"This happened after two bad calls and CBS chose not to show a replay"
--@JayHawkFanToo
You hit this out of the park; this steamed me so much I forgot to mention it.
CBS doesn't show the egregious fouls of the teams it shills for.
I HATE THIS ABOUT CBS!!!!
It's like watching fake basketball news sometimes!!!!
Dire situation?
Um, NO!
Injury god permitting he could have a much better team next season--a true power house inside and out--maybe Self's, maybe even KU's, best team ever.
But what will happen if the long stacking starts again in the EST? It won't win a ring.
Regardless, Self loves clipping $10M coupons, even if he has to coach walk-ons.
And Sign board forehead Marsha loves him some $3.3M stubs plus the side revenue he banks.
DIRE has no relevance to this situation and I'm positive you shouldn't have introduced DIRE into any discourse of mine.
This is about WHERE you set your son up, and WHEN you go to Tahiti for a few years.
KU should think about encouraging him to stay, or he flat won't.
Other things equal, Self is positioned to cash in on Coach K and Roy slipping into Strom Thurmond status; i.e., the working dead aka figure heads on life support to keep their respective not for profit athletic departs generating massive Bit Coin.
Self has 10 more pre dementia years and he could hang on to run up his title count before the AD puts in a central line and starts wheeling him out until he dies, too.
But I'm taking Bill at his word long ago. He didn't see himself as a long haul trucker. He wanted to live some at the end. I don't think he'll let them Strom him.
Really, whatever he wants to do I'm for. But I remember breaking bread with Nellie Wooden long long ago now and she said she wished Wooden had retired sooner; that was 1977. She said no one had any idea what the toll was from the kind of fame that came with winning ten rings in 11 years. She said he could have retired after winning 6 or 8 straight and had a lot more gas left in his tank for enjoying retirement. Plus she said he could have won 2-3 more and even he couldn't see the point of that. She said the problem was the game and the business and the up and coming coaches just get more and more ruthless the more you win. He could have coached till he died if it were just practices and games. But it was the rest of it that sucked the life out of a person.
Imagine how much worse it would be today.
I can already hear the fatigue in his voice now. He conceals it but it's there.
Author Ken Kesey told me once: the spot light withers you away.
I believe him.
Go, Bill, go!
But be careful.
@justanotherfan said:
You could argue that Marshall and Calipari coached to a draw yesterday, but Calipari had the better players, so he’s playing this week, while Marshall gets to go and work on recruiting better players.
This has been my main argument regarding Self vs. Cal. The shoe contracts have apparently made Self largely unable to compete on an even talent level with UK, Duke and UNC, since winning the ring in 2008 with a pretty talented team of players recruited back before the apparent recruiting asymmetry dynamic really became acutely set in stone.
Self, at a reputedly elite major, has faced a similar situation to Marshall and Self even said so, though most were not really taking him at his word. He said in an interview a few years back during a particularly dicey stretch of recruiting that he and his staff had won with players at Tulsa (reached the Elite Eight) of the kind they were by then having to sign at KU. Frankly, things have gotten worse since then. Self briefly used to be able to sign 2-3 OADs in a season and he can't do that anymore. Take away Josh Jackson this season, the only OAD that the adidas conveyor could apparently deliver this season, and his talent level in terms of recruiting stars by the signed players names is probably as low as its ever been, and looks strikingly like a good mid major. This is why the job Self has done is so stunningly impressive this season and the last several. He is basically winning with the same kind of players Gregg Marshall signs with he addition of one OAD. If Marshall could convince the shoe conveyor to feed him an OAD, Marshall would at least have been able to coach a slightly more normal game against a team like UK, instead of having to result to Xtreme Tactics.
Your post was about Marshall, but its about Self and KU, too.
Self is a magician doing it with mirrors this season.
From here on it is going to be VERY difficult to hide that he only has seven players on any given night during the second of the two games each weekend.
Self has a bonafide future NBA high first round draft choice in Josh Jackson, and he has a guy everyone expected to be a star across the pond--Svi--and he has two of those once, or twice in a career diamonds in the rough types in Frank and Devonte. He has patched them together with a project center that has become a very serviceable college center and has been fortunate to find himself in a season, where long stacking appears no longer engaged in, AND there is no dominant OAD big man either with a good team around him.
I bet if you interviewed Self off the record he would be the first to say that things so far have broken just right for this bunch of players that lost its bruiser big man. They haven't blown cold in the tourney yet. They haven't gotten seriously fouled up yet. They haven't run into a team with a strong inside game and long and athletic guards yet. They caught Duke and UK during the season in varying stages of development that his experienced team of highly skilled players, plus his OAD, could exploit in a way they may not be able to after those teams have developed to this point. Self has to be thinking, hey, I can't believe it!!! We've got a shot still. But he also has to be thinking, "We have about 3.4 the raw athleticism as UNC and Kentucky in our starters and we 1/3th as much, maybe 1/8 as much, on our bench.
Gregg Marshall had to say something similar, only he had to acknowledge no OAD was on his team.
Self has not moved from KU to a job that gave him competitive talent with Duke, UNC, and UK, because he won his ring before the asymmetry locked in and starved KU recruiting to the point we see this season. Self knows there is a lot more luck involved with this team than with his 2008 team no matter what happens, because his 2008 team never faced a team with far more athleticism and talent, the way his 2017 is about to face.
Marshall has to look at his options and say life will stay smooth and affluent here at WSU. Unless I go to a major with a Nike contract, I am fooling myself and even then I am taking a risk of the rebuild not working out to something as stable as I have here. And he has to be thinking, well, one thing for sure: I sure as hell don't want to go to an adidas, or UA, program, unless they pay me enough up front that my kids will never have to work a day in their lives.
The mind message was signed:
Best regards and it's in the bag,
Jack Deepstater, KU '84
(Note: all fiction. No malice.)
OMG! I missed this link. Gotta bump it up!!!!!
Affirmative!
Bo Ryan's and Bill Self's pioneering of Drive Ball and Bill rationalizing it to BAD BALL have been emulated by most teams now. The object is two-fold: get a short three and foul up the opponent as fast as you can in order to limit his defensive and offensive aggressiveness and hit bonus sooner.
Self has expanded it some. He has 4 drivers that can shoot outside, too! And one--Josh--is so athletic he often can't get a short three because he starts jumping at the FT line and literally leaves defenders behind.
I am starting to see a deeper explanation to why there is so much less big man dominance.
First, big men lose more of their games on both ends, when fouled up than short, quick men do, when fouled up.
Second, drivers draw more fouls than bigs.
To play through bigs you need 4-5 of them.
To play through perimeter, you can get by with 3, or even 2.
First, pure, uncut 'slayr!
Next, I'll take two cards and raise.
Self has been saving him.
Doke starts vs. Purdue and double doubles!
Now, who's bluffing?
I'm not worried about Swanigan per se, even without Doke. We see super players go off regularly against us, but we guard the rest. I'm worried about:
1.) painter being smart enough to use his two bigs to run scissors and force Josh into switching onto Swanigan; then Swanigan fouling Josh up;
2.) Painter fouling up Landen too by the continual inside play;
3.) Purdue roughness softening us up for second game next week;
4) getting fouled up; and
5.) getting fouled up.
Painter will not be too proud, or too faint-hearted to play from behind for 30 minutes, if necessary to foul up Josh or Landen.
If Painter does this and KU's run of 40% trey balling runs into a small rim, its curtains. PERIOD.
No matter how terrific our guards are.
There are two ways to beat KU.
Huggie showed one way, but Purdue isn't a pressing team.
The other way is to foul KU up at 4, or 5.
@BShark said:
I don’t normally go @jaybate-1.0 but when I do Duke is usually involved.
ITS A START.
SOON, YOU WILL BE ABLE TO DO IT MORE AND MORE. :smiley:
HOWLING!!!!!!!
Just agree with sooooooo much above. Thanks for getting it said with pith.
Quick drawing from the hip...
Good read on Self's comment. He keeps changing enough to keep winning 84% for his KU tenure.
Drew is a total enigma to me. Don't doubt his sportsmanship. Doubt what he gets out of his team. But then he's in the 16, so I have to shut up about Drew.
Bragg is always thinking about playing basketball. Coleby just plays. Sometimes Bragg does something good despite thinking. Some times Coleby does something good just playing. As a first sub in the paint, on a team full of JSOC assassin scorers, more often what the team needs is Coleby just playing; i.e., bumping and guarding and reaching as high as he can (jumping seems beyond hope yet). But Bragg gave the team just what it needed against UCD. So: despite my being ecstatic for Coleby for getting a tournament moment and getting us through a potentially serious jam with Josh and Landen getting a little fouled up, I'm still thinking the key here is that these two guys are the ever inventive Self inventing the composite backup.
Purdue IMHO is our worst nightmare for a first round game in the weekend of the Sweet 18/Elite Eight. They are brawny inside like MSU was, and they've got experience and a few decent shooters outside. Strangely, I see Purdue as an acid test. We have to not just beat them, but find a way to conserve the energy budget doing it, AND not get too banged up. If we have to leave it all on the floor vs. Purdue, I don't see how we can win the second game. So: we need a hot hand to help avoid needing to grind with them and be drug into the same kind of smash mouth Izzo gave us.
NOVA? What can I say? All the Buckies on this team WILL go to basketball heaven for correcting the basketball gods' mistake last season--Nova winning a ring under Jay Wrong. ON WISCONSIN!
Bad Officiating I have already posted about at length.
Brad Underwood going to Illinois proves Brad thought he had zero chance to challenge Self in the B12, and he sees a possibility of Izzo retiring. Underwood would rather compete with Painter than Self; that's how I read that. He ain't going to Champaign-Urbana because they pioneered net browsing.
Self has to be thinking about retiring. His big decision is does he want to help Tyler start a college coaching career, or a pro coaching career. I have no strong feel for which he will think is best for Tyler, but its quite possible that Self has dodged the recruiting bullet for so long now that he will want Tyler be a pro coach instead. I hope Self stays at KU, because I so thoroughly enjoy watching him come up with the next innovation each season. It has been like getting a post doc in being a KU fan watching him innovate in all the different ways he has innovated. He has completely transformed the college game. Not just a few teams play the way KU plays and run the stuff KU runs. They ALL run at least some pieces of what he has brought to the game. Its amazing! So I would like him to stay to keep inventing new stuff. But he may not have anymore new ideas. You never know. Only he knows for sure.
Oregon/Michigan? No feeling either way. I think the UM coach plays a kind of ball that is tough for Okie Ball to handle. But its always a little spooky when two Okie Ballers meet and try to let each other set tempos. I think we can get past either one.
Roy? Roy is going to be very, very, very tough for anyone to beat now that MJ signed the shoe deal that made Easygate go away. Roy is on a mission to avenge the stain on his Sear's Baby Blue synthetic blazer. He wants to win so badly he would keep coaching in a convulsion. Roy is the guy with all the talent this season. His team is loaded!!!! But they are still a little soft by today's standards. Their length concerns me greatly...even more than UK's. I am praying someone upsets Roy, frankly.
I'm glad someone connected JJ to Dr. J. At the same age they ARE quite similar though the Dr. had a less funky form on his jumper. But Josh is now doing incredibly things almost routinely. He's getting scary good.
Big Luke turns out to be a strangely good fit for this bunch of JSOC assassins. He's like the big man on the team carrying the ammunition and some of the high explosives for the assassins. And yet he's developed some big man territoriality. He has been banged around a lot this season and seen a lot of length. I don't worry about him, and more often than not good things happen when he at least touches the ball inside on a possession.
Drawing fouls--it all depends on the whistle. Odds are it will be asymmetric against KU, as usual. So drawing fouls is risky business. its going to be very tempting to Purdue, or someone, to put one of our starters out of the game the hard way. Do it and you win. Fail to and you lose. Gregg Marshall understood that a couple years ago and he was apparently the kind of guy that had players that understood too. I hope it doesn't happen, but...Izzo could have won today if he had taken the black pill. Remember: the red vs. blue was an oversimplification. Its really red vs. blue vs. black. Ask any neocon, and they will laugh about the red or blue pill choice. its the black pill that is the real temptation.
B12--COPY AND PASTE.
MVC--COPY AND PASTE
FRANK--RACK IT.
Do you have one of those Samsung TVs, or one of the microwaves, that the CIA can eavesdrop on you and distort your thinking with?
Agreed.
We have to take the good with the bad.
But its okay to note it.
Besides, I wanted to complain about the refereeing after a win to be taken seriously. :smiley:
@BShark said:
The more athletic team usually gets more calls,
Except when its KU versus MSU in the March Carney.
How shall I put this in a sportsmanlike way?
In an ESPN box score I just looked at shortly after the KU-MSU game, it indicates the refs called 16 fouls on KU and 14 on MSU.
It looks pretty symmetric, doesn't it?
Its highly improbable the jobs the referees did will ever be questioned by the talking heads in the media, nor will the NCAA leadership call for a review of the game's officiating. How could they? The refs called 16 on KU and 14 on MSU. It looks so, so, so fair on paper.
But I suspect many, if not most, KU fans that watched what appeared to this KU fan to be one of the truly disgraceful refereeing spectacles, in what has become a frequent recurrence of disgraceful refereeing spectacles besmirching the first, or second, greatest spectacle in sport, would recognize a couple inconsistencies in the referee's calls between an experienced, highly skilled basketball team (KU) and a green bunch of typically hard nosed MSU bruisers.
Fouls called on KU were mostly reaching fouls, being brutally charged into and being called ludicrously for a defensive foul, or just plain phantom fouls, like the one in which Josh Jackson was called for going over the back on a rebound in the second half, and the overhead camera showed unmistakably that there was NO contact at all.
Fouls called on MSU appeared anecdotally mostly ones where KU players were layed out on the floor, or suffered sudden changes in vector direction and momentum, after the contact, or close lined (Josh nearly getting beheaded on the sideline near mid court in the second half).
Of course, in every apparently egregiously asymmetrically whistled game, it appears to be the no-calls that really tell the story. No-calls appear to be how the refs really give one team the winning edge, and the other the short shrift. The actual asymmetric calls appear just to let the teams know which team is going to be favored. By comparison, it appears to be the no-calls that can keep inferior teams in games, and sometimes even allow them to upset opponents.
I think reciting the no calls, which might amount to as many as 4 per MSU possession during the first 30 minutes of the game would be kicking MSU when they are down and that is something no KU fan should ever do. MSU did not hire the refs. MSU did not ask for an asymmetric whistle. MSU just played the cards they were dealt. And a damned good set of calls and no calls it appeared to be.
If KU had not been so resilient, experienced, skilled, athletic, and poised, the outcome might have been different; that's how much the refs appeared to mean to this game.
Without putting too fine a point on it, it is hardly beyond the realm of possibility that KU might have beaten MSU 130-50, if the refs would have appeared to have blown even a reasonably symmetric whistle for most of the game.
But the refs appeared to say "phooey!" on synmmetry.
It would be futile (and foolish) to speculate what might be the motivation of referees to call a game the way this one was called.
Suffice it to say that even my wife, who rarely watches a basketball game and is not a KU grad, or even a big time KU fan, said it was appalling how much the referees appeared to favor MSU for extended stretches.
The only further thought of yours truly worth noting has nothing to do with referees' motivations, at all.
As a result of calling the game as the referees did, whatever their actual motivations may have been (and I do not speculate on that at all), it is a reasonable inference to draw that if the game had been called with more apparent symmetry that fans of MSU and of the Big Ten and of Eastern Time Zone basketball generally, would likely have quit watching sometime in the first half, because KU would have been too far ahead for MSU to have more than a remote chance of winning.
But again, I have not a single clue why the referees actually did call the game the way they did. It is a mystery to me. My best guess is that it is an utter coincidence that the way they called the game appeared to keep an EST and a Big Ten team in the game. They must have just been having a bad day.
Down the stretch, when KU's athleticism and experience and skill were allowed to assert themselves for what really amounted to a very short part of the game, KU literally blew MSU out of the arena.
And except for FTs and some steals, KU didn't really even play all that unusually well.
To be generous and respectful to Coach Izzo and his Spartans, they are a young team and have the makings of maturing into one of Coach Izzo's frequently fine teams.
Alas, I regret to add I lack the same optimism about this team of referees improving similarly by next season.
Rock Chalk!!!
(Note: of course, all of the above is opining and speculation by a fan from a remote location. God only knows what was really going on. It may have been the most fairly called game in the last 100 years or so.)
Did Any of Marsha's Players Get Their Elbows Attacked by UK Player's Noses?
I missed the UK defeat of Marsha's Shockers.
Did Marsha defend his players from being "nosed" by UK?
I HATE IT WHEN THE SHOCKERS ELBOWS GET ATTACKED.
Always forgive.
Never forget.
Now that's more like a Bucketeer's sense of humor.
It was all a joke. What else can I say? You two are reading meaning in. You could also impute I am an alien space invader, but that wouldn't be true either.
Marsha's a great coach. Wish he and his Shocks, had upset U.K., so we could have had a rematch!!!!!
Hey, wait a minute! Are you two guys alien space invaders?
And heck, I bring up stuff from fifty years ago sometimes.
I'm still chapped about Jo Jo being called out of bounds vs. Texas Western.
And I'm still annoyed at Ratso Izzo's players appearing to face punch our noble team with Cole and Sherron.
Aren't fans kind of wimpy and feeble minded if they can't recall what happened in terms of highs and lows in the game over several decades?
C'mon, @mayjay and @Texas-Hawk-10, fan-up, will ya?
Enjoy the game.
Nope.
You guys just can't take a joke, can you?
What happened to your senses of humor?
Nothing unsual happened two years ago. NOTHING!
The referees didn't even call a foul.
Nothing unusual happened.
It was just basketball.
"Let'em play!"
Its how the game is played.
No foul, no harm.
No one should complain, or be surprised, if it happens again.
Basketball is a competitive, non-contact sport.
Noses and elbows meet sometimes.
Certainly nothing to call a foul about.
In fact, I would go so far as to say it could happen again and there would be nothing at all unusual about it.
Its just basketball sometimes.
You guys have totally lost your senses of humor.
And you are way to sensy about talking about nose-elbow contact in basketball.
I attacked an elbow with my nose at least three times in my playing days.
Its just how the game is played some times.
But you know that.
Alright, I broke of the cryo ice, and I'm ready for some serious thugging with Ratso Izzo and his chain wielding Spartans.
Let's give'em a zinc acid bath in honor of the one Jimmy Hoffa supposedly got!!!!!!!!
Beat Ratso.
Beat Ratso.
BEAT RATSO IZZO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now I have to run a quick errand and will get back in time for the game.
Where is @wissox?
Yo, OUR Bucky Badgers did it to Jay Wrong!!!!!
Yeeeeeeee hawwwwwww.
All of college basketball owes the Buckies a big hug and a classic Mad Town chant with the B in "Buck'em" exchanged for four letters later in the alphabet."
BUCK'EM BUCKIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And I would detest him even if he were the worst coach, or the best coach, in college basketball history.
On the sacred wood, I want Marsha beaten, beaten badly, beaten often, and beaten by all those that know how to beat a coach that let's one of his star players elbows be attacked viciously by another team's star player's nose.
It was inexcusable that Marsha appeared to let his player's elbow be attacked without retaliation, or appeals to the referees to stop KU from further endangering his players elbows with their noses.
It was cowardly of Marsha NOT to defend his star player and his star player's elbow and demand a flagrant foul be called on Perry Ellis for cheap shotting Marsha's star by "nosing" him.
"Nosing" an opposing player's elbow is one of the most dangerous forms of cheap shotting in basketball and should never be allowed.
Marsha should always be held in contempt for what he apparently tolerated. Marsha's players depend on Marsha for guidance and protection from "nosing." They need him to stand up for the safety of their elbows. It was negligent of him not to let his star player retaliate by "nosing" Perry Ellis' elbow.
When my father played basketball back in the late 1930s, and when I played in the early 1970s, coaches and players would have considered it a team's duty to go out and "nose" several opposing players subsequently, unless the referees had done their duties, and had ejected the star player that "nosed" first Clearly, Perry Ellis appeared in the video to have "nosed" the Wichita player's elbow without provocation. .
Marsha broke a cardinal unwritten rule of basketball IMHO, when he did not order one of his players to retaliate by "nosing" one of Perry Ellis' teammates that replaced Perry when Perry left the game self-injured from "nosing" one of Marsha's star players.
I believe the basketball gods are just and that some day Marsha and one of his team's players will pay the price for what Marsha apparently allowed to happen to his star player's elbow.
An elbow, like a brain, is a terrible thing to waste.
Nosing should be outlawed once and for all.
Chalk Rock!
(Note: no malice. All fiction.)
If Wayne can ever get his mental game stabilized, he can play in the show.
His highs are fine. He just can't get so low.
KU walked on a UC-Davis' cake and iced it by 40 or so.
Warm shooting--40% plus from Trey and 85% FTs.
6 blocks and 6 steals meant disruption we won't see again.
TOs a leeeeeetle high.
Starters played great--All five in double figures with Lucas double double.
Bragg went 6/5 in 13 minutes--the Carlton we need.
Vick sputtered offensively, but played solid floor game for 24 minutes to rest our perimeter.
Coleby and Lightfoot limited to mop up.
Rebounds: KU+double digits.
Self ran his wrinkle free offense, so Ratso will have to guess what Self might drop on MSU.
Self did send Ratso one text: our guys look rested and springy.
Frank's legs looked almost new.
Svi appeared to have benefitted most from the rest.
Now it's time to set the rat traps of Ratso, dawn the mouth pieces, cups and Kevlar, and go slay us some Spartans.
RATSO WILL TURN IT INTO SMASH MOUTH.
Josh seems the prime target for the first face punch.
But everyone will catch some Izzo stuff.
Smash back 'birds!!!!
First, it appears already time to call bull biscuits on "on-going narratives", same as it came time for calling bull biscuits on "conspiracy theory".
"On-going narratives" is for suckers, same as "conspiracy theories."
I reject all "on-going narratives," unless scientifically proven as empirically verified fact at a 95% confidence interval. I've had it with tolerance about these kinds of weaponizations of language.
Further, I reject all "on-going narratives" attributed to me, since I know my own thoughts and can assert unequivocally that I intend to proffer no "on-going narratives." Zero. Zip.
I offer hypotheses occasionally and discuss data points and possibly related situations, if and when they arise. I also speculate, opine, do comedy, analyze a little and generally kibitz with board rats. I proffer no "on-going narratives" unless everything one posts were considered "an on-going narrative." I am quite unplanned about my own future content here. I haven't a clue what i might write tomorrow, so I know I am not crafting an "on-going narrative," intentionally. And if it's occurring randomly, well, then time and randomness will fix that.
So, to reiterate: "On-going narratives" is for suckers.
And as an aside, isn't "on-going narrative" a trendy rhetorical device (meme?) of fake news; i.e., a vernacular of purveyors of disinformation? You don't want to be lumped with that group of mind copulators. Heck, I may have thoughtlessly used the term once or twice, too. But I'm going cold turkey on it now that I see how it appears to be tending to be used recently.
Next. Hmm. You appear to mean that your recollection differs from my recollection about what it appeared to you that I once appeared to you to believe.
Hmmm again.
If you are going to claim you recollect what I meant in my mind more accurately than I do, then I don't see how you can expect to be taken seriously by me, or anyone else. It's tough enough for me to figure out what I mean sometimes. I just don't know how you could get in my mind and know more what I mean than I do? Unless some one in MK-Ultra in Langley has developed a "retroactive mind meaning" device, I just don't see how you can persuasively claim to know more what I "meant" than I do.
Similarly, anything I say in the present I have to think I know more what I "mean" than you know what I mean. And vice versa. Capice?
We can debate our positions on issues, but surely we at least still get to insist on what we mean/meant, as a point of departure.
And I reckon we get to change our minds and acknowledge doing so, too, but I am not wittingly trying to change my mind on you, and would happily say so if I were.
I understand my own bungling at communication, or some bungling on your end, could cause you to misunderstand my intended meaning. And I could inaccurately recall what I said. But surely at the end of the day I am more likely to recall what I meant than you are likely to recall what I meant, because, well, because I'm in my head and you're not and never were. You might even remember my written words more accurately (you a have time or two, but I doubt it in this case), but surely I am still more reliable an indicator as to their intended meaning, than you, regardless.
If A starts an exchange with B and A believes A knows more about what B means in B's mind, or meant in B's mind, than B does, that makes conversational exchange futile--and borderline Orwellian.
I consider hypotheses and explore possible data as situations arise and/or thoughts occur to me. I have no grand plan betrayed by "an on-going narrative."
"On-going narrative" is for suckers.
Rock Chalk!
OMG! Thx for the assist. Forgot the definitive wine school!!!!!
Also, I think plate tectonic theory may have started there.
I recall you posting it. And I recall being glad you posted it. And I recall interpreting it 180° opposite of how you interpreted it. I still do. Pitino appeared to be commenting with bitter irony. You took him literally. Regardless, I fail to grasp how someone that watched the three Adidas coaches I have listed recruited and compared it with the way the Nike coaches mentioned recruited since 2008 could without tongue probing deep in cheek infer that there appears to be symmetry in recruited talent distribution independent of shoe brand.
I think board rats are confusing hatred of disrespectful, bottom dealing, kick you when you're down jerks with coaching excellence.
I think Rat face, Cal, Jay Wrong and Marsha and Stumpy are very good coaches, when on a Nike teat and getting a favorable whistle. But none of them could out coach Self, Pitino, and Bo Ryan (when he was still coaching) even up. Hell, Cal couldn't even beat Self with a bunch of ringers in 2008 and barely sneaked by with 6 OADs and Self without a McD in 2012.
I hate the coaches above because they are jerks exploiting unfair advantages and engaging preemptively in dirty play on a frequent basis. Well, Cal doesn't play dirty. He just recruits slimy. And Jay? Well, he's just a jerk to opposing coaches and players.
Well, I really don't hate them, but I have a clinically strong dislike of them.
Yep, Knight's assistant took his guys once, and Crean had a good team for 1-2 years, and Sampson even gathered some guys if I recall correctly.
IU would be a good program to build, if the fans would ever recognize the Shoe wars recruiting constraints. A coach can have occasional deep threats there with adidas, same as Self at KU and Pitino at Ville, but the Knight loyalists MIGHT NOT even settle for what KU and Ville fans have.settled for.
@mayjay said:
Tell me, which is worse, “Marshall is insane” or "Bill Self is an idiot"?
Okay, I can resolve this right now.
Marshall should be called "clinically unwise" for signing with an adidas contracted school.
No, I know @mayjay and that wouldn't suffice.
Okay, Marshall would be just "unwise" to go with an adidas contracted program, because of the apparent recruiting constraints that imposes, when he could easily step up to a even a major and get the advantage of a Nike conveyor.
Marshall is a super coach. He is tough as nails, smart and ruthless. Not just any coach would have had the balls to have "provoked" Perry Ellis into viciously attacking the WSU guard's elbow with Perry's nose.
I have said for a long time that I want KU to beat the bejeezus out of Marshall (wherever he is) for what he and his Shockers did to KU, when we were down. He kicked the hell out of us and took names later.
He is a terrific coach IMHO.
But he not only beat us, he dragged us into an alley and kicked the hell out of us.
SO: WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND AND HE'S GOING TO COME AROUND AGAIN AND WHEN HE DOES, I HOPE WE CAN BEAT HIM THE WAY ROY BEAT PITINO--150 TO 60 OR SO.
I DON'T WANT ANY OUR OF OUR GUYS TO ATTACK MARSHALL'S GUYS ELBOWS WITH OUR NOSES AGAIN.
I WANT OUR GUYS ELBOWS TO BE OFFERED UP FOR ATTACK BY THEIR GUYS NOSES.
ITS NOT PERSONAL.
ITS SPORTS.
ITS BILL BALL.
YOU HAVE TO PLAY IT ANYWAY THEY WANT.
So: yea, no one's driving a wedge between @HighEliteMajor and me.
We debate vigorously enough without any assistance.
And we respect each other, especially when we differ.
Rock Chalk!
@ et al
Marshall would be silly to move to an adidas contracted school in this recruiting environment. Or a UA contracted school for that matter. Unless....some deal has been worked out behind the scenes in Deep Basketball regarding Shoe Wars.
If he were the coach many here believe him to be, his chances of sustained success would be much greater at any major with a Nike contract.
People are forgetting that Indiana has not been an elite program, frankly, since Bob Knight left, and even Knight's last several years after the 1976 team were notable for him fighting corruption and so not being allowed the best recruits money could then buy. Knight won a title or two just on sheer brilliance and one or two excellent college players on a team (e.g., Alford's teams).
Indiana has never been a consistently good program during the life time of the high schoolers currently playing basketball.
Recruiting Indiana basketball under an adidas contract is about like recruiting Arkansas or Purdue under an adidas contract. Its been ages since they were considered elite programs and with adidas you better be one hot number in the minds of high schoolers, or you are never going to sign the 3-stars and 4-starts Self finds to glue together with his 1 OAD a season to stay even in the top half of a power conference.
@BeddieKU23 said:
It wasn’t meant to be an analogy, more a comparison point of how a lot of coaches tend to find themselves back where it started
Ok, change my wording from analogy to what you said you meant above and then my reasoning remains the same.
Exactly, and how do you think he would be doing at Drake without the Koch thang?
XCLNT coaches deserve more loathing when their excellence depends primarily on shoe brand advantage.
Marshall at an adidas major will win no more than Marshall at a Nike mid major backed by Koch money.
I think Pitino, Alford, Crean and Self are better than most all Nike coaches simply by winning a conference title with 1/2 to 3/4s the player talent/depth combination.
Marshall would be insane to go to an adidas program unless adidas and Nike have buried the hatchet.
Not sure if the analogy holds, because Alford has a good dad and no mentor pulling him neurotically back home. It would be easier to beat the adidas limitation in LA. More stray talent there. But if Steve and wife love the Midwest then yes he should take it.
IU will probably pay him a lot more and that could decide it. UCLA tends to under pay.
UC-Davis is one of those gems that folks often don't know about. Out of this world academics. As different from the rest of California as Lawrence is from the rest of Kansas. A campus as flat and arid as western Kansas, but only a short drive to the Bay Area and the Sierras. Close to Sacramento the way KU is close to KC. Created as the premier UC Ag/vet school, it quickly spiraled into ecology and geology also. Not visually impressive, but an intense college culture once you're in it. The Vet school is big in both Ag and Equine. Equal of Cornell and KSU. Maybe better currently. Don't know their hoops, but if they do something there, they aim to be good.
The minute I read Harry Edwards was lecturing at Lawrence some months back I just had a feeling Martin was gone and Harry was looking.
Zo is short timing schools. He gets the game. They hire him to meet their African American requirement through hoops, and that leaves them free to hire white football coaches. He gives a respectable season, is the broom that sweeps out the skeletons, gets billed as a turn around guy that solves "the racial" and the skeletons, and boom! Next program for more bones.
He's another solid coach. He could probably get above .600, if he stayed put, but there's too much money in solving "the racial" and sweeping skeletons right now.
Good for Zo.
It's a business and a profession, not a charity. MU is just another stop.
Smart.
Agree Alford is an option. UCLA and IU are adidas constrained.
$7 million is NOTHING. If Ryancare goes through, every billionaire is going to have another $7M in his pocket, plus the other Trump gimmes will leave another $10-100M in corporate coffers. Plus Pence will make it rain from D.C.
It comes down to lifestyle. They've cleaned up the air and crime and graffiti on the west side of LA. It's an easy hump to a private jet on the west side. Life is sweet in LA with money and a hedge. Arena size is irrelevant in the TV-Shoe era. Hawaii is a shorter hop than the carribean. The only downside is LA and the UC system will be in the cross hairs of the Trump-Pence Admin. Adelson will be looking for LOVE or SCORCHED EARTH in California. Pence will flood Indiana with Federal bones. Life will be good in Hoosier land, especially if Trump is sacrificed. Alford is a long time gone and his dad has reputedly been with him.
Up to Steve, but both schools are fickle.
If IU had a Nike contract, I believe Marsha or more likely Archie Miller would already have been ordered by Nike, er, chosen to take the job, like good little Nike coaches.
But if IU had a Nike contract, Crean would have gotten more players and won enough to stay. The guy learned under Izzo, won at Marquette, resurrected IU, and knows his stuff,
IU has an adidas albatross around its neck, so Nike coaches will be wary of IU, unless IU is ready to sign with Nike, or unless they are late enough in their career they figure the IU adidas money is a tradeoff with kissing (and pissing) off the Nike mafia..
As an adidas school, IU logically needs a coach with adidas ties and one willing to live with the adidas constraint of limited players in exchange for adidas money and independence from the octopus with swooshes on his tentacles.
Tom Crean did not fail as a coach at IU. He is a decent coach. He apparently failed at IU-adidas, because adidas apparently quit being able to deliver the players needed in sufficient numbers and Crean is not as good of a coach as Self. Crean apparently could not overcome the "player diet" that Self has apparently kept finessing around for a string of conference titles, instead of the string of national titles he would likely have gotten at a Nike elite.
The advantage of an elite program in a power conference with a Nike contract appears to mean someone like midmajor Stumpy Miller can get a steady stream of top talent from day one at a major.
Archie Miller could do the same at UA, as Stumpy. So could Marsha. So could Crean. So could Joe Dooley. So could any solid coach. At UA-Nike, top rank talent and depth appear never in short supply. At IU-adidas, and KU-adidas, they increasingly seem to be.
Indiana has to adjust its sights down a little to take the adidas money, same as KU did.
IMHO, Crean's recruiting volume has apparently trended downward congruent with Pitino and Self in recent seasons. Each signed a few top players, but not enough. And their declines in recruiting volumes appear greater proportionally than the declines at NIKE elites.
Bottom line? Self, Pitino and Crean don't appear to have stables as full as Coach K, Cal, Roy and Stumpy, even after the gaudy bling of long stacking ended.
Anyone with a brain can see that KU with Self and a Nike contract and the level and quantity of talent Nike elites have gotten would likely have won several rings instead of one.
It appears adidas schools are trading off less talent volume for more money volume.
IU is frustrated. They want the adidas money, but they want to win more than adidas players allow. Wah wah!
In their frustration, Crean looks like Kek the frog and so makes a good scapegoat for a Chancellor and AD rolling in dough, but with grumbling fans. Get rid of froggie little Crean, who resurrected their corrupted mess of a program, and try someone else, while the higher ups keep the adidas bones; that seems the dynamic.
If Stumpy Miller, who faces his own appearance challenges, but not the recruiting volume deficiencies, were at IU, he too would probably be being sacrificed.
It's all sickening.
Joe Dooly is probably a good fit. He is late enough in his career that the adidas money now could make kissing off Nike worth it. He's got adidas ties through KU. He is a resourceful coach that understands the adidas limits.
And he has funny ears, so IU can fire him in four years and keep taking the adidas bones.
(Note: all speculation and opining.)
DREAMS
KU shoots 15% from trey and 50% from he FT stripe and still beats winner of NC Central/UCD out rebounding them +20 and guarding them into a black hole.
KU shoots 55% from trey and 85% from the FT line and crushes MSU without getting injured from Izzo thugging.
Vermont upsets ice cold Purdue and Nevada beats ice cold ISU, then Nevada beats Vermont and KU shoots a tepid 35% from trey and its usual 65% but guards its way to a narrow win over Nevada.
Oregon under Dana Altman wades through the bottom bracket as expected, and KU shoots well and from the FT line, and Self just plain outsmarts Altman with too many clever in bounds plays and defensive wrinkles between two of the premier Okie Ballers coaching these days.
KU beats Duke again.
Self coaches the greatest game of his career completely fooling Stumpy on both ends of the floor and KU has a hot hand wins the ring.
NIGHTMARES
It all works out the same way except KU blows cold late and the refs select Arizona and let Stumpy get away with being a punk with dark circles around his eyes, as Stumpy taunts Self and calls KU the most overrated team that ever reached the finals.
When I look at your two lists for DE it seems like fairly wide dispersion around a mean..
Further, in the first list, Duke's 2015 team and UConn's 2011 team stand out as both most similar to this 2017 KU team in reliance on offense, and to significantly have poorer than average defensive efficiency ratings, though not as poor as 2017 KU. The Duke and UConn teams seem like miner's canaries for us to focus on. What would be interesting to know is if their offensive efficiencies were unusually high and so allowed them to be a little weaker and still win.
Here is a QA thought.
How about weighting the defensive efficiency rankings for each of the teams listed, but especially Duke and UConn, with season average for points per possession.
DE x PPP = DE weighted for PPP (a measure of offensive efficiency).
If DE weighted for PPP were similar for UConn, Duke and 2017 KU we might all sleep better for the next few weeks. :smile:
In the tourney, It's more and more about how many can bring their best on demand.
Bragg and Coleby are now decisive for better or worse.
They HAVE to give the team something extra for it to get to a FF!
They appear to be the only ones that could substantially improve AND make us better where deficient.
Gut check time for these two, long backups.
One of the best pre tournament analyses of a team's weaknesses i have ever read ANYWHERE!
I mean it.
Your smooth, comfortable writing--easy to read--just keeps surprising me with facts that steadily accumulate into a persuasive explanation of why our very good team is also so peculiar.
Thanks!
PHOF!
Danny and the Deacons...what a nice ring!!!!
Don't want to be discouraging, but....
It is reputed the flat screens , or a certain portion of them, can also be switched into camera mode. The dedicated camera is reputedly just the diversion.
Always remember about intelligence apparatus: there are always multiple paths created specifically to allow several limited hangouts. They reputedly always engineer several layers of deception, so they can give up a few layers as credible secrets in the spy-counterspy game and occasionally when busted.
Intelligence IMHO is really partly applied magic, in the sense of magic being about illusions created with diversions. Different tricks require different distractions, often several of them at once to make the illusion work for all members in the audience.
Don't tell that to your Samsung flatscreen TV, or your microwave.
They did in large the envelope