You have to take the polls and RPI in context. Many "voting" coaches have indicated before that they usually let an assistant fill the ballot since they really do not have the time to study every other team; likewise, the AP poll has its own set of biases depending on the reporters voting at the time. Both polls do not really look a the computer models so the RPI is not a factor. The RPI looks strictly at numbers but this early in the season it is not reliable; once conference plays get underway, the model becomes better. The same is true for predictive models such as Pomeroy, Sagarin and Massey; Sagarin actually has a disclaimer on his site indicating this much.
As far as the polls themselves, I don't really have a problem with where KU is ranked. All team above KU with similar records, have loses to teams in the top 3; KU loss to UK was by far the worst of the bunch so it is not surprising that KU has not moved up much. The pre-season ranking for KU was too high for a team this young that was bound to have few bad games before figuring the system; KU has improved faster than we would have predicted after the UK fiasco.
My firm opinion is that any coach that really thinks that Jamari Traylor should be used to initiate the offense, should see a psychiatrist. Meaning, in need of psycotropic drugs. I would actually question Self's sanity, again, if I felt he really meant it.
This is Coach Self's statement on the subject:
"And playing Jamari (Traylor) at the 5, at least he's always going to be quicker than any 5 man he has. I've even thought about making him the backup point guard, I'm being dead serious, if we played him and he initiated the offense, there would be no one that could apply pressure because he could drive around anybody. Not be the point guard that comes up and sets it up, but just bring it in transition and do some things like that. We've got to become more creative because it's going to totally wear Frank down if he has to do everything every possession."
Where exactly does Coach Self says that Traylor "should" be used to initiate offense as you posted? He is simply indicating that it is something they could do to get/manufacture offense/points. He specifically states that he would not the like traditional PG but one that could draw the center out and create space inside for the other players to opearte.
Sam Mellinger ↗ of the KC Star and many others (Google it) get it and this is what he wrote:
Evan Manning will play, for starters, and Self says he's thought of using Traylor sort of like a backup point guard. He first mentioned that in a room full of reporters, and the reaction was such that he had to clarify - "I'm dead serious."
The idea isn't to have Traylor bring the ball up the floor, but rather to help initiate offense away from the basket. He's quicker than any defender likely to guard him, so he wouldn't be pressured, and it would also help clear space for guys like Mason, Selden and Oubre to drive to the basket.
Generating offense from the perimeter is how most college teams have to get by, of course, so this isn't drastic. And at least by appearance and reputation, the Jayhawks have the pieces to make this work.
See, not everybody misrepresents Coach Self to fit his own narrative, like you just did in your post. Many reporters were surprised by the initial commentary but once he explained what he meant, no one seemed to think that Coach Self should see a psychiatrist like you do...and those are the people that make a living by writing about sports.
It is obvious to anyone that reads your posts that you don't like Coach Self or think much of him and constantly write about all the things he is doing wrong and the things he "should" be doing...since you know so much more than he does, of course. You will argue, as you usually do, that this is not the case, but all you have to do is look at your own posts and you will see that every rare occasion when you write something positive about him, it is usually followed by a tirade of negativity; I am not the only one that has called you on this. I don't claim to know much about basketball, it is not my job. I am just a fan that prefers to let the coach do his job...and he does it better than any other coach; as long as he does not tell me how to do my own job, why should I tell him how to do his job? but then, that is just me. :)
It must kill you every time KU gets another win and another conference title and Coach Self record keeps getting better, knowing that you are so much better than he is and know so much more than he does...and yet he makes all the millions, while you write post for the 30-40 people that regularly post in this forum. Maybe this is why you dismiss the conference titles and the amazing accomplishment they represent and state that only a national title will do, even when Coach Self has already won one and there are only 3 active coaches with more than one. His wining record at KU (0.826) is better than any other active coach at any one major school, even better than Calipari at UK (0.815) and all his McD laden teams.
Again, I have not asked anyone to stop posting, @jaybate's assertions notwithstanding, and I do not have any intention to do so now or in the future either; I have simply asked for some civility. You can take it for what is worth or ignore it altogether; it really does not make any difference to me.
You are free to post whatever you want and we are free to see it with a grain of salt, ignore it all together or like @jaybate will likely do, anoint you the next John Wooden, in the same way that @jaybate is free to post the long, long, long ...did I say long? post that is bound to follow. As George Takei would say...
Ojeleye was listed at 6'-6" 215 in his senior year and the official Duke roster listed him at 6'7", 230 and many of the article have him at 6'-8"; in short, and despite his athleticism, he is best suited as a SF, since he is a good long range shooter and he would be an undersized PF...and we have a few of those. Here are a few articles with perspectives from other schools.
KU did not offer a scholarship so I would think the interest is not that great. On the other hand it is ironic that MU would be interested since he clearly indicated that he wants to go to a school that makes it to the NCAA... :(
For what its worth, transcendental basketball meditation is done twice a day, once in the morning and once in the afternoon, for about 20 minutes each time. You can use any mantra you like. I use @JayHawkFanToo as my mantra to try to help him/her feel self actualized about getting in my head. For some reason, he/she feels some need to, so, well, you know me, I try to comply by working with what I am given. :grinning:
You can't get me out of your head, can you? It's like a nightmare, isn't it? It just keeps getting worse and worse. :)
Thank you for speaking out. Interesting that the people that profess to support free speech are the least tolerant when others exercise their right to free speech.
In my post I did not even criticize anyone specific, I simply cut and pasted comments made by others...maybe they have problems with their own words.
I came to this forum to have positive discussion about KU basketball and I try to keep my comments objective, constructive and positive and more often than not, I post links to the sources I use. If I wanted acrimonious discussions, I could have stayed at the other forum or joined one the many other boards that often have very caustic threads.
In the past I have expressed my opinion about threads dedicated to bash other programs and coaches, not to prevent any one from posting whatever they want but to remind them that, IMHO, this forum was established to have civil discussions mostly about "KU basketball" and hence the name KUBUCKETS.
For example, although I don't like Calipari and I believe that his approach is hurting the sports, I will often point out that he is generally consider one of the top 5 or 10 coaches in college basketball; same thing with Rick Barnes and Gregg Marshall, I am one of the few that looks also at their success and not just their shortcomings. Like I said, I like to look at the positive; too much negativity in the world to have it in a sports forum too.
I am always amazed by how much criticism Coach Self gets from some members in this forum; you would think that KU is one of the bottom feeders in the conference and scraping by to get a few wins per season and not the 10 times Conference Champion and John Wooden, Bobby Knight and Larry Brown are writing the posts. Earlier this evening I was talking to a friend in the East Coast and big Maryland fan and to whom I had sent a link to this forum. He indicated that he was shocked at the criticism of Coach Self and he said that Maryland and most every other program in the country would take him in a second. He indicated that Maryland had named the basketball court after Gary Williams, a coach who other than winning one National Championship, had fairly pedestrian record, 461–252 (.647) in 22 years where Coach Self is 333–70 (.826) in 11+ years...not even close. He indicate that if they ever had a coach with a record like Self's, they would not 0nly name the court after him but the arena, the campus and the county as well.
Again, we all have the right to write and post whatever we want, within the limits set by the board administrator, and we all also have the right to ignore members that we feel do not make a positive contribution to the discussions at hand. As I said, I have never asked anyone to post or not to post what they want, @jaybate-1.0's comments notwithstanding, I have simply and politely suggested that we keep the threads positive, civilized and focused on KU basketball. Again, we are all free to do as we wish.
Out of HS he was ranked where a lot of KU players that have done well were ranked, and although he had KU in his final 11 schools, he was not really recruited by KU and it was not in his final 4 list, FWIW, Duke was no either. I seem to recall someone posting at the time that he had problems getting along with other students, although this is often said about top students. He is a very good student and like Ellis he was his class valedictorian. He is a well above average 3-point shooter and leaper but he would be playing Sf or undersize PF, again, A lot like Perry Ellis.
His brother played at KSU but I understand his mom does not like Weber. If he values academics more than sports, maybe he should have stayed at Duke, otherwise Stanford, one of his finalist during recruiting, could be an option. Also, Gonzaga had shown interest in players leaving top programs and Iowas State has taken on an number of transfers and would be close to home, although he might not be enough of a troublemaker to end up there.
I think you have exactly right and Coach Self indicated that much...
From KUAthletics.com
POSTGAME QUOTES KANSAS
Kansas head coach Bill Self
On playing without Devonte' Graham:
"I don't think that was a huge factor in us not playing in the second half. It's going to be a factor moving forward because our team is different than any other team we've had since I've been here, we don't throw it to the post and score. We're not very big, and our two biggest guys have a hard time in there, they haven't developed that yet so we've got to find different ways to manufacture points. We're not doing it off our defense and we're not doing it in transition. Now the guy (Frank Mason III) that can really create for you in transition has to play 36 minutes a game. So it's going to be a situation where we've got to kind of redefine who we are. We won some games playing the way we have, which is fine, but the next three weeks we've really got to do some things to get better for conference play. But it's too bad about Devonte'. We hope we can get him back. There is no guarantee that he's going to come back, so we'll just play it by ear and re-evaluate him in about four weeks."
Coach Self indicated in the pre-game interview that Manning might see some playing time because of Grahams's injury, I seem to recall listening to it in the radio while hurrying home to catch the game. The comment you are referring to was made after the game in reference to what he said before.
According to KUSports.com he said:
“I meant to play him today,” Self said of Manning. “But when we’re playing well, don’t sub; playing badly you can’t put him in that situation. We’ve got to have a ball-mover back there.”
I believe that comment was made court-side right after the game but not during the aftre-the-game press conference. Here is link to the entire press conference and that comment is not there:
I did not want a YouTube screen to pop so you will have to cut and paste the link. I hope this clears up the confusion.
Yes, the number do say something but we have to look at them in context. KU is playing the 4 toughest schedule in Div I. If you look at the top 30 teams (as per Ken Pom) only KU and UNC (#13) have schedules in the top 30. If you expand to the top 60 ranked team, only 2 more (VCU at #15 and Green Bay at #10) have schedules in the top 30. Other than KU and UNC you just don't see other top teams with tough schedules. KU has now played 3 top-25 teams (2-1) and 6 of the 9 games have been away from the friendly confines of AFH. If KU was playing the #200 schedule in the country, then I ma sure the number would be considerably higher.
Look at where other conference teams have played (home-neutral-away, vs top 25)
TCU 8-2-0, 0-0
Baylor 6-2-1, 0-0
West Virginia 4-4-1, 1-0
Oklahoma State 5-2-2, 0-0
Iowa State 5-2-1, 1-0
Texas 5-2-2, 1-1
Texas Tech 6-0-1, 0-0
Oklahoma 3-3-2, 1-1
Kansas State 4-3-2, 0-1
Kansas 3-5-1, 2-1
No question that KU has had the toughest schedule.
I will guess that practice time (as regulated by the NCAA) is precious and with a young, inexperienced team, the great majority is spent practicing "team" play and learning the "system" and free throws are not the top priority; however, they do practice when they are not involved in the plays that is being taught. I understand that players are also "encouraged" to practice on their own as much as needed and when time does not count against official practice time; obviously the result hare great so far. This is from the after game interview...
Kansas junior forward Perry Ellis
On why you have shot free throws so well this year:
"I mean we have been shooting them on our own. When were not in on a play in practice, we go shoot some when we aren't involved so that's the key."
I posted the following on a different thread but it really shulld go here...
I think you are taking his comments out of context:
The comment about Manning was done before the game and I can see where he can go in for few minute to give Mason some rest, but the way the game was going, when either the team was playing so well ( fist half) that you don't want to disrupt the tempo, or the second half when it became a battle and you cannot throw an unproven player into a game that is becoming very close. Had the game been steadily in the 10 point range, I can see where he could have come in, otherwise Coach Self's explanation is certainly valid, wouldn't you agree?
As far as Jamari playing PG, here is the entire quote by Coach Self:
On sending the ball more often into the post:
"A lot of teams don't play that way. A lot of teams live and die by the jumper, driving it, spreading it; but that's the way we've always played. We've got to do some things to create driving lanes and things like that. We don't have an unbelievable driving team, but Wayne (Selden, Jr.) and Frank (Mason III) should be able to get better. Kelly (Oubre, Jr.) was really good tonight and will be able to help us in that regard. And playing Jamari (Traylor) at the 5, at least he's always going to be quicker than any 5 man he has. I've even thought about making him the backup point guard, I'm being dead serious, if we played him and he initiated the offense, there would be no one that could apply pressure because he could drive around anybody. Not be the point guard that comes up and sets it up, but just bring it in transition and do some things like that. We've got to become more creative because it's going to totally wear Frank down if he has to do everything every possession."
It is clear that he does not want to use him to bring the ball up court but to position him at times to initiate the offense at the half court from where he could draw his man way outside and open the middle and then use his quickness to drive to the basket or be unguarded. At least this is how I read it.
Coach Self often makes off the wall comments that you know he will never implement and are meant just to illustrate something that is possible but but by no means probable. Many people read the comments and say...hmmmm, maybe that could work, and others chose to take the comments out of context and characterize them as..."Absurd," "" it makes him look like an idiot, but I know that he doesn't mean it," " It is patently absurd."
The difference is that Coach Self is the most successful coach ever at KU, the most successful coach in college basketball in the last 10 years, a sure 1st vote future Hall of Fame Member and he sits on the sidelines racking up win after win, even with a young, inexperienced team playing the 4 toughest schedule in college basketball (as per KenPom) and playing 6 out of 9 games away from home ,while the critics sit in front of a computer posting for the 30-40 people that regularly participate in this forum and do not even realize that their comments are more applicable to themselves than to coach Self.
Do I think Coach Self walks on water and never makes mistakes? Absolutely not. But given the choice, he will always have the benefit of the doubt, because he has probably forgotten more about basketball than we will ever know...as Coach Robert Montgomery Knight used to say. Now, if he tries to tell me what to do in my own field of expertise, then I would have a problem with that, but TTBOMK, he has never tried to tell anyone else how to do their own jobs.
As the expression goes...behind every successful executive there is a woman telling him he is doing it all wrong..and it could be extended to college sports or sports in general to say...behind every wildly successful coach there is a group of fans telling him he is doing it all wrong...and results? Are you talking about result? Who cares about results, as long as he is saying what I want to hear or implementing what I think is the best system, who cares about results...
This is not meant to be a personal attack on anyone and there is no malice aforethought intended. This is just my personal opinion but based on messages I get, I know I am not the only one that feels this way. A little civility towards our coach would go a long way.
I think you are taking his comments out of context:
The comment about Manning was done before the game and I can see where he can go in for few minute to give Mason some rest, but the way the game was going, when either the team was playing so well ( fist half) that you don't want to disrupt the tempo, or the second half when it became a battle and you cannot throw an unproven player into a game that is becoming very close. Had the game been steadily in the 10 point range, I can see where he could have come in, otherwise Coach Self's explanation is certainly valid, wouldn't you agree?
As far as Jamari playing PG, here is the entire quote by Coach Self:
On sending the ball more often into the post:
"A lot of teams don't play that way. A lot of teams live and die by the jumper, driving it, spreading it; but that's the way we've always played. We've got to do some things to create driving lanes and things like that. We don't have an unbelievable driving team, but Wayne (Selden, Jr.) and Frank (Mason III) should be able to get better. Kelly (Oubre, Jr.) was really good tonight and will be able to help us in that regard. And playing Jamari (Traylor) at the 5, at least he's always going to be quicker than any 5 man he has. I've even thought about making him the backup point guard, I'm being dead serious, if we played him and he initiated the offense, there would be no one that could apply pressure because he could drive around anybody. Not be the point guard that comes up and sets it up, but just bring it in transition and do some things like that. We've got to become more creative because it's going to totally wear Frank down if he has to do everything every possession."
It is clear that he does not want to use him to bring the ball up court but to position him to initiate the offense at the half court from where he could draw his man way outside and open the middle and then use his quickness to drive to the basket or be unguarded. At least this is how I read it.
Are we the only people that think KU does not have length? As far as I am concerned. KU is undersized at the PG, PF and C, and has decent size at the SG and SF. The Utah Coach and players seem to think that we have length and are physical...
POSTGAME QUOTES UTAH
Utah head coach Larry Krystkowiak
On the differences between the defensive strategy from first half to the second half:
"We ran some different plays in the second half. I think we had more movement with pick and rolls, and got the ball bouncing a little bit more. We were pretty stagnant in the second half, credited to a lot of their length."
On the last play of the game:
"Well they're physical. It was the same play we tried running earlier in the game, we needed a three. **
Utah freshman forward Jakob Poeltl
On Jamari Traylor's and Cliff Alexander's physicality:
"I feel like I didn't have many problems with how physical they were. I just wasn't able to get my shots were I wanted them. Part of it was me, and bad offensive execution by all of us on the team."
On playing two Kansas teams, Wichita State and KU:
"Kansas is a more physical team and Wichita State is more offensively-minded and execute better on defense. They were very disciplined and solid. Kansas has some great individual players that are very strong and physical. "
A quick note on Perry. Yes, part of it was having to shoot over a 7 footer, but the main reason is that after his hot start he was doubled teamed the rest of the way. This is from the press conference:
Kansas junior forward Perry Ellis
On the nine quick points early in the game then getting doubled teamed the rest:
"They defintely threw some double teams and stuff. They were a lot more aggressive but all that matters is we came out with the win. That's all that I am happy about."
Keep in mind that KU is still learning the system and it it nit only early in the season, but KU has played 3 home games and 6 games away from AFH. Other than the "touring" teams that travel the country taking beatdowns for a payout, I cannot think of another team that has played so few home games.
I agree with the story that the way tickets are distributed is a recipe for no-shows, particularly when tickets are "free;" no financial loss if you just skip the game and waste the ticket. If tickets were distributed on game-to-game basis 3 days before the game, or tickets are not free, the problem goes away.
Like I said before, KU will not lose at the free throw line this year. This is the best free throw shooting KU team I have seen in as far as I can remember.
Here is on list of the 20 hottest female sports reporters ↗. Holly Rowe does not make the list. Look at #14, for a minute I thought she was posing in front of a picture of Perry Ellis...
"There are a lot of ways to interpret what the stat means. @Jesse-Newell has said he thinks it denotes toughness, guys hanging in there and gutting out wins. I interpret it to mean just the opposite."
And this defines the fallacy of the approach. Math, and by extension statical analysis, are by definition "exact sciences " and as such, the results are what they are, unbiased and not open to interpretation. The fact that you see it the exact opposite than Newell would indicate that it is not the result of an objective approach but a subjective and biased one and hence, open to interpretation. An interesting excessive, no doubt, but a pretty useless one nonetheless.
Poythress is a junior with good deal of experience something that UK will miss. If you look at the better recent UK teams, at crucial times it was the upperclassmen that bailed them out.
I think you are giving too much credit to a pretty useless "statistic." By definition, luck is something that cannot be calculated or predicted, so when some body quantifies it, it is by definition an oxymoron. Lucky wins are those won by 1 point by a half court shot as time expires, wining by 5, 6, 7, 8 or 9 point does not fall in the category of "lucky."
you wrote...
**What a higher luck stat indicates is that you're playing a lot more close games and winning. In other words, if you win a lot of games rating high in the 'luck' category, it points to being fundamentally less sound. You're winding up more lucky than good because actually good teams wouldn't be playing as many close games to begin with. The best teams are the ones that consistently blow out their opponents, right? **
This is a fundamentally flawed premise because it assumes that you are playing the same competition and luck is allowing you to win. 20-30 years ago a game between a major conference program and Mid-major was a one sided affair; now...not so much and mid-majors beating a major conference team are common place; scores are getting closer and closer every year a result of the parity that exists in the sport . If KU switches to an all punch bag schedule, they would win by 20+ points most every game or it could switch to a tougher schedule (like now) where it still wins by virtue of being the better team, but score margin would only be in the single digits, does this mean that KU is lucky? You are saying that KU is not a good team because it has played (and won) several close games...and good teams do not play close games...you don't consider that KU is actually winning because it is better than the other team, be that by 5 points or 10 points or 20 points but better nonetheless. I don't think this is correct. What you are saying is that every game that is won the single digits category is a lucky win and I personally think this is not correct.
I had a Jaybate-like long post with a technical explanation of my position but I lost it when looking for an emoji icon. Oh well...probably not appropriate for sports forum anyway. Too lazy to re-write it.
KenPom quit his day job and now he does full time predictions and needs to spice up his web site with a little fluff and controversy. I liked him better when he did it as a hobby.
...didn't you hear? Brent Masburger referred to Holly Rowe as "smoking hot, " at the end of the KU-Baylor broadcast and one week after he made the comments at the Alabama game that got him in trouble.
So...every time yo win by 10 or less, luck is involved? I don't buy it. When two disparate teams play a large margin could be expected; however, when two top 20-30 teams play the result will usually be a lot closer, normally single digits; good teams manage to win the close games. With parity in college basketball the big blow outs are now the exemption and not the rule and on any given day, any team can beat any other team; ask Nebraska and Michigan.
If you know statistics, you know that you can manipulated them to appear to show anything you want, but upon closers scrutiny you can see the flaws in the hypothesis. Will Rogers famously said: "there are lies, damn lies and statistics.." Sometimes I believe statistician have too much time in their hands and a desire to come up with something new/different and hence draw conclusions that are really meaningless, such as this one, this early in the season. MIT graduate and prediction pioneer Jeff Sagarin has a disclaimer attached to his numbers that indicates that it takes a number of games before the model reaches "steady state" and early prediction are meaningless. Just my opinion and I could be wrong.
Texas is really good this year and the front line is not only big but very capable as well, and the team as whole, a lot better that Iowa State; I would be happy if we split with them . Also, I don't understand why people underestimate Barnes; he is a pretty decent coach and has been successful everywhere he has coached. Keep in mind that coaching basketball at football crazy Texas is like coaching football at basketball crazy KU. The only poor coach in the conference is Scott Drew.
I am not sure I agree that we are 0-1 against top 25 teams. Michigan State was top 20 when KU played them and dropped because of the loss to KU; it still is #23 in the Coaches Poll. Florida was top 10 for the first two weeks and even when they are 4-4, their loses are to Miami,. North Carolina, Georgetown and KU, all top 25 teams; they are still getting votes in the polls and will likely be top 25 once they get some of the injure players back. Georgetown is in my opinion a legitimate top 20 team and it lost to Wisconsin, Butler and KU; they have received votes in both polls and are currently a borderline top 25 team. I have no doubt that y mid-season, all three teams will be top 25.
The Utah game should be a good test against an opponent that has some of the component that give KU match up problems.
If you read my posts, I have written many times that WSU is a really good team and the real deal; most recently after their game against Utah. I have nothing but respect for the team. However, the program has to show consistent excellence and so far we don't know what is going to happen in another year or two. Remember when they used to be good in the 80's and then they disappeared from the scene and asked to stop the series with KU because of the beat downs they continued to take?
WSU is the second coming of Butler, remember them? They went to the Final Four two years in a row and there were hot...and now they are an also run and an afterthought.
Sure, I would like to see a game against them, but from KU's perspective and under the terms WSU wants (home and home) it does not make sense for KU, not financially and not PR-wise. KU has little to gain and a lot to loose, on the other hand, win or loose is is nothing but upside for WSU.
I don't agree that Svi has a problem with physicality of the game; like Coach Self said, he has been playing against grown men in the Euro Leagues for the last couple of years. The problem with Svi, IMHO, is the speed of the game; the American game is much faster paced than the Euro game.
Interesting that two coaches leave in a 3 year period for lesser programs. Gordon leaving for the NFL and the pasting by OSU probably had something to do with it.
I am not sure why you consider it an underwhelming performance. GU is a legitimate top 20 team, playing at home, with some favorable match ups and was a 2-1/2 point favorite. I think it was gutsy performance by KU, particularly when you consider how physical GU is and how the refs heavily favored them.
I agree that turnovers are an issue, I have posted after every game this concern but the team is making progress. Once again,. KU is playing a tough schedule and last night's win was very good one not only because KU was able to win though adversity but because we saw what a confident Green can do and also saw Oubre show what he all thought he could do with his athleticism and long arms, slash and rebound in traffic.
