Talking about top coaches only, what are the criteria?
Best recent seasons? In that case pick those with the most rings since (choose your year), and break ties with Final Four appearances.
Do you get points off for bad recent seasons? In that case move Roy and Calipari down.
Do you get points for a high average, or for conference titles? In that case move Self up.
Do you count what you think will happen over the next year, or 2, or 3? In that case follow your heart, or throw darts.
Only one in a hundred "advisors" has ever actually done anything well that they give advice about.
@jaybate 1.0 That may or may not be true but it sure feels true!
I give all my players lots of development minutes: they're called "practices".
Bill Self (as made up by me)
@HighEliteMajor How about Brady in place of Conner Teahan?
Bonus question: if we went to the U Games after the 2011 season, would Brady have been eligible?
Second bonus question: is Brady the only player who, if you believe every post written about him, had a ceiling lower than his foundation?
@jaybate 1.0 I can't quote the poster because I don't remember who, but somebody mentioned USA Basketball rules: NBA players can go to the Olympics and Worlds, but not to other tournaments. So active NBA players are out. As far as other pros (or former NBAers) are concerned, it's not clear. If Self does go with former players, he obviously will want the best.
Personally, I'm with you: first, convince as many current players as possible to stay through 2015-16; then complete the roster with near future players, not past players.
The bit about transfers being able to play is tantalizing: anybody who transfers after first or second semester of next year would get to play in 8 more games with KU than with any other possible destination. That is a clear and unique advantage for recruiting transfers.
Let's not forget that Self already had the "3 combo guard" philosophy at Illinois: we bought that when we hired him, and it worked in 2008. Even Deron Williams was a "combo guard" for Self.
Haven't we been complaining about slowly inbounding to the same guy instead of whoever's available pushing the ball up the floor?
We need more transition offense: this may help.
@HighEliteMajor the avatar is Releford at Versailles during the team's European tour - photo from kusports.com. They came to Play in Paris and I was out of town!
@HighEliteMajor I'll concede that there is in general a bit more risk in taking a European player than in taking an American player.
OK? I conceded.
Now can you bring yourself to concede something?
That is not the issue.
We are still talking about SM, right? If so, you have to compare the "risk" of taking him versus the "risk" of having a scholarship open. There is no American player Self passed on to take SM.
No question, you have mentioned some real risks, such as current players transferring. Good for you.
But this comparing of SM to a non-existent American recruit should stop: that comparison doesn't apply here since we still have a scholarship open and no American recruit to give it to.
@HighEliteMajor I'll grant there are non-zero chances that he will not be eligible next year OR there will be an extra transfer OR he will go back to Europe, but some of those risks cancel each other out. If he gets in a McLemore situation then why would anybody transfer? If he leaves after a year then transferring becomes less of a necessity.
How can you compare with Rubio? He never came to college. You have one example of a European who left after a year.
You have one example of a European who lost his eligibility.
I have one example of an American who chose Europe over college: Brandon Jennings. Should we be worried that our American recruits won't come to KU?
You are now saying "a bit more risk". Fine: a bit.
I've been told that there is no greater risk with this kid, than signing a kid from the good ole USA. So majority rules. No greater risk.
Signed,
Enes Kanter
@HighEliteMajor Double bull hockey.
1) Your first sentence only makes sense if Self had to choose between SM and a USA kid with the same talent and skill: he didn't. Besides, even if he did there were 2 scholarships available. Don't imply that it's an either/or situation, it just isn't.
2) Enes Kanter took money and played pro: SM didn't. End of comparison.
@HighEliteMajor Perhaps a shorter shot clock would favor the zone press? Just make the other team lose a few extra seconds before they can set up their offense: they get a 25 second shot clock, we get 30 seconds.
Does anyone do that in the NBA?
@nuleafjhawk Self definitely brought out the treadmill for Rush after he didn't shoot when open.
I hope these conversations depend a little bit on lineups:
- "The post player is a #1 draft pick: get him the ball."
or
- "The post player is the best rebounder coming out of high school: shoot when open unless there is no offensive rebounder in sight."
Don't tell me the better D1 shooters aren't aware of rebounding position, game situation and the shot clock...
@drgnslayr We need to start by spelling his last name right:
Sviatoslav MykhailiKU!
@HighEliteMajor I missed your example of the Greek player. That is a valid point.
@HighEliteMajor "We can't agree that a Ukrainian kid might be more likely to bolt to play in Europe than the normal high level, born and raised in the USA player?"
Why even try to make that comparison? It is likely that S.M. will play in Europe, yes, but it is highly unlikely that he would play one year in college and then bolt. The downside of Europe is being tied down to a contract that would delay his nba career. Starting that contract one year later would just make things worse.
I don't see the prospect of "bolting" as a serious factor in deciding whether or not to recruit this guy.
So is he there? Sightings?
@jaybate 1.0 it wasn't a rattlesnake. If it were I would be more inclined to believe in an accident.
Does anyone seriously believe Sterling's racist recording was released during the playoffs by accident?
@wissoxfan83 I think Putin's arrival in the Ukraine increases our prospects much more than White's departure.
On the other hand, White leaving may be a tiny signal in favor of our chances.
@icthawkfan316 Right on, and look at Embiid tweeting what a great place KU is for a foreign bball player (right before the Ukrainian Alphabet decides where he's going to play).
I do think the moaning about OADs is more about the situation than the players. I certainly hope so. We can say all we want how things should be, we still need to support what is.
@truehawk93 AW3 to Wake, I like it! Good one.
Back to White, someone on KUSports is still talking about him redshirting. That was always a stupid idea: it would put him and Greene on a collision course throughout their careers.
If Greene had redshirted, they would have 2 years' separation and each one could take his turn. That ship sailed in November.
Greene is quicker and has better potential as a perimeter defender and ball handler. Andrew was a better rebounder so a better small 4, but how often did we need that from him? Just not a good fit.
As far as going to WSU, could he fit into their defensive scheme?
Talk about mixed feelings! So sad to see such a great teammate and hard worker go, especially when he leaves with such class. On the other hand, glad for him that Coach Self told it like it is and then he made the right choice for his future. I hope he will take advantage of Self's open invitation to keep a relationship with KU.
Mr. White, may your future be bright!
@HighEliteMajor I'll bet the functions are different too. When we have two guards who can handle the ball out there, they share (more or less) the ball handling duties, so there are "combo guard functions".
If that's true, the corollary is that it's not just a recruiting philosophy (pegs), but a playing strategy (holes). Which gets back to the discussion about whether you fit the pegs to the holes or vice versa.
I seem to remember that at Illinois Self even had 3 combo guards and not a real wing: am I exaggerating?
@konkeyDong In the little basketball I played, I remember our best player shouting "no bound!" whenever I (or someone else) hoisted up a jumper with no teammate near the rim. I remember thinking the same thing after a quick Greene 3.
Could one difference between a "quick shot' and a "bad shot" be what happens afterwards?
Maybe QA would be served if there were an "eventual PPA": what was the ultimate result of the shot, not just the immediate result?
Get the ball inside, then kick it out: the defense is now running out to defend, not collapsing to defend / rebound. Lateral screens don't have that effect. Can we measure that?
Self sometimes said Tyshawn's misses were like assists, since a teammate rebounded and scored. On the other hand, missed 3s can lead to long defensive rebounds that turn into transition offense. Can we measure that?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't analysis require drilling down on significant phenomena, even if it's quantitative?
@konkeyDong On Ellis not being a great teammate: this is just a detail, but please remember all the alley oop plays where Ellis was putting great screens on one of the post guys. He did little things...
@HighEliteMajor "are you really implying an excuse for losing to UNI?"
No, I was implying an excuse for not using the press, at least very much.
I understand there have to be adjustments during a game. Still, it seems hard to say "OK, we've done what we're most comfortable with and we're behind, so now let's catch up by doing what we're less comfortable with".
I would have preferred "win the opening tip (we did), get the ball into Cole for an inside bucket (we did), then press immediately" when they don't expect it. Get them on their heels, get them thinking, get them wondering about adjusting to something that we will then stop using.
Adjustment = reaction. Why not be proactive from time to time?
@HighEliteMajor What's a HEM? A guy that forgets Cole Aldrich had respiratory problems and couldn't get back on D very fast...
That being said, 3 hours before that game I was wishing we would open with a press just to get them off balance. Let them worry about adjusting to something we don't plan on doing for long anyway! Now there's a tactic.
@JayhawkRock78 Noah's dad wasn't very dedicated to training, though very talented, competitive and charismatic. His son's work ethic is all the more admirable.
@Crimsonorblue22
http://www.tapiolanhonka.fi/&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522brady%2Bmorningstar%2522%2Bespoo%26safe%3Dactive%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DH6K%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26channel%3Dsb%26biw%3D1067%26bih%3D71 ↗\0" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Playoff game yesterday ↗
@Crimsonorblue22 Thanks CB. In a comment under that article, someone asked about Tyrel Reed and Brady "Favorite Topic" Morningstar. Tyrel is studying at KU Med Center, and Brady is starting for a team in Finland.
@HighEliteMajor I try not to follow you too far down the Cynicism Trail, but still: suppose White transfers just in time to free up a spot for an incoming PG. That would mean he was encouraged to leave.
If he wants to transfer spontaneously, he should have already done it. He should already be looking around. No potential recruit would make any difference to his playing time.
At this point, if his transfer is announced I would bet we have two new recruits coming.
@jaybate 1.0 "I am against guys playing with these injuries, but I am in awe of them being able to."
My first reaction was to favorite this remark. I've decided to respectfully contest it.
If it's bad to play through these injuries, we should abstain from praising anyone who goes along with such a bad idea.
Remember Dizzy Dean? Came back too early from a little toe injury, messed up his delivery and hurt his arm. Remember Joel Embiid? Maybe hurt his back compensating for his knee injury. The "you can't make it worse" line is fecal matter; you can certainly make something else worse, it happens all the time.
If we want to see Selden at 100% next year, why didn't we want to see him at 100% this year!?!?! The injury apparently occurred in October!
If I could change one thing in Coach Self, I would exorcise his inner football coach and stop him thinking that "playing hurt" = manhood.
Repair Selden's knee, avoid Embiid's back injury, then replay the recent NCAA Tournament. Now tell me we wouldn't get past Stanford.
P.S. Rest or repair hurt players and your bench gets more development minutes...
@HighEliteMajor Thanks for recognizing my "merry-go-round". On the subject, how about the points I raised? It was not philosophy but circumstances that led to two OADs: Self never decided to become a soft-core Calipari. I also say that even if Self adopts your philosophy he should do it over time and not go "cold turkey".
I thought in the past you were OK with the occasional OAD, at least to fill a need (see Randle)?
Let's take it case by case: apply your philosophy to past years where we had presumed OADs and tell us what might have turned out better. The extreme case is Wiggins, the DBO (Done Before One). We might well have had about the same level of success without him and three bench players would have gotten more minutes for next year: fine. So, do we not recruit Oubre? Is he a DBO in your eyes? Whom exactly should we not recruit?
This discussion is a bit like my job: once you start talking about possible solutions you forget what the problem was.
What is the problem? What different result do we want?
No one seems to be complaining about our overall win-loss record, our Conference Championship streak or our Conference Tournament titles. I think the disappointment stems only from the NCAAs:
How many of those losses were OAD-related? Stanford, yes, but because of the OAD who didn't play, not because of the OAD who did.
Now how about a little more historical perspective: we had too many freshmen this year because we had too many upperclassmen last year! If you wanted fewer freshmen this year, then Releford should not have redshirted: this year we would have had one fewer freshman and one more sophomore.
To fix the root problem, we need to even out recruiting and avoid the boom/bust cycle. With all our freshmen, we're back to a bare cupboard in 3 years. OADs are a way of evening out the cycle! They will free up scholarships so in 3 years we'll have some sophomores and juniors on the roster.
To get back on an even keel in recruiting, we need to taper off OADs, not go on the wagon.
Now back to the problem: too much early NCAA failure, not enough late NCAA success. I'm with drgnslayr: what we are missing is PG excellence - whether it's concentrated in one guy or, as ralster prefers, spread among 2 or more combo ball handlers.
That being said, I definitely agree with HEM about the difference between "presumed" or "preseason" OADs and potential OADs. In the abstract, I would much prefer recruits who haven't made up their minds to leave before they even arrive.
@HighEliteMajor I was the one who came up with "OAD merry-go-round".
Conference champions only, 3-game format: home and away and the tiebreaker game at Sprint Center.
Hello, domination!
For me, Wiggins was our only OAD. I'm glad he came and wish him the very best.
Embiid was not OAD, he was WOW and OMG! Whether on offense or defense, you had to have one hand free at all times to pick your jaw up off the floor. Humor, attitude, energy, potential, unbelievably fast improvement: he was like a video game when you know all the Easter eggs.
Want to see a Dream Shake? Show Embiid some tape of Hakeem. Then show him some video of Withey and watch him immediately block everything in bounds or off the backboard. Want some fast breaks? Have Embiid patrol the glass alone and zip some outlet passes.
When Withey sat, it was a different game. Embiid was an even bigger game changer!
I will miss him more than all the mere OADs combined, and I will cherish his brief, shining moments at KU.
By the way, I don't count Ben as an OAD either. Loved Ben, the purity of his shot, his "little brother" attitude and his occasional explosion of athleticism.
@icthawkfan316 You mention Henry's effort on rebounding and defense. He also led the team in steals that season.
@drgnslayr what are you talking about? Did deadspin say Self invented the weave? I didn't see that. Didn't it come from Iba? As for the chop, you didn't say who invented it.
I saw the trotters back in the day and their weave didn't look like ours.
@DoubleDD "Blue blood" was a term coined to signify nobility, not as a virtue but as a birthright. The older your family tree, the bluer the blood. The "real" nobility in England came over with William the Conqueror. In France, "noblesse d'Empire" means those upstarts who got titles from that newcomer Napoleon.
It's too late to become a blue blood if you're not already - unless media folks forget what the expression means and use it to mean anybody who's had success in their lifetimes.
@REHawk Yes, and that is on Self too, no question. What isn't?
@konkeyDong We either have to do better in the Tournament or less well elsewhere: sell the Rules, tear down the Fieldhouse and stop winning so many games in the regular season. Maybe the problem is not underachieving in the Tournament, but overachieving beforehand. Get a #8 or #9 seed, then if you knock off the #1 seed you've already overachieved, plus you inherit the #1 seed's path to the Final Four.
Outside of this thread, which is mostly an expression of frustration, HEM has already suggested several remedies, the gist of which is Coach Self has to learn more from his mistakes, adjust and evolve. Sure, why not?
The immediate source of frustration is Self let us lose to Stanford. I won't argue that point, but suppose Self came through and beat Stanford: we're in the Sweet 16, big deal! HEM doesn't give a flip if we don't win the title.
No way we win the title without Embiid at full strength: that's my red pill. This wasn't our year to win it all, period.
So once the frustration becomes less acute, we'll be back to what can we do? I'd say we have a better chance of improving our point guard play than improving our coaching. Funny how important PG play was in the semi-final games; just a coincidence?
@HighEliteMajor The choice between alternatives of your choosing.
By the way, why mention Self and not Williams? 3 of the 6 championships you mention happened when Roy was coach and a fourth during Self's first season with Roy's recruits.
Your red pill and your blue pill are roughly equidistant from the truth as I see it. I choose blue just because I don't "swallow whole" your preferences concerning college basketball.
@HighEliteMajor You seem to have taken a blue pill of your own, if you imagine the only alternatives available are the ones you have described.
If you are the Thought Master and those are the only choices, I'll take blue.
Thanks to all who keep adding articles! Reading the recent ones on Oubre, Alexander and Turner, all seem to be open to staying more than one year. Turner says no matter what happens, he wants his degree. Good stuff.
I get the reasoning behind wanting 3- and 4-year players, but if you're one of the top 10 HS players and you're open to staying more than one year, I'll take ya. I think there's a significant difference between the "maybe OADs" like Selden and the "preseason OADs" like Wiggins - though the uncertainty may complicate recruiting...
@drgnslayr "Our alley-oop plays often come off the line, giving us just a taste of what is possible from that area of the court."
Yeah, but they work because Ellis is screening post defenders and pushing them up court. Is Ellis going to screen for himself?
Who mentions how effective a screener Ellis is on set plays?
@drgnslayr "how jacked up we were to get after it with UNC"
Right. Chalmers was gasping for breath in the middle of the first half. KU started that game with incredible energy.
@drgnslayr Correct me if I'm wrong, but Cole had about 8 really significant minutes his entire freshman year: against UNC and Tyler Hansbr*gh.
I don't know if Sasha started, but the 3 bigs had pretty comparable minutes.
@icthawkfan316 "Self will start the two best post players, sometimes it includes a true rim protecting center, sometimes it's two athletic 4s."
True, but when you don't have the rim protector you need better perimeter D. Arthur and Jackson played with 3 terrific perimeter defenders, and the Twins had Brady of course ;)
@wissoxfan83 "Why did he have a whistle around his neck?"
I asked myself the same question at the time and no answer then or now, but I can still see it in my mind's eye: Brown to the camera's left, the ref to the right.