Re-post--The Big 12 Conference trophy is made of iron pyrite.
KUinLA
216 posts
I hope Turgeon is the next Kansas head coach.
@DoubleDD Ok fine--I'll go along with that.
@DoubleDD Well he went further with Bill's boys than Bill did with Roy's boys.
@DoubleDD Hey, he took a team to the Championship game. They finished 37-2 that year.
@jaybate-1.0
"whatever Coach Self's purposes were."
What do you mean by that? What other purpose could he have than to try to win the game? Do you think he's working some ulterior motive here?
@DoubleDD Agreed--Bill doesn't run any plays to free up a 3, and that just makes it easier to D up the 3. Scouting will also tell you that we don't have any players who will attempt a 3 if they're not completely wide open (which is probably also at Bill's edict) so you just have to defend them moderately well outside the arc. Kinda makes defense easy.
Well, outcoached again. Simple scouting tells you that Kansas looks their best when they're getting open looks for 3's. When they don't get 3's and concentrate their game down low, they don't look as good. They still win most of the time, but they struggle more.
Simple logic tells you that your best chance of beating Kansas is to not give up open 3's and live with whatever damage they do down low. Simple math tells you that also. We have one guy who can hurt you down low. We have 3 or 4 who can hurt you from beyond the arc. Bruce Webber guarded the 3 tightly and we didn't get many open looks. He chose to live with Perry Ellis's big night and came away with a win. Just like West Virginia did and just like TCU almost did.
They also went zone when we tried our desperation late game weave. The weave only works if they're playing a tight man D and you have a quickness advantage. So the Wildcats said, 'Go ahead, weave all you want 25 feet out. We'll wait here for you at the 3pt line.' Looks like Bruce knows Bill's offensive sets pretty well. And don't forget, Bruce did take the team he inherited from Bill to the Championship game. I think the guy can coach a little. Recruiting might be a different story, but he can coach.
And on another note, why is Selden still playing so many minutes? Between his playground junk drives and his lackadaisical ball-handling...
How hard is it to catch a pass? Unless you make it hard by trying to do it with one hand? I'd seriously like to see his minutes cut in half and Brannen and Devonte pick up those minutes.
@HighEliteMajor Thanks--you kinda remind me of The Clash--"The only (poster whose opinion) matters"
Thanks again--of course, no offense to the other posters here.
@wrwlumpy That blogger must be a regular reader of KUSports & KUBuckets--we've been having that discussion for at least a couple of years
I heard the Big 12 Conference trophy was made of iron pyrite.
@jaybate-1.0 Yeah, I'll give Bill credit for his record. And yeah, I'm spoiled by that gaudy regular season record. No one else can boast a better regular season record or record of tournament appearances. But it's just that that leads me to expect more. We are Kansas, after all.
And I'll give him credit for playing the toughest schedule he can devise.
And yet, I wonder if that schedule is a product of him finally realizing that our conference schedule is not doing enough to prepare us for the Tournament. Although I believe our conference is on the upswing (I wouldn't be surprised to see Iowa St, Oklahoma and Baylor all make it to the Sweet Sixteen, and maybe even us), I still don't see the Big 12 as a 'Power Conference,' having placed no team beside Kansas in the Final Four in the last 10 years. Check the stats on the other 'power conferences' in that regard.
And while I credit Bill for his regular season record, I also call him to account on his tournament upsets, especially against nobodies. That's what my negativity is all about. Just like Bill does with his players, I see in terms of 'what could we be doing better?" Sorry if that ruffles the feathers of all the posters here who seem completely satisfied with winning our 'Cake-walk Conference' year after year and then going home early in the real tournament almost every year.
ps--I thought your reply to @Kip_McSmithers was kinda whiny--especially from such an articulate poster who always seems to relish defending his ideas. Hope you're feeling okay.
@ralster Yes, I am embarrassed to reveal my lack of analytical understanding about the loss to Kentucky. I thought it was because Bill insisted on pounding the ball inside to our undersized players, who repeatedly got their shots blocked. Can't believe I so misunderstood what really happened in that game.
And yeah, I'll stand by my post that Frank Mason was the one bright spot in that game for Kansas. Even though, at Freshman + 2 games, he hadn't figured out how to dish off his drives, he still exhibited the ability to get into the paint and to the rim. I'll take that any day.
As far as your last paragraph, well I can't even figure out what point you're trying to make. As far as I can tell, you're backing up my propositions.
@nuleafjhawk Sorry, I didn't use 'us' because I don't feel like part of the team--Bill never listens to me, lol.
@HighEliteMajor I knew @jaybate-1.0 would love this post, lol--you used metaphors and referenced 60's-70's music.
@KUSTEVE I guess I'm too far removed from the 'border wars' to carry much animosity towards Missouri. Fact is, I never did. I actually rooted for them in the tournament (as long as we didn't meet up) and in non-conference games. I felt like it made the Big 12 a better conference.. And I rooted for most Big 12 (or 8, or whatever) teams against outsiders. I bet Bill would say the same thing.
Are you familiar with the term 'schadenfreude'? Loosely defined as 'taking pleasure in the failure of others.' I'm no philosopher, but it seems to me like worse karma than gloating over your own success. But, whatever floats your boat, Steve. Enjoy that.
I'd rather concentrate my thoughts on what Kansas can do to improve, as a team and as a coach, to advance in the Tournament.
Who cares? They're a blip on the screen. A diminishing spot in the rear view mirror.
Great game by Perry, and no offense to him, but if Bill thinks a great game from the low post against the worst team in the league is going to translate into justification of his offensive philosophy against NCAA tournament teams--well, talk about Fool's Gold...
How'd that work out for you against Kentucky? Does anyone here think a 9 point win at home (at Allen Field House!!!???) against TCU??? is something to hang your hat on?
I don't have a problem with Perry missing the last shot. It was bang-bang and close to out of control.
But in the first half he was about 1-4 with a shot blocked. And this with Bill running the offense to 'go to' him, with the first two possessions all about 'feed the post.' And he misses the short shots. He's either got to hit those, or Bill has to stop trying to pound it in to him there.
The whole concept of 'feed the post' is that those are supposed to be the high percentage shots.
Interesting conversation on Dan Patrick's radio show the other day about Penny Hardaway and Derrick Rose that might be relevant. Discussing Derrick Rose post-recovery--how he's become a 'jump shooter' and doesn't go hard to the bucket nearly as much. Penny said he totally relates, because after his injury, he never trusted his leg to go hard into traffic and just instinctually pulled up all the time. Wasn't long after that, he was out of the league.
Before reading this thread, I was just about to post and come down hard on Wayne after re-watching the WV game, that he doesn't belong on the court--nothing but turnovers and bad passes that caused his teammates to turn over. And in the second half, after a sweet feed from Jamari, he misses a layup. Granted, he was fouled, but with an 'NBA ready body'-- you gotta finish that. Then he proceeded to miss to free throws.
You're might be right about him dealing with emotional scars--something just doesn't seem right with him.
@drgnslayr Wow, you really are in the tank, aren't you, lol.
Wow, so many small things that added up to a loss. Before seeing WV play this year and only having heard and read about them, I would've expected a loss in their place. But after watching them for half a game it seemed there was no way we should lose to this team. Especially since their crowd was pretty much taken out of the game by the weather. And they only had one player who can hurt you offensively. We have so many more talented players to draw on.
And their press, which was effective early, pretty much became a non-factor as we figured it out and seemed to handle it pretty easily. I will give Bill credit for that. By the second half it looked like we were methodically breaking them down and victory was inevitable. So methodical that Brent's play-by-play started to sound like a hip hop song. So methodical that West Virginia pretty much gave up on it's press. Yes, I will give Bill credit for that.
But the press did work well enough early to give the Mountaineers the cushion they needed to stay in a game they shouldn't have been in. And by the way, why is Wayne Selden still in the game after that ridiculous one-handed catch attempt against that press. Should've been on the bench for the rest of the half. Can you imagine if EJ would've pulled that when he was a sophomore?
And even though it seemed like West Virginia was trying to hold back the inevitable tide coming in and was going to get blown out at any minute, they hung in. Even though we were getting the looks we wanted inside, we weren't getting them outside. And we weren't converting them inside at a high enough rate. Perry needs to shoot a better percentage inside. Just a little bit better, but better.
It was like Huggins scouted us and saw that we looked our best when we get open looks from beyond the arc and we don't shoot a good percentage inside. So he determined to take the 3pointer away from us and live with our inside game. I guess that's coaching, huh? It's almost like Huggs understands our team better than our own coach does. I think it just boiled down to coaching. At the risk of raising the ire of the Self Lovers out there, I'll say it once more. Out-coached again.
And I'm sure there's less pressure because the stakes aren't as high as coach of West Virginia, but watching Bill yell at his team during a timeout while Huggs calmly diagrams a play was just, well...
Which reminded me of something Bill said during his feature last weekend--that he's not motivated by winning, he's motivated by not losing. That kinda backs up my observation that he coaches and emphasizes fear of failure rather than embracing the opportunity for success. He's too risk-averse. I don't know where anybody ever got the idea he's a 'riverboat gambler.' I don't see that at all. But I guess we all see different things.
Yeah I never saw JoJo either--same as you--just what history tells me. Might get some old timers here argue for Clyde, too.
@Blown Not bad choices--I'm thinking I'd want Sherron or JoJo or maybe even Darnell in there, and maybe Jacque or Aaron as an assist guy
link text ↗(Recent article on ESPN)Kansas wasn't included because it was a 'rivalry thing' but still fun to think about.
Ok, so obvious front line of Wilt, Danny and Paul, but who do want in your backcourt? Lot of choices, between scorers and guys who can get the ball to scorers.
And even though coaching wasn't included, who's got any kind of legacy of coaches to choose from besides Kansas? I'll go with Larry.
@ralster The error in your analogy here is that you don't take into account the relative skill levels of the players on each team. At least 5 of Kansas' top rotation players are going to be drafted into the NBA, whenever they decide to declare. They may not make the roster, but Cliff, Perry, Wayne, Kelly and Brannen are all going to be drafted. They are of that skill level. How many of TT's players are going to be drafted? Probably none.
This is a game you are expected to win easily. If you beat a vastly more talented team, it's a great coaching victory. And if you don't dispatch a vastly less talented team, where does the blame lie? Well, on this chat board, if your name is Calipari, it's clear evidence that you're a terrible coach. If you're Bill Self, the blame formerly rested squarely on the players shoulders. Not so much anymore.
Repeated tournament upsets have people questioning the coach's methods. Maybe Bill's just a victim of his own success, but that's the source of the anxiety and unease (even in a win) on this board. Either we're under-peforming in the tournament (year after year) or we're over-rated.
If you go into the tournament as an overall #1 or 2 seed, anything less than a Final Four is a disappointment. If you go in as a 2 seed or higher, anything less than an Elite Eight is a disappointment, and an exit in the first weekend is a disaster. How many times have we seen our draft laden teams get upset by nobodies? Nobodies who didn't win another game in the tournament. It's that history that has posters angst-ing over this team's prospects. We seen it all before.
@HighEliteMajor Yeah, I hope Bill doesn't spend too much more time implying that his 3pt shooters have just been 'lucky' so far. He may need them to have the confidence to take a big shot at the end of a game in the tournament. Like EJ.
@REHawk I don't know where you get the evidence for this theory. You sound like this is some kind of ruse Bill is pulling to trick teams into not guarding the three in the tournament. Other coaches aren't that dumb. That's what scouting if for. They determine what you do well, and no matter what you say, and they work to stop you from what you do well.
A perfect example is the play for Brannen in the OK and OSU games. Set him on the low block and run him thru traffic across the lane. In the OK game, his guy got caught up in traffic and he was open for a 3. At the end of the OSU game they tried the same play. OSU obviously scouted and knew what was coming when Brannen set up on the low block. Forte stuck with him thru the lane and he never got open for a 3. Game over.
Opposing coaches aren't dumb and aren't going to be duped. And I don't think Bill is dumb enough to think they will be. He's never proved to be 'tricky' or 'sneaky' in his game plan--it's always been the same. Even in the Stanford game. He'd rather stick with his game plan with his second stringer than change his philosophy and run his offense thru his wing. Even with ANDREW WIGGINS as that wing. The only way Bill resembles a big cat is that he can't change his spots.
I was a bit taken aback by the Texas Twerking--is that what cheerleaders are doing these days?
Okay, so Miles Simon's Dean Smith story kinda gave me chills. Such a gentleman and class act! The fact that he went out of his way to encourage a kid and build up his self esteem--even when it would not do him (Smith) any good, and might have actually hurt him down the line professionally-- that's kinda what it's all about.
I'm proud to be able to claim Dean Smith, even though it's just because we were from the same state and went to the same college.
And Simon's connection of Naismith through Jordan was pretty moving also. And to think that you could leave out Larry Brown and Roy Williams (and 3 more National Championships and 7 more Final Fours) and still have a great story, just shows how richly textured and deeply layered the story of Kansas Basketball is.
Rest in Peace, Dean Smith.
@KUSTEVE Well I'll agree with what you say, but for me, it's not about winning the conference. That means nothing to me if you get bounced in the tournament by a lesser team. Roy had his tourney upsets, but he still made it to the Final Four 4 times. And his upsets were not nearly as painful (to me anyway) as Bill's have been. I'm glad to see Bill is coming around, (slowly but surely) but you gotta recognize, the game has changed. You can make all the videos you want explaining the hi-lo c0ncept, but if you keep getting bounced from the tourney by an 8, 9 or 10 seed (or worse) what's the point? The game has moved on.
Well we certainly don't deserve to spared a matchup with Kentucky prior to the Final Four. Having been trounced by them, why would the committee grant us that grace if they wouldn't do so for a team like Wichita St. last year. You have to earn your way to the Final Four. An what it boils down to is, anyone NOT in Kentucky's bracket has been done a favor by the committee. By virtue of our blowout loss, we would be the least deserving 2, 3 or 4 seed of that favor.
And then there's the ratings considerations, which do play a part in seeding. A potential Kansas/Kentucky matchup the week before the Final Four would be attractive to the network.
I've been told that I should try to be more positive in my posts
OK--Everything is AWESOME!!! ↗!everything-is-awesome-6.png ↗
And don't forget-- ALWAYS root for the local sports team!
@icthawkfan316 Yes, you dismiss me--but you still can't resist replying to my posts. You really should get over me. Just as you're tired of me, I'm tired of you lambasting me every time I post something negative about your beloved coach. Especially when we often make the same points in our posts--that we don't handle the press well, that we don't run a 3pt offense, that the offense in general needs some tweaking. I wish you'd just get over your seemingly personal animosity towards me. Is it my hair in my avatar? Are you bald?
And yes, I do take a little gratification from seeing how many posters openly question Bill's coaching on this site. Especially when that invariably got me pilloried on the previous site. But now, it's pretty much acceptable and a normal topic of discussion here. I guess I was just ahead of the curve on that.
And yeah, I do pipe up after a loss. I guess that's where my philosophy differs from Bill's and the originator of this thread's. I don't wanna throw the tape in the trash. I believe you can actually learn something from a loss. Remember that thread from the previous site?
@nuleafjhawk Ah, taking one from William F. Buckley's playbook I see...
@icthawkfan316 said:
the overall offense doesn't seem to include a whole lot of actions to free up shooters.
Hmm, where have I heard that before? No wait, I shouldn't post unless I have something good to say
I agree that Frank's probably physically overworked, but I don't think anyone's taking into account the mental stress factor. Especially when having to deal with a press. That's one of the reasons you do press--to create mental stress which will show up as 'unforced' errors later in the game. That's the reason you go after a loose ball that you don't have any chance to get--to create mental stress on your opponent.
I think the combination of physical fatigue from playing extended minutes and mental fatigue of playing point guard at Kansas (you don't think it's mentally stressful to have to perform on TV? Trust me, I live in the porn capital of the world) is a recurring theme, from Sherron's March 2010 sinking shooting percentage, to Tyshawn's almost whole career, to EJ's 2013 tournament to Naadir last year. Hopefully this game was just a blip for Frank, but if history is any indication...well I'd like to see him get a little help.
And no disrespect to anyone intended, but playing point guard for Kansas a whole different ball game than playground or tournament team ball. Those are things you do to relieve mental stress..
@icthawkfan316 Okay, I can't even figure out what you're talking about at this point, lol.
I know you are, but what am I?
Go to bed and get some sleep, buddy--it's late.
@icthawkfan316 So do you disagree with what I posted or do you just not like the fact that I posted. I noticed that REHawk posted the exact same thing about 'outcoached' at the exact same time that I did. Are you gonna take him to task also?
And what's unconstructive about saying Bill needs to figure out how to beat a press and how to get his 3pt shooters open? Of course, I don't think there's any 'debate' about that, so I guess I'm not contributing to that 'debate.'
Well, out-coached again. The book seems to be 'press Kansas.' If we do get into the front court, we never manage to get into any kind of offensive flow. And this from a coach who says we don't press because a good team will beat the press for easy baskets. (And advocates for a 30 second shot clock) Bill should probably just plead the Fifth if he's ever asked about pressing again.
And I don't think I saw a single play run for a 3pt shooter until the last minute, if you wanna call that a play. Granted, setting Brannen on the low block and running him across the lane between a couple other guys worked in the Oklahoma game, when his defender got caught up in the traffic in the lane, but if your team mates aren't going to make the slightest move to set a screen, but just hope the defender gets bogged down in traffic, well, you don't have to be Malcolm Butler to jump the play and keep your guy from getting open.
You can't just have your shooters hang around outside the 3pt line and hope the defense is gonna lag off them.
@jaybate-1.0 Ahh, Brevity -- the very soul of wit!
@jaybate-1.0 ??? What game were you watching? Or maybe I just don't get what point you're trying to make...?
Didn't even watch the game tonite but felt compelled to reply because it's so easy--same ol' same.
First, Selden-- At this point, he's just phoning it in. He's to the point where he realizes Bill's game will do nothing to showcase his talents so he's just gonna bide his time (and not risk injury) and try his luck in the combines next spring. He's already checked out.
Next, Lucas and Traylor--didn't you just post last week about the end of "inside out?" If only. Unfortunately, the leopard can't change his spots and Bill still thinks that's where his bread is buttered.
And thirdly, Brannen Greene. Well, all I can say is, watching Phil Forte work so hard to get his shots last week just leaves me disillusioned and disappointed in Brannen Greene. Of course, it would help for the coach to recognize where his scoring potential is and gear his offense to get those scorers open.
You can trust in Self all you want, but given what we've seen so far (this year and in previous years) do you really think Bill's gonna have this team prepared for an NCAA tournament run? I don't.
Well that just goes to show what a good coach who knows how to prepare his team for the tournament can do. As opposed to--our guy.
That was actually Bill's offense that took Wigs out of the game. Stanford was just reacting to what Bill's team was doing.
We'll see...
@approxinfinity Good luck with that-- teams that lose games by 25 & 30 points don't do ANYTHING in the tournament. Get ready for a first weekend exit come March.
@approxinfinity
Frank was the best player in a Kansas uniform, just like in the Kentucky game.
'Without Embid, how good would Wigs have really looked at Kansas?'
You're kidding, right?