@Statmachine I wonder if we can legally have him sign something saying he will play a year for us before he goes pro? Like a Non-compete clause.
Kcmatt7
11050 posts
@Statmachine I asked my manager buddy and he didn't have any info either though so it may be true that there isn't any news.
I am not sure if we will here a decision for another week or so. I'm confident that Robinson will, and should, meet with an agent to talk about his overseas options. He wouldn't be doing his due diligence if he doesn't at least explore the idea.
Mitchell is a really old freshmen so he needs to think hard about all of this. He will be 20 already when we are halfway through this first season.
@Statmachine Just asking Matt for an update. Matt knows nothing.
Well being as how this has only happened once, and if/when we win the Big XII this season, it will have never happened in ANY conference, I'd say it is very unlikely that if Duke, UNC or UK were to be switched with us during the same time period that they could have had the same conference championship streak. I also don't believe KU would have won the ACC every year, with teams like Virginia, Notre Dame and Miami getting good coaches and getting hot. Then you add Louisville, Syracuse and Pitt in the mix now. Even Georgia Tech and Florida State have potential to have great seasons. We talk about not getting a night off in the Big XII. I think the ACC is the conference you don't get a night off in.
As far as switching with UK and the SEC, it is much more possible. The only team that scares me is Florida, and only in 2007 and 2011. KU has battled Durant and Griffin and Hield and came out on top still. No reason to think that wouldn't have happened in the SEC. 2007 we beat out Durant and Acie Law and went 14-2 in conference play. We would have been right there with that Florida team (who went 13-3 in a down year for UK - beating them twice). 2011 team won 35 games again going 14-2 in conference play with a stacked roster including T-Rob, The Morris Twins and Tyshawn. I'd bet on Bill in that scenario.
@KUSTEVE I don't. He has spent like 24 hours with the coaches. Coaches he has no rapport with because we didn't even try to really recruit him. A big decision for this kid.
With that being said, I think we see him announce in the next day or two
Final thought. We need him. The last two times we had a Robinson on the team we made it to a National a championship....
I say this as a Landen Lucas. That is exactly who I was for my high school basketball team. I was. 5'11 C. I rebounded well and was always in the right spot. I kicked the backup C ass every day in practice. He was 6'3 and 215lbs. He could dunk while I could barely grab the rim. He could block 5 shots in a game and I may have blocked 5 shots the entire season. Coach should have played him. Even if, at first, team chemistry would have suffered. He had the higher upside. If we were going to be a good team, he would have had to been the one to play. I gave us a higher floor, but I am a big enough man to admit that he had a much, much higher ceiling than I did. Even if I could outsmart him at practice and use technique and experience to beat him day in and day out. By the time sub-state rolled around, who knows what type of player he would have been had he gotten PT and been given the chance to play through mistakes. It is so frustrating as a coach to watch someone make mistakes in a game. But so much of that is neevousness and comfort level. You only get comfortable when you get enough PT and know that you won't get yanked out after one or two mistakes.
A coaches job isn't to win games, it is to win championships, or at the very least, exceed expectations. We have to be lying to ourselves to think Bill is exceeding them in March. Elite 8 losses have to end some way some how. I'm in no way advocating to get rid of Bill. Ever. I still think he is the best guy in the country to run our program. It doesn't mean we can't scrutinize decisions he has made and expect him to adjust or learn from mistakes.
It isn't fair to the talent we have in the back court to play it safe in the front court. Players don't always know what is best, and Bills job is to make the tough decisions and predict the future correctly. I can't confidently say that he has. From my point of view he has been too short-sided in his decision making and I believe that stems purely from his competitive drive. Unfortunately it apprears Bills biggest strength and weakness is his desire to win. If he never strikes a balance between winning individual games and seeing the big picture, I fear that he will never live up to his coaching potential. We all know he has the talent to be a top 5 coach of all-time. But he has to go on one of those historic runs all great coaches have, and In today's college game part of that is being able to win with Freshmen being major contributors. K and Cal have adjusted. Bill can too.
Teams with no post presence don't make the final four. If Diallo could have potentially given us a post presence we should have played him over Lucas. Plain and simple. Lucas gave us a higher floor, but a much, much lower ceiling. Bill's competitiveness might very well be his biggest fault. He doesn't let players play through mistakes (except a select few teachers pets). Being a 1 seed is important and statistics back that up. But a talented team on a roll is the scariest thing in the NCAA tournament. Ask South Carolina, UCONN, UK, Danny Manning, Butler, 2012 KU, etc. The most important thing is that we are playing our best basketball at the end of April. I'd rather be a team talented enough to win a NC who is a red hot 4 seed than a 1 seed with noticeable faults and a small margin for error.
First off, Robinson vs Diallo is night and day. Robinson will be able to practice, even while the NCAA decides his fate. Diallo got a late start for several reasons. He decided and graduated late and wasn't on campus until very late in the season. KU could have worked on his eligibility sooner had he committed before May. And that way he could have practiced with the team and built rapport starting in June instead of October. 4 months lost. Bill and the team were put in a bad spot with his situation and lack of transparency. With that said, I think Bill should have given Diallo more minutes even if it meant sacrificing a few wins with the hope it paid off come March. Think U.K. when they were an 8 seed in the NC game because Cal let all those youngsters play and take their lumps all season. It paid off. Talent wins games.
With that said, Robinson is NOT Diallo. He isn't raw and unskilled. He is a legit footer with basketball skills. And, again, he will be able to practice as soon as he decides. He will have 2 months of practice to learn and compete, and as someone who has played basketball his entire life he should be able to pick up the nuances that Diallo could never pick up in the little time he had to practice. Just 100% nights and day. To be honest, Robinson has the potential to start at the 5 over Doke come year end. Or even, if Robinson can shoot as well as billed he could play along side of Doke and our rim protection could be other worldly. if Robinson commits he will play. Period. He will play 20+ minutes a game. And lightfoot won't stand in his way, even if the guards like him better. If Robinson commits and doesn't play, KU might as well not ever try recruiting top 20 post players under Self because they won't come here. Self will be under the gun to develop Robinson into the lottery pick he was projected to be more than any other post he has ever recruited.
If Lightfoot gets more minutes than Robinson this year and this team doesn't win the NC Bill should be scrutinized harshly.
@Crimsonorblue22 not yet. I will tomorrow!
You're the man
@JayHawkFanToo Yea I mean there is probably so much already going on behind the scenes. I would love to have access to documents that KU's lawfirm probably has access to from prior NCAA rulings.
I guess at this point, I wouldn't be surprised about his eligibility in any capacity. I do think that there is probably one hell of an argument to be made.
NCAA has lost several cases in court in the past though. Probably best to save themselves an embarrassment and let the kid play. NCAA came to a pretty quick ruling after Diallo hired a lawyer and threatened legal action. I'm sure KU learned from that situation.
I watched the first two games thanks to two links posted here. Would be great if someone found the other two games and did the same!
@Crimsonorblue22 Great kid. Awesome practice body. But, I would prefer his minutes stick to the 5 minutes a game where we are playing so poorly he sends Lightfoot in just to prove a point to the other posts.
What no-one is asking is what did Bill have to promise the Basketball Gods in order to receive such a gift? Has anyone seen Tyler? Did Bill have to sacrifice his first-born son?
@BShark We can only hope. Lightfoot looked rough in Italy.
@Statmachine I mean depends on if he got credit, or aid. I think that the fact he purposely skipped the trip to Costa Rica trip will help him a lot. The fact that he changed his mind before the Fall school year started should help as well.
The more I look at it, my best guess would be that the NCAA will rule him ineligible for the Fall and let him play starting in the Spring. They can't just let him play right away, for fear of future precedent. But they also would catch a ton of backlash if they don't let him play at all this year. Seems like a win-win for all parties involved.
Just me assuming, but more likely than not LSU just couldnt' find a way to make room for him. And no sense kicking someone off the team for a guy who may or not be eligible. I would have seriously questioned LSU's coach and his morales if he was willing to take that big of a risk with both the lockerroom and personnel.
RockkChalkk said:
There has been a lot of momentum towards KU with many different high level players. Its fun to imagine, but what if all of the planets aligned and all of the real possibilities for KU end up happening AND our underclassmen remain vs going pro. Our team could look like the list below in 2018.
Moore, Grimes, Dotson, Garrett, Vick, Cunliffe, KJ Lawson, Zion Williamson, Lightfoot, D. Lawson, Preston, Dok, Mitchell Robinson
Its obvious that this will never happen but it seems like some of these recruits are an either/or situation. OR, Self knows that some of our returning guys are likely gone. I didn't include Newman either because it is pretty much accepted that this year will be his last at KU barring serious injury.
The common thought is that we definitely are pursuing Dotson & Grimes and one is not dependent on the other, meaning there is room for both in addition to Moore. The tea leaves tell me this means Self believes Vick is gone.
The situation with the big men appears more complex. This one feels like maybe Self thinks the odds of getting Zion aren't very high. The catch with this is that the decision from Mitchell Robinson has to be made by Aug 31 so he can't make it a conditional offer based on Zion's decision. Seems to me like it will need to be one or the other and might put Self in a tough spot.
I just don't think you can land Grimes and Zion without Vick leaving. But what the hell do I know? Kentucky has been able to platoon before and somehow convinced kids to buy in.
Everything else is possible, but not probable. Between Doke, Robinson and Preston, two of those if not all three, will turn pro after this season.
I want Robinson and think he ends up here. For two years. He is a head case who I can guarantee slipped down 10 spots already just from all this stuff going on right now. And he doesn't have Thon Maker upside (36inch vertical), while he has all the same Thon Maker negatives (skinny headcase who can't hold post position and likes to shoot shots he probably shouldn't). If Hamidou Diallo couldn't get drafted in the first round after posting a 46 inch vertical, I find it hard to believe that Robinson will get drafted without playing.
@BShark I'll believe it when I see it. No chance this mommas boy leaves the US.
Robinson also just started following several KU twitter accounts.
@HawkChamp Lol me too, but I think we also have a bit of Crimson and Blue tint to our shades...
@HawkChamp I think he wanted a larger role at a smaller school. He know he isn't going pro (in the U.S.). So he wants 30 minutes a game. He needs more game tape so he can try to land an overseas gig. And his role here doesn't allow him to show off.
Can't blame him for doing what he thinks is best for him.
Also, I don't know buy I feel like by now all of the players at LSU probably signed or accepted their basketball scholarship for the season. I would think it would be illegal for a scholarship to be taken away now without the player voluntarily giving up his scholarship. So, if nobody from the LSU roster wants to give up their scholarship, I don't know what they do.
@JayHawkFanToo good point.
@JayHawkFanToo Yea I could get in trouble if I did that.
Essentially it said this though. Robinson visited LSU twice last week. Any report saying him to LSU is far from a done deal with his KU visit this weekend. LSU will have to make a roster move to add him as well, making it a longer shot to LSU. (Of course the author then posts that he still thinks Robinson will end up at LSU).
It also said that Robinson has to be enrolled in classes by 8/31 because that is the last day to add a class at LSU (not sure for KU). So his decision will be made very soon.
He also said UK might be getting involved, but I haven't heard that yet from any other source.
@dylans like 20% he gets cleared. It is a dangerous precedence the NCAA would be setting. So the argument can't be "he never played any games so he should be allowed to leave." That opens a whole new door that coaches and the NCAA do not want to deal with recruiting-wise.
The argument needs to be framed like this: "Mitchell left WKU because (insert very very good reason). Because he hasn't played a game yet, he should be granted waivers."
If I was the lawyer that will be dealing with this case I would say this. It is obvious to everyone the situation went South after his God Father was fired, which was the entire reason Robinson was committed to WKU in the first place. He attempted to honor his commitment, but the relationship was irreparably damaged by that point. Classes have not even started in the Fall, nor have official practices. There is no reason for the NCAA to force Mitchell to sit out for a season or school year he was never apart of. Holding Mitchell hostage because he took a few Summer classes is not fair to him, nor is it allowing him to be treated like any other student. All other students are allowed to take credits elsewhere over the summer and transfer them to their school. So as long as Mitchell isn't breaking any University policies, his Summer credits should not be of a concern to the NCAA. We do understand that Mitchell's case is an unusual one. But, cases like these are the reason the waiver was created in the first place. If Mitchell does not receive waivers, we will be appealing the decision and begin looking into legal action.
I would release a statement like that publicly. And I would let the media pressure and threat of legal action pressure cook the NCAA. The last thing the NCAA needs is high profile athletes taking action against them. It creates a strong media bias in favor of the athlete as well as legal precedence that they can't ever change the rules on.
I would put Robinson on TV and make sure that he spoke to every single announcer about his situation before every game just to make sure that it gets mentioned on National TV as many times as possible.
The idea is, if you make it a bigger hassle for them than it would be for you, they will cave. Legal action for the NCAA is it's death sentence too. It is very nice to have an overarching system and set of rules for everyone. But if it becomes more of a hassle to follow the rules than to not follow the rules, that is when the death of the NCAA starts. So, they will cave to a lawsuit that they could possibly lose 90% of the time.
I watched the first half of game two on my lunch break today. Here are my notes:
- Garrett gets it. He understands spacing because he was a PG. He plays at 110% while understanding he can't play too fast or he will make mistakes. On top of that, he is athletic and has great timing. He will be our 3rd big off the bench it looks like.
- Lightfoot has disappointed me so far. We just should be able to do better for our 3rd big than him. He isn't a threat to score, rebound or block a shot. He is essentially just out there. He might be in the right spot 100% of the time, but when you pose no threat it doesn't really matter where you are.
I have a good feeling about Robinson.
LSU will have to do something drastic with their roster in order to land him. And you risk losing the lockerroom when you do that this late in the process. I would bet they are selling him on walking-on year 1 and scholarship year 2. If he clears waivers, he will play as a walk-on if he doesn't clear waivers he will drop classes and either play overseas or hire a trainer and prep for the draft.
KU will get his mom on campus and show her the amazing facilities where her son will be spending the next two seasons. I think it happens.
We need an early announcement just so we can focus on other guys.
Landing both Dotson and Grimes is huge. Adding Zion is unreal. Adding Dotson, Grimes, Zion and Robinson would start the undefeated talk.
Slater also broadcasting far and wide Williamson is not a package deal with Quickley.
"I didn't click on that thread, but will say that if anyone knew how hard it was to get that thing done, they'd be amazed. The parents are shutting down interviews to a Very select few. One wanted me to put out there that there is no package deal with Quickley and felt that their son had been badgered into saying he had a package deal at a prior venue."
Also he said "I was with a Western Conference Scout last night." Never in the history of ever has Matt Scott said anything close to that connections wise. SMH
@BeddieKU23 Although, I suppose it should make me feel better about the weight that a Slater CB pick carries...
@BeddieKU23 Well we all know that is because he saw Slater's. Matt has no inside information.
@HighEliteMajor DG was definitely tight in the NC game (3 points, all free throws). If you rewatch it, he passed up several open shots he normally took all season long. Bell blocked a couple of shots and all of a sudden he grew to 8ft in our players minds. They were terrified of him. It is why JJ was a super inefficent 3-8 from the field. If those two guys have a normal scoring night we win by 2.
@BShark Agreed. They gave us JJ and Wigs. But we should seriously be landing a top 10 guy every single season. Adidas should buy us a player every single season. With that being said, if we land 1 of those two I agree I will back off of them for a couple of seasons. If they get us both, I'll just stop entirely.
@BeddieKU23 I think you take your shot on someone with talent and backed into a corner like Robinson is. NBA teams wouldn't want to take a shot on someone who you basically just said could quit at any second and was a team cancer and is unreliable, etc.
So now you have an uber-talented kid who really has nowhere to go and has motivation to prove himself. Not to mention that sitting an entire season while going through demoralizing practices is definitely one way to make a kid with ego problems more humble.
I'm going to spin it as we have the chance to have a motivated, 2nd year 5-star footer. And I would take that all day long.
Now odds are he does end up at LSU, but staff should be selling the hell out of coming here and getting PT.
After reading Slater's interview, seems like Adidas is making a push on him. Good to hear Arizona dropped out of the race. UNC doesn't sound like they are in real contention.
I think it comes down to Duke, KU and UCLA. If we can convince Dotson to come to KU we might get the edge on him.
Langford is the same. I think Adidas made a hard push on him. Down to KU, IU and UL basically.
I think we land one of those two now that I see Adidas making moves.
At this point, if Self doesn't land 3 studs I am going to be very very disappointed. Between Langford, Dotson, Grimes, Williamson and Barrett we need to land 3 guys. Next year's team has amazing depth and will have solid veteran college basketball players. But what we will need desperately is some playmaking on the offensive end.
@BeddieKU23 Once he transfers he is stuck there unless he goes pro basically. NCAA only grants you one transfer, or two if you become a grad transfer. So unless Robinson wants to go play pro ball overseas or sit out and enter next years draft he will be stuck wherever it is he transfers to. I think that is a major reason Bill takes these guys.
@KUSTEVE I do not think Robinson has a chance of playing this year. It sets a dangerous precedence. Only way out is if he plays the card that he went to WKU because of his God Father or whatever and then he left and Robinson wanted out but was already stuck due to his LOI.
NCAA can't let him just leave and play somewhere else. Imagine how many kids would switch schools after the first time coach yelled at them... He will have to come up with one hell of an argument.
@BShark He has all the tools. You can see it. The game just needs to slow down for him a little and he needs to be able to see the bigger picture. I don't think he understands ball rotation because he has always just shot every time he had the ball. He is a big mismatch vs other posts, but not sure he understands that you can only exploit mismatches when you catch the ball in certain spots on the floor.
But, from what I watched I'm excited how much of a physical specimen he is going to be at the very least. He rebounded pretty well in the one game I watched.
@HawkChamp I get that Doke may make some running hooks, but is that what we want him doing?
I'd rather see him make a strong move instead of a finesse move. For several reasons.
- Power moves play to his strength and will, in the long run, be a much more efficient shot for him than a hook.
- He will be a cause a lot of fouls from the other team's posts. Foul trouble for starting centers means easier buckets later in the game. It means that an aggressive shot blocker might have to back off because he can't pick up an extra foul. You don't pick up a lot of fouls throwing up hooks.
- If he becomes efficient with his power moves and does draw a lot of fouls, teams will be forced to start double teaming him just to keep players in the game. And with our guards ability to move the ball and shoot the 3, that makes us very scary.
If you think about it statistically, it gets really interesting. Let's say, if Doke were to draw 2.5 fouls a game and keep the hook and he makes it at a 65% clip on 3 attempts per game while not forcing a double team he would add somewhere around 5.8 PPG playing finesse. (Based on his last years numbers and playing 25 ppg) If instead, he were to get fouled 3.5 times per game, and pass out of the double team that leads to an open trey 3 times a game, he would be adding 5.81 PPG of impact. And that is if we only make those extremely open treys at a 35% clip. If we were to more accurately assume we shoot those wide open 3s at a 40% clip it would be an addition of 6.26 PPG. This is not including what the impact of an extra foul per game could do to the opponents. If he gets a starting center 3 fouls early in the game, all of a sudden that point differential grows more and more.
So again, my point, he may very well make hook shots at an efficient rate, but his overall impact on the game is much greater if he plays an aggressive, high-contact game where he picks up a ton of fouls. If this were chess, Doke making a hook shot is like capturing a pawn. You're going to let him have that shot all day long. Where Doke getting a 3rd foul on a starting center is like capturing the other team's queen.
I finally watched the first game this weekend. My notes.
- DG and Newman will be electric together. I'm not sure their is a better back court in the country. Duke and Arizona are right there too, but younger than our guys.
- Our interior offense is much improved. We will get more than 8 points from that spot per game now.
- Our interior defense and weak side help are still very very poor. Maybe worse than last seasons. I can't believe how many dunks we gave up.
- We are starting two ball stoppers/black holes at PF and C. Neither are great B2B scorers. Doke has no footwork and Billy just looks uncomfortable and does not know how to score with his left hand. With that being said, raw talent is there and we still have 3 months to coach them up pre-season. Or, big picture, 8 months to coach them up pre-Tourney. The focus needs to be getting Billy to finish through contact with both hands and work on driving the ball from the top of the key and corner. Doke needs to master two post moves. He needs to master the drop step and then the up-and under. I don't want to see anymore running hooks from Doke.
I'm calling it now, the development of our two studs in the post will be the difference in a Final Four or another Elite Eight bust. If they can learn to keep the offense running with fluidity, provide some consistent scoring and give our guards a little bit more rim protection than we have had the past several seasons this team is a top 4 team in the country. If they can't learn to do that, this team will struggle in the tourney.
People don't like Moss. But this year so far he has literally won 2 games basically by himself offensively. And that is the reason Ned will continue to trot him out day in and day out, and I'm ok with it.
BeddieKU23 said:
Matt may just never be the guy that gets first hand knowledge of what's happening.
He is a douche and has no actual connection with the program. Other guys seem to have some sort of in with their program. I mean all you need to do is befriend even someone as lowly as a team manager. Slip him a 20 or buy him a beer for just a little bit of info. I know that my buddy has picked up probably a dozen guys who visited KU in the last 4 years without a single report of them being on campus. Or getting word of who may or may not be transferring. Or who coach gave a recruits number to and told them to hit them up. I know that Self had all of the guards texting Malik in his first recruitment. Probably half the reason he transferred here.
These are the tidbits Matt should be sharing....
@BShark He is kind of stuck... Can't transfer again until he graduates. Which he is 2 years away from.
That is duuuuuuumb. I would have thought about breaking down and paying for it when I got home from work too. After the day I had $30 for a little bit of joy would be well worth it.
Guess I'll have to search the deep web to see if I can find it anywhere else.
Can we fly Mitchell Robinson out to Italy really quick? Do we think the staff put in a phone call at least? Would you take him?
I think he goes overseas, but I just figured I'd ask.