I would not go as far as saying that this team can get beat by "ANYBODY." I would say that a good team has a good chance of beating KU if KU plays a sloppy game. All the KU loses have been to teams that were or still are in the top 25; in fact 4 of those were to teams that were or still are in the top 10.
JayHawkFanToo
13427 posts
This girl throws throws pretty darn well, and even is she could not throw...who would care?
I believe Bilas mentioned in one of his articles that Wichita is being judged based on its record (eye test) and KU on its Strength of Schedule (substance test), one is fleeting the other is not...which one would you rather have?
The objective computer rankings do not like Wichita and their current ranking is artificially buoyed by the no losses; one loss in their tournament and they drop like a rock. It is the equivalent of going up like a 747 or a helium filled balloon; one pin prick will bring one down while the other will not even feel it.
The NBA has worked hard for the last few years to change its image and provide what they call "family friendly" entertainment; Stern's parting gift. Fighting and rough play has been almost eliminated with heavy fines and suspension...even flopping is penalized (something the NCAA should do) with fines, The cost of admission to NBA games is now high enough that most of the riff-raff is kept out
I will guess that like me, you are of the older generation that does not "get" hip hop; however, the younger generation does. I live in pretty affluent and yes, minority challenged (???) Johnson County, and all the younger kids are big on hip-hop and I would not call them thugs. I guess our parents did not get rock-n-roll, and their parents did not get Elvis either...oh well.
I really hope Joel comes back. Will he come back? No.
Let's look at the pros and cons of his decision.
Coaching: KU - very good, NBA - better position coaches that will work exclusively with him. Advantage NBA
Trainer: KU - Hudy, the best in college basketball. NBA - Comparable or better trainers with the best facilities in the business. Advantage NBA
Competition: KU - Excellent competition, particularly in the Conference. NBA - better competition in practice alone and best competition in the world during games. Advantage NBA
Time: KU - Has to complete school work to be able to to play. NBA - 24/7 dedicated to improve his skills. Advantage NBA
Wear and tear: KU - 30+ games season. NBA - season has 3 times more games. Advantage KU
Medical Care: KU - Excellent, best local and occasional national specialists. NBA - Best specialists in the world. Advantage NBA
Security: KU - NCAA sponsored but limited insurance. NBA - guaranteed rookie contract, pretty much set for life. Advantage NBA
Income: KU - nominal payment for expenses plus room, board and tuition. NBA = at least $4.5 Million first year increasing every year for 3years. Advantage NBA....game, set match.
Your recollection could be better than mine. I recall many posters not being sold out on Tarik; I was one of them. He came with a reputation of having an attitude problems which fortunately we have not seen at KU; in fact, it has been quite the opposite. Having said that, I really don't recall any posters saying "pretty nasty" things about him; perhaps you are thinking of the other forum where most of us used to post.
Tarik has been consistently inconsistent with a few big games and many more forgettable ones. As I mentioned in a different post, he could end up having a Jeff Graves like game, but the more likely scenario is that he, along with Jamari, will contribute solid minutes backing up Embiid. Maybe his bigger contribution has been off the court and during practice where he has been a leader and a mentor to the younger players. He seems to be a pretty decent individual and you have to respect anyone that finishes a degree in 3 years, in an age when many kids with no outside distraction take 5 years.
I am not sure if he has a long term future in the NBA. With luck and being in the right place at the right time might earn him some role playing time in the League; after all, many players with less talent have stuck around for a few years.
Parity in basketball has resulted in most every team, at least in the major conferences have multiple loses by the time the conference schedule is played out. The days when a half dozen teams dominated the landscape are gone. Look at how many different teams have been ion the top 5, 10, 25. Look at the pre-season top 25:
Kentucky - Now 25
Michigan State - Now 22
Louisville - Now 11
Duke - Now 4
Kansas - Now 8
And look at the current top 5:
Florida
Wichita State
Arizona
Duke
Virginia
Wichita State is an aberration and the result of a very weak schedule and playing in a very weak mid-major conference. No team in a major conference has gone unbeaten since the 1976 Indiana Team.
KU has had the toughest schedule in college basketball and by many accounts, the toughest in 20 years. Also, many analyst have pointed out, KU has enough good wins and not really a bad loss, to be considered a #1 seed. Most of the so called "bracketologists" have KU as a #1 seed, even after the loss to OSU, and many feel that with Embiid out( provided he returns for the conference tournament) even if it loses one of the next two games, it would not affect the seeding; its strength of schedule is that good.
Smart did not need to flop last year because he was bulldozing opponents with impunity and getting all the calls. He supposedly came back to college to improve his 3 point shot and it did not get better, in fact it got worse. On top of that the new contact rules dictated that he could no longer run roughshod over opponents and so he deiced to give himself an edge by flopping with unsavory gusto.
As a result of his frustration, he is now one of the more if not the most hated player in college basketball, at least he is in our conference.
How this will translate to the NBA is not known at this time. Like all entertainment, basketball (much like wrestling) needs good guys and "heels," although the NBA with its emphasis in "family entertainment" has, in the last few years, tried very hard to weed out all the "bad boys" and project a cleaner image. The day of the Rodmans and Laimbeers are largely gone, and even notorious bad boy Ron Artest changed his name and is pretty much a boy scout compare to the old days. although he occasionally throws a mean elbow. The closest we have to a bad boy is DeMarcus Cousin. This trend does not favor the image that Smart has acquired.
The most we can say about Tarik is that he is consistently inconsistent. He has had very good games and others in which he got 3 or 4 quick fouls and disappeared.
He reminds me a little (or a lot) of Jeff Graves. He took the place of the injured Wayne Simien and had arguably his best game as a Jayhawk with 16 points and 16 rebounds in 37 minutes in the finals against Syracuse, and at times, he kept KU in the game; unfortunately, we all know how that game ended. Maybe Tarik will have s similar game, although he has not played nearly as much as Graves had played towards the end of the season.
If you read my post, I said "barring injuries" which in this case means adding one player to the mix. IMHO, by tournament time KU will have the current starting five with Embiid back, and the the players off the bench will be Black, Traylor, Mason and Frankamp/Green depending on the match-ups. This is a larger rotation that he likes. Now, I am not saying that other players will not see playing time, what I am saying is that the players I mentioned will get the great majority of it.
I like Lucas a lot and I wish he would have had more playing time during the season as we all saw a lot of potential, He might play some the next two games while Embiid is out, but unfortunately I just don't see him getting meaningful playing time once Embiid is back. Now, if Embidd does not come back...all bets are off.
WSU 31-0 record has happened not because they have a superior team that dominates. Yes, they have a very solid, experienced, well coached team that plays very well together, does not beat itself and does not have a superstar they defer to...but the main reason they are undefeated is because they played a super soft schedule. Does anyone think that if WSU would have played the same schedule as KU (or any other top ten team) they would be unbeaten? Absolutist not; they would have as many if not more loses than KU.
WSU will have a high seed in the tournament, likely a #1, so the first two games they will win comfortably, but after that, we will see how good they are, particularly now that they have a huge target on their backs and they are no longer the underdog chasing the top teams but the team being chased instead.
I respectfully disagree with you.
You are using the same logic that Travis Ford used to justify Smart's comments about Coach Self after the games. I am sorry but I don't buy it; to me it seems more like a CYA effort than an attempt to find out why Smart made those comments.
The comments were made on national TV so there is no argument about them. The issue at hand is this:
Did the coaching staff indeed showed some alleged comments made by Coach Self?
or...
Did Smart just heard what he wanted to hear (nothing new there) and made the comments without substantiation?
The end result is that either the coaching staff or Smart are at fault. It is one of the other, you cannot have it both ways. Ford's comments were a poor attempt to deflects responsibility from either himself and/or his staff, or once again, trying to cater to Smart. Dana O'Neill had it right, Ford refuses to take any responsibility for the programs woes or act pro-actively to guide his players.
As far s the comment made by the fan at Texas Tech. fan, you must be the only one that does not know what was said. There is none, zero, nada, zilch, nil evidence that a racial slur was used; that part was made up solely by Smart and again, he was let off with a slap in the wrist and Ford did his best to justify the entire fiasco, Be assured that had OSU not preemptively suspended Smart, the conference would have likely done so for a considerably larger period. Ford's reputation has taken a gigantic hit this season.
Coach Self has said numerous times on his radio show and at press conferences that by tournament time he likes to have the team down to 7 and no more than 8 players taking the bulk of the minutes; although in all fairness, earlier this season he said the number might be higher this season because of all the available talent. He has always been this way and I just don't see him changing now; the top 7-8 players we have seen in the last month (barring injuries) are the ones that will likely see the lion's share of minutes.
In this respect, he is no different than most other coaches; I have heard/read similar comments from a number of other top coaches as well.
Ford has and always will have burr up his nether region because he knows that he was and will always be Oklahoma State's second choice. If I remember correctly, this is not the first time he has bad mouthed Coach Self; in this regard he is no different than Scott Drew.
As I mentioned before. even if he personally did not do the "showing," of Coach Self's alleged words, there is no way that it would have been done without his permission.
Very well said.
You are most welcome.
Considering that KU has won more games than any other team since Coach Self has been here, I would say that he has done pretty well "motivating his teams. Most any other coach in America wishes they could do that well. You can say they had more talent but it is not true, Coach Self has simply gotten more from his player that other coaches have. Look at other teams that have had equal or better players than KU, like Baylor and Texas in the conference alone, and none have had the success KU has.
@REHawk Speaking of coaches having to deal with Marcus Smart, last night I viewed Travis Ford in a much better light, after his favorable postgame words about the Jayhawks.
I don't understand why you would. Smart clearly indicated that the coaches showed them articles with Coach Self alleged comments about cutting the nets. There is no way that assistant coaches would do this without Ford's knowledge and acquiescence. If a KU assistant coach would do something like this without permission, I would think he would be fired on the spot. Ford has badmouthed Coach Self before so this is not really surprising; I will guess that Ford resents that OSU fans would love to get rid of him and get Bill Self instead.
Kansas is no different than the majority of states that have a date by which a student has to be a certain age to attend specific grade. The rule is in place mostly so younger students will not be placed with older students. They tend to be very strict about it and you would need to show plenty of justification to override the rule...at least it is this way in the Olathe School District which conforms to State rules.
I have mentioned a couple of times that Virginia is the sleeper team this year. They have their best teams since the days of Ralph Sampson, and (for the older folk) Barry Parkhill before that. The are definitively and Elite 8 team and a legitimate Final Four contender as well.
Abou-who-gives-a-crap is not a sports writer. he is an op-ed write that obviously is outside his element writing about sports and as a KC star writer he has no clue as to what winning is all about. The article clearly show he knows nothing about competing and winning ins sports; Coach Self knows.
He is the KC Star writer that recently penned an article opposing the new proposed building for athletes. I find it hard to believe he is a KU graduate; he must have had some kind of traumatic experience to be so outspoken in his constant criticism of KU, particularly when it is on a subject in which he is not at all qualified.
This is one of those rare days when a KU graduate writes an inane article about KU basketball while Pat Forde, a MU graduate, writes an incisive article about the squid.
There are only so many dollars of disposable income available for entertainment and they are all pretty much taken by the existing franchises. KC and the metro area are not big enough to sustain that many franchises. There is big difference between selling out 1 or 2 NBA exhibitions games and selling out an entire basketball season.
IMHO, the KC metro area is a lot more inclined to college than professional basketball.
I don't believe Self ever said anything about cutting down the nets, at least that I know of. As usual, "not so" Smart is hearing voices in his head and hearing what he wants to hear.
Even BIlas commented last night that Smart was barely touched and went flying like he was hit by a car. Amazing that the refs are still buying his flopping.
KU is not a dirty team or a team that purposely fouls; how do you explain the huge discrepancy in fouls at the game? I can't.
I don't believe KC can support 3 major franchises, considering how much Sporting KC Soccer team has already grown.
Basketball is a game of match up in more ways than one. Gooden had the misfortune of playing for the wrong teams at the wrong times. His last stint with Milwaukee was the worst. He was starting to play very well and then management and coaching changes sent him to the bench and just about ended his career. He still has some BBall left on him and since the Wizards are going to the playoffs, it could help him revive his career.
Chalmers fell in the best possible situation, and now he starts for the current champions and has two NBA rings, Had he gone somewhere else, he might not have had the success he has had with the Heat so far.
Kentucky lost to Arkansas last night and got swept by them. I guess any team with "Kansas" in the name that beats Kentucky is a good thing.
On a related note, UK lead over KU in all times wins is now down to single digits, nine. Hopefully we can make up few more this year and catch them next year...it would be an epic "beatch slap" to Calipari and the UK fans would never forgive him for letting KU get the record.
You are looking at one small portion of the schedule for teams you mentioned and drawing conclusions that do not take into consideration the bulk of the schedule.
All I am saying is look at the entire body of work and not only the parts that reflect favorably on one team. Look at their record against top 25 or top 50 teams see how they performed. According to just about all ranking WSU has played no more than 3 top 50 teams and in many rankings BYU and Tennessee are not even in the top 50. According to the NCAA official RPI, only St Louis and BYU are in the top 50. Compare this to the overall records of the teams you mentioned and it is not even close.
This is the reason why the computerized rating have WSU lower than the "human" rankings. Sagarin has KU as #2 and WSU at #16. The computers do not care what name is attached to the record, they do not add points to a record just because it says KU or deduct points if it is WSU. The computers look at all the components and not just selected portions, and simply compare records against each other and the rest of the field. Some systems also look at specific parameters and come up with separate records. One of Sagarin rankings looks simply at wins and loses and WSU is obviously ranked #1 in this particular scenario; however, Sagarin will tell you this is not a good indicator of past or a predictor of future performance.
Look at this table that list a composite of all the rankings (60) in the land...
Now you see how all the objective computerized rankings have WSU ranked considerably lower than the subjective "human" rankings. Very interesting.
I am not saying that WSU chose this schedule or that it did not want to schedule stronger competition; I am sure they would have preferred a stronger schedule, but in the end, as the expression goes "it is what it is." Look at the non-conference schedule that Gonzaga (a comparable team) played last year and this year, it is night and day compared to the one WSU played this year. Hopefully, in the future WSU will be able to use this successful stretch and schedule better competition like Gonzaga did.
No question that WSU is a very good team, it has to be to be unbeaten at this stage, regardless of the competition. However, and once again, we don't know how good they really are because every game they have played (except for one) has been against inferior competition. I guess in a few weeks we will have an answer.
There is also the issue of scholarships available. We have 18 players in the team and only 13 scholarships are available. Manning, Self, Roberts, Garret and Wesley are not currently on scholarships.
The only senior on scholarship leaving is Tarik, that is one schoolie. If as expected Wiggins and Embiid leave that is two more for total of three
We have Michelson becoming eligible, but he is already on scholarship so its is a wash.
We have two new player coming Alexander and Oubre, so potentially there is one open spot for either Turner or Lyle but likely not both. If Embiid stays, there are no more scholarships available and we are done recruiting as none of the players on scholarships now would agree to give theirs up like Wesley did.
The remaining question is: what is the status of Andrew White? Is he staying or transferring? I don't have a clue.
Nice thread.
No question about it, WSU is penalized for being ina weak conference. But then, should they really be rewarded for winning, albeit consistently, against weak competition? I don't really have an answer to that.
Unfortunately the Big East is no longer an option and the new American Athletic Conference is now a BBall/FBall conference, so it is not an option either. I am not sure if there is a BBall only conference other than the Big East...tough spot for Wichita.
Wichita will be in a different position in this tournament. Last year they had nothing to lose and did not have much pressure on therm; this year they have the spotlight and a huge target on their backs and everybody is gunning for them.
BTW, I will be rooting for Wichita all the way unless they play KU; if they play K-State it will be a close call.
You pose a question that cannot be answered because the Automatic Qualifiers override the RPI in reference of who goes to the dance and many teams that should no go end up going. The committee gets to select only 36 teams, the others are automatic qualifiers regardless of record or RPI. In this case, the RPI is used for seeding only.
For example, say Grambling State wins the SWAC tournament, they would go to the NCAA even when they are ranked 351 out of 351 teams and have a 3-20 overall record. Their non-conference schedule could be the 12 teams ranked above them and they would still go dancing.
You posted less than half of the picture and expect to extrapolate the entire picture and when the more important half is missing. You did not even post what the records were for those non conference schedules; a 12-0 record would be completely different than a 0-12 record wouldn't it? But we do not have that information. In fact you data can be quite misleading because many teams from stronger conferences offset the conference games with a weaker non-conference schedule. Also, without looking at the entire schedule and the SOS value, the data you presented and as you presented it is not enough to make any kind of determination.
For example, you can have a Big 12 team play a weak non conference schedule and then play 18 pretty decent games during conference play. Would you say they are equivalent to a team from weak conference that plays the exact same non conference schedule and a weak conference schedule to boot, just by looking at the non conference schedule? I think not, although in the data format you presented they would be identical.
The numbers I posted for WSU are for their entire schedule, not part of it, and it shows that fully 27 of those games (both conference and non conference) were against teams ranked outside the top 100. I am going to guess that their non conference schedule, although not great, might actually be better that the conference schedule, but unfortunately, they play a lot more conference games so it carries a greater weight.
Does it make sense?
Personally, I believe that the system should be changed as follows:
Select the best 56 teams regardless of conference and automatic qualification.
Take the automatic qualifiers not selected above and add teams by rank until you have 32 teams.
Have these 32 team play 2 rounds and the top 8 are added to the first 56 to complete the field of 64. This gives even small school a chance to make it to the dance, and the final 64 are hopefully the top or close to the top 64 team in the Division 1. Many deserving teams are now left out because a weak automatic qualifier takes one spot.
Since many of the automatic qualifiers will be in the top 56, the second group could be cut to 16 and they would play just one game to join the top 56.
What this does is to make the automatic qualifiers that that are not in the top 56 compete for 8 spots instead of 32.
When we are young we THINK father knows everything.
As we get into our teens we BELIEVE father doesn't know anything.
As we get older and have kids of our own, we KNOW father did know everything after all.
I don't think Perry is going to the NBA quite yet. He does not have the build to play the 4 in the NBA and If he want to play there, he will have to learn to play the 3, which in some way might be his natural position. I will guess that next year he will split time with Alexander at the 4 and with Oubre at the 3. He has shown he has the range to shoot from outside, now he need to improve his range and drive to the hoop when necessary. Also. I believe it is important to hm and his family that he graduates and he can very well do that in 3 years as he is also an outstanding student. He will likely stay.
Selden is currently projected as a late first round pick. If he comes back, he can dominate at the 2 and work his way up to a lottery pick. My guess is he stays.
At the end of the season Wiggins is gone and Embiid is probably gone too.
Here is a pretty decent write up on the subject. I believe it covers most of the points in our own discussion.
If I were a betting man, I would guess that Embiid will leave at the end of the season. Way too much money at stake and as he saw, one injury could make the whole thing go away.
Turner would be a great fit at KU and I can see why he is covering all the bases. If Embiid leaves he comes to KU and teams up with Alexander, if Embiid stays he goes to the next best place; nothing lost visiting the program I believe is his first choice.
He might not do it voluntarily, the law (NCAA) might catch with him and take it away...and it would not be the first time either...:)
Keep in mind that out of 30 wins, 1 is a very good one against a legitimate top 25 St Louis team, 2 are against marginal top 50 teams, Tennessee and BYU both of which are currently in the wrong end of the bubble, and fully 27 wins are against teams outside the top 50. If selection day was today, only 1 team they have played would likely make it to the tournament.
The Missouri Valley conference is ranked #11 and the second ranked team behind WSU, Indiana State, is ranked #100 (Sagarin), the third team Missouri State is #142, the fourth team Illinois State #158 and so on. Of their 30 wins, the 18 conference wins are against teams ranked 100 or lower, and 16 of those are against teams ranked $142 or lower Other than the 3 teams I mentioned above, their non-conference team is not that much better.
Compare it the the #1 ranked Big 12 Conference which has had at least 7 (maybe even 8 ) teams ranked in the top 25. and at least 6 and possibly 7 other conference teams will be going to the tournament. All 6 KU loses are to top 25 teams, in fact, the 4 non-conference loses were to teams that at one point were or are in the top 10. The only team in the conference outside the top 100 is TCU and they have not won a single game in the conference; the next lowest ranked teams is Texas Tech. which is #74, that is 26 spots higher than the the top ranked team in the Missouri Valley other than Wichita.
WSU is not a bad team; I don't believe anyone is saying this. However, we really don't know how good they are because, other than a couple of games, they have not really played anyone. We all have our biases and we can spin it any way we can, but the numbers above are factual and hard to ignore, don't you think?
"*Both Florida and Kentucky are in contention for the 2013-14 SEC title."
For this to happen, Kentucky would have to win their last 4 games and Florida lose their last 3 games; this is just not going to happen. They play each other at Florida in the last game of the season. Florida has already beaten Kentucky at Kentucky by 10 points. For all practical purposes Florida has wrapped up the conference title.
Good points. As per Jeff Sagarin, last year Gonzaga SOS was #93 had 4 games against top 25 and 9 games against to 50 teams and had 2 loses heading to the tournament. Wichita State SOS is #128, has 1 game against top 25 and 3 games against top 50 teams and no loses. Gonzaga's non-conference schedule was stronger but much like WSU, the overall SOS was hurt by playing in a weak conference. Overall, their records are not that different.
By the way. Sagarin currently has KU as ranked #2 and WSU as #16; Iowa State is ranked #15 and ahead of WSU. Sagarin uses 3 methods including the PURE-ELO which is based solely on wins and loses and in that ranking WSU is obviously ranked #1 (KU is #6). The overall rating is a combination of the 3 methods and definitely a better predictor.
Ken Pomeroy now has WSU as #7 and KU as #8. I believe that since the last time I checked. KU went up and WSU went down. No question the computers are not too crazy about WSU; if WSU loses one game before the tournament, which is highly unlikely given the competition, they would drop at least 10 spots in the computer polls. Their game against Mo State should be interesting; they had to come back from a 16 point deficit at half time and finally won in over time in their previous game.
I watched the WSU-Bradley last night and Bruce Pearl, who was the analyst, mentioned that when WSU bigs were being pushed by Bradley, Bradley stayed in the game and once they stopped doing that, WSU took off. I just don't see WSU bigs being able to keep up with our front line, particularly in view of how well they handled Texas front line in the game in Lawrence.
Just my 2 cents.
I agree, I like our chances against Florida. In the previous game we spotted them 15 points in the first half and beat then by 9 in the second half.
KU has won (or tied) the second half of every game they have lost.
KU does not lose, they just run out of time. :)
I see where you are coming from but I don't necessarily agree with you. You are basing all the wins on WSU being unbeaten and ranked high. My point is that they are unbeaten because they have played weak competition. As far as I can tell, they have one good win against St Louis, which at this point seems to be the only team they have played that will make it to the tournament. Compare this with KU's competition, the majority of which will be dancing in March; likely 6 other teams just from the conference alone.
Now, the Big 12 is the top rated conference. At different times during the season, 7 teams have been ranked in the top 25. Of course, once conference play started, they beat each other up and out of the top 25. This is the equivalent of a boxer with a 29-0 record that has fought one decent opponents and the bulk of the record is built beating up chumps.
I am not saying that Wichita is not good, but in the Big 12, they finish middle of the pack at best. I can see them sweeping TCU and maybe Tech, although Tech has played tough at home lately. The rest of the games are probably splits and maybe losing both to ISU and a healthy OSU. Again this is just my opinion.
WSU is a well disciplined, super solid team that will not beat itself. We will see how good they are after the Sweet 16. Let;s face it, the first two games for a #1 seed are pretty much academic, although as we know all too well, upsets do happen...it's all about match ups and WSU is the type of team that traditionally gives KU fits. I think it is highly unlikely that KU and WSU meet before the Final Four, particularly if they are both top 2 seeds; however, I would love to see a Final Four game with them so we can exact a little payback for the 1 point loss in '81 in the "Battle of New Orleans."
Florida is being overlooked and may end up being the sleeper. Lunardi has Arizona as the overall #1 seed based on their win at Colorado....really?
I think you missed my point. What I was trying to say, apparently not well enough. is that one or two successful season do not result in a recruiting bonanza. What can it be more successful than back top back trips to the finals with one of the top coaches in the land, and yet no 5 star recruit resulted from that. Yes. you will have the small programs that have occasional outstanding seasons but the Powerhouse programs do not come from the smaller conferences, they come from the big ones. I mentioned the history to illustrate what the pattern has been to date and the obstacles that WSU faces.
Every Division 1 coach recruits 5 star players, but most will tell you that they are just going to the motions since the chance of getting one, not being in power conference, are slim to none. As long as WSU is the MV, the chances of getting 5 star players are very small. Butler finally moved from the Horizon to the A10 to get better recruits...and then lost Stevens; tough break. It is difficulty for K-State, a programs with a very good basketball pedigree and playing in power conference, to recruit with Kansas in the neighborhood. Thinks how much more difficult is going to be for WSU to get 5 star players. I went clear back to 2007 and there is not one 5 star recruit that signed with a school that is not in a power conference. Yes, I am sure that Marshall will go after 5 start players but the chance of actually getting one is very slim.
I am not putting WSU down, they are an absolutely solid team, but you also have to look at their record in the context of their schedule, not who they wanted to play, but who they have actually played. I give you 100 to 1 odds that if WSU played KU's schedule they would not have as good a record as KU has. In the last couple of years (other forum), I have mentioned on several occasions that Kansas is becoming the hotbed of basketball. Kansas is the only state with at least 3 Division 1 school to send every team to the tournament; this will be the third year (assuming K-State doe not blow it) that all teams make it. I do want every program in the state to be successful.
As far as playing better competition, you have to start like any business would; you make concessions until you get in the same footing. Recent success aside, WSU IS NOT in the same footing as KU, and trying to impose conditions (home and home games) from a position of weakness is foolish. If Marshal really wanted to play KU, he could accept a game at AFH and maybe one in Kansas City as a way to start the series, but insisting in home and home games, loudly and not nicely, turns people off and makes it impossible for KU to ever agree to it...maybe this is what he really wants, the issue rather than the game. As I have posted before, his talk resonates in other places but not in the state of Kansas or with the ultimate decision makers. At this point, there is very little upside and too much downside for KU to play Wichita, the opposite is true for Wichita.
KU does not need to worry about what seeding WSU gets; they need to worry about winning all games regardless of who the opponent is. Losing track of this will certainly result in an early exit.
Again, nice exchange of ideas.
Selden is quickly becoming a favorite. At the start of the season he was very reserved and business like and now, he is playing more relaxed and seems to be enjoying the game; his reaction in the Texas games is a classic. Maybe by the end of the season he will be this team's version of Kevin Young.
I generally like Fraschilla, I can't stand "mushed burger"
Did anyone watch the OSU game last night? Smart was wearing #43 instead of #33. Apparently his Jersey did not make it to Texas...talk about an equipment manager in trouble.
I respectfully disagree. If KU would have played WSU schedule I believe that it would likely be unbeaten, but more importantly, what do you think WSU record would be if it had played KU's Schedule?
KU - SOS = 1, toughest schedule of any school in 20 years, playing in the top ranked conference with 8 out of 10 teams with overall winning records and all in the hunt for a NCAA bid and 7 projected to make it.
WSU - SOS = 128, 11 ranked conference with only 4 out of 10 teams with winning records and only WSU projected to make it to the NCAA.
KU has played 17 games against top 50 teams and won 11 games, WSU has played only 3 and won all of them.
Now, let's look a the 3 WSU wins. St Louis is a very good win, no question about it, the other two are against Tennessee and BYU, both teams are now in the bubble and more likely will not make the tournament, which means that other than the automatic qualifiers from the smaller conferences (if any) that I did not bother to check, only 1 team,WSU played will make it o the NCAA Tournament. The majority of teams that KU played, on the other hand, will make it to the dance, including 6 from the same conference that KU has won running away from the field.
The computers look at the numbers objectively and most have WSU ranked between 8 and 18, and the ranking is predicated in one very important parameter, which is the zero losses; one loss and WSU drops dramatically in the computer rankings.
Last night after the game, ESPN had a comparison of the KU vs. WSU records, and the had one analyst advocating for each team, The showed two good wins for WSU, Saint Louis and Tennessee and they kind of laugh at the end, because Tennessee more likely than not, will not make it to the tournament. They also had Lunardi who indicated (if I heard right) that if KU runs the table and wins the Conference Tournament, he did not see how it could be denied a #1 seed. So much for that.
Now, for the second part of your post about WSU starting to compete for 5 star players, it is possible but unlikely and history is not on their side. WSU has had and up and down history; in 1965 they were ranked #1 and made it to the Final Four and then the programs went back to being average. In the early 80's under Gene Smithson WSU recruited players like Cliff Levingston, Antoine Carr, and Greg Dreiling (which later transferred to KU) and resulted in an Elite Eight appearance, and later Xavier McDaniel ,and those were some of the better years of the program. Probation and poor recruiting brought them back to their more normal status. Under former KU player Mark Turgeon, they had some good years including one Sweet 16 appearance but this is as good as it got.
Under Marshal they have continued to improve moving from the CBI to the NIT and then to the NCAA, and last year making it to the Final Four, their best season by far in a long, long time.
Now, how does it compare to other similar teams? Let's take Saint Joseph a very storied program similar to WSU although playing in better conference. In '03-'04 the team led by Delonte West and Jameer Nelson, playing in the decent A10 conference, went 27-0 during the regular season and after getting a bye in the Conference Tournament they lost to a good Xavier team. They did get the overall #1 seed and made it to the Elite 8 where they lost to Oklahoma State. Since then, do you know how many time they have made it to the NCAA Tournament? One time.
How about another very successful program, Butler that played in a comparable conference. They had many more recent NCAA appearance in the NCAA than WSU culminating in back to back trips to the Finals and then fell all the way to the CBI the year after that. They also had one of the better coaches in college basketball (and the one I had hoped would replace Bill Self when he retires), Brad Stevens. Much like St Joseph and VCU, and George Mason and many other programs, they were unable to capitalize on their success and attract higher ranked players; the best Butler could do was Rodnei Clark, a transfer from Arkansas.
As you can see, it is unlikely that WSU will attract 5 star players, when there are many other programs playing in better, stronger conferences with a lot more exposure that take the lion's share of potential recruits. Like Butler, VCU, St Joseph, George Mason and others, they will always play second fiddle to the bigger programs. When you think of Indiana basketball, is Butler the first team that comes to mind? No. How about Virgina and VCU or George Mason? Pennsylvania and St Joseph? Kansas and Wichita State? absolutely not; KU and KSU are the names that come up first. KU gets top ranked payer Andrew Wigging, WSU gets unranked little brother Nick Wiggins.
When you look a the 2014 class, most publications list only the top 30 or 40 and WSU is not in any of them. I found a couple that list the top 100 and the highest WSU ranking is #71. Likewise, WSU does not have any recruits among the 2014 top 150 in any publication.
WSU has assembled a solid core of unheralded players that developed nicely and they have a good number of them coming back next year. They are really good and do not beat themselves and will win the games they are supposed to win, but their ultimate ceiling is limited by their ability to play as a team. I will guess that Marshall will have good, not great season, next year and after that he will bolt to a bigger program.
I am sure that we probably disagree in number of issues, but this has been a good exercise and made me go back in time and refresh memories of years gone by. I hope other posters find the information interesting as well. I am sure there are a number of different opinions, but it is nice that we can all present and dicuss them in a civilized manner.
KU is currently ranked #5 in the AP poll, with Florida #1, WSU #2, Arizona #3 and Syracuse #4.
Now, the chance that Syracuse or Arizona go unbeaten the rest of the season is small as they will face decent competition, particularly Syracuse. Florida and WSU, on the other hand have a good chance of running the table because they play in weak conferences, particularly WSU.
If KU wins the regular Season and post season conference titles, I just cannot imagine not getting a #1 seed. specially if the other choice is Wichita State. This is what the committee would be looking at, according to Sagarin who has KU as # 2 and WSU as #17
SOS: KU =1, WSU = 128.
Against top 25: KU = 4-3, WSU = 1-0
Against to 50: KU = 10-6, WSU = 3-0.
Conf. Rank: Big 12 = 1, Missouri Valley = 11.
Conf. SOS: Big 12 = 1, Missouri Valley = 11.
RPI: KU = 1, WSU = 8
Although WSU is unbeaten, its record is built against weak competition, having played only 3 games against top 50 teams where KU has played 16. KU plays in the Top ranked Conference, WSU in the 11th.
Take a dozen teams from major conferences and have them play WSU schedule and they would all be unbeaten as well. This is reflected on the RPI which is (supposedly) used by the NCCA for seeding.
In general, the more objective rankings (computers) favor KU and they don't like WSU much. If you look at the composite of all rankings combined, KU is #2 and WSU is #9.
When we look a the entire picture in context, if selection day was today, KU should be seeded ahead of WSU. That's my story and I am sticking to it.
The only thing Lunardi has going for him is the huge ESPN audience. As a "bracketologist' he is middle of the pack at beat.
Yes, great game for TRob filling in for Aldridge. The monster block was a turning point in that game.
Marcus had a very dubious clear path foul called on him that was very costly. Kief is playing great and Marcus is making progress as well. They are combining for about 23 point and 10 rebounds per game, Ben McLemore started and played 36 minutes; his stats don't look that good but he is getting playing time because of his defense.
At KSU, Hartman was to basketball what Snyder is to football. He got a few outstanding players and a bunch of role players to perform, as a team, above their individual talent. I have great respect for both.
I am not sure I am ready to see Joel in a ballroom gown...in high heels. :)