@globaljaybird, not every thing, but it seems logical for them to take an interest in the players that might become hugely important to marketing their product globally for perhaps the next decade. It's all just a hypothesis though.
jaybate 1.0
10346 posts
@bskeet I don't understand why one views talk about how duopoly and oligopoly "coopetition" work as engaging in conspiracy theorizing. Duopoly and oligopoly are not only legal, but one of the most prevalent regimes in regional and global producer markets. Many, if not most respected scholars in economics, political economy and international relations recognize these regimes as prevalent. Some even view them as desirable ordering combining a favorable trade off between efficiency and stability. I have never fully agreed with the experts that argue this way, but it's true that many respected scholars do lean this direction.
Regarding Nike, I can only speculate and opine, as I did about Adidas. If I were Nike, I would view myself as the hugely dominant player in D1 hoops. I would think my best play in that realm would be to stay on top by continuing to use my greater numbers of allied players and programs to try to take up as many slots on the grocery store shelf each year as possible. Numbers favor Nike. Adidas has the problem of how to avoid being swamped by Nike's greater numbers. Therefore, it would seem Adidas' best play would be to target top talent with better deals than Nike wants to offer it's vastly larger stable of Nike leans. This logic would probably lead Adidas to want to keep taking the number 1 slot as many years as possible and concede to Nike numbers the remaining slots IMHO.
Next, it could possibly be that Nike expected reputed one time Nike lean Andrew Wiggins to sign with a Nike program, at the time the players last year made their decisions to go 1-2. I don't recall the chronology, but I know Andrew waited a very long time, maybe so long prior decisions could not be feasibly reversed.
Regardless, I would see nothing necessarily illegal in oligopolists engaging in what some scholars call coopetition in the sports shoe and apparel producer market. I would find it more remarkable, if they did not. Rock Chalk!
@drgnslayr: The White situation is evolving for sure, but it may still be fluid. White is not playing in situations where it seems that he might play. Further, reading between the lines of some comments by Jesse Newell at the very least suggests that something is up. Add in whites recent quote and things seem peculiar indeed. But just when I was thinking that white might become a transfer, Lyle decided not to attend a KU game. These anomalies could add up to many different outcomes. We will have to wait and see.
Any team that has a great player in a mismatch at your weakest crucial position
( point guard or post man) is a dangerous opponent, unless your stars and glue guys at the other positions come to play and come to help.
Teams beat individuals, but only if the teams recognize the need to do it. Freshman often have a recognition problem. The tough early schedule may have taught our freshman to recognize this situation.
The OSU player we are going to have the most trouble with his Markel Brown. Our help defense will be geared to channel smart into switches where Selden, or Wiggins, pick up Smart. If Smart were skillful, we should expect him to pass back to Brown being guarded by Tharpe or Mason, for the mismatch. It is at this point, that KU's youth should be most vulnerable. Can Tharpe overplay Brown again and force him into more help, or not?
This could be Greene's, or AW3's game to shine in. In order to contain the pass backs to Brown, KU will likely have to stay long on both wings, so long as the game is close, and especially whenever Embiid is out.
If Self were to decide to continue to go small on substitutions on the perimeter, as he has done in recent games, OSU could be a very interesting test. If the pony guards can control the pass backs, then sSelf can shorten his bench for the rest of the year. But I don't think that they can.
Self is probably telling Branan Greene (or white) something similar to what he told Connor Frankamp A few games ago – about matchups favoring him and him needing to be ready.
I kept this as short as I could just for u Nu. This team with Benmac would go undefeated and win a national championship. Period. Next.
@HighEliteMajor, I am pretty confident that either Wiggins, or Embiid, will play a second season.
My assumption is that Adidas is grooming each player to be a Number 1 draft choice and so get the maximum hype and contract that comes with that in order to propel each player into the stratosphere of shoe/apparel endorsements.
Addidas reputedly has to expand its revenues sharply in North America to offset continued losses in Europe. It also may have to expand its market share sharply vis a vis Nike to make the Duopoly stable and sustainable in an era of predatory investment capital managers seeking to take over huge global producer markets, especially this shoe/apparel market tied as it is by a petro-plastics umbilical to the Anglo-American oil refiners oligopoly and thence to its sponsor, the owners of the global central banking system using the oil backed dollar as its reserve currency.
It makes little sense to me for Adidas to spring both Wiggins and Embiid the same season, so that one is the Number 2 choice. What is best for Adidas is to stick with what I hypothesize has been the plan all along: Wiggins end of this season, Embiid end of next season.
Self seems to be telegraphing Embiid staying.
I would guess Adidas needs to get a series of Number One draft choices and it needs to get a series of NCAA champions to really put a dent in Nike's dominance, even if Nike were amenable to letting it happen for the good of strengthening the duopoly, which Nike hardly appears to be, given its apparent stacking of UK and UA in pursuit of Nike teams to dominate the Finals. Maybe they did not channel talent, but from this fan's distant view it appears a possibility.
Adidas got a ring from Rick last season; that was a start. But they learned from Derek Rose that its not enough to just get one number one every once in awhile. Adidas needs a series of Roses as surely as Nike needs a series of Anthony Davises.
So: I am pretty much expecting Embiid to play for KU next season. This lines up 2 straight Number Ones for Adidas. It also lines up three straight NCAA champs. These are the kinds of runs that can make a difference over time in market share and bottom line.
All the Nike leaning media and coaches appear to be putting out a steady, shameless stream of "Embiid is the best" and Embiid will jump this season" to try to throw a wrench in what seems to me to be Adidas strategy. Gee, what a surprise!
The media and coaches with more of an Adidas lean seem to be talking up both players, but not beating the drum for Embiid to come out this season.
I think the only reason we are having this tide of speculation about Embiid is that players being humans, rather than robots executing marketing strategies, Andrew Wiggins hit an unexpected wall, while Embiid came on a bit faster than expected. That combination created a massive opportunity to hype Embiid as this year's Number One.
But I suspect of late Andrew has gotten a fire lit under him to right the ship soar back into number one talk. Embiid is supposed to push, I reckon.
The pushing of Andrew Wiggins finally reached Andrew and he was a holy terror in Ames.
Let me emphasize this with caps: a guy listed as a guard on KU's roster had 19 rebounds! When was the last time you recall a guard getting 19 rebounds? Magic Johnson? Oscar Robertson? It was a statement game for Andrew. It was recognition that he has to put up some numbers for awhile, in oder to bring the Number 1 speculation back to being focused on him. Or so I believe, anyway.
Just an awesome rebounding display for a perimeter player.
In conclusion, I believe everyone needs to get ready for more lion killing stories next session.
Match-ups are on many board rats's minds these days.
Why?
IMHO, trey shooting incentives, rule enforcement, and apparent Shoeco stacking of certain schools with inordinate amounts of L&As has finally lead to noticeable broad asymmetry in the talent (i.e., length and athleticism) distribution among conference teams (and among teams around the country, too).
Note: that rising asymmetry of L&A among D1 programs is an anecdotal observation that might be refuted by someone comparing the distribution of L&A players with the distribution this season of seasons past. I hope someone can track asymmetry in L&A sometime, but for now I am going to fly by the seat of my anecdotal observation.
Rising asymmetry in basketball conflict may be a bit like rising asymmetry in war conflict. The asymmetry confronts both sides with increasing mismatches, and so both sides explore new ways to deal with those asymmetries in matchup.
This dynamic makes board rats like us focus more on match-ups than ever, or so I speculate.
So: I want to explore some basics of match-ups.
First, mismatches trigger three types of strategic/tactical responses that seem a hair contradictory at first.
-
Same: Get similar to the opponent in terms of length and athleticism, so as to negate his ability to go shorter, pr longer, in pursuit of mismatches.
-
Longer: Get taller and more athletic to exploit the advantages of length and athleticism in hoops.
-
Shorter: Get shorter and more athletic to try to be too mobile to be guarded without fouling.
These three options can of course be applied across all five positions, or just some. You can get longer at all five positions. You can get shorter at all five. Or you can get similar at all five positions.
Less well understood is that you can get longer, or shorter or the same in the front court, and do something different in the back court, or vice versa.
Rick Pitino got longer in front court and shorter in back court.
Cal's great UK team got longer and more athletic everywhere.
Self's teams have tended to evidence lots of L&A that allows KU to be longer and more athletic, but then situationally go shorter, or longer.
This season, when Self has a lot of depth, he seems to like go long to get control of the boards, and get higher percentage shots on offense, and to block and alter more shots on defense. For these advantages, he will willing to take some fouls playing bigger front court men on smaller opposing front courts. He does this so long as he can protect his starters from late game fatigue and foul excess. He follows the logic that the advantage of both length and athleticism of his team are magnified down the stretch when his long guys are still taller, and and the shorter, fatigued, and fouled up opponent grow a lot shorter because they can't jump as high and they haven't got any more fouls to give.
Self veers from this strategy only when his longer front court players are not getting higher percentage looks and making them and his stable of bigs are simply giving up fouls to fast to keep his starters un-fouled up for the last ten minutes; then he seems to go shorter to see if he can increase his athleticism enough to reduce the fouling, and get more mobility so as to get more high mobility scoring out of outside shooting, penetration, and so on.
On the outside, Self has experimented with starting two longs (Selden and Wiggins) and a short (Tharpe or Mason) and then either bringing long players (Greene, White), or getting much shorter (Mason and Tharpe, or Mason and Frankamp). Increasingly, he seems to opt to stay with his two long/one short outside, then go very short, then come back with two longs and a short.
This pattern has frustrated many board rats who think that going long outside on substitution creates either desirable matchup similarity, or desirable match up advantage on the perimeter.
But what Self's long term trend and tendency seems to indicate is that KU benefits most from staying longer in there front court for as long as possible, and alternating two longs/one short with one long and two shorts.
Some of this may have to do with tendency of taller perimeter players developing more slowly than the shorter perimeter players, or some tendency among shorter players being more skilled, but as the season grows longer, and the N of games increases, what seems to be emerging is a tendency for going from two long/one small to 2 small and one long, or even three small on the perimeter.
This raises a very interesting question? Why would starting two longs and a short on the perimeter, which enhances conventional notions of length related MUA, not be superior to continue, as so many board rats wish Self would do, when the opponent is long. What is the benefit of going short at two, or three positions on the perimeter against opponents?
To answer, or at least pose a hypothesis, it helps to go back to the initial premise of this post that a number of forces have appeared to converge increase asymmetry in length and athleticism distributed among D1 programs.
For years, the majors all mostly tried to match up similarly for the most part. If you played long bigs they played long bigs. Yours were more athletic, or skilled, but heights were often quite similar. In recent years, height similarity began to include brawn similarity as well.
Something similar could be said for similarities on the perimeter, too.
It was the Mid Majors that played two 6-7 bigs and tried to matchup similarly outside. It was the mid majors that had teams where everyone shot treys.
But something has happened to the distribution of the L&A players in D1. More of the long bigs seem to be being concentrated in fewer and fewer programs, and this results in more and more majors adopting the mid major model for playing the game.
In turn, we see more and more asymmetric warfare, if you will, in basketball and so more and more games where KU, one of the haves, has to contend with majors playing the old mid major model.
In turn, KU and Self are confronted with more and more games where his L&A bigs have to "chase" the 6-7 bigs.
Further, I suspect that the depth of the have-not teams falls off much faster in comparison with the depth of the haves these days.
As a result, we see Self getting more and more benefit out of going long in front court as substitutions unfold, and we see something a bit counter intuitive occurring when substitutions in the back court unfold.
Perimeter athleticism seems to drop off much faster among the have nots than the haves than it perhaps used to do.
So: Self going long on the perimeter in substitution, while it offers the usual benefit, it seems that the athleticism advantage in Self's short subs seems to offer a sufficiently larger incremental advantage over the have nots that on the perimeter, anyway, Self's short and athletic perimeter subs are, as they learn the ropes, doing as well, or better than his long and athletic perimeter subs.
This does not mean there is no use for the Brannen Greenes and the Andrew Whites, just that they apparently offer less incremental advantage in a substitution phase of a game than their height might once have granted them.
Now, at least one more thing may be feeding into this phenomenon. It may be that what I have described so far was already underway before this season and that it took Slick Rick Pitino's ring team last year to crystallize everyone's awareness of it, or Self's anyway.
But maybe the change in rules enforcement this season tends to favor the athleticism of the shorter perimeter player, or at least diminishes the advantage of the long and athletic player. Maybe calling the rules tightly spikes the edge to a Tharpe, a Mason, and a Frankamp,, due to their skitter bug mobilities. And this edge compounds the longer term tendency of the haves to have more athleticism amongst their reserves than the have nots.
There. I have set the table for a season long debate. :-)
@ParisHawk lol, PHOF take on new uniforms.
@Kip_McSmithers, yup
@Lulufulu85, it is now a possibility, having gotten to road wins to set up possible sweeps. But I still think playing for A title is much more realistic than playing for running the table in conference. What we are seeing right now appears to be the fruit of self scheduling tough opponents early, plus choosing to start the season slowly and with a less heavy workload. Other teams seem already to be hitting the January wall. I doubt that it is probable that KU can avoid hitting a wall simply because of the light early workload. More likely the wall wiill come in February, hopefully when our team has built an insurmountable edge. Even if we can run the table, it may make more sense for self to develop more aspects of the team, and take a loss for doing it, rather than running the table. Further, they must guard against hubris, because turnovers and cold shooting on a team that does not disrupt much could lead to an upset by almost any team in the big 12. But the short form answer to your question is that, yes, running the table has now become a slim possibility. And if Ku's pony guards can find a way to contain smart in the OSU game, then that possibility grows significantly. Rock chalk!
@globaljaybird, and it should be a big one!
@wrwlumpy, faux choir boy Hoii just sewing seeds of jealousy between Embiid and Wiggins for next game, so the team plays less cohesively. Ignore him Joe and Andrew. Further, The goal of some coaches that have to compete against Self and KU appears to be to try to get Embiid to the pros after this season, so they don't have to face him next season.
• SHOWDOWN TIME!
• KU BY 10.
• Surprise: Tharpe starts on Smart. Crowds up and under. Plan is for Tharpe to crowd Smart to Selden or Wigs for switches. Mason ditto. OSU counters with throwbacks to Markell.
• Usual MO: lots of bench first half to play for last ten of second half.
• Self gives the biggest amp so far.
• KU offends inside out, bench bigs regain their mojos.
• a good time is had by all.
Horn toot: predicted KU +10, outcome +7, close enuff for gubmint work.
Horn toot: predicted Kane and Hoi overstating injury, outcome: overstating. No serious sprain gets that much better that fast.
Horn Toot: Self would play bench first half to win energy budget last ten minutes, yup.
Next.
@wrwlumpy Yup, it was a sucker play. 😎
@REHawk , quite possible. But it seems the team turned a psychological corner, when it quit waiting for Wigs to score and set about playing like an inside out team. Wigs struggled with plug in awhile, but the bigs seemed to start acting more like bulwarks when given permission to try to win inside first. Where you are on the money is that once teams scheme to stop the inside out game, at some point Self can return to ball screening and some Triangle stuff on both wings with Wigs and Selden slicing and dicing. He already returned to some pick and roll, which is a half step that direction.
KU would win by 25, if it hadn't shot its trey wad the last two games and Self amped them.
But it did shoot its trey wad, and Self won't amp such a young team two games in a row and suffer a let down the following weekend. He will send them in flat the first half, playing lots of guys and ISU will get cocky because they will open a lead.
KU will be shooting some anemic trey percentage and with an un-amped team that is still learning the English translation of "lock down," that likely ensures a close game till ten to go in the game, when KU makes its move.
I think our sapling KU players will be a little weirded out by the Mayor's offense. It has spooked our last two experienced teams.
I also think Self will play a lot guys the first half to win the energy budget battle and get them fouled up for the last ten minutes of the second half.
Thus, I would not be surprised to see ISU jump out to an early lead, before KU figures out how to guard Fred's offense from Pluto.
Then KU goes off on them down the stretch. Weirdoes start stalking Self. And KU chalks up the second of two away wins against top four teams needed to guaranty the two sweeps needed to win the conference.
Yeeeeee haawwwwwww!
@RockChalkinTexas, Thanks for looking up the opponents. I predict Fred will play him tonight, if he can go at all, try to steal a win and sit him against Texas.
Yes, and I will spray some teflon on my face to get prepared for getting the egg off, when Kane is in street clothes. :-)
@Lulufulu85, Bleacher Report has to spike clicks to eat. If they were to write about Self being the COY from the beginning of the season, as Self has always deserved every season at KU, clicks would not soar.
Self out coaches all of the coaches every year. He out recruits them. He out strategizes them. He out dresses them. He out humbles them. He out wits them. He out ref manipulates them. His breath probably even smells better than theirs.
Self is a genius at coaching. He presents a problem for media covering him. He outmaneuvers the media, too. They can't corner him. They can't seduce him. They can't get any more access than he already gives them.
So they write about the next new challenger; that's all this kind of reporting is about. The pro journos are not born yesterday types. They know that as long as Self is in the league he will be the COY and that makes there be nothing to write about. So: they invent challengers for him. Fred is the only guy that has shown any consistent ability to get under Self's skin competitively and Self is even figuring him out. Every game, Self gets better. If you start out behind him in the first place, you are never going to catch him while he is still coaching.
The guy is a middle aged coach. He has seen it all and done it all, so now all there is to do is create ridiculous challenges for himself. Like building a title contender out of guards that Top Ten teams weren't even interested in, like building a contender out of a footer from Cameroon that has only played three years of ball and blows smoke up reporters' cabooses about killing lions and sharks, like not building a team around the greatest prospect since Lebron.
Self is out there.
Self is through the looking glass.
Self is a genius.
And talking about challengers is what you do, when you already know who is really going to be the actual COY every season.
Next.
@RockChalkinTexas, regarding playing Kane, or not, Hoiberg is in a tough spot and Self knows it. This conference season everyone has to be thinking about playing for splits against the top 4 teams and hope to steal one sweep in order to get at least a share of the title, as I indicated after KU stole one at Norman. KU's win at Norman was big, because it means Self has his team set up for the one sweep he has to get. KU can almost certainly take OU at home barring unforeseen injuries; that's the sweep. From the win in Norman onward, unless KU makes a really poor showing at home against one of the top four teams, all Self has to do is amp his teams for the home half of the Saturday-Monday games involving top 4 teams and bide his time hoping for one more sweep on an away game by beating another top four team on a low amp, grind it out performance. Stealing two sweeps among the top four teams nearly guaranties an outright title this year, because of talent distributions and injuries to the likes of Cobbins at OSU.
So: Fred is in a pickle, because Self amped his team for KSU at AFH and so is probably rolling into Hilton without an amping. Self would tolerate a loss to ISU at Hilton, if Fred were determined to amp his team there for the reasons I discussed above.
Fred's problem is that if he amps his team for a peak performance in order to capitalize on KU's likely off shooting game, after two hot ones, and does not play Kane, ISU probably doesn't have enough fire power to win amped, even when KU is not amped and shooting so-so.
Self would love to steal another road win, but putting the spurs to his young team two straight games could lead to a huge emotional let down the next weekend.
Fred knows this.
Fred has decide whether to protect Kane by resting for later, knowing that if ISU loses in Hilton now, his team is going to be playing behind the eight ball the rest of the round robin, or play Kane and try to get the win he needs now to stay out from behind the eight ball.
Since there will four days to rehab Kane's ankle before ISU's next game, if ISU's next game is an easy opponent, then I think Hoiberg plays Kane tonight to try to squeeze out a win at home, then maybe not play Kane next Saturday to give his ankle a big block of time to heal.
I am a pussy about playing guys injured. I wish they never played injured. But Self is not alone in approaching injury as something players play through for the good of the team, if playing through were what was best for the team. The current ethic seems to be: we are not here to protect your injury at the expense of the team's interest. We will not play you if i would wreck you forever, but we will play you injured if strategy and tactics require it, and if you have the kind of injury that will simply take longer to heal if played on.
A lot has to do with the kind of player it is, the kind of injury it is, and how high that player's pain threshold his.
For example, Self apparently just told Tyrel Reed and EJ to play through, even though they needed surgery. Both guys seemed to be able to hobble through it. One time he wanted a young Travis to play on the ankle and Trav said he couldn't. Trav was not chastised. He just was sent to the far end of the bench for the rest of the season. Fine, if we can't count on him this season, then we can't count on him. But if we are going to count on him, then he HAS to play no matter what. Poor EJ got caught in the he HAS to play his two seasons. Last season he was wearing quilts and bailing wire and electricians tape and super glue on his knee for most of the season. I don't see how EJ played at all the first 2/3s of the season, but some guys just can bear enormous pain. When board rats ask why was EJ given the ball at the end of the Michigan game, implying he shouldn't have been, that was Self making clear EJ was one of the toughest hombres he had ever seen and if he had to lose, he wanted to lose with the toughest kid he ever saw, and if he had to win, he thought it would take the toughest kid he ever saw that jacked 39 on a trick knee to git-her-done. I really believe his choice of EJ in the Michigan game was Self paying his respects to EJ. Board rats can complain all they want, but something happens when players play above and beyond the call of duty regarding injury and sacrifice for extended periods. It builds a bond between a coach and a player that eventually is recognized by the coach. EJ was out in a pain zone and out in a loss of function zone that made it seem impossible for him to guide the team to 30+ wins, but he did and doing so saved Self's coaching bacon--made Self the winningest coach of the last ten years--made Self seem like a genius. Self knew that all those accomplishments hung on Self couldn't have happened if one Elijah Johnson had not played through a shoulder injury his sophomore year, a knee injury his junior year and an inadequately rehabbed knee his senior year. Self know EJ was a great talent. He knew EJ could have quit on Self at any time and said, no, my career comes first, not the team and your record. EJ manned up all over Self. EJ played through more than Self could have played through; this happens to most coaches sooner or later. And when it does, the coach, without ever publicly showing it, is in absolute awe of the player's will and willingness to sacrifice--to walk the talk of the coach about sacrifice above and beyond the coach's capacity for sacrifice.
EJ was a five star athlete that saw his awesome L&A crucified before he ever got to the money making time of his career. It is one of the unforgivable cruelties of amateurism. It should be stopped. Either injured players should sit, or amateur players should be paid to sacrifice their bodies the way EJ, and Kaun, and so on, did.
Will Fred play Kane?
I suspect he will if Kane can go at all, because ISU needs a win at home over KU in the worst way. I haven't looked at ISU's next opponent after KU, but if its next opponent is figured to finish in the bottom half of the conference, Kane gets his chance to give one of those super human performances.
IMHO.
@drgnslayr, first, I really think you are on the right track with the Kobe-Andrew comparison, but maybe did not give younger readers enough history about Kobe for them to appreciate your insight. I aim to add some of that historical context on Kobe in my post shortly, but first want to address a possible trigger of the persistent, confusing comparison of Andrew and Lebron.
After having tried to recall the hyping of Wiggins from all sources I can recall, I don't recall Wiggins was ever exactly compared to Lebron in terms of type of game. He was compared to Lebron in terms of his expected ability to dominate a game at D1 level and pro level, and in terms of his ability to be the next big super star endorser; this was a lot different than saying he played like Lebron.
Perhaps a lot of us soaking up media simply leaped incorrectly to the conclusion that Wiggins game was literally like Lebron's game; that that was what the hype was saying, when it wasn't in a literal sense.
After all, the hype is designed to be accepted without thinking in the first place. It is slickly conceived, packaged and disseminated to make us buy into it. It is designed to be accepted simplistically; i.e., without thinking through what was really said.
The hype on Andrew was like advertising puffery that we have been conditioned to buy into for our entire lives. For example, "Mercedes Benz, engineered like no other car in the world"--most hear that and think it means they are the best engineered car in the world, but of course it does not actually say that. It just says they are engineered differently. Every car company can make that claim. In fact for the last ten years, despite the advertising and PR hype from car company ad agencies and presstitute car mags, a few automotive engineers I have talked to agree that Toyota/Lexus has made the best engineered cars in the world at every price point they participate in and its not even close. They may not handle quite as well, but that's only because Toyota did not design them to. Everything the Toyota engineers designed to be better than Mercedes in fact was better than Mercedes, according to these engineers I talked to. And Consumer Reports research has indicated that up until the last couple years, by most objective measures of engineering results, Mercedes actually falls far short of several brands in many categories.
But back to Kobe.
I think many of us just consumed the line "the greatest prospect since Lebron" like a puffery line. We imputed things into it that it did not say. Wigs can be the greatest prospect since Lebron without being remotely like him. But, as I said, puffery hype lines are designed to suck persons into imputing things that are not said and it happened with Wigs.
Next, when I asked recently: did Lebron ever have this long of a stretch of not being able to dominate, I was not suggesting that the comparison be made in terms of dominating the exact way Lebron did, but rather through their sharply different ways their sharply different types of bodies and games could enable.
The issue for me still is: can Wigs dominate a whole game and can he dominate for many games in a row? Did Lebron ever have these lengths of slumps at the NBA level that first season that Wigs is having at the piddling (in comparison) D1 level? I don't recall this many, but I confess not to have followed Lebron closely. Never the less, Lebron seemed a dominant player almost from the start.
Self called Lebron the biggest athletic freak on the planet and he has not used that phrase to describe Andrew. Like Wilt Chamberlain, I really do think Lebron is the biggest athletic freak on the planet of his era. I do not think Andrew has the kind of athletic freakishness that would let him walk onto an NBA floor and begin punishing NBA players and dominating games.
But that hardly means Andrew Wiggins is NOT the greatest prospect to come along since Lebron. And it hardly means that Andrew Wiggins is probably NOT going to become the next great super star after Lebron.
I agree with you that Kobe is a more apt comparison, because of body morphology, perimeter athleticism, but less so because of skills at the same stage. I lived in LA when Kobe started and he always seemed a sharply better shooter at all ranges than Wigs seems to me now, and that was against NBA guys, not D1. Also, Kobe seemed a sharply better ball handler at the same stage.
But here is where your post opened my eyes and should open others.
I do see that Wigs has a kind of unprecedented first, second and third step that can shrink a half court to the size of a pool table, at times. In this way, Andrew IS a great athletic freak. Maybe Dominique Wilkins might had similar steps, but I doubt it. Maybe Connie Hawkins, but he never seemed to play the 2. Jordan in transition yes, but neither Wilkins, nor Jordan, nor Hawkins had this kind of freakish length of step in half court sets to be able to three step from near mid court in a half court set and be at the rim. Wilt could have done it, did do it occasionally in college, but he was not a perimeter player. Kobe frankly does not even have these two-mile long steps.
Interestingly, something most forget is that Kobe had kind of a befuddled first season in the NBA (the same time that Wigs is playing at KU). It was not till his second season that he became a solid back up (runner up 6th Man of the Year in the NBA), then in his third year became much of the dominant starting guard we think of today as Kobe Bryant, though being carried by Shaq the first few years.
An interesting and significant anecdote about the early Bryant is found on his Wiki page. After high school he was picked by the Charlotte Hornets, but worked out for the Lakers against Larry Drew and Michael Cooper, the latter a crack NBA perimeter defender. Jerry West reputedly said that Bryant, at 17 "marched over these people." That reputedly convinced West to trade Divac for Bryant.
Why I mention this is that it indicates that in one on one Bryant was good enough at 17 to kick ass on each of two seasoned pros, but NOT to step in and start in the NBA in a team framework. This point is critical in understanding by illustration your characterization of Wiggins being similar to Bryant.
Wiggins has the phenomenal athleticism that Bryant had, plus more. His skills seem a bit less developed at the same stage. He also seems to lack some of Kobe's furious drive. However, Andrew does have a former NBA pro for a dad, as Bryant had. But even with all of that, Wiggins probably has to develop his game and his body to actually be ready to be a starting NBA 2/3 player, as Bryant also had to do. Bryant needed two full development years of being brought along slowly and of developing the basics that you have said Wiggins needs to develop. Wiggins will develop some of that this year. He will develop more of that next year in the NBA, whether he lands with a team that can afford to bring him along slowly, or has to throw him to the dogs. The following year, if Bryant were any indication, will be the year Andrew's biological maturation and his skill maturation converge to create a dominant NBA player.
I really think the above explains why Wiggins is not dominating at D1. He is young, young, young, and he is playing for a coach that wants him to fit into a scheme that is reputedly similar to the schemes of the NBA. In essence, Wiggins is being given maximum PT in his OAD year to work on some of his basketball skills a bit at a time and to get used to plugging into a pro style scheme, not to take over games, which he, with any luck, will not be asked to do in the pros for another couple years, as Kobe was not.
If my reasoning were sound here, based on what you were outlining, Wiggins probably could crank it up and hang 30 right now, just as he did in high school, but that would be to waste this year of development that he, like Kobe, needed in order to become polished, dominant, starting NBA players as soon as possible, i.e., 2 seasons or so from now. Trial by starting fire next NBA season might accelerate, or destroy, Wigs time line, just as it might have accelerated, or destroyed, Kobe's time line. I would be inclined to trust Jerry West on this one, even though Derek Rose and John Wall survived trial by fire starting their first NBA seasons. Andrew Wiggins seems much closer to Kobe in development, maybe even a little behind him, than to Derek Rose and John Wall. And look at what's become of Rose and Wall. Rose is a mess from injury and Wall does not seem to have become the total player that Kobe became. I hope Andrew gets to go somewhere and come along slowly for a year, or two.
This is all a long way around the mulberry bush to reiterate I think you are reading this situation correctly, though perhaps may not added quite enough historical context of Kobe for younger readers to really appreciate the rightness of your insight.
@wissoxfan83 LOL
"You wouldn't have won if we'd beaten you."
Yogi Berra
~Its not whether you win or lose, its how you lose.
~A lot of persons want to win. Some have the will to prepare to win. But the will to prepare to lose, that is what separates interim coaches from coaches.
~We left it all in the toilet tonight.
~I'm proud of our kids: we raised the bar on quitting.
~The truth is Xs and Os are not what matters, only the Xs matter.
~We worked hard all week at learning to seal ourselves off.
~Anyone can come up big and win. The question is: can you come up small and win. We came up small alright, but we couldn't win it.
~We beat ourselves the first half and then we ran ourselves out of the gym the second half.
~I try to stage a mock burial of the coach I replace, BEFORE they bury me.
~The only thing more overrated in coaching than motivating players is being a good people person.
~Five minutes into every game all pre-game strategy is obsolete; so I teach the boys: think nihilism.
~Beating yourself hurts less than being beaten by an opponent.
~Developing young men is a process...of futility.
~I've learned it is best to hire the man that will replace you as an assistant, rather than give the AD the chance to replace you with someone better.
~A team has to learn how to lose, before it can lose; that's where I come in.
~Defeat instills humility. Humility instills patience. Patience instills distraction. Distraction instills paralysis. Paralysis precedes death. Death is a meaningless void. Remaining optimistic is what its all about.
(Note: All fiction. No malice.)
@VailHawk, yes, if Tharpe, or Mason, get fouled up AND CF plays well. WIth so many talented players to choose from, and with make shots while doing no harm being job 1, Self can afford to sub until he gets what he wants (and will).
It has been unpersuasive to me that Self had to choose one guy to get the role played the way he wanted. Self is a positivist. Whoever can help the team most in a role specified by Self gets and keeps the job.
Wiggins isn't getting the PT at 3, because he has played great, but rather because his worst worst is still better than anyone else's best in Self's opinion. Wiggins is so good that Self doesn't have an alternative, so he plays him even when he doesn't play well.
Things are different at the backup 2 slot, where he has lots of players that could fill the role. Play bad and he will try someone else.
But be all that as it may, two factors beyond CFs control have favored him.
Selden has played great, so Self is not looking for a guy that can do what Selden does; that situation favored Brannen and Aw3, neither of whom could capitalize on it.
Now that Selden is smokin' at 2, Self is looking for a part time gun at the 1; i.e., someone that can handle and trifectate. Greene and White are not able to play the 1 and 2. This situation favors CF, just as the old one favored Greene and White.
Self has changed what he is looking for. He changed the role, because, as I said, Selden caught fire, but also because he wants Mason's speed and penetration and change of pace as part of his rotation during the few minutes Selden now sits.
When he brings Mason, at point he likes Tharpe, or CF at wing., when the other team is small.
When the opponent is long, Selden stays in and if Mason struggles, CF gets the backup PT at 1; this way Self gets to keep a trey gun on the floor more minutes using the same guy.
If Greene and White could fill both roles, their L&As would give them the edge over CF, as happened when the role sought was just a backup 2.
All of this ultimately stems from Self's decision that the strength of the team was inside, despite the stars outside. It changed who could play outside. Then Selden's improvement enabled Self to move to a swing 1/2.
But when other teams can stay long, Greene and White will get chances again, if CF stumbles.
Remember: Self said CF, BG, and AW3 would each win a few games for us this season.
KU and ISU has to be the least known rivalry in D1, and yet it is an intense one. Hilton really is a tough place to play. ISU students, while not quite as vile as the Antlers of MU, would be considered pretty awful had we not been desensitized to retrograde behavior for decades by the Antlers. And of course ISU fans can become so deranged that stalking of Self could become the next great Erroll Morris documentary.
Fred Hoiberg is also Self's toughest coaching opponent in conference of late. Fred resolves the problem of insufficient talent by running often unrecognizable offenses that seem to have been devised in an anti-matter universe by Niels Bohr gone to the dark side.
Were both teams at full strength for the game, one could expect Fred to play seven guys shooting treys from everywhere on the floor. Their game plan would to match you on the glass, strip you senseless, disrupt you into nearly twice as many TOs, make you chase a team of 6-4 to 6-7 players every square inch of half court and lose if they shoot well, or you shoot poorly. Beating ISU is a bit like trying to beat Butler back when Brad Stevens was still there dressing and looking like Jerry Lewis pre 1956.
ISU is 14-1 with quality wins over Michigan (when it still had McGary), BYU, Iowa, and Baylor, but a loss this weekend to OU at Norman.
If Iowa State were without DeAndre Kane Monday, ISU would be in real trouble.
Word is Kane has a terribly sprained ankle.
I wouldn't put it past The Mayor to tell Kane to fib about how bad his ankle is.
KU may also shoot back to its average.
This is one of those short teams that will stress KU's guards and its big men.
But KU should win by 10.
@Wishawk, I have thought a lot about what may be driving Wiggins behavior, just as many others apparently have. I have formulated many hypotheses. I have written relatively little on it though for reasons that were not entirely clear without further reflection.
Finally, it hit me like a ton of bricks. Would we be asking why he were playing like Lebron, if he were? Or would we just be talking about what an incredible athlete he were? Wouldn't we just be talking about his incredible long strides, his springs, his keen anticipation, his competitiveness, his touch, his focus, his long years of hard work to get to this point?
We wouldn't, I suspect, be talking about the reputed vast potential size of his future pro contract elevating him to a phenomenal level of player, would we?
We would tend to think, well, the big contract is a reward for how exceptional he had been.
It occurred to me that it is ok to talk about his play, good, or bad. It is ok talk about how much better he could be if he turned it on all the time. It is ok to talk about what he does and does not do on the court, or even off it.
But it does not seem okay to talk about him dogging it to avoid injury, in order to get that big contract, because...
After his best games, I have not read one person say that he shot 50% from trey, got to the rack like a gazelle on steroids, shot 80% from the FT line, grabbed 4 boards, and guarded his man, because he wanted to make sure he got his beau coup bucks contract.
Athletes, are like musicians, painters, actors, comedians, chefs, lawyers and doctors: it is what they do. It is what they know and what they are good at and what they like to do, even if perhaps in a neurotic compulsive way.
Yes, they have careers and, yes, they are trying to maximize their career earning power, but the variances in their performances are not normally at all related to the risk/reward matrix that looms before them. In my experience, the tendency of these types of persons is to ignore the risks in pursuit of performance in hopes of their continued excellence accruing into making them so respected and valued that they make their pot of gold that way.
There are some corrupt ones in every one of the fields that I mentioned. But most of them approach their crafts honorably, if a bit neurotically. I am not being an apologist, just describing what I have observed over the course of my life.
At the margin, I could believe that Andrew might not take a risk of injury that another lesser player without the big contract looming might take, but 99 percent of the game is not played at the margin, or threshold. 99% of the time Andrew can go as hard as he is capable of, or rather as hard as he knows how to go, and as hard as his internal motor permits.
What I have noticed about persons in the fields I have mentioned above is that when they are not performing well, most often it is because they have run into some kind of mental block they did not even know they had, or some kind of emotional problems, or some kind of problems outside the field that they are struggling with.
Because they are so good, and can concentrate so well, their performance often does not fall off far as persons with lesser talents. And their tendency to "manage" everything, sometimes leaves the possible impression that they are
"up to something;" that they are some how gaming the situation, when they are not necessarily doing so.
So: I am inclined to give Andrew a pass on the "he's dogging it to avoid injury" speculation.
I am changing my tune somewhat here I know. I have speculated once or twice on such things. And I surely speculated on such regarding Xavier.
My point here is not to say flatly that players like Andrew and Xavier are not letting up on the accelerator to avoid injury.
I am saying that one probably cannot make even a reasonable guess at such a thing until one has had the full season of ups and downs that players go through to look back on and make a credible assessment.
I will always believe that Xavier pulled his punches on finishing at the rim that season that he played based on looking back at the whole season. But it would have been more sensible to wait until the season were over to hypothesize such about Xavier. It was okay to say that Xavier just wasn't a strong finisher during the year he played for KU, but not to speculate that the driver was avoiding injury to get a contract, or what have you, until one had a full season to assess.
Likewise for Andrew.
We know he hasn't played like the next Lebron.
We know even tonight he did not play like the next Lebron.
We know his best games have not looked like the next Lebron.
We know he shows flashes of greatness.
We know he started strong, then slumped.
We know most players have slumps.
We know he could be dogging it to avoid injury and ice a big contract, but we also know that there are many other even more likely drivers that might be at play. Perry Ellis and Frank Mason and Naa Tharpe have had troubles playing hard enough and well enough at times and none of them seem likely to be doing so to ice a big NBA contract. They are doing it, because they are imperfect human beings struggling fitful to get better amidst ferocious competition.
Let us comment now on how Andrew is doing during and between each game, but let us wait for him to finish his season before we speculate on what his personal motivations may have been. By the end of the season he could be playing like the next Lebron, or not, but we will more likely have enough data to make a reasoned assessment. It seems both logical and fair to do so.
Let the boys play. Talk about their play. But cut them some slack on motivations. A young man's motivations, even without a big contract looming, are often baffling to understand, even to himself. I know. I was that age once and I can still vaguely recall the phantoms that held me back, or the angels that propelled me to heights, intermittently.
I will try to walk the talk with this regarding the players. The ShoeCos, agents, summer gamers, media, NCAA, school admins, etc., on the other hand, IMHO merit quite a good deal of thinking and hypothesizing about their motivations. They have basic entrepreneurial agendas of organizations that are IMHO fair game to hypothesize about. But even with them, it is prudent to put Okham's razor to the strop before doing so.
Rock Chalk!
Many board rats (including me) have wondered what was going on with Selden and Wiggins.
Lots of drivers explored in trying to model what was up.
They are in a high pressure, high stakes environment and almost anything could have been impairing their play.
But get out the strop, lather up the mug, and give Okham's Razor a few swipes on the leather.
Remember (if you can) what you were best at when you were coming to KU that freshman year; then remember how you performed at what you were best at, when you were 18 that freshman year.
I am confident that if you recall that year clearly, and what you did and how you did it, you will very suddenly come to stunning clarity about Wayne and Andrew. And probably about Joel and Frank and Brannen and Conner.
You were on an awesome roll for a week, and then suddenly completely disoriented the next, then you were knocked out loaded from a girl you met, then your mind was cluster-intercoursed by sitting in a lecture hall with 400 persons, then you had more fun than you ever dreamed possible at a party, then you couldn't believe how to cram all of the information in you needed to take a test, then you felt depressed because you were far from home, then you felt elated because you were far from home, then you misunderstood what your parents told you on the phone, then you realized you had been wearing the same underwear for over a week, then you felt sick from having an eating contest, etc., etc., etc.
These are not machines.
These are 18 year old young men...
Who just happen to have right tail, 99.9999 percentile hoops talent.
@nuleafjhawk, you have pushed out the boundaries of posting...in a good and funny way!
PHOF!
Approx, the iPhone log on/log off issue tracks to a glitch in showing log on/log off on the screen, NOT to the log on/log off function being disabled.
It is also independent of clearing history and cookies, and start and restart attempts to fix.
It is simply a matter of the log on/log off pull down menu hiding the last line or two in its display.
The fix: turn iPhone side ways. It stays undisplayed, until one swipes upward and kind of stretches the displayed menu to reveal the Log on/log off line. Then, turn the iPhone back upright and the Log on/log off line will be displayed. I have no clue why this works. But you can tell the guys at NodeBB that the glitch lies in the code that dictates display of log on/log off, not in the log on/log off routine itself.
Note: The issue does not occur on iMac, or iPad, only on iPhone. And my iPhone display settings are on default.
Know this is low priority, but since a lot of folks use iPhones, the NodeBB guys would likely want to master this at some point, especially since the pull down menu is likely to be added to over time.
Hope this helps.
P.S.: And yes, I can be a bit anal about hunting down issues, as I have worked some with digital systems at times in the past. Old habits die hard. :- )
@ParisHawk, thx and let's keep getting better!
Noted. For what it's worth, I am hugely impressed with impressed with site function, clean interface, and absence of click ads. This level of function from a free platform has to make commercial portals wonder about the net benefits of their sunk costs and ongoing expenses. This has turned out not to be just a Band-Aid, but a preferred site experience. On the phone, it is often better than the mobile versions of commercial sites. Rock chalk!
This evening.
Cleared history.
Cleared cookies.
Powered down and back on.
Log on/log off line reappeared in pull down menu of three horizontal line icon upper right of screen.
This fascinating.
@globaljaybird, cornbeltjay's claiming to hate one our own players (Brannen Greene) was kind of unsubtle, wasn't it? :-) But who can say about such posters?
@justanotherfan, as usual, your clarity on the issue invigorates me. And your patient determination to stay on topic and wade through oversimplifications and make a reasoned case makes these old bones want to keep biting into sport and not stop. Thanks for taking the time.
Wow! Talk about striking timing!!!
With Greene's and White's minutes being screwed down, and possibly ambiguous quotes from White about transfer reported in the media, plus a rumored Tweet or two by Greene, plus Conner suddenly re-emerging, Lyle shows up for a visit.
I wonder which players Self will assign to show Lyle around?
@drgnslayr, this post made my day. Thanks.
@wrwlumpy, I missed that dive while looking away from the action due to my dog chewing up a pen and getting black ink on the rug. Your retelling of the event does it more justice and gives it more meaning than the references I read written by the pro journos. Thanks.
@iowajayhawk2005, Defaulting to an alibi with an additional degree of freedom. :-)
@iowajayhawk2005, Coherence and incoherence are perhaps immaterial here. Hate seems the key alibi. Hate is the hobgoblin of an Old Testament Lewis Black kind of mind schtick caught up in a Baudrilllardian reality that consists of hyper circulation of sign information disconnected from symbolic exchange value and reciprocal gift giving. It seems a futile, possibly narcissistic attempt at escaping nihilism with caustic humor masked as emotion that cannot in reality be experienced. :-)
You hate the sign of Brannen Greene, not the reality of Brannen Greene, which you of course cannot know digitally. And your sign conception of Brannen is a product not of any reality but rather a post post modern hyper synthesis of alibi invoked both to support the broader alibi of reality and so distract from an unsettling void of unfolding tedium amidst hypertelia.
Schtick and counter schtick.
Live the simulacra. :-)
@justanotherfan a ripping good response to corn belt jay.
@truehawk93 copy and paste.
@drgnslayr, thank you, sir, for clearing out my cobwebs this fine day.
@iowajayhawk2005, it is okay to come out and say you have a foul fetish, too. FOE :-)
(Preface for the uninitiated: this is all fake, both in status quo reality and in the Baudrillardian reality that does not exist, capice?)
jaybate 1.0 news service (jns 1.0)
Dateline: KU locker room ventilation duct
Slug: Redshirt Mickelson reputedly undergoes new classified hypernanosurgery to be fitted for Steve Austin-model cyber-elbow augmentation, Self to call it a "nicked up" elbow that needed "a little cleaning up."
Typically unreliable jns 1.0 stringers have found a ventilation duct leading into the KU coaches offices big enough for cell phones and cafe dulces and have learned, after 36 straight hours of eaves-dropping on the inside that Redshirt Hunter Mickelson shattered his own elbow in the impact on reputed lion and shark terminator Joel Embiid's eye socket. The injury viewed initially as potentially ending Mickelson's career, was turned into a likely XTReme Career Enhancement, when members of an above tip-top secret intel org wearing the latest invisibility cloaking ponchos that left only their faces unconcealed (though they were alas wearing masks from the Wachowski Brothers box office bomb "V") and said, "We could remake Hunter even better than he was. It can be done in a radical new surgery lasting only 43 seconds and taking only 39 seconds to rehab from. He can be better than he was, Mr. Self. He will be able to throw elbows in a way never seen before in D1. Using the atomic clock to parse seconds into the reciprocal of one Graham Number increments, you will be able, Coach Self, to control remotely Hunter's new cyber elbow with one of the new, slow selling WiiU compatible non chocks from the bench. You will have the ability, if you wish, to administer XTReme Cheap Shots Classic (previously programmed for Coach Consonants) and XTReme Cheap Shot Lites (specially programmed for you) and so deliver tempo altering impacts to manage games getting out of control. It will make Hunter the new Six Million Dollar Man in time adjusted, petroleum-backed, Federal Reserve debt notes, of course." Self, to his lasting credit, did not hesitate. He reputedly ordered the XTReme Cheap Shotting capabilities, both classic and lite, disabled completely and asked instead if the cyber elbow could be programmed to automate blocking out on rebounding, something his current team struggles to master? The mysterious intel visitors somewhat disappointed at the lack of violence in Self's request, guarantied that a blocking out re-coding based on repurposed KUBuckets.com code, would be feasible. So: Self, after conferring with (and gaining approval from) Hunter and his family, gave thumbs up to the surgical procedure. Hunter will train with the new cyber elbow the rest of this season and by next season become a stunning new addition to KU front court players. Self will tell media Hunter's elbow is nicked up and a little sore and just needs a little clean up in a minor surgery that will make him miss less than a week of practice.
(Note: All fiction. No malice. And I sure hope both Hunter and Joel are okay and getting better. Rock Chalk!)
@VailHawk, I have Perkins envy, but, no, I am ambiguously not Sweet Lew. :-)
@iowajayhawk2005, learn something--no single rule change save for putting you in charge could wreck college basketball. :-)
Seriously, get used to me having fun with you now. :-)
@VailHawk, please note that I only flatly denied being Zenger in the Venn diagram of aliases, thus it is not a categorical denial, but rather an ambiguous, limited denial expressed in order to meet the complex standards you set. ;-)
@VailHawk, in the Venn diagram of aliases, I am all not Sheahon's Zenger. ;-)
@KirkIsMyHinrich , thanks for that assist. I thought I was perhaps caught in a basketball episode of the BBC situation drama "black mirror." :-)