🏀 KuBuckets Archive

@kjayhawks Honestly think a loss in manhattan goes without saying

@approxinfinity Every time KU had a chance to extend it to 16-20 we'd turn it over and K state would score

@BShark They're just bad

@StLJhawk With the clock on our side i'd rather just run our offense for 30 seconds

That was off k state but whatever

@tundrahok Wow

@wissox But...how? Isn't it freezing? Is this like an ice surfing thing?

Omg...did i just see storr hit a 3??

Calling for a trap there is...interesting

@SlimShaddy54 Eh, I wouldn't say he just laid down there. Hawkins seems to have the advantage over him

I think Storr gets scored over on every post possession

Great pass by HD there

@SlimShaddy54 Well that's a good thing

@KirkIsMyHinrich Well sh*t

Passmore and Coit provided nothing. I'd be fine with giving all their minutes to Griffen

Anyone know how many minutes Griffen got in the first half?

Passmore and Flory both overhelped on back to back possessions and gave them easy buckets

@DanR I was honestly surprised he managed to hit the rim. K State wants him to shoot that shot. Same with Dajuan and Shak Moore shooting them

Ya Rakeese Passmore can go ahead and take a seat for the rest of the day

@SlimShaddy54 That and forcing the ball inside to HD. K state's just collapsing on him with triple teams. Can't score that way

Griffen in the game now

@kjayhawks Oh he already is. He probably was in November

K state should uh...really stop shooting 3s

I don't like this game. I miss KJ taking mid range jumpers.

@Jhawk69 said in My crisis of faith in Bill:

Regarding KJ, I agree that the defense sags off of him and that that causes offensive problems. But he does some good things to make up for it. Overall, he is a fine but not great player. He deserves a role on this team but probably should not play 30+ mpg at the 4.

Now that, I would agree with!

It's not often that we see Self's hand get forced, where he has to go without one of his pet favorites. This should be interesting.

@SlimShaddy54 I'll take either quite frankly. We've been best when Flory is playing alongside HD. Problem is foul trouble.

You mean great choice!

I don't expect KU to lose this game. But I didn't expect them to lose to WVU either. If they do lose...hello, rock bottom.

@Jhawk69 I'm starting to remember why I found this board frustrating in the first place. It's hard to have this debate one well thought out screed at a time.

The examples you chose are fascinating. Naadir Tharpe and Kevin Young were pretty effective players on pretty talented teams during the years where Frank and Perry played behind them, though they both played a lot their freshman years. KJ Adams is not an effective player, nor is he on a team where we can afford for him to play 35 minutes, get 2 rebounds and 4 points.

Frank Mason is one of the greatest players in KU history. And I'd argue that Perry Ellis should probably be in the rafters. You could see how good these guys were their freshman years. Does anyone remember when Perry Ellis went nuclear against a phenomenal Iowa State team in the big 12 tournament as a freshman!?

But let's not get too far away from what this debate is essentially about. Playing KJ Adams over players with more upside who make our offense more dynamic.

Bill Self said about KJ's absence: “He’s played so well the last four games. He’s been without question our best and most consistent performer. I think that’s a blow...” This is delusional.

KJ can't score. Other teams are daring him to shoot because it's essentially a takeaway for them. They can sag off of him and our centers have to fend off 3 guys for a rebound. On the defensive end, he's great at being in position, but he's undersized guarding the 4 or 5 so he's easy to score over. Griffen and Flory offer better alternatives to him.

I don't know what else to say at this point. My whole argument with the Cliff, Cheik, Elijah comparisons were that this isn't new. It's who Self has always been. And if you're still defending this, then I hope you like round of 32 losses.

@Jhawk69 I don't care at this point. It was a decade ago, and up until the 2018-19 team, it was easily Self's worst.

But I'm curious, what are your thoughts on what KU should do in KJ's absence? Or where KU has been struggling this year regarding the lack of productivity at the 4?

@dylans someone correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't it the law in Kansas that if you're underrage, and drink one beer, then drive it's a DUI? I was never under the impression that he was hammered and got busted. I could be wrong though.

@Jhawk69 We can do this all day. Jamari played 222 more minutes than Cliff. That's quite a difference. Cliff obviously played less games, so that makes sense. And yet, Cliff still scored more than Jamari (73 FGM compared to 67) and outrebounded him (148 to 130), and they tied with the team lead for blocks.

This is the age old debate, though. Short vs. long-term gain. Cliff was the better player. It seemed obvious then. It seems overwhelmingly true now. So he was out of position at times? Cool. He had the higher upside in the long-term, but was probably the better strategic move in the short-term. I remember people debating this at the time. It was infuriating.

As far as Cheik, this debate is kinda pointless because Cheik never played very much (only about 7 mpg), he was also held out of the first 10 games or so of the season. But we knew his upside. And I'll just never buy into the Landen Lucas stuff. He wasn't good. He committed to KU after Andrew Tarcewski committed to Arizona, who we had banked the future on. If I remember right, Lucas was like a consolation from the bargain bin when that whole thing fell through.

But who cares about picking over the details from a decade ago. KJ is the perfect representation of this debate. KJ's great at being in position and defending. But he's undersized and easy to score over. Flory isn't a 4 so they're not playing the same position. But he scores more, rebounds better, gets blocks while KJ...does none of those things.

So I pose this question to everyone with about 2 hours till game time. What do we think is gonna happen today? Do we think we see an actual change today and this team finds its stride? Or do we think guys still play with nerves and struggle to fit together. I think a game in the fieldhouse could really lift this team up if things start off well. My guess is we start Dajuan, Shak, Mayo, Griffen, and HD.

@wissox said in My crisis of faith in Bill:

I laugh at guys like Grady Dick who took the money and play for a gosh awful Toronto team. Must be really fun playing in a boring league in front bored fans. He was getting paid here and would be a huge part of KU lore had he stuck around. Instead he’s an NBA afterthought. Would’ve gotten paid after this year or even his senior year a bunch.

Grady Dick is one thing! Not only was he phenomenal at KU (don't get me wrong, he shrank in big moments, and it was easy for good teams to take him out of the game--imagine if he had another year to develop!) he's been great in the league! He's averaging 16 points. Side note: you said a gosh awful Toronto team. Personally I don't understand anyone leaving KU for the NBA. The whole league is garbage.

But Johnny Furphy is the one I don't understand the most. Johnny Furphy showed promise. But he wasn't that good at KU. He had a stretch of like 8 games where played well. That's it. KU fans were shocked when he fell to the second round. Why? Would you take a chance on him in the NBA? He's now averaging 8 mpg, and 2 ppg. Woof.

I feel like this would be a better convo over a beer instead of a message board. But alas...

@BShark Aint' that the truth. He was good as a freshman. Imagine how much he could've grown in year 2 or 3.

@BShark I'll be honest with you. I question whether Remy was actually hurt. That dude was doing tomahawk jams in warmups during the period of time that he was supposedly hurt. That was also the word on the street at the time. I do think that Remy might've said something like 'ya i'm not feeling 100%. Probably best to hold me out until March.' Which would definitely check out with what Self said in the locker room after the national championship, "hey guys, he told us 'just wait till March'."

Regarding the Cliff vs. Lucas split. Yes, I said that. They basically played the same amount of minutes and Cliff had more points, rebounds, blocks, FTAs, FTMs. Lucas did beat Cliff in one stat, if we're gonna nitpick. Turnovers. Cliff was the better player. I also feel vindicated by watching Lucas play 3 more years at KU and seeing how low his ceiling was.

@Jhawk69 Then why don't their stats reflect it? Cliff averaged almost as twice as much scoring of either and outrebounded both of them. Even looking at totals he was clearly the better option than either of them only playing about 2/3 of the minutes played compared to Traylor and pretty much the same as Lucas. And as far as the games started...one was against Temple when we got blown out, and the other 5 were his last 5 games at KU, which suggests that Self probably realized who gave us the best chance.

I'm not gonna sit here and act like Cliff didn't have his problems. He clearly did. That's why he didn't even finish out the season. But at the time it was clear he was the better option. I'll give you Diallo, he probably didn't show enough. But he also averaged 7.5 mpg. At the time it was frustrating because we all knew what Lucas' ceiling was. Diallo's was much higher.

I watched every minute of KU bball during those years and, I'm sorry, Landen Lucas wasn't very good. He was serviceable. He was a nice kid. He was in some of my classes at KU. But he wasn't the caliber of player we see very often here. I don't think he would've started for any other team in the Big 12 at the time.

I agree with you about both takes on Tharpe, White, and Reed. I honestly liked Tharpe. I thought he was better than most KU fans remember. White was a good player too. He looked good when he was on the floor too. He would've been a great guy to have for 4 years. And I'll never say a bad word about Reed. When @kuballin10 kept saying Tyrel I thought there must've been another Tyrel that I forgot about lol.

@kuballin10 I'm an old head. One of the originals from when there was an initial departure from KUSports.com to this site.

There are a lot of KU players over the years that fall into the category we've been talking about (Traylor, Lucas, Morningstar, even Marcus Garrett at times)...but I liked Tyrel Reed. He was a Kansas guy that was a 41 percent 3 point shooter. What I wouldn't give for anyone on our team to shoot that well.

@Crimsonorblue22 Sure. Dave was an interesting exception, though. He showed some real promise on a bad team in 2021. In 2022 though? He took a step back. His scoring average dipped quite a bit. Let's not rewrite history, he really struggled.

Now, that being said, I don't give a crap about the regular season given what he did in the tournament. And I'll fight anyone who says his number shouldn't be retired because Ochai won the MOP in the Final 4. Dave McCormack won KU the national championship. In almost every way that changes how he's remembered. But over the course of the previous 30 games he really struggled.

Bringing up Remy, though...we should hang his picture at the top of this message board on this topic. Do we all have amnesia? Bill Self hated Remy Martin. He refused to play him. That was the case in the exhibition games. Bill Self was forced to play Remy Martin and it resulted in a championship. That wasn't Bill Self knowing which buttons to press, he had no choice. The guy he was playing 30 mpg at point guard couldn't score and we needed a spark. Remy carried us through that win over Providence, and there's a case to be made that Remy was actually the MVP of the national championship.

I don't know that I'm really trying to make a strong argument for anything. I'm consigned to our fate at this point, but I guess you're right @approxinfinity that's probably more or less what I'm getting at. I've watched KU long enough at this point to recognize the trends. And this is a fun therapeutic thing to do on Friday night while I watch the Sopranos lol.

@approxinfinity He's literally said that they don't recruit for fit, they just recruit the most talented player. That is astonishing.

This is not a new thing.

I'm sure there are plenty of examples of this, but two pretty dramatic instances that I can remember were in 2015 and in 2016.

The first was when we were coming off of years of having a dominant big man (Kaun, Jackson, Aldrich, Withey, T-Rob, Embiid), and in 2015 we just didn't. We had a freshman who was showing immense promise and Self just wouldn't give him a chance. He was FIXATED on playing Jamari Traylor and Landen Lucas over Cliff Alexander. Looking back at some of the box scores, it wasn't just the eye test, Cliff was phenomenal. We would kill for that kind of production this season. Self stayed with Lucas and Traylor. Neither of which could score. Neither of which were greater rebounders. But they were in his circle of trust.

Come to think of it, Self did the same thing in 2017 with Cheik Diallo. He hardly ever played more than a few minutes here and there, while Landen Lucas got absolutely bodied by Jordan Bell from Oregon in the Elite 8. Bell had 8 blocks and 13 rebounds over Lucas in that game. It reminded me of Brady Morningstar in the Elite 8 against VCU (hey, another example!). Brady looked like a middle school boy playing amongst men. He didn't belong on the same court.

The other major example I can think was the 2016 season. That was the year where yet again, we didn't have a dominant post presence. But we did have some phenomenal shooters. THAT was our strength. But that went against Self's basketball philosophy. This was the season where Self dropped his now infamous "fool's gold" line about three pointers. It was maddening. Landen Lucas and Jamari Traylor were yet again our primary 5 men. They were the same players as the year before. I remember we lost at Iowa State and the fanbase was starting to get pissed about Self's constant criticism of our three point shots. We kept trying to force it inside to a talentless big man. It was like banging your head against a brick wall. And yet, once Self dropped the criticism. Stopped benching guys for shooting threes...guess what? We won 17 games in a row, falling short to a great Villanova team that went on to win the title (I'm stilled pissed they were the two seed in our bracket that year--they were 33-5 for god's sake...the same record as us!).

My point is, this is nothing new. Self has always been this way. I saw someone say this sort of attitude has probably cost KU a couple more titles. Holding more talented players back because of some BS circle of trust philosophy that plays guys like Brady Morningstar over guys like Elijah Johnson. Landen Lucas over Cheik Diallo. Jamari Traylor over Cliff Alexander. This shortcoming is becoming a flashing red light in this current era. It was one thing when Self was doing this knowing that he had another year or 2 to build some of these guys up. Not only can Self not break a guy down in their first year to build them back up in their second, third, or fourth year for fear that they might transfer, but he sure as hell can't do it over the course of 6-8 months with a transfer rental.

I love Bill Self. There will certainly be a statue of him in front of the Fieldhouse one day. But I'm starting to get very worried that he can't be successful in this current era. I hope I'm wrong. Keep in mind, that Dajuan and KJ are holdovers from seasons where the NCAA investigation greatly impacted recruiting. Maybe next year is the beginning of a new era in KU basketball. But the memories of the 2011, 2015, 2017 seasons loom large. Those were good KU teams whose ceilings were lowered dramatically by Self's stubbornness. With KJ out the next two games, we'll see if this team can get up off the mat, and if Self can adapt to the situation.

I hope this was as therapeutic for you guys reading this as it was for me writing it!

KU's season point distribution (% of total):
- 3-pointers: 26.9% (ranked 292)
- 2-pointers: 61.0% (ranked 4)
- Free throws: 12.1% (ranked 364 - this is dead last)

Had a friend send this to me and I stared at it for 10 minutes like it was a modern art masterpiece (of terrible). This would have been bad in 1996. We cannot win this way.

@approxinfinity As soon as the game resumed after his ejection, i thought to myself 'wait, Flory might actually be better for what we're trying to do'

@BigBad I don't know, man. To say that outlook is overly pessimistic is probably putting it mildly.

I honestly think this is maybe the most excited I've ever been about KU sports. Have you seen what KU's volleyball team, women's basketball, and KU baseball is doing? Not to mention the football program. How can you not absolutely love a guy like Devin Neal? Or Jason Bean? Guys that absolutely love KU. Devin Neal could easily make millions of dollars next year, but I will flat out bet you that he chooses to come back to KU because of how important he is to their success next season--when he will almost certainly become KU's all time leading rusher.

I think a lot of that comes back to our athletic director, who may already be the best AD we've had in my lifetime. Travis Goff is from Kansas, a diehard KU fan, and is working on righting some of the wrongs of the past. Again, you are describing the passing of a bygone era that in a lot of ways is literally happening right in front of you.

If you want to be mad about these issues to the point where you walk away, that's your prerogative. But you'll be missing out. RCJH.

I think this is kind of a wild take. We are a year and a half removed from a bunch of kids (that were 3 and 4 star recruits) from the KC area winning a national championship at KU! Two of them are starters on this years team! I'm also pretty sure that Ochai, McCormack, and Jalen Wilson all graduated. Dajuan Harris and KJ Adams will graduate, and if Christian Braun hasn't already, he will. I hear ya on the transfer stuff...but Hunter Dickinson is the real deal, and seems to have absolutely embraced KU. Did you hear his interview after the Kentucky game? He was rattling off KU history like he grew up in Lawrence. Did you hear Kevin McCullar say he wishes he would've played his entire career at KU? I'm thankful that this new era allowed for guys like that to come to KU.

I think you gotta evolve with the times. I understand the frustration with NIL and the transfer portal. But all things considered, the transfer portal especially made it possible for someone like McCullar to even come to KU. They also made it possible for someone like Dickinson to come to KU rather than going to the NBA, where his game doesn't have a home. It might even allow him to come back to KU for another year.

As others have said, you might be describing a utopia that just never existed. But I'll also say, this year's starting lineup features two seniors, a super senior, a junior, and a freshman. Four of the 5 will for sure get degrees from KU. I've heard people make this argument before and they're missing that the scenario they're describing is literally happening right in front of them. 2022 was that utopian vision of college basketball. A veteran team from the area goes on to win it all. That's great! That's why we watch sports. Obviously this year isn't exactly the same, but there are most definitely similarities.

If you want to be mad at someone, be made at guys like Udeh and Ejiofor who left KU prematurely to step into the exact same situations at inferior schools. Let them be a cautionary tale of this new era.

Later edit: I'd also like to add that NIL and the transfer portal allowed KU football to turn around faster than anyone would have ever expected. Lance Leipold and his staff are performing a miracle in the KU football program right now, but they are helped significantly by the flexibility that the transfer portal allows, and the security that NIL offers.

Am I the only one that finds it a bit suspicious that this all happened? Jalon is a 21 year old D1 athlete in peak physical condition...and he tweaked his back going through walk-throughs at the hotel? And Lance Leipold didn't know about it until 20 minutes before kick? And then Jalon didn't even go to the sideline to cheer his team on?

Told you guys, nothing to worry about. Next weekend on the other hand...I'm not so confident

@wissox My point is Arkansas should have beaten BYU handily. I don't foresee KU committing 14 penalties.

@FarmerJayhawk Right. Arkansas had 21 first downs, but was 2/13 on third downs. BYU's longest throw from scrimmage was a trick play on a throw from a WR. 45 of BYU's 77 rushing yards came on one carry (they ran the ball 31 times; if you take out that one long run they ran the ball for 1.06 yards per carry...yikes), Arkansas committed 14 (?!?) penalties for 125 yards...both teams had a return for a TD... I mean, the game was as weird as it gets, and if Arkansas hadn't repeatedly shot themselves in the foot with penalties (and their one INT was REAL bad) they would've won by 2 scores. I wouldn't let the Arkansas outcome scare you. If anything, I think it says more about Arkansas than BYU.

I think this game is similar to the one against Duke last year. BYU will hang around, but the better team will be clear.

I felt the same way about the Illinois game: If KU wins, it won't be by one score. I see KU winning 31-17.