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jaybate 1.0
10346 posts
Silvio • Jun 18, 2018 07:02 PM

JayHawkFanToo said:

@HighEliteMajor

KU has gone out of its way to be careful and proactive when dealing with this type of situations as shown by not playing Diallo, Alexander and Preston even when the NCAA did not indicate they could not play. The NCAA did not officially notify KU at all that Alexander or Preston were not eligible both neither of them played after the potential/possibility of a violation was raised.

Silvio's guardian still proclaims he was not paid and until there s proof he was then it is all allegations.

At this point I don't know what to make of the FBI indictment; it is certainly in the realm of possibility that it jumped the gun before it had all its ducks in a row and now it is running into problems trying to prove the case. Doesn't it surprise you that if the allegations were true and the FBI had Sean Miller on tape we would have heard more about it and he would be out of a job? Instead, we have not heard anything else...and Miller is still coaching.

I see a lot of similarities with the Mueller Grand Jury. They indicted 13 individuals and 3 entities(including one that did not even exist when it allegedly committed the crime) and when defendants requested a speedy trial, Muller asked the Judge not to grant it because it did no have the case ready and when the defendant's lawyers asked for all new evidence they were told there was none, which would appear to indicate it the indictment was a fishing expedition to turn some of the defendants to get information and so far has not worked. The NCAA case appears to be similar insofar as the indictment seems to have been issued with the purpose of turning accused individuals and getting them to provide evidence and it has not happened. Without a conviction or at least the start of a trial, the NCAA would open itself to potential liability if it prevents an individual, presumed to be innocent, from playing college ball and potentially causing irreparable harm to his career.


Do you know if it is legal in either/or both cases for the FBI/DOJ to engage in a "fishing expedition", as you characterize "a lot of similarities" between the reputed actions of the "Mueller Grand Jury" and the reputed actions of the FBI/DOJ regarding the situation reputedly involving a petroshoeco official, Silvio, and KU?

I have been wondering about the legalities involved in fishing expeditions. Is the state within its legal authority, if it engages in "fishing expeditions?"

In the instance of the "Mueller Grand Jury", I suppose the state could plausibly assert that national security interests justified a fishing expedition.

Might be tough plausibly to argue national security interests in the Silvio situation. :-)

Silvio • Jun 18, 2018 06:39 PM

@HighEliteMajor

After some deliberation and thought, I have written (and not posted) two penetrating, and entirely different explanations of what is probably going on here with Silvio and his eligibility prospects related to the NCAA and the FBI/DOJ. I therefore infer I just don't understand what this is all about and will have to continue to wait and see. :-)

Rock Chalk!

@HighEliteMajor

Many thanks for posting the link.

As Chris Carter reminds each lead-in to the X-Files: "The truth is out there."

KU MU alumni game • Jun 18, 2018 04:54 AM

@DanR

There was no rivalry. KU was too much better. There was just habituated, chronic loathing.

If Rush wanted to raise a lot of money, he would just ask for donations to never meet again.

Silvio • Jun 18, 2018 04:36 AM

He will be a terrific player, if he gets to play.

I want to believe.

So I will!

@HighEliteMajor

So simple and it never occurred to me. This is the real power of the net. Amidst the shill and bot torrents, dot connections are shared. It’s hopeless for them. The Deep State have jacked $30 Trillion from the 5gon to poison the well and still the dots connect.

Some time has passed since the Zenger Dismissal.

Silence seems increasingly deafening.

So: who will do the hiring? Will it be Chancellor Girod, or a committee (KUAD Board of Directors if they have one) of some kind? Or will an outside advisor be retained?

Will the AD slot be left unfilled, as is increasingly fashionable in Federal hirings, during the Trump Administration, until the reputed FBI/DOJ investigation resolves?

Also, would Zenger having been dismissed change his legal status vis a vis the reputed FBI/DOJ probe? As Athletic Director, he was apparently an employee of the reputed "victim". Now he apparently is not. Any strategic legal significance for him, or KU, flowing from this reputed change of employment status vis a vis the reputed FBI/DOJ investigation?

approxinfinity said:

@jaybate-1-0 wasn't sure who locked it in the first place. Saw no record of a foul :thumbsup:

Glad to hear it Super Admin!!!!

@HighEliteMajor

The ability of an opponent to resort to this tactic at any moment after half time is what concerns me so much....if we don’t have Silvio.

20 to go.

10 to go.

5 to go.

It would make it especially tough for KU to pull one of KU’s astonishing comebacks it does once or twice a season. Those comebacks are part of “who we are” in Self Ball. Those comebacks are part of why KU players are so resilient against hardship. They never give up, because they know they happen with Self defense.

Kruger just did it a couple plays. But it worked. Others should try it longer.

Another application of this would be to stop a three point shooting team dead in its tracks—to reduce it to a FT shooting team. Even a good FT shooting team is easier to beat than a good three point shooting team. Michigan would surely have gotten back in the game with Nova, and perhaps have beaten Nova, if they had just put Nova on the line with 20 to go, even 40 to go. Nova beat people with the trey—with 3>2. Turn 3>2 into 1<3 and Nova loses.

If 3>2 is the unfair advantage, take the advantage from them.

@BShark

It would be a substantial tactical advantage to force Doke out of the game, especially if Silvio does not play this season.

@HighEliteMajor

What if the opponent tries to play KU straight up the first half, goes in the halftime tied or a few points down, and then fouls Doke every possession the second half? Then they might have enough fouls to give over only 20 minutes. And if Self responds by keeping Doke out the second half, well, then the opponent has achieved a considerable tactical advantage by forcing him out.

@HighEliteMajor

Killer analysis.The offseason decompression is sharpening you up.

Ah, this thread seems unlocked now!!

Thx @approxinfinity

FWIW, I’m not picking on Doke. I am a huge fan of his.

Rather I was fascinated by the probability opportunity and vulnerability!

Naturally, this year KU could sub Doke out to counter the dastardly tactic.

This...Is...Brilliant • Jun 16, 2018 09:06 PM

@approxinfinity

All victories by Fizzourah should be disputed!

No More Blocking Transfers • Jun 16, 2018 06:46 PM

@HighEliteMajor

Looking forward to seeing them.

Rock Chalk!

Moore • Jun 16, 2018 06:37 PM

@drgnslayr

When ever I can get you thinking about the game's frontier, I learn a lot. Thanks for responding.

Your comparison of Durant and Lebron distills things elegantly, and I hope everyone reads your post and stays to the end to read and absorb it.

All competitive activities originate in two points of view and play out according to choices that alter the opportunity sets of each other, choice by choice, for the duration of the competition.

If Kerr had signed Lebron instead of, Durant, and Durant had gone to Cleveland, it appears Lebron would have developed his trey and be draining them much as Durant is now. And Durant would likely still be feinting many more trey attempts and driving through Golden State the same way Lebron was doing.

Culture affects human being's points of view.

A team is a culture.

Durant has embraced the Golden State culture.

Lebron has embraced the Cleveland culture.

Cleveland should hire Luke Walton, or someone that gets the Golden State culture, and get on with trying to do it better with Lebron. Lebron is still the biggest athletic freak on the planet (to quote Self) at his position. Persons forget that it takes great springs and great strength to shoot the long trey. Durant is not just a great shooter, he is a great athlete on the order of Lebron, but it appears to me that Lebron still holds an advantage over Durant as a physical specimen of athletic prowess. Lebron is something like Wilt Chamberlain in that he seems able to master anything he sets his mind to master. I have little doubt that he could become the deepest trey threat of all, because of his fabulous strength.

I am not exaggerating, when I say I believe Lebron could become a proficient 40 foot trey shooter, if a coach laid in a 3pt culture and said this is what we need from you to win rings tell hell freezes over.

And here is why Lebron triggering from 40 feet, instead of Durant's triggering from 35, could be a decisive advantage for the team that decided to deploy Lebron in this way. Every foot farther out that a team initiates the trey attempts from adds a foot of trey shooting space "underneath" the farthest distance that treys are taken from. By using Lebron's fabulous strength and athleticism to become a credible threat to launch the trey from 40 feet, massively increases the area "underneath" where Lebron could dish off to for an absolutely open look trey.

Everything has changed about offense except the way we think about it. Kerr, whether on his own, or from skulling with Tex Winter, or Phil Jackson, or whomever, has exposed how the farther away from a basket a team can reliably initiate the trey the more it opens up the "underneath" trey. IMHO, what makes Golden State so tough is not just the number of treys they take, but great distance from the basket that they are willing to take them from. I have not seen statistics on this but it is my expectation that Golden State takes more open look treys than anyone else, not just more treys.

This insight occurred to me after watching Jay Wright's Villanova team in the tournament this past year. Nova didn't just take more treys, they took more from farther out. And some of them were just jaw-droopingly far out. Their Italian Stallion guard took a few from distances that I frankly could not believe he could reliably even hit the rim. But he was deadly. Then when you go back an think about what his super long treys did to the "spacing" in the three point area of the court, one sees the offenders basically able to be another 5-8 feet farther apart from the ball. When their longest long ball threat was working out front, and even threatening to take a trey, the defenders on the wings had to EITHER float out much closer to the wing they were guarding, OR they had to float out much farther into the passing lane. Either choice resulted in the wing man having MUCH MORE room to move to get open and to shoot the trey from a convenient arch for him. Not all of Nova's trifectates could take and make the 35 footer like the Italian stallion, but having him out front posing the threat fantastically opened up the three point are "underneath" for open looks by guys who needed to receive the ball 23-27 out. I believe this effect goes on with Golden State, also. And Golden State has two guys--Curry and Durant--that can shoot it from high earth orbit. And the real force multiplier comes when one of them is out at 35 feet threatening to take the trey and the other is "underneath" looking for an open look 28 footer, which is practically a mid range jumper for this quality of professional shooter.

Hence, my hunch is that if a team were to leverage Lebron's freakish athleticism to learn to gun a 40 foot trey, instead of a 30 foot trey, and get him two teammates capable of shooting the 25-35 foot trey, Lebron' s team might get even more open look, uncontested treys than GS.

Yes, at some distance with some athletes there are diminishing returns on make rates.

Maybe Kerr sets the 35 foot range where he does, because that is what Durant and Curry can handle.

All the better to see if Lebron can learn to be the first king of the 40 foot three.

The inside game will not disappear. It will adjust to the long rebounding you describe and to having better and better passers for big men. Developing big men that can not only range and grab the long rebounds, but also either take and make the trey, or, more likely, pass like guards and hit the open trey shooters in the hands on the way up for their long treys seems the future of big men to me at the pro level.

And what happens at the pro level inevitably trickles down over time, usually in diluted form, to the college game.

Puma signs Bagley, looks to sign others • Jun 16, 2018 05:49 PM

@HighEliteMajor

Thx 4 the assist!!!!!!

The linked story appears dated 1-2018.

And it acknowledges that Puma had been repositioning for some time before the move by Kering SA was announced. Kering SA's apparently tight (bustier tight?) control of Puma likely prevented predation on Puma's stock, as well as protection from stock value crashes, while Puma was restructured and repositioned.

So: who is Kering SA? I am so fashion challenged, I didn't know them. Let's see. They reputedly own the following brands:

Gucci

Saint Laurent

Bottega Veneta

Balenciaga

Alexander McQueen

McQ

Stella McCartney

Brioni

Christopher Kane

Boucheron

Pomellato

Dodo

Qeelin

Ulysse Nardin

Girard-Perregaux

Kering Eyewear

My, my, Puma basketball treads have moved up town, haven't they?

"French luxury group Kering, owner of approximately 86% of PUMA’s total share capital, announced earlier today that it will propose to its Annual General Meeting to distribute approximately 70% of the total share capital of PUMA to Kering’s shareholders, thus reducing its shareholding in PUMA to approximately 16%."

--from the linked story you posted above

That's kind of nice of Kering SA to do for Puma and for its "shareholders," isn't it?

It apparently is intended to free up a lot of Puma shares to be bought up by those that expect the market to look favorably on the recent ways Puma has apparently been restaffed, restructured, and repositioned, whilst under the wing of Kering SA.

I wonder if some of those buyers might include the big three investment managers seeking to "rationalize" a producer oligopoly for petroshoes and petrowear by adding a revamped player to the producer oligopoly for increased "stability"?

I also wonder who the shareholders are that the shares will be distributed to, and/or who will buy up the shares released to those shareholders? That part is not in the story, is it?

No, wait, I don't wonder. I just saw Kering SA's corporate logo.

If invited, I decline to attend this bal masque ball.

You should, too.

Nevertheless, I will hazard a wild guess that repositioned Puma might become a rising and enduring factor in the endorsement end of the greatest game ever invented.

But its just a wild guess, of course.

No More Blocking Transfers • Jun 16, 2018 04:42 PM

HighEliteMajor said:

@jaybate-1-0 Your thread on fouling Doke got locked .. do you know why?

@BShark? @approxinfinity?


Thanks for asking. No, I don't. Guessed it was some kind of a software glitch, or operator error, or prank. But who knows? Didn't notice other threads of mine locked. FWIW, I don't know how to lock, or unlock a thread.

No More Blocking Transfers • Jun 16, 2018 12:55 PM

DanR said:

HighEliteMajor said:

@DanR No, actually it is easy to argue about a kid who is told to move on. When Vick came to Kansas, what was the deal? Did he sign a four year guaranteed deal, or did he sign a deal that either party could terminate at will, with the only real condition if terminated that the player had to sit a year? It business, that's a non-compete.

Why is it that if Vick just decided to walk away, no one worries about the position that Vick puts Kansas in? He can leave at any time, and go anywhere he wants. Heck, he can leave midseason and leave the team hanging. Self can't cut his scholarship midseason. The only thing he can't do, in the entire world, is play D-1 basketball for a season.

Yes, those are the current rules, and that's what we're talking about here -- re-writing the rules. I agree that if a kid bails by choice (your second paragraph), he should have to sit a year. I think that's a good and fair rule.

But if a coach decides to force out a player, and the kid wants to stay, I would argue that it doesn't hurt the coach or school one bit if the kid plays for a different D1 school the next year. Discipline problems aside (breach of contract), if the kid is so talented he'll help the competition too much instead of sitting on your bench, maybe he shouldn't have been cut. Frankamp, for example. Did he leave us short handed? No. Obviously that situation wasn't working out. A clean break would be better for the coach and the kid, IMO.

Every kid "cut" by Self... I can't think of one he let go that ever came back to bite us in the ass. Don't want them, just let 'em play somewhere else. I think there should be an option where a coach can say, I've released him from the "non-compete." (That happens in the business world too.)

————

Incredibly cogent.

This is reason at its best.

You have created a face saving rationale and path for change here the TPTB could pick up and live with.

Moore • Jun 15, 2018 09:23 PM

drgnslayr said:

@jaybate-1.0

I understand the fear.

But let's face it... any team we face that gets hot from trey is a team we can lose to, regardless of their personnel or ours.

This is why I think what Jay did is so important to learn the lesson of.

With six > 39% trey balllers and all but two ranked 75-100 (that was for @BShark), you can win most of the time even against teams with only 2-3 >39% trey ballers, even when they are hot!

Basically, for you to lose with 6 trey ballers all six have to blow cold. It just doesn’t matter much what the other team does.

Moore • Jun 15, 2018 09:17 PM

mayjay said:

@jaybate-1.0 Aberrations are the new normal.

Well put.

In statistical terms, the formal and informal institutions have been parameters recalibrated to bias toward greater sigma around mu. 🤓

It does no oligarchy much good to rig a system to stasis (low variance), for that makes it hard to unstick and redirect the system brought under control (at considerable shifted cost) where you want it to go.

Gotta design in a little wiggle to reduce stickiness.

And the more you control you have the more variance you can afford to (and so want to) design in, so that stickiness becomes almost no obstacle at all.

Strange tendencies within what appears frightening chaos to others can be as good of ally as order in moving complex systems off their legacy equilibrium strategy.

This was one of the most impactful insights of chaos and complexity theories application in systems management.

Or so it seems to this fan.

But you still have to be vigilant about unforeseen consequences

Moore • Jun 15, 2018 09:15 PM

@JayHawkFanToo

Evan Manning?

Um, no.

Two rotation players the same season that start the same season as 30% brickers from the previous season and end up >39%ers with > 100 3pt attempts. Capice?

I love it when you reach desperately though!!!!

Hey, I’ll go you one better! (Nudge, nudge, wink, wink)

I also went from 25% to 50% in 4 three point attempts in a grey hair league!!!!! That’s a total of three: Svi, Manning and Me!!!

You were saying? 😂

Say, is Rummie a big Trump supporter?

Trump is starting look more and more like Jeremiah Johnson, isn’t he?

Oh, eh, u don’t like political talk mixed in. I withdraw the comment.

Moore • Jun 15, 2018 08:48 PM

JayHawkFanToo said:

@BShark

...when in reality Villanova was an aberration and far from the norm.

——————

Can an aberration be near the norm, or would it just be near the norm?

I don’t see how a 10 Deep team could lose to KU, if it fouled Doke six times without the ball on the first possession (using six different players) to intentionally put KU in the 1&1 immediately, and then fouled Doke without the ball every possession thereafter.

It would only be down 3-4 at the end of KU’s first possession.

Then it would limit KU to shooting 1&1 the rest of the way.

Each possession it would foul Doke with a different player, so as to keep anyone player from getting fouled up till late in the game, when it had a big lead.

A 10 rotation team would likely be able to hold KU to an average of slightly < 1 point per possession for 50 possessions of Doke shooting 1&1. It would not have to guard any of KU’s great athleticism, so it could do this with its marginal players and even just walk-ons on the defensive end. It could foul Doke in transition in likely 1&1 areas of the floor. It could even afford a few intentional 2-shot calls.

At each FTA, the opponent inserts its best players for offensive possession. Each time Doke makes a FT, the opponent goes down and shoots a trey. Each time he misses the front end of the 1&1 it goes down and plays for the highest percentage 2 pt shot.

The net result is that the inferior opponent scores from 2 to 1 or 3 to 1 more points than KU at least half the possessions.

In a 60 possession game that would be more or less between 15 and 30 points more than KU even with inferior talent.

Whoa!!

Moore • Jun 15, 2018 04:42 PM

drgnslayr said:

@jaybate-1.0

I'm hearing that everyone except maybe Doke is working hard on their threy accuracy this summer!

We'll find a couple of good shooters... long ways to go until tip off!

———————

I never recall more than one mid 30% bricker transmogrifying into a 40% trifectater in a single season, do you?

Therefore the odds of even two of our guys reaching the 40% level seem slim.

And frankly, a team apparently needs at least 3 even to hang on against other teams with 4-6 from the Elite on.

I fear the days of Elite Eight and higher teams with only 1 > 39% trifectaters are behind us, maybe even with only two, also.

But I like your optimism!

Moore • Jun 15, 2018 04:33 PM

@KUSTEVE

I agree, except for Silvio. He is just too good to keep off the floor, UNLESS....unless he and Jay Wright and Bill Self and Jay Bilas are already in some kind of @BShark insider knowledge based, purely conjectural, but fantastically high confidence witness relocation program as we type. Booga booga! 😀

“Paranoia strikes deep

Into your heart it will creep...”

—Buffalo Springfield, “For What It’s Worth”

Ahem.

Self tries to get his best 5 guys on the floor.

U r probably right at season’s start.

I guess Silvio could back up all year, because he has less experience than Ded and Doke, but...

Wow! Silvio seems a potential NBA stud to me already with just a half season of grooming.

Silvio seems the best big Self has recruited other than The Lion Slayer.

Normally he would sit and learn for a season, but he sat and learned half a season last year instead of attending Prom!

OMG!

Self has to find a place for him at tip off, by mid season, if @BShark, the Feds and the NCAA don’t deny him.

Puma signs Bagley, looks to sign others • Jun 15, 2018 03:57 PM

The thing to do now is study Puma’s stock ownership profile and see which large investment manager has taken a recent major position there in the last 12-24 months or so. It likely takes them awhile to move in, internally restructure, shape and then implement new market strategy.

The Anglo-American Private oligarchy reputedly tends to use one to three big ones to acquire control of producers to reorder targeted producer markets—either diversified ones, or monopolized ones not under their control—into 3-12 player producer oligopolies under their control. One or more of them reputedly get untraceable gimmies directly or indirectly from the President’s Plunge Protection window from time to time to help out the process. Shouldn’t we all be so lucky?

Anyway, knowing that might signal whether Bagley is an anomaly or a harbinger of a likely long term process incorporating Puma back into the thick of things.

Rock Chalk!

Moore • Jun 15, 2018 11:31 AM

BShark said:

@drgnslayr I think he used to be more involved but isn't anymore. This is just pure conjecture on my part but man, the 4 I mentioned were very dirty recruitments.

—————-

You appear to conjecture purely that “the system” is dirty and so makes Jay Wright and Bill Self recruit as “dirty” as you conjecture purely that they do.

Who do you conjecture purely is responsible for dirtying the system so that Jay Wright and Bill Self appear to recruit as dirty as you appear to conjecture purely that they do?

Note: My question is purely conjecture.

Kansas voted 3rd easiest schedule in CFB • Jun 15, 2018 04:41 AM

My multi undefeated season YMCA team once scheduled an easy team thinking it would be hilarious to audible on them—Kansas School for the Deaf. They kicked our asses.

They even ran something like audibles, but they were inaudibles and completely fooled us half the plays.

As Hilary discovered, gotta be careful of those you’re sure you can beat.

Moore • Jun 15, 2018 04:29 AM

@approxinfinity

Be brave. I have not run that gamut, but can imagine great pride/love and some trepidation mix for a strong life cocktail.

Moore • Jun 15, 2018 04:25 AM

BShark said:

jaybate 1.0 said:

BShark said:

@drgnslayr I think he used to be more involved but isn't anymore. This is just pure conjecture on my part but man, the 4 I mentioned were very dirty recruitments.

—————-

Evidence please.

Didn't you once tell me that it's not on you for me to research your claim? Just look into each one yourself via internet search. I'm not going to "do your legwork".

——————

Now I recall reading where you’re kind of indulging me and I feel that’s some common ground we share and can build on, for I feel I am kind of doing the same with you.

Next , I said please regarding evidence, didn’t i? I didn’t give you an order, or demand you do it. I should get a kudo for that.

Next, you appeared to suggest you knew something specifically about what Self and KU had done that was “dirty” in each case, so since I don’t know of such info, I thought I ought to ask . And it seemed you could type it off the top of your head. But I’m ok with you not. I try in good faith to take what you give me.

Regardless, to give you the benefit of the doubt, I was hoping you might have something substantive that made you be so sure, because I have read some accounts about some of these examples over the years and recall not reading of any evidence that seemed beyond a reasonable doubt to implicate Self and/or KU in any thing illegal. But I am a legal layman and a fan and so I thought maybe you knew more, but now it appears you didn’t find anything more incriminating beyond a reasonable doubt than I did. I infer you found “indications” of “dirtiness.” Dirtiness is not a legal term of art that I am aware of, so I infer you are not using it to indicate Self or KU committed a felony, right?

FWIW, since reading Murray Sperber’s 1990 “College Sports, Inc.,” and Dan Wetzel’s 2000 “Sole Influence” I have guessed many, if not most D1 recruits and players have received considerations in various forms that would not be in full conformity with NCAA regulations, but I am not clear about whether any illegality has been widespread or not. I have tended to guess that the rarity of criminal convictions in college basketball indicated illegality was either not prevalent, or else so widespread as to be like certain kinds of political and law enforcement corruption treated as normalized and give a blind eye. I could never tell which.

You, however, seem to write as if you know for a fact what goes on with Self both in terms of “dirty” and/or “illegal”, but then stop short, at least in my recall, of supplying evidence beyond a reasonable doubt proving Self’s culpable role, especially regarding illegalities. In short, there seems a gap between your apparently confident assertions about Self’s culpability and the evidence. Further your assertions do not yet appear to square with the fact he has not been convicted, or even charged, with any illegalities in procuring players over several decades at several schools.

And when I add in that the reputed FBI/DOJ remarks reputedly characterize KU as a victim, well, then I am not clear why you believe what you appear to believe.

Moore • Jun 15, 2018 03:09 AM

I guessed you were joking, and it gave me a good laugh, as you are blessed with a fine sense of humor, but this experience of disatisfaction with change over a lifetime appears widespread in perception among individuals, yet coped with quite differently by each of them. Humor goes quite a way as a saave. But the dissatisfaction can be quite corrosive and life draining for some, while others find positive paths through the sticky wicket. I don’t know the answers of how to avoid the corrosion and stay positive. I am a horse in mid stream still in the big two hearted river. But I can at least share the issue, so others do not think they are alone. Or think something is wrong with them. It’s human as nearly as I can tell.

Rock Chalk!!!

Moore • Jun 15, 2018 12:04 AM

REMARKS IN CAPS

BShark said:

Nic Moore.

Ah yes poor HCBS. [CANT EVEN SIGN 4 CREDIBLE D1 BIGS CLEARED TO PLAY LAST SEASON. CANT EVEN SIGN BACKUPS FOR THE PERIMETER. IS THAT WHAT YOU MEAN?]The system works against him at every ]turn. [CANT SIGN OAD 1/5S. CANT SIGN A LONG OR MEDIUM STACK. IS THAT WHAT YOU MEAN? Meanwhile the great rankings cover-up makes Jay Wright (an excellent talent evaluator and coach in reality [RED PILL OR BLUE?]) look much better than he really is! [.600 TILL SUDDEN TRANSFORMATION] When you factor in that KU never gets calls [GOT’EM AGAINST WVU] well gosh it's rather amazing HCBS has the will to field a team. [HE APPARENTLY GETS A KICK OUT OF INFURIATING THE ASYMMETRIC SYSTEM WHILE CLIPPING $10M COUPONS!] A true maverick, [YUP!] a renegade trying to defeat the system [HE ALREADY BEAT IT. HOF!] that definitely doesn't funnel him players too [BUT SPOTS THEM 6-10 TO HIS 2-3 . :rolling_eyes: ROTFLMAO!

———————

I have seen so many come and go. Please. Play nice. You can do it. It’s a friendly community.

No More Blocking Transfers • Jun 14, 2018 11:00 PM

The NCAA appears to be retreating in increments on all fronts under the cloud of this investigation somewhat as Churchill retreated in all directions in the face of overwhelming opposition to messes GB had created by being too clever by half since Versailles. Churchill was retreating to bait “Jerry and the Jap” into over reaching and creating allies for GB that had behaved so duplicity it had none. It worked effectively, if brutally.

Similarly, the NCAA, which many have not viewed as a symbol of principle, appears to be hoping Big Oil and Big Shoe overreach and create allies for the NCAA, where there appear none.

Doubt it will work though.

The NCAA’s future seems increasingly to be a front for BIG PETROWEAR/BIG OIL, or maybe for their opponents.

The late Murray Sperber has to be shaking his head in heaven and saying, “See? Ya shoulda listened to me!”

Moore • Jun 14, 2018 10:42 PM

BShark said:

I do dislike fan fiction in general yes. However some good has come of it, like Sergio Leonne westerns but I digress.

Brunson was always highly ranked, I know this because KU recruited him. I can't answer on Spellman.

The KU bump isn't as big as say, the Duke bump but Marcus Garrett did go from unranked to near top 50. In the last class, Dotson and Grimes were always highly ranked. McCormack bumped up a bit I think. Agbaji went from being a relative unknown, barely top 300 to 128. Probably would have happened if he ended up at say, Wisconsin, which he almost did. He got tons of interest late from major programs which always make the rankings guys spin around a bit.

I don't think Jay or Self will end up being indicted. Especially given that we have already seen KU players named, but no one even tangentially related to KU. It SEEMS for the time being that KU (and Nova for that matter) are safe.

——————

Thanks for getting real.

I was about to call your doctor!

No, wait, that’s your line.

😀

Moore • Jun 14, 2018 10:39 PM

BShark said:

@drgnslayr I think he used to be more involved but isn't anymore. This is just pure conjecture on my part but man, the 4 I mentioned were very dirty recruitments.

—————-

Evidence please.

Moore • Jun 14, 2018 10:38 PM

BShark said:

JayHawkFanToo said:

mayjay said:

With redacted geting on a roll lately, scrolling through his posts is helping me get in great shape for the many expected thumb wrestling contests during our g-kids upcoming visit home!

Page Down works well. Also the down arrow on the band at the top of the screen allows you to skip to the next post quickly...:smile:

I should really do this instead of engaging/humoring him.

——————

By George, he is catching on!!!!

First Kim saw the light with Trump.

And now @BShark catches on.

Halaleujah!!!!

Moore • Jun 14, 2018 10:36 PM

mayjay said:

@drgnslayr The rest of y'all may be guilty, but I am now, and have always been, innocent and have never cheated in any fashion. Mr. Boline's accusation in 11th grade Trigonometry was without foundation, all rumors to the contrary notwithstanding.

——————-

Was Mr. Boline a member of the Deep State?

Moore • Jun 14, 2018 10:32 PM

JayHawkFanToo said:

mayjay said:

With @jaybate-1-0 geting on a roll lately, scrolling through his posts is helping me get in great shape for the many expected thumb wrestling contests during our g-kids upcoming visit home!

Page Down works well. Also the down arrow on the band at the top of the screen allows you to skip to the next post quickly...:smile:

————

You both are finally getting it!!!

Scroll, baby scroll!

It’s always worked for me

Howling!

Moore • Jun 14, 2018 10:15 PM

@drgnslayr

Agreed, but man was it nice to have had trey dingers like Sherron, Frank and Devonte!

And we will have to hope the game turns away from teams having 3-6 > 39% trey dingers in their regular rotations during the next couple years.

Moore • Jun 14, 2018 10:09 PM

@mayjay

C’mon, man up and hit that key board!

Moore • Jun 14, 2018 10:02 PM

SEE REMARKS IN CAPS

BShark said:

You appear to have a fanfiction narrative regarding KU. [DON'T TELL ME YOU HATE FAN FICTION, TOO!!!!! } Now to address some things since you asked.

Jay is a good coach. [JAY WAS A .600 COACH BEFORE A FEW YEARS AGO. IS THAT WHAT YOU MEANT BY GOOD?] Omari Spellman was #20, Brunson #22. [I DID NOT KNOW THAT. THANK YOU FOR ADDING THAT TO THE DISCUSSION. WERE THEY RANKED THAT HIGH WHEN JAY SIGNED THEM, OR AFTER HE SIGNED THEM? THAT'S A PHENOMENON THAT HAPPENS SOMETIMES WITH KU RECRUITS. THEIR RANK ASCENDS AFTER THEY SIGN. HOW ABOUT WITH NOVA? I DON'T FOLLOW THEM AS CLOSELY AS YOU SEEM TO.] Not exactly sub 75. Let me know when Villanova is named in the indictment. [I WILL, IF THAT IS WHAT YOU WOULD LIKE. BUT WHY DO YOU CARE ABOUT VILLANOVA BEING NAMED IN AN INDICTMENT, OR NOT? I THOUGHT YOU WERE A KU FAN, RIGHT? YOU WANT ME TO TELL YOU IF NOVA IS IDENTIFIED AS A VICTIM IN THE INDICTMENT, RIGHT? AND ARE YOU INSINUATING YOU HAVE INSIDER INFORMATION ABOUT KU---THE REPUTEDLY REPORTED VICTIM--BEING INDICTED? THAT WOULD SEEM TO INVOLVE SOMEONE BREAKING THE LAW GIVING IT TO YOU? SHOULD'T YOU GO TO THE AUTHORITIES WITH THIS APPARENTLY INSIDER INFORMATION AND REPORT IT? OR ARE YOU JUST SPECULATING WITHOUT INSIDER INFORMATION AND WITHOUT BEING A LEGAL PROFESSIONAL? I AM NOT CRITICISING YOU EITHER WAY. YOU JUST HAVEN'T MADE THESE ISSUES VERY CLEAR TO ME YET.]

Funneling as in Adidas paying players to pick an Adidas school/KU.[WHY DO YOU CALL IT FUNNELLING? WHY DON'T YOU JUST CALL IT PAYING PLAYERS. IS IT ILLEGAL TO PAY PLAYERS, OR JUST A VIOLATION OF NCAA RULES, OR BOTH? IF SO HOW? AND WHY IS SELF ABLE TO FUNNEL SO FEW PLAYERS THAT HE HAD ALMOST NO DEPTH AT THE POST LAST SEASON--CERTAINLY NO THREE POINT SHOOTING POST MEN LIKE NOVA, RIGHT? WHY DOES SELF HAVE SO MUCH TROUBLE FUNNELING PLAYERS WITH MONEY, WHEN YOU MAKE IT SEEM LIKE JAY DOESN'T EVEN HAVE TO FUNNEL AT ALL TO SIGN 1-75 PLAYERS AND 75-100 PLAYERS THAT PLAY BETTER THAN 1-75 PLAYERS? TRYING TO UNDERSTAND YOUR THINKING HERE. I DIDN'T KNOW NOVA HAD A BUNCH OF 1-75 RANKED PLAYERS.MAYBE YOU KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT WHY SELF RECRUITS WORSE PAYING PLAYERS THAN JAY NOT--IF YOU KNOW HE ISN'T.] Self played the game. [HOW CAN YOU BE SO SURE? I MEAN, YOU APPEAR TO BE IMPLYING A .600 COACH A FEW YEARS BACK, LIKE JAY WRIGHT, WAS, CAN SIGN 1-75 GUYS LIKE SELBY, COLLINS, WRIGHT, ARTHUR, ETC., WITHOUT EVEN PAYING THEM, BUT FOR SOME REASON YOU ARE POSITIVE SELF PAYS PLAYERS AND THAT KU, IDENTIFIED AS A VICTIM, IS GOING TO BE INDICTED. I JUST DON'T FOLLOW HOW YOU CAN BE SO SURE ABOUT ALL OF THIS. I AM PRETTY CONFUSED ABOUT ALL OF THIS, AND I DON'T CLAIM TO KNOW EVERYTHING YOU DO. I AM NOT SAYING YOU DON'T KNOW. I AM SAYING I DON'T SEE HOW YOU KNOW? MAYBE YOU WILL EXPLAIN HOW YOU KNOW FOR SURE.]. Selby, Collins, Wright, Arthur etc... If you think those were clean I don't know what to tell you. [WELL, IF JAY CAN RECRUIT 1-75 GUYS AND BE CLEAN, WHY CAN'T BILL? I DON'T FOLLOW YOUR REASONING.] There were others too [WHO EXACTLY?], but those 4 were perhaps the most glaring.[THEY DON'T SEEM GLARING TO ME. I AM NOT EVEN SURE WHAT GLARING MEANS IN A LEGAL SENSE. I DON'T FOLLOW YOU HERE EITHER. AND I AM TRYING.] It's a good thing the probe came later, though as we found out...Preston was paid. Josh was paid. Not by KU or Self, it's just the way the system works.[AH, SO YOU APPEAR TO BE SAYING THAT THE 1-75 PLAYERS SELF AND JAY SIGN ARE PAID; THAT THAT IS JUST HOW THE SYSTEM WORKS, BUT THAT SELF AND JAY WRIGHT TO NOT PAY THEM, AND THE SCHOOLS DO NOT PAY THEM. HMMM. SO: YOU APPEAR TO BE IMPLYING THAT SELF AND KU AND JAY AND NOVA WILL NOT BE INDICTED, BECAUSE THEY DID NOT PAY THESE PLAYERS; RATHER, THE "SYSTEM" DID. IS THAT ABOUT THE GIST OF IT? YOU SEEM TO BE SAYING NEITHER JAY AND NOVA, NOR BILL AND KU WILL BE INDICTED. WELL, I AGREE, BUT I JUST DON'T HAVE THE KIND OF KNOWLEDGE BASE THAT YOU APPEAR TO HAVE THAT APPEARS TO MAKE YOU BE SO SURE. I JUST DOUBT THAT EITHER BILL AND KU, OR JAY AND NOVA WILL BE INDICTED. ROCK CHALK!


Moore • Jun 14, 2018 09:26 PM

mayjay said:

With @jaybate-1-0 geting on a roll lately, scrolling through his posts is helping me get in great shape for the many expected thumb wrestling contests during our g-kids upcoming visit home!

Please write longer posts, so I too can get in great shape!!!! I depend on you.

Moore • Jun 14, 2018 09:04 PM

BShark said:

Nic Moore.

Ah yes poor HCBS. The system works against him at every turn. Meanwhile the great rankings cover-up makes Jay Wright (an excellent talent evaluator and coach in reality) look much better than he really is! When you factor in that KU never gets calls well gosh it's rather amazing HCBS has the will to field a team. A true maverick, a renegade trying to defeat the system that definitely doesn't funnel him players too. :rolling_eyes:


First you appear to be polishing a turd, when apparently trying to use conspiracy hooey to distract from the "fact" that Nova played 6 > 39% trey shooters reputedly ranked 75-100 that outscored and out defended teams stocked with reputedly 1-75 ranked players. How did Jay do it? How did a guy who was a .600 coach prior to a few years back (if I recall correctly) get 75-100 ranked players to walk all over 1-75 ranked players for a season and a post season? How did those darned 75-100 ranked players steamroll those 1-75 rank players? Are the rankings completely unreliable? Or are you trying to tell me that a guy that was a career .600 coach prior to a few years ago suddenly figured out the key to making 75-100 rank players walk all over 1-75 rank players?! How did Jay do it? I don't believe in conspiracies, or cover ups. I am asking how did he do it? Do you understand the difference?

Next, and as I have related to you recently, I categorically reject the idea of a conspiracy, or a cover up in this situation. I don't believe anyone is covering anything up. Conspiracies are for suckers, unless the authorities prove them.

Next, some questions:

  1. What is the legal definition of funneling you refer to? Is there a law against being "funneled" players? or is there a law against certain ways of funneling players that Self has never been convicted of, or even charged with so far?

  2. If Self were being funneled players, and if this funneling were illegal, why would Self not be being funneled as many players as other coaches at elite programs were being funneled?

Might I suggest an electric orbital sander for you polishing needs?

Moore • Jun 14, 2018 08:27 PM

@approxinfinity

Its very frustrating to realize that the game you loved is being changed by rules that yield foreseen, and unforeseen, consequences you don't enjoy, and wish were able to be reversed.

It is one of the less pleasant aspects of aging. As with any rules changes, basketball rules changes usually have short and long term effects. When we are young, all we have to reconcile with are the short term effects, which to us are sudden, sharp, and which we make quick reconciliation with by either accepting, and continuing on with our participation in the games, or by saying, "Phooie with this, I don't like this game anymore and I am moving on to other games."

But the longer term effects of rules changes to games surface much later and they often hit us after 30, but certainly after 40. In mid life we begin to REALLY resent these changes, because: a.) we are highly invested in the games by then; and b.) we sense there is little chance that this change is going to wind back toward what we prefer, and we have had enough prior experience with negative fall out from rules changes, to be pessimistic that anything new and improved will result.

Further, long term change emerging in our 50-60s leaves us frankly bitter, and tempted by a cynicism we have to wage a constant battle against being consumed by. We realize we are unlikely to live long enough to see this undesirable change remedied,precisely because it has taken so long for it to evolve and emerge, and we know how hard it is to change anything constructively as we age. The older we get the more we realize that change tends to occur as a result of small groups of wealthy influential individuals and their firms exploiting a vulnerability in the system of a game with the sole intent of enriching themselves, while pushing the costs of their pursuit of enrichment on to those not strong enough, or rich enough, or well organized enough, to resist the change exploitative change.

I am expounding on this at the risk of boring you for a reason.

Game theory and institutions, when studied, call attentions to assumptions, rules, incentives, strategies and tendencies of play. They sensitize us--through modeling what games and the aspects of competition the games may simulate--to the individual's subjective tendency to over emphasize his POV as being most characteristic of the full panoply of play, and underestimating the influence of institutions (rules) and the strategic incentives of others interplaying with his POV and agenda to generate what is actually probable, or even possible.

Games of all kinds have much to teach us about broadening our POVs, beyond the simple enjoyment of games, and beyond how to play them well, or be knowledgeable fans and appreciate them well.

They also teach us a considerable amount about our frustrations in life, as well as what is and is not likely, regarding many competitive aspects of the world in which we live (if we are luck).

There is a concept in the study of institutions (and the game theory used to model and analyze potential institutional effects) called "institutional stickiness."

Distilled, it is easier to make and impose new rules, than revise, or get rid of old rules, because institutions are "sticky."

They get entangled and cemented into economic and political eco systems, if you will.
It is a very powerful concept, that is embraced as a kind of heuristic, that probably implies a profound underlying law of the 19th Century kind that is simply to difficult and costly to formalize, so we keep it handy as a heuristic.

Problems tempting us to solve them by imposition of rules are often very simply understood and narrowly defined.

We want problems to go away, because problems are painful.

The more simply we define problems, the fewer persons there are we have to admit are impacted by solutions proposed. So: there is real practical (if selfish) expedience and strategic self-benefit to oversimplifying problems and who will be impacted by their solution. And it almost goes without saying that cost shifting is essentially taboo to discuss until after it has been shifted.

Thus, a proposed rule intends to solve a problem defined simplistically, whether a good rule, or a stupid one, but here is the great appeal of a rule: it has little cost of materials in the making of the rule. Its black ink on white paper. Sometimes its just pixels. All it takes is a few persons that think they will benefit handsomely from creating it, plus their perception that it won't cost too much to get the rule agreed to and imposed on all of us, plus their perception that any large foreseeable and unforeseeable costs triggered will not have to be born by the small group advocating for the new rule.

Thus, there is a tendency to impose new rules, independently of whether there is a problem fixable by rules, or fixable by the rule proposed, that is driven by how much wealth is to be achieved by the small group advocating the rule and by their ability to make others accept imposition of the rule based on their belief that that new rule will make things better.

Alas, when the lying and side payments are done, many go along to get along, and almost no thinks about the unforeseen consequences, because, well, they are unforeseen. :-)

But the conditions for change are quite different, when one considers changing, or repealing a bad rule that has been around for awhile.

First, the bad rule that has been around for awhile, has likely been enriching those that promoted the rule in the first place. So: they are one influential constituency obstructing its revision, or repeal, unless they think they can come up with a rule change that continues their enrichment, or increase it.

Second, all rules, but especially bad ones, trigger a lot of sunk costs in compensating for them. All kinds of expertise from all kinds of fields is brought to bear on problems caused by bad rules to help us live with those problems until the bad rule is changed. Its bitterly ironic, but bad rules are often actually far more cemented in place by sunk costs accreted around helping us compensate for and endure the side effects of bad rules, than are good rules that seem to require little or no professional expertise to perpetuate.

Hence, even the worst rules, maybe especially the worst ideas, become vast professional and enterprise arrays of networked sunk costs embedded in the politics and economy of a culture.

We see this played out even in the seemingly innocuous game of basketball.

It seemed a good idea (to some) to let the petroshoecos give the universities and coaches endorsement money. It meant we tax payers had to pay less for the minor sports and less for hiring the coach, and so on. But down stream, we discovered (or should I say the FBI/DOJ reputedly discovered) somewhat to our chagrins that petroshoecos require certain distributions of talent among schools to pursue their business interests and this leads into incentive methods that lead into all sorts of compliance issues and PR issues and so on that require all manner of experts in law, contracting, admissions compliance, and so on to handle the risk and pain of funding minor sports and coaches salaries increasingly through the petroshoecos. And of course the petroshoecos are part of an emerging petrowear industry trying to migrate the world off natural fibers and onto petro fibers, and trying to use slave/child/peonage labor overseas in countries with often hostile political systems to achieve big margins, and using globally marketed basketball stars to increase petrowear sales abroad and at home,, and this draws Big Oil into the equation (petrowear is a huge market and so a big consumer of oil). And, well, universities are often one of the most critical and largest cash cycle activities in a state and so Big Oil and Big Shoe may have overlapping interests/agendas in both markets and politics for oil exports, oil imports, fracking, natural gas development, helium for moving gas through pipelines, oil dome storage capacities, strategic oil reserves, and so on that a state university and its state government and elected officials might be useful in promoting.

All of the preceding makes it so the folks wagging the tail of basketball would also benefit from wagging the tail of the university, and the board of regents and the state house, which still funds quite a bit of the university budget and which influences the state's choices on political economy issues influencing all manner of linkages with this now vast array of interconnected organizational interests inside and outside government.

Comical as it sounds, changing the three point stripe one foot in (or out) could have one effect on the game (or other), but also possibly a further ripple effect outwards through the organizations I have just outlined. Often, the effect of a change in the three point stripe would be insignificant in term of foreseeable outcomes. All folks can see that. But big players like Big Oil and Big Shoe and Big Government are creatures of complexity. They live with complexity and the unforeseen consequences of interacting with that complexity 24/7, or at least quarterly in their statements that drive their stock values and particularly the incentive clauses of management.

Complexity and unforeseen consequences make the Big Players prefer changes that either perpetuate the status quo (something in your example, that you increasingly find objectionable), or change that so vastly benefits them alone that they do not have to worry much about unforeseen consequential enrichment of potential adversaries downstream. As a result, in the tiny insignificant backwater of college basketball, either nothing in the way of rules changes can happen without the watchful, cautious eye of this vast network of self interested big players, even for good reason, or only something that vastly, asymmetrically enriches those already embedded and being nourished like ticks attached to a blood reservoir the size of the Lake of the Ozarks. (Note: Jason Bateman's OZARKS series, though not filmed much on location, is quite fascinating in a dark, one-eyed, occult sort of green tinged light way, but I digress.).

All of the above is a long way of saying be careful what new rules you wish for, because you only have to enrich a relative few to bring them about. And don't hold out a lot of hope for changing bad rules without one helluva dog fight, because existing rules are cemented in often vast and unexpected ways to unexpected players that you may not have the fire power to face down and prevail over.

The above is old news and mastery of the obvious to many.

But sometimes old news is worth remastering in an age of fake news.

Rock Chalk!

Moore • Jun 14, 2018 07:54 AM

@approxinfinity

Your palpable disgust with the kind of play 3 > 2 seems to be generating reminds me of my father's disgust at first the proliferation of the one handed jump shot that made the long range two handed set shot obsolete.

It also reminds me of many others of his generation and their dissatisfaction with the proliferation of the dunk, which largely obsoleted the hook shot and the layup.

Further, it reminds me of me back during the mid 1990s (culminating in the dreadful 2000 championship slugfest between MSU and UW) grumbling about the referees apparent decision to "let'em play football" and the rise of the prison body bigs that literally knocked drivers into the cheap seats at times.

All rules changes trigger both foreseen and unforeseen effects, and desirable, and undesirable styles of play.

Rules determine the path tendency of interplay.

Rules changes change that path tendency.

Some times the changes come instantly, other times slowly.

The three point shot was first tried in a college game in 1945 and then rejected.

It was not instituted until 1967-68 in the ABA. Seven foot former center Commissioner George Mikan said the three point basket would help keep the little man in basketball and open up the defense to make the game more enjoyable for fans. The ABA also encouraged slam dunking to attract fans as well.

The NBA followed suit in 1980 with a 23-9 trey stripe.

FIBA followed in 1984.

From 1980 to 1985, the college three point shot came conference by conference . The Southern conference was first. Most followed the next year and from 1981 to 1985 the three point stripe ranged from 17-9 to 22-9 away from the basket. Interestingly, Michael Jordan's career at UNC from 1981-1984 paralleled the spread of the three point shot in college basketball and in 1981 the ACC three point stripe was only 17-9 feet from the basket.

The three point basket was standardized across college basketball at 19-9 in 1986-7 and first used in the NCAA men's tournament that year--the same season the trey was adopted in women's basketballl at 19-9 also.

In 1987, high schools adopted the 19-9 stripe.

In 1995, the NBA tried to spike up scoring by moving its 23-9 stripe in to 22 feet.

In 1998 the NBA moved the three point stripe back to 23-9.

In 2007 the NCAA men's stripe was moved out to 20-9.

I have recalled the time line above to show how herky jerky and uncoordinated the adoption of the rule and evolution of the rule has been. The lack of continuity and standardization of the rule early on seems to have set in motion a diluted and delayed recognition of its potential for changing the game.

Just because some one was a good three point shooter in high school did not guaranty they would be in college. And being a good trey shooter in college did not mean they would be in the pros.

As a result, for a long time, the three point shot's potential was explored mostly by coaches at programs that could not field rosters of players that could use athleticism to "get to the rim" and to jump shoot over others in the mid range.

Also, the tendency of shooters to vary widely in their accuracy game to game discouraged coaches from relying on the basic mathematical advantage of 3>2, because every so often, on a cold shooting night, cold shooting would nullify 3>2.

But the biggest discouragement of the there point shot came in the 1990s, when muscle ball spread from the NBA to the NCAA. Muscle ball eroded the timed offense. It eroded trying to avoid contact when defending in order to keep from getting fouled up. What it encouraged was physical disruption of running routes, of making timed screens and timed passes to achieve open shots. All shots began to be contested, even violently, if necessary,. Unable to run motion offenses and timing offenses effectively, offense began to be played as physically as defense.Charging and backing down, and muscling to the rim became the higher percentage plays, if you had the prison bodies to play that way.

But after the fiasco of the 2000 season when the NCAA finals became a tooth rattling scrum of poor shooting teams involving prison bodies from MSU and UW, the NCAA set out to try to clean up the flagrant physical contact for a few years. Driving athleticism and kick outs to three point shooters had a renaissance till the latter part of the Naught Decade, when a skill and muscle restoration occurred. More rules changes stymied the muscle restoration, but something interesting occurred before the muscle restoration was stopped. Teams began to try to both muscle inside and kick and shoot outside.When the rules shut down the muscle restoration, college basketball coaches began to notice that: a.) the NBA was relying more and more on the three point shot; and the new college rules made driving ball seeking the short trey was feasible. Teams relied on some of both. More rules changes ended drive ball, when referees began not calling the fouls n necessary for the short trey. That left the trey.

My point is that 3>2 is a long term structural force incentivizing offense outside, especially when other rules changes discourage other paths of play.

The play you refer to by Golden State is annoying on one level, but it is simply sound offensive strategy.

ALWAYS try to attempt as many points as possible; that invariably leads to choosing treys over 2pts shooting.

All TPTB have to do is change the rules a little, and the path tendency of shooting treys instead of 2s will redirect.

The question is: why do TPTB think that the public prefers to see trifectation over athleticism.

It would, after all, be very easy to make a rule that any basket made inside of five feet from the basket gets 3 points also.

Or it would be easy to make any mid range jumper worth three.

Nothing is written except the rules.

And they can be and often are changed.

Rock Chalk!

Moore • Jun 13, 2018 09:55 PM

@Barney

Thanks for weighing in.

Yes, yes, and I think we laymen are only barely beginning to catch on to how the coaches are probably thinking about this and approaching it from a number of angles simultaneously.

Huggins is an exceptional defensive coach, same as Self.

They are predisposed to working with different kinds of players and so they probably take different strategic paths.

Coaches do not have the luxury we fans have of thinking ideally about what would work, or about what kind of players might be best.

Coaches from early on in their careers learn that there are certain kinds of players they can reliably sign year to year, and that among those there are certain kinds that they are most successful at working with to get them to improve and play the type of game the coach feels he can coach.

Each coach has to find out what he is good at and then learn how to be as flexible and adaptable within that range of "who he is" and "what he can sign" as possible. But Self just cannot become Huggins, or vice versa. They can borrow certain things, but they cannot in most cases simply copy the entire program, because they cannot sign those kinds of players, nor coach in that particular kind of way.

But nevertheless, all the good ones are all skilled and smart enough to massage the strategies on both ends of the floors to try to get to a net benefit in scored points vs. allowed points.

Huggy, Izzo, Bo Ryan, Ben Howland, long ago apparently inferred that basketball could be played at a level of contact that was so frequent that referees simply would not call all of the fouls. From that moment, the game has gotten more and more physical, despite brief respites when fouling thresholds were lowered and more fouls were called to try to deincentivize fouling everywhere all the time.

Huggins defense is one way to hold down total points attempted and accuracy. By stretching full court, it enables more opportunities to foul in transition, where refs anecdotally seem less likely to call the fouls of a certain kind, and then all of the hubbub in transition makes the refs anecdotally seem less likely to call all the fouls in half court. To call fouls and to try to control a game with foul calling, referees have to have a feel for the flow of the game. When WVU presses it is not only disrupting the other team, but the referees, too. it can backfire on WVU, as it did one game against KU where the referees appeared to feel they were tired of being had by Huggins and so simply called a ton of fouls on WVU and none on KU.

Self's M2M that funnels the ball to help in middle is another approach. KU fouls a lot once the ball gets into the middle. Sometimes they get away with it and other times not. It depends on the arena and the opponent.

Neither Huggins' defense nor Self's defense is very good at forcing the shooters out of the 20-25 foot strip of the 3 point shooting area. Both are more attuned to disruption of the flow of the offense throughout the half court area, especially the first initiation pass. They are good at keeping the ball out of certain hands and delivering help quickly and unexpectedly.

Jay Wright's break through IMHO was to dust off Jud Heathcote's old 1-3-1 matchup zone that Heathcote used when Magic Johnson was there. If you are tall at PG and one wing and have two bigs, the 1-3-1 matchup is a great zone that can really stretch and shut down open looks from outside or inside on ball side. Jay seemed to take the concept and mask it by playing several zones in match up fashion and this enabled him to push the the opponents three point shooters farther out consistently, and then rely on his two bigs inside whenever they could sucker teams to escape the pressure by moving into mid range 2 pt areas of the floor. This ability to shut off high percentage three point shots and challenge and deny the inside, hamstrung opponents into contested 2pt shots that worked to magnify Nova's great three point shooting and Jay's insight that Nova should always try to shoot 5-10 more treys than the opponent could get off.

I suspect we will see quite a bit of advancement in blending defenses schemed to deny the trey, and offenses schemed to generate open look treys on the other end.

So: even though I like to bust Jay's chops, I think the game owes him and whoever got those six trey ballers, including two post trey ballers, a debt of gratitude for showing another way to skin the basketball cat.

Lulufulu said:

@jaybate-1.0 Alright man, point taken very acutely. It does seem odd considering Self's success with trey ballers over the years.
Im still not willing to cry foul though. Not yet. Lets see what happens next season with recruiting and this coming season with all the guys we have right now. Im betting that we will have some guys break out in the post and in the back court that can shoot the 3 ball very well from deep.

Basically, lets just wait and see. Wait and see and gather some more info.


It seems maybe a little more than odd.

It maybe appears somewhat absurd.

I mean the guy is in the HOF and KU is one of the legendary basketball programs and Self has been playing 4-1 and hoisting a lot of treys for a couple years now, right? Common sense suggests he ought at least to be able to sign some 75-100 rank trey ballers like those guys on Nova last season, right?

But I am for sure NOT crying foul.

And I reject claims of conspiracy in D1 out of hand.

When I go to a carnival booth, I don't cry foul, or claim conspiracy, or try to mischaracterize others by saying they are asserting conspiracy in operation of the carnival booth, or the carnival.

Conspiracy and crying foul appears to be for suckers in D1, unless the authorities say its so.

When I go to a 1-arm bandit, or a roulette table, where odds are apparently asymmetrically in the house's favor, I do not cry foul, or allege conspiracy. It would be goofy.

Why would anyone cry foul, or conspiracy, about D1, or Self's recruiting?

There appears to be some asymmetry of some kind, that's all I can anecdotally observe. Its hardly proof of anything. Its an appearance; that's all.

Who knows?

Maybe the appearance of asymmetry is somehow crucial to the entertainment aspects of the college basketball industry?

I don't know. I am just a layman fan.

I just love the greatest game ever invented.

I have no idea if someone like you should, or shouldn't, cry foul. I just don't know. I believe aliases should not mischaracterize other aliases as believing in conspiracies, especially when an alias asserts repeatedly that conspiracy in college basketball appears to be for suckers.

I just know I am not crying foul, nor intending to suggest any conspiracy in this instance.

I am leaving identification of fouls and conspiracies to the authorities and except for the reputed investigation of college basketball by FBI/DOJ, I have NO reason to suspect any fouls or conspiracies, or anything thing else improper to be going on beyond what the authorities and/or experts find and have found in in the past.

It just appears to me like KU and Self are not able to sign certain kinds of players that my horse sense suggests they should be able to sign.

But, hey, I'm a layman and a fan, so what appears feasible to my horse sense, may not in fact be so.

Rock Chalk!

BShark said:

Ah yes, poor Bill Self couldn't get the players he wanted.

Now you are starting to get woke!

Howling!

JayHawkFanToo said:

KU had two of the best 3-point shooters ever in HS in Greene and Frankamp...how did it work out for KU? I will take a top 20 guard over a sub 75-100 3-point shooter. Chances are you have a better chance improving the shooting of an already elite athlete easier than improving the overall game of a sub 75-100 player.


I will take NOVA's apparently under ranked players last season; i.e., the guys ranked 75-100 that blew 1-75 ranked players out of the gyms all season.

Howling!

Those 75-100 ranked players appeared better than any 1-75 ranked players I have seen the last 5 years at least. I want 75-100 ranked players after last season, because in this ranking system, they appear to be the best players. They can lock down 1-75 ranked players and outshoot them to a ring. Darned impressivo, eh? These 75-100 ranked guys are the absolute best IMHO. I don't know why ANYONE wastes time recruiting 1-75 guys above 75-100 guys.

Howling!

That Nova team appeared like it could have destroyed ANY of the recent 9-10 stacks of UK and Duke. They appeared able to have handily destroyed UK's 2012 team that was only six deep in OADs and with nothing else. NOT. EVEN. CLOSE.

75-100 rank players that can blow 1-75 rank players out of the gym are dead nuts on the best players in college basketball judging by appearances.

Howling!

1-75 rank players? We don't need no stinking 1-75 rank players.