🏀 KuBuckets Archive

DoubleDD said:

It appears that the latest FBI investigation has caused Langford to look else where.

Your comment makes one wonder: cui bono?

Who, among non-victims, might benefit from the reputed FBI/DOJ process underway communicated, as it has been so far in media, and as the coverage pertains to Self and KU basketball within KUAD, as opposed to the University of Kansas, the last of which (the University Kansas) coverage indicates the FBI identifies as a "victim"? (Note that KUAD is a distinct incorporated entity from the University of Kansas; i.e., it is reputedly a 501.c3 not-for profit corporation long ago spun off from the University of Kansas. Note also that KUAD's not-for-profit spin-off status is reputedly typical of many, if not most, D1 athletic departments and state universities in D1.)

Who benefits (if any) from recruits previously considering an adidas-contracted program and coach reputedly leaning away from an adidas-contracted program and coach, at a time when some media coverage portrays said program and coach as being under some kind of cloud of an investigation apparently without presenting evidence of wrong doing by Self and KUAD? Who benefits at this time of the recruiting process this year?

A related question might be: would those non-victims now benefitting (if any) stand to benefit as much from the FBI/DOJ process, if the portion of the FBI/DOJ process that has referred to Self and KUAD had been deferred (and/or reported differently) unless/until evidence of wrong doing by Self and KUAD were discovered to have been part of the victimizing of KU?

You note the coverage so far appears likely to have discouraged Langford from signing with Self, and so it appears logical to extrapolate, if you were correct, that it might discourage some other recruits from considering signing with the adidas-contracted Self and KU basketball program, too.

One wonders: cui bono?

Finally, it appears reasonable to note here that one probably ought to keep separate and distinct in one's mind the FBI/DOJ process, which appears (so far) a legitimate, if perhaps tardy, law enforcement activity, with media portrayal of Self and KU basketball, which appears possibly to make one wonder who benefits?

Ad astra per aspera.

Rock Chalk!

@HighEliteMajor

One wonders sometimes.

The issue here appears NOT to be about whether Self and KU and adidas are bending and/or breaking NCAA rules.

I have NEVER read a book about college basketball recruiting that did not say something to the effect that MOST D1 SCHOOL'S BASKETBALL PROGRAMS ENGAGE IN ACTIVITIES RELATED TO RECRUITMENT AND PLAYER ELIGIBILITY THAT BEND AND/OR BREAK SOME OF THE NCAA REGULATIONS.

If I recall correctly, Jay Bilas, commentator, attorney, and former college basketball player at Duke, said in an interview something to the effect that most schools have always had players that were not eligible playing and that many players have long gotten incentivized in various kinds of ways not consistent with the rules.

(Note: Bilas also said that the NCAA wants to use the players BEFORE anyone else gets to use the players and doesn't much care about how players get used after the NCAA is done using them. That was a pretty damning indictment of the motivations of the NCAA even after one takes into account that Bilas said a lot of the NCAA officials are nice persons.)

The question rather is whether Self and KU are bending and/or breaking the rules sharply more than is customary among, say, coaches and schools contracted with NIKE. If Self and KU were, then the FBI would probably be warranted in leaving an impression of Self and KUAD as a compromised coach and a compromised program? But not if not.

Why?

Why shouldn't Self be like the only kid with his hand caught in the cookie jar? Why shouldn't he be singled out and punished? Well, because for the metaphor to fit, Self would appear to be one of nearly 300 plus kids with their hands in the same cookie jar. None of them are in hiding, while Self and KU alone in front of the jar. All 300 plus cookie bandits are right there in plain sight of the FBI, same as they have been in plain sight of the NCAA. If the FBI is going to haul Self and KU in for investigation and leaking, then why not the other 299 cookie bandits too? What gives? Is the FBI understaffed? Does the director of the FBI need KU fans to go out and start helping them by making citizen arrests of the 29? Go figure!

Clearly, if Self were bending and/or breaking the rules sharply more than is customary among, say, coaches and elite schools contracted with NIKE, then we would expect for Self to have had signed 12-15 OADs the seasons when NIKE-UK and NIKE-Duke had 10 and 9 respectively.

But that is not what we have observed. Instead, Self has appeared to have had significantly fewer OADs those seasons, and Self has appeared to have had vastly fewer OADs at the 1 and 5 positions. Self has also appeared to have had to make do with increasing numbers of 4-star players, also.

Clearly, if Self were bending and/or breaking the rules sharply more than is customary among, say, coaches and schools contracted with NIKE, then we would expect for Self to have had 8-10 highly athletic > 39% three point shooters (including one each at the 4 and 5) and ranked between 75 and 100 in a year when NIKE-Villanova had six such players.

But that is not what we have observed.

What we have observed is that Self had 3-4 such highly athletic high percentage three point shooters and none at the 4 or 5 positions.

There is no escaping the following logic: If Self and KU were cheating sharply more than other coaches and teams, he would be getting significantly better and significantly more desirable players than the other coaches and schools.

He hasn't been getting the results that the reputed cheating would probably yield, so something else appears to be driving the investigations of and leaks about Self and KU.

And that brings us back to trying to better understand the role of the Petroshoeco-Agency Complex and the Media-Gaming Complex in all of this.

(Note: as always, I am just a fan and a layman opining about basketball and events surrounding it. I am not qualified to register a legal opinion about what is going on with Self and KU in the face of this investigation. I can only say I remain baffled by what little I have learned about it so far. )

@HighEliteMajor

Any pair of athletic 6-9 to 7-1 players that hav the strength, mobility and hops that Nova's bigs had, plus their three point shooting abilities, is hands down the best pair of players to sign, even if the apparently phony baloney ratings systems are hiding them with fake labeling somewhere south of Top 75, unless one already has three of such players on the roster already.

A pair of athletic three point shooting bigs is trump in basketball bridge.

Self nibbled around the edges of this with the Morri, but he had not yet stripped of the inside out blinders.

Bo at UW foreshadowed this with Frank Kaminsky coupled with trey shooting wings.

But Jay with his sand bag-ranked 6 highly athletic > 39% three point shooters, including his 2 highly athletic 3 point shooting bigs, kicked the door down.

Self and KU have to get the Top 100 ranking phonies to sand bag rank not just six highly athletic trifectates for Jay, but six more for Bill.

Its only fair!

Do board rats still think it was just a "coincidence" that Nova had the six "sub 75" highly athletic outside shooters?

(NOTE: all board rats that resent allusions to tragic events explained with absurdly improbable official stories, skip the next paragraph and resume reading there after.)

As perhaps remarked on in the past, that borders on being a World Trade Center scale coincidence, a Dealy Plaza one-gunman from behind sized coincidence, a Saddam buying Niger yellow cake sized coincidence, a single Las Vegas shooter sized coincidence, a Douma chemical attack sized coincidence!!!!

Its like saying it was a coincidence that UK and Duke had 9 and 10 OADs on their rosters.

I mean, man, was it a infinity minus 1 sized coincidence!!!!!

If it rumbles like a dump truck, and blows smoke out of a stack like a dump truck, and it leaves Ring tracks in March, like a dump truck, shouldn't we at least hypothesize that its a dump truck?!!!! :-)

Hey, here's a new hypothesis for everyone. It takes the form of a forecast that can be confirmed or refuted in ten years; i.e., its verifiable. Alas, it may not be repeatable.

It ain't easy being Albate 1.0 Einstein, but here goes.

Hypothesis: 10 years from now, some Federal investigative agency will investigate a non-Nike executive for giving obscene amounts of money to six highly athletic three-point shooting players, ranked south of 75, including two between 6-9 and 7-1, to influence them to attend a single "victim" school; this will come on the heels of Nova winning five national championships with three point shooting teams with players ranked south of 75 including two 6-9 to 7-1 trey shooing bigs on every ring team, all in the previous ten years.

Aw, just having a little off-season fun here.

Can't help but perseverate a little on Nova and Jay as Self strings and bailing wires together a bunch of highly athletic two point shooters.

Rock Chalk!

@dylans

Based on your post, I reckon you will probably just skim over the following and not really take it in, but I will throw it out there just the same, as it may be read and taken in by some others.

FYI, I'm not airing things here, but its okay with me if you are in "airing" mode. While you are airing, I am just opining on sports, politics of sports, and making a few fan comments in response to a thread I did not start. I've been away for awhile.

Next, I find (and have found) it a little distasteful and disrespectful that you have appeared to endorse the status quo the FBI is reputedly investigating by the discourse you have apparently chosen to engage in and apparently chosen NOT to engage in. The portion that you have refrained from; i.e., the portion that you find distasteful and disrespectful, seems to imply a tolerance of at least some of the current politics of sports; this seems distasteful and disrespectful on your part.

Next, congratulations on not banning someone; that's what the country has come to--I feel obligated to praise someone for tolerance of allowing others to write about what matters to them. Regardless, kudos to you for resisting the temptation to ban discourse.

Next, I guess there's no accounting for taste. To reiterate, I find it somewhat distasteful and disrespectful, and maybe even a little disingenuous of some others (not you in particular), generally, to ignore the political dimensions of sport affiliated with public universities and involving the exploitation/education of young men and women--especially in regards to distributions of certain kinds of players reputedly based on reputed petroshoeco-agency complex dynamics.

I notice you couch the politics of sport in Democratic and Republican terms, which may be sufficient for you to feel distaste and disrespect, but seems reductive to me. FWIW I view the politics (maybe Legal-Political dimensions would be a better term) of sport in broader terms than Democrats and Republicans. To me, sport has a politics all its own that may be discussed. And then on top of that, or rather, insinuated into that politics of sports, appear to be the politics of Democrat and Republican, right and left, neocon/neolib vs. traditional Republicans and Democrats, bureaucratic politics of public education at Federal and State levels, grant politics, foundation politics, political economy involving infrastructure and research pork, racial politics, and politics of militarism, etc. I notice some or all of these aspects of politics impacting on sport and from time to time pushing college sports this way, or that, and impacting not only the game of basketball that I love, but also college sports more broadly, the university that I respect, and the young men and women student-athletes that I feel require not only cheering, but also some vigilant protection and advocacy for about what they are reputedly being subjected to based on the peculiarities of the institution of amateurism; an institution that is, I believe, fraught with potential for improper exploitation of these young men and women. I came to believe this way after reading a number of books on the subject, and after reading former director of the NCAA, Walter Byers, damning criticism of amateurism after he retired. I am not a sworn enemy of amateurism, but I believe it needs reform and vastly more oversight in order to protect the student-athletes from what has reputedly been going on apparently for a long, long time.

Since 1990, at least, when the late Indiana University Professor Murray Sperber published "College Sports, Inc.: the Athletic Department vs. The University," it has likely been clear to some of those that read the book that sports was either already engulfed (or in imminent danger of being so) not only by the traditional corruption that had long plagued it, but by a risk of back door access offered by private not for profit athletic departments capable of being exploited by oligarchs, and would be oligarchs, seeking to gain influence in the university, the regents, and the state government in agenda driven pursuit of benefits from playing the political economy game, among other things. This was not my insight. This was Professor Sperber's apparent concern. He was doing some anticipating and forecasting of where the existing problems he had documented at length might lead. In retrospect, the good professor appears to have had a serviceable crystal ball and some Windex.

Regardless, I suspect where we can agree on this stuff is this: we would both have preferred to have been fans over the years of a Division 1, where apparent petroshoeco-agency complexes did not apparently influence distributions of certain kinds of players with cash payments, as reputedly alleged by the FBI, to say nothing of other long reputed phenomena.

To you, to discuss the apparent existence of this political dimensions of sport reputedly being investigated by the FBI, and likely others beyond the scope of the FBI investigation, apparently seems distasteful and disrespectful.

To me, failure to discuss the apparent existence of this political dimension of sport reputedly being investigated by the FBI, and likely other dimensions beyond the scope of the FBI investigation, seems distasteful and disrespectful.

Again, I guess there is no accounting for taste.

But I am glad you took the time to respond.

I always enjoy hearing from you.

Self needs to sign a bunch of highly athletic three point shooters of the kind mislabeled by apparent Nike propagandists as Top 75 to Top 100
and lower, and sand bagged into Jay by the unmarked dump trucks. There is nothing lacking in next year’s roster that 6 > 39% trifectates including two at the post would not cure!!!

Just dial up Nike lean agents and ask for some of their highly athletic Top 75-100 3pt shooters that are apparently usually kept in the back for Nova. Problem solved!!!

@DanR

Now the two are written by you!

Progress!

@dylans

P.S.: I still don’t grasp red-blooded Americans fears about political discourse related to any subject. All activities have political dimensions, whether we speak of them, or not. Why ghettoize free speech about the political dimension of any field.? Why exempt the implied political status quo in any field from discourse? Don’t get this fear at all.

dylans said:

I disagree. I have absolutely no problem keeping politics, war, religion, or anything of significanct meaning completely seperate from my sports entertainment. Politics don’t even cross my mind until someone else brings it up during sporting events. I believe many people are the same way, it’s an escape - declining viewership numbers in the NFL support the - leave politics out of sports model.

Furthermore there is a politics section of this very site for that explicit reason. If you feel the need to politicize your sports post please do it there, where people will appreciate your efforts. Putting such posts in the general sports section irritates 1/2 the people, makes 1/4 of the people ashamed to be in the same political party, 1/4 of the people grab pitchforks to join in and it devolves from there.

————————

I don’t have a philosophical problem with separating them, or with keeping them together. I just cannot figure out how to separate them without implying endorsement of the status quo, which appears in need of cleaning up and reinstitution based on more sensible principles.

You are the one with the technical and feasibility problem. How do you separate them in a way that does not endorse the status quo of their implied legacy of togetherness. Its up to you to figure out how to separate them the way you like them with out endorsing the implied status quo. I don’t know how you can do it. I haven’t seen you do it yet, but maybe you will figure out how someday and share it with us.

Until then, your separation is endorsement of the implied status quo unity of sport and politics. And that’s a most troubling endorsement IMHO.

HighEliteMajor said:

@BShark No, it's not that simple. Sometimes sports and politics mix. Meaning, issues that relate to a topic overlap. What is so offensive? Sometimes debate and discussion is uncomfortable. This is a topic with a lot of depth and a lot of implications. We should embrace the discussion. If a topic bleeds into the political end, then folks can avoid that thread. While discussions will stray, this was related to the CBB rules and it was being discussed in a much broader context. That shouldn't be shut down because it's uncomfortable.

PHOF

I would even go farther: sports and politics are as inseparable as business and politics and war and politics.

Organized amateur sport largely exists to condition and order society to service of the oligarchy that has ordered our country, since the 1890s, and that President Carter has identified as having finally replaced our republic with an oligarchy.

Amateur sport is both sport and a political policy of social engineering a free and independent and self-governing nation to accept authoritarian organizational activities.

Has Stumpy joined Archie's staff in Bloomington?

If yes, maybe the FBI and DOJ should check The Stump's cell phone for calls regarding Langford.

Can't be too careful.

Wouldn't want IU to be a victim.

If I were Self, I might offer to play them home and home this coming season, and then when Marsha accepts, hold a presser and tell everyone, "C'mon, I was just pulling his chain. We're never going to play these low lifes!"

I am ready for Sosinski to come back out and play for the basketball team again next season!!!!

Sosinski was good luck for us and we need more of that. He was a also apparently a load at practice that got our bigs used to some contact.

Bill, bring him back!!!!!!

KU has had few guys that didn't play a lick their first season, even two, and then came back contributed big time.

Rock Chalk, Sweet Baby James!!!

"It sucks they are using KU as a the guinea pig or case study."

--@truehawk93

Cui bono?

@approxinfinity

No. Tried one game and it was like watching NIKE NOVA with quarters!

Imagine Doke shooting FTs in the NBA!

Yeeeee haawww!!!

I love me some off season!!!

:-)

@Kcmatt7

Is the compliance department legally located within the university that is a “victim,” or is it in the legally separate 501.c3 athletic department corporation with so far apparently unspecified “victim” status?

Is Bruce apparently the petroshoeco-agency complex's next coaching hope to unseat Self, after Shaka "Can't Win with a Footer" Smart has apparently failed them?

How about a little short stack for Brucie, eh?

Note: cui bono? if KUAD, a 501.c3 athletic department, reputedly independent of KU in certain respects (i.e., would KUAD necessarily be a "victim," as the Feds explicitly characterized the universities to be?) were tagged for something related to adidas' actions?

Over a period of say the next ten years, would the media-gaming complex and Division 1 exclusive of KU, make more money, or less, from TV revenues and gambling revenues, if KU never won a B12 conference, and never made it out of the first round of the tournament, versus KU winning another 10 straight conference titles and making it to the Sweet 16 8 times, and to the Elite 8 or higher 5 times?

Bill Self kind of appears a huge thorn in the side of the petroshoeco-agency (its not a Nike program) and the media-gaming complex (its not an EST program). Every year that goes by that Self survives and flourishes (82% winning, consecutive conference titles, Sweet 16 or deeper runs), appears to be like Spartacus leading a slave army through the country side flaunting it in the face of Rome.

Bill Self, and his band of NOADS (no OADs, the equivalent of a gladiator army capable of giving Roman legions fits, but not ultimately able to stand up to their full concentrated force) could only be dispatched with a Nike-Nova stacked with 6 >39% trey shooters. Yes, yes, let's be honest, Nike-Nova was just a new kind of stack. How many other coaches out there in NIKE land turned down 6 >39% trey shooters including 2 that were bigs? I cannot think of a single coach in USA that would have turned down 6 > 39% trey shooters, can you? Do you seriously think Bill Self would have turned down ANY of he 6 > 39% trey shooters on Nike-Nova? Do you Roy Williams, or John Calipari, would have turned down any, or especially ALL, of those 6 > 39% trey shooters?

Who believes 6 > 39% trey shooters including not one but TWO outside gunner bigs just coincidentally, by the grace of a Hail Mary, just coincidentally turned up at NIKE-NOVA?

Who believes that ONLY Jay Wright was smart enough to sign 6 > 39% trey shooters?

Who believes that out of 300 plus D1 programs, only Jay Wright was stupid enough to turn down 6 > 39% trey shooters?

I mean, come on! Bill Self was smart enough to sign AND PLAY three.

And when Bill Self had a chance to sign Kieff Morris, even back in the dark ages when he still ran the 3-2 high-low, Bill Self was smart enough to start Kieff and let him shoot treys.

Wouldn't Bill Self have signed 6 > 39% trey shooters that could guard like those guys could guard, if he had found them standing around not on a dump truck heading being delivered somewhere? I mean, the guy is running a 4-1 set the last two seasons.

If Bill could have signed one of those two trey-shooting bigs on NIKE-NOVA instead of signing a transfer like 30%-trey-shooting Dedric Lawson (and his brother), wouldn't Bill have done so?

Its a question at least worth asking.

I suspect this "universities are the victims" distinction means more than most laymen realize right now.

nuleafjhawk said:

All new recruits must bring with them to campus:
1) Their own shiny new vehicle.

2) Their own girlfriend/wife/both.

3) A fake ID.

4) Enough cash to pay up front for however long they are staying in college,.

PHOF

justanotherfan said:

The pace and space era has dawned. That's what the Warriors and Rockets have built. Spread the floor with four shooters and a PnR big man. Force the defense into impossible choices in space.

No, no, this is old think.

This is the idea that pace and space are what gets the points.

It is the reverse.

Pace and space is NOT the cause of the high percentage three point shooter.

The high percentage three point shooter at as many positions as possible is what makes pace and space work, or outside ball screening, or drive and kick, or what have you work.

Pace and space can be used to create driving as Self likes to do. But its futile to play pace and space if they are not going to call the fouls for the short treys. F.U.T.I.L.E.

The key is being able to score from anywhere on the floor in the high percentage three point range--anywhere that yield 3, not 2.

Two is a 1/3 stop...of yourself.

It is like blowing a 1/3 bunny.

This range is increasing. I could probably field a team of high percentage 3 point shooters at the NBA level that can pot the triceratops at 30-35 feet regularly and mix in a few out to 40 if we schemed for it.

Over time there are going to be three point shooting belts that various players will be recruited to and designated to shoot from.

Bigs will shoot corner treys.

Wings will shoot 25 to 30 footers.

Howitzer players will shoot the 30-35 footers.

And all will make 40-45%.

Specialization will come to trey shooting.

Certain guys will be best at coming off actions.

Certain guys will be do corner treys during pace and space, or in outside ball screening, or what ever else is invented.

Note: wait till some one with the brains of Tex Winter comes again and starts running the triangle entirely out in the different belts. It will just free up three point shots endlessly.

Every team will want both kinds of shooters and be able to run both kinds of offense in all the belts.

It is insane what will happen to traditional defense, when it has to guard two belts between 20 to 35 feet. The rules makers might even allow a 4 point basket for 40-45 footers. And as long range shooting emphasis increases we will eventually see dead eyes from 35-40 feet even without rules changes.

What we are talking about here metaphorically are the shells of an atom.

The ball and players will hop like electrons from shell to shell. Each shell will see different types of offense being run.

It likely will one day evolve to rebounding outlet passes and one pass to a guy quick released to receive the ball 40-45 feet from the basket to quick shoot an open look. That might become the most indefensible open look trey there could be.

Board rats have to understand that jump shooting mechanics are still mired in the 20th Century. We think either of set shots, or jump shots taken at the top of vertical jumps.

That will change.

There is no reason that a new kind of jump shot cannot evolve that de-emphasizes vertical jump and emphasizes horizontal/long jump; i.e, catching an outlet pass at mid court and one step jumping toward the basket from mid court to get the uncontested trey look. Imagine identifying the long and triple jumpers early and culling for the ones that can shoot. Then teach them to shoot "long jump" shots. This would be a version of a shooter that would shoot with accuracy from vastly greater distances.

We have barely scratched the surface of transfering jumping motion to forward direction to the service of long distance three point shooting.

Great leapers could do for three point shooting what they did for the lay up. They could turn three point shooting into a leap forward to use the angular momentum to become proficient at 40-60 feet.

This is all just about asking great athletes with good shooting eyes to do something differently, same as Hank Luisetti and a few before him asked great athletes to do something differently.

Absolutely no doubt in my mind that the 2-2-1 zone press would then have a resurgence. But then learning to run&jump shoot in the seams of the 2-2-1 would counter the counter.

It is such a great, GREAT game James Naismith invented.

It is the chess of athletics.

@justanotherfan

Choir preached to.

Absolutely, Nova's players were wonderful athletes.

Its old-think athleticism that is being eroded by the new way of playing.

There were wonderful three point shooting athletes that aren't in the Top 75, because they couldn't pass the eye test that is used to early identify and fast track the Top 25 players.

The Top 25 is based entirely on old think, on the rear view mirror, pre-2010 notions of athleticism--notions that grew out of the era when the way to win was to beat the other team into a bloody pulp and jump over it for short treys.

Those days were changed by the new rules on fouling designed to discourage muscle ball and "hack'n'slap all the time", and after the over correction, to discourage driving for short treys by averting eyes to no calling, especially against non NIKE-EST high seeds.

The moment the rules to diminish roughness were corrected and then revised to discourage not only XTReme Muscle (which has exposed Izzo for the overrated jerk he always was), but discourage driving for short treys, Nova's "shoot-treys-first-and-dunk-wide-open" offense with all five guys being 39% trifectates was feasible, not just an idea that should work mathematically in principle.

Remember, a number of coaches from the moment the trey was instituted have grasped the mathematical advantage of taking all treys. I forget where I read it now, but some coaches in backwater NAIA and small college women's basketball have used the all trey, all the time offense over the last 20 years with some success. But they were lost in the shadows of media coverage and largely overlooked as eccentrics.

The rules changes over the year had to evolve to the point that shooting threes was really the only way to get there points. Until the short trey was taken away, "old think" of a balance between treys and dues was the only way to go.

Jay Wright did not go all the way to all treys all the time. He has just reasoned that there is some number of treys more than an opponent takes that makes one almost unbeatable. And he has inferred that if one is shooting poorly from trey land one night, don't stop shooting treys, shoot MORE treys!

He also reasoned out that it was not enough to hold the 3>2 advantage in total treys taken. It was also important to smooth the phenomenon. Anyone with a stats background understands smoothing. The more guys you have shooting treys every night the less variance you are going to have. Reducing the peaks and valleys of team trey shooting by having more players shooting the trey dilutes the effect of one trifectate having a bad night. It is exactly the same as 2point coaches like Self wanting to spread the 2 point offense around among 5 starters-each scoring in double figures.

Lastly Jay was brilliant in grasping that the way to get stops in 3 > 2 was no longer limited to an all or nothing stop. In fact, what one wanted to do was to devise defenses and run defenses that suckered the opponent into shooting either mid range 2ptas (most preferable), or Quixotic short trey attempts. Jay understood that the short trey game was over 2 season ago at least. He was a genius at foreseeing this. Self sure as hell did not see it coming and in fact can't break his old habits of believing refs will call the short trey, if he just keeps ramming it inside. He was the same way once about feeding the post and b2b offense. Old habits die hard, I guess.

But the point of all of this is to say that Jay was looking for guys the the Top 25 really probably only accidentally had a few of, because of the obsolete eye test for Top 25 players.

Jay was looking for big strong Nike and Catholic leans that could zone guard and shoot the trey at each position. Duke and UNC and UK probably would not have ever recruited DiVincenzo, simply because of the eye test. Self would probably only have recruited him, if he were an in-state player.

What Jay has done critically depends on the swoosh on Nova's shoes. Only the Nike stable of players is deep enough to have an entire surplus team of sub 75ers eye-test failers willing to sign with a Nike school and let it play the offense and defense that Jay developed.

But think how many such Nike schools can emulate what Nova has done, even if KU cannot because of KU's adidas contract.

Shaka Smart and Jamie Dixxon and Chris Beard all should just trey-up and KU would never win another Big 12 conference title. Its that simple. If all three of them wsere adaptable enough to copy Jay Wright, then boom! KU would playing for second, or third each season in the conference. Post season? KU would soon be a perennial 2-6 seed.

Self has to keep going overseas for Svi Mikailiuks. He's got to find big and small trey guns. Self has proven he can find enough small trey guns domestically despite the shoe contract. Its the trey shooting bigs he is going to have the most trouble with.

May be KU can inject 6-4 to 6-6 trifectates with growth hormones and grow them up to 6-8.

In a few years, the eye test will change for the Top 25 and most of the great trifectates will be in the Top 25.

Self has often been at his best when his back is to the wall regarding the need to adapt. Certainly, this season he showed he is still the ranking genius of adapting to adversity and improvising tactics when strategy going in fails. I never worry about Self adapting to player adversity. I worry about him dragging his feet on the underlying principles of the game. The underlying principles do change from time to time, when new technology enters the game.

The jump shot.

The footer.

Five man trifectation.

And so on.

Gotta adapt again, or stop accepting invites to the Carney.

Self is a prisoner of his success.

.820, 14 conference titles, 1 ring, and 10M bones per year, blind him to: 3 > 2.

Jay lacked that success, but wanted it.

Jay acknowledged 3 > 2.

Jay now has 2 rings.

Bill still has 1.

Defense rests.

@chriz

Among currents?

I hate Coach K, because he gets the favorable entertainment value whistle, but he has to be at Number 1. He has 5 rings, the most wins, did it in a tough conference, and he still matched Self step for step in moves and counter moves at K's age. It amazing.

Wright is my number 2. Wright proved it on the floor against Self this past season. He is too good for Self, unless Self gets better and adopts Jay's better mouse trap. Even if Jay can't recruit enough trifectates and Self beats him, Jay will be better. Even if Self wins another ring with 20-25 trifectation ball, which seems an impossibility to me now, Wright has changed the game and he is who will be being imitated. He took the innovation crown from Self, who had worn it a decade. Jay has also done what he has done at a mid major. Self is the greater genius of basketball, but Jay is the better basketball coach. I can't tell you how that pains me to say it. Jay could not win with what Self has won with. Jay would have been .600 and no rings tops with what Self has coached with. Self has taken the 2012 team and the 2017-18 team to Final Fours other coaches, including Jay, would not have won a conference title with. But Jay figured out how to win rings. Jay figured out, while at a mid major. Jay figured out that 3 > 2 and then devised a way to be a champion twice in three years with it. Winning rings is finally the test of a coach. Can he pick a winning scheme and then when he has all the pieces required can he coach it to a championship. Period. Jay has done it twice. Jay > Bill...for now.

Self is number 3. I'm torn about not making him number 1. No one, including Jay, has had to face an apparent embargo as long as Self has appeared to have to. The man has proven he can beat anyone in big games, but Jay. And no one has won at Self's clip for as long as Self has. But rings are the ultimate test. If they aren't, then stop accepting invitations to play in the NCAA, and just start recruiting after conference season.

The rest of the coaches are coaching pygmies in comparison.

Next.

@Kcmatt7

Kieff Morris would have fit right in on this past year's Nova team.

Robert Horry of the old NBA would have been perfect for this game.

Steve Patterson of the old Wooden teams would have been a 45% trey shooter from the top of the free throw circle. He was deadtly.

There are just so many of these guys that could have played in the Nova offense, if they had not been marginalized for not passing the eye test and for possession of Top 75 and less athleticism.

And this is not a skin pigment thing.

I have long argued that African American players have suffered perhaps the most from the eye test. They eye test is about "athleticism" in a very narrowly defined criteria. I played with tons of African American players on the playgrounds that could shoot lights out, but not get up. They were screwed by the eye test same as many Caucasian Americans.

Self probably couldn't count on a quantum computer all the guys he has passed on 6-8 and over that could have made the corner 3 40% of the time, because they didn't pass his own eye test for "athleticism."

The game of basketball is a relentless liberator of hide bound thinking, of eye tests, and yes of prejudices, too.

The game of basketball, no matter how slow it is to come around, rewards those that find the way to score the most points. It has a history of outflanking the obstructions of every status quo sooner or later.

The three point shot is a form of athleticism. Period.

And for now, the refs call it pretty honest about the fouling. If you foul a trey shooter, its a four point play, or three if he misses. And the floor is so big beyond the stripe out to the 28-30 foot radius, it is VERY tough to deny open look treys acquired either by pull up after transition, or by a little action outside.

I LOVE BASKETBALL.

Especially during the off season, when we get to figure out what it all meant the previous season.

@wissox

So glad you recalled Kaminsky and Leurer. These guys are out there.

Bo was on the right track. He even had a passel of trifectates that one season. But like Self, he got to enamored with seeking balance between the short trey and the long trey. He conceived drive ball that Self borrowed and exaggerated into BAD BALL, and both got trapped in the success (to a point) that that their innovations enabled. They nibbled around at the edge of the idea of all trey shooters in the line up at once. Self had Markieff and Marcus, too. But they never went ahead and became a three point shooting team that spread the floor and tried to ONLY take uncontested dunks inside.

Frankly, Bo and Self laid the ground work for Jay; this is always how it is with progress.

Some have to get close, but fall short because their way of thinking has not yet completely made the paradigm shift.

Bo and Bill each harbored the hope of fairness officiating; that there could be short treys all the way to the Finals, if one were good enough at all phases of the game.

WRONG!

Sooner, or later, entertainment values appear to take precedence.

The beauty of what Jay figured out is that there IS a way to play that makes it so entertainment values, as presently enabled, cannot deny you your offense with no calls. The three point shot is the last protected form of scoring that a team/coach has control over. The team/coach get to decide how many open treys they want to take. Jay decided 40 was necessary to beat another trey shooting team whose coach was still laboring under the 20-25 3pta mind set.

If Self were to raise it to 30-35 3ptas, Jay would just have raided his 3ptas to 60-65 and still clobbered us. This is why I say that the asymptote for three point shooting is, without rules changes, going to increase to very near the number of possessions.

More and more trey shooters will be encouraged in junior high and high school, and fewer and fewer of them will be weeded out for lack of athleticism. Over time more and more of those gifted in late 20th/early21st Century athleticism will be culled early for those that can pot the 40% triceratop.

The 3pta asymptote will approach the total possessions minus some small percentage of uncontested dunks. The dunks will approach having to be nearly 100 percent made to be taken however, as the asymptote for the trey ascends and more and more 3 pt shooters fill the rosters at all positions.

The future is three.

REHawk said:

@jaybate-1.0 I would imagine that the Kansas Hoops coaching staff is bearing down on the search for a pair of such gunners. A recent LJW article appears to have tapped into that pursuit. The Nova game was indeed a shocker to the entire collegiate hoops world. At 15 minutes into that contest I just shook my head in abject wonder, figuring that the game had become something very different from most anything I had viewed in recent seasons. I know full well that Bill Self is anything but a quitter; but I think that after 30 minutes his brilliant basketball mind was already focused on designing a new type of squad for the near future. What he was seeing represented a major jolt to the strategists and tacticians who normally win so many Division 1 contests. Here's hoping he can affect change with a core of players who can and will quickly adapt to the challenges presented by Jay Wright and Co.

PHOF times 2

Wouldn’t it have been awesome to see Stephen Curry on that Nova team. Curry had to play the old style in college. Imagining Curry playing Nova style, is like imagining Big O and West in the trey era!

Oh my, I wasn’t expecting the corner trey by bigs to be the tipping point away from the late 20th/early 21st Century game!!!

Man, that DiVincenzo was one of the best guards I’ve seen in a long time!!

That guy could play ALL aspects of the new game superbly!

Seeing him must have been like seeing the first jump shooters, or the first athletic footers.

DiVincenzo did things out there I haven’t seen since that point guard at Michigan that wasted us. Only DiVincenzo was so much stronger and longer and seemed a better leaper. He was just so hard nosed and polished fundamentally, and understood the new game so well. He’s the new standard for the new college game, as much as Curry has been in the pros.

What a privilege it is to see great players do things the normal Top Hype 100 only dream of doing.

I hated losing to the Novacats, but man did I love seeing a new game being born. The old was getting a little stale and self satisfied.

Can he shoot 40% from trey out to 28 wing to wing and guard the trey stripe out to 28 feet?

Or is he 6-8 and up and shoots a 38% trey from the corner trey?

In short, can he do what DiVincenzo and Paschall did for Nova?

If not, he probably can’t win a ring against a NIKE-EST team that can.

There are NO LONGER many ways to win a ring against NIKE-EST teams, once the NIKE-EST teams become armed with the DIVINCENZO-PASCHAL MODEL.

Athleticism 22 feet and in is an evolutionary dead end, unless rules are changed to preserve such athleticism as an endangered species.

3 > 2 plus some uncontested dunks: it is the new E = MC^2 of the apparent NIKE-EST entertainment value basketball era.

The 28 foot open look trey by a perimeter player and the open look corner trey by a big are the only plays entertainment value whistles can’t interfere with.

All lobs appear obsolete, too. Contestable dunks appear out .

Athleticism within 22 feet is what you play, if all you care about are conference titles and concede to the DIVINCENZO-PASCHAL MODEL in the Carney.

A new day with a new way has dawned.

Until the rules are changed.

mayjay said:

@jaybate-1.0 Actually, Grimes rhymes with rhymes.

@Kcmatt7

Oh finish your degree, so you can lighten.

You remember “signs” in hypermodernity, right? You were wondering how was bate 1.0 ever going to fit that in?!

Here is how...

Signs are phrases, memes, and discourse not tied to anything in reality, just to other signs not tied to reality. Signs have replaced symbols in much discourse. Symbols are our form of speech where the symbol referred to something real.

See comments below in bracketed caps.

“Coach (Bill) Self lets his guards have a lot of freedom out there on the court. [SURE.]They play pick and rolls, a lot of isolations. [UM, ON WHAT PLANET THE LAST 5 YEARS?] You can shoot the ball midrange, pull-up threes,” [IF YOU MAKE 40% OF YOUR TREYS, OR IF NOVA IS SUCKERING KU INTO MID RANGE.]Grimes told Kels Dayton of Roundballdaily.com when asked about signing with KU. “I can play on the ball, off the ball. I think I can be a dynamic playmaker out there. I think I fit in really well next year.” [MARIO CHALMERS THOUGHT THE SAME THING AND BECAME A 2 GUARD. SVI THOUGHT THE SAME AND BECAME A 4. SELBY THOUGHT THAT AND PLAYED 3.]

Asked to compare himself to former KU guards Frank Mason and Devonté Graham, Grimes said: “I feel I’m a little bit of both. I’m a little bit taller, maybe a little more athletic. [TALLER? OK. MORE ATHLETIC THAN FRANK? SIGN, BABY, SIGN. Devonté … he can come down, pull-up, pull up for threes. I can do that as well. [AT 40% while running the team 40 MPG? SIGN, BABY, SIGN.] Frank (now with the Sacramento Kings) is really a hard-nosed guard, can get to the basket, draw a lot of contact, finish. I think I can contribute a little bit of both (while being) maybe a little taller.” [FRANK SHOT 40% AND GRABBED 10 BOARDS FROM THE POINT SEVERAL TIMES. HELLO!]

Quentin, welcome to Perris Island, Kansas, where young boots sometimes find the recruiters were exaggerating some.

But you could be a great one, if you stick around a few years and learn to make your bunk so a quarter bounces on it.

“Ain’t no since in goin’ home/

Jody got your girl and gone...”

Read more here: http://www.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article208304299.html#storylink=cpy ↗

(Note: love me some Quentin. Just kidding around here.)

nuleafjhawk said:

Anyone else wonder why Villanova shot 18 (or 19) 3 pointers before we took our first one??

This was the nub of it all.

Gunman said:

Self left Doke in the second half against OU and we lost. Doke couldn't make free throws. Self left Doke in against Villanova and we lost. Doke couldn't guard.

We won many with him in late too, but your remark was worth noting.

@nuleafjhawk

I do!!

I do!!

drgnslayr said:

@DoubleDD

Oh so true... but the thing is... it would actually be to Vick's benefit to have competition for PT. He needs to be pushed. He wasn't this year and so he was just allowed to play through a very poor conference season. Had we more depth, chances are Vick would have been benched early on and then we would have seen him hungry to see the floor again.

Many young players don't get it. They think it is in their best interest to find a big hole in someone's lineup guaranteeing them all the PT they can handle. WRONG! They need to be pushed. They need to fight competitively for PT. And if they won't do it in college, how easy will it be later if they are going for a pro career?

PHOF

@BShark

Again, for the Nova game our failed 1st half defense should have been simplified the second half to “stay with your man wherever he goes. No open look treys. Lose to 2s, not to 3s. Vick, Bridges is your man. Do what ever it takes to stop him.”

Silvio could have done the above in his sleep. Paschal wasn’t a put it on the deck guy. They weren’t ball screening him outside. No hedge defending. No switching. Say, “CHASE! Til u can’t anymore; then signal for Mitch.”

The defensive problem appeared that Self schemed something that would have taken a week of practice time to get proficient at. He misjudged once entering the game and by not going to straight m2m he apparently misjudged at half time.

He may have been blinded by his own strategy and committed the cardinal sin of Marine Corp strategy. He failed to let tactics replace failed strategy; ie, become strategy.

Self would have his insightful, logical reasons for having not changed, but in Marine Corp strategy sound reasons for having lost don’t count. It’s about adapting and exploiting the chaos created by your own failed strategy.

It is about: ADAPTING ANY MEANS THAT YIELDS ADVANCE NECESSARY IN THE MOMENT.

THERE WAS NO ADVANCING THAT SECOND HALF. THERE WAS NO IMPROVISING. THERE WAS NO DISRUPTION. THERE WAS JUST PASSIVE ACCEPTANCE OF MORE OF THE SAME.

The Marine Corp relieves major and tries captains. They relieve captains and try one Louie’s. The relieve one Louie’s with two Louie’s and so on down the ranks. Stasis is not accepted unless stasis itself is ordered.

What counts most in a route is turning tactics into strategy during the route. If failure is imminent or at hand, don’t just stand there, do something. Find a way to advance even a foot.

It is during routes that the enemy often suffers catastrophic success and experiences confusion from overrunning expectations. Use the confusion of its own success against it. No offensive can ever anticipate all the ways it is vulnerable to attack after unexpected success; this is why you never give up after a half like Nova had. But you also don’t keep attacking and defending the same way; that is playing straight into their hands!

Oh enough.

@dylans

Come, come, history refutes you.

Wooden won 10 in 11. Not random.

Knight won 3 in 11. More than random.

Coach K won 2 in a row and made it to another 2 FF 1988-1992 year stretch. Not random. He also won 3 more in 15 years. Not random.

Calhoun won 3 in 12 years. Not random.

It turns out there is far less randomness in the tournament than assumed, where the best coaches are concerned.

The randomness you attribute to the tournament largely exists in the uncertainties of recruiting and team building before the team starts the tournament.

It is actually quite impressively (and unsurprising given the bias created by seeding in favor of the better teams) less than random during the stretches the coaches can get the pieces required of a champion.

It is assembling the pieces of a champion, and avoiding injuries and ineligibilities, that are far more difficult to accomplish than managing the error factor of an off night in the tournament.

We now know Cal didn’t lose all those tourneys with long stacks due to randomness in the tournament at all. Cal just was not more than an average coach being gifted more talent than he could effectively manage, and frankly rarely the experienced players necessary for championships most of the time.

Good coaches with the right pieces for the way the game is then being refereed in the Carney, win much more than randomly.

MUCH MORE.

The tournament being largely a crap shoot is a wive’s tale, or better yet, an urban legend.

You give Coach K the pieces of a champion and he will win far more rings than a random walk.

Or Knight. Or Wooden. Or Calhoun. Or Jay Wright. Or I would argue Bill Self, if he were at a NIKE-EST school.

@dylans

Winning 2 rings in 3 years means Jay has reduced it to something less than a crap shoot.

@BShark

Yes.

And we had Silvio and Mitch who were highly mobile bigs.

@Fightsongwriter

I wouldn’t rule anything out at this point.

But Mother Doke did not seem any more happy with what she was witnessing than any other member of Jayhawk nation that second half.

Glad you contributed the thought.

I am concerned there may be no successful return to double post without both posts being able to can the trey.

Nova ran a double post with two stretch 4s. They even had a true 3. The even had a classic 2 guard. They even had PGs and combo guards. In short, they had all the classic pieces. But the decisive part was 6 trey guns > 39%.

KU may fatten up on cup cakes and conference opponents with a treyless quartet of bigs; i.e., “posts that no one has to guard out there.” One may even be a stretch 4 with a 30% trey that supposedly “no one can guard.”

But then basketball’s equivalent of the Guns of Navarone will arrive in Villanova jerseys and it will be lights out in the Champions classic or the Carney.

No amount of bigs and no amount of old fashioned athleticism apparently trumps six >39% trifectates with two of them bigs.

Even a full rotation of the choicest knives of Dr. J athleticism is not enough at a gunfight of DeVincenzo artillery.

3 beats 2.

Period.

It’s so simple. At a certain threshold number of trey guns on the floor, including two that can rim&post protect on the other end, there is simply too much potential scoring area on the floor to deny open looks from.

Great defensive coaches and their hard nosed defenses are turned into shredded wheat.

You can liken the trey to artillery supremacy, or aerial supremacy in hot warfare. Either way you have to deny supremacy in the trey to your opponent if you are to win.

You can liken match-up zones to flexible ground and air fortifications designed, not to crush the enemy at point of ground attack, but to bog it down and draw it into contested 2 point shooting , while you score in uncontested 3-pt shooting.

Trey supremacy with a legitimate rim&post defender/dunker was what made KU what it was this past season. Most teams it could outshoot 3 to 2 and Doke could dunk on at a 70% clip, while it used old fashioned M2M to bog them down on the other end. KU was Villanova Lite. Or Villanova was KU on Steroids.

If KU trades trey supremacy for a stretch 4 offense founded on old fashioned athleticism, it’s doomed to compete only for a conference title. And if an opposing B12 coach can patch together even 4 trey guns with one a good post defender, too, KU will likely fail even to win its 15th title...even with all it’s supposed depth and it’s stretch 4 “no one can guard.”

Rings require aerial supremacy and defense good enough to bog the enemy into 2 pt attempts.

Thus two trey shooting bigs is the new cornerstone of excellence, and holy grail of recruiting.

There are many ways to win at basketball that are not easily reproduced.

Michigan State once won a ring with a 6-9 PG named Magic that was like a 5th and 6th defender out front in a matchup zone, and an unstoppable PG and extra post man on offense.

Teams have found unstoppable footers with great corner shooting wings and a fine PG (UCLA).

And so on.

But the Villanova team with twin trey shooting bigs AND trey shooters at every other position was easily the most dominant team of the 3 pt era once Jay Wright got the kinks worked out of his pioneering endeavor.

The question is: was it a freak, like MSU with Magic, or a repeatable formula, like UCLA and others, with dominant bigs?

Jay reputedly did it without anyone above a Top 75 recruit.

Duplication seems feasible.

Balance between treys and twos?

We don’t need no stinking balance.

The game has changed.

There are no short treys in the Carney against the Nike-EST teams anymore.

No more running and jumping like young men flying off trampolines to score amazing dunks and banks. The days of Dr. J have gone to the same ash heap as the 2-hand set shot and the mid range J.

Using athleticism to create short treys and impact plays is the old way to play.

Athleticism is now about adding range to 40% accuracy beyond the semicircle.

Conference titles after 14 don’t matter anymore. The record is broken. Now it’s about playing for rings in a Carney of apparent asymmetries.

You can go as far as a two seed, as you can as a 1 seed, if you are loaded with trey guns and 2 bigs that can drain treys too.

But no rings for driving, pirouetting, leaping athleticism.

Athleticism without a trey is like a day without sunshine.

Is Moore a 40% 3pt shooter with up to 28 feet range?

Can he place the pass to the hands at the optimal position to go up for three?

No more lobbing jams either. Too low of a percentage.

Only passes to wide open dunks.

And to wide open treys.

@HighEliteMajor

Yes, it would have been a good idea. Leaving trey shooters unattended was less so.

I keep coming back to Self’s demeanor after the game. It seemed so unlike him. No one else seems to have noticed anything unusual, however.

@BShark

Stubbornness is a double-edged sword for sure.

@BigBad

Guarding Paschal away from the basket was easy. Run out and get a hand in his face. They never ran action for him. And Paschal couldn’t put it on the deck. Guarding outside just takes speed and mobility. Silvio had that. So did Mitch. Either one would have been able, but with Silvio you get offensive rebounding which we also desperately needed in order to get more FGAs to come back.

HighEliteMajor said:

@Barney Personally, I think Self thought that his best option was to just keep doing what the team normally did.

It may be a little more layered than that.

Self appeared to concoct an unusual defense to compensate for Doke’s immobility and for Vick’s inability to cover Bridges alone. Self appeared to bet Paschal wouldn’t beat KU from three, if KU switched a combo guard on to him most of the time and occasionally left him open when the combo guard stayed and helped Vick with Bridges. It was a good gamble until Paschal shot lights out.

To give Self the benefit of the doubt for a moment, he probably gambled that it was better to have Paschal make some treys than for Bridges to run wild on Vick with an adjustment that left Vick more one on one and Paschal more closely guarded by a combo.

But Self had devised a defense that needed more practice than a day or so. As he said in post game, we devised some stuff that looked good in practice but didn’t work under game conditions. That translates to not enough practice to execute the reads for switching to keep Paschal from being left wide open.

But this switching was only necessary to keep Doke in for his dunking, which never materialized because of his knee and because of all the driving without dishing.

So: Silvio and Mitch should have shared the post the last 20, chased Paschal everywhere, left the offense to DG, Malik, Vick and Svi. And we should have been shooting a ton of treys to compensate for our trough game and to exploit Nova blowing cold the second half.