@Jayballer54 You said, "... but who knows actually maybe the team might even play better now with closure ..."
Exactly. Drama over. What ifs over. Possibilities over. We have our team.
If we hold to form, we'll struggle today. But if we have moved to a different place, we steamroll Baylor.
@wissox And Preston/Cliff were never ruled ineligible by the NCAA. Any penalties our guys have gotten (Jackson, Selby) have been relatively minor.
@JayHawkFanToo You're not dismissing the possibility of a behind the scenes deal, are you? Wouldn't it be prudent for Self to make a deal that protected the integrity of his program, if he was not part of it and did not have prior knowledge of it?
@BeddieKU23 When will we know the truth? I wonder how long it will take.
KU is a public institution. Would we not be entitled to see the information submitted to the NCAA? Would we not be entitled to see the fruits of the money spent by this public institution?
@DoubleDD KU is not persecuted, KU is not the victim of the NCAA. It may help to try to rationalize it that way, but for the life of me, I can’t look back on any player situation where it was handled unfairly by the NCAA. Of course, I admit, we don’t know yet about Preston.
Without rules, there is no CBB.
@majalay Excellent theorizing. Interesting possibilities.
So as I’m reading more, if the adidas thing is part of this, the connect the dots could be Billy gets a car paid for by money he or his mom got from adidas? If that is true, then the dishonesty/deception is deep. But we don’t know. Will we ever know?
@BShark Why do you think it has something to do with the Adidas scandal?
Perhaps the biggest disaster of the Self era regarding a recruit. But we are better to have closure. And Self took action to get DeSousa in and eligible to mitigate the disaster. Now, let's play ball.
It is good to know that "BC Igokea will keep raising." We will all be watching, I'm sure.
Basketball is first and foremost a game of skill. It would take some odd alignment of Jupiter and Venus, and a double dose of loco weed, for Self to ever play Mitch over any of our skill players at the three spot … or foul trouble. That said, Mitch has filled in admirably and he had some big plays vs. WVU. Natural swatter. I like him much better in the four spot when we go conventional, whenever that happens.
@mayjay I'm no fan of those turnovers. And surely, no doubt, they were a component in the loss. As a lurker, you exercised great restraint. Releford was one of my favorite Jayhawks. Selby perhaps one of my least favorite. Brady was a five year, bled crimson and blue guy. I would take Brady (and EJ/Releford/Reed) as a part of this program any day over Selby. No doubt.
@jaybate-1-0 Really appreciate that. Very nice of you. We did go through a period of lively debate, shall we say, back at kusports.com. Smoking the peace pipe over there was an important step. One thing I will say is that in the many aspects of my life, reading your posts (and re-reading them as is sometimes necessary for me to even attempt to comprehend your higher level of thought and expression), is as educational for me as anything I am exposed to. You have made us all smarter. And you have made all of us think much more than we otherwise would. Rock Chalk back at you, a great respect, my friend.
2011 is the sorest of sore subjects for me.
@jaybate-1-0 You said, "I have long been a Brady advocate. HEM has long found him lacking."
If there is another topic that created more words of debate between the two of us, I'm struggling to recall it. Long, long ago, I think we finally agreed to disagree. Or something like that ...
@JayHawkFanToo If Selby would have had one shred of sense (or a parent or parents that had any sense) he would have stayed at KU, listened, learned, and become as star. If he had done that, I bet he's in the NBA right now.
@mayjay I appreciate all of that, but you weren't around for the arguments. It was a knockout. I won. You must assume that I don't recall much of this. My argument is not that "Selby would have taken us to the final four." Fake news. I never argued for Selby to be the one guy to take Brady's minutes. My argument was that EJ, Releford, and Selby were better than those two (Morningstar/Reed). In fact, I was much more on the EJ bandwagon. I argued to bench both Reed/Morningstar, and go with EJ, Releford, and Selby in place of their minutes. That by March, we'd have better players.
First, I assume that you checked and saw that the turnover margin in favor of VCU was only +1. So turnovers were a push. In fact, you would expect against VCU and their style of play the margin might have been higher.
Second, do you even know how many of Markieff's turnovers led to points? Uh, just two. Already heard that argument. Already defeated it. Further, as I recall the topic, Markieff had 7 turnovers. The play by play showed 7 not 8. Still high, but that's my recollection.
I said time after time during the season that playing those two would cost us. It did. What seemed apparent was that in games vs. top teams, I never suggest something is the only reason. Big, big reason in this game. Selby, EJ, and Releford were way underutilized heading into the tourney. Look at their minutes. The same things we talk about now -- giving players game experience so they are comfortable and ready for the moment -- were true then. If those three guys would have played all year, over Morningstar/Reed, we would have had better players. Some proof, in part, look at what we had in EJ and Releford the NCAA tourney in 2012. EJ at the 2, and Releford at the 3 were better overall players. If someone would rather have the Reed/Morningstar, more power to them. I'd kick their tails with EJ and Releford. In fact, it is interesting that both guys somehow won an Elite 8 game in 2012, and a FF game that same year.
It is pretty funny. Two guys that went 2-16 from the field were not a major component to the loss, according to you.
And then you reference pro ball -- what are Reed and Morningstar doing? Nothing. It was unreal during that season how many folks were actually suggesting those guys could play pro, even NBA. I was the bad guy because I pointed out the complete absurdity.
Anyway, I grant you that you could be right. Heck, we could have lost before the Elite 8 if the path were different after playing those three. But it matters little what anyone says to me on this topic. I'm a rock head and not changing my mind.
@AsadZ Which one do you think, though, Sam or Marcus, if say both got 20 minutes per game, would be the better player for this team in March? Which one is the better gamble on the minutes available?
I think Self is choosing Marcus because he brings a high end talent to the lineup defensively, something we need.
@Texas-Hawk-10 We lost to VCU. Brady/Reed were a combined 2-16. That entire season I predicted exactly what happened. I whined and complained about Morningstar constantly. I suggested that in high leverage games, those lower talent guys would cost us. Eerily similar to our Landen Lucas experiences. We can make all the arguments we want about those three guys, but in our last games of the season (which of course by default become the most important) they were major weak links. Selby played in every game he was eligible, except in early February. The injury was done. Self abandoned him, in favor of the low talent duo. When you look at his games when he played over 20 minutes, together, it showed his worth. EJ/Selby all day over Brady/Reed. All day.
All both of them needed was playing time.
Releford was clearly better. He hurt his ankle, but when he got back, he was better too. Had an excellent game against MU in February.
Self blew it 2011. Poor personnel decisions. Of course, we might not have been in the Elite 8 vs. VCU, in that precise spot should another path have been chosen. But the universe of possibilities is too much to consider.
That's way long ago. Just my opinion. I've been told a million times that I'm wrong. But I'm right. To my grave believing I'm right on that. My mind will never change.
And I don't think Bill Self today, would make those same decisions in 2011.
@StLJhawk On Cunliffe, I don’t see more upside this season. Meaning, I think the better gamble is on Garrett and Newman to be better in March. But I’m not certain by any means.
Now, in 2011, I was certain. If we didn’t have either Reed or Morningstar, I think the EJ, Selby, Releford combo would have been better. EJ proved his worth in huge games playing the 2 spot in 2011/2012. He was a pure 2 (that I mistook as a possible 1). In hindsight, he should have started at the 2 from day
one and been left alone. And if he and
Selby were simply played instead of sitting behind Brady and Tyrel, I will go to my grave believing we win the title. Releford hurt his ankle, So was less available. But we all saw him perform the next year as well. He and EJ, as a combo, were just better. Selby needed major PT. He was a talent that needed some patience. Self had his security blankets that were safe. That reliance on safety ended up being fatal.
@AsadZ I am big Garrett fan. But I’m a bit discouraged by his timidity on offense. I get that he’s not a great shooter, but he’s had good opportunities to drive and yet he defers. Also, he seemed strangely a bit hesitant to attack the boards. I think Self sees the defense thing as a necessary element, but I would strongly consider playing Sam over Marcus if Marcus doesn’t show some improvement offensively. Marcus does move the ball well and is a nice post feeder, channeling some inner B-star. Right now I’d stick with Garrett. Tough call. What do you think?
Unequivocally Marcus Garrett. Full bore, 100% defense. Foul out. The nice thing with Garrett is when he focuses on defense and doesn't care if he scores, we won't notice much of a change on the offensive end. Then, after that, I have no idea. Graham's our best defender, but that would be an exhausting task for our top offensive guy.
Might we see a junk defense?
@Fightsongwriter I take the 5th.
@justanotherfan Rewind a few years ago and I was saying the same thing about Releford, EJ, Selby, White, Diallo, Adams, Greene, et. al. You have to let a guy settle in, be comfortable, relax a bit, and just play. Confidence is key. Game experience is invaluable. I think you're right. I like your suggestion of just holding him out -- the roller coaster does him no good. If he's not Self's choice, so be it ... use him only if absolutely necessary, or in scrub time.
One thing I will say, though, is that I do think Self has dialed it back on the quick hook. Cunliffe got one of the epic quick hooks vs. KSU. One, quick/silly/out of control foul, and immediately out. Haven't seen too many of those this season (in comparison to past years). The most epic hook I can recall was Anrio Adams -- in the game, excited, inbounds to Adams, dribbles off his foot out of bounds, turnover, and he's out. Total game time, 3 seconds. Beautiful. No cereal eating on that one.
The difference is, Self reinserted Cunliffe pretty quickly. Adams, not so lucky. Where is that guy, anyway?
On the dialing it back thing, Self really seems to be a shadow of his former self (pun intended). But the Cunliffe yank was a clear reminder of seasons' past.
I like Cunliffe, but I'm not on his bandwagon for increased PT because I don't think he's more talented than the guys we're playing. Meaning, I don't see his upside this season as outstripping the guys Self is playing right now.
Picking a scab -- imagine that Reed and Morningstar were both injured and could not play beginning January 1, 2011. And imagine the national championship trophy sitting in KU's trophy case. Just imagine.
We beat WVU, DeSousa is eligible, we are now perched atop the Big 12, and all is well ... and for about 48 hours, no one mentioned Billy Preston. Life is good.
I don’t know. Ask Fran Fraschilla.
@Texas-Hawk-10 I think you're right. He'd have a dangling semester out there if not. Old(er) guy brain cramp. I think I was wrong with CF too.
@Gunman You know, it might. But I think that we are in a different age now with coach Self -- the Era of Great Tolerance. Heck, he yanked Sam for a bad foul, and got him right back in. Self has softened. He seems to accept mistakes much better. But being safe and not throwing up a "brick" as one of Garrett's shots was correctly referred to last game, is the safer path.
Attacking the hoop, though, seems to be available to Garrett. I counted at least 6 missed opportunities from him last game. A big number. On one, his defender was recovering back and he had almost the entire half of the floor. He may not have gotten to the hoop, but he could have at a minimum made the attempt and I'm sure a dish opportunity would present on some, too.
@Texas-Hawk-10 Yes, but if he sat this entire season, he'd have three full seasons left. Five to play four. His freshman season at ASU, this season at KU, then three more. The key is he would only play in four academic years -- his first, third, fourth and fifth. That's my interpretation. Perhaps I'm subject to correction there. We, I thought, discussed that with CF a few years back.
I think Cunliffe is in a tough spot. Next season, assuming we have Vick or get Langford, what's his role? Personally, I'd love to see Vick return. But does that make him the 5th perimeter player in a lineup that is playing two bigs? Not the sweet spot. His opportunity is likely based on need. Vick leave and we don't get another high end perimeter player (Langford). That said, you never know. Dotson, Grimes, Cunliffe, with Garrett off the bench. Or if Vick returns, Sam is better than Garrett possibly so sneaks into the 4th role.
@mayjay My preference is that we not take OADs that are risks of not fitting what Self wants. Seriously, though, why would a player pick Kansas if that player did not have an intention of doing what Self wanted? It's not a secret. And recruiting is not an exact science, of course. Diallo was a late spring signing .. no other real options. But the only harm is the OAD drama and internal impact on the team, to the extent that is detrimental. It could have been zero internally. Externally, of course, the OAD stuff is too much. Everything is child's play next to the Wiggins over-hype. Give me a JJ every so often. It will cool my whining about OADs a little.
@kjayhawks @mayjay Regarding OADs, some coaches are more OAD friendly. I know some here were very adamant that Self is fine with OADs. But the real issue is whether the coach is more system oriented, or if the coach permits more freedom. Great OADs, ones that have it all, can adapt and excel. JJ is the perfect one. Others can't. Others don't fit the system. Diallo is one. Diallo might have been fine somewhere else, and should have been fine here, but the threshold of acceptability was not achieved. That threshold is certainly impacted by other options. Cliff was another that struggled to meet Self's bar. It's really all coach related, and whether a coach can stomach, or needs, to play the player. Self, I'm confident in saying, values more a player that is less talented but does what he wants, over a high ceiling player that deviates too much from what he expects. This, I think, has always forged the debate. Accept more mistakes now, and have a better player in March. No doubt in my mind that would have been the case with Diallo. Self flat abandoned Diallo. Always a lively discussion.
I'm all for the NCAA legislating against the ridiculous screaming, yelling, posturing, etc. directed at opponents. An issue is always the consistent enforcement.
Keegan: Players Eligible All Year Keep Kansas In Title Hunt
Looking at his columns, I realized Keegan stole my idea that KU football should shift to the triple option.
http://www2.kusports.com/news/2017/dec/21/tom-keegan-blueprint-used-military-academies-suits/ ↗
@jaybate-1-0 It appears you are excited about the big WVU win .. I think you set a record for threads started in a 24 hr period. Go get ‘em.
Right on point. Silvio can take some heat off. Excited to see him progress. We should view him as a gift.
But I will bet you that the film room will be an unpleasant place for him initially from an effort standpoint. He will soon understand Self's expectations. A few times where he was a spectator as the shot went up, watching, not blocking out; and then one time where he didn't even run down the floor. I'm guessing that will be a point of discussion.
@JayHawkFanToo Bingo. A good balance is the key. Attacking the hoop is critical. And it makes our shooting that much more effective.
If Garrett doesn't play better, he might lose minutes. He's too passive on offense when opportunities to drive are there, he's not attacking the rim on rebounds, and he had a couple defensive lapses. He needs to step it up.
This was easily the best win of the season. The type of win the creates a tone the rest of the way. DG and Svi were clutch. Huge play by Mitch late. Just a great team win. Self had the boys ready to capitalize.
I think it is easily Udoka. Skilled, soft hands, nice feet. He's clearly progressed. Big guy we can count on. With Devonte, his approach has made him better -- more driving, more drawing of fouls.
My second pick behind Udoka, though, would be Svi. He's shooting 9% better from 3 pt range, he's improved on rebounding from 1.9 to 3.1 per 40 minutes, and on scoring by 5 points per 40 minutes.
@JayHawkFanToo And I don't think you can make WVU pay every time, or every other time. You risk getting sped up too much. But attacking provides opportunity. I'm more about being aggressive getting the ball up, then looking to capitalize on a 2 on 1, or 3 on 2 as it is available. But also some specific, and rather easy, press break schemes that can create opportunity. Down court screens are big items there. I would think that KU wants a high possession game. Just not out of control,. sped up. But you've heard my press break stuff for years. I think we win. 86-83.
@FarmerJayhawk But I don't think that you are considering the deal from the start. The "deal" is exactly what is done. The coach can let a player go. The player agrees to that to start with.
If you want to compare to a regular student, the athlete can do everything the regular student can do in changing schools. What is that you think the athlete can't do, that a regular student can do? An athlete can transfer anytime that athlete wants, correct? And can go anywhere his academics will permit, correct? The only difference is the restriction on competing. And, of course, a regular student doesn't have that. An athlete can leave anytime and go work, just like a non student-athlete. To answer your question, the student-athlete is not different at all in comparison to a regular student.
The rules on transfers competing are based on the fact that competition is involved.
Edit: I had started this and didn't see @JayHawkFanToo's reply.
@BeddieKU23 Here's hoping we're working on a press break that is fast, attacking, and makes WVU pay for pressing -- not the slow .. methodical .. lobs .. that permit opponents to dictate pace.
Slippery slope, bending to pressure from those that want to destroy college basketball. It is comical to listen to the arguments of folks equating players and coaches, as if the workers in the store have anything to do with the CEO. But yes, it's the point of view you come from .. your political perspective. Mean old bosses. Folks that make high incomes are the enemy. Workers of the word, unite. That is what this is all about.
Competition is the real engine of change. And to date, despite all the whining from the Bilas-wing of the CBB spectrum, where is the competition? Where are the better alternative leagues for these oppressed players, slaves some call them, to go make money? Heck, Billy Preston's mom said he could have gone overseas and been an "instant millionaire." Of course, with all the whining, CBB is the better choice. The CBB whiners have no argument, they have no proof, they have nothing other than what they think is right. And it all starts with their politics. Workers of the world, unite.
The reality is they need to keep the fans away from the players. Players have a lot of adrenaline, they are intense from the competition, and losing heightens that.
I personally love coach Izzo. Humble, high character, great guy. I think everyone would feel comfortable sending their son to play for him.
@cragarhawk This team can beat anyone. Of course, the converse seems to be true as well. Weird things can happen. Why not this season?
@BShark That makes sense. But does this team make any sense?
@JayHawkFanToo I can agree to that.
@mayjay I saw some projections on Moose getting near $100. I kind of look at it from a % standpoint -- stats vs. money. Market is not optimal for these guys.
@mayjay The fact that he played SS gives us an indication that he was a superior fielder. But not a MLB level SS. But of course, the best players on club teams/HS play SS anyway.
My evidence is circumstantial only, based on his level of fielding and others that have moved there. I would not be concerned that the Royals never played him at 1st. That's relative to the team and the best lineup on a particular day. Meaning, the best lineup would always have Moose at the 3rd.
We can agree that you have no evidence, other than your circumstantial evidence, to suggest it would be a bad move. I grant you that it might turn out that way. I assume you can grant me the possibility that it could work out.
But, alas, my only reason for suggesting it is if we were to have to lose Hosmer. Bringing Moose in would be better than Moss. But I do think they could play Hunter Dozier there. I think they'd played him some there in the minors. He was hurt last season.
I love Moose's game, and wish we could keep him.
@Blown You know, about 15,000 minutes later, or something like that. But here we are.
Self: "When he's in there for 'Dok, I don't have any problems at all,” Self said. “When 'Dok and him are in there together, that would be OK. If he and Mitch are in there together, that would be fine, he can still play the five and Mitch can play the four. So it just probably depends on the situation.”
KUSTEVE said:
@HighEliteMajor I didn't want to take the time to explain my post. It's pretty obvious you didn't have a grasp of what my meaning was, but wanted to challenge it anyway. It's not that i don't mind battling with you, challenging you, or at times, flattening you, so to speak. It's just so much work, though. To deal with a person whose end sum game is to literally find fault in everything the coach does, and many of the players could actually turn into almost a full time job. Nothing personal, but I don't think you're worth it. If you think Bill is some diabolical creature from the Black Lagoon, then knock yourself out. Hopefully, we'll go on a winning streak, and it will shut you up for a while, as our winning has silenced you before in the past. Remember the litter of kittens you had when Landen was named starter over Diallo, then we win 17 games in a row? I guess you went into hiding and we thankfully didn't hear from you for a long time. So, there is always hope. All we have to do is win, and it seems to shut you up. So, RCJHGU. Cya- wouldn't want to be ya...
I begin this by suggesting we move forward and perhaps leave behind us an two year old irritations or grudges. I have none, but I think it's best to do that.
On your older points of irritation (at least the one raised), I do think that you forget a large part of the discussion. In fact, in the thread below, I called for Self to stop with the silly "C5" concept and just pick his guy -- just weeks before he did just that. I preferred Diallo and felt that Lucas' limitations would end hurting this team. But I called for a decision to be made at the 5 spot before it was done, and that decision Self made led to a huge winning streak.
/topic/4036
I will also say that I supported the move to Lucas when it finally happened because I felt that Diallo's playing time had been neglected to the extent we had lost significant development of Diallo.
It might be important to know, as well, that we did lose to Villanova. And that we got zero post scoring. Ochefu scored as many points as Lucas and Ellis combined. Diallo's athleticism would have been a very nice option. We win that game if Diallo is put in a position to be game ready, and played. No doubt in my mind. Now, of course, we don't know if we would have been in that position, in the elite 8, if the path had changed before it. I acknowledge that. Lucas was a stable player, and a rebounding machine.
You of course ignore a huge issue in my criticisms of Self. The fact that Self admitted he was wrong on the biggest discussion point probably ever on this site (and by consequence, myself, and others, were right). Do you remember my square peg, round hole discussions? Self forcing our team to be something it wasn't. And all of the upset here that folks had that I had the temerity to question the god, Bill Self. And then he goes and admits he was wrong -- after all of that. His words undercut all of the defenses offered for his unreasonable actions.
/topic/3858
I felt compelled to respond. As we move forward, I'll extend my hand to you, suggest we put grudges or whatever from the past behind us, and try to discuss hoops without that interfering. Perhaps that would work for you.
@mayjay What you don't know is if Moose played 1st while in high school and in the extensive time spent in club baseball. In fact, it's highly likely that he did play other positions. 1st is logical for a guy like Moose. I don't know though. Some guys get extra time in the OF, like Hosmer did (if you recall that discussion about Hosmer being able to play OF when Butler was still here). In club ball, you will have two guys that can play one spot, so even the best guys might only play their positions 3 out of 4 games. You could play 5-6 games over a 3 day period.
Who guards Dean Wade? Mitch Slap? Can Doke? Svi?
@BShark Thank you for the PG rating.
JayHawkFanToo said:
He starts to feel the snake...:
Not advisable on many levels.
BShark said:
I shouldn't do this to myself but I do expect Silvio to be able to play against KSU.
No, you shouldn't do that to yourself. Though, GREAT NEWS, it sounds like word is coming any minute.