Ah how I love the presumed OAD drama. Lovely, isn’t it?
HighEliteMajor
5416 posts
@BShark You know why Hyland hasn’t committed anywhere yet? Not like a guy in the 70s to wait.
@KirkIsMyHinrich Right .. but I was also thinking that the substance of what he announces may not be important. It’s that more people watch than normal.
But going to Australia is bigger news and a bigger discussion. Going to KU probably isn’t beyond a blip that day.
Going to Australia let’s the talking heads talk more.
@FarmerJayhawk You have done what many do when looking at material such as this. You have cited a section that is not intended to be used for eligibility, but a definitional section. It is a section to be used to define the an agent for NCAA purposes. This has nothing directly to do with whether the player would be ineligible. That is, whether the defined "agent" is acting on his behalf.
If you go further under that same section, it defines "family members." too -- 12.02.4 Family Member.A family member is an individual with any of the following relationships to the prospective student-athlete: spouse, parent or legal guardian, child, sibling, grandparent, domestic partner or any individual whose close association with the prospective student-athlete is the practical equivalent of a family relationship.
Like the agent, it’s just a definition.
But the definition of an agent goes to my point -- it states that an agent is any individual who, directly or indirectly, represents .. an individual .." So in this scenario, the only way on can do that is with authority. You can't represent someone without some type of authority to do so.
I suspect you are extrapolating the "attempts to represent" as opposed to "represents" as applying to his dad, meaning if his dad attempts to represent him, then he's an agent. Again, your citation for this purpose is not applicable.
If this is what you are doing, it is silly to suggest that RJ's consent or knowledge isn't need. Absurdity is sometimes demonstrated by absurdity. With that in mind, I could make RJ ineligible by trying to market and sell his services to the highest bidder. That would be without his authority. That is obviously not going to make him ineligible.
BShark said:
Hoiberg posted a tweet with RockChalk in it (his daughter graduated from KU). Iowa State twitter took it really well, as you would expect.
I assume mayoral impeachment proceedings are being drawn up as we speak ...
@FarmerJayhawk My view on this -
The key here is the same as it was in the Cam Newton deal. Does RJ have a verbal or written contract for his dad to act on his behalf? The fact that there was (allegedly) no verbal or written contract to act on Cam's behalf, the NCAA set aside the suspension.
For example, if RJ's mom is out there trying to "sell" RJ's services, it's irrelevant unless his mom has RJ's authority (for this discussion, RJ is an adult).
In this situation, the only way he goes awry of NCAA rules is if there is a written contact with the pro team (of which RJ would need to sign, or his dad could sign if there was POA as @Texas-Hawk-10 mentioned), if RJ acknowledged that he had an oral agreement of agency with his dad (or a logic would dictate when defending your eligibilty, he didn't deny it), or if he actually participated in the pro league.
So under your scenario, if RJ's dad did "call up the pro Australian league (and) agree to a deal", RJ's amateurism is not over unless one of the examples above is met.
There are principles under the law of "actual authority" and "apparent authority." Actual authority is where the consent to the agency relationship is given, oral or written. The parent acting for the child, in this situation where the child is an adult, would be one of "apparent authority" if there is no actual authority, which we presuming -- the adult has done so in the past (acted on the child's behalf), others can reasonably rely on it, there is no denial of authority by the child, etc.
@Texas-Hawk-10 You can give oral authority for one to act on your behalf. The difference in most every situation is proof. The reason you have a written document is proof. So if RJ made it known, or didn't deny, his dad acting on his behalf, that would do it. One example under the law where a written agreement is required by the law is the transfer of real property.
justanotherfan said:
Saying you won't recruit over guys is impossible. Saying that you won't recruit over a certain level is impossible. KU recruits the top players because KU is a top school that can recruit the top players. If KU avoids recruiting those players, they risk missing out on more than just OADs.
I actually just saw this. The point made contrary to this is promising a kid that you won’t recruit over him with a presumed OAD. It’s not that you won’t recruit over him. It’s just that you won’t bring in the one year (alleged) wonder like Wiggins to send him to the bench — the presumed OAD.
As is, recruits see a so-so player like Grimes PROMISED a starting spot. And a reasonable wonder is, will that happen to them their junior or senior season? Well it won’t outside of about 8-10 programs that get these drama queens. So that makes a program like KU less attractive.
Again, non-presumed OADs? Sure. But not presumed OAD that requires promises, as they all generally do.
That is the approach that would be key and helpful to landing more kids in the range discussed. If they knew that they would be able to compete and not face a guy PROMISED a starting spot, that would make KU much more attractive.
@FarmerJayhawk Great point on the control parents have over minors .. but in this case, RJ is an adult. He’s 18. So he’s the boss to the extent he insists on making his own decisions.
Nothing is for sure. Still time for bags of cash to suddenly appear.
Marco said:
KirkIsMyHinrich said:
De Sousa = Thomas Robinson
De Sousa is a beast down low, no doubt, but he seems to be able to step out a bit, too. T-Rob couldn't do that, almost all dunk. I think De Sousa has a much higher ceiling.
TRob was one of the greatest players in KU history. First team AA. Big 12 POY. And he did “step out” and hit shots with some frequency. He was not even close to “almost all dunks.” He was a rebounding machine. Higher ceiling than the #5 pick in the draft? SDS has quite a ways to go to be in the same sentence. But I do like the optimism there.
Self likes two PG types on the floor together of course. Could be playing fast. Doke and SDS can get up and down the court.
@Marco We won’t. He’ll be a junior. His suspension was not lifted for the past season, so he can’t count it as a redshirt season.
@FarmerJayhawk Good point on the 3 pt line. In theory, post scoring becomes a bit more important. The hi/lo is still the best offensive set in CBB in my opinion. Terrific for kick out threes.
But let’s not shoot those 15-18 footers ... bad shot anyway, particularly if one is just “decent.” Now, that 13 foot baseline shot that Marcus and Simien has down? That’s the ticket.
@Marco @BeddieKU23 The initial clearing of a player is really irrelevant because (for lack of a better term) fraud was committed. Meaning, the player didn’t disclose his conduct. No one was told, and with that knowledge he would not have been cleared.
I think the issue becomes whether the NCAA wants to lower the boom. Seeing what happened to MU over the academic fraud issue ( when the fully cooperated) I’m not optimistic.
@Marco - I said the before last season. If we had SDS to start last season, I thought we had a decent chance to go undefeated. That assumed everyone healthy, contributing, etc. I think what we saw of our team early, with Vick being a huge factor, that was possible. Of course, undefeated is a high bar, but maybe a two or three loss season was entirely reasonable.
@FarmerJayhawk @jayballer73 @BShark That is all helpful. I do like Wilson's ability to shoot the ball as being in the mix for time at the three.
Question that I've been wondering about .. why is it that we assume that Wilson's going to come in here and start, or be an immediate contributor? And that Enaruna might redshirt? Enaruna is actually ranked a touch higher than Wilson with Rivals, and Enaruna is just about 10 spots below Wilson at 24/7. Both are listed as wings. The only difference I can discern is Wilson's shooting ability (though there are positive comments about Enaruna too). But from a quickness standpoint, guarding the 3, I'm not sure about that with either of them.
So, if someone knows, what PG is standing in RJ's way at Memphis? Dotson returning wouldn't be an issue? Just being pessimistic right now.
I suspect Memphis will be just fine and I'm pretty confident with that roster they'll be at least a 3 seed.
Marco said:
cragarhawk said:
Let's just hope it's not a situation where they say "oh yeah, sure. The kid can play. Oh and by the way here's your post season ban...."
How could they? They were wrong, and the review committee all but admitted as much.
@Marco Well, quite easily. The review made Silvio eligible for the 2019-20 season. It did not suggest the 2018-19 season should not have been a suspension.
To do so would have been to allow SDS to treat 2018-19 as a redshirt year. He lost that season eligibility. He’ll be a junior not a RS sophomore.
The appeal didn’t say the NCAA was wrong suspending him, it just reduced the suspension from two seasons to the one he served. He still got a suspension (one season).
So we played an otherwise ineligible player in 2017-18. @cragarhawk hit the nail on the head regarding the next concern ... and of course, us “winning” the appeal against the same folks determining our sanctions is less than appealing (pardon the pun).
If he bolts now, he has three years left vs two. He won’t play much this season if Doke and SDS are here. The 10-12 min deal is a good estimate.
Not being too skeptical here, but ESPN broadcasting and announcement to KU? My first thought was that this has the earmarks of a Memphis announcement, and ESPN slobbering all over Hardaway and his #1 recruiting class. The next UK b.s. We've had so much negativity, it's hard to turn to positivity. I'm trying.
Turning those words around, any chance Big Dave leaves?
If signing RJ and Wilson — or anyone —means that Agbaji won’t start, no thanks. We need to cultivate this potential star.
@FarmerJayhawk I’m putting $5 on TT at those odds (and splitting with RJ).
Can we forget the 4/1 now??
@BShark We really NEED either RJ or Grimes. Meaning we really need a perimeter player so Garrett isn’t starting.
Starters - Dotson, Grimes/RJ, Agbaji, SDS, Doke.
Bench - Garrett, McBride, Dave, Mitch
Mitch will be better than Enaruna.
Great news.
Now we should hope that RJ and Wilson aren’t a package deal. Wilson wouldn’t jump here now, would he?
When the jury comes back quickly, it's usually "guilty." But knowing our luck, they'll say he has to sit out 15 games next season.
@Gorilla72 I think you can only be eligible for selection once. You can declare for the draft twice, assuming you remove your name the first time as Dotson, Grimes, etc. are going through now. Someone else can chime in, but if you stay in the draft, and aren't drafted, you are a free agent and not subject to a further draft. That's what I understand.
@Gorilla72 Wouldn’t that just make the player a free agent?
One thing is nearly for sure ... we’ll be grumbling about Garrett’s shooting until he departs. But that grumbling depends on the cast around him. We barely complained in 2017-18 because he had a reasonable role. Starting, 25-30 minutes? That’s where heads explode.
Shooters please.
Grimes opting out, transferring -- perhaps a good decision for all if that's where his head is.
I'm sure all of this is all Bill Self's fault (in the mind of his "people").
Fightsongwriter said:
Predicting DD and Grimes will both be back and SDS cleared to play. Going with my gut and my heart!
When you leave "brain" out of your list of items consulted, well, you know ... but I'd be good with it regardless!
@BShark Texas or TT? I ask because RJ's dad was talking TT a bit.
Hmmm. This might entice Wilson to stay. Fab 5 still has some pull.
BeddieKU23 said:
HighEliteMajor said:
@BShark @BeddieKU23 And I favor playing the more talented player from the start. That's always been my belief. I just felt when we got to a certain point in the season, a different look for Grimes would have been worth trying, all with the goal of moving him back to the starting lineup. @BeddieKU23 See my comment a few posts on the "if not Grimes then who" thing .. my thought was more a disruption in the routine. Bench him for a bit, reduce minutes, 6th man, whatever .. see if that could jump start him.
I wonder if it was considered. It's worked in the past Self sending a message and trying to get motivation through PT or reduced role. Newman was a recent example. So that's a good point why it wasn't really explored. Maybe he thought it would potentially do more harm then good? Not having a fully checked in Vick probably made it difficult to justify as well. The last straw for Vick as I remember was being benched in the first half of a game. I wonder if Self thought that type of behavior would have spilled over to Grimes and he wanted to keep giving Grimes the perception of confidence by not benching him at points in the season where he wasn't performing.
I bet it was considered, and your theory on this is just as probable -- that Self self did consider it and maybe, related to this kid, didn't see it as the best approach.
@approxinfinity Can't think of a connection, other than the great state of Texas (Grimes and Barrett/Wilson).
@BShark @BeddieKU23 And I favor playing the more talented player from the start. That's always been my belief. I just felt when we got to a certain point in the season, a different look for Grimes would have been worth trying, all with the goal of moving him back to the starting lineup. @BeddieKU23 See my comment a few posts on the "if not Grimes then who" thing .. my thought was more a disruption in the routine. Bench him for a bit, reduce minutes, 6th man, whatever .. see if that could jump start him.
dylans said:
@BShark or had an option... start whom last year over Grimes? Garrett? Moore? KJ? Just the least bad option and better for future recruiting. How many times did we here about Kelly O. sitting on the bench early and just needing playing time to develop? Some prospects just don’t pan out the way you’d hoped. Grimes as a Jr would be nice, as a OAD not so nice.
Yes, yes, and yes on whom to start over Grimes -- my view was Grimes just needed a different perspective. Coming off the bench can provide that perspective, and some players really flourish in that role. Further, I think it does help to really humble a kid. Sit him, don't play him. Reduce minutes. A bit of a tear down to build back up. It reached a point with the Grimes where that strategy was begging, and could have .. not for sure, but could have helped him.
BeddieKU23 said:
rockchalkwyo said:
I think one of the problems is the high school ranking system. There’s probably 75 kids that can make it to the top 50, or at least have a solid argument on why they should. The ranking system is somewhat flawed and builds too much ego in these players, along side their parents, and get unrealistic expectations for how long they should stay in college by their ranking coming out of high school.
Definitely plays a part. If Grimes was the #100 ranked player coming to KU, starts all season with that stat line he's probably judged differently. When your a Top 10 player and come here and have that kind of season your going to take criticism.
But with that performance last season, to @BShark's point, it's a pretty sure bet he would not have started all last season -- there was something else going on.
jayballer73 said:
dylans said:
Just a paper top 10 guy. No one is scared of the Grimes we all saw.
you know that - - I know that - - RJ knows that lol
Well it's not "lol." The reality is that Bill Self started him every game. That should make a recruit take notice.
It's funny, in nearly the same breath, you state that we should take Bill Self's word as the gospel, then you mock Grimes' on court abilty -- and Bill Self started him every game.
jayballer73 said:
Marco said:
-I think Bill knows Jussssssssss a little more then you or I or anyone else on here - I think his 14 straight championships speak for themselves - his hall of fame induction pretty well speaks for its'self - -I think his National championship speaks for it'self - - I think his final fours speak for themselves -and you question if he know what the hell he is doing? - - Come on man let's be real
I would offer that this is not an argument. It is more a statement as to why we should always start any discussion giving his decisions the benefit of the doubt. But when you can tell me that Bill Self has not made a mistake, then we'd have something. But until that time, it seems fair game to critique and determine when he's made poor decisions.
jayballer73 said:
Marco said:
jayballer73 said:
Marco said:
@ajvan How can he? He doesn't even know who to replace or how many scholarships he has.... Who to offer and who not. If you don't think that Hampton cares whether Grimes is or isn't coming back you are probably mistaken. If you were him would you?
If your a player with the type of talent that RJ has , you really think Quentin Grimes would scare RJ off? - - Come on man get real - -if your an elite talent like he is - you should have the confidence - -that edge you better then anyone else on that floor back it up - -RJ knows you can't just walk in an get a spot - -you compete for that position if competition is there -and if he wasn't willing to compete and afraid THE OTHER is better then him? - we don't want that type of player anyways -- RJ is not afraid of competition and sure the hell not afraid of Quentin. - -I think Bill knows Jussssssssss a little more then you or I or anyone else on here - I think his 14 straight championships speak for themselves - his hall of fame induction pretty well speaks for its'self - -I think his National championship speaks for it'self - - I think his final fours speak for themselves -and you question if he know what the hell he is doing? - - Come on man let's be real
They are players not machines, of course he cares.
your DEAD WRONG PERIOD - - just dead wrong no if and or but's - -RJ could give a rats ass if Grimes is there or not. - -WHY ? - - because he is a competitor -and a dam good one at that - -why the hell would he give a tinkers dam , if your as good as they say you are and you think you are - you could care less who is there BECAUSE you are that competitor -I would be saying Bring it Quentin - -let's see what you got - -you WIN that spot - -it's not given to you - -nothing is just given to you - -and RJ would welcome the challenge if it comes to that - -you are DEAD WRONG
You might be dead wrong. Maybe. Or you might be right. We don't know RJ. But clearly, players make decisions when there is potential competition that could impede immediate playing time. That's undeniable. RJ would have seen the great deference given Grimes, he might also see that Agbaji is pretty stout, he might also see that Garrett might have coach Self "pet" status -- when dealing with the latter two, that might not be enough to dissuade him. But add in Grimes, a top 10 guy, it's certainly plausible.
KUSTEVE said:
@Kcmatt7 I'm sure he indirectly manipulates the roster, but he never comes out and says you aren't welcome here. Not to 5 star recruits.
And that's the distinction. Behind the scenes maneuvering where it's a lovefest upon departure vs. an ugly show. But to deny a top 10 player the opportunity to return would be a much different deal either way (unfortunately)
“We don’t need to visit to Kansas or Memphis,” Rod Hampton told Daniels. “But the next couple of days he’s going to decide where Texas Tech stands. If he’s serious about that then we’ll go visit.”
http://m.kusports.com/weblogs/tale-tait/2019/may/20/five-star-target-rj-hampton-eyeing-retur/ ↗
@Kcmatt7 The narrative has been that Self has "had" to play Grimes because of his OAD status, thus not to impair his ability to lick the boots ... er, recruit such highly ranked guys in the future. Don't you think to reject Grimes' return would be suicide, not only with OAD fellows, but with the other guys that aspire to the NBA?
I would offer that, yes, we HAVE to take him back.
But to your position, are you thinking Self could strike a deal with him, one of those quiet, we all love each other deals, where we let him out of his scholarship and permit him to transfer without sitting a year?
Because I can't even imagine that Grimes' wants to come back, Self says no, and the backlash that would follow.
Am I missing anything?
@BShark We did ... and we've had it for years. But no one has ever said that KU "can land any top 25-75 player if they want" with this approach.
What has been said is that if KU focused it's recruiting efforts in that general range, outside of presumed OAD, we'd have a better team that would better fit what Self desires, and we'd have more success in that range because we're not wasting our time with the top end presumed OADs. Nothing is perfect, and the stray targeted OAD for an open spot on the roster sometimes happens, including grad transfers. But if we get out of the presumed OAD game, I think there is a strong argument that our program will be better overall. It is obvious that in some years, not having that plug and play OAD might not be totally beneficial (folks have argued X in 2010, Wiggins in 2013). Clearly, Josh Jackson being here was a plus on the court. But in all three of those seasons, we got out of the first weekend once. The other presumed OADs have been complete disasters (Selby, Cliff, Diallo) ... the latter two I'd argue were because our coach was not enamored.
@Marco I don't know what you mean by Kentucky. They have players withdraw from the draft and return. Had one last season.
@Marco You said, "... fill out the rest of the roster with top 20 to 75 guys." Your point is one that I have discussed here on multiple occasions. I think it is a good one. I firmly believe that the key is that the coach has to make a commitment to the players outside of OAD range (up to a certain level) that he will never recruit over them with a presumed OAD. Committing to avoiding the presumed OAD is the key. That is completely realistic. It's as simple as doing it. Further, it would set a tenor for the program, it would free up a massive amount of time that was otherwise spent chasing the next Andrew Wiggins, and most of all, it would fit better with Bill Self as a coach. If a school like KU focuses on that range of recruits, I fail to see how we can't land a nice crop each season.
@BShark I think sometimes we confuse the "fielding the best team" with pursuing presumed OADs. I firmly believe presumed OADs don't make the best "team."
Marco said:
And really, in the big business that is college basketball (and it is a business) if I were the coach I would not allow the program to be taken hostage by the NBA draft. If they declare they go, as simple as that.
While your thought is attractive from a purist standpoint, I would guess such an approach might dissuade almost every player with NBA aspirations from coming our way. I think coaches have to put on a false face of support sometimes when guys test the waters under these new rules.