such as using the player during critical conversations. One thing that has never been pointed out is that none of us knows what is said or transpires during practice and in the locker room.
Having someone on the court as a threat means nothing if the opposing coach does not think that the threat will be used. That is only the case if that coach thinks that Self has confidence in Greene shooting and making the three. Why would Greene not think the same?
I find it very difficult to believe that Self trusts Greene more than Svi for defense, ball handling and passing. Other than Greene's abilities at the three throw line, if he does I would be more inclined to agree with KUinLA about his coaching. Greene does have another year on Svi in the KU system, but one could hardly guess that from the way he plays. Svi currently has a higher "basketball IQ" given his international experience and innate abilities.
Both Wayne and Kelly have also been quite hot from three and have now cooled off. Is this also because they have lost confidence due to Self's statement? I doubt that you would want to take that position since you and others have never thought highly about their abilities from three. This is especially true of Wayne.
Is Brannen the only one with such a fragile psyche? If so is that the person that you would want taking the shot at a critical moment such as down 2 to UK with 3 seconds left?
@HighEliteMajor You are correct that Svi is better at most things other than 3s. Removing Svi from the equation, that was exactly my point in a previous response to you. BG is out there to shoot 3s. When Self plays him at critical times such as the second half on Saturday, it is only because he has confidence that BG is the best 3 pt option. I am assuming that BG is not stupid and knows that he is not out there for his stellar defense. Therefore the infamous "fools gold" comments should not have a deleterious affect on his confidence as you have previously claimed.
@Bwag That's good. You have to keep the defender honest. Forte from OSU as a very good 3 pt shooter also went to the basket more this year. It appears that Forte is also in a bit of a slump now.
@HawksWin KUinLA is no teenager. He posted his identical extreme dislike for Bill Self for years on the "other" site.
@drgnslayr I'm not terribly interested in an argument but what you're saying is that if your ancestors didn't live in Lawrence at the time of Quantrill's raid then you can't really understand how Kansas feels about Missouri.
One question. Did someone have to start or play a lot or simply be a walk on as a Jayhawk to understand what it's like to be a real Jayhawk? Does the next coach have to have eaten a Joe's doughnut?
If a future coach has to grow up a KU fan or be a KU player then things look bleak down the road since the demographics aren't really that good.