🏀 KuBuckets Archive

I have mentioned that the value to KU fans is irrefutable. From Bill Self, "It was a bigger game because it meant so much to the fan base." Bigger than what? Nearly everything else, right? Save some late NCAA tourney games. And that's really been a main point. We loved it. It was great for us.

And Matt Tait's article is great -- http://www2.kusports.com/weblogs/tale-tait/2017/oct/20/now-more-than-ever-border-war-about-the-/ ↗

May we all join hands as one in our desire to absolutely and unequivocally destroy MU tomorrow?

@mayjay Ok, fair enough. Now, is someone saying the earth is not flat?

I rarely jump to these other threads, but really, we scored 30 points on the road. Our defense has to get some stops. I am not an Alex Smith fan. I've felt he's too conservative (odd thing to ever come out of my mouth). Our secondary is a disaster. But our scheme is largely to blame. It's all man to man, which creates difficulty in run support (because the defender is back to the ball). The bend don't break philosophy, stop them inside the 20, does not bring added pressure -- blitzing backers or corners, or safeties -- near as much as might be helpful in late game situations. It's a give and take. However, the philosophy held Pittsburg to 6 field goals last January. A game we should have won. A game that fell on Smith's shoulders. I also think last week vs. Pittsburgh was a Smith issue. I don't think the Oakland game was his loss. And I think our five wins to start the season don't happen, but for Smith's excellent play.

@kjayhawks I think you're wildly underestimating Mahomes. Keep an open mind. A QB with a wild gun can be managed, dialed back, instructed. Time will tell. He will throw INTs, no doubt.

@mayjay Come on, now. That was little passive aggressive jab, you got a response you probably anticipated, and you were then able to offer the reply you intended to begin with (if you didn't choose the passive aggressive route). All "segues" aside.

@JayHawkFanToo Nothing can disprove my premise, because my premise is irrefutable. The rivalry is good for KU and we are better for having it. 100+ years of history, "hate" (in the sports sense), historic games, never ending banter, Norm, Roy, Sutherland, Stipo, crackers shakin', disgusting Antlers -- I mean, come on. This is done. I have never heard anyone refer to KSU fans as the "trash to the west." The irrational vitriol proves my point even further. While I was critical of the statement "trash to the east" referring to MU, it makes me chuckle. It's awesome when we talk MU. I may whine that it's over the top, but life sometimes is over the top. It proves why our competition with MU is different. Our discussions here and the incredible interest in a mere scrimmage proves the point. But there is no proof needed. Everyone knows. And we know why we have not been playing MU. Only one reason. Because Bill Self says we weren't. Now he says we are. When he hears that packed arena for a scrimmage -- he'll know too. The fact is, he already knows. We're outside the five year statute of limitations for hurt feelings (statute of repose is irrelevant because we're aware of our alleged injury, right @mayjay?)

@mayjay2 While my chicken clucking around AFH reference may have been what stuck out here, and that's good, my rationale goes far beyond cowardice. Of course, I don't think Bill Self is a coward. The chicken clucking thing was how it makes us appear, and really, I meant that more related to WSU. But the point is a good one.

Regardless, not playing MU or WSU relies on extremely strained logic if one is to compare to the balance of our schedule.

I think we don't play MU because Bill Self felt betrayed by MU. That's it. Just like everyone else. Could he be a bit concerned about losing in a one game shot? Sure. At least can appear that way.

I have attacked that rationale for not playing MU, because, again, it is very strained. The hypocrisy of playing others that left (CU, NU, TAM), the value of the rivalry to KU basketball, the enjoyment it brings fans, how it makes us appear as a university to refuse to play, etc. Having a truly despised rival is part of being a great team/program. My position is not reliant on hurt feelings -- feelings being SOLELY emotional. The only logic for not playing MU has been voiced many times, was that they were the first to mumble realignment. I grant that. They did mention it first. To buy that, is to believe that if MU had not mumbled it, we'd still be one happy 12 team family. That is inconceivable. No one believes that. And the rest is emotional.

On the scales of logic, MU mumbling realignment is far outweighed by the steel on the other side.

No clucking chickens this weekend. We need to pound them by 20. Short rotation. Game on.

Watch people pay for the scrimmage on PPV. Why? KU-MU. Rivalry deniers are losing.

This series is back on. Bank on it.

You all realize this MU embargo is over, right?

@BeddieKU23 One might hope that something like this might get the anti-NCAAA, anti-CBB folks to tone it down, but they won't. Folks like the hypocritical, illogical and conveniently shifty Bilas won't stop until they destroy CBB. And that is where many want this to go, to destroy CBB.

Man, I like a wealth of highly talented bigs. It's been a while. Lets hope it all pans out. But I sure like the two we have heading into the stable right now.

Nah, no interest in playing MU. Doesn't do anything for us.

@BeddieKU23 Being selfish, yes, I'd like 3 years or 2. But I think it's unreasonable for the NBA to put in a restriction like that unless someone was actually drafted and didn't come -- meaning that a team has the player's rights for a specific period of time.

@BeddieKU23 Could It be that it was Bill Self who screwed up the handling of the bigs in question? More Diallo and Cliff are my belief. The handling of both is all on Bill Self in my opinion. Well documented here as we lived it.

When Self has experienced security blankets, he'll bypass guys with much greater talent and toss out all sorts of excuses. Self recruited and chose Diallo and Cliff for his program. When you say "fit", that implicates Self.

It is ridiculous that an adult is limited from making a living in any profession solely because of collective bargaining, where the participants conspire selfishly to exclude that individual.

@KUSTEVE ---- D. Tell Roy I need a 1 foot stack of $100s to keep my mouth shut.

Hmmm ... wonder if that might be how it works anyway?

Charlie Moore as the back up point guard has a much better ring to it than the alternative -- as a starter.

Ok -- Hate, scum, racism, massacres, Hitler, pimp, slavery, Philippe Pétain, and little rocket man. All in one thread. Right or wrong, it's MU's fault. They inspired this vile, yet very entertaining, thread.

Can we all please agree, like the game or not, worried about injuries or not, that Self should play this game full out, full throttle, take no prisoners and run them into the ground?

@mayjay Well, maybe you're right. I always thought he meant the OAD types, based on the names referenced. But I could be wrong. I think the hypothetical non-conpiracy theorist himself should clarify.

@BShark I'm just glad we got a PG. This is a pretty stud class so far. Given that we lose Svi and Graham, and likely Newman (though not a guarantee), I want more.

I am not a pure embargo guy, but in the learning stages. Dotson is bit higher than Devonte Graham (37). Dotson isn't an OAD. Not really even whispers of that. Not seeing him in 2019 NBA mocks. Not even 2nd round. So I'd the embargo scenario stands.

My hesitancy on the embargo thing is that we've never popped a presumed OAD PG -- adidas, pre-adidas or even pre-Nike. Maybe that proves it? I don't know. I'm more intrigued by the lack of a presumed OAD center of domestic origin over the last number of years

@StLJhawk Rich stay rich. But without the rich, who funds the jobs? It's just a harsh and inconvenient truth. And remember, rich people use their stockpiles of money. They just don't have it sitting stagnant. Winners and losers are the unfortunate reality of a system that created the greatest economic power the world has ever known. Life ain't fair. Trickle down is a misnomer. It's a flow of economic activity. Trickle down has been used in a way where one assumes if you cut taxes for the rich, and coddle the rich, that will "trickle down." I'm not a huge believer in that. I am just not in favor of penalizing them or taxing them at higher rates.

@DanR Bingo. Of course it smells fishy. It is fishy. It is cover in my opinion. The reality is that this is a first step where we can save face and get back to playing our real rival. We can then all say we liked it so much, the fans loved it, blah, blah, blah, and then we'll be back playing again. Where we should have been after a year post-MU leaving. But when you're so rigid out of the box, backing off is very difficult. Look, as I've pointed out here many, many times, the hypocrisy of not playing MU while playing all the other defectors, is undeniable at this point. This allows us to grow up ... er, move forward. And allows Self an out. But that's all just speculation here.

And I do apologize for the jabs at the "don't play MU ever, ever again because they betrayed us and hurt our feelings and cheated on us and we don't gain anything from playing them because it's better to play Davidson or Utah or Omaha and, Chase Daniel picked his nose on TV and, well, they're just bad people" crowd. It's not right for me to poke a little fun on this topic. Again, my apologies.

Everyone, please smile .. we'll kick their a**.

"Trash to the east"? I dislike MU with the best of them, but the foolish statements never cease to amaze me. It's just sports.

@JayHawkFanToo So are you suggesting they don't play full speed? How else do you play? You take it easy? You can get hurt just as easily in practice.

Play hard and kick their tails. Full out. Game on.

The comment above from @Kcmatt7 makes this obvious .. what other game would sell out so quickly he mentions? Right. OF COURSE. And I'm not getting into this debate again. I'm tired of winning this debate.

And KU didn't sell out the Sprint Center vs Georgia last year -- only 12,100 in capacity 18,972 arena.

@dylans "Slanderous without more info." Exactly. It is the news media, it is ESPN. And the issue is not reporting it. The issue as with nearly all other one sided media accounts, including ESPN's not stop slobbering over the national anthem stuff, is reporting and providing only one side of the story, or giving a cursory, limited, or unintelligible reference to the other side. And not providing a reasonable explanation (in this case) of what their sensationalistic reporting means.

When we start talking athleticism, this is an image that just makes me smile. Makes me remember the days when shorts were short, when wrist bands were a fashion statement, when Converse all-stars ruled the day, and when the afro was an art form. I have nothing against Jerry West and Michael Jordan, but this should be the NBA's logo. We can overlook the ABA on the jersey -- pretty sweet, though. The doctor makin' a house call.

!@.id\==VjJ-n2FoW0m1U-CrVo-FnJbF8IeqG4kQdHIddaAKhQIbGAZPh7ITylEQfqS86Gx3NqXE4QS589m2ULn4HOf3kMCF_g/messages/\@.id\==AGGq1QoAABJGWd7UlAXnuCNoGnw/content/parts/\@.id\==2/raw?appid=YahooMailNeo&ymreqid=77e4f6da-ee32-665b-01c3-e50004010000&token=pNlTFskYtyuYoEobOUzyd0tQD6uZipZtMuSOrVmSPQJyy-1ViaHW_pclfpP-KHuKXgcRGm0v4kAVMQjQEFozGt1VuypzNrRuf66XW2GN8g6rYBXlZQhEcRvNJgtq8N0h" target="_blank" rel="noopener">alt text ↗

Good question on Cunliffe. He seems like the guy on the short end of minutes. Garrett looks a decent bit better in my opinion. Really like what I saw with Garrett.

Of course athleticism is nice, and at times can be overwhelming, but I generally want the skilled player first. Guys who are athletic and can't control it are not long for this game, particularly when their peers are close to as athletic. Cunliffe might not be ready to be a player until next season.

Jayhawks got paid this week. Perhaps Self can get copies of the contracts to add to his recruiting materials. I hear there is a clause in the contract that it can be voided if he puts his hands on hips like a woman too many in a season, but that may be a rumor.

My prediction is that he's going to Louisville.

@dylans I agree with your sentiments until you start talking about what billionaires do with their money. Obviously someone that is wealthy would have some actual cash stockpiles in a safe somewhere. But the fact is that it is the rich that provide the vehicles that drive our economy. The rich own businesses and invest in businesses directly. Without the rich, a large chunk of jobs would simply not exist. The offering of publically traded stock is essentially a capital fund-raiser for a company to expand (and employ more people). Bonds of course serve that function without the ownership piece. If a rich person invests with a brokerage firm or hedge fund, those employees make money off of the rich person, and then spend that money. The investments themselves also trigger economic activity. Heck, even if a rich person parks their money in banks, it is in large part that money that is used by the bank, for example, to fund a mortgage loan, fund construction projects, give car loans, invest themselves, etc.

Folks dislike rich people generally (not saying you) because of course they have what most want. And many are very dislikeable. But without that sort of money and business acuity, our economy would be dead.

It's like the myopic unions that demand pay raises, then watch the company go out of business; or the fools that demand a $15 an hour wage for a job literally anyone could do. They don't understand that there is a business owner who usually works longer hours, and has put his/her financial future into the business, and simply won't engage in that activity if there isn't a reasonable payout.

NBA players in my opinion should get every dollar they can or want to get, so long as the business can operate efficiently.

Additional info on this contract .. certain injuries could limit the total paid to Embiid, it appears.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20985023/joel-embiid-extension-protects-philadelphia-76ers-case-contractually-specific-catastrophic-injury ↗

@Fightsongwriter There are about 50,000 surgeons in the US and about 450 NBA players. In their profession, NBA players are far more elite. And as I referenced earlier and as @mayjay reiterated, NBA players do something that folks are willing to pay high dollar for. If their pay was cut, the owners and team administration would make all of the money the players didn't. Value to society isn't measured in money. Compensation generally flows from how many other people can do the same job and the demand for that activity. Surgeons are valuable of course but that value is relative to the number of others that can do the job.

I am puzzled by the "societal imbalance" comment. If you care to elaborate, I'd be interested.

@Kong I would disagree on CEOs. Many times, CEO pay is tied to company production. Many also bring elite management and business skills to the specific industry in which they are employed. Many work very long hours, and sacrifice by moving their families from coast to coast to advance their standing. Many are very highly educated and have worked hard to get where they are. Look at Bill Self as a coach -- he's a CEO of a multi-million dollar program. High knowledge and skills specific to his industry. I doubt many of us argue his pay rate as being unfair given what he produces. We can be irritated by their pay vs. the average Joe, but the harsh reality is that the average Joe's job can be done by nearly a large, large number of people. It's why teachers don't get paid much. Supply and demand. And the reality is that many folks that are very highly paid are in a precarious spot -- take away their niche, and they are an average Joe (or near to it).

@Kong @Fightsongwriter - I personally think that athletes are paid fairly. They are professionals in a big, big money business. The owners make decisions on entering collective bargaining agreements, and on what to pay in balance with their product and the industry. The pro athletes have something very few have -- highly elite skills. The highly elite brain surgeon gets paid very well. The key to making money is doing something of which many others are willing to pay, or forced to pay. Paying Embiid was purely a business decision. I do wonder if there is some high premium insurance policy in place there regarding the contract. Of course, this is a demonstration of oppression in America where folks that can put a ball through a hoop can make many times more in a year than the nurse who cares for cancer patients can make in a career. We know it's really just supply and demand.

Charlie Weis is jealous.

@KUSTEVE What about it? Nut shot? Bad end of game, end of OT plays by Self? Blown big lead? Failure to foul Burke before the 3 point shot?

@KUSTEVE EJ actually was point guard in high school, in Vegas. He was recruited as a point guard. I spent some time researching him and all of that, trying to convince @jaybate-1-0 that he should start over Tyshawn at the PG spot. Anyway, as you know, handling the ball against some guys that will be lacing them up for intramurals the next year isn't near D-I stuff. I like your projection there .. between Mason and EJ. That's tolerable. And that's all we might need.

@BShark So what do you think of Garrett's ballhandling? Seems a little 2-guardish. I used to be ok with that to a degree, but after the EJ experience, I'm a pure point guard guy. No combo guards please -- combo guard is code for, "can't dribble like a point guard." I want the bad a** ball handler.

@KUSTEVE I don't know. Moore just seems marginal to me. @BeddieKU23 said, "But CM has his limitations height wise, athletically, and questions about his efficiency and production." True. And I don't like that truth. CM seems like a guy that is a capable back up, and a guy that we can easily (and should) recruit over. But that judgment is made off his freshman season, and seeing him from the Italy trip. I just don't want to go to battle with him starting.

@BeddieKU23 Self could realistically tell Dotson that he's the starter at PG, correct? Do you see any impediment there? Charlie Moore isn't much of a roadblock it would appear/I would hope.

Don't get me wrong, I love Devonte. But I don't see this happening. I don't think he has "it." Excellent player, yes. All-American, go-to guy, stepping in near to Frank's shoes -- not so much. Not a slam at all. It's quite a deal to be an All-American/go-to guy. And we can still with the NC of course even if he's not a first team All-American.

Subjective opinion for sure on the "it" thing. The Oregon deal has a bit of an impact though.

@ICTJayhawk Well welcome then. Thought you might have been the ict mentioned by @mayjay. Goes back well into the kusports days.

@BShark There is nothing better than Self complaining about the team's defense, as there's nothing more directly related to winning than team defense.

This is going to be a weird team I think .. perhaps unlike any other Self has had. I could see us struggle in every phase of the game.

Defense does concern me. Not even a quasi-stopper in the bunch. Ball handling is a question mark. Graham is not close to Mason's magic there. And is Newman even of #2 quality with the ball? Who is really a go to guy? We had two last year. Besides Udoka, who hammers the boards? Preston doesn't seem to have that gene. Is Newman really a guy we can rely on for consistent scoring? And who is the 40+% three point shooter besides Graham -- since our lack of inside bodies will necessitate more shooting?

More question marks here than in past years.
But we have coach Self. That seems to outweigh most everything else.

@ICTJayhawk So, is this the old "ict" Jayhawk from back a few years ago?

I do love projected lineup stuff ... when we actually had 11 players in the mix, it was a touch more interesting though.

We are very handicapped by our big man situation. But the jury is out on whether it will harm us in March. Even in 2012, Wesley was our 4th man in the post and KY the third -- plus we had two guys that were both better than what we have now. How things have changed.

I personally think that Vick will become the next big thing here. I think he's better than Svi. Self seemed to favor Vick down the stretch last season.

My starting lineup would be Graham, Newman, Vick, Preston, and Udoka. Almost a no brainer. But if we are playing the same scheme as last season, Svi might get the nod over Preston. By December 1, it's Preston for sure (unless he's really Carton Bragg, as some doomsayer mentioned here at some point -- don't say things like that).

I truly think that this is also PF-Light's time to shine -- Mitch Lightfoot. What a great situation for him to be in. He's needed, which is a good place to be.

@jayballer54 @mayjay Thanks for the chuckle ... and officials really are the finest folks I've ever met. Good day.

I'm glad you find it all "very interesting."

Officials, by and large, are jacka****. And I wouldn't compare to the rest of the population. Certain folks gravitate to positions where they can exert authority. Some officials are just jaded by doing it for too long. Many just don't have the temperament. Some are just doing it to make extra money, and not because they love sports or even care about the kids.

Many forget that in the youth context, they're the only ones getting paid. By and large, jack***s.

And as far as the fat reference, which I guess you're offended by (whatever ... someone's always offended), that's to highlight that he shouldn't even be on the floor. He was way overweight, out of shape, and can't even get up and down the floor to do his job the right way. You actually see a lot of fat refs that kind of waddle around. It's a disservice to all involved .. except of course the ref, who gets paid regardless of his performance. Not so sure what you found interesting about it. Fat people are limited in what they can do. Harsh reality of fatness.

We had one fat umpire we called Jaba the Umpire -- worked all the time, never once ran anywhere. He couldn't. Just an absolute affront to the game. And he was one of those "my field" and "I'm the boss" kind of guys. Not a bad ump if you planted him right behind the plate (other than attitude), but he couldn't do his job in the field. He apparently shined shoes or was a barber or something like that during the day -- umpiring was his opportunity to be the boss.

It's also comical when you talk about a referee's view of things. Multiple times over the years I've had circumstances where I've seen, heard of, or been a part of officials (baseball, basketball, football) being confronted with video --- they don't want to see it. It's a joke. Not once have I ever seen, heard of, or been a part of an official in any sport saying sure, let me look, and then saying, wow, I had a different view, sorry I missed that.

I have had officials, mainly baseball, concede later in a game that maybe they missed something. Those are very few, very far between. Why? Because the instruction they receive is to NEVER concede. I've been to the clinics. I've seen it first hand. To suggest you might be wrong, or might have had an obscured view, or are anything less than 100% correct is a sign of weakness and compromises their authority over the game -- that's close to a quote.

And remember, when you're dealing with a drunk fan, YOU are getting paid. And yes, you do have to deal with fan issues if you sign up for the job. Players, coaches, fans have passion. And for each of those three groups, they have invested a lot of time and energy in their endeavor -- and they generally pay to play.

@DanR I will never officiate again. I will never go to the dark side. I umpired parts of 8 summers from age 14-22, and did 4 years of basketball. I heard fellow refs/Umps talk about kids and coaches in ways that would make you never trust one again. That's partly why I won't.

As a coach, I've experienced the full gamet of referee/umpire incompetence. Folks that don't even know the rules. But worse is the attitude toward players, coaches, fans. This attitude is furthered and supported by supervisors who encourage them to "be in control" and "not take any crap." As a board member for youth sports leagues, I've dealt directly with this unfortunate dynamic directly, and with folks who are offended by questions about their knowledge of the rules. I've seen firsthand how umpires/officials are directed on how they need to "take control" and not deal with any questioning of their authority.

And that's the key with the mentality -- their authority. It's a warped perspective.

In a high school age baseball game this past summer, an ump threatened to clear out the seats behind the plate if he heard anyone questioning his calls -- all this before the game even started. I literally have thousands of examples.

Talked to the supervisor who told me that he was one of his best umpires. I mentioned what he said, and the supervisor was then indignant --- telling me it's his field and he can do what he wants to.

That puts it in a nutshell.

Another example was a high school age summer basketball game. Very overweight, lazy Referee throws out two opposing coaches over his blown call; he engages fans, curses, threatening them. He then gets done with the game, lights his cigarette, is on his phone arguing with his wife, gets in his 1992ish Toyota and drives away to what I'm sure is his pleasant life. And despite his continual issues, supervisors blindly defend him and he continues to ruin games.

I saw a high school umpire cost a team a state tourney game because, after all of supposed years of experience, he was out of position on the game deciding play at the plate, standing behind the catcher. He single handily ruined a season for a group of kids. Yet he'll be out there again, ruining games.

How long has Ted Valentine been ruining CBB games? He's been defended by a corrupt culture.

I can hear examples of good officials and such, of the which I have the same examples, but there is an attitude and approach by many -- not a minority -- that is sickening. A focus on their "authority." They think they are the show, that it's their game/field, and it's their stage to exert control and tell people what to do -- instead of just officiating the game. They live in this weird culture where they think their supposed job is so difficult, and no one understands. It's all promulgated by the culture within the circle of officials and supervisors.

Referees/Umpires/Official suck. High school. College. Pro. Youth. It's perhaps the worst group (collectively) of folks in any profession I've dealt with. Many are self absorbed control freaks that use the sports venue to do something they either don't get in their regular jobs, or they actually do in their regular jobs (because they gravitate to it -- like cops). Many law enforcement folks moonlight as officials. One of the best I know was a deputy sheriff. Many other excellent officials. But good grief, the number of control freaks and folks blessed with sheer incompetence is astounding.

Higgins is an example of the group I'm referring to. Showboating, all about him -- disgusting.

Venting over.

All's good .. we can reset to the validity of the case as arbitration is complete. I will re-review the @Kcmatt7 links. Time issues today.

@Kcmatt7 The reason I responded was because of the completely definitive statements you made about why prosecutors file cases. You have backed off those definitive statements now stating that "you know." I take it now that "you know" prosecutors sometimes file cases with very little evidence, with poor motives, with an eye on another defendants, and/or on questionable legal grounds. That wasn't clear to me prior to me engaging the topic with you. If you held those positions, it did not come across in what you typed here. So that is that then.

Perhaps you can take what "you know", and look at the current CBB case with a skeptical eye. Perhaps like a white collar defense lawyer might, or how a judge might.

I am curious, who do you think was "defrauded" in the CBB case? I don't see anyone that was defrauded. That goes to the heart of why I think the charges are, at best, wildly creative. Remember, if you say the school was defrauded, that means they didn't know about these types of deals.