...we play through stuff like this at Kansas.
Yeah, but usually with immediate access to a topflight medical staff and equipment (such as masks).
But you're right, it is a strong message.
The only stronger one would be "play and win or you'll fly back on coach". Every player would have a broken nose from hitting it with his knees.
...while the opinion of the only person with all the information on the players and the one who knows what goes on behind closed doors is ignored, dismissed or labeled as incompetent.
I don't get the impression that Self's "opinion" is treated that way.
I suppose that's "the harm" I was asking about: you think the way some posters express themselves is dissing Self. I don't see it that way, in particular in the present discussion.
@JayHawkFanToo OK, but we enjoy trying to understand what is going on. Some decisions are easier to understand than others. I didn't understand why Svi's minutes went way down, and I was pleased to read an explanation. I didn't understand why Mickelson didn't get more minutes and I still don't.
Maybe Self is successful partly because he is smart enough to listen to others, such as his assistant coaches. That would mean that even he doesn't "trust his judgement" blindly.
What's the harm in this discussion?
@JayHawkFanToo said:
I would have Thought that Andrea would be traveling with the team...
I'll bet she would have gone if it weren't for all the guys who can't play but can train. Notice Graham who can't rehab is in Korea but Greene who can rehab is at home working.
Hudy has to stay home for Greene and the aliens.
As an example, @ParisHawk tries somehow to compare Traylor to Releford, stating, “As far as Jamari, yes there is criticism of his contribution and some people want him to see the floor less. Those same people love a 5-year player like Releford.”
You misread my statement. I didn't try to compare Traylor to Releford. I simply meant just because someone criticizes Traylor doesn't mean he's against 5-year players in general. The rest of your post illustrates what I said - or at least meant.
This is business
To some fans more, to some fans less.
I'm for giving the minutes to the players who can best help us win. Your arguments today address that.
I was not for offering Paschal Chukwu a scholarship to be taken away from an upperclassman who had already redshirted. I was a bit surprised by the amount of speculation about that. (Not saying you speculated, just indicating my own attitude.)
@Bosthawk I sympathize with your post, but let me try to "walk you back from the ledge", so to speak.
I suggest most posters were favorable to the WUG and thought that it would have positive effects on recruiting and preparing for the season. Those extra benefits are not as great as many hoped: we recruited a large portion of foreign players and two Americans got hurt, so the WUG team will not be exactly the same as the regular season team.
All that being said, I don't remember anyone saying without those extra benefits why go? At most very few. If they did, I agree with you the WUG is a good thing whether it helps us selfishly or not.
As far as Jamari, yes there is criticism of his contribution and some people want him to see the floor less. Those same people love a 5-year player like Releford. There was talk about forcing someone out to make room for Paschal Chukwu (which I didn't like either) but that's a rare exception on this site.
The Adidas thing is one more example of the theme "we're the good guys so we should win more championships". Behind the negative (implicit complaining) lies a positive that those posters cherish college ball and want "the right way" (and KU) to prevail.
OADs "protecting the merchandise": I can see you don't like to read that. I think there was a generalisation from Wiggins. Maybe that will die down when Diallo struts his stuff.
Bottom line, there has been some cynicism expressed but really concentrated on a few subjects and due to a small number of influential posters - who also bring great positives to the site!
You did well to express your reaction. I hope you continue to read and react.
@HighEliteMajor "Selden is a poor ball handler" but he might be a pretty good rebounder if allowed. That was the message from Coach Self that @KUSTEVE quoted.
Historically, the best Self teams at KU have gotten good rebounding from the 3 spot (see Rush). Selden at the 3 with good long range shooting and good rebounding would be very good to see. Also he can pass.
"Compliment" is a good word.
"Complement" is a good word too.
If we keep on using one for the other, we shall soon have one clumsy word instead of two good ones.
"Compliment" and "complement" complement each other!
I'm not a grammar fascist. I don't come here correcting every misspelling or grammar mistake, or trying to raise the subjunctive from the grave.
This is a case of usage, plain and simple. If we keep on using one word for the other, that usage will become "right", and the language will be a tiny bit poorer because of it.
Let's say I'm a "language ecologist", trying to avoid erosion.
Checking the stats, I see that our bigs combined for 34 rebounds: that's 17 rebounds per 40 minutes.
Even with more possessions because of the faster clock, that seems pretty good.
Jamari led with 10 rebounds in 19 minutes, which looks fine until you see that 6 were offensive. He still needs to show he can rebound on defense.
@Crimsonorblue22 said:
I think if it did come up and it did, it was agreed upon that Self wasn't told.
You make a very interesting point there - though I have no idea whether to believe it. It just goes to show how little we may really know about what goes on.
If that happened, what might the scenario have been:
or
Snacks: "Can't we just keep this quiet? No one will know if we don't tell them"
Self: "OK, but you take the risk. If it comes out you never told me."
Either way me no like.
They aren't really the University Games, but the college student games. You play for your country, not your school's country.
It was always known that non-Americans would not be eligible. It is a bit surprising that Self had more success recruiting non-Americans.
Without the injuries to Greene and Graham we wouldn't be having this conversation.
So I blame the injuries more than our international roster.
Right now all I care about is no one getting hurt over there: go to the hospital and get MERS, no thanks.
@ralster said:
2008's AAA-rated guard trio of Robinson, Sherron, Chalmers made it a habit of making Kaun and Jackson (for example) look good scoring easy buckets.
Kaun didn't look good until he figured out how to catch the effin' ball - which happened about halfway through his senior season. Very strange. Result: 6 for 6 against Davidson. Without that, no NC.
@Kip_McSmithers said:
Makes one wonder what the real reason is doesn't it. Now my OAD conspiracy isn't so crazy?
"Crazy" is your word not mine.
I just don't see how any recruit could imagine Self preferring an alumnus to an incoming player he could coach up all summer.
I'm curious precisely because I don't see any plausible explanation, including yours.
@Kip_McSmithers hadn't seen your link. Yes, EJ was born after jan 1 1990 so apparently eligible. Point taken. Now I'm curious too.
@Kip_McSmithers not buying. It was clearly stated current and incoming players had priority over alums. There is no OAD subject.
Would you mind saying who you think is eligible and quote the age limit rule you are referring to? You should offer some evidence to back up your interpretation.
@Kip_McSmithers I get it, you thought it was a deliberate omission, not negligence. Your previous post didn't make that clear.
@Kip_McSmithers Self was quoted last month as saying EJ, Travis, TT were all too old per the rules. I know some here have interpreted the rules so as to allow them, but Self apparently reads them differently.
Right or wrong, Self chose not to reach out because he thought they were ineligible, not because he was negligent.
@drgnslayr The medred and blue Jayhawks :anguished:
To compete with Texas, will KU have to allow players to carry guns on campus?
@drgnslayr said:
I wonder if it is really a partially torn quad or just a sprain or strain? Partially torn quads typically take longer than 3 weeks to heal.
I hope it isn't really torn.
They said 3 weeks of immobility, not 3 weeks of healing.
There are different things being said that make sense, but that don't seem to mesh.
@jaybate-1.0 started all this by saying Svi is the key. Why? Because the key position is the 3.
@RockkChalkk says Svi is not the key. Why? Because the key is not the position but the player who most improves. Either that or because the biggest hole is not the 3 but the 4/5.
I don't think @jaybate-1.0 meant that Svi was the most likely to improve, but his improvement is the most necessary because we haven't replaced Oubre and Greene is hurt.
To me, our point guard position is gold and our 4 is silver. For both the 5 and the 3, there is hope not certainty.
As for the 2, the incumbent is a disappointment so far and has blocked others from taking over and doing better.
Maybe Selden is the key! For if he doesn't improve there is little hope someone else will get the chance to replace him.
@REHawk Self's playbook didn't hold back Embiid.
Here's what is strange to me:
Some positions require more experience to be good, such as PG
In Self's system, bigs need to learn and do a lot, both on offense and defense: catching, passing, back to the basket, screens, hedging...
Historically, the 3 is the spot where a freshman can start and shine.
So how could Embiid, in a position that normally requires experience under Self, outshine Wiggins who played the position most favorable to freshmen?
Maybe Wiggins' 3 point shooting wasn't fearful enough? Whatever the reason, his game was as repetitive as Embiid's was exciting.
@JayHawkFanToo You're right, I misspoke.
@JayHawkFanToo Quality big or not, Cole didn't play significant minutes. That was my only point.
By significant I mean real contribution, even if limited, to a win.
Name one game other than UNC where he had an impact.
The issue is not Cole's quality but Self's. As you said he had 3 better bigs so they played and Cole didn't. Other coaches have depth, Self has reserves.
@drgnslayr At least there was Releford for a few years. Man was money on the break, the master of angles. He also looked good in the half court on slashes to the rim, the few times he tried.
@oldhwkfan This is not meant to be a political post. It is about how you get in trouble with the "law".
Al Capone was convicted of tax evasion on his revenue, not of the crimes that were the source of his revenue.
Nixon was in legal trouble just as much for the Watergate coverup as for the break-in itself.
Clinton was in legal trouble more because he lied under oath than because of what he lied about. (He was forced to testify under oath about his sexual activities while being investigated for sexual harassment.)
So both men lied. One lied about the apparent abuse of power to retain power, the other lied about his sexual activities. One got forced out of office, the other was acquitted and could have been re-elected if third terms were allowed.
I won't compare Watergate to hypothetical corruption in sports: that probably would be political...
@DoubleDD Your questions are fair. I thought you were exaggerating when you said a new player didn't get any credit from us, and you seemed to repeat yourself as if what you said didn't get enough respect the first time around.
Sorry if I put you off.
As far as the "objectivity" post, I didn't mean to call out an individual poster and maybe I should have said so.
I get the impression over the years that sometimes posters forget the differences between seasons. Cole was great but not his freshman year. TRob did not contribute his freshman year and played about 15 amazing minutes a game his sophomore year, then exploded as a junior.
Lots of bigs didn't contribute until later in their careers.
If I say this, it's only to be fair to the new guys by moderating my expectations. That may not be the best attitude. Maybe your positive outlook is better.
I'm surprised you talk about "just nothing and worthy of my wrath". Did I really deserve that? If so, my apologies.
@jayhawkbychoice said:
@drgnslayr Yeah, we just didn't have the post depth that year. That was probably the reason for all the double teaming early in that game. In 08 we had 4 quality bigs and 20 fouls to beat the hell out of Hansbrough.
Sometimes I don't understand the lack of objectivity of memory. Cole was a freshman and played about 8 important minutes the whole season. Yes, they were all against Hansbrough and it was a fabulous moment, but he was not a "quality big". We had a 3 big rotation. How much did he play against Memphis?
2008: 3 man rotation, Cole got less than 10 minutes / game.
TRob's sophomore season: definitely 3d man, there wasn't a 4th.
We have been better when we could go 3 bigs deep than 4. We go 4 deep when we don't have 3 of the best quality.
Same for the smalls: we went 4 in 2008, we go 5 when we don't have 4 we can depend on. And don't mention Rodrick Stewart, he got all his minutes when Rush was injured, then hardly played once Rush came back.
Please don't take this as criticism, it's just that I prefer sticking close to the facts. Depth past 7 is plan B , depth past 8-9 is plan C in case of injury. Self can't even bring himself to give the young guys development minutes.
Self says in Korea everyone will get 20 minutes a game. Remember that and compare to reality later this summer. I hope for once he listens to himself.
@jaybate-1.0 said:
Chalmers and Devonte are about the same height
Chalmers 6'2", Graham 6'0".
RussRob 6'1", Frank 5'11".
So let's meet in the middle: +4 inches total for the Champs.
This just underscores your point: when have we succeeded with two guards that short?
I’ve wondered a little about moving Selden to the three
In that case what about rebounding? We can't expect Diallo to get every rebound every minute...
@jaybate-1.0 So much depends on Svi because we're through depending on Selden. If Selden were what we hoped when he was recruited, we wouldn't be talking about 2 short guards.
By the way, Chalmers is "short" but 4 inches taller than Frank.
@wrwlumpy oh what was his name? Roy recruit, freshman Self's first year. 3?point shooter and dunker, got knifed outside a bar and transferred to NM. Drafted by the Celts. I know all this and can't remember his name. Yes, Walmart trouble the summer before he came.
Self's home includes a secondary residence for visiting parents/inlaws. He also entertains lots of people.
Kind of an indication he doesn't mean to move right away...
@DoubleDD said:
...Diallo bested the best not once but twice and he gets no credit among the KU faithful. Mindboggling to me.
Maybe you're the one getting less credit than you want.
Since before this site existed, I have seen too many posters expect too much too quick too soon from freshman players.
Diallo is a great recruit and I am sure we are all hopeful he will do well. Out of respect for him and for my blood pressure, I prefer "hope" to "expectation". I will be just as happy as you if he meets your expectations, but maybe less disappointed than you if he doesn't quite meet them.
Thanks for moving on from the Embiid comparison.
Jordan couldn’t make it in baseball… not even close. Then… he couldn’t make it back in the league.
Wow! 3 NBA championships after baseball and he couldn't make it back in the league? What would it have taken?
@REHawk I could be wrong, but in my memory the "quick yank" is a bit more prevalent for wing players - although Cliff did get yanked some...
Maybe the biggest factor in pushing a Big off the court is foul trouble. If Diallo picks up two quick fouls he's going to the bench no matter how terrific his motor is. TRob had just as big a motor his freshman year but fouled a lot and played very little.
Kevin Young was a transfer with college experience, so he knew how to channel his energy.
Whether we like it or not, Self will use the bench as a teaching tool and will not hesitate to play experienced Bigs with limited talent who have bought into his system.
@DoubleDD You are replying to 3 folks at once, so I'm not sure which parts are addressed to me.
I don't see the point of comparing Diallo and Embiid. If you do, then remember Embiid's footwork, offensive moves and outlet passes among other things - plus what his absence meant to the team at the end of the season.
Oh, I guess I do see the point: Embiid was one of the very few bigs to impact a Self team in his freshman season, and you say Diallo will have a significant impact this season.
We'll see. If he does, you will have been proven right and I will have a pleasant surprise. If he has the usual year of a highly ranked freshman big in Self's system, I will not be disappointed.
@globaljaybird I agree. I never advocated someone else giving up his scholarship for Chukwu. I just mentioned it as a possibility. It makes as much sense as chasing someone off the team, which I like even less.
@JayHawkFanToo said:
If Diallo stays healthy, I can see a huge upside...maybe a TRob sophomore but not quite Junior like contribution.
You may be right and I hope you are, but in general I think we tend to get too hopeful about these freshmen, especially the bigs.
TRob had Danny Manning to teach him moves, which he occasionally executed as a freshman. He also drew lots of fouls per minute, but fouled just as much.
"If Diallo stays healthy, stays out of foul trouble and plays defense consistently enough to earn significant minutes" - that would be a less risky proposal.
TRob played 15 minutes a game as a sophomore; is that enough for you from Diallo this next season?
If you think an OAD big can "get" D1 ball and Self's system in one season, the OAD Merry-Go-Round must not make you dizzy.
Again, you may be right but I would rather moderate my expectations and be pleasantly surprised.
@globaljaybird said:
@ParisHawk Why not? Why couldn't Chukwu get a student loan for a year then go on scholarship & after playing hi lo ball for 3 years then easily payoff the loan while playing pro ball?
Why not what? Are you sure you didn't mean to reply to someone else?
If you are replying to me, please quote me so I can understand the context.
All I have ever said is, the rules don't say Chukwu has to pay his own way, the rules say maximum 13 scholarships. Self could "nudge" someone out, get Chukwu to pay his own way, or get someone else to pay his own way.
I don't see anyone who could be "nudged" without losing a year of eligibility, which Self has not made anyone do yet. As far as someone else giving up his scholarship, I have no idea who that could be but others have mentioned possibilities.
As far as Chukwu walking on next year, I have absolutely no objection.
@KUSTEVE said:
I think Diallo will have the same impact that Embiid did.
Absolutely no way, I say that and will never back down. Embiid's season had three acts:
- Act 1: playing not hurt
- Act 2: playing hurt
- Act 3: not playing.
Act 1: Diallo will be nowhere near as good as Embiid.
Act 2: Diallo healthy won't be as good as Embiid hurt.
Act 3: Diallo will be much better than Embiid, I should hope.
So Diallo will never have "the same" impact, but much less or much more depending on the date ;)
@KUSTEVE said:
Withey couldn't make a jump shot to save his life, but he sure could dunk. Same with Embiid.
Withey made 100% of his 3s at KU ;)
Seriously, Embiid could always shoot some.
@konkeyDong said:
I just think [Perry would] be the most logical choice to start with if you were going to go that route.
Is that because he would pay in-state tuition, which is much cheaper than out-of-state?
@HighEliteMajor said:
@ParisHawk I'm not understanding what your trying to differentiate there on one point. White was forced out. And you say "White was allowed to graduate, just not at KU." I don't get it. All of the kids that might be forced out could graduate somewhere else.
Yes, but not on an athletic scholarship.
But I get your point. You are saying that Traylor and Mickelson would be stuck -- they couldn't go anywhere else, D-1, and play. I agree.
So no scholarship - and because of that, probably no graduation.
We don't know where Self draws the line yet.
I would hope he draws the line at making someone lose a year of eligibility - in which case no Lucas, Mickelson or Traylor.
On having someone give up their scholarship, you said you "won't name him out of respect for you .." -- what do you mean?
Just a little joke: it was Brady ;)
@BeddieKU23 Not saying they would, but in theory it is possible.
Actually, I shouldn't say "give up" a scholarship. A scholarship is granted one year at a time. There is no guarantee of renewal.
Again this is theoretical.
@BeddieKU23 said:
... at this point he would have to pay to be here. ...
Someone would have to pay, not necessarily him. Anyone else could give up his scholarship for a year.
@HighEliteMajor What Self did is fact. "Zero conscience" and "coldly" are your interpretations.
White was "allowed to graduate", just not at KU. In other words, he was not simply discarded but put in a position to transfer while keeping a scholarship and all his years of eligibility.
Tharpe was dismissed from the team for disciplinary reasons. Yes, it did free up a scholarship at just the right time.
If someone like Greene transfers, that would be like White.
If Mickelson graduates and transfers, that would be like Tarik Black.
I don't believe Self at KU has ever caused a player to leave and lose a year of eligibility, except for Tharpe. If he does that for Chukwu, I will be disappointed.
I believe he has asked a player to give up his scholarship for a year - I won't name him out of respect for you...
Anyone - not just Chukwu - could go without a scholarship next year and KU would be legal.
@jaybate-1.0 Greene will be available for the entire season, at least in SelfSpeak.
Mason may improve.
Graham is likely to improve: college PGs generally improve the most between freshman and sophomore seasons.
Svi is likely to improve.
Overall, we could be about as good on the perimeter (1 through 3).
Yes, the 5 is a problem.
How can this lineup be an inside/out team?
I realize this is all speculation and with good will, but I am a bit uncomfortable with all these posts about who can we get rid of to take Chukwu.
Coleby is the new Mickelson: will we jettison him in two years?
I'm not telling anyone what to post or not post. I am simply taking position with those who want to take good care of our current players.
@RockChalkinTexas said:
don't assume I was one who was doing the drooling.
I most definitely did not. That's why I borrowed your napkin.