🏀 KuBuckets Archive

Not the news I wanted to see this morning. Some highlights from the article:

"Schools identified by Yahoo! as possibly violating NCAA rules include Duke, North Carolina, Texas, Kentucky, Michigan State, USC and Kansas. At least 25 players are linked to impermissible benefits, including Michigan State's Miles Bridges, Alabama's Collin Sexton and Duke's Wendell Carter."

"At least six players were identified in the documents as receiving payments exceeding $10,000. They include Dallas Mavericks point guard Dennis Smith Jr., who received $73,500 in loans from ASM before he played for NC State; Brooklyn Nets shooting guard Isaiah Whitehead, who received more than $37,000 around the time he was a freshman at Seton Hall; and 2017 No. 1 NBA draft pick Markelle Fultz, who received $10,000."

"Other teams with current or former players who allegedly received payments were South Carolina, Louisville, Utah, Xavier, Wichita State, Clemson and Alabama. Other players named include former LSU guard Tim Quarterman, former Maryland center Diamond Stone and former Kentucky center Edrice "Bam" Adebayo."

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/22553502/fbi-probe-corruption-reveals-basketball-powers-broken-ncaa-rules ↗

I’ve said this from the start. If we’re going down, all of college basketball is going down with us.

@HighEliteMajor Meh. Big nothingburger as far as KU is concerned still. That was about as vague as it possibly could be. It gave out all of the hard information that it gathered listing Bridges (YAY!), Abedayo (YAY!), Smith Jr , Fultz, Wendell Carter (YAY!)

But still no KU player. Mentions KU as possibly, but again, no hard facts. Not even a player they mention.

And all of it doesn't matter if KU didn't know the player had received payments.

@HighEliteMajor My favorite comment on the article from ESPN's stable of fans who comment on every article:

"Whew, Duke is involved so nothing will happen. Thought this was significant at first glance."

@HighEliteMajor Did not want to see that, but given the previous rhetoric, not surprising. Many players and teams affected. What are they going to do? Vacate wins from many, many teams last year? Hold a bevy of players out of the Tourney? This is a mess that has been years in the making.

Funny they list all of the players that got paid and the school associated with that player but left out Kansas? If they are going to group KU in the mix at least tell the reader how KU is involved? As far as I can tell KU (assuming they know) sidelines their Guys if they think there is a problem. This article is garbage and KU should get their lawyer involved to have their name removed unless ESPN can provide sufficient evidence as to KU's infraction.

Josh's mom took money, which isn't a surprise. Even Fred Van Vleet and Miles Bridges. If you are a parent and wanted to get paid, it seemed pretty easy.

https://www.yahoo.com/amphtml/sports/exclusive-federal-documents-detail-sweeping-potential-ncaa-violations-involving-high-profile-players-schools-103338484.html?__twitter_impression=true ↗

@Kcmatt7 In one, JJ's mom was mentioned.

There are players on that list that haven't played college basketball in a long ass time. So I would assume those are legal loans after the fact? I really don't know. But EJ is on there as taking a loan and obviously he graduated awhile ago.

"Apples Jones, the mother of former Kansas player Josh Jackson, received $2,700 according to documents." -- From @BShark's link

@BShark I'm hoping it is one of these guys....

!0_1519395005944_Screenshot_2018-02-23-09-08-53.png ↗

@mayjay It mentioned the Turkish team he played for further down. So I would assume he took this loan while playing in Turkey. Which I can't imagine would be an issue. There are other players on the list that were pros and the perceived time of the loan as well.

Lol these amounts are WEAK AF. This is Yahoo's big bomb?

@mayjay So, in closing, the lawyer in you would argue that there are many Elijah Johnson's in this world, and it could be one other guys? Unfortunately, NCAA rules don't have a "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard. But I like it ... heck, I knew a guy that went by EJ when I moved furniture in college. Might be that guy.

Good Luck NCAA!

BShark said:

There are players on that list that haven't played college basketball in a long ass time. So I would assume those are legal loans after the fact? I really don't know. But EJ is on there as taking a loan and obviously he graduated awhile ago.

Agents often loan potential draftees money when they sign. As do you, let's hope it was after the season ended. If not by a booster or prearranged by the school, taking money upon signing should be ok. We have had lots of players start prepping for the draft before school ended, and those flights and workouts get paid for by someone.

@HighEliteMajor Actually, that is the fan in me. The lawyer in there is wishing he still practiced so he could get a piece of this. Fortunately, the fan is still in control.

@mayjay Looks like it was Feb/Mar of 2016. So he would still have been a recruit.

Still, to me, this is such a small amount it won't be a big deal. Sexton's dad took $10k and still got to play basically all season. NCAA penalty was like 5 games or something weak like that.

EJ being taking the most (of a KU player) that we know of is kind of hilarious. But yeah assuming it was after he was done at KU then it shouldn't matter. This is from 2015, so he had graduated.

@Kcmatt7 we are talking about Elijah Johnson, he took 15k.

They actually don't even list EJ in the article but he is in the documents. That's what makes me think it was after he left Kansas. If he was at KU even possibly taking 15k, that'd make Forde so delirious he couldn't contain himself.

BShark said:

They actually don't even list EJ in the article but he is in the documents. That's what makes me think it was after he left Kansas. If he was at KU even possibly taking 15k, that'd make Forde so delirious he couldn't contain himself.

where's the full document?

The document I saw EJ on was the balance sheet . "as of December 2015". (I'm not an accountant) but that is after he left KU, could that be a remaining balance for over 2 years? I doubt it, they would have written it off as a "bad loan" right?

@BeddieKU23 https://www.yahoo.com/amphtml/sports/exclusive-federal-documents-detail-sweeping-potential-ncaa-violations-involving-high-profile-players-schools-103338484.html?__twitter_impression=true ↗

As much as you can see of it is there.

Malik Waayns is on the loan list so there are definitely guys well past playing college hoops on there.

@Kcmatt7 Truthfully, the federal indictments don't bother me. Nor the federal investigation, for that matter. That is "weak af" in my opinion, if I'm tracking with the "af" portion of that. NCAA rules violations concern me.

@mihawk They didn't list EJ as receiving the payments before he turned pro whereas they did with other players on the list that are now pros. You know Forde would be all over that. Oddly enough Fred Van Vleet did apparently. But just 1k.

@HighEliteMajor A lot of this appears to be the parents of players taking loans/cash advances while the player is still in school. Thankfully Josh is the only KU player on the list in that regard. We found out about Cliff and nipped it in the bud so my assumption would be that KU didn't know Apples took that $2,700 but maybe I'm overly optimistic.

Kevin Knox is on the list, I wonder if he will play tomorrow...

@BShark Maybe optimism .. but the question that tests integrity is what if KU found out after the fact? And then did nothing. Did not self-report.

BShark said:

@BeddieKU23 https://www.yahoo.com/amphtml/sports/exclusive-federal-documents-detail-sweeping-potential-ncaa-violations-involving-high-profile-players-schools-103338484.html?__twitter_impression=true ↗

As much as you can see of it is there.

Malik Waayns is on the loan list so there are definitely guys well past playing college hoops on there.

Looks like my work browser is blocking it, will try and view it on the phone.

BShark said:

Kevin Knox is on the list, I wonder if he will play tomorrow...

You already know the answer to that. Same with Bridges and Carter, Sexton

HighEliteMajor said:

@BShark Maybe optimism .. but the question that tests integrity is what if KU found out after the fact? And then did nothing. Did not self-report.

I say good luck proving that!

@HighEliteMajor Lol even still. These amount wouldn't have vacated wins.

Unless Bill or a coach orchestrated the loans through Miller, I don't expect us to get hit with anything based on this report alone.

The report is underwhelming, even if you include NCAA violations that could be put on schools from it.

Finally, the NCAA needs to be careful right here. If they try to make a point and crush all of these schools, that might be all of the P5 needs to just up and leave the NCAA and start pocketing all the money themselves.

@HighEliteMajor Fortunately, Self's relationship with JJ was and is good. I was always afraid of a CJ Giles or JR Giddens getting pissed they were forced out and then, out of spite, revealing that they had been taking impermissibles w/o KU knowing. Or worse, fabricating that KU arranged it.

BeddieKU23 said:

BShark said:

@BeddieKU23 https://www.yahoo.com/amphtml/sports/exclusive-federal-documents-detail-sweeping-potential-ncaa-violations-involving-high-profile-players-schools-103338484.html?__twitter_impression=true ↗

As much as you can see of it is there.

Malik Waayns is on the loan list so there are definitely guys well past playing college hoops on there.

Looks like my work browser is blocking it, will try and view it on the phone.

Dawkins flipped his entire books.

Xavier head coach Mack responded pretty aggressively: He said: “I have no relationship with Andy Miller or any of his associates. He plays no role in the recruitment of potential student athletes on Xavier’s behalf. Beyond that, our staff has never created a path for him to foster a relationship with any of our student-athletes while enrolled at Xavier. Any suggestion that I or anyone on my staff utilized Andy Miller to provide even the slightest of financial benefits to a Xavier student-athlete is grossly misinformed. We are prepared to cooperate with any and all investigations at any level.”

Kcmatt7 said:

@HighEliteMajor Lol even still. These amount wouldn't have vacated wins.

Unless Bill or a coach orchestrated the loans through Miller, I don't expect us to get hit with anything based on this report alone.

The report is underwhelming, even if you include NCAA violations that could be put on schools from it.

Finally, the NCAA needs to be careful right here. If they try to make a point and crush all of these schools, that might be all of the P5 needs to just up and leave the NCAA and start pocketing all the money themselves.

For a bombshell I'd say KU got out of this pretty well with the extent of it being Apples Jones took $2,700 before Josh turned pro. If there is more later we will find out but you know Yahoo put all they could out there and Forde certainly would mention any KU player. They wouldn't sit on something this big.

@Kcmatt7 If the NCAA doesn't do anything or at least launch an extensive investigation, they leave themselves open to suits by anyone they did punish during this time. Organizations are able to adjudicate stuff with their voluntary members, but the courts are willing to step in when the organization doesn't follow its own rules or engages in serious favoritism (which this one would be).

I think it is likely there will be a big investigation, lots of hand-wringing, a couple of public punishments for schools with staffers implicated, and then a comprehensive settlement with voluntary monetary penalties for all the schools concerned.

The NCAA will do enough to make sure no previously sanctioned school can sue and force discovery of its enforcement investigations in general, and of the details on this one.

Did you guys also see that Michael Beasley is mentioned a few times in the docs?

@mayjay Sounds pretty much spot on. :100:

@mayjay Right. I'm saying they need to slap everyone on the wrist, but don't try to make everyone the example. They need to find that sweet spot of a hefty fine, but probably no sanctions. They can put everyone on a "probation" period.

Kcmatt7 said:

@HighEliteMajor Meh. Big nothingburger as far as KU is concerned still. That was about as vague as it possibly could be. It gave out all of the hard information that it gathered listing Bridges (YAY!), Abedayo (YAY!), Smith Jr , Fultz, Wendell Carter (YAY!)

But still no KU player. Mentions KU as possibly, but again, no hard facts. Not even a player they mention.

And all of it doesn't matter if KU didn't know the player had received payments.

I read an article where Josh Jackson and/or his mom had received a 7,500 loan,

Hawk8086 said:

@Kcmatt7 In one, JJ's mom was mentioned.

So how many does it take? - - you say one. - so does it need to be 2 - -5 - -10 - -20? - -how many does it take?

@jayballer73 Um, link? I've only seen $2,700 cited.

At least this isn't really a KU problem We already knew agents preyed on players and their families.

The NBA is the one causing this with the OAD imo. So, the NCAA needs to start thinking outside of the box on rules to prevent this. Idk if maybe they require players to graduate or else they have to pay back the entire amount? Does that help? Can they themselves offer players loans up to a certain dollar amount per year? What about paying players based on academics? Every semester you complete, you get paid $2k. If they offer these incentives, they can make the punishments more harsh I think.

They need to make it an environment that players and parents don't feel like they need to go to agents to get extra cash. I'm not sure exactly how to do that, but there are brighter minds than me that could help to solve the problem.

@Kcmatt7 the hypocrisy is with the NCAA Tournament. There is no way that the NCAA is going to punish all of these teams to the point of them missing the tourney... they would miss out on a TON of revenue with the best programs in the country not going to the tournament.

I just gonna be honest I’d be pretty ticked if we had to vacate wins because JJs mom took $2,700. This is an interesting road because the NCAA hasn’t penalized the kid several tiems if they had no knowledge of it example Cam Newton’s dad getting 200K with no punishment. To make it the schools responsibility to keep not only try and keep track of the kids but what’s their parents are doing is a little crazy. Make it illegal for agents to speak to anyone related or the kids themselves. The AAU circuit and these agents are most of the issues with what’s happening IMO.

BShark said:

@jayballer73 Um, link? I've only seen $2,700 cited.

ya, my bad - -your right - -it was 2,700 so many figures in this thing. - - There is no way the NCAA can hand down sanctions o all these schools - this thing will blow up in the NCAA face.

Can you imagine if they penalize or try to penalize all these schools. - - Kentucky - - N Carolina - - Michigan State - - - Louisville - - KU- - - and so on and so on and so on - -going to be interesting what ends up happening - -this could be the straw that breaks the /camel's back ( NCAA ) where all schools back away from the NCAA. - this thing I think is still going to take a lot of time to wrap up. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

This report is some crazy transparency into the underworld. Without the details of everything how can the NCAA do anything.

Guys this will blow over because a Duke and Mich St player is mentioned. So the media will fawn over the condescending words of K and the tough words of Izzo. THey will both blame the dirty agents and not players or families. If this was just UK or Louisville or even us it would be a whole different ball game.

@kjayhawks

If they question Apples its not like she has to talk. They have zero power to do anything. Her son no longer is in College or has anything at stake to risk talking

@mihawk Agreed. And if you pissed off these schools enough, what is keeping them from starting their own P5 tournament and making ALL of the revenue?

The more I think, the more I am becoming a fan of the P5 conferences to just start their own organization. They can privatize the athletics departments 100% and keep Title IX out of the discussion. I think it would solve a lot of the current NCAA problems. The NCAA is hypocritical in the fact that they don't give 2 craps about the education the athletes receive. Only the money the athletes generate. They don't hold schools accountable for anything academically (as proven by UNC). How a player like Duvall can academically qualify at a school like Duke blows my mind. They couldn't care less. And their lies the problem.

The NCAA Mission Statement: "Our purpose is to govern competition in a fair, safe, equitable and sportsmanlike manner, and to integrate intercollegiate athletics into higher education so that the educational experience of the student-athlete is paramount."

The NCAA is not even following it's own mission statement. Which is why people do not respect them.

Let's call a spade a spade and privatize revenue producing college athletics so players can get paid in a transparent way since it is happening anyways.

BeddieKU23 said:

@kjayhawks

If they question Apples its not like she has to talk. They have zero power to do anything. Her son no longer is in College or has anything at stake to risk talking

"I never gave any money to Josh and never paid it back."

Seems easy...

@BShark

Unless Dawkins or Miller or whoever provided the money to Apples is going to detail how the situation went down, the NCAA gets the testamony explaining it, questions them, questions Apples and everyone comes clean what can they do? This goes for everyone listed.

Its an eye opener seeing just how much agents were getting involved with kids and families. There is enough information here to know things need to change.

Also remember Darnell Jackson took money from a booster and simply had to repay it. $2,700 is pretty much nothing. Doubt KU will have to vacate wins because of this.

@BeddieKU23 @BShark Here’s the other side of the coin, if it happened before JJ was even on campus or committed to KU. Is that didn’t the NCAA clearing house clear him after that?

kjayhawks said:

@BeddieKU23 @BShark Here’s the other side of the coin, if it happened before JJ was even on campus or committed to KU. Is that didn’t the NCAA clearing house clear him after that?

Proving when the money was exchanged is key. Apples doesn't have to do anything, they are not privy to her personal information. She has nothing to admit because there is nothing on the line for her son, he's not in College.

If this was a situation where the NCAA is aware that Apples received money and Josh was still in school then you have a situation (like UK, Duke, Alabama, etc face with current players listed). Those families would want to cooperate you would think.

@kjayhawks That's basically based on them submitting transcripts, checking boxes and then literally, saying you didn't accept any money.

I was cleared in less than two weeks when I applied in HS. Kind of a joke tbh.

@BeddieKU23 Duke, UK and Bama almost HAVE to sit those guys now right?

Kcmatt7 said:

@BeddieKU23 Duke, UK and Bama almost HAVE to sit those guys now right?

Bill/KU would. Doesn’t mean others will do the right thing.

So Izzo had dinners with Dawkins and potentially multiple players paid. I really thought he was clean.

@dylans Bill has over and over when any question arises. Even when Bragg was innocent last season, he sat him.

@Kcmatt7 The NCAA should ONLY be a governing body and a regulator to the P5. But right now they are making money off of all these athletes.
That's the problem. If any of these schools are punished, then it will have a negative effect on the NCAA bottom line.

I am 100% behind the P5 leaving the NCAA in the dust, but I do think there would need to be a separate governing body (that does not profit from the schools) to regulate.

@BShark link?

Kcmatt7 said:

@BShark link?

It's in the Yahoo story. Also "Villanova coaches" that one doesn't shock me one bit...

So we have a date of Feb 1 2016 for the Apples advance of 1,700. He was an unsigned prospect at the time. He did not sign with KU until the spring.

@mihawk I think it would be an organization comprised of the 100 schools. Basically, what I would envision, a Senate style of deal. Every school has 1 representative. They decide things based on votes. Every school has equal say. No separate TV deals like the LH Network. A United Athletics Programs of America. This will come after the Declaration of NCAAdependece is written. The NCAA will attempt to stop this by declaring war and cutting off supplies sent to the schools. Only to find that the schools, by bonding together, became stronger than the British, I mean NCAA.

They do say history repeats itself...

Jared Jefferies hasn't been in college in 15 years and he's on the report. This is comical that the FBI is connected to a potential NCAA amateurism question involving an athlete taking a loan for as little as $71.39.

So...that uhhh Texas Tech game should be pretty good tomorrow. It's nice that KU is on gameday for the 2nd week in a row and we'll get to see Jay-Will superman that KU blue and shortly follow with flock of boo birds.

@BShark I thought Jay was clean. However, his recent success has been unprecedented.

I thought Izzo was clean until last week with the other scandal. Now, this is making a lot of sense. He got tired of being a bad recruiter... His recruiting did pick up a ton lately and I always wondered how. Figured Nike was paying players to go. Now the picture is becoming more clear. His legacy will likely be tarnished. I don't expect him back at MSU next season at this point.

BeddieKU23 said:

So we have a date of Feb 1 2016 for the Apples advance of 1,700. He was an unsigned prospect at the time. He did not sign with KU until the spring.

Correct.

Kcmatt7 said:

@BShark I thought Jay was clean. However, his recent success has been unprecedented.

I thought Izzo was clean until last week with the other scandal. Now, this is making a lot of sense. He got tired of being a bad recruiter... His recruiting did pick up a ton lately and I always wondered how. Figured Nike was paying players to go. Now the picture is becoming more clear. His legacy will likely be tarnished. I don't expect him back at MSU next season at this point.

Izzo might just be Pitino mk 2.

Talk from other sites. - - Our consecutive conference Championships is jeopardy possibly?

https://deadspin.com/who-gives-a-shit-1823260537?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_twitter&utm_source=deadspin_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow&__twitter_impression=true&__twitter_impression=true ↗

@jayballer73 highly doubtful if this is all they have on us. The sum of money is fairly small and it would be hard for KU or even Jackson himself to have knowledge of this. The NCAA can’t expect the players parents to hand over all there bank statements and pay check stub from before the kids are even committed.

@kjayhawks Clearing house decisions before new info comes are irrelevant. Ask Cal.

When a player with Markell Fultz' ability signs with Washington red flags should be raised immediately. I don't know much about him, but I just think that's evidence that something strange went down.

Paying players would make no difference because players can still be tempted by more outside money. They should simply let players have nonexclusive contacts with agents and loans (to be reported to the NCAA) that can be disavowed if said agent doesn't get the player X amount upon leaving school or within a year, say. And pass an actual law providing for criminal penalties for anyone seeking to induce a player or family member to sign a nonreported contract.

Open contracting like that will run the shady characters out quickly.

@wissox or when a players parent is "running their recruitment" all it means to me is that they are taking payments and the highest bidder is where they end up.

That is what worries me about JJ the most. I just hope we don't hear of a Kansas coach being involved. We can't help that we are such a good program that people pay players to come here.

Of course, that is probably a bit of an ignorant thought on my end. It will all come down to the levels of deniability. I just hope we don't hear about Self going to dinner with agents.

@mayjay great ideas. That is exactly what they need to do. Find a way to create transparency and crush anyone who does things behind closed doors.

mayjay said:

Paying players would make no difference because players can still be tempted by more outside money. They should simply let players have nonexclusive contacts with agents and loans (to be reported to the NCAA) that can be disavowed if said agent doesn't get the player X amount upon leaving school or within a year, say. And pass an actual law providing for criminal penalties for anyone seeking to induce a player or family member to sign a nonreported contract.

Open contracting like that will run the shady characters out quickly.

Pretty great idea.

@Kcmatt7 It perhaps could work even better if they guaranteed NCAA immunity to any player who reported shady inducements. Use the players as confid sources rather than punishing them if they self report going to dinner with a crook who paid for it.

I'd much rather have the chance to catch the illegal hunter than simply making sure no one gets his target.

@BShark That Deadspin Article is exactly how I feel about this. FBI is trying to shake more things out.

I think the NCAA is more in damage control mode than they are attack mode lol.

Someone in that office is running around "WHO TIPPED THE FBI OFF?! Son of B. Sht Sht Sh*t. How are we going to spin this? How are we going to fix this?"

There is no way the NCAA wanted the FBI to do this. This puts way too much pressure on the NCAA to investigate 100 programs and dole out fair punishments to all of them without pissing off one school because they got a harsher penalty than another. It'll be 10 years before they get to the bottom of all of this too more than likely.

A couple of interesting items. Did anyone notice the headers on the spreadsheet are in what I would call Spanglish or a combination of English and Spanish and one of the headers indicates “Cambios de los Accountants” which in correct Spanish would be “Cambios de los Contadores” and “Presentado en Espana” or “Presented in Spain”? This typically happens when someone in a Spanish speaking country uses software written in a English. Could this be loans originated in Spain for players playing in Europe?

More importantly, if schools were not aware of these monies changing hands, can they be held legally responsible/liable? Seems like an extreme reach to me.

Now, the NCAA is a different beast and it can directly benefit from fines it can issue to big programs for whom a few million would not be much of a hardship. I see a big ammnesty coming to programs that were not blatantly involved. If this does not happen, I can see a s enario where the 5 big conferences leave the NCAA and start a new and more college friendly sports association.

Maybe this is what it takes to spur the NBA to ditch the OAD and adopt the baseball model.

Paying students that already receive free tuition, room and board and access to the best coaches, trainers and facilities and national exposure, for academic performance is silly. It would grossly discriminate against the rest of students that not only don’t get these benefits but have to pay for the privilege and patiently wait until graduation to collect the benefits of the education. I guess this makes me old school...:smile:

@mayjay Something like that might work. They need to change the culture before they change anything else.

@JayHawkFanToo The free market indicates they are worth more than that. We need to just eliminate OAD. Let the top players that want to get paid go get paid immediately.

@JayHawkFanToo Loans more likely to have originated in places like Colombia or Mexico or even Russia. Huge caches of cash (couldn't resist) tend to flow along the same paths as other untraceable commodities, and seem to implicate organized crime involvement.

Gad, I hope there isn't any gambling investigation going on simultaneously!

They should just cancel the entire season today. All records to date stand. KU 14 straight conference championships!

@mayjay

We are talking about piddly amounts of money. Yes, the multimillion operations operate that way but we are talking about low 4 figure payments here.

@BShark

Except colleges are not or should not be places where athletes go to sell their wares to the highest bidder. Colleges are and should be places where individuals go to get an education first and foremost. Like I said, I am old fashioned this way.

JayHawkFanToo said:

@mayjay

We are talking about piddly amounts of money. Yes, the multimillion operations operate that way but we are talking about low 4 figure payments here.

That you know of, in one sport. And in that particular sport, don't you think organized crime, trying to take over gambling in the most heavily bet 3 week period of the year, as well as all these NBA players with all their games, would drool at the chance to get leverage over the players any way possible?

Aside: Can't wait for the shareholder actions if the big corps get in stock-tumbling trouble.

As I think on this more, that might be the NCAA's out: investigate whether this affected the integrity of the games, and if not then announce new rules following a big, "Whew!"

@JayHawkFanToo This effects the NBA exactly 0 amount. The only thing that would make them adopt the baseball model is on court performance, player development (or lack there of), and ROI.

Why would the NBA change the rule because of this?

Now, I'm not in favor of paying players, but only because then we would have to pay all NCAA athletes. And that makes no sense to me. And I think it would bankrupt athletics departments all over the country.

However, I am in favor of creating a private organization that licenses out the names of universities, "rents" their facilities and pays players. The players would also have the option of applying the funds they receive to a reduced tuition rate at that school instead of receiving their entire salary in cash.

@Kcmatt7

In that case why even pretend it is a college team? Let’s just call it what it would be, a school sponsored professional team.

Maybe I'm misreading the big picture... but to me, the implication in all of this is that the NCAA has more responsibility than they can govern, rules that they are ineffective at enforcing consistently, and are therefore a feckless institution.

At first glance this is bad for CBB; but with a deeper look, I think our gaze has to be fixed on the NCAA.

@BShark maybe that 2700 was tied to MSU

Crimsonorblue22 said:

@BShark maybe that 2700 was tied to MSU

The loan advance was given to her allegedly about a week after he visited KU. Jackson visited KU officially in late January. He visited Michigan St the first week of March. Visited Arizona in December 2015.

One thing is apparent, at least on these payments. They do not appear to have been done with the intention of swaying prospects to specific programs but to specific agents/agencies instead, after their college careers are over.

@BeddieKU23 so, what do u think?

Crimsonorblue22 said:

@BeddieKU23 so, what do u think?

I don't think the advance has anything to do with the schools. I just wanted to provide the info about when Josh made his 3 official visits in case that came up.

I do think the agents were after his mom to secure him for the future.

Imagine how many other sports agency firms out there have similar spreadsheets that weren't caught...

@JayHawkFanToo Why are we pretending it isn't that right now? You have even been one of the people saying that they think these charges are a stretch. If they don't stick, what is going to keep players from taking the biggest paydays they possibly can from here on out?

Why do you want to continue to force athletes to go to school when that only brings down that academic standards that colleges are supposed to uphold?

Professional sports are using colleges. Colleges should turn the table and use the platform they have established, and are forced to have by profiting from it as much as possible.

How many many of these cases wouldn’t have happened if the stupid OAD rule wasn’t in place. You’re asking kids that think they are just there for a pit stop to play by the same rules that don’t care as much about the school or what happens when they leave.

@Buster-1926 Could be.

Maybe you are on to something though.

Conspiracy theory: FBI could be attempting to overthrow the NCAA and NCAA is too dumb to realize it is happening. Make the NCAA look like idiots and the bad guy. This forces schools to quit hiding their athletics department under the umbrella of a nonprofit and turns them into private organizations is potentially billions in tax revenue per year. Not to mention the double-taxation of athletes being paid in the light of day instead of behind closed doors.

Genius if this is what is actually going on.

@Buster-1926 The incompetence at the NCAA makes the Feds look like geniuses...

Kcmatt7 said:

They need to make it an environment that players and parents don't feel like they need to go to agents to get extra cash. I'm not sure exactly how to do that, but there are brighter minds than me that could help to solve the problem.

You realize the NFL is in the same tax category as the NCAA. If they were going to go after anyone in this category it be the NFL. CRAZY $$$$ there. Of course the NCAA may be easier to nab.

I know we are worried about the possible implications for KU in all this. So far we know of two former players linked to the report.

But imagine being Kentucky, Michigan St, Alabama, Duke with current players listed. What do they do.. Do they sit them in fear or play them. I'm sure each school is furiously vetting the situation. We are talking the leading scorers for Michigan St, Kentucky & Alabama & one of Duke's starters.

This will be interesting to see if all are held out because they are all now aware of what they might not have been aware of before...

@BigBad NFL gave up tax-exempt status. And the feds are still getting player income tax and the individual teams income. They do not get taxes from individual schools or the scholarships students are paid in from colleges. Which is a much bigger pie than anything else out there right now. Think about ten thousand kids. Think 100 athletic programs making tens of millions in profit.

The FBI wouldn't be going after the NCAA's money. They would be going after individual schools athletic programs money. Money that could be touched if they became 100% private, non-sheltered entities.

@Kcmatt7

I am all for doing way with the OAD rule. I am in favor that if a college is going to spend a ton of money on a player, it should have some assurances he will stick around for at least 3 years.

Also, if colleges are the victims, it should be a civil and not a criminal matter.

It is interesting the big picture here, isn't it? It does lead back to the prosecutors' motives.

Kurtis Townsend was the coach that recruited JJ. So if there is a coach involved, he'd likely be the guy. Big, big "IF".

If it becomes a non-profit/tax investigation, they could recover just a couple of years at most. I have no doubt Congress would immediately create all the exemptions necessary to protect the schools and ncaa in future years.

I think the FBI has no reason to try to upset the ncaa apple cart or get rid of it. They like it when big unwieldy organizations get all dysfunctional, and get to take advantage of the investigating private organizatons can do not hampered by DOJ rules.

@JayHawkFanToo The NCAA has zero to do with the OAD rule.

You are proposing a solution that the NCAA is not in control of. The FBI is not in control of. Only the NBA. And the NBA, because of that rule, gets a free developmental league. So why would they give that up?

@HighEliteMajor I said before, Townsend is the guy that recruited damn near any sketchy player the entire time under Self. And I think that is on purpose. Either he is the fall guy or he is trusted enough by Self to not do something stupid.

@Kcmatt7 Isn't he the one who tried to recruit the porn star?

@mayjay lol wut?

@Kcmatt7

http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2010/mar/04/townsend-explains-ticket-situation/ ↗

Wonder what Self will have to say of the matter or if he would even address it at this point.

kjayhawks said:

Wonder what Self will have to say of the matter or if he would even address it at this point.

He did not comment on it today when asked

Potential future headline: With all top teams suspended, 2018 National Championship is Rhode Island vs Loyola Chicago.

@Kcmatt7

There is public pressure building. It is possible that the NBA could be sued and forced to give up the OAD as it amounts to restriction of trade. If they claim players are not ready for the NBA after HS. there is ample precedent to counter that argument and the court would tell them...if you don't think a players is ready for your team, then don't select him.

I can see lots of big changes in college basketball as a result of this investigation and we might be seeing the last of the NCAA and college basketball as we know it.

Forget the sums of money.

Where did Kansas officials participate in this? We are comparing apples and oranges compared to the first round of busts, where coaching assistants participated in the crimes.

I've only read a little today... but from what I read, Kansas isn't guilty of anything and is as much a victim as anything else.

We've all been worried about Billy's situation this year. From what I know so far, Billy's situation shows just how responsible Kansas is when a problem comes up.

Perhaps the Billy situation will become a huge PLUS for us as this progresses.

@drgnslayr And Cliff. And Diallo.

@drgnslayr apples.

@Kcmatt7

Apparently Alexander did not get money or mom spent it very quickly and had to go get loan after Cliff was already playing at KU. :smiley:

@Crimsonorblue22

Haven't got that far. Not sure I will until tonight, when I free up more time.

KU is the only team that was willing to keep players out with any smoke. How in the hell can KU even be mentioned after the players we have sat out each season. This is a joke. It's a witch hunt and the so-called list is simply a way to show that all major programs were investigated. It does NOT surprise me at all that KU was in fact investigated, makes absolute perfect sense. So it appears that past players that graduated received money? Unless they can name recruiting violations and that KU knowingly allowed a player to play, this shouldn't be a problem.

All the blue bloods were investigated, but only investigated, or audited. Let's see if they find something in the mess KU's compliance dept already investigated. Why do you all think Billy P never played? There was smoke and we never played him. They have jack on KU. Pat Forde is an idiot because he actually defeated his own theory by naming all the players that were mentioned. They were all investigated and the NCAA even cleared them, IF they played.

Also, if KU was HOT, they would've dropped the hammer already.

@Crimsonorblue22 oranges.

@truehawk93

It is Pat Forde drawing the inferences, what can you expect?

@drgnslayr Isn't the issue that any player that accepted money is potentially ineligible and thus what to do about wins during the season that player participated?

@Crimsonorblue22 @KUSTEVE

Apples (Jones)

I guarantee you if this is as bad as it appears, the NCAA will handle this diplomatically for the sake of the game. This is long overdue, but it appears the OTHER programs had current and just recent players on the list, ie. dook, uk, usc, unc, ncst, scarolina, wsu (Marcia)?....

It seems some KU board rats are slightly intrigued by the possibility of KU being 'indicted.' I wonder why Wiggins has been SO SO SO quiet. I don't hear much from him. Also we recruited and signed our current or incoming class the old fashioned way. It seems we earned them. I think we are seeing a little more clearly why Billy P and his mom made their choice. I have a bad feeling she accepted money and that car had something to do with it. But thankfully he never played and violated any rules.

Has KU dodged the proverbial bullet?

@JayHawkFanToo Maybe this will finally get the pros out of the college game. The system as is ...is a joke. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if every top player wasn't given major bucks from Big Shoe under the table.

@truehawk93 Self knew the risks when Billy was signed and once things were uncovered there was no way he was going to risk playing Preston in the current climate. That's my read on it anyway.

Duke saying no eligibility concerns with Wendell Carter. Lolz. I almost want them to win it all now just to vacate it later.

Kcmatt7 said:

Duke saying no eligibility concerns with Wendell Carter. Lolz. I almost want them to win it all now just to vacate it later.

rofl

I'm glad this is coming out in large clumps. This will surely change the leverage of this situation between schools and the NCAA. If this was just us, we'd get shackled on anything.

@BShark

I was under the impression that Preston's problems were more academic and he had cleared them at his last HS. Once he was cleared by the NCAA there was no reason to think there was anything else. Had Coach Self thought there were other issues he would have not pursued him...that is my take.

@BShark I have seen this comment a lot about Self "knowing the risks" in signing Billy. I know about the several schools issue and the risk of ineligibility there, but did I miss something somewhere where there were hints of impermissible benefits?

Of what risks, pray tell, dost thou speak?

@mayjay The risk he might not play a game when we signed him. There is a reason that despite his talent the other big boys were not involved.

Also something else to remember with Apples Jones, she ran an AAU program so that money could have been for just about anything. Probably Josh but who knows.

Edit

@BShark If I'm not mistaken, JJ hadn't yet committed to KU when she took the money, right?

@JayHawkFanToo Preston had the stink of desperation after the Ayton miss. Probably wouldn't have touched him with a 10 foot poll otherwise. And forced him into an early commitment so they could actually see what the hell they were dealing with academically and get him eligible. They did the academic part, but always knew he was a risk. Part of the reason I think the compliance department even looked into the car was because they knew they needed to be extra careful with BP.

@BShark I think knowing the risks of speeding, that you might crash, are different from knowing the risks of an asteroid hitting your car, even though both involve the risk of not reaching your destination.

In this case, HCBS and staff had a chance to investigate and predict the risk of a bad result of the academic issue. There was also precedent from other kids. That is entirely different from anticipating losing a player out of the blue due to his or his relatives' financial shenanigans.

KUSTEVE said:

@BShark If I'm not mistaken, JJ hadn't yet committed to KU when she took the money, right?

Correct.

@CRH107 that's what I meant

@BShark And our coaching staff weren't in charge of the disbursement of said funds, right?

@JayHawkFanToo @mayjay All I'm saying is that like Cliff and Diallo there was a ton of smoke around Preston. Whatever the type may be (academic with Diallo, shady stuff with Cliff). Self would have to be really bad at his job (he isn't, btw) to not have a general idea. Then Preston gets to campus, the whole FBI thing leaks. At this point you know the staff is looking extra hard into all players on the team to make damn sure they are eligible. Then Preston gets a suspension for something as small as a curfew violation? I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday. :D

@KUSTEVE Right. It came from an agent. KU isn't tied to it.

@Kcmatt7

And according to Izzo, “While we will cooperate with any and all investigations,” Izzo said, “we have no reason to believe that I, any member of our staff or student-athlete did anything in violation of NCAA rules.”

And meanwhile, Self's response, “I haven't had a chance to study it yet,” Self said of the story. “At this point in time I reserve comment."

https://scout.com/college/kansas/Article/Tony-Bradleys-Father-Responds-to-Yahoo-Sports-Report--115460859 ↗

@Crimsonorblue22

Just teasing with you...because you posted apples and @KUSTEVE posted oranges. I know, I should take this far more seriously.

@CRH107

I've had a nice bowel movement today.... so no puckering with me!

LMAO

@BShark So, what's the big dealio? Sounds like Pat "Mizery" Ford is simply muckraking. Just wait until it comes out what Mizery did to get those 5 star recruits to go to Meth U. I mean, they had to be paid to go to that cesspool, imho.

🐦 View Tweet/photo/1

At least all the news today has made the day go by quickly.

Just still laughing that the "bomb" Yahoo was supposed to drop that could "take down programs and HOF coaches" appears to have been more like a tiny chink in a 6 foot thick lead door.

Honestly, the only thing I've seen from this that even peaks my interest is that Izzo seems far from the boy scout he has been made out to be.

KUSTEVE said:

@BShark So, what's the big dealio? Sounds like Pat "Mizery" Ford is simply muckraking. Just wait until it comes out what Mizery did to get those 5 star recruits to go to Meth U. I mean, they had to be paid to go to that cesspool, imho.

It's not a big deal. As things currently stand I doubt KU has to vacate any wins.

Stuff will come out about Cuonzo and Porter Jr. Bet on it. Cuonzo was dirty has his previous two stops, so why would he quit that at Mizoorah?

@BShark That twitter account is fire today. Holy hell im laughing out loud at work right now and don't even care.

🐦 View Tweet

this one had me crying.

@Kcmatt7 one of my favorite follows

@KUSTEVE And now we go for a live look-in to COLUMBIA MISSOURI.

!alt text ↗

Jeff Goodman‏Verified account
@GoodmanESPN
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Josh Jackson's mother, Apples Jones, told ESPN she never received any money from Andy Miller or Christian Dawkins. "I have never met Andy Miller, and while we had a relationship with Christian, we never took anything from him."

I'm just imagining the freaking Yahoo! editor and writers thinking they have this bombshell, and now the response across the country is mainly just people laughing at them lol.

@HighEliteMajor I am thinking about your comments about the weaknesses in the federal case.

Most fraud conspiracies involve a group of people trying to take someone else's money. Maybe the prosecutors will try to prove a criminal conspiracy to give away money. And, you know something? It is a concept so downright unAmerican it should be illegal.

So I read a little further and they found Apple Jones, JJ's mom, took a whopping $2,700. This was due to the car damage incident as a result of the little trouble maker and her daddy that went after Vick and Josh. Wow...This was all known, and Josh did some sitting if I remember correctly. Also, I thought there was a payback of that money. I wish they would dig deeper rather than going on what is already known.

This is getting ludicrous and ridiculous all at the same, and laughable.

@BShark Columbia, Misery is all that is in Misery.

@BShark

That's a kick azz shredder. Where can I get one.

Let’s remember, this is about one agent. I doubt it’s contained to one agent.

The really sad reality is these vultures circle these players and their families, knowing they need money.

haha...Roy says he 'ain't' worried at all. Dook says nothing here.

Then KU has NOTHING.

Oh...Hey Coach K, what happened to Bagley. Naw, no impermissible issues at Dook, smh.

@truehawk93 I thought she took the money on February 16th 2016. He didn't sign to be a Jayhawk until April 2016.

In honor of Apple Jones, I am starting Josh Jackson tonight in my Draft Kings lineup. Hopefully, JJ can get me the cash like his mom did.

Before he signed

Here's what should be done.

Who had violations?

What were the extents of those violations?

How old were the violations?

Were the violations discovered and reported by the respected programs?

Also, how many players and over what amount of time should be reviewed in the investigations? Was it directly related to a program? Before signing? Or after they left the program?

What amounts were accepted? Unfortunately if it was over $200, it's a violation.

I don't understand why the FBI doesn't take it up with these greedy azz agents only. But like Pitino, I find it hard to believe these head coaches don't know about these issues. I think the majority DO.

I am surprised that Izzo failed to catch Bridges, but I don't want my objectivity clouded by my 'respect' for him as a coach. But if this is the only recruit, with Izzo, I could see some type of allowance.

Mark Emmert ordered this investigation, it wouldn't surprise me if the NCAA says, thank you and turns a blind eye. I think this was an objective exercise for the NCAA. I do believe the coaches involved and the agents should be charged with criminal activity.

Don't punish the kids.

Does anyone think that would vacate the 2017 season if this is proven true?

@kjayhawks no

kjayhawks said:

Does anyone think that would vacate the 2017 season if this is proven true?

No, I find it extremely unlikely

Texas holding out Eric Davis. Only team that seems to not be denying it. Shaka earned a few points with me today...

Is the streak in jeopardy?

@HighEliteMajor nah

@HighEliteMajor no more than Woodens should be...

@HighEliteMajor

Im just plain confused as to what this all means for KU. For one thing I have zero doubts about Bill Self's integrity and ethics. I have a very hard time believing he did or would do anything that would compromise that and risk KU's reputation.

For another thing, I saw Josh Jacksons name on that list as well as Elijah Johnson's.

Again, no clue what this means or what will happen.
But this sucks donkey balls. What the hell??

I swear I saw something that says Elijah Johnson , 15k loan a couple days after he left KU. Am I crazy?? Did anyone else see that?

🐦 View Tweet

I think this presents a Clear and Present Danger to NCAA basketball...this just about sums it up...

Apple Jones claims the the rumors are false, http://www2.kusports.com/news/2018/feb/23/josh-jacksons-mother-apples-jones-denies-accepting/ ↗ , the next deal becomes what can they prove any of stuff happened? If a guy just gives you names of people he has given money to, if even true he’d have to have a paper trail.

@kjayhawks She doesn't sound like a person that would get within 100 miles of any sordid business. She appears to me to be too smart for that- she certainly is no dummy. And if she is right, then what is trying to be accomplished by trying to smear her, and KU?

Worst case for KU will likely be some combination of probation and a loss of a scholarship. If more comes out, that could change, but for $2700, there won't be anything major with KU.

@Texas-Hawk-10 I knew Arizona cheated to get Ayton away from us!!! Miller is rotten.

@Big-Clyde52 they are so screwed lol

Sean Miller supposedly caught on wire tap talking about $100,000 payment to land Deandre Ayton.

@Buster-1926 The bigger fish is Miller at Arizona!!! 100K worth of fish to get Ayton.

No wonder he sweats so much! I bet he paid ole tarz. too. Didn't get his money's worth on him.

Is there a difference between a family member getting money compared to a player?

HighEliteMajor said:

Sean Miller supposedly caught on wire tap talking about $100,000 payment to land Deandre Ayton.

If it's on tape, Miller is screwed.

Report: FBI Wiretaps Show Sean Miller Discussed $100k Payment for Ayton's Commitment

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/ncaabk/report-fbi-wiretaps-show-sean-miller-discussed-dollar100k-payment-for-aytons-commitment/ar-BBJvZNA?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp ↗

Sean Miller is a tool. No wonder we missed on Ayton. We didn't offer him $100,000. This is absolutely unacceptable. This is the type of crap that needs the death penalty, loss of scholarships, and loss of coaching position.

Kinda like Preston's car, if it was legitimate then there should be easily traceable documentation -- same with these 'loans'. Apples Jones' denials seem credible enough to me. I am going to withhold judgment until there is more evidence than just names and dollar amounts on a spreadsheet.

@mayjay Let players fabricate what they will. The truth will come out in an investigation. You can't make this crap up on the fly. This is a nasty mess. As a bball fan, I'm saddened.

I have a problem keeping a straight face when I read Yahoo and Federal documents in the same sentence. Seriously, when did Yahoo become a credible legal watch dog?

Speaking of the tourney. Can you imagine what tv sponsors are doing right now?

@truehawk93 FBI apparently chose them to be the ones who they trust to release the info

Why doesn't Yahoo find out about Bagley. He's like Waldo. Where is Marvin Bagley? Inquiring minds want to know. Now all we need is the National Enquirer and Jerry Springer interviewing the agents, with the coaches. We'd have an all out knock down drag out show.

How about BAD BOYS OF THE NCAA..."Bad boys, bad boys...whatcha gonna do when they come for you, bad boys bad boys..."

(

We know what Sean Miller does when they come for him after offering players $100,000 to play for Zona.

(

Does anyone know who our announcers are tomorrow? Going to be ugly all basketball day long having to listen to the 'talking heads' about this debacle.

@truehawk93 I missed your post.

@CRH107

Yeah, we need to get focused on the game. I'm sure they will make this mess a point of interest at some point during interviews. I hope if Holly Rowe is on the floor, she refrains from asking Self any questions about this crap.

Self has commented all he knows and frankly, nothing on KU at this time. If the whole Apples $2700 thing is all they've got, it's moot.

Gonna have to have a special tournament this year. The on probation tournament.

I've been waiting for the Ayton news since the first second he said he was going to AZ. I knew there was money involved.

@HawkChamp

BIG TIME, MAJORLY SCREWED...He can't sweat his way out of this coaches box.

@wissox Maybe they'll issue ankle monitors?

@KUSTEVE

It sounds like they made up the emails in question. It sounds like she didn't play their game. Now, these emails are simply emails. I'd like to see if they have anything with her responding, or accepting any offers from the agent or even Adidas.

They claimed to advance $1700 before JJ signed with KU. But I never saw a balance of $1000 for the alleged $2700. They even mentioned in their emails that she was working the AAU and that some other figure was involved. But that Adidas was "taking good care of her." She denies having anything to do with Adidas.

She denies even knowing the agent making the claims. She does know Christian from the AAU circuit, but did nothing with them. This sounds like a dead end and unless they can prove Apples accepted anything, check or money order, draft; They don't have squat. She knows that world and doubt she would jeopardize her son's career.

Bleacher Report is saying Jackson’s mom was getting significant amounts of money from UA and Adidas.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2761242-fbi-probe-uncovers-asm-agency-emails-detailing-communication-about-top-recruits ↗

About 2/3 of the way down.

Thoughts?

Gorilla72 said:

Bleacher Report is saying Jackson’s mom was getting significant amounts of money from UA and Adidas.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2761242-fbi-probe-uncovers-asm-agency-emails-detailing-communication-about-top-recruits ↗

About 2/3 of the down.

Thoughts?

I think these 'agents' are a bunch of aspiring wanna bees that sent out emails to look good. They threw around JJ's name and even his mom, but she accepted nothing from the agents, nor did she claim anything with Adidas. As some have said, she works the AAU circuit and was the mother of a top recruit. She didn't play their game, but their 'emails' are empty. They went no where. Unless they can produce some proof of payment, she didn't accept squat.

@truehawk93 , I believe this was from a wiretap, if I read it correctly - not an email...

@truehawk93 That's the problem in crap like this. The players who take the money receive no punishment really. They'll leave the school and sign pro deals and make a lot. Sure they cost themselves the rest of their season and maybe a chance at the dance, but they're the ones who hurt everyone else by taking the money in the first place. Really pretty sick deal for all of the innocent players and even for the fans of those teams.

@Gorilla72 not a wiretap

http://www2.kusports.com/news/2018/feb/23/josh-jacksons-mother-apples-jones-denies-accepting/ ↗

@Buster-1926 The NCAA isn't the FBI. They don't have to follow innocent until proven guilty in this case. They can nail Sean Miller to the wall tomorrow if they really wanted to in this case.

I kind of feel for Miller. The only way he could pry recruits away from the blue bloods was to literally pay them 6 figures. We all knew DeAndre was coming here until Arizona came in and swooped him. Pretty sure he hadn’t even taken a visit to their campus at that point? Still the fact Miller would do that is a very interesting look into the darker side of recruiting. If Kansas isn’t involved in pay for play, which I believe Self is way too smart to ever directly involve the university or himself in such a thing, what are we involved in? And if we do come out of this thing unscathed then that’s another thing we’ve been absolutely spoiled with about Self. He won at the highest level and he did it the right way.

I bet Self knew about Miller, you think?

Trier just got suspended. I don't think Ayton ever plays another minute of college basketball, and i'll bet Stubby gets the axe sometime today. Talk about a team blowing up...wow!

So we now know why DeAndre all of a sudden committed to Arizona. - - I couldn't figure that out for the life of me when he announced he was going to Arizona. - -All through his recruitment all I had been hearing looked like KU was a lock and then announcement day - -BAM Arizona - I myself hadn't really heard Anything on Arizona until then.

I could see this whole scenario playing out ol sweaty stumpy saying geez DeAndre - -tell ya what - if you commit to us - -I'll - - - I'll - - I'll - I'll pay ya 100,000 will you just please come to Arizona - fans are on my ass - -100,000 DeAndre please. - DeAndre says hold up Coach.- calls Bill says Coach I have an offer of 100,000 what ya got for me? - -Bill says I have a Schlorship DeAndre that's what I have. - -DeAndre says -- - DAMM Coach - calls Stumpy back and says ok I'll come - but dam can we get you todo something about your sweating so dam much lol?

This whole thing is just starting to break - I think it's really gonna get ugly before it's all said and done. - - NCAA is screwed - how they gonna enforce all of this on all these programs - -lots of blue bloods plus others - if they play this out and try to penalize everyone that's possible guilty of something - -there won't be any teams to play NCAA tourney.

Miller is screwed - Big time - -I did read that he could still walk away even if Arizona fires him for cause he can still walk away from there with 10.3 million from the remaining on his contract - the article says most would walk away with zero. - It did say he would have to pay the school back like 300,000 dollars but compared to 10 million? -I think actually he needs to be put on administrative suspension until they find out for sure on him - -kind of like Patino - -Ayton should be made to sit for sure immediately - Trier is out - Arizona is in one big pile of dog doo. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

KUSTEVE said:

Trier just got suspended. I don't think Ayton ever plays another minute of college basketball, and i'll bet Stubby gets the axe sometime today. Talk about a team blowing up...wow!

I'm with you 100% buddy. - -I think Ayton should be forced to sit immediately - -and if Arizona Admin has any intelligence at all one tiny bit - then they suspend Miller now put on administrative suspension at least till this gets cleared up - -Miller is screwed. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@jayballer73 Here's another brain tickler that has me very puzzled...if they knew that Sweaty stubby had offered a huge bribe...A) why did they wait so long to drop the hammer...and B ) how is Ayton been able to play practically the whole season???

KUSTEVE said:

@jayballer73 Here's another brain tickler that has me very puzzled...if they knew that Sweaty stubby had offered a huge bribe...A) why did they wait so long to drop the hammer...and B ) how is Ayton been able to play practically the whole season???

I hear ya - -very good question - - things about to get really crazy. - -I mean JUMPIN -- GEE - -HOSSIE TOADS - -some things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmm. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@jayballer73 Here's another one...Tarc was a total KU lean, and in one visit to AZ, he dumps us like Chris Beard did Vegas. How much was Tarc paid?

Another thing is - -Ol stumpy may very well have criminal charges if this is proven they talking about if they find out money was actually exchanged. -- In the wire tap the agent asked Miller if he wanted him to deal with one of the assistants Miller said NO when it comes to money deal with me.

But they said if money actually exchanged hands across state lines then we dealing with Innerstate Commerce - as we know Book Richardson is facing up to 60 yrs in prison.

Stumpy - - - - HANG ON TO YOUR SOAP BUDDY - - -DON'T DROP THE SOAP. - - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

Sean Miller, you are donzo! Completely complicit wow.

Haven't heard Coach Self's name come up, so I'm good!

No, I don't feel sorry for Sean Miller. Anyone so foolish to discuss 100,000 dollars for a recruit deserves all the repercussions from it. It does make me wonder as a B1G fan if his brother would/has done the same thing at Indiana. If I feel sorry for anyone it's the Zona player and fan who were in the dark about this and now their season is down the tubes and they're left to wonder what they did to deserve this.

@wissox Ayton told KU he was coming here. Days before he committed to AZ. Sean Miller can suck eggs.

wissox said:

No, I don't feel sorry for Sean Miller. Anyone so foolish to discuss 100,000 dollars for a recruit deserves all the repercussions from it. It does make me wonder as a B1G fan if his brother would/has done the same thing at Indiana. If I feel sorry for anyone it's the Zona player and fan who were in the dark about this and now their season is down the tubes and they're left to wonder what they did to deserve this.

I don't think Archie is in the same situation yet. Sean was under a huge amount of pressure to deliver at least a final four. He was underachieving.

wissox said:

No, I don't feel sorry for Sean Miller. Anyone so foolish to discuss 100,000 dollars for a recruit deserves all the repercussions from it. It does make me wonder as a B1G fan if his brother would/has done the same thing at Indiana. If I feel sorry for anyone it's the Zona player and fan who were in the dark about this and now their season is down the tubes and they're left to wonder what they did to deserve this.

There you go. I feel sorry for my grandparents, they live near Tucson and are Arizona fans. I don’t feel sorry for Stumpy or any of the players that took money. The clean players in his program are getting screwed too.

ESPN's Mark Schlabach mentions on SportsCenter that Arizona told him that the program is standing by Sean Miller's statement in October claiming his innocence. - per UA message site.

LOL

Steve "Chief" Burt
@Chiefzona1472
Why didn’t Miller pay 100 grand for a point guard??? Freakin idiot. 😂
07:19 - 24 Feb 2018 · Tucson, AZ

24

See Steve "Chief" Burt's other Tweets

BUT WAIT .....THERE'S MORE....

http://www.wildcat.arizona.edu/article/2018/02/former-ua-assistants-book-richardson-and-joe-pasternack-work-agents-for-recruits ↗ ↗

Zona just needs to forfeit the rest of the season lol.

Lonzo Ball on today’s Yahoo! report: “Everybody knows everybody’s getting paid. That’s how it is. If everybody’s getting paid anyway might as well make it legal.”
1:41 PM - Feb 23, 2018

How pervasive is this really?!? We tend to gravitate to the "one lone gunman" theory in our country so we can get closure and move on quickly. Is Miller a loner or just the 'scapegoat'? Hard to believe his contract would pay out a 'for cause' termination if others were not complicit. Hard to believe he would discuss matters over phone wires unless he felt secure in his dealings -- phones are typically for ordinary/routine business negotiations. I would have preferred that he was caught conducting a clandestine meeting under a bridge in the dark of night.

I've got it on good authority that Stumpy Miller is not going to replace Self at KU when Self retires.

@CRH107 the ones who get caught are always the ones that get comfortable and lazy. Just like any Ponzi scheme, Enron, or any other major fraud case. It’s because those who are covering it up normalize their actions to themselves and eventually become lazy. Clearly this is what happened to Miller.

I don't feel any kind of sorry for Miller. Like, at all. His goose is cooked man!! The feds got him on wiretap. Its a done deal. He will lose his job like Pitino did.

KU and Coach Self on the other hand? Like I said before, I have severe doubts about any wrong doing on KU's part. I hope Im right. If probation is necessary, fine. But, man I hope we don't have to vacate any titles or wins cuz of it.

KansasComet said:

Haven't heard Coach Self's name come up, so I'm good!

Exactly or assistants

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/ncaabk/shaq’s-son-hints-in-deleted-tweet-he-no-longer-wants-to-attend-arizona/ar-BBJwLPp?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp ↗

Now the fallout begins. I hope this doesn't discourage Romeo Langford against KU and uses good judgement as he finalizes/ed his choice.

The lack of anything of substance connecting KU to anything is a major positive. It also sounds like, with the denial from JJ’s mom, there would be no KU knowledge of the transaction. That is important.

If Miller and ayton coach and play I'll never speak of Arizona ever

@HighEliteMajor Agree.

Gotta believe this "loan" operation is mostly a cash business...in the absence of a verifiable paper trail it really does come down to one person's word over another. My money is on JJ's mom.

Miller will not coach, no word on ayton yet

The thing is Jones doesn't have to speak to anyone from the ncaa. Her son doesn't go to college anymore, she doesn't have to provide a paper trail to them if there is one. The fbi could, and turn that info over to the ncaa which would change things.

She allegedly received the money before her son signed anywhere. He was not under Kansas watch.

He was eligible through ncaa and ku compliance.

Until the program is connected to this there is absolutely no way they can be held accountabe

Well this completely explains his ability to almost overnight land top guys.. to Arizona -decidedly not a blue blood program.

I know they are not all expecting some sort of $, but this is why I really have soured on these OAD types...

Self is clean - we will get thru this.

It's not just oads getting paid. Loads of players anywhere near the top 100 of the rankings really.

@BShark
Good point - the question is where this would fall off.. what ranking must you have to expect some sort of under the table $ offer

Bridges will play today, the university and the NCAA have worked together for the last 24 hours and have deemed his situation not at risk potential retribution. That’s the fastest the NCAA has ever worked for a team not on the east and very interesting to say the least.

kjayhawks said:

Bridges will play today, the university and the NCAA have worked together for the last 24 hours and have deemed his situation not at risk potential retribution. That’s the fastest the NCAA has ever worked for a team not on the east and very interesting to say the least.

UK cleared Knox real quick too. :joy:

I think we will see the NCAA and Division I teams working together like never before...suddenly they have an intruder/enemy in common.

BeddieKU23 said:

Miller will not coach, no word on ayton yet

They have to bench him and at least show some type of actions against the allegations. But the damage is done, why not go ahead and play him?

BShark said:

kjayhawks said:

Bridges will play today, the university and the NCAA have worked together for the last 24 hours and have deemed his situation not at risk potential retribution. That’s the fastest the NCAA has ever worked for a team not on the east and very interesting to say the least.

UK cleared Knox real quick too. :joy:

hahahahahahahahaha...this is a joke and why this is not going to be worth the time they spent finding this mess. They can't legally let MSU and Bridges off this easily. This simply means the KU findings prove to be a joke finding. They had to throw something out against KU.

Gorilla72 said:

ESPN's Mark Schlabach mentions on SportsCenter that Arizona told him that the program is standing by Sean Miller's statement in October claiming his innocence. - per UA message site.

Audacious and arrogance, WOW

@truehawk93 I'm glad this investigation is now. Even I have my doubts with Sherron, Julian and Arthur. I do believe that Self has layers of separation anyway though. Our recent recruiting would indicate that even if Self had some suspicious things before maybe he is more on the up and up now. One can hope.

Not happy it is Arizona but in some perverse way, I am delighted that Arizona and other programs are giving Yahoo, et. al. a big 'screw you'.

CRH107 said:

Not happy it is Arizona but in some perverse way, I am delighted that Arizona and other programs are giving Yahoo, et. al. a big 'screw you'.

ohhhhhh...please remember all the recruits Zona signed at the final hour. I am very happy that his recruiting practices have been exposed.

Do you remember the bigs and pgs he took from KU?

@truehawk93

Absolutely and agree with you! Just tired of 'rolling over' every time someone points a finger or brings up an allegation. How can the NCAA possible clear someone in 24 hours when it took an eternity with Preston??

@CRH107 The legal teams at UK, MSU etc are obviously just that much better! :joy:

Miller's not coaching, but I'm confused at Emmert's latest comment. This gets more ridiculous by the article. Why would you launch a probe and then not look into or take some actions? Oh wait, it's about the money. Now we know what the F4 sponsors are doing right now.

(http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/22567552/sean-miller-coach-arizona-wildcats-saturday-oregon-ducks) ↗

@BShark

...and accomplished it after normal business hours and over a weekend...only thing that would make it more impressive is some kind of holiday I missed yesterday!

Sean Miller says he expects to be vindicated? OK.

Ayton will play

BeddieKU23 said:

Ayton will play

Joke

@Kcmatt7

Taking a McDonald All American top prospects does not strike me as having an air of desperation. I am sure glad KU did not take Ayton considering what is being reported.

How about this scenario. Agent goes to his boss and says...I just met with Mrs. Jackson and gave her $2,600 in cash, of course there is no record of our meeting or the payment because the NCAA frowns on that so, here is my expense report and the master spreadsheet has been updated. All the while Mrs. Jackson has been at home, never met the agent and has no idea who he is. Has the spreadsheet not been made public none is the wiser. Maybe what has been uncovered is a gigantic agency in-house scam

@JayHawkFanToo because Ayton is playing today and Billy is in Bosnia? Lol.

Agree to disagree because I believe you don’t know much of the subject you’re trying to speak on.

@JayHawkFanToo That was my exact thought. Dawkins is a slime. I wouldn't put it past him to pad his expense account. Make up some names to hide the money you're skimming.

Consider the source.

Always!

@KUSTEVE Thats my deal, at this point ether this paper is completely BS or a ton of schools are lying.

Good old Tucky fans

https://kentucky.forums.rivals.com/threads/bigger-name-coach-on-tape.259092/ ↗

@BShark So..........it never occurred to them it might be their very own?

@Hawk8086 Of course not.

@Hawk8086 Cal is clean. He already has two vacated final fours and would never do anything to risk that again.

It’s like girls continually getting back with their ex that cheats on them. “He’s changed! He won’t do it again, he promised.”

Not sure what to make of the Miles Bridges situation. How does an internal review and then eligibility clearance by the NCAA happen overnight on a weekend when the office is closed. Idk why but that just smells terrible.

@cragarhawk I sure don't want their tourney appearance last year vacated. BIFM vs Bridges deserves to stay in history!

KU could have just as easily played Preston, but didn't.

BShark said:

KU could have just as easily played Preston, but didn't.

Scruples. I like it.

@Kcmatt7

Every coach in the Country with an available scholarship...or without one, would have taken Preston in a NewYork minute; he is playing in Eastern Europe because of potential violations, which are yet to be determined, and not because lack of talent. As I posted, there were zero red flags on Preston other than academic. When Arizona has to vacate all the wins when Ayton played, it will look like a blessing in disguise.

So I'm watching Sparty play my Badgers today and of course Bridges is out there. He gets 10 points, 8 boards, and I'm trying to figure out why he is playing. I asked the same thing with Ayton last night.

So of course I start thinking of our own team. We had a young man we kept out and ultimately the NCAA doesn't clear to play. Assuming they had found something it was the right decision of course. But I'm thinking why are these schools playing these dudes? Are they figuring they're already caught so they might as well enjoy the ride since it's all going to fall apart when the other shoe drops and puts them on probation?

I'm proud of KU for doing things the right way, even if there is some dirt on us through this latest crap. I'm pretty upset though watching those guys play. Not sure if Duke's cheater was kept out or any of the others who are active players. But they shouldn't. It seems like such a no brainer. Why are these guys still playing basketball?

@wissox so from what I understand it’s the FBI that wiretapped him and released the findings. The NCAA has no actual proof that Ayton or Bridges received the money. The decision to sit Miller was made by the school administration and not the NCAA. If this all came to light last year i do wonder however if Self would have sat Josh. Would like to hear everyone’s take on that.

@SkinnyKansasDude I understand your point but the FBI 's word holds no weight with the NCAA? This is the FBI, they probably laugh at the NCAA's investigations. T

100,000$ and the guy plays. I don't care if it's the kid selling happy meals saying he heard it. That's a wad of cash and I can't believe that he's playing. Of course maybe they know their goose is cooked so they'll play him as a sort of 'why the heck not, we've got nothing to lose'.

Texas sidelined Eric Davis Jr.

Hmm, well from reading on some other sites. Talk is more news possibly coming before Thursday. - Talk is Michigan State & Texas is on deck.

Lot of talk that another big name - - - bigger then Miller was caught on wiretap conversation - and quite possibly Izzo.

Then talk about Texas and Bamba. - talking about how the story from his brother back sometime ago reveiling as to what he said was that he had took money for Bamba's recruitment to Texas, then family was saying he was just jealous. - Talk being said not so laughable now is it? - - Bamba? - - Money? - -Texas? - I'm not really sold solid on this stuff - but guess we will see if anything develops this week with these two schools - just passing what I read but I'm not say 100% for sure. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

San Diego St also sidelined Malik Pope.

wissox said:

@SkinnyKansasDude I understand your point but the FBI 's word holds no weight with the NCAA? This is the FBI, they probably laugh at the NCAA's investigations. T

100,000$ and the guy plays. I don't care if it's the kid selling happy meals saying he heard it. That's a wad of cash and I can't believe that he's playing. Of course maybe they know their goose is cooked so they'll play him as a sort of 'why the heck not, we've got nothing to lose'.

I was baffled as well that Ayton played. If the Arizona administration held Miller out I'm not sure why Ayton wasn't a pre-cautionary scratch as well. Other programs would have likely held him out, I have a good feeling Self would have or KU compliance would have to investigate the validity in the report.

In my opinion Arizona lost all of my respect allowing him to play. Maybe some don't share that view. Maybe we should wait to see whether Ayton received the money before placing blame on him as well. There is however some good information out there that Ayton told Self he was committing to KU and then days later commits to Arizona out of the blue. And now we have a FBI wiretap explaining an alledged deal to pay Ayton or his family to influence him to play for Arizona.

Michigan St played Bridges, Kentucky played Knox, Alabama played Sexton, Duke played Carter. All of them allegedly had dinner with Dawkins. Sexton was the only one suspended by Alabama in the beginning of the season for being named in the initial FBI report. I'm surprised the other 3 were "cleared" by their programs so quickly. We shouldn't have been surprised given these are star players and they had games to play/win the next day

BeddieKU23 said:

San Diego St also sidelined Malik Pope.

Weird.

BShark said:

BeddieKU23 said:

San Diego St also sidelined Malik Pope.

Weird.

Seemed like Texas & SD St were caught flat-footed with them being included and wanted to look into it is my guess.

This is all just setting the table for the NBA to set up its own development system outside the NCAA. This report may be the push that moves the NCAA back to amateur status (i.e., no players with pro aspirations) while the NBA moves to a more European model (i.e. each team having a developmental system).

If that happens, D1 basketball will change. It won't cease to exist, but it will certainly change. Kids with pro aspirations will start working their way through the pro development system as early as 12 or 13, going to school during the day, then training at the pro development facility at night. That's why you see guys from Europe coming over having already played three or four years within a pro system - they start that as soon as they are ready from a talent perspective, often 17 or 18. Had a guy like Svi stayed in Europe, he likely would be finishing his second or third year as a pro in a lower European league right now. That is coming to the U.S.

That type of system will allow Big Shoe to sponsor these development centers (along with the NBA and GLeague). It will also mean that top HS players probably won't go to their local high school, or even a private school or prep school - they will go to the development center probably as early as 13 or 14.

Now obviously, this is years down the road - currently, there are six or seven NBA teams pondering opening training centers. It's in the planning stages, which means its probably still three years from happening in the earliest stages. But with this issue popping up now, it may speed up the process just a bit. It's still going to take 8-10 years to get anything like this off the ground, but that's where things are headed.

@justanotherfan I just have a hard time seeing the NBA giving up a free developmental league.

It isn't like baseball where an NAIA guy can make the pros. So you don't have to cast a wide net.

Not to mention, there basically are NBA academies leading up to college. Almost all of these top 100 guys play for a prep school where they eat and breath basketball.

The dollars and cents just aren't there from what I can see. The more simple, cheaper fix is just getting rid of the OAD rule.

@Kcmatt7

Having guys stay in the NCAA longer doesn't serve a purpose for the NBA. Most college programs don't run NBA systems, so it doesn't help the NBA to have a guy play in that type of system for several years.

That's one of the issues the NFL is facing now - colleges run college schemes, while the NFL runs a completely different type of playbook offensively and defensively. That means that success in college could be the result of the system, not a player's overall talent, or a player's skillset just may not translate from college to the pros. That's at every position in football from the line to the skill guys.

The NBA is moving more and more to positionless basketball, while most college teams are still in a traditional two interior player system. Because of that, from a development standpoint, you really don't want a guy working in a system that is so much different than what he will be asked to do at the pro level, as that may stunt his professional development.

Right now, major sports networks pay tons of money to broadcast college basketball. If the talent pool shifts away from college, that money could shift as well. The money will follow the talent.

@justanotherfan I'm not saying that they should make players go to college for longer. I'm saying they need to take them right out of HS like they used to. That is the cheaper fix. That is the process that created more HOF players than the current system.

I'm not arguing with you that college doesn't prep players as well as another system might. But, I do not believe that the benefit of changing the system outweighs the cost in the eyes of the owners.

@justanotherfan I really hope what you're saying doesn't happen. I, like so many here, and on similar fan sites across the land, love our college teams and would hate to see it watered down to it only existing for the kids who don't go pro.

In that scenario, what happens to Frank Mason? He probably wouldn't have made it into the NBA minor leagues (my term) right out of HS. Does he then get branded a college player therefore not good enough? Maybe, hard to say really.

@wissox

Frank was an exceptional HS player, so he probably would have gotten into the development pipeline, albeit likely later on (as a sophomore or junior rather than at 13 or 14). The kids that don't develop in that system would still go on to college (there would likely be an avenue for them to pursue collegiate education later on).

Sports is a big business. It's only a matter of time before the business part changes the developmental stages, too.

Kcmatt7 said:

@justanotherfan I just have a hard time seeing the NBA giving up a free developmental league.

FREE? They have limited expose to the college guys so the bust factor is higher, which costs a ton. When you have all access(all practices, scrimmages, games) to prospects the bust factor lowers significantly. A dev league is WAY better for the NBA.

The one place it does hurt the NBA is marketability. When a kid is well known in college it helps NBA fans familiarity with the player.

@BigBad

...but,..the NBA already has a development League, it is called the G League.

The NBA had several big time busts when players could go directly from HS to the NBA so it changed the rules so prospects now have to go to college for one year where they are observed by teams' scouts...for free. A sweet deal for the NBA, a sweet deal for prospects and a lousy deal for colleges if you ask me.

@BigBad Free. And they instituted the OAD rule so that the bust potential was lower. Guys like Cliff would have made millions.

And, as you said, the exposure from colleges is a HUGE selling point for the NBA.

Top that off with the cost to run a developmental league. How much do you pay a 12 year old? How much do you pay a late blooming 16 year old? Blooming 18 year old? Who decides what kids go to what team? Are you putting them up in multimillion dollar condos? Are you feeding them? Paying world-class trainers hundreds of thousands to train them? Building hundred-million dollar complexes for them? Putting them in front of a crowd to develop their marketability?

There have been dozens of attempted leagues to steal away top recruits and pay them. None of them have worked because what colleges offer is still better. And Owners aren't going to spend a fortune to compete with that when, right now, it is free.

@Kcmatt7

None of them has ever worked because the big players (NBA, ShoeCos, etc) never backed any of them.

The GLeague is backed by the NBA and Gatorade. Add a pipeline backed by Nike and Adidas and you have a whole new system.

@justanotherfan and they never would because they have too much money invested in college athletics.

For all of you that thought I had lost my mind when I said I thought the Stubby Miller investigation seemed like BS...well ....here you go:

https://247sports.com/Article/Sources-Conflicting-information-in-ESPNs-report-involving-Arizona-star-DeAndre-Ayton-coach-Sean-Miller-115594868 ↗ ↗

@KUSTEVE Yep, it wasn't very well vetted apparently. Crazy.

@BShark I don't think the FBI was actually involved in this hit job. I think this was a rogue ESPN writer who inexplicably decided to tilt the AZ/ Oregon game in the Dux favor by creating as much havoc as possible. And it worked. Oregon and their sh** sandwich eating coach won. Still makes me wonder if the writer was good buddies with the boys at Nike.

@KUSTEVE Maybe it was KU to prevent JRE visiting. :thinking:

I see lawyers in the near future, lots and lots of lawyers...

!0_1519742280198_phoghistory.JPG ↗

Interesting read.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/secret-cash-isnt-an-ncaa-scandal-amateurism-is-1519665889 ↗

@BeddieKU23 No one bets on music or art. That’s why no one cares if they get paid. It’s all about betting. Same as the injury report, it has nothing to do with fairness of play, it’s all about betting.