🏀 KuBuckets Archive

Those who want Self fired, seriously think about who the next coach would be. Beard is going to UT or not leaving TTU. Bennett is likely staying on the East Coast.

Rick Pitino was just seriously considered for the UCLA job. Hoiberg seems to want to stay in the NBA.

If USA Basketball didn't can him and the NABC didn't can him I think that's a pretty good sign that his internal reputation (those that know what goes on behind the scenes in CBB) think he's a good coach. One slip up in 15 years is hardly something I'd be calling for a firing. You can question him for lying, but the truth is that there is likely nothing definitive that proves he told Adidas reps to pay anyone. But everyone knew what was happening. I just watched Law Abiding Citizen the other day, and this quote is applicable, "It's not what you know, it's what you can prove in court!"

If you think firing Bill and hiring anyone else will change something, please explain that to me. Because I can't seem to see how it would change a single thing, other than we'd be letting go of a coach who wins at a pretty historical rate.

@HighEliteMajor We know we paid players through a 3rd party. We know Bill Self lied about it. Either follow through and demand he be fired or get over it and realize that he is our coach and not going anywhere.

HighEliteMajor said:

Let's look at KU now .. why are we just now prepared to formally acknowledge this? How about doing that at the same press conference where Self proclaimed himself free of any knowledge of third party inducements provided to our players? Conflicting narratives? I don't know.

Let's fire him.

@KirkIsMyHinrich I would bet that is why we went through such lengths. But at this point, knowing he'd be retroactively ineligible for those games my guess is that is what happens and we are at least trying to get him eligible now.

But that's just my guess.

BShark said:

Kcmatt7 said:

@BeddieKU23 I firmly believe that adding another athlete turns this team back into a true title contender. Adding De Sousa would mean we will be able to move to a very solid 7 man rotation and have 5 athletes on the floor the entire game.

Just to refresh everyone's memories, in games where he played 10 minutes or more, he averaged 8 points and 7 rebounds. He shot .681 and 2.8 offensive rebounds a game. Many of his advanced stats would be near the top of this team. His rebound percentage was 24% (Dedric who is a good rebounder is at 18%). De Sousa, if he improved any since last season, would likely be a major upgrade to Mitch, KJ and Big Dave.

Dotson, Vick, Grimes, Garrett, Agbaji, Dedric, Silvio. KJ as the 8th man.

!alt text ↗

KirkIsMyHinrich said:

I'm wondering why Kansas is submitting a request for reinstatement now. Why not a few months ago?

Also, any guesses what Kansas' punishment will be?

vacated FF and B12. They will drag us through the mud I'd bet.

@BeddieKU23 I firmly believe that adding another athlete turns this team back into a true title contender. Adding De Sousa would mean we will be able to move to a very solid 7 man rotation and have 5 athletes on the floor the entire game.

Just to refresh everyone's memories, in games where he played 10 minutes or more, he averaged 8 points and 7 rebounds. He shot .681 and 2.8 offensive rebounds a game. Many of his advanced stats would be near the top of this team. His rebound percentage was 24% (Dedric who is a good rebounder is at 18%). De Sousa, if he improved any since last season, would likely be a major upgrade to Mitch, KJ and Big Dave.

I mean, we all know it was a violation and that penalties were likely coming. Might as well just admit to them, take whatever medicine is coming, and get our player back.

I think this also allows Silvio to get a Lawyer involved and usually when that happens, the NCAA tends to move a bit quicker.

@BeddieKU23 Basically nothing more than that. Other than the penalty for $2500 payment is typically only 30% of a season. De Sousa has now missed 16 games.

It isn't hard to diagnose why the FBI thing happen to us. Expectations at KU are to have a top 10 recruiting class year in and year out and compete for a NC. Every. Single. Season. And there would not be a lot of leeway if a coach were not doing this. We say we'd be happy to have Bielein, but he would have been fired here if he duplicated what he's done at Michigan.

Let's just break down recruiting a little bit:

We are KU. We are in need of a PG, two wings and a big man. We just lost two wings and a PG on a FF team. So we are pretty thin at those two positions. Must haves. We need a project Big at least. Preferably, the PG should be capable of giving us 12 mpg and a starter wing and a project wing.

Let's say there are roughly 100 kids that we think would be P5 D1 quality. Of all positions. Take out the kids Nike paid off. So we are down to 40 players. Take out guys from California and the guys who are likely to stay home. So we have 25 players to recruit. Ok now take out kids that want to start from day 1. So now we are down to 15 players. The distribution of them: 2 PGs. 7 Wings. 3 PFs. 3 Cs.

So we NEED one of those PGs. And we are competing with Louisville, NC State, Indiana, Washington and A&M for him.

This is when the offers come in and things get sloppy. We essentially HAVE to land one of these guys or lose your job in a few years.

Or, pay him, maybe get caught. If you get caught, it likely doesn't lose you your job. But, it may also get you a NC or a win or build on your legacy. But it very likely helps you keep your job instead of losing it.

The risk-reward is clear. It is why Pitino was even considered for the UCLA job. Nobody cares about cheating the NCAA. It is why Bill will continue to have Adidas pay recruits and he'll accept them. It's why K didn't sit Zion. It's how K won his last NC and probably wins his next.

Cheating is apart of the game now. The only way to change it is to change the structure of the NCAA. Because enforcement won't ever change.

Tate Martell in the Transfer Portal now as well. Now that one is intriguing... He'd have 3 years of eligibility remaining.

@Hula-Hawk https://kuathletics.com/sports/2018/5/7/football-construction-camera.aspx ↗

They're upgrading the facilities as we speak. The Memorial renovations should take place next.

@nuleafjhawk lol well I guess my point is that I think he'd struggle to throw 15 TDs for a team so void of talent...

@nuleafjhawk It's more the whole being surrounded by NFL caliber players at every single position and throwing only 23 TDs, and 19TDs. When Tua went out and threw 43 his first year as a starter with basically the same weapons....

@BigBad I know he does. It's just one of those things though, where it doesn't work with everyone. Reminds me a lot of the Oubre year.

Just like that season, a FF run basically hinges on Grimes becoming something special. Instead of letting him play through mistakes, he pulls him out and yells at him every 5 minutes and the kid is so mentally screwed up at this point that it's unlikely he can become the player he should have been by the end of this season.

And this is why I would never send my kid to play for Bill Self if he was being looked at as a OAD. K and Cal have proven they are much better OAD coaches than Self because Bill is competitive to a fault. He legitimately takes each game like it could be the last. And it routinely has hurt overall team development. We saw it by Big Dave not getting minutes yesterday and Grimes being limited to 16 minutes.

It is a problem. And if Grimes is a big dud in a Sweet 16 game or EE game and we lose, I'll be pissed.

Hurts just doesn't impress me.

HighEliteMajor said:

With this poor shooting team, we sure could use a Withey or a TRob.

One nice benefit of Agbaji's addition -- Charlie Moore 4 minutes, he of the 7.3 PER. That appears to be the squeeze. That makes us better than without Agbagi.

I get the match up thing, but David McCormack, one minute? We are really going to play Mitch Lightfoot over a McDonald's all-American? Seriously, who will be better in March with quality minutes. The fact is if we play McCormack, he will improve AND it's unlikely that Mitch will get worse.

Worth watching, because it might be critical to our tourney survival. It's guarding against Dedric in foul trouble. Mitch and guards vs. McCormack and guards? Certain teams will destroy the former.

My one defense of playing Mitch is that he really is a good defender in spurts. While playing 4 guards, you don't really need him to score.

But I agree, one offers much more upside.

Half of his problem seems to be confidence. Bill definitely gives him a much harder time than anyone else.

@wissox Fair Questions.

1. My opinion, I think Grimes has been fine. I think most people see him struggling, but that is simply based on high expectations. I see a guard averaging 9 points a game for a top 10 team in the Nation. He could be better, sure. But he has definitely not been a bad player. Dotson has found immediate success according to most, but I think his expectations were way down. When in reality, he has almost an identical Per 40 stat line despite having the ball in his hands more than Grimes does. But we don't ask why Dotson isn't scoring or assisting more than he has been. So I think the perspective is that Grimes is struggling based on OAD expectations. If he were a freshman you'd never heard of playing like he's playing, he'd be getting the same attention Ochai has been for his performance last night.

Moore, in my opinion, was an emergency take. He was no hidden gem. He was taken at the end of the season where whiffed recruiting and when the risk to take him was pretty minimal. Stories with Frank, DG and Ochai are similar. One of the coaches watched them, thought the player was a stud, and then was immediately offered and basically immediately signed.

1. I don't think Ochai has "made it." But I think he looked like he belonged on the court. Which you typically can't say about freshman big men who are not special players. Especially not 100+ ranked big men. No I don't think every 100+ ranked guard we sign will be an immediate impact player. But they definitely are more likely to be able to be a serviceable player from day 1 than a 100+ ranked Big man. Compare the readiness of Ochai with what you think a freshman Landen Lucas would have looked like in the game last night, and I think you'll see what I'm trying to get at. Your depth automatically is better carrying more guards in a 4 out system than trying to run a 2 big man system where at least two of the players on the bench are likely huge net negatives if you put them in the game. At least, theoretically speaking.

I think it is time for Bill to make the switch to a 4 guard SYSTEM. Forever. From here on out. No more of this being the accident. No more plan B. What we saw from Ochai last night is not a fluke. We have now had a player ranked in the 100s be an immediate impact player since 2013. First it was Frank. Then Devonte. Now Ochai.

In that same span, we have had 3 five star post players struggle to find that same immediate success under Bill Self. Bragg, Diallo and Cliff.

It is now painfully obvious that guards are able to come in start making plays at a high level from day 1. It isn't hard to be able to find 5 guards who can play, especially if you carry 9 or 10 of them instead of just 6 or 7. So, I believe it is time for Bill to quit fighting change. Lean into the 4 guard system. Other teams have shown how effective it can be. ISU, VT, and Nova all competed with the big boys by running a 4 out system without elite talent.

We are witnessing at Duke, right now, what it looks like when a Blue Blood commits to the 4 guard system with top tier athletes. Nobody can keep up with them. They are running damn near everyone out of the gym. They aren't even efficient scorers outside of Zion, but still, nobody is able to keep up with them for 40 minutes. And Duke isn't even deep! They are as thin of a team as anyone in the country. But playing 4 out with 4 great athletes has allowed them to do things nobody else can do.

Last night, we saw what we were capable of. No it wasn't pretty. We missed a ton of shots. But what we did to TCU is what Duke has been doing to everyone this season. We out-athleted them. We lined up 5 athletes and challenged them for 40 minutes. Our defense was scrappy and active. Our offense was in attack mode, even if the ball wasn't always going in the basket. The entire team looked like it clicked 10 times better than it had all year when the strategy was throwing lob after lob. Guys played with confidence, energy and passion on both ends.

So, what am I getting at with all of this? I believe that Bill Self's coaching philosophy of being a "break them down and build them up" coach combo's best with a four guard system. For several reasons.

First, I believe that most guards come in physically capable of playing college basketball day one. Therefore, it is only a mental issue with most of them. Something that can be improved as the season goes on.

Second, a four guard offense promotes freedom, creativity, and aggression. It also creates passion. When players are comfortable and confident on offense, it often times ratchets up their defense as well. Instead of Bill demanding guys play better defense, some passion for it may naturally occur if things are going well on the offensive side of the ball.

Finally, this is simply the direction that basketball is moving. And it has proven to be effective. As a Blue Blood with a distinct recruiting advantage, we should be able to build a roster with 5 athletes and two big men year in and year out without the growing pains we see when Bill lands a Top 5 Blue Collar big man. I believe we would be able to out-athlete damn near any team in CBB besides maybe the other Blue Bloods. I think if our recruiting pitch switched to a system that prepares players for the NBA better, it would also help in recruiting.

It's time to make the switch.

Granted Diversion. Interested to see how this plays out.

If we think KU is a top 10 team with Ochai than you have to play him. The Tournament is crazy. KU could be gifted a chance at a FF like UK and KSU were last year. Whatever gives you the best chance to win right now is the right choice. Predicting 4 years out is almost impossible. Especially with the next NBA CBA and potentail OAD rule changes.

It works two fold. If this team made a run to an EE and lost by 2 but kept Ochai's redshirt, we might have been asking ourselves, "what if." But the same will be true if we don't make a FF this season and in 4 years we were just one piece away from making one then.

I don't think either decision is bad. But I definitely hate throwing the towel in for a season where you still have a legitimate chance at a FF. Especially if you can land in the Midwest Region and play "home" games all the way through to the FF.

BeddieKU23 said:

@Kcmatt7

I agree about pace especially. I think I saw, KU on Offense is Top 30 in pace but defensively one of the worst- meaning we let teams run through their sets. So it may pay off to slow the ball down on O a bit and force Dedric and Vick especially to pass up some of the quick shots they tend to take as soon as they get the ball. Also, adjust something defensively that may lead to shorter defensive possessions either more token pressure full/ 3/4 court or more ball traps on the perimeter on ball screens. Without Doke and his presence, teams are going to look at our front line and say attack, attack attack.

I'd love to see us press. I could only imagine how effective it would be with our length.

I also want to bring up that Ochai isn't your typical "unranked" freshman project. The kid is built like a grown ass man. He was before he got here, and I'm sure Hudy has only been able to help. He isn't going to be physically overmatched. It is all a mental thing with him. Now that he has been in the program for 7 months, I think he should have a pretty good idea of what's going on. The speed of the game should have slowed down for him some by now. He may not be a savior, but he certainly shouldn't be a nightmare on the court either.

justanotherfan said:

I've slept on it, and I still don't know how this really helps KU in the immediate sense.

As others have noted, Agbaji was not a top 30 recruit. He was a good player that improved drastically over the last 16 months. But with the injury, it's hard to say where he is at developmentwise. I suppose he could have improved even more from when we last got an extended look at him, but even then, it's doubtful that he turned into a top 50 talent overnight, particularly given he missed time with injury that likely slowed his development a bit.

Travis Releford seems to be a good comp for Agbaji. Obviously, we all remember veteran Releford being a big contributor as a junior and senior. However, Releford barely played as a true freshman, redshirted his second year, then barely played as a redshirt sophomore (just 10 mpg). I think we could expect that type of production from Agbaji, so maybe 4 points, 2 rebounds, 1 assist, 1 steal in 10-12 minutes.

Is that going to change the outcome of games?

Absolutely it could change the outcome of games. If he can hit 3s at a decent clip (33%), he then makes an impact just by being on the court. 10 minutes of not being able to double off onto Lawson in the post. 10 minutes of opening driving lanes for Dotson. Add in that Bill has said he's the most athletic player on the team. That alone will give him the ability to make 10 impactful minutes in certain games.

If he wins you one game this year because he made an amazing play or two to change the outcome, it could be the difference between playing in the Kansas City Region or getting shipped out West instead. To me, that makes it 100% worth burning his redshirt.

4 guards is the right decision. Dotson, Grimes and Dedric should all play better in space. This also allows you to really have 5 shooters on the floor at times, if Garrett is out of the game. Maybe they aren't knockdown guys, but they all shoot it well enough to give whoever is driving space.

I'd also like to see us slow the pace quite a bit. Turn it into a half court challenge. I'll take Lawson and Dotson's ability to score in half court over damn near anyone else. I think Grimes will get better too as we creep through conference play.

I definitely don't think the season is doomed. This is really where Bill has shined in the past. Seriously, how was last year's team in the FF? We pulled a kid out of HS and made a FF run through Seton Hall, Clemson and Duke. How was 2012 in the Championship? 3 of those games were decided by 3 points or less on that run AND WE PLAYED JUSTIN WESLEY 9 MINUTES PER GAME. One of those "In Bill Self I Trust" moments coming. You can just feel it.

BShark said:

Baylor is bad, they are 9-5.

Still not sure how this KU team beat MSU and Tenn.

Doke was just a horrible matchup for both teams. Especially MSU and Ward.

Necessity is the mother of invention.

I'll be interested to see what Bill does knowing that we basically are down to two bigs and only have 5 guards.

When we were thin in 2012, Bill went pick and roll with T-Rob and Tyshawn. He also force fed T-Rob the ball at the top of the key and let him shoot and drive.

When we were hot garbage and just not a good team in 2015, Self invented Bad Ball.

When we had only guards in 17 and 18, Bill adapted to 4 out run and gun.

This group is a challenge though. None of those options really seem to fit well. Lawson isn't good enough to carry a team like T-Rob. Dotson could play bad ball, but we don't defend well enough to do it. We don't shoot well enough to play a 4 out worth a damn.

I'm really hoping we see something from Bill we've never seen before... Otherwise it'll be a long 3 months.

Nike doing the right thing. I’d bet these guys got a nice check for assurance they wouldn’t bash Nike in court.

Just go 4 guards and a tight rotation at this point. Grimes, Garrett, Dotson and Vick all for 40 minutes a game. Dedric for 30. Big Dave for 10. Moore if someone has foul trouble.

@BeddieKU23 I like how they both project long term.

I am mostly worried that both of them may need to be immediate contributors, though. If Dotson and Grimes end up leaving (still a possibility if they carry this team to a B12 Championship) than I think both of those guys will be immediately thrown into the fire next season. Which is terrifying. Next season's group is either going to look awesome with Sophomore Dotson and Grimes or crazy young and rough around the edges.

Such a steal.

Can shoot. Those handles for his size.... Great passer. And he has some sneaky athleticism.

@justanotherfan I think that would provide better basketball at the end of games, but nothing is better than a buzzer beater as far as a spectacle goes. I like keeping the clock. Just make it so fouling isn't advantageous. 1 free throw and the ball.

Doke also changes the pace of the game because he is so efficient. We get a bucket and can set our defense instead of the up and down game we got caught in last night. He’s also our best rim protector. He may very well be 20 points over our current replacement players. We will see when ISU comes back to play in Lawrence.

approxinfinity said:

We can't afford Vick to turn into a vegetable. That's the thing I struggle to believe we will overcome. When your lone deadeye is prone to bad decisions it's a problem. Makes me think whenever he touches the ball he should be bombing and not looking to create. ?

He has 0 basketball IQ and all the talent in the world.

approxinfinity said:

@Kcmatt7 we don't want any Mitch in that rotation?

Unplayable with a team that can’t shoot because he doesn’t look to score.

It’s funny. I thought we would be absolutely stacked.

We are not. We are thin. We do not shoot well.

Only positive today was Grimes. Except that for some reason he did something to piss Bill off and Self continues to put Moore in for him. Which is dumbfounding at this point.

approxinfinity said:

Never have I welcomed the Bill Self rotation trimming more than right now. KJ and Moore shouldn't see court before the outcome of a game is certain.

New rotation:

• Dotson - 40 minutes
• Grimes - 40 minutes
• Vick - 40 minutes if he’s hot, sub him out if he plays like an idiot. Sub Garrett
• Dedric - 40 minutes
• Doke - 30 minutes and sub Big Dave.

That’s it. 7 man.

Bill Self does not know how to coach perimeter D. He’s proven that.

We played out of control from the tip-off. I’m very confused by the pace in which we tried to play this game.

@KirkIsMyHinrich he’s been out of control almost all game. His job is to take care of the ball and get us into the offense.

Safe to say that hasn’t happened today.

He’s far from the problem, but he was not the player he’s been all season.

Ill be recording hawk talk on Monday for sure

Charlie Moore is not a D1 basketball player

This team is going to struggle on the road all season. Might be lucky to get the 1 seed now. Have to hope for the 2 seed or 3 seed through KC still.

kjayhawks said:

Hopefully after we lose the big 12 this season Self can end his transfer project, it’s crap.

Oh Dedric has been carrying this team. Not all bad.

Vick worse as a senior than unranked out of nowhere freshman. FBI investigation and us whiffing on Langford was brutal. Silvio not playing because FBI investigation is brutal.

Very upset right now.

Garrett absolutely is unplayable IMO. Bill Self pet project. A player so bad offensively on the court is a joke.

Lol 20 turnovers. Several just simply not having strong hands

BShark said:

KirkIsMyHinrich said:

Well. This is about the toughest it's going to get for KU this season. Down by 9 in Ames with no Doke.

We will get a chance to learn about this team in the next several minutes.

I've been busy today, what's the deal with no Doke?

Sprained right wrist in paractice.

where tf is Grimes? Our best offensive player today keeps getting subbed out for a midget who has no basketball IQ. Dotson is showing his age. Vick is proving his immaturity.

Easily the worst we’ve played so far this season. Garrett blows.