The evidence, frankly, is undeniable that Roy is a better coach than Bill Self when it comes to results (the ultimate judge) -- Just since Roy left, Roy has won 8 ACC titles, been to 6 Final Fours, and has won 3 national titles. Self is a full two-thirds behind Roy's curve on the big ones (Self 2 FF and 1 NC), and I think a reasonable mind might agree that 8 ACC titles is more impressive than 13 Big 12 titles, particularly when you have teams that actually win national titles in the ACC (including arguably the best program in the last 25 or so years in Duke).

Folks, that is irrefutable evidence. In court proceedings, it might not be "beyond a reasonable doubt", but it is certainly "clear and convincing".

That said, it is more fair to judge Bill Self vs. Roy when Self is 66 years old. The evidence at that point in time could be different. Self would need four final fours and two national titles in that time frame, with another 8 league titles, in the next 12 seasons to compare.

To answer your question, I will guarantee KU wins a national championship in the next 10 years. Like Namath in the Super Bowl. No doubt. I would be absolutely shocked if we don't have one in the next five seasons.

@approxinfinity My first thought was, "yea, maybe ping pong."

But freaks like Jordan are great at everything. So probably not.

@BShark The focus on Ayton reminds us all a bit of the "all in" on Kaleb Tarczewski (which Self said he'd never do again)-- which left us hanging. Gave us Landen Lucas, who was the best available as I recall. This may not have been quite a pronounced, though.

@BeddieKU23 Maybe .. I think both could play side by side. Udoka could be gone. Hope not. But he could be. Preston seems like the prima donna type (purely preliminary and speculative at this point). So he may have his eyes set on the NBA in a Selby-like fashion.

21 ain't the makins of an OAD, I'd say. Maybe Mr. Preston will be here a touch longer.

I also see a position called "CG" .. combo guard. There is simply no such thing. Either you are a point guard, or you are not. Point guards can pretty much always play off the ball. Non-PGs can't play effectively on the ball. Just an observation.

I had never even heard of this kid ... apparently it's KU and Illinois.

Charlie Moore. ↗

@brooksmd Nice .. My favorite Tarik Black, really, is just listening to the guy talk. Well spoken and clearly a guy with leadership abilities. One of those players that would have been a perfect four year guy for Bill Self. Wish we had him longer.

@Kcmatt7 I know this is not exact, but if you look at the graphic above, the two Adidas schools have 29 of the 89 players, or 32%. Between Nike and Adidas schools, the ratio is 68.7 -31.3. Again, not an exact comparison as the actual Adidas school number is lower overall as there are other companies as you mentioned.

Adidas schools regularly in the top ten classes are KU, Louisville, and UCLA -- that would be 30% of the total top ten classes, which matches up favorably with the ratio of schools that are Adidas.

I don't doubt that kids avoid Adidas schools. I guess I'm just quibbling with this over-arching embargo concept.

@Kcmatt7 Am I correct in your conclusion that because Duke and UK obtain better ranked recruits, there is thus an embargo? Embargo meaning those schools eliminated from consideration due to their affiliation (if others have a different definition that is more expansive, I'm interested -- embargo seems limited to a strict non-consideration).

Does anyone know how many Nike schools there are vs. Adidas schools?

We complain about how we somehow don't get top recruits -- an imaginary embargo. The numbers don't lie, though. We have the 4th most top 100 guys? That's free trade.

Is it surprising that a few teams might have more than us?

That said, the think what skews UK a bit is the number of one and dones -- meaning they rotate in multiple top 100s more often than we do. They might have 3-4 top 100s leave, and then replace them again (just more turnover, really).

Poor choices, poor circumstances (you name the reason) have been the only issue -- and it's all related to big men. Forget blame, Cliff, Diallo, Bragg. Pretty much all wastes of time and effort. Three top 100 guys that contributed very little in the end vs. what was reasonably anticipated.

Recruiting is not our problem. It really isn't. We are in the game. The big guys we've landed -- early/late -- haven't worked out. It might be the OAD thing. The focus on the crème (like Cliff and Diallo).

I still believe, and have always believed, the anti-OAD formula is the best approach. Josh Jackson was an unequivocal success on the court.

However, off the court, he created major distractions. This distraction element is not unique to OADs. But in our case, it was an OAD. However, it was not the normal OAD drama I had regularly referred to. JJ was the anti-OAD drama guy.

I can assure everyone, and every KU fan everywhere, that Kansas -- with Bill Self as coach -- can win a national title without one OAD. Without the pursuit of one year guys.

If you think that Bill Self is a better coach that Roy Williams, as many KU fans do, well, Roy just did it and has done it without OADs.

@BShark PER is an odd animal sometimes. Graham's was 17.4 last season, Svi's PER was just 14.1, and Vick 12.7.

A 16 PER for Cunliffe would actually be amazing, I think -- so thrilled is a good term.

Mason was 25.5 and JJ 24.1.

Just as info, Wiggins was 21.4 in his season, and Embiid was 28.2. Marcus Morris' 29.3 in 2010-11 was the best I could find for a Kansas player under Self.

@REHawk Bragg certainly was the gatekeeper of his own playing time. Not once this season did I think, "Self is really underutilizing Bragg", except in the Oregon game where I was just curious as to why he didn't get any PT. Bragg's no show this past season was nothing less than shocking.

@JayHawkFanToo If we sign Duval, we'd start Graham, Duval, and Newman most likely. That would create pace, I think. Wishful thinking most likely. Svi might be 2nd off the bench after Vick. BC Dynamo if the NBA is a no go? Maybe.

I still say last season was his best coaching job. Total change in approach. Calm on the bench. Lucas and fumes inside. Amazing.

@approxinfinity Great topic.

I will again profess my love for the high/low. Not romantic love. Practical, best friend type love.

Best offensive scheme in basketball. Self matched his scheme to his personnel this past season. He should do that every season. Here's hoping we can get back to the high/low at some point.

That said, I don't think the three is going away. If it makes sense, Self will let it fly.

I wonder if we will see some hybrid offense with Preston at the top of the high/low, and flowing in a 4/1 offense as JJ did? I bet Self has been contemplating that for a while.

I sure do regret that Bragg was not able to be the high in the high/low. It seemed to be the perfect fit. Excellent passer. Great from 15-17 feet. Decent off the bounce.

@wissox You said "I never ended up having mugshots taken, court dates, stories about me causing $3000 worth of damage to another persons car, never been cuffed, never been mentioned in the paper, so no, don’t think I was an embarrassment to my parents. Sure I made mistakes, but criminal acts are in a different category of mistakes. Mistakes are forgetting to turn off the coffee pot, or taking a wrong turn or whatever. So sure everyone makes mistakes, but not everyone terrorizes (no matter how misguided she may be) another woman."

You are right on point. Folks that ignore your points simply have a different set of values. We see it throughout our society. Why should it be a surprise here?

@jayballer54 Your response here is very unfortunate. I have no idea what would possess someone to make a post like that on this site. You can be tired of this "bull****" all you want. But I'll give you some enlightenment -- there is right and wrong in this world and to harshly judge someone's poor conduct is not an offense to humanity. It is actually what helps inspire and further humanity.

That said, we all know JJ's conduct was not the end of the world. We can all be hopeful that he takes his medicine, gets his diversion, and learns from this. Perhaps this was the best thing that could have happened to him. No one got hurt, and he can see how close he was to a very bad outcome. It's up to him to learn from it.

I was just getting ready to post a demand .. that Bill Self revoke the offer the KJ Lawson, or require that he strongly apologize for the embarrassing "F-Tubby" video.

Now that he apologized, I still feel dirty. And embarrassed.

I'm always curious on this "best team" thing.

The NCAA tourney doesn't determine the best team. No tournament is really geared to that.

Tournaments determine CHAMPIONS. Always have, always will.

@mayjay I would take Kevin Young, yes .. good thought on what we might be looking for.

@Kcmatt7 Thanks for the info and good point about being an early signee. Time to fix a mess.

@BeddieKU23 @JayHawkFanToo -- You both have lessened my concern a bit. But you know, until we get word that he's been cleared by the omnipresent "Clearinghouse", it's just there.

That said, a "quck twitch 4 man" -- Traylor-like? Athletic? Not a sloth or lumbering guy?

Don't we have that in Lightfoot (I thought)?

This whole Billy Preston thing has me concerned. A lot riding on him being in the mix. I've heard nothing positive on eligibility since the rumbles the other way.

Five high schools in four years.

This is critical news. DG can be our leader and our go-to guy. Senior leadership cannot be understated.

More Frank Mason. I can't get enough. Frank Mason won every player of the year honor. The best player in college basketball. This was accidental perfection. An amazing story.

Trey Burke. A poster in the last week or so referenced Trey Burke. We watched Trey Burke shoot us out of the NCAA tourney in 2013 -- the 142nd ranked Rivals player. We wondered, why can't we find a Trey Burke?

Coincidentally, we did .. in our 2013 recruiting class.

With Michigan, Trey Burke fit what John Beilein was recruiting. While Burke's fame and skill were certainly a surprise, his role was not. At Michigan, he would fit right in.

At Kansas, Frank Mason was one big accident. Meaning, Frank Mason should never have happened.

Frank Mason arrived in the same recruiting class as Andrew Wiggins, Joel Embiid, Brannen Greene, Wayne Selden and Conner Frankamp. Yet Mason will go down as the one of the greatest Jayhawks in history, leaving the other bigger names in the 2013 in the dust.

When we signed Mason, he was the 132nd rated player .. here's the [KU Sports story on Mason's signing] (http://www2.kusports.com/news/2012/oct/08/point-guard-frank-mason-commits-ku-basketball/). ↗ He chose Kansas over Alabama, Rutgers, Virginia Tech, UTEP and South Carolina. No major programs were knocking.

How did it happen?

Completely by accident. This was no predetermined "diamond in the rough" that Bill Self sought out and snagged, eschewing other bigger names -- knowing that this lower ranked player was the player he wanted. Nope. Mason was an afterthought. Mason was the guy we got, because we were stuck, and because we didn't get other guys.

Credit goes to Self for signing him, and his staff for identifying him and signing him. In fact, Self played him immediately. Mason had a solid game his freshman season in the Champions Classic against Duke at the beginning of the season. But he simply would not have been here had just one of a litany of other players chosen Kansas.

In September of 2012, Self famously said we needed "a point guard." All that while Conner Frankamp was signed as a point guard and Naadir Tharpe on the roster -- a foreshadowing, perhaps. But it was clear and concise.

Bill Self had missed on multiple, higher ranked point guards. Guys all of us were wanting. My personal favorite was Demetrius Jackson. But everyone of them said no. Here is the amazing list ahead of Frank Mason, that Kansas' name was associated with at one time or another.

1. Andrew Harrison, ranked #5: Went to Kentucky. One and done. Big target, but we weren't among his final choices.

2. Kasey Hill, ranked #10: Went to Florida. Four year player. We fell out of Hill sweepstakes before the final decision.

3. Rysheed Jordan, ranked #20: Went to St. Johns. Played two seasons. Now charged with attempted murder. We were never seriously in the mix as he favored east coast schools.

4. Anthony "Cat" Barber, ranked #27: Went to NC State. Played three season, turned pro. Major target. We were rumored to be in the driver's seat. Rumors of some odd stuff regarding his recruiting visit to Louisville.

5. Demetrius Jackson, ranked #38: Went to Notre Dame. Played three seasons, turned pro. Another major target. It was Kansas or Notre Dame.

6. Chris Jones, not ranked (JUCO Transfer): Went to Louisville. Played two seasons. Would have been a top 40 ranked guy for sure. Some had him higher than Barber. Another major target. Charged with rape. Charges dismissed, but not a good situation.

7. Roddy Peters, #48: Went to Maryland. Played one season, then went to South Florida and was booted; then to Nichols State. We had very late interest after the misses on Barber, Jones, and Jackson. He chose Maryland, after Mason committed to Kansas. It appears we took the bird in the hand as Peters was delaying. Not a pure point.

8. Stevie Clark, #70: Went to Oklahoma St. Played one season. Got dismissed from team, sued Travis Ford. Transferred to Oakland. A complete disaster. We were not in late.

I was the unfortunate soul who coined the "no rank Frank" complaints. Frank went from a poster child for recruiting misses, to my favorite Jayhawk of all time. Easy transition.

Interestingly, Nigel Williams-Goss, the Gonzaga PG, was in this class as well.

Has this caused Kansas to change how it recruits? Has Frank Mason changed Kansas recruiting? Not at all, it appears. Kansas still targets the highest ranked players. Those are the best bets, right? For every Frank Mason there are hundreds of strikeouts on guys that are ranked outside the top 100 at the time they signed.

The next diamond in the rough is sure to be an accident. But sure glad we got this one. The stars and planets aligned perfectly to give Kansas its best point guard ever, and one of the best Jayhawks of all time.

Most I think knew Bragg was gone.

We know JJ is gone (@mayjay - maybe we could get you a special prosecutor spot and you could threaten to upgrade to felony charges unless he did some extensive community service in the Lawrence area between Nov. - March.)

I think Svi is gone. I would be surprise if he stayed. If he returns, it will just be a pleasant surprise for me.

I think Devonte is back. His return makes great sense as it gives him the opportunity to highlight his point guard skills, and develop more running a team. His stock can go up substantially in that role.

That said, is anyone concerned that we're reading Devonte wrong -- can he really be a point guard? I heard a comment a few weeks ago that made me think. A KU fan said Devonte reminded him of EJ. A guy we thought could be a PG, but is not suited for the role. Interesting comparison.

@Texas-Hawk-10 We can't say "for sure", but this all of the earmarks of the force out. Having your tail glued to the bench in the most important game of the season is a bit of a sign. This was Self making the call. And I sense/speculate that the Bong did Bragg in.

@JayHawkFanToo Right .. sorry. My "big time" was meaning a top program and you clearly said elite conference. I would think that maybe the head job might be better, particularly with that D-1 asst. job on the resume already. If the D-1 assist job isn't on the resume already, maybe not.

@JayHawkFanToo I don't think a D-II head job is better. But getting that job, doing well, then landing a big time D-1 assistant job could be the progress he hopes for. Good to see a KU guy get the job.

Of course, no surprise at all.

@BShark Instead of responding as you did, consider the fact that I thought your post was actually very funny. Perhaps a perfect one liner.

@elpoyo To your point, I personally would love to see KU go to the Big 10.

@Kcmatt7 said:

KU overachieved this year after Doke went down. Bill did an amazing job using what he had. And I think he took a giant step forward as a coach this season that we will see come to light next year when we have depth.

Of course, Self could have won a national title with this team. He could have. But as constructed, it was a terrific coaching job after losing Udoka. You are right on point. As I had mentioned a while back, perhaps his best coaching job -- and he certainly took that big step forward as a coach.

I am convinced that UNC is the best team in the country. The best team did win the NC this season.

@BShark said:

Drugs: why do we take them?

Just classic.

@JayHawkFanToo I'm really struggling with how much we're agreeing on things these days … kind of nice, actually.

@cragarhawk You said .. "Dare I say that Selfs next 14 have a good chance of being even better than Roy’s last 14? Which would be an amazing run and I think it’s very possible."

Very possible. Self is just 54 years old.

Roy Williams is the greatest coach of this century in Men's College Basketball. Undeniable.

Roy recruited nearly perfectly. Can anyone recall the last time he had a one and done player?

Roy has won three national titles since he left Kansas. He is perhaps the best coach in college basketball -- arguments can ensue between Roy, K, Self, Izzo, and Calipari perhaps. That's a nice place to be in discussions.

Roy Williams is the greatest coach in college basketball in this century (since 2000). Compare his record with anyone and I think you will agree. Three National Titles, Seven Final Fours, Ten Conference Titles. The Greatest of the Century.

Roy Williams is a great guy and best we can, we should enjoy his victories. He gave us 15 excellent seasons, made sure this program stayed elite, left our program in great shape, and turned it over to another great coach. And he's never beaten KU.

Roy has three rings and eight conference titles at UNC since he arrived there. That trumps Coach K during that time period on both counts. Amazing.

@JayHawkFanToo We can all agree, the refs sucked. Just horrible.

@BeddieKU23 I think the lack of playing time is a nudge. That appears objective. Bragg, on the face of it, could have helped vs. Oregon as another option -- meaning, to see if he could have any success.

But of course we have zero idea what the behind the scenes discussions have been. It's really one of the more intriguing topics.

I've thought he's gone for a while now. The planets appear to be aligning.

If he stays, though, that is a pretty strong statement from all involved.

@dylans I'm sorry, what is it that you mean?

@dylans Sorry, but your post doesn't make sense to me.

Why discuss KU basketball at all when there are so many more important things to discuss? That's somewhat you point. Actually, why discuss things that you don't think have merit, when there are more important things to discuss, might be more accurate. Or when there maybe more important things going on in certain folks' lives.

No one says this is life and death.

I always wonder the purpose of such replies, like yours ... if the discussion so offends, and is so trivial, why participate?

Seems like you're doing a lot of the trivial complaining while many others are discussing what is a very significant issue with KU basketball ... albeit not on the scale of North Korea nukes.

If you want to move forward, then move forward. Start a thread. You'll probably get a lot of takers.

Wish more of these kids had mom AND dad involved in their lives.

@Hawk8086 Right .. I had followed up on exits when we were a non-#1 seed. The #1 seed stuff is obviously much more the irritant. As you said, if we'd snuck out a couple of those, we'd be in a different place in our discussion -- if he'd lost in the FF, we'd wonder why he couldn't win the title game (though, odds say, winning one of four FF appearances is par).

@dylans Real discussion of tournament issues has nothing to do with a "pity party." I guess you don't feel the discussion has any validity. That's certainly fine but I don't see "pity" being the purpose -- the purpose is the same as all the discussions here. Love for KU basketball and enjoyment in discussing the same. Sometimes that discussion isn't all peaches and cream.

@ParisHawk Also, just more known info .. we did underachieve as a non-#1 seed against Bucknell, Bradley, Stanford, Wichita St. Of course, those sort of stumbles are not unique to high-level coaches and every top coach seems to have similar missteps.

The reason I dislike refs so much is not that they make bad calls. Its that most are career officials and get the "officials' mentality." They think that it's their game. That they are "in charge." And they like to put on a show. Nothing sickens me more than a ref that actually thinks he does something that millions of others couldn't do, and then wants to be the show. Officials are really the worst part of all sports. And zero accountability. I'll stop now. My blood pressure is rising.

Self recruiting in the spring has been an amazing thing. Looking for rabbits and hats.

@wissox Interesting topic. It is hard to quantify chemistry, and it's hard to project Wayne to this season .

But in the advanced stats, Josh wins in a knockout -- Jackson a 24.1 PER vs. Selden 17.9.

And I would say that would square with the eye test as well.

Now, would we still be playing? Who knows? Brackets might have been different. If we were the #1 in the West, wouldn't it be fair to assume we'd be in the final four now? Gonzaga had an easy path based on how the tourney played out.

But all that said, I'd much rather gamble on Jackson than Selden.

@chriz Yikes .. when you say it like that, it's more painful.

@BigBad Truth is, Lucas just wasn't good enough against some players. That's true of every player. It's just that Lucas' talent level was lower than some other guys, so the likelihood of being overmatched increased. He was overmatched Saturday. The guy who really let us down is Bragg. He should have been a guy, supposedly 6'10" with more bulk, that should have been able to give us some offense there.

Interestingly, the same thing happened against Villanova -- inability to get some reliable hoops inside. But it was Nova's scheme (and our lack of effective adjustment to it) that stymied Ellis. Ellis only took 5 shots. That was on the coaches.

Lucas' failures, I think, were simply him being out-talented.

@justanotherfan You expect Bragg to be here?

Preston getting NCAA clearance concerns me.

@nuleafjhawk If the OSU ladies are that Cowgirls .. the SC girls would be the ... ?

@Blown Shhhhhh ... @jaybate-1.0 may be listening.

@nuleafjhawk Seriously ... is the SC basketball team the lady 'cocks?

We should compare ourselves and our achievements to the other blue blood programs, and to the other elite programs of the day (meaning more recent history -- UConn, Florida, Louisville, etc) -- that will help us determine if we're performing reasonably.

I love the graphic from @kjayhawks There's your guide. Since '04, slotting us in at around 5th or 6th spot is pretty fair. If you weight conference titles more, or tourney appearances, then perhaps we skip over a couple.

No way that I am satisfied with that.

We are not the top program since 2004. That's why I'm not satisfied. I don't care one iota as to whether other crap schools would be happy with our record. I'm sure they would be. It's irrelevant in my mind.

We are Kansas, as @nuleafjhawk said.

The difference here is just one -- one national title. That would add an additional title game and an additional final four. The entire narrative and discussion changes with another title. I've said that now going on 7 seasons -- since the UNI debacle. One ... more ... title.

Root for Gonzaga, or SC, or even Oregon .. because if Roy gets another, our mountain is steeper. Though, if someone had to be King other than Self, I'm glad it might be Roy.

.

What's so bad about being a chickenhawk? Seems like he did ok against old Foghorn Leghorn most of the time.

!Chickenhawk.gif ↗

@mayjay Appreciate the approach. I will say that the analysis not only involves the record, but also the performance of our team. I saw a post with our offensive output in each Elite Eight game, as well as the output of prior Bill Self teams. It's pretty stark. A number with the lowest offensive output for the season, if I recall. Further, there is also the "second game of the weekend" issue. This relates to how a coach has his team ready to play on a short turnaround vs. an unfamiliar opponent.

This is not the roulette wheel, or a flip of the coin. It's basketball. It's not a game of chance. There is an element of chance/luck to be sure, but it's just one of many elements.

We must also be sure not to view the Elite Eight/2nd game of the weekend record in a vacuum.

One might also say that Bill Self's overall record speaks for itself, the conference title streak speaks for itself, etc. They certainly do.

Bill Self owns the tourney issues. I don't hear him running from it. We saw him change quite a bit this season. My guess is he's going to self-reflect even further. And it's nothing winning two titles over the next five years won't cure, or even one in the next few seasons.

My view is we are in this together. Meaning Bill Self is one of us. He's a brother. He's not someone to be cast aside because we may have certain issues, with certain things.

To critique tourney performance is much different than calling for his head. I think that is what a clear majority have done with their comments -- critique and discuss. Some have gotten a bit irrational (just a few), but after a big tourney loss, extending a little rope (not to hang themselves, but to permit venting) is probably reasonable.