@JayhawkRock78 Right on .. that and his semi collapse when we beat Davidson to get to the FF were the most emotion he's ever shown, other than when Anrio Adams got the ball stolen in three seconds (and other such moments).
HighEliteMajor
5416 posts
@joeloveshawks I would definitely trade places record and achievement-wise with UConn during their run of four national titles. And no .. for those whose immediate response might be defensive .. I wouldn't rather root for UConn. It is an interesting analysis. But I'd take the national titles, and periods of NITs or nothing like UConn has had. That is retrospective though. I'd much rather take our program and our standing moving forward. But looking back, I'd rather have the hardware and banners.
I do value conference titles. Don't get me wrong. It just depends upon what you desire. I see certain folks that regularly slobber over conference titles and seem to care very little and/or take great pains to tell everyone why national titles aren't worth that much. They work very hard to argue that point. That's fine. But logically, they fail.
They fail because there is a pecking order. There are many conferences. Many conference title trophies. There is one national title trophy. It is how you determine the true champion. Not the best team. But the champion.
I don't think I have recalled one coach showing tears for winning his conference title. But it's common place when in comes to national titles.
It is interesting that national title banners in Allen are separate, large, and displayed prominently at the end of the fieldhouse, while all the conference titles are neatly arranged on one banner. Wonder why that is?
Again, the conference titles are very nice. I'd rather win them than not win them. They are a factor in determining great programs. A conference title, though, is part of the path to greatness -- it's not greatness.
Our accrual of titles in a succession is an historic achievement. I get that. But I take much more pride in the 2008 title, and even our great run in 2012, than I do in the conference title streak.
@approxinfinity Come on, man, don't you know that national championships are lucky? What top program would even think to measure themselves by national titles? Geez, you gotta win 6 games in a row. In a single elimination format, how can the real best team ever win? Look how many times Duke and UConn have gotten lucky. Self has just had bad luck. Can't penalize him for bad luck. Look at the Stanford game. What were we to do? And the Wichita St. game. How was Kansas ever expected to win? How many league titles did Roy win at UNC? Isn't that the better question? Wouldn't that make him a legend?
Now can I (puke)?
@JayHawkFanToo I just saw your post on Smart. Smart did do something that gain him fame, and he did something that deserves high recognition -- he got a team to the Final Four. Not only that, it was a team that was in a play-in game. Of course, VCU beat top seeded Kansas in a game we'd rather forget. While I know you don't place much value on this achievement -- relative to conference stuff -- a large percentage of the basketball universe does.
The point that you're perhaps making though is he had his 15 minutes of fame. He has not proven that he is anything more than a good coach that had a nice run one season. And he's lived off that burst of fame for quite a while now. I'm with you there.
The key is getting a commitment before they leave town .. just need one of them.
@drgnslayr @HawkInMizery Personally, I do trust Self on recruits. But I won't trust him if he brings Thon in for part of the season. Of course, whether I trust him or not doesn't change anything anyway.
I don't think that if Self took Maker it would be because he thought he could keep him another season. He knows, no matter what, that this kid has little interest in college basketball. To NOT assume that would be naïve with most every top 10 guy. You have to assume that, and then just be pleasantly surprised if a kid stays.
It would cheapen our team for 2015-16 and it would cheapen our program. I have suggested that OADs are only worth it, ultimately, if we win a national championship that season. With a half season guy, I don't even care about that. Even if he would come in and lead us to an NCAA title (or help with it), I don't want it (and if my prior posts are any indication, that's a big, big deal for me). You have to draw a line somewhere and that's my line.
Heck, I might protest .. go to a game at Allen, dressed in all black, with a shirt that says: "Kansas Jayhawks - Whore Makers". Stand up quietly until I'm kicked out.
Let's think about this a bit. What is Kansas basketball? What are we? You can't just sell out and say win at all costs. When you do that, you are a whore.
If we don't draw the line with this, is there any line?
@KUSTEVE More like a mid-September chicken .... I think some places start senior discounts at 55 don't they?
Can you imagine how sickening it would be to have Thon Maker show up in December and play for Kansas? I can't even fathom it.
Is it a recruiting violation for a booster to have contact with a recruit and tell the recruit don't come to Kansas?
I'm wondering if we're still in on Papagiannis or has that ship sailed? Right now, we likely only have two bigs for 2016-17.
@VailHawk Were you referring to 2014-15, or next season? (I'm funny, aren't I?) Doesn't matter, you're right.
But don't lose faith in Selden. Selden's shooting improved from three and I think it will bump up even more next season. He has been a disappointment based on the hype. But imagine him being the #35 player instead of OAD fringe? What we've seen then makes more sense, and it should give us hope for next season.
By the way, I read your dream sequence last night. 85? Yikes. Did I smell old?
Here's a link on Eubanks ↗.
@jayballer54 Question for you and everyone ... why would this kid, or any of current group we're targeting (Mack, Vick, Eubanks) come in and steal playing time from any of our five perimeter players? None of these guys are that quality. Which player would sit, as Self is only going to play five perimeter guys max post-Christmas?
I'm happy to inspire counterpoints!
@jaybate-1.0 Let me ask this .. Why do you think we need another perimeter player? Now, I think we do as well, but only as insurance. A sixth perimeter guy is terrific depth. But I don't think we need one to play any role this season. In fact, I would argue that our five perimeter players offer perhaps the most diverse set of skills we have seen on our perimeter since 2008.
Am I giddy? Maybe.
But I love our perimeter group. But to reach the levels of my expectations, each will have to make improvement. Essentially, think of it is a trade -- Svi for Oubre -- and adding a year of experience to each player. We're better with that.
Svi will be a better player, all around, than Oubre. Quote me on that. When we look at Svi for 2015-16, he'll be better than Oubre was in 2014-15.
Without a doubt, though, this whole deal rides on significant improvement by Selden and Svi. We need Selden to make a significant move forward, and we simply need Svi to play at a level similar to last season with the shots going in at a higher rate.
If any perimeter player we might sign can beat any of these guys out -- as a freshman -- I'll be shocked.
I really hope @jaybate-1.0 is wrong on bad ball. I think he is. But I want to make sure we're talking the same thing here. Bad ball was abandoning the post feed to a large degree. Bad ball was a very low rate of threes. And Bad Ball was utilization to a large extent of the "dream weave" as @DoubleDD called it. Bad Ball is also outside-in .. driving to create offense from the outside.
That is different than attacking on the drive as part of the high/low, as we have always done. I fully expect us to drive the basketball, as Chalmers did, as Sherron did, as TT did, as EJ did. That is part of Self's overarching philosophy. But the post feed and then creating outside offense by attacking inside is the scheme.
@jaybate-1.0 is exactly right though .. Self's words many times mean nothing.
His statement here seems to have more teeth though. Mainly because we all saw it. We ran bad offense. He knows it. And of course, I may just be gullible.
But I think circumstances make this more than mere chatter.
It makes sense that Self will recommit himself to running the high/low, and I think he's kicking himself a little bit for abandoning it. I like that. I also think he's kicking himself for allowing us to be more outside-in last season. I don't like that. No one disputes that our strengths were on the perimeter. But that isn't the manner in which Self wants our team to play.
It is and will be inside-out.
Self tried to create inside opportunities by the drive it (bad ball) philosophy. When he talks of not running good offense, I think it is really hard to interpret that as a vote of confidence for bad ball. It was bad offense. Does anyone dispute that? Again, not whether it was the right decision, but whether the offense itself was just bad?
We're back to the high/low. Book it.
This past week, coach Self made this rather incredible comment:
“I probably changed too much last year. We became an inside-out team, and then obviously the last half of the season we were an outside-in-type team. We still wanted to play through our bigs, but not like we have in the past. I don’t think we ran near as good of offense last year, so hopefully personnel will allow us to do some different type things. We were thin up front last year from a production standpoint."
Thought I might take a stab at breaking this down.
-Concession that "Bad Ball" Was A Mistake: I believe that Self is flat out conceding that the "change" that occurred after the Texas Tech game was a mistake, albeit a bit backhanded in its delivery. This is Self's way of recognizing that the post Texas Tech "offense" was a disaster. He's right. It was bad offense. And this was the biggest change of last season. The drive it, drive it drive it, outside-in attack that was the biggest deviation we've ever seen offensively under Self. It was perhaps the worst offense we've run in the recent past. The weave, the emphasis on driving the ball over and over, and the lack of true, diverse motion gave us a 6-5 record to finish the season. I'm confident that Self sees this error.
-Change Was The Error: Self changed his approach after Texas Tech and "Bad Ball" thus was born. But his admission of an error was because of a deviation from his system, not because he didn't try something other than Bad Ball. His mistake, in his mind, was changing at all - deviating from his system. This is an important distinction. Admittedly, it's not what I was looking for this off season. His blown gasket was because he was horrified by the direction of his offense. Horrified by what many of us want. Horrified by any hint of "outside-in." Bill Self loves his system, and loves inside-out.
-Bad Ball's Ineffectiveness Obvious: And look, this was obvious once we began to see the results. There is no doubt that we were worse offensively the last 11 games than the prior games. The statistics don't lie. We can say it was needed, or that Self knows what's best, or whatever .. but it was worse offense. We were worse. And I do think that Self regrets it -- he "changed too much."
-Type Of Change A Different Issue: My comments about Bad Ball have been that we would have been better offensively just doing what we had been doing, rather than switching to "Bad Ball", which was all pre-Cliff (eligibility) and Ellis (injury) issues. Of course, I felt that we should have made a different sort of change, a different direction. That's a separate discussion.
-Outside-In Before Texas Tech: Self recognized that we had evolved into more of an outside-in team before the Texas Tech game. He said very clearly on January 31, 2015, that we were not an "inside-out" team. We were an outside-in team. And that's what he meant by "half of the season." Heck, we talked about it here. We were and outside-in team the minute we dominated the first half playing that way against Utah, and when we yacked up the lead playing inside-out the second half of that game. Our most effective offense was when we were gunning from the outside, and those looks were not derived from an "inside-out" approach. Self knew this. We all saw it. But he didn't like it. And he will never accept it.
-This Means Self Believed Pre-TT Offense Poor As Well: Because we were playing outside-in before Texas Tech, it also seems clear to me that Self believed our offense before the TT meltdown was poor. Not just that he wanted to play a different way, but that he felt the offense itself was bad. The comment above by Self is further evidence to me that he really did blow a gasket after Texas Tech. We kind of knew that anyway. It was not just that we were shooting threes at a high rate (too high for Self's liking), it was because Self felt that our entire offensive approach was poor. Like it or not, that means we won't see that again.
-Could Self Be Even More Rigid Offensively?: On the surface, it would seem that Self will become even more rigid. The comments seem to indicate that change is the enemy -- but I don't think so. I do think that that the days of the four out/one in weave appear to be dead. Good riddance. That was a 3-5 minute offense. It had no complexity. It was thrown together. It was easily defended when schemed against. It was not an offense that could sustain a game (as we saw). With the right personnel -- and we had the right personnel -- a four out/one in system can be tremendous. What we ran was not a system. It was a simplistic, mid-season improvisation.
-But This Is Really Good News: I analogize this to my discussion on man to man teams playing zone. Sure, you have to practice it. And practice it a lot. That's one challenge. But your coach also needs to know how to coach it. Great coaches may not be good zone defense coaches. Self coaching a four out/one in offensive scheme focused on an outside-in approach is not Self's strength. We know his strength. It's the high/low. It's what he knows. Even more importantly, it's what he believes in. Kansas will be better with Self coaching and teaching what he knows. The high/low is the greatest offensive basketball scheme ever devised. There are enumerable options. And if you can play inside-out, and you can score at the rim, it seems pretty obvious to me that playing inside-out is the better choice. My only gripe was with our personnel and the mismatch with the inside-out attack Self was running. While an initial interpretation could be that Self won't change anything, I think there is a good chance that we'll see some new wrinkles. Actually, I expect it. The change we should expect will come within his system.
-New Wrinkles In The High/Low: The change will come within Self's system. That I am now quite sure of. New wrinkles and adjustments within the system. Here's why -- nothing could have been more disturbing to Self than seeing his team's inability to score inside. I wonder if he was able to sleep after some games. We'll see some changes within his scheme to find scoring opportunities beyond our standard fare inside. I can't imagine that Self could watch last season's inside futility and not dedicate himself to modifications within his system to help mitigate those issues. I can't imagine that he won't be proactive, to ensure that such failures inside don't occur at such a high rate.
-What Could We See?: I've thought about this a lot since we signed Diallo. Ellis and Diallo are both mobile. I expect that a new wrinkle could be some elevator action for the bigs -- elevator plays are ones where there are two screeners and the offensive player goes between the screeners. We run a set play with one of those looks against a zone for the PG on penetration. This is a great option for mobile bigs and would seem to fit Diallo to a T. This seems like a simple add to our motion offense (as opposed to a set play) when our three moves wing to wing, in concert with the other big. Another option could be more vigorous movement between the high and the low. In our offense, there's not a lot of exchange between the two positions -- meaning if you start high or low, you stay high or low for the possession. Where it makes the most sense is creating entry pass opportunities for a long and athletic guy like Diallo who can make plays on the move. We struggled feeding the post. This is a contrast to the static post feed. It typically has to be well timed and means that the high/low guys may move out on the floor more often. Again, this seems to fit Diallo perfectly. We've tried it sporadically, but neither Lucas nor Ellis were able to make the reception reliably. Having Svi on the wing, and perhaps more Graham (both of whom are adept passers in this type of action), will help as well. Another off shoot of this is more emphasis on the pick and roll. Again, not big changes, just doing more things that create the easy baskets that Self craves. Finally, I think we'll see more pick and pop action. Bragg, like Ellis, has the ability to shoot from outside. I think Self will be more accepting of this if we are able to get easy baskets inside, and if those opportunities flow from the inside, such as Diallo or the low post kicking it out after the post opportunity has passed. We've obviously done this in the past. I think we could just see more of it. Imagine the possibilities with Bragg and Ellis, rotating more between the high and the low, both able to hit the 15 footer? If we are scoring more easy baskets, I sense that Self will be more receptive to our post guys stretching the floor as we've done in the past.
-Three Point Shooting Will Increase: The three point shooting rate has declined in each of the last four seasons. Oddly, I expect it to increase substantially next season -- within the high/low, inside-out scheme. Self is averse to the three pointer being the focus of the offense. Self is not averse to it being part of the offensive system. If we are in an offensive system that Self is comfortable with (getting a reasonable number of easy baskets inside), I do think that Self will utilize our three point game more often -- perhaps to the level it was used pre-Bad Ball. Again, as long as we're getting the requisite number of easy baskets, I think Self will tolerate the three to a higher degree. With our shooters, this could lead to a more explosive attack. But the three will never be our lead weapon.
Interested in others' thoughts on these topics. One thing I can't imagine is that Self will endure the offensive tug of war we saw last season. I don't think we'll ever see that again. And I don't think Self will simply move into 2015-16 without some adjustments. Creating some new wrinkles within his system, to get more looks inside, seems like the reasonable approach. This makes the most sense to me.
@drgnslayr I'm fine with a redshirt for Greene. But I'm in the camp that doesn't think Greene fits our system. He is a significantly below average driver of the basketball, and poor finishing at the hoop. Defense perhaps passable. But those faults don't cut it at Kansas. His skill set is shooting the ball, and obviously shooting from three ... which isn't valued at Kansas as it is most other places. He is a very worthy starter, if the three pointer was given its true value here. But it's not. Jamari Traylor took more shots than Brannen Greene did. Inexplicable. Any system that does that is flawed. Period.
I'm fine with a redshirt if it helps him more fit Self's system. I'm not optimistic on that, though. Greene isn't going to change that much. If Greene is truly going to reach his peak production, Self needs to be the one to adapt to him. And that doesn't take much. Just a little flexibility. Greene could be a massive weapon if used properly.
But the redshirt discussion goes back to the need for another perimeter guy. No way he could do that without something else at the 5th perimeter rotation spot.
@approxinfinity Insurance only. We only have 5 true perimeter players at the moment. Suppose Greene's recovery is slow, or something goes wrong there? Then we're down to 4 on the perimeter. What happens then if we get an injury? Again, just insurance against catastrophe. And we can still reload if needed the next recruiting season. Ellis possibly being able to flex to the 3 from time to time could mitigate the need, but I would bet on Ellis anywhere but in the post.
Say we sign the Greek Freak, and a insurance perimeter guy. That's our allotment of scholarships (13). The only problem with that is if something would fall in our laps in the late summer.
We lose Ellis, Traylor, Diallo, and Mickelson .. we could use three on post players, then one on a perimeter guy, or two and two. If we feared losing any perimeter guys, then we should over recruit and try to get another one (and if we get boxed on scholarships, it's survival of the fittest).
@drgnslayr "moderate failure" solely given our targets, future needs, and based on what Self has said -- Self has said we need another perimeter guy. We don't have one so far. If we land Mack, we go to successful in my book because we have filled a stated need and he's a multi-year guy. If we add the Greek Freak with Mack, I'd say it was stellar. But I probably value Mack and Papagiannis too much. Both seem to be nice adds from a program perspective.
My belief is that this recruiting season was a moderate failure. Given our targets, Self's stated needs and wants, it's a moderate failure at this point. Part of recruiting is planning for the future. We have Bragg. That is it.
After next season, right now, we have Bragg and Lucas in the post. Two players, and one is not of starter quality.
On the perimeter, it is likely we'll have Mason, Graham, and Greene back. Selden and Svi are question marks.
However, if we landed, for example, Papagiannis, that would transform in my eyes the view of this class. Having a third legitimate post player for the next season is crucial. Another possibility is a skilled transfer that will be eligible for 2016-17. Not sure we're in on any that fit that bill.
What we absolutely don't need are late signings like Traylor or Lucas in the post. We don't need that.
So maybe that isn't all there is right now. News seems pretty scant on Papagiannis.
On the perimeter, it seems like Tevin Mack or bust. But he would be a nice player to add to the mix. His hesitation would seem obvious. If our entire 5 man perimeter rotation returned for 2016-17, he'd be sitting two straight seasons.
If we didn't get Mack, it would seem wise to sign a perimeter "body" if we could. Unranked. Emergency only.
So this prima donna goes from going to a non-adidas school. Of course, it was just about a month ago where Brown said he was "definitely" going to and adidas school -- see 2:18 of this video. ↗ Brown even said something about if the college was in Switzerland, he'd go there so long as it was an adidas school.
What happened?
None of the kids talk about the shoe stuff as boldly as Brown did. Yet Brown reverses field and commits to a non-adidas school?
This is the one recruit where I would certainly believe there was some behind the scenes, rule violating, deal. Why would this guy go to California?
What's nice here is I just don't care. Like some others, it was at least semi-pleasant to see that it wasn't UK.
@BeddieKU23 I really like the idea of Graham off the bench and Svi starting. Bringing Graham in can change the pace if he comes in for Selden, or he can seamlessly take Mason's place. As you note, I would want one in the game at all times (Mason or Graham). But by mid-season, I bet we get pretty comfortable with Svi with the ball.
@nuleafjhawk Yes, and I was just being dramatic. I should have just used the emoji thing (puke).
@nuleafjhawk Yea, well, given what I see in the streets of some of our cities nowadays, I kind of think not. Thugs.
I saw the title of this thread and literally the only thing that saved my life was the fact that I didn't have bullets for my gun.
I hope he performs well at Cheickxas Cheick this season, Lubbock is tough place to play..
And I heard his favorite meal was Cheicken and dumplings, or was it Cheickiuan Cheicken?
I always liked that candy, you know, Cheickles. Wonder if he does?
@drgnslayr Let's assume that you are right.
But how freaking bad is Traylor? Traylor is perhaps the worst post defender/rebounder (combo) who receives significant minutes I've ever seen at Kansas. He gets pushed around, he's slow to react to penetration, fails to rotate with regularity, his lateral movement is average at best, he gets scored over regularly, and I would argue that he is many times out of position -- the look down at the floor he gives shaking his head that we regularly see. I can't recall ever seeing Traylor stop anyone in the post. I can't recall Traylor blocking the shot of a post player he was defending vs. coming in as a second defender or on a driving player (if so, it's very rare).
Traylor is just a poor player.
Now, I contrast that to Lucas. Lucas does appear to do a number of things that Traylor doesn't. Lucas improved from 2013-14 to 2014-15. Traylor didn't. And Lucas is more skilled.
Traylor is an incredible athlete.
But what is completely apparent -- and I doubt you would deny this -- with few exceptions, Kansas was worse with Traylor in the game this past season. That's my impression from watching every minute, of every game (less a few ESPN overflow minutes from games before us).
@drgnslayr Curious, where did you see that we were interested in Stone? I assume Keith Stone the basketball player, and not Keith Stone from the beer commercial.
Why would Brown, at this stage, just cut KU? It doesn't make a lot of sense.
Theory: Self asked Brown to cut KU from his list.
Why? So that Self had a clear path with Tevin Mack. Mack is planning to make a decision pretty soon. Heck, Self could have gone to Mack and said, "This is how much we want you. We are going to tell Brown that we're out on him. See what happens in the next 24 hours. We'll be cut from his list. That's how much we believe in you."
If Kansas wasn't a real player, then why stay on his list? Staying on Brown's list hurt Kansas with Mack -- same position. I think it is possible that Self asked to be cut from Brown's list so as not to damage efforts with Mack. It makes some sense, given that no other teams were cut. Maybe Self had a conversation with Mack and Brown's recruitment was a hold up? Who knows when Brown will decide.
Mack's mom said the following: “They were all telling me how much they can use him and how much they need him. They all want him. All three said how bad they needed him, especially Kansas. He (Self) said he needed a big scoring guard.”
Maybe getting cut with Brown is a good sign with Mack?
Understand, if this is true, Brown has done us all an incredible favor. This means we only have to deal with one OAD. Our program has taken an OAD only in a position of need.
Kansas does not need Brown. We will have a killer five man perimeter. I would be very happy if we add Tevin Mack, who could then be our 6th perimeter guy. Another non-OAD who could surge into the rotation the next season if guys depart.
It is time to embrace the fact that we have a dream five man perimeter rotation. And not one of them an OAD. Three juniors. Two sophomores. Trust me. This will be all we could hope for. And Brown going elsewhere makes it possible.
@JayHawkFanToo I don't know, I don't recall directing any post on this thread to you. You have injected your thoughts, so I replied. Don't continue it if you choose.
Your response is illusory. You have no idea how many points Cliff gave up being out of position. I have stats on my side. And there is no bending them to try to make a point. They are what they are. You are talking about items outside of stats. Tell me how many points Traylor gave up because of his poor defense, because he can't rebound, and because he gets pushed around underneath? Again, you don't know.
Now, if you have substance, I'm interested. You mentioned conditioning. That's substantive. But this goes back to what I'd said above ... no matter what Cliff's faults, or subjective misgivings, he routinely outperformed Traylor even if he wasn't as conditioned as you claim. Same with basketball IQ. He was significantly better, and it was quite apparent that we were better with Cliff on the floor.
That can certainly co-exist with the likely fact that Cliff failed at some subtle things Self required to stay on the floor, some likely related to basketball IQ and hustle/motor.
@JayHawkFanToo How would you explain the stark difference in numbers and production while in the game?
I want the Greek Freak. And Traylor's biceps.
@sfbahawk I'll be happy to address your multiple questions. But answer me one first -- Was Kansas better with Cliff Alexander in the game, or Jamari Traylor, in 2014-15?
@JayHawkFanToo Easy now. Maybe Michigan should have just left him on scholarship so he might get an opportunity for scrub time, given his horrific injuries and personal issues he has fought through? Maybe. Maybe not. Debatable for sure.
But hey, why not pile on Michigan? They're the enemy right now. Maybe we can orchestrate an academic scandal or something? Or maybe the campus is racist? Or maybe they don't like homo .. er, gays? Whatever.
Heck, they throw that kid off the team to make room for an OAD? Cast him into the street with only his back pack and scholarship? At the very least, as @wissoxfan83 infers, it sounds like that. Works for me.
Everyone wants Brown. A little dirty pool at this stage can't hurt.
I heard Beilein was leaving for the NBA. I heard he hates one and dones. I heard he watches guys shower through a hidden camera. He got McGeary hurt didn't he? Any other rumors?
@benshawks08 "If the No. 3 recruit in the country this year couldn't displace Lucas/Traylor, I'm not sure we can count on the 2 freshman bigs this year to do it. I sure hope so, because we need an upgrade in size (Traylor) and athleticism (Lucas) at the 5."
You read my mind. There are a handful of things that really worry me about Self, and this is one.
No one will ever tell me that Self was right in playing Traylor over Cliff. Cliff was just better. Cliff gave us a better chance to win. I won't debate that.
What irritated Self were things that Cliff did .. out of position, slow to the ball at times, screwing up running the offense, etc. Irritations.
With all of that, Cliff was still better than Traylor.
That's my concern. Self lets irritations overshadow the big picture. I'm not saying that they are little things, or he shouldn't be irritated ... but a big picture analysis of "Are we better with Cliff or with Traylor?"
That question is unequivocally answered in favor of Cliff.
Like others have said though, Diallo appears different than Cliff. But I didn't suspect Cliff would be scolded for motor issues at this time last season.
Here is Cliff's ESPN scouting report. No way that this would lead one to conclude his failures that occurred in Self's eyes. Again, I'm not saying they weren't legitimate at all. It's just that we can't truly predict Diallo won't face the same issues. Look at the last line under "strengths."
Strengths:
Alexander is a big mobile post that is a terror on the glass. He snatches everything that comes off in his area with force and is not afraid to put his body on his opponent. He also was active and blocked shots in and out of his area. Alexander did a great job with screen and roll situations as well. He set wide screens and rolled hard to the rim which he dunked when he received the pocket pass. He also showed a nice hook over his left shoulder. Alexander ran the floor and played with good urgency at all times.
Weaknesses:
Alexander must continue to work to stay in shape so consistent work on strength and conditioning is a must. He must also build his back to the basket moves and learn to face and hit the jumper to about 15 feet and his game goes to the next level.
Bottom Line:
This big fella is in the argument for best player/prospect in the country. Big, strong and athletic, Alexander is productive every time he steps on the court. Some of the athletic plays he makes dunking the ball and blocking shots are not seen from any other player in high school currently.
Unfortunately, Nike owns Converse of course. Wonder if we could pool our resources and steal it .. er, buy it back? Maybe we could tap into @jaybate-1.0's war chest?
Thanks .. right back at ya. Rock Cheick, indeed!
@jaybate-1.0 Uh, no. Just hoping for it. I'd let you know if I thought you were wrong. You know that by now, don't you?
Is everything shoes? Say it ain't so.
I'm like a yo-yo on this subject. One day I buy the strong assertions, the next day I don't.
I feel like an undecided voter. Mushy. Without conviction.
Can we bring back Converse? ↗
Assuming no Brown, Lucas and Graham do start for the summer games.
But during the season, Svi and Diallo (after Traylor starts the first few games).
@DoubleDD You said, "He can leave after one year if he gives KU a Championship next year."
I take it you mean NCAA championship.
And that is really it, isn't it? Unless you win the NCAA championship, it is a waste of time and resources. Because without a championship (a real one), you could be getting someone else ready for the next year's run. If you win the NCAA title like Duke, it's all worth it.
I would add that winning conference and being a good team is important too. But Self has proven he can do that without OADs. Meaning, we don't need OADs to win conference and be a good team. Of course, we don't need them to win an NCAA title because Self already did that without one OAD.
But in the case with Diallo, if we couldn't have that next tier guy, at least it will take minutes away from our depth in the post.
@justanotherfan Did you happen to watch AW3 in the first part of 2013-14? Did you review his stats during the time frame where he got regular minutes? I think he stacked up very well.
He was not a starter here for the same reason Traylor started .. Self's choice.
All that provides an insight into what Self is thinking. Traylor is a player that is way down on the talent food chain, and I would say flat out that he is bad most of the time. Yet Self started him.
If Wiggins wouldn't have come to Kansas, AW3 would have been the starter.
The question is whether he could have become a Travis Releford player. I think he would have scored more, and been a lesser defensive player than Releford. But certainly a guy you could win a national title with at the 3.
It's all speculation, to be sure. But I think it is really unwise for anyone to assume that the parade of Wiggins, Oubre, and potentially Brown would have been better for Kansas than three seasons of AW3.
We revere Travis Releford as a Kansas basketball player. We are interested in Wiggins mainly because of his NBA exploits. There is a big difference.
@Statmachine It is depth. However, Traylor/Lucas/Mickelson aren't Svi and Greene, from a talent perspective. That is what I'm referring to. High talent guys sitting don't sit well, so to speak. It's why CF transferred. It's why AW3 transferred.
I would suggest that our lower talent threesome are a different type of discussion. And if one transferred or left, if they could, we wouldn't have any concerns with it.
Svi or Greene, I think, would be much different.
Good work on the updates during the recruiting. Really appreciated.
@justanotherfan Ah, you are being tempted by the OAD Kool-Aid.
@justanotherfan If Greene isn't playing, sure. There is room for 5 and only 5 perimeter players in the rotation.
@FarSideHawk I agree too. Big Greeks good.
If Brown comes to Kansas, then what is the fallout? Greene transfers or redshirts? Svi leaves?
How in the world does a player of the caliber of Svi or Greene risk being the 6th perimeter guy (odd man out)?
Remember, we need to view the process -- our approach -- irrespective of whether Diallo committed. Is this how Kansas should live?
But for 2015-16, this is huge. Would have hated to be the standing when the music stopped.
If Self truly closed the Diallo deal, that was as clutch as a grand slam home run, two outs, in the bottom of the ninth, down by three. No one else on the board. Big need in the post. Home town team pulled out all the stops. UK yappin' at his heels. Please ... let ... this ... end.
Could Self deliver a Kevin Young? Better yet, a Georgios Papagiannis?
@BeddieKU23 And you are very right. If we run the same offense, the same high/low, the same throw it into the post and hope for a basket -- with this post personnel -- barring significant improvement from the post personnel -- we'll get the same result as last season. It astonishingly took Self months to adjust, and then when he did adjust, it lent itself to worse results.
My perhaps naïve optimism is that this will not occur again.
@joeloveshawks - Good post this morning. I would toss this in .. you never know how things will work out. @FarSideHawk is right. 2012 really looked like it could be a disaster. The thinnest Self team ever. We snag/steal (depending upon one's interpretation) Kevin Young in June prior to 2012. Perhaps the most crucial off season transaction.
I refuse the doom and gloom, too, as @KUSTEVE said.
Until I see Self trying to feed the post over and over again, and having little success next season, we have every reason to be optimistic. We have a coach who just went through a difficult season scheme-wise, ended up running a four out/one in scheme he probably only envisioned in his nightmares, and got bumped early in the tourney for the third straight season. I may be naïve here, but I sense that this past season may inspire a little more flexibility from coach Self.
And isn't the lack of flexibility really the only significant fault we (most of us) find with him?
Optimism is a good thing. If Diallo goes elsewhere, we move on. The sun comes up. Good, bad, indifferent. It just needs to be over.
Right now, Diallo is the most important recruit. But in the final analysis, he might not be. We have some time for this to play out.
I say we pitch in and buy Georgios Papagiannis a Mercedes, though. Would that help? I don't know if that's what @drgnslayr was thinking about.
Prediction: Ingram to Duke; Diallo to St. John's. And Kansas basketball survives and thrives.