@Crimsonorblue22 Yeah, just saw that on that other site. Not surprised. A Bill Self team is not complete without at least one guy playing through an injury.
joeloveshawks
853 posts
@nuleafjhawk Agreed. Neither guy is ready but who knows. Last years draft was really deep...deeper than this year but look at some of the guys who were drafted after the lottery that were far superior college players than Alexander or Oubre. James Young, Gary Harris, Shabazz Napier, Rodney Hood, Cleanthony Early, etc. These guys were all studs last year and still did not make it into the lottery. Most of these guys were not OAD but I think it makes a point. Even if you are a huge asset to your team it does not mean that you will go in the lottery. Would Cliff or Oubre be making the right decision to go this year if they are not for sure lottery picks? It certainly worked out well for T Rob, BMac, Morris Twins and Cole to leave when they were 100% going to be lottery picks. At this point I feel both guys could use another year of college ball to help get that guaranteed contract. That is honestly not me speaking as a KU fan it is just my feeling on the matter. Unless there is a drastic change during conference play I don't see either guy being a lock as a top 14 pick in next years draft.
@KUinLA Right, UCONN didn't do anything in March last year after they got blown out by 30 against Louisville...or did they go on to win the National Championship?
@konkeyDong Exactly. You could even expand on this list if you wanted to. Also, this is not a Bill Self issue or a KU issue. Duke, Arizona, Cuse, UNC and all of the big boys (maybe not UK the last few years) have at least one game where they fall asleep and get embarrassed. It is just part of the long season that is college ball. The TCU game was FAR worse than this and that was a superior and far more senior KU squad. Don't lose faith!!
I am glad to see that for the most part the posts on kubuckets are pretty reasonable. We are all of course disappointed and a bit concerned as you should not lose to an unranked team by 25 if you are KU. But hey, it happens. Unfortunately I read a number of posts on kusports and the negativity was incredible. "Season is over". "May not make the tournament". "No help on the way for next season either". What is wrong with people? We got beat and it was awful and terrible but now we aren't going to make the tournament? Give me a break. This may not be the 2008 team but we are going to be fine...exposed or not.
@DanR "Playing like dunking the ball is illegal" may be my favorite quote ever on this site. So well said. He looks afraid to score the ball especially scared to slam the ball!
I am probably boring this site with my anti Lucas comments but I truly don't get it. Cliff, Perry, Jamari and now Mickelson all appear to be playing at a totally different level that Landen. It would be great if Landen could grow into a solid player by next year or his senior year but for now I think he should only be in the game if there is serious foul trouble...yet he is starting games. Can anyone remember a starter who played fewer minutes?
@VailHawk Does #1 also include a KU title? I could care less who loses to who and when they lose as long as KU wins it all. If we beat an undefeated UK team or a surprise 8 seed I could care less.
@icthawkfan316 Absolutely. I should have included that!
@HighEliteMajor Exactly. Now that I had my wish of starting Alexander granted I will now move all of my wishes over to the PG spot. That wish is that Manning never sees the floor. When you have Svi and Selden who are future NBA guards as options for taking the ball up the floor when Mason is out it is a no brainer. PG is the very last position on the court where you can afford to have a walk on. I don't buy the "coaches son" or "he's looked great in practice" stuff. Remember what UNC looked like without a PG in 2012? No way we beat that team if they are fully stacked. Roy should have probably just played Harrison Barnes at PG and gambled with that. Instead they played their Evan Manning type and came up short.
God I love that we always beat Roy's UNC teams. What a win for us even with their starting PG out.
@drgnslayr I love your post. Great reading. But Duke has 9 McD's All Americans as well. Aren't they part of the problem...just as much as UK? I tend to hate both programs equally for the most part. Coach Cal is really the only thing that makes me hate UK more.
@wrwlumpy Finally. Now I can quit annoying everyone by posting daily that Alexander should start. Hopefully it makes an instant impact.
@REHawk Good point but I don't think winning the opening tip should trump having a better player in the lineup.
@REHawk I really hate Lucas starting. My #1 reason is I want Cliff to get a ton of minutes. I know that he may be foul prone but the only way he is going to be the monster we know he can be is if he is on the floor. Cliff and Perry should start with Jamari being the first big off the bench. Lucas should then be after Jamari. He is big and tall and plays hard but there is a big drop off in talent. Get Cliff in the starting lineup now. (Sorry, I know I have posted this after every game all year).
@jaybate-1.0 I love TRob. Top 5 player all time for me at KU. But more athletic than Dennis Rodman? No, this is not the case. Phil Jackson once said that Rodman was the most athletic player that he ever coached. He coached a few good athletes in his day including MJ and Pippen so that comment says something. Rodman was also the greatest rebounder in NBA history. Again, I love TRob but lets allow him to have another 15 and 15 game before we start getting too carried away.
@approxinfinity To the founder of the feast! Thank you and Happy Holidays. KUBUCKETS has been a great escape for me from the daily grind and I love reading all of the comments from the amazing basketball minds on this site. Thanks for putting it together.
Rock Chalk Jayhawk.
@BeddieKU23 100% agree. Manning is not an option. Selden or Svi can bring the ball up the court for the 6-8 minutes a game that Frank is on the bench. I think Graham being out really really hurts us but putting Manning into the game hurts us more. Let the other guards pick up the slack. If Selden and Svi are going to be NBA guards they can bring the ball up the floor a few times during college games.
@drgnslayr Absolutely. Frank is better now than TT was as a sophomore. No question. I hope that Frank stays around for 4 years like TT and that we can all talk about how great he was as a senior. TT's senior year was a really great performance and when I think back on his career I will always think about how he helped up get to the National Title with a team that was very short handed. To me it made up for 3 years of him passing the ball into the stands.
@JayHawkFanToo I was excited to read this post but then I realized it was not about next years basketball starters.
@JayhawkRock78 I agree with all of your points except the "KU is young" argument. I know we occasionally say that Bill Self's system is very complex and difficult to learn right away but I just don't see why other teams have a lot of success with freshman and sophomores. UK is a machine this year and play freshman and sophomores. Duke looks better than they have in years and their best player is a freshman and just put up 20 and 20. Hell, even KU last year was "young" but our best two players were freshman and put up big numbers. Beasley, Durant, Melo, D. Rose...the list goes on of teams that have relied heavily on star freshman and done just fine. I don't think it is an age thing. Cliff and Kelly came in just as highly acclaimed as Stanley Johnson and Okafor, etc. and are simply not having the same kind of year. Maybe they will eventually but I don't blame their age and I also don't blame the system. I just think some kids are not as NCAA ready as they were assumed to be.
Totally agree that we are too small and will likely lose at ISU and UT. Also agree that the Big 12 will beat up on each other and that KU will be right there at the end of the year for another chance at at Big 12 title.
@justanotherfan Agreed. Our best players are on the perimeter and 3's are the answer to beating the big boys. Greene, Svi, Selden, Mason, Oubre...all of these guys can shoot and should be the focus.
That said we have to have the big guys play better. Currently Perry is playing great basketball but he would be even better if the guy playing next to him was an offensive threat. Jamari played a great game against Utah but I don't think he is a consistent scorer. He is on some nights and off the next. He has actually been off most of the year as we all know.
To me this team has to play through Perry and Cliff to get the best looks for 3. Cliff needs to get minutes. Big minutes. Lucas is slow and does not pose a threat on offense and is not a good enough defender to make up for his lack of offense. I like Lucas and he is a nice kid and a good player but I can't believe he starts. He should be behind both Cliff and Jamari off the bench.
Also on the Graham situation...did anyone else read this comment by Self?
Self said walk-on Evan Manning could be used at the point to go with Wayne Selden Jr. and even forward Jamari Traylor in some situations.
“I meant to play him today,” Self said of Manning. “But when we’re playing well, don’t sub; playing badly you can’t put him in that situation. We’ve got to have a ball-mover back there.”
Does that scare the shit out of anyone else? Is this a serious comment by Self or is it just some sort of way to motivate the guys who are actually going to take Graham's minutes?
@Hawk8086 Graham being out for at least a month and possibly the entire year is pretty devastating. I know we have guys who can fill in for Mason but Graham is the only true PG other than Frank. This was my main concern when CF decided to transfer. He was a good backup plan in case of injuries if nothing else.
10 days ago I would have said that Svi could step in and play a bit of emergency PG along with Selden but obviously something is up with Svi the last couple of games. Perhaps he has hit "the wall" that is often discussed.
Luckily with Graham out we do have a lot of options on the perimeter. Between Selden, Oubre, Greene and Svi there are plenty of guys to play and see what fits.
Stating the obvious...great 1st half. Atrocious 2nd half. Not sure who is the real KU. Probably somewhere in between.
Positive things were Oubre looked better for the second game in a row. B Greene continues to be incredible from the line...did those free throws even touch the net? Selden was shooting well in the 1st. Perry looked dominant early.
Plenty of negatives. What is the deal with shooting 20% as a team in an entire half of basketball? How does that happen? Utah is not fing Kentucky. I honestly don't get it. Many of the shots we missed were wide open or at least poorly contested. Did we build too big of a lead? Svi was sort of a no show. Lucas was terrible. Alexander not much better. Who should start at the 5? The options are not looking that good after a game like today.
But I agree that a win is a win. Better to blow a 21 point lead and win than the potential other outcome.
RCJH
@BeddieKU23 I agree. Greene is going to be ahead of Oubre unless Oubre improves a great deal between now and January. KO's "coming out party" as I have heard it described was a 1-5 from the field effort with 7 points. He got burned on D multiple times and still looks lost in general. How is this guy in front of the other guy who just hit 5 3's in one game and is yet to miss a free throw all year?
@JayHawkFanToo This is a game where I would like to see KU play some zone. I know Bill typically only plays zone or some form of trash D box and 1 when we are down in March (UNC 2012) but I wish we did it more. Seems like a good team to play zone against. They are huge inside and can't shoot. Not sure why we wouldn't play a bit of zone to keep Cliff and Landen out of foul trouble with Jamari out of the game and Perry being horribly undersized to guard Smith. Also not sure why I am wasting my time typing this as Bill Self does not play zone.
This is not a big deal. Mari made a bad decision and is being punished by sitting out a big game and that is fair. I know we hold the KU roster to a very high standard but at the end of the day these are kids. I wish I could take back about 100 bad decisions I made after 2 a.m. when I was in school in Lawrence, Kansas.
@HighEliteMajor Very interesting stats. Typically I think that Jeff Goodman is a buffoon but these are good stats to see.
My question when looking at these minutes and points is...do we think too highly of a kid who is ranked top 10 coming out of high school? What about top 20 or top 30? We tend to think that a top 10 kid is going to come in a dominate early or at least play huge minutes and have an impact. Is there really that big of a difference between the #10 player in high school and the #25? EJ was the #24 recruit in the country and I certainly don't remember worrying this much about him waiting 2 years to play. The Morris Twins were top 30. T Rob was top 30. Hell, Jeff Withey was top 40 and it took him a very long time and multiple schools to figure it all out. All of these guys sat the bench for years and developed. Are we simply unwilling as fans to wait for Oubre to develop because he was not supposed to need developing? He was supposed to be NCAA ready from day one. I admit that his ranking has blurred my vision but it has also reminded me that these high school rankings are not a perfect science. They are helpful but the #10 guy is sometimes Kelly Oubre and the #120 guy is sometimes Trey Burke. You have to be patient with both.
@jaybate-1.0 Not sure on Hunter or what he will do. I feel bad but he obviously knew he was coming to "Big Man U" when he transferred and that playing time was not going to be free.
I can't imagine Greene transfers. Am I the only person who day dreams about Greene as a 4 year player who goes down as one of KU's most prolific 3 point shooters?!?! I know that the perimeter is loaded but he and Svi are the only 2 in the bunch who can really shoot.
I love that Svi is already the Roy Hobbs of KU practices. "Doesn't miss". "Automatic." "I assume everything is going in." "Didn't miss in warmup." If this can somehow translate into games...let's say in mid March, that would be a thing of beauty.
@drgnslayr I think you have to start your best players and so far this year Svi is one of our best players and certainly the best option to start at the 3 spot. Oubre is obviously really struggling. Greene is a fantastic shooter but still a one dimensional player. Svi is a better defender, passer and ball handler than the the other options. He should start. As should Cliff. I know that Bill says that Lucas is good at starting as it gives Cliff the opportunity to come into the game with less anxiety and less chance of picking up early fouls but let's be honest...that is temporary. He is going to be in the starting 5 very soon.
@KUSTEVE I'd say more like the 2012 team that 2007. 2012 was really shallow, though. This team at the moment is going 10 deep and will probably play at least 9 deep most of the year in my opinion.
I did not think about Selden being a Releford type but now that you say that it makes sense. If Selden can play the type of D Releford did and hit 3's when needed that would be a really amazing type of player to have.
That brings me to my #1 question about this team. Who is Selden? Is he a 2014 version of Releford in that he is our best perimeter defender and a hustle player and a guy who may put up 20 one game and 4 the next? His lack of shooting so far is an issue to me. I know he changed his shot around a bit so I hope it is just a matter of time. I kind of thought he would be our leading scorer this year but that is not looking like his primary role. Ellis is going to be the man and that is fine but I would like to see Selden do a bit more scoring. He rebounds and plays great D so it is hard to argue too much with that. But who is he really this year?
This is a troubling situation. I actually had a nightmare that Oubre transferred so obviously it is deep in my mind.
I don't have any idea what will happen. It will just have to play out. There will be injuries, there will be classroom issues, there will be guys who simply raise their play and guys who go into a funk. It is a long season and Oubre will be a part of it but it is hard to know if his role will be big or small.
I don't see Greene getting less minutes no matter what. He is unique on this team. He can shoot. Svi can supposedly shoot but we have not seen that yet in games. Obviously he has a pure stroke but he misses a lot of shots. This team needs Greene to stretch the D.
@Hawk8086 So true. It sticks out just as much as the other meltdowns we have had in March. It probably didn't hurt that we were all still in shock from losing the year before with the best team KU has ever had.
Just thinking about that makes me nervous about March already.
@JayHawkFanToo Julian (now playing in Europe) was a top 10 recruit. I think Chalmers and Rush were both top 15 as was Arthur. Sherron was top 20. That group of guys was so stacked and the fact that all of that talent hung around (I know Julian left after 2007) was amazing and will probably never be duplicated in the OAD era by KU or any other college team.
@HighEliteMajor Interesting to consider for sure but I think Selden is a guy that we have to have playing huge minutes. Even if he is not playing the best right now he is a guy this team needs to be playing well late. The only way he plays well in March is if he is getting minutes all year and he will. You can just tell that Bill loves him. He started every game as a freshman. I like Mason at the PG still. The Graham sample size is still too small.
As far as the other best perimeter lineup I think you have to have Greene in there after last night. He is the only dead eye shooter on our entire team. Svi has flashes of a beautiful shot but I don't think he is as good from deep as Greene. I love seeing Svi out there, though. I did not see his skills being this advanced this early in any way. What a nice surprise. Thankfully he can't pull a Jo Jo and leave us after his one year of surprisingly good results.
@jaybate-1.0 Very funny post. Most I have ever laughed on this board.
Just watched the game this morning. Love what I see from Greene. I know that it is pretty easy to shoot 3's against a Rider than a UK but I still love it. Let the guy get some confidence. Confidence can be a wonderful thing.
Selden not scoring is odd but I guess he realized early that this was a blowout? Not sure. I'm not worried about Mason. At all. He is a PG and has good handles, plays hard, is very athletic. I would not mind at all if he averages 6-7 points a game as long as he plays tough and has a good assist to TO ratio. If him and Graham can both have similar numbers scoring and A/TO then we are in good shape. Selden showed he can pass in the half court but not sure he is an answer against serious pressure.
Cliff is a beast and should start. Landen looked very good but they are not in the same league. Maybe Cliff was the "late to tutoring" and if so fine that he comes off the bench but if he starts showing up to school lessons on time he should start...now. So should Svi. He looked great in the starting lineup. Mason, Selden, Svi, Perry, Cliff. Said it before but I think that is your 5. Greene off the bench bombing 3's would be a lovely thing to see off the bench.
All that said, agree with HEM that this Rider team is awful and there is not a lot to take from this game but as always I will take a win and it is good for our guys to see the ball go through the net repeatedly.
According to KU's Facebook page the starters are Mason, Selden, Svi, Perry and Lucas. Did not see that last one coming.
@REHawk I like the bold prediction and the outside of the box thinking. I doubt it will happen, though. If it does I will somehow have to figure out how to buy you a beer as you will deserve it for making such a ballsy proposal. Frank and Devonte are far closer to the Bill Self PG mold. Highly doubt that Bill shuffles things around much. He is Bill Self. Undoubtedly one of the great coaches of the last 20 years in the NCAA but very stubborn and only plays his way.
I think it is more realistic to have Svi start at the 2 with Selden at the 3. Those spots can be pretty much the same so not sure it matters who is playing what. I would like to see a starting rotation of Frank, Selden, Svi, Cliff and Perry with Jamari and Greene and Oubre off the bench quickly for some energy and some shooting.
@joeloveshawks Well, now I see that Taylor is out 4-6 weeks. Perhaps my post was a bit too early.
I am honestly pretty scared of Texas. The team they have this year sort of reminds me of some of the great KU squads we have had in the past. A lot of highly touted high school players who had to stick around as they were not ready for the NBA right away but now they are maturing and all at the right time. They are big, they can shoot, they play very good defensed. Did anyone else see them destroy a good Cal team? This was without their best player as well. Turner looks pretty good as we all knew he would.
Ok, so maybe I should not have said "scared" but they are really good. Better than KU at this point of the year and unlike the last few years they match us for talent. Holmes is killing people, Ridley is a beast. They are going to make a KU run for another Big 12 title very very difficult.
@ralster The Oubre situation is interesting. I am not sure if I believe the "he had to start him to help get future OAD's" argument. Possibly it is just a situation where Oubre has the highest ceiling of any of the guys who could have started...Graham, Greene and Svi being the other guys. Oubre is a top 10 talent and I really hope that he plays to that level by the end of the year. The only way he will be able to do that is if he gets plenty of minutes. I don't mind him starting as long as Svi and Greene still get their minutes. That may be tough but we HAVE to have a guy like Svi or Greene getting minutes. Tall guys who can shoot. They need to be in the game. Could Svi / Greene / Oubre split about 13 minutes a person per game? Maybe they could be a "platoon" at the 3 spot. Although if I hear the word platoon used again I may jump out of a window.
@ralster Good point about playing a "normal height college team". Since the UK game I have gone from disbelief, to denial, to acceptance and now somehow magically back to optimism regarding our season. Ralster pointing out the height situation only helps my positive thoughts. We will not see another team like UK again this year...maybe ever again in college ball. NBA teams don't have this kind of height. So, I am sitting here today hoping that against the "normal height teams" perhaps Frank can drive to the hoop, maybe Perry won't look incredibly soft, possibly Selden will show us that he is a lottery pick talent, and we may even kick out to an open 3 point shooter...maybe even Greene! Swish!
@Lulufulu I think the great thing is if Selden and Oubre play to their capability and are actually looking like lottery picks we are in great shape. If they leave and play to the level of B Rush and B Mac then fine because we will probably be in the Final 4 this year. I won't hold my breath for this to happen. Not being negative but I just don't see it. Rush and B Mac were pretty amazing out of the gate.
Fun to read but I think almost everyone is back next year which means we don't really have room for many recruits. Obviously it is possible that Oubre, Alexander and Selden flirt with the draft but at this point (incredibly early) I don't see it happening. The draft boards at this point are a joke.
Svi is here to stay.
Greene is here to stay. Not sure why I think that but I do. Even though his playing time sucks. Perhaps it is just because I REALLY want him to stay. I don't care if he can't play defense or shoot. A 6'8 shooter should have room on any team. Remember Heslip? He can't play defense or pass and killed us yearly and is now having a great run in the D league. I wish Greene could stay on just to bomb 3's if he never turns into anything else.
Yesterday I posted that I am beyond mad that we did not shoot enough 3's and that we need to shoot more from deep this year as we don't have that much size. Obviously almost everyone on this board agrees. But after another night of thinking about this game I am wondering...who is going to take all of these 3's? Brannen Green barely sees the floor. AW3 and CF are no longer on the team. Who are our great shooters that see minutes? Selden has changed his shot and does not look incredibly confident. Svi has a great looking stroke but the shots are not going through the net. Oubre has a pretty good looking stroke as well but appears streaky and I have no idea what his minutes are going to be like...4 total minutes one game, starting the next game. Mason and Graham are both not pure shooters. I guess what I am saying is I would love love love to see more 3's but I am not sure we are a very good shooting team now that the best 3 shooters we have recruited in years are either on the bench or transferred away.
@HighEliteMajor Good points, HEM. The points I am the most concerned about are #6 and #10. Self says we are going to shoot a lot of 3's this year and we are all skeptical. Now I am very skeptical. If there is any team in the country that KU should bomb 3's on it is Kentucky. We obviously can't beat them down low so why not at least try to beat them from deep? I about lost my voice yelling for us to take 3's but we repeatedly drove the ball into the lane where 3 guys who are 6'11 are waiting to swat our shit. I did not understand it then and I won't understand the entire season if we don't shoot more 3's.
3's. Something Greene is good at shooting. Why is he not in the game? Why is he not in the game for like 15-20 minutes? Again, I am baffled.
@globaljaybird I love your very last point. All that anyone on this board really cares about is how the season ends...in March...or preferably April. UCONN and UK from last year are prime examples of this. Do you think either programs fan base last year went into March Madness thinking "what a year"? Absolutely not. But both teams got hot at the right time and made runs to the title game. I don't really care if we lose 10 games during the season if we go to the Final 4. It is irrelevant. I know it is quite a bit easier to get to the Final 4 if we have a great year but again, last year is an example that it is not 100% necessary. Let's be honest. After watching the first two games of the regular season it is pretty easy to tell that this KU team is not going to just have a couple of losses. They are going to have 5-10 and they are going to have to pull a UCONN and peak in March.
I am really pumped for this game (goes without saying). I just hope I can keep it a bit more under control than I did for last years Champions Classic. I unfortunately overserved myself during the UK vs. MSU game and the end of the KU victory was extremely blurry. I think I was just excited as the tickets a friend gave me for the game ended up being on the floor!
This year from the couch I am hoping to drink less and remember more of the 2nd straight KU Champions Classic victory. Although it is easier said than done as just thinking about how much I loathe Coach Cal makes me need a drink.
My predictions in brief. KU 82-75. Selden and Ellis both put up 18 but our team defense is the story as the Harrison twins both have off nights caused by traps and incredibly scrappy KU defense!!
Here is a link to the Top 50 Wooden Watch.
4 guys from KU including 2 freshman that are not currently in our starting lineup. I am certainly not saying that both Oubre and Alexander (we have already seen glimpses of him being a stud) won't produce this year, but are they really going to be Wooden Award candidates late in the year? Highly doubtful. Way too many freshman on this list.