Lol Petro just keeps blaming Vick for JJs car incident. And saying how Self bringing him back could lead to the rest of the team having discipline issues. Really just kind of a poor segment. When Petro gets on his soapbox, I usually change the station.
IMO, this is exactly the right move. Bringing back Vick on a short leash is better than adding a 5* recruit.
I listened to the Newell segment. All conjecture. Nothing concrete. Not like he heard something from a player. More Petro just trying to stir the pot, imo.
The team voted to let him come back. Bill said there will be rules and stipulations for his return. We were looking to add someone anyways, so pissing off players with playing time issues isn't any different than if we had recruited Langford.
I see no issues with anyone other than Vick and whether or not he becomes the player and teammate that he agreed to be this season. But his leash is probably amazingly short and if he even steps a little bit out of line, no doubt he is gone.
@JayHawkFanToo To be fair, that was the stream shared with ESPN3 usually and it was probably a very good recruiting tool for those other sports.
However, the in-kind broadcasting could be done reasonably well by journalism students for pennies on the dollar, IMO. I know high schools that film their own games using the students and the broadcasts are very impressive.
There is really no excuse to have KU BBall games blacked out in KC. At least not if the company you are going to use doesn't even give everyone access to that product. My biggest complaint was always that we never even had the option to get TWC/SPectrum.
Lakers can always tell him to go play Euro Ball and keep his rights.
Stanley, Kendrick or Bender?
At this point, I say Kendrick and let's run the damn ball. Let's shorten some games and keep our D off of the field.
Stanley just doesn't have the arm.
Bender has the arm, and I'd be interested to let him start again. But, my preference for a run-first offense leaves me wanting Kendrick to step up and be the man.
@justanotherfan Oh exactly right. And I'm ok with it. My point is just that we shouldn't assume Mitch isn't viewed as "competition" by players looking to come here and play right away.
@Woodrow A 4th year Mitch puts doubt in some heads I'm sure.
I never would have thought that Landen or Jamari would scare people off, but it sure felt like it did.
@Fightsongwriter I read that with Bob Davis doing the announcing in my head.
This is a year where we have misses I think. Hard to land guys when you have Big Dave, De Sousa and Mitch here.
It wouldn't surprise me to see us whiff on JRE simply because of depth. Of course, all of this depends on what his inner circle is thinking. And how he felt his USA Basketball Experience went.
Go back to 38 the spot. Ask for donations if you need to cover lost revenue. But put the games where everyone can watch them.
@BShark probably not, but it would also give them a chance to grad transfer later if we decided it was time to move on.
@HighEliteMajor he would have. But he isn’t worth more than the minimum salary based on demand at this point.
@KUSTEVE Imagine if he convinces 3 players to redshirt....
@KUSTEVE Bill has made it a routine of giving us a Christmas present late in the year. Guy always has an ace up his sleeve.
@kjayhawks I do think Sam could redshirt technically. He didn’t his first year. Would be crazy to have 3 redshirts... but not impossible. Self has to have a nonstop smile going right now. And, in theory, it would be smart for those three to redshirt and get their masters or have the option to be a grad transfer if that’s what they would like to do.
@KUSTEVE I would think so.
FWIW, I think Grimes will end up with minutes at PG now just to keep him on the floor. Which means a battle throughout the season between Moore and Dotson. Might be as simple as riding the hit hand for that day.
Easily the deepest team we have ever had under Self. I honestly don’t know what to do. Selfs biggest issue coaching this team will be finding minutes for everyone.
Garrett might even struggle to see the floor if he doesn’t get his jumper up to standards this summer.
My brain hurts thinking of the options. I would pay money just to watch practices this year. Might have two top 10 teams playing each other everyday at practice this year.
We only go 10 deep for sure. I’m interested to see the minutes distribution. Team is versatile as hell. Interested in what a 5 guard switch everything lineup would look like with Grimes, Vick, Garrett, K.J. and Cunliffe would look like. Won’t happen, but it’s there lol.
On the flip side, you can go BIG with Grimes, Vick, K.J., Bi Dave and Doke.
Uber fast/athletic/big with Dotson, Moore, Grimes, K.J. and De Sousa.
Defensive team with Grimes, Garrett, K.J., Dedric and Doke.
Possibilities are endless with this group. Chemistry is going to be the key. And I think we have enough role players and good passers/playmakers to make that a non issue.
This team has the potential to legitimately be the best offensive and defensive team in the country. I wonder what Vegas odds look like now. Kentucky moved into best odds after Reid Travis committed, but I bet this puts us back in first.
Props to Self for making this happen and the Vick’s for being willing to make this work. A motivated Senior Vick is as good as landing a 5 star recruit. At least, I sure hope so.
Best case scenario for everyone involved. Amazing. Happy to have him back under conditions. I expect a HUGE jump from him. A motivated Vick is scary.
Not to poke a hole in the bonus being given to the victim. I just don’t think he would get one and his contract would be the minimum which is like $25k a year.
If he is signed, he has a long road to the pros and won’t make hardly any money along the way. Most people have some argument saying he doesn’t deserve to make millions, but the only way he would ever do that is from actually make it to the MLB level. A long shot on its own. Which is a main reason that he isn’t worth signing from a business perspective. On the other hand, he would only ever make that kind of money if he earned it from a playing standpoint. And that would be years from now.
@HighEliteMajor I'd be ok with that being our thing.
But I'd rather just get a running QB and run the option out of the spread instead of that.
And, just throw out Navy as a success story for comparison in this case.
But Georgia Tech is a great look at it could possibly be here. And I definitely do love the higher floor of putting in that system. They've only missed two bowl games in 20 years.
I also think it takes away any possibility of ever winning a NC. Probably even takes away any chance of being a top 10 team ever again. Personally, I could live with it. But, I think there are probably some football die hards that wouldn't.
Still excited to see Nova come to the Fieldhouse.
Other notes:
I expect Michigan State to struggle, but they should be a tough game that early in the season. I don't know that they finish in the top 25 though.
Nova will be solid, but losing your 4 best players isn't easy unless you are bringing in 3 new transfers and 4 new 5 star recruits. I think they are probably a team ranked 10-15 at the end of the season. Feel like a lot of people expect Quinerly to be a stud immediately, and I'm just not so sure about that.
Kentucky is still a mystery. They lost their two best defensive players in Vanderbilt and Gabriel, so I expect them to still struggle on defense mightily. Adding Travis really didn't change that, as he was an average defender himself and an absolutely terrible rim protector. Probably a team that struggles early and then switches to a zone and finds success. Despite Cal saying he hates when other teams play zone... Yet he does it quite often.
@jayballer73 Cunliffe, Dedric, KJ and Moore will all be in their 3rd or 4th years. Doke in his 3rd. Mitch in his 3rd.
That's 6 guys that have plenty of experience.
Then you add a Sophomore Garrett in that group and a 2nd year De Sousa and all of a sudden this team doesn't seem so young.
To me, it is the perfect balance of youth and experience. If Bill could keep a balance like this, I'd be pretty happy.
@BShark I mean, even Luinstra will be able to hold his own at practice I think.
But yea, EJ is the type of guy that could find his way into minutes by his 3rd or 4th year.
I forgot about the walk-ons. Some seriously quality guys and an underrated part of this incoming class.
KState would get picked up by a major conference at this point, imo. I could definitely see them moving to the Pac 12 just to get the KC market.
This is a tough hire and a tall task for anyone we bring in. On top of everything football that they will have to do, I expect them to have to make a hire for almost every sport. Including Men's Basketball, providing Bill sticks to his word of retiring around 60. A big gamble for an AD who is comfortable where they are.
@BShark Oh he's pumped. He has never had length like this before. I said it a while ago, but I almost expect this team to lead the nation in blocked shots this year. Bill will have this group playing top 5 defense by conference play, no doubt about it.
I really think this is the start of his big legacy sealing run. He may very well win 2 NCs in the next 4 years with how this roster is set up. I'd pick us to be the favorites this season, and then in 2 or 3 once Garrett, Dotson and Big Dave are the team leaders.
This team is built to win it all. Doke and Dedric combo is going to be down right dirty.
Wish the Conference would have penalized them more. Complete shutout of games for years, no TV revenue, etc.
A lot of people to blame here.
@Crimsonorblue22 I'm fine with him. Just needs to be on a short leash and we need to make that known up front.
This is the type of thing that could literally happen to any guy in high school now, thanks to cell phones and immaturity.
@wissox as I said, I am torn on the issue. To me, it's like K is a realtor and he sold you this house on the fact that it had an amazing view and it would appreciate in value because of the great view. Little do you know, the realtor is trying to get the land across the street rezoned to be residential and convinces someone to build a giant house on it and it completely blocks your view and literally overshadows your house.
I'd be a little bit pissed about it at first, no doubt about it. But, at the end of the day, my house probably appreciated in value because the new house that got built was so nice. And it certainly does me no good to go running my mouth now. It's already said and done.
@JayHawkFanToo I'm torn on it. Bagley signed in August. Carter couldn't even get out of that scenario if he wanted to, as no doubt he had taken aid over the summer. And no doubt that he was told he would be the go to player in the post. Once K knew he had him with no possibility of escaping, he brought in Bagley. I doubt there was mention of Bagley to the Carter's during the recruiting process, even though K must have known that this was going on behind the scenes. And that, to me, is wrong and a bold faced lie.
However, you shouldn't be complaining like this after the fact. You were just a top 10 pick and now will be a millionaire. K apparently did right by you in the long run. He didn't hurt your draft stock or future. Your growth on defense sounds like a direct correlation to this scenario. And, finally, practicing with an elite level talent like Bagley every day is going to make you better than him not being there.
@justanotherfan If he can't show improvement this year he has to go. Because then we will end up with too many JUCO guys and scholarship numbers will be out of whack all over again with the new head coach.
Honestly, the time to fire him is mid-year this season if you're going to do it. From there, you can be the first player in the new HC sweepstakes with plenty of cash to throw at your top candidate. You can get ahead of the rest and have a new HC before the bowl season is over.
My personal preference would be someone with success at a mid-major. Even more specifically, whoever we feel is the best candidate in the MAC would be my first choice. Jason Candle is an obvious choice if he puts up another big season. At 38 years old, he could be a long-term hire, potentially.
Hell, Cal just threw Vanderbilt and Wenyen to the curb to land a guy. No way Herro is happy right now.
Funny funny stuff.
@BShark Beaty seems like he got this job failing upwards lol. Like he's George Costanza or something. He brought a calzone to his interview with Zenger and that was it.
I'm also scared to give Beaty another recruiting cycle if it is just going to be JUCO heavy again.
I could be talked into two more seasons of Beaty. But it has to be a significantly better product this season for me to buy that. I don't even mean wins necessarily, but more competitive games.
Not a single one of the losses last year was a one score game. That would be a start.
@Texas-Hawk-10 I don't think you're crazy or anything for thinking it.
It just seems very unlikely. Just not a norm for the profession. These guys put together staffs of guys they know and trust. And your OC is usually your right hand man.
The only way I see that scenario happening is if we hire a guy who calls his own plays.
@Woodrow I would be shocked if someone came in and didn't bring their own guy in to be OC.
Beaty being fired and Hull becoming OC with a new HC seems like a pipe dream. I could see him still being an assistant, but not at the level of OC.
@JayHawkFanToo That payroll figure I posted was for the team they would have if they just kept everyone. I posted it, like you asked.
I don't think that management sucks, per se. I think ownership has limitations. And I think Dayton made great moves in his first 2 years of his time in KC.
I also don't think that a WS win should mean we don't look at managment's decisions. Essentially every move made isn't able to be analyzed for 6 years. We are seeing what bad decisions 6 years ago look like today. And it is clear that we have been unable to produce a major league product through either the draft or poor development.
@dylans I think everything you said is pretty spot on.
HighEliteMajor said:
@Kcmatt7 Man, it's amazing that the Royals actually made the World Series twice with the level of incompetence you describe. Are so intent on here on being critical that you ignore that Dayton Moore gave this city two world series appearances and a world series title, after 30 years of virtually nothing? He knows the path. He's proven it.
Aren't you the person who usually gets upset when people tell you not to criticize Bill Self?
Bill Self won a NC for the first time in 20 years. Yet you criticize him. Despite proving it year in and year out. Bill's down year is still winning the conference.
Dayton's down year is being the worst team in baseball.
I think I can be critical of him for that.
@JayHawkFanToo He made that good decision. It was one of the best trades of all time, ever.
But winning the lottery once is more of an outlier than proof. He has done nothing consistently well.
@HighEliteMajor My point is that he didn't develop a single player in that trade. And that I don't trust him to develop anyone in the future since he has proven he can't do it now over a 10 year stretch.
Call it whatever you want, but the truth is that Dayton is unable to develop Major League talent. And without someone else doing it for him, he never makes a World Series.
!0_1530024038066_upload-61df3c42-25c5-433b-b723-222c9e1bfa5b ↗
There is missing picks in the draft, and then there is literally not producing a single pro baseball player with your first pick since 2007.
You also have to take into consideration that Dayton had scouting notes from Braves scouts still when he first got here and hit on Hos, Moose and Montgomery. But two years removed from the Braves organization and he hasn't produced a single Major League player that is still with the ball club today. You say that it is hard to hit on picks. But 21 of 30 teams have been able to hit on their first pick in a draft since 2009 and still keep that player on their team today. 15 teams have hit on two or more players who are still on their team. 4 of the 9 teams that have not hit on a pick actually have winning records, but mainly from major trades that have stocked their farm system even more or they are the Yankees. (Who hit on Judge in the compensatory part of round 1, so I did not count him). Jose Fernandez's death is the reason the Marlins do not have one. I'll let you look at the data below:
!0_1530030116674_upload-3f9b7fa6-d30e-4f78-91ed-fab9b13ffd75 ↗
In the graft below, I put together an overlaying graph that shows a pretty good correlation between hitting on draft picks and current wins this season. As you can see below, there are a few outliers. But for the most part, if teams hit on their first picks, they typically are winning more games.
!0_1530030080636_upload-c46b2635-3b56-41e7-9ef2-f1dd12180e52 ↗
As you can see, the Royals have not hit on anyone. That means they are not developing talent as well as their peers. They are missing on the draft more than their peers. And their current record shows exactly that.
I'm very confident that I could do the same thing with teams carrying dead money and results would come out similar. Meaning, the Royals are also not utilizing their payroll EVERY year.
Pos Name Salary
C Salvy 8,700,000.00
CF Cain 13,000,000.00
1B Hos 21,000,000.00
3B Moose 5,500,000.00
4OF Dyson 3,750,000.00
SS Esky 2,500,000.00
LF Gordo 20,000,000.00
DH Bonifacio 561,900.00
2B Merrifield 569,500.00
RF Myers 4,500,000.00
SP Duffy 14,000,000.00
LR Junis 554,250.00
CL Herrera 3,456,625.00
SU Finnegan 577,500.00
SP Odorizzi 6,300,000.00
SP Montgomery 611,250.00
SP Lamb 545,000.00
SP Manaea 550,000.00
Total 106,676,025.00
Teams Total WAR Players
Arizona 24.6 AJ Pollock 19.6 WAR Archie Bradley 5.0 WAR
Atlanta 0 None
Baltimore 36.2 Dylan Bundy 6.4 WAR Manny Machado 29.8 WAR
Boston 7.1 Matt Barnes 1.9 WAR Andrew Benintendi 5.2 WAR
Chicago Cubs 38.3 Javy Baez 8 WAR Albert Almora 3.7 WAR Kris Bryant 21.4 WAR Kyle Schwarber 3.3 WAR Ian Happ 1.9 WAR
Chicago White Sox 5.3 Tim Anderson 5.3 WAR
Cincinnati Reds 0 None
Cleveland Indians 21.8 Francisco Lindor 20.4 WAR Tyler Naquin 1.4 WAR
Colorado Rockies 19.2 Tyler Anderson 5.8 WAR David Dahl 1.2 WAR Jon Gray 5.8 WAR Kyle Freeland 6.4 WAR
Detroit 0 None
Houston 46.5 George Springer 18.5 WAR Carlos Correa 19.5 WAR Alex Bregman 8.5 WAR
Kansas City 0 None
LA Dogers 14.8 Corey Seager 13.7 WAR Walker Buehler 1.1 WAR
LA Angles 60.7 Mike Trout 60.7 WAR
Miami 0 None (Jose Fernandez Death)
Milwuakee 0 None
Minnesota 14.4 Kyle Gibson 7.4 WAR Byron Buxton 7.0 WAR
NY Met 10.6 Brandon Nimmo 3.5 WAR Michael Conforto 7.1 WAR
NY Yankees 0 None
Philly 10.3 JP Crawford .7 WAR Aaron Nola 9.6 WAR
Oakland 7.5 Matt Chapman 7.5 WAR
Pittsburg 0.3 Austin Meadows .3 WAR
Seattle 5.7 Mike Zuzino 5.7 WAR
San Diego 4.9 Cory Spangenberg 2.9 WAR Hunter Renfroe 2.0 WAR
Tampa Bay 0 None
San Francisco Giants 8.9 Joe Panik 7.1 WAR Chris Stratton 1.8 WAR
Texas 0 None
St. Louis 25.5 Shelby Miller 9.2 WAR Kolten Wong 8.6 WAR Michael Wacha 7.4 WAR Luke Weaver .3 WAR
Toronto 10.1 Marcus Stroman 10.1 WAR
Washington 70.9 Stephen Strasburg 26.1 WAR Bryce Harper 26.6 WAR Anthony Rendon 18.2 WAR
@HighEliteMajor Without Greinke to trade from the previous regime, he never makes the World Series.
@dylans I'm really not trying to argue, fwiw. Most of my posed questions are serious questions.
It is a horrible business move. I totally agree.
@HighEliteMajor I would think that most people who commit crimes like that, when they are that age, are able to find work because it is never made public. Most minors would not have had this same issue. In this case, had a clerical issue not have been made, Luke Heimlich is a 1st round pick and a millionaire right now.
But, because his particular case has been made so public, due to said clerical error, I find it hard that he would be able to land a job. Possibly ever.
I have no idea what the best course of action is in this particular case. The publicity alone makes this case unique.
@justanotherfan Bubba one is extra tough when you look at who we could have gotten. About half of the first round picks ended up panning out. Probably one of the deepest drafts in a very long time.
We clearly have a scouting or development problem. Probably both.I don't see us being good for at least another 5 years unless the multiple pitchers that we got this year develop quickly. I really doubt we see Dayton as the GM the next time the Royals are competitive.
Sure, the Royals could have still had the same bad luck with other picks. But it is another level of ineptitude to whiff as badly as they did with the opportunities they were presented.