Can't ignore UK's Alex Groza, who won 2 NCAA championships and was named the MOP of the Final 4 twice (1948-49). Scored 2,925 points.
And probably would have scored more if he had not been involved with some teammates in point-shaving at Kentucky, which after being discovered in 1951 got him banned for life from the NBA after only 2 years.
Seems like an iconic player to me--represents all the good and bad for that program!
@dylans Yeah, got sucked in by political bait. Sorry. The topic is way too complex for simple answers suitable for Board rants.
It did get me thinking about football and basketball scholarships, though, which pay full freight, as opposed to baseball scholarships, that usually are split among lots of players because only get something like seven full ones. Edit: they can use 11.7 scholarships, have a maximum of 27 players on scholarship, and everyone on scholarship has to receive at least a 25% scholarship.
How do baseball players make up the difference? Work study? Loans?
@approxinfinity Good point. College costs were rising exponentially long before anyone came up with these ideas. More importantly, however, there is no free ride due merely to their status. But no one seems able to read. The school is merely doing the loans directly to make sure all necessary funds are available if work study is not an option.
I guess some people would rather these kids, most of whom were brought here by parents, not become educated despite qualifying academically for Emory. Apparently society would benefit if they were forced into low-wage jobs, lived in squalor, and were in poor health. Then maybe they would go back where they came from--5, 10, or 20 years ago. They might have no ties there, and might not even speak the language, and they are likely to be preyed upon when they arrive, but that is just the cost of purification, so who cares?
@JayHawkFanToo I just responded to your statement that Emory was footing the bill. Not so, but Breitbart leads astray again.
@brooksmd I told my stockbroker brother to get Apple and Microsoft early on. He shorted them instead. :anguished:
@JayHawkFanToo If you read your own source, you will see that like financial aid packages to most students, it consists of loans and work study in addition to grants and scholarships. Loans where work study is not available.
@justanotherfan I think you must not have looked at the UConn resume very closely if you think they only became good in the 80s. More NCAA appearances (13) through the '70s than KU had (12), plus conference titles 12 out of 13 years from 1948 to 1960, including 10 in a row.
Even if you start in the 80s, sure seems that UConn gets in based on their 5 F4s and 4 titles. KU has the purer coaching bloodline, but it sure seems hard to say UConn has no history before Calhoun.
@BShark It was hard. So very very verrrrry... sniff.... hard.
BShark said:
Always nice to beat up on the Os.
The Os still give me Baseball-related PTSD. Do you remember the first two years of the Royals when they lost to Baltimore 23 out of 24 games? Oh, the horror....
So, a sweep helps put that 47 year memory further back. 2014 playoffs helped, too!
@Lulufulu Nice list, but there is no way USC deserves mention in this group. Perhaps UConn would be a good substitute.
USC:
!0_1494814164391_2017-05-14 22.08.10.png ↗
UConn:
!0_1494814197139_2017-05-14 22.06.29.png ↗
!0_1494814214011_2017-05-14 22.05.37.png ↗
!0_1494814852842_2017-05-14 22.17.25.png ↗
I might be tempted to place UConn in the blue blood list rather than a cousin, but that might make a certain other Board Rat too happy at my concession!
(Please forgive the format issues with the screen shots. The USC screen cut off an NCAA appearance in 1997.)
@HighEliteMajor Thanks for the update. I agree with your last paragraph.
BUT, I am utterly shocked that no one has even considered the possibility that all these dozens of graduate transfers might really just be transferring to attend an institution that offers a desired graduate program not available at their alma matria. Isn't that what the NCAA requires of graduates to avoid a 1-year wait? Basketball is clearly secondary!
Okay, no, I couldn't write that with a straight face.....
@Crimsonorblue22 Always fun to see someone more than double their average! From .048 to .120!
@Crimsonorblue22 Oh! Mea culpa! I was so used to seeing the Soria name variations my mind just went there. Oops! Sorry I Am!
@Crimsonorblue22 I think he had an abysmal year last year that significantly hurt KC's chance to be competitive. But I also think a number of other players did. As a reliever, his failures were more visible, but on the whole I think he has returned to form better than, say, Gordon, or your "Sexy Esky"! I don't particularly like him, but I can't see hating on him even when he does perform. But I understand cringing because of not knowing what to expect.
Then again, did the Royals just re-sign Albuquerque again? Ai yi yi!
@jaybate-1.0 That we can do! On the transfers, I think it is due to some players having more options after playing elsewhere than they did when graduating from HS. They might have been under-recruited because of poor exposure by not being AAU participants, they might have had unpolished skills due to inadequate HS coaching, they might have been immature and not handled recruiting well, they might have made an initial college choice based on non-basketball reasons like friends or family, they might just have gotten better...a myriad of reasons.
Why Self would want them is exactly as he says, to fit a need. He fills holes. I think he may appear to be taking kids from programs in the 30 to 200 rankings not from desperation but because those are precisely the ones who may be seen as able to move up to more elite schools.
With transfers who sit out, like the Lawsons, he gets monster practice players who can only improve while improving the eligibles. With graduate transfers, he fills an immediate gap with no long term risk.
Consider something else: where did all the KU's transfers who have left gone? Did they go to other blue bloods? Or, as I propose, do they generally go to secondary level schools?
I cannot vouch for the accuracy of my observations, but it seems there are very few top-tier players transferring between blue bloods. And there are very few really good players or starters transferring out of blue bloods in general. Good players move up to play at more elite schools, bench players move down to get more playing time.
@Crimsonorblue22 You will never like him, will you?
@KUSTEVE Well, with a relaxed attitude like that I don't know if you can be allowed to participate here on Panic Central.....
@approxinfinity No, never watched. Maybe we will look it up now that some of our favorite shows have gotten axed. ("Timeless"??? "Oh, no, Mr. Bill! Not the axe!")
@KUSTEVE I think your problem with the Embiid prediction was just your wording. Consider what you could have said, when he first declared and still had time to return: "No way does Embiid play in the NBA next year!" 100% true!
We would have started asking you for lottery numbers and horses' names.
@Crimsonorblue22 Yikes, adding KU to the search brings up all those bad reminder articles from the KC Rag!
She could possibly get a waiver from sitting out due to circumstances. We all might question how it happened, but technically she is the named victim in a formal criminal proceeding, and I suspect the NCAA goes easy when that happens. I cannot imagine how she would fare if she stayed in a town that is probably 95% convinced she tried to ruin LV and JJ..
@JayHawkFanToo I would take Frank Martin over Bruce Weber any day of a Neptunian length year. Frank just rebuilt a program over a course of 5 years from the utter depths of darkness to a Final 4.
I do happen to think that is a better job than taking a Final 4-caliber team to not being in the tournament in a mere 2 years, and winning 3 whole NCAA games in 12 years. (One this year in the First Four in Dayton.)
But you are right, we can disagree on whether terms like "good," "bad," "mediocre," or "deluded self-aggrandizing whiny jerk" apply to Weber. Not on one thing, though: my dislike of Weber is not out of bias, but on a combination of his record and his lack of respect for the coaches who paved his way. You never saw any KU coach trashing a successful predecessor to try to raise his own sense of worth. (Incidentally, I dislike Boeheim almost entirely due to his whiny personality. His record would normally be a reason to try to like him more, but not after his NCAA sanctions that have caused me not to have any respect for him. I dislike Cal, but grudgingly admire his success.)
As for Shaka, please read that again. I never said he was good. But people are saying Bruce is good because he went to the Final 4. I simply asked why no one thinks that of Shaka.
@Crimsonorblue22 Where are you seeing this? I can't find any recent news reports about our favorite girl.
@JayHawkFanToo Oh, heck, based on those 3 -- count 'em, 3 -- victories in the NCAA tournament in the past 12 -- count, 'em, 12 -- years, let's just say he has been mediocre at best.
And for those of you pointing out his KSU teams have beaten KU sometimes, and wow! almost beat us other times (while ignoring the overall record), and extolling his single F4 run, I have heard no one asserting that Shaka proved his quality coaching bona fides by beating KU and taking perennial powerhouse VCU to a single F4.
He was good at SIU, he managed to do well with Self's leftover elite talent at Illinois for 2 years, and he has not distinguished himself since. That tie for the Big 12 championship? Again, success with another coach's recruits -- Frank Martin's after he ran out of Silo T as fast as he could. Big 12 champion, yes, and out in the round of 64, again. .500 record in the Big 12 overall. More years in the bottom half of the conference than the top. Like Illinois, a nice start, then a pretty rapid race out of sight.
You can admire him all you want, but to me he strikes no chord remotely sounding like good.
@dylans His technical at the end of one game, if I recall correctly, cost them any chance of tying that game.
@HighEliteMajor My reiteration of his performance at Illinois was not intended to do anything other than highlight his lack of success with his own recruits. Self thought his last two recruiting classes at Illinois were among his best, and their performance certainly proved it. That does not detract from the fact that it still takes good coaching in the tournament, and Weber did that. But I hate Weber for acting like he is solely responsible for assembling the team.
The teams he assembled and coached? The next seven years are a much better measure of his abilities in both facets of coaching, and that isn't based on anything but him.
@tis4tim Well, besides his total obsession with the non-call on the travel, there are a few other things. Just this year, he contended after losing twice to KU that KSU played harder than KU in both games. He is always going out onto the court during play, and has been seen pushing his player toward the position he wanted him to be in. He whines incessantly about bad calls, even many games later. These all are on top of similar behaviors over the years.
Worst of all was the Self "funeral" at Illinois, but it needs to be mentioned in connection with his bragging recently about taking Illinois further than ever before, without mentioning that the squad that made it to the NCAA Final was recruited by Self. And that Weber, after Self's recruits left for the NBA in 2005, consistently coached the Illini to worse records resulting in his being fired in 2012.
!0_1494535808077_Screenshot_2017-05-11-16-48-51.png ↗
So, yeah, a few of us are tired of him. I like that he gives guys like DJ Johnson a shot, but I feel bad that guys like DJ are condemned to being associated with such a whiny coach.
@Crimsonorblue22 What did he say about Svi?
@jaybate-1.0 Sorry, not engaging. It was a joke, on myself as much as you. If you wish to have a discussion about vaccines, you will need a new partner.
@jaybate-1-0 I am more convinced than ever that you must be having chemical issues: how on earth did you miss Trump University?
All fun, no facts!
@globaljaybird We need a bumper sticker: I CAN'T STAND INTOLERANCE!
I went away to watch recorded SNL from last night.
Most interesting stat of the playoffs: The Wizards won by 19 points. Every bench player had a negative +/-, two of them in negative dbl digits. Oubre's replacement had a +/- of -14.
When I said they should not sub anymore, just play starters, I might have blundered onto something!
Wall is amazing. Maybe try playing the starters only, no subs?
Well, the guy getting our Kelly's minutes does have 2 rebs, 2 fouls, and 1 point.
@BShark Not just Duke's!
@approxinfinity Yeah, that was a great theory they offered.
At the moment, Oubre-less home team Wizards' subs are severely out of sorts in the second quarter, and Olynyk is playing great. The Oubre Strategy is getting exposed as not so hot in keeping the other Kelly O in check.
@JayHawkFanToo I have not defended Olynyk, but you might be utterly shocked to learn the Celtics think he is a gentle giant who is just misunderstood.
Oh, for Lawdy's sake, please let it rest before I look for some drug to take! Like hemlock!
@jaybate-1.0 The wiki page lists many of the schools you included as former members, and some as only associate members. The post about hallucinogens was due to you being so uncharacteristically wrong that I assumed there had to be a chemical explanation!
Mushrooms? Acid? Meth?
C'mon, @jaybate-1-0, you trippin' or just on overdrive? 💥💥💥
@JayHawkFanToo My point was that the refs had just called the illegal screen, so they obviously were aware, and so Oubre accomplished nothing except to make the incident about him. And Washington's short bench makes the push dumber.
@JayHawkFanToo Okay, we will try it your way. "Wow, that was a clever play by Oubre to get tossed! 20 pt lead got stretched to 27 by the end because his push and ejection magically stopped bench player Olynyk from playing so much!"
Nah, not with a straight face. But you are right that the refs will get more scrutiny. And that won't matter.
@jaybate-1.0 Nice profile. And, let us note that the NBA All Defensive Team was begun only in 1969, and that blocked shots were not even an official stat while Wilt played (1959-73). As my friends at Wikipedia say, "Had they accounted for blocked shots in his era (blocks were not recorded until the 1973–1974 season), Wilt Chamberlain would be the all-time career leader in blocked shots, blocks per game average and blocked shots in a game (26)."
A heck of a lot of players in basketball have been the victims of dirty plays without being stupid after. There is no value to being kicked out of a playoff game in the 2nd quarter and earning a suspension. He would get the same result if Olynyk had not fallen. You just don't run up and slam someone in front of the ref.
You earn a "don't push him around" rep by playing physically yourself, holding your ground, etc. You earn a "let's see what we can provoke" rep by doing what he did here.
Ain't no one on the Celtics feeling intimidated by a Wizard getting himself thrown out of the game by being stupid with what really looked like a mad third grader's playground shove in front the teacher. Celtics are smirking, not shirking.
I love seeing snow on the field!
I was thinking Olynyk played dirty in the last game, but our Kelly has to realize that this stuff just gets you a bad rep. Let the other guy get the rep, and just return the favor someday with a pick of your own. Hard to disguise a run/shove move after a stoppage of play when the other guy has just gotten called for the offensive foul. Instead of a great defensive play in taking a charge and getting a turnover, boom! To the locker room. And it happened only 11 seconds after a nice Oubre shot.
Wow, indeed! Refs sure have figured out how to defuse the tension in this series!
Eight technicals in the game, 3 ejections including Oubre on a flagrant 2. Word is he will likely be suspended. Not sure the reaction to a hard pick was justified, and you can't help your team if you are in street clothes. Respond on the court to make 'em pay.
Kelly O vs Kelly O! Who could predict that co-ink-eedink?
I didn't know the son of Tubby part. Seems like the big issue was the Ath Director's premature and ill-considered promise. Tubby should certainly have the right to choose his own staff.
@dylans UNC had a 3 OT game in the semifinal, too.
@RockkChalkk @HighEliteMajor @JayHawkFanToo
What blew up is the AD promised the father he could keep the ass't coaching job after Pastner left, but Tubby brought in his own staff and demoted him to a job where he was not allowed to coach his kids at all. Created a huge mistrust issue. The dad had won a state HS championship, so he has legit coaching experience. Salary was not an issue.
@dylans Welcome, all, to Rock Chalk Station! Ride the Self Express to Italy, and to points beyond!
Kcmatt7 said:
@mayjay I don't see that here.
http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/lou/genrel/auto_pdf/comp-rules-managers.pdf ↗
Looks like a partial discussion only of some rules and proposed changes or comments.
Besides, that is from Louisville, and doesn't say their managers can't be pimps, and look where that got them!