HighEliteMajor said:
And Scott Drew continues (I think) to make great strides as a coach. An unfair whipping boy, I'd say.
Against Self, he seems to struggle.
Have no issue with him, he's really changed his style up this season with the personnel he has.
Just to keep on the optimistic train here if your a NBA scout that evaluated Doke during the spring what were the things you would have wanted to see him improve this season. Let's list a few.
Rebounding
Rim Protection
Guarding the perimeter/in space
Ability to play extended Minutes
Improved body/finish a season healthy
Shooting, extended range, FT's.
Post Game
Now 13 games in..
Rebounding- Averaging a career best 8.9 boards. In a stretch where he's averaging 11 per game.
Rim Protection- Averaging a career best 2.2 blocks per game. Just had a career best 6 blocks against WVU.
Guarding the Perimeter- Still a major weakness
Playing Extended Minutes- Averaging a career best 26.8 minutes per game.
Improved Body/staying healthy- Shed over 40 pounds coming into the season. So far so good on his health.
Shooting- Major weakness. No range, still can't shoot FT's.
Post Game- Still raw, probably the best Self has ever had at establishing position, driving his man up the paint and establishing where he wants to be to get his angles and Dunks.
Besides his obvious weaknesses of Shooting from anywhere outside 4 feet and being able to guard bigs out to the perimeter he's improved everywhere else. The guy is going to break the NCAA record for FG% in a season and in a career. Analytically I'm wondering if a team is going to be intrigued by how effective he is around the basket. He's making 87% of his shots at the rim. That's not just above average, its borderline insane. I can see him being a backup C in the league somewhere, not heavy minutes but someone that gets in here and there. The NBA is a long season and guys get chances due to injuries and what not. He's not going to magically stop dunking the ball on people in the league. Just some thoughts
This was Baylor's first road game of the season and of all the games I've seen them play this season this was probably their B- effort. They weren't great against Texas either over the weekend so I think its just where the team is right now in the flow of the season.
Tech really had a solid defensive game plan for Baylor to limit perimeter looks. The lack of a frontcourt cost them against Baylor which always seems to rebound well, they had a 19 rebound edge, and Vital/Gillespie had 23 boards themselves.
Baylor's 5 guards are as good as KU's 5 guards. Their frontcourt is not as good as our frontcourt. They have Scott Drew, we have Self. Saturday we have home court. It's imperative KU holds court on Saturday
Good point, didn't realize his buyout was that big.
Begs the question, will Cole Anthony return to that mess? Does he really have anything left to prove now that the season is headed in the tankers?
In today's age where we already saw Wiseman bail out I wonder if he follows. Note I do think Cole is cut from a different cloth then moneyman.
All kids go to West Virginia for free right?
In all seriousness wasn't there some rock solid connection between him, Konate & his HS coach?
BShark said:
BeddieKU23 said:
Grimes had one of those games, 4 points, 2-9 shooting, 0-5 from 3. Remind anyone of last year??
Bill wasn't the problem??? pikaOMG
Saw the box score and had nightmares of last year. Something tells me I can skip looking for the replay, we already know how that song and dance played out for 36 games with him
It will be interesting to see if he takes a lateral move in the Big-12. He's pulled a fast one before but something tells me if he gets a bigger gig its outside the Big-12. Just seems like the type of guy that wouldn't do that to a school.
A side note: Texas doesn't deserve a coach like him anyway. He's rejuvenated Lubbock but I don't ever see Austin caring enough about Basketball to deserve him
BShark said:
BeddieKU23 said:
Yup we did recruit Tshiebwe but West Virginia had the inside track with him from the beginning so there wasn't much we could do in that recruitment. Knowing what kind of player he was coming into College it's no surprise how he played against us in Allen. He'll be in the NBA next year.
Even Kentucky couldn't lure him away. Enough said.
I remember us conceding that recruitment up pretty early. Refreshing to see a guy stick to his connection and not be lured by the "big blue". Guy is going to be in the NBA regardless of where he played this year.
Watching the Baylor/Tech game some things stood out.
Baylor does not play zone with this group. They have 5 guards that can play with anyone. Vital rebounds (he's a pest), Clark is still not 100% and Gillespie is a glue blue collar guy out there. Tough team to play against.
Tech is super small, don't have a player over 6'7 in the lineup. Holyfield and Clarke are really stretch bigs that can handle it especially Clarke who's really a PG out there and their best passer. Ramsey is their best player, sort of in the Jarrett Culver mold. Can't imagine he sticks around for year two the way he's playing.
We're about to find out how good our 4 guard lineup can really be facing these two clubs. Both these clubs will go 5 out at times on offensive sets which we all know is KU's Achilles heal
Both defend at a high level. Tech defends the 3 point line like their life depends on it @HighEliteMajor.
Another defensive principle that you usually don't see. Tech won't trap the post entry but they will bait you to go over your right shoulder and bring a secondary defender over to either block the shot, foul, take a charge or double team the player going up for a shot. I saw this numerous times where Baylor didn't recognize or didn't run a guard or player cutting to the hoop for an easy basket. Tech figured the player wouldn't be savvy enough to pass it and it was effective defensive tactic. Beard is a dude
Grimes had one of those games, 4 points, 2-9 shooting, 0-5 from 3. Remind anyone of last year??
Huge game for sure
Anything is possible. I think he'd go down as one of the best if he did stay all 4 years. He'd have a chance at the top 5 in points scored and numerous awards that would get his name in the rafters. It's fun to dream what could be.
jayballer73 said:
BeddieKU23 said:
BShark said:
SR Dotson would likely be the single greatest guard season under Bill. We haven't seen a trajectory like this at KU under Bill that I can recall. Outside of three point percentage his numbers aren't that far off of SR Frank. Guessing some people don't want to see it to hold out hope for him staying.
That's saying a lot given the Sr year Mason had but its certainly possible given how advanced his role is compared to where Frank/Devonte were at this time. If he really did elevate his jump shot and play-making to the next level there's no reason to think he wouldn't be a rockstar. Given how much Frank/Devonte improved Jr/Sr year under this staff its not out of the question.
Imagine Jr Dotson, Sr Garrett, Jr Agbaji, Soph Braun, Jr McCormack in the starting 5.. WoW
How could we keep Bryce out of that lineup? - -I think he will be a starter from day one
Probably starts because its unlikely that 5 I listed above will be reality but he would make a great 6th man
Again a basket negated for home town referees
Good game between baylor and Tech. The refs as always though are making it hard to enjoy. Baylor just had a layup negated on a charge that should never be called in the game. Just further promotes camping in the lane and jacking up 3s
BShark said:
My desire to watch non-ku games is close to zero this year. Maryland tOSU might be fun.
Feel the same way but I've been trying to slug through some games for tourney time. Duke/Miami was hard to watch the other night. Gonzaga couldn't defend my grandma. Florida St/Louisville was interesting. Kentucky isn't fun to watch (not that they were anyway). Watched ISU lose in OT to TCU just to catch up on why the cryclones want Prohm gone. Saw the Baylor/Texas and Shaka still can't coach. Fran was laying into him.
Baylor also going on the road for the first time. Tech just blew out Ok Lite by 35 but that doesn't hold as much water after seeing Huggy Bear win by double digits in Stillwater as well.
BShark said:
SR Dotson would likely be the single greatest guard season under Bill. We haven't seen a trajectory like this at KU under Bill that I can recall. Outside of three point percentage his numbers aren't that far off of SR Frank. Guessing some people don't want to see it to hold out hope for him staying.
That's saying a lot given the Sr year Mason had but its certainly possible given how advanced his role is compared to where Frank/Devonte were at this time. If he really did elevate his jump shot and play-making to the next level there's no reason to think he wouldn't be a rockstar. Given how much Frank/Devonte improved Jr/Sr year under this staff its not out of the question.
Imagine Jr Dotson, Sr Garrett, Jr Agbaji, Soph Braun, Jr McCormack in the starting 5.. WoW
Well neither may stick in the league but I'm going to remain optimistic.
I think there's little chance Dotson doesn't get drafted at least as a 2nd round pick. He's been holding steady as a 2nd rounder since last year and the most recent update from ESPN (who have guys plugged into the league/GM's) had him going 51st. He's the leading scorer at Kansas. The last two PG's that led their team in scoring both got drafted in the 2nd round (Mason, Graham). A lot of season left for him to elevate his profile.
jayballer73 said:
BeddieKU23 said:
I wouldn't count out Doke just yet. Although I think its a longshot I can see him making a G-League team and someone taking a chance on developing him. You can't teach his size. He's only 20 years old. Not saying he'll be drafted but I do think he'll get a look or two from someone intrigued with him.
Agreed. He might be able to find some team that might be willing , I just don't believe he will be that fit, yet on the other hand yes he does have his size and rebounds well - -another question that comes into play would be stamina - -can he maintain the NBA pace up and down the floor - just seems like a long shot. - -Never say never I reckon
I can't imagine he'll become a starter in the NBA by any means which would require him to be asked to play big minutes. I don't see that for him. He's just so big and has a freakish wingspan that physically and athletically he fits at the next level. I can see a team stashing him in the G-League and finding out what they can do to improve his skill level. I think since he's still young there is upside to taking a shot. Who knows I'm probably wrong here but I'm always optimistic a Jayhawk gets a shot. It's incredible seeing what Devonte is doing this year!
I wouldn't count out Doke just yet. Although I think its a longshot I can see him making a G-League team and someone taking a chance on developing him. You can't teach his size. He's only 20 years old. Not saying he'll be drafted but I do think he'll get a look or two from someone intrigued with him.
Yup we did recruit Tshiebwe but West Virginia had the inside track with him from the beginning so there wasn't much we could do in that recruitment. Knowing what kind of player he was coming into College it's no surprise how he played against us in Allen. He'll be in the NBA next year.
There isn't a one size fits all answer when it comes to the NBA. If his plan is to leave after the season, best of luck to the young man.
Dotson is struggling shooting the 3, most of College Basketball is struggling adjusting to the new line. He's also playing 35 minutes a game and defending at a high level.
Agbaji is struggling to shoot the 3 just as much as Dotson is recently. I believe he's 4-19 in the last 5 games.
Despite the shooting numbers being lower Dotson's Efficiency is way up this season from a year ago. Kenpom has him as one of the 5 best players in all of College Basketball.
Did you know that Udoka Azubuike has just as many turnovers as Devon Dotson in over 100 less minutes of playing time?
We also got Josh "unpacked his bags" Jackson, he's in the G-League
Or success story Joel, or the "next Wilt" Andrew Wiggins who are in the league.
For every recruiting strategy there are strengths and weaknesses.
Recruiting the Oubre/Wiggins types keeps recruits eyes on your program if they are successful in the NBA. Would KU be as successful today if they avoided the Top 100 kids all together the last 10 years?
Self and his staff definitely went through a period where they chased the top talent exclusively. They still do put their hat in the ring for top talent (Bryce Thompson) but its clear to see the recruiting strategy has changed recently bringing in Garrett, Agbaji, Braun and then next season having Harris, Grant-Foster among others sprinkled in. Next years team may only have 2 High School All American's on the roster (Dave, Bryce) and half a dozen or so Top 100 players.. Going to be interesting to see if it pays off.
Your right about that and probably one of the things that keeps the staff on his trail
Loved his poise in the West Virginia game and really the last 4 games or so he hasn't looked like a freshman out there. That's key as we head into Big-12 play and further, we have a freshman making an impact going into the middle part of the season that not only fans are seeing as important but the boss man himself.
I think he's a good shooter, he was coming out of high school. Staff may tinker with getting a higher release at some point but I love his confidence from what I've seen and I think he'll continue to make big shots going forward. What's been most surprising about him is his ability to get into the lane and then finish over bigger defenders. One of these days he's going to rise up and poster someone as he tried to do over that Mammoth sized Tshiebwe. Braun is looking like another excellent find for the staff.
Dotson leads the Big-12 in scoring.
Leads the Big-12 in FT's (made and attempts)
Top 5 in assists (5th) and steals (2nd) per game.
His usage is up over 7% from last year, his PER is up 7 points from last season and he's playing 35 minutes a night (3rd most in the league).
Has he improved enough to be a 1st round pick? Unlikely at this point. A 40% 3 point shot would maybe entice some teams at the bottom of the 1st but at his size his ceiling was always limited.
We'll welcome him back with open arms if he did decide to stay another year. He'd be the best player in College Basketball next season.
He might end up 1st team All Big-12, Big-12 POY, 1st team All American and potentially lead this team to a National Championship. What will be said if all that happens?
I'm still on the fence with Dave at the next level but as with any Hawk I'm always hoping they make it. I saw him in person a few weeks ago against UMKC and he was terrific but I need to see him have those games against Power 5 teams. He will flash like that rebound & dunk in the WVU game but consistency has still been an issue with him when we face good teams.
Don't get me wrong I'm a big fan of his and he'll be here 4 years so next year and the following year he will have the opportunity to prove what kind of professional career he might have. His improved shooting touch helps him tremendously. That should continue to be a point of emphasis for him as he gets older. If he could expand his range out to the 3 point line and show that range later in his career that could really give him some looks from the NBA. I think he can lose another 5-10 pounds without sacrificing much, he's a big boy out there but I do think his ability to defend and his athleticism has another level he can get to carrying a little bit less weight. He's made a remarkable transformation of his body since High School and I think he'll continue to refine his body with the new S&C coach.
Zags defense is terrible this year.
They are also playing at least 3 big men and I'm sure most of the league they are in has gone small.
If I read correctly the government is trying to squash this stuff from getting out right? Nike money money
If you look at the games where KU has played good teams Dave has really struggled. Much of that could be playing out of position but it makes me wonder just how far away he still is from making the kind of impact Doke can give on a nightly basis. It will be interesting to see next year what Dave can do playing his more natural position and being asked to step into a bigger role and leader.
FarmerJayhawk said:
Wrinkle. Zion Harmon is reclassifying and KU is an option. He'll visit for the Tennessee game (I think)
Interesting we have been hanging around in his recruitment. Small guard but Self seems to love them
Your right he did well giving Doke a breather, playing the 5.
drgnslayr said:
I think Braun is showing us he will be a key to our success at a late run.
We may want to bookmark this as the potential turning point
I will add that he crunches the lineup when his teams are not playing well as was the case in the first half Saturday.
BShark said:
@BeddieKU23 We don't have a 4 man on the entire roster. Jalen is the closest.
And even if he was healthy would we trust him to defend the way Self demands?
Looking at the entire schedule the rest of the way most are playing 4 out. Braun's emergence is really fortuitous to Self re-thinking his lineup and style of play going forward.
On Saturday the best lineup KU put out was the Dotson, Garrett, Agbaji, Braun, Azubuike. Avg 1.26 points per possession.
2nd best combination was Dotson, Braun, Agbaji, Moss, Azubuike, scored 1.06 points per possession.
Teddy two time Allen ends up at Nebraska. Former West Virginia player that was canned by Huggy bear. Very surprised he got another chance to say the least.
Everyone can see the Offense isn't elite but the defense is one of the best Self has ever had. This is still a top 15 offense nationally so I do think we tend to be overcritical..
What I do think is comparable is the difference in spacing, energy, movement and efficiency in the 4 guard vs 2 big lineup. I was hoping Jesse or someone would run the numbers soon on the difference.
Things have changed in the past two months. Dave is not a 4 man, its clear to see. Braun is starting to earn Self's trust since the Nova game. Enaruna is going through freshman things now and struggling to impact the game against better competition removing him from heavy minutes. Braun gives Self 5 guards to rotate and switch to the 4 guard lineup. Self trusting in his 5 guards seems to be the key to the offense maximizing its potential
But the staff has made miracles with shooters in the past. I think knowing he wont be here 4 years has made the sense of urgency to be Devonte/Frank good now the expectation.
BShark said:
@BeddieKU23 Last year was pretty bad as well to be fair. Offense was give the ball to Dedric and pray.
True. Somehow I think unless we scrap the 2 bigs for a majority of the game, say 30 minutes small, 10 big we wont see the offense maximize its potential. It's a good thing most of the Big 12 will force KU to go small.
Crimsonorblue22 said:
Think Marcus will guard Haliburton?
Absolutely especially since there is a big size difference between them. Haliburton is their entire offense
The biggest jump Dotson could have made was becoming a better shooter, a more complete scorer. He still doesn't have a midrange or floater and his jumpshot requires space to get off so he rarely takes contested 3s. That's why it doesnt appear he has improved as much as we might have hoped but there is no doubt he is a better player then he was as a freshman. He is one the best guards as a sophomore that Self has ever had. He could be an All American. Big 12 POY and 1st team Big 12 player by end of conference play and the season
The biggest thing with him seems to be poise in crunch time and not getting sped up. We forget it's his 2nd year because he has ran the show since day 1. I think his last 3 games have been average but if we know anything about Devon he is going to bounce back.
BShark said:
@BeddieKU23 Braun figuring things out defensively would be a game changer. Dot, Garrett and Ochai are all plus defenders for their position.
Agree. Braun has a knack for the ball. Just need him to show toughness
BShark said:
This defense slaps. Most since 08 which ended at 8.9. 2010 is the only other team above 8 a game going back that far.
Definitely have 4 guards that have a nose for the ball defensively
BShark said:
BeddieKU23 said:
KU now 7-2 vs Kenpom top 100. #15 offense, #2 defense. The defense is winning games cause the offense isnt playing 4 guards enough.
Amazing to me that we suck at offense and are #15. If the team ever figures it out, watch out.
Probably #15 because of the good field goal %, low 3 attempts with decent % made and a few other metrics that matter.
It certainly is surprising given how the offense sputters and struggles to score at times. We may have an over critical look since it's our team but certainly the offense isnt as good as we have seen in other years and it's very likely not going to change
BShark said:
One man team, but always dangerous against us in Ames.
Def a one man band. Bolton is good for 4 or 5 3s against us.
In every sense of the word losing to this version of Iowa St would be embarrassing
dylans said:
@drgnslayr Devon just isn’t good yet, and no one is good enough to spell him, so he’s got to play. Hopefully he figured it out, but the clock is ticking.
He was definitely tired at the end of the game yesterday but made the free throws at least. Trainer was stretching his left leg at halftime more then usual. Probably nursing something minor.
KU now 7-2 vs Kenpom top 100. #15 offense, #2 defense. The defense is winning games cause the offense isnt playing 4 guards enough.