Lawson is a late second rounder at best and that won't change next year either. Improving his 3 point shooting might boost him to early to mid 2nd round status next year.
Texas Hawk 10
9941 posts
With Garrett's driving, he needs to get to 70% otherwise teams are going to hammer him to stop the And 1's.
Vick, don't pass to the guy being guarded by multiple players!
Why did Vick pass it to someone being trippled teamed?
Not sure how I feel about that press if that's the shot the defense is going to leave open.
@Crimsonorblue22 Don't think I could make it up there in time tonight otherwise I would.
@mayjay Making the tge wrong play and still turning out well doesn't change it from a bad play to a good play, it means the person got lucky that he was bailed out.
If Dedric hits that put back, it wouldn't change that Vick made a bad play, it just would've meant he got bailed out be Dedric and KU would've had a lucky win over WVU instead of a bad loss.
@mayjay Even if Vick makes that 3, it's still the wrong decision in that situation. KU didn't need a 3 in that situation, they needed a 2. In that situation, you need someone who can drive to the basket which would have dictated either Dotson or Garrett needed the ball in their hands first. If the defense collapses and Vick is open for a kick out 3, I could live with that as well.
What Vick did was probably the last option in Self's mind in that situation and as a senior, Vick has to be aware of the situation, but he's shown throughout his career that he has a pretty low BB IQ, and that he doesn't deal with criticism well.
That second trait is why Self fell on the grenade for Vick. The blame for that last possession is in reality about 50/50 between Self and the players.
Self screwed up because those last couple of possessions were just chaos and Self needed to call a timeout to settle them down. Vick screwed up by not calling a timeout as soon as he crossed half court so Self could set something up. Dotson screwed up because he really should've called a timeout as soon as WVU made that basket since Self didn't. That's something Dotson will learn as he gets older. Vick should've known better and Self should've known better.
I do suspect that Self is glad this happened internally because it seemed like the players were running the show out there and not Self down the stretch. KU's last few possessions were just as ugly as could be and now Self can show them video of what happens when you don't do what you've practiced and stay disciplined on offense.
Hopefully this turns out like the OU game last year where Self let KU try and do it themselves and KU seemed to turn the corner after that game and they started playing much better overall from that game forward. We'll see how KU responds tonight though.
@Crimsonorblue22 Even with that play, the Chiefs still had a shot win the game later on. Dee Ford didn't pay attention to where he was lined up though and negated what would have been the game winning INT.
@mayjay Point's the same, run the FG unit out that early so if there's a bad snap, there's time to run a second FG attempt.
BShark said:
dylans said:
Why Andy didn’t take one more shot at the end zone before kicking is beyond me.
There were soooo many things in this game, but this was a big one.
The logic behind that strategy is in case something bad happens on the snap, Chiefs can spike it and kick again. You don't see it happen a lot anymore, but that's the logic behind that decision.
Chiefs better hope Mahomes doesn't want that $200 million contract that is being rumored. A huge reason why the Patriots have been able to sustain their run for so long is because of Brady taking far less money than he could so the Pats can sign other players to fill holes on their team.
Aaron Rodgers contract is a huge burden for the Packers because they can't sign enough quality players to put a good supporting cast around him.
That's the biggest lesson the Chiefs need to take from New England if they want to be next in line to take over from New England as the next dominant AFC team.
@jayballer73 I would advise Doke to leave now while he still has some NBA value. Another setback next season and his NBA potential is zero.
@jayballer73 He shouldn't be, but we'll have to wait and see if he's hellbent on it or not. Hopefully he takes the Wayne Selden route instead of the Josh Selby route.
@Kcmatt7 Self knows exactly how to coach young guards. They just don't become finished products right away. Mason and Graham each took until their third years to become elite guards.
@mayjay Grimes took a bad angle and put himself in a bad position on that play. When you put yourself in a bad position on defense, bad things happen and Grimes was in a bad position on defense a lot today.
It'll end up being Dotson eventually. His issue though is that he doesn't have anyone to teach him how to be a leader at this level. That was also why Mason and Graham struggled early on as well.
When Self got here, he already had Aaron Miles who learned how to lead from Hinrich. Russell Robinson came in and learned from Miles how to be the leader. Robinson in turned showed Sherron Collins the ropes who then mentored Tyshawn Taylor. This is where the breakdown in that line happened. In 2010, KU landed Josh Selby and Royce Woolridge. Selby obviously had his issues and should've stayed another season at least. Woolridge was always a project player and never panned out. Woolridge was likely supposed to take the reigns from Taylor after the 2011-2012 season as either a junior or RS sophomore.
The 2011 class was a disaster because Self for whatever reason never had a plan for the Morris twins leaving early even though it wasn't much of a secret that was a possibility. Still Self landed Naadir Tharpe out of that class after it became apparent Woolridge was never going to develop and Tharpe was supposed to be next after Taylor at the point. The transition from Taylor to Tharpe is where the line of PG's at KU was broken because of Tharpe's issues.
In 2012, KU didn't land a PG and 2013 is when KU landed Mason who spent one year under Thapre who wasn't a leader in any capacity and KU lost 10 games that year despite having Wiggins, Embiid, and Selden as well.
When Mason took over as a sophomore with Graham as a freshman, that's when KU had was really hurt because Mason and Graham were having to learn for themselves how to lead a high level college basketball because they didn't have anyone to mentor them. Mason was under Tharpe for a season, but when the guy who's supposed to show you how to be a leader gets kicked off the team, Mason didn't have anyone to teach him.
The 2015 class ended up a disaster with Diallo and Bragg not making it past year 2 (or 1 in Diallo's case) along with Vick who might go down as the biggest disappointment among 4 players under Self along with Elijah Johnson (I don't share you opinion on EJ and never will).
As Mason and Graham keep learning and getting better, there should've been another PG in either the 2016 or 2017 class to develop and take the reigns after Graham left in 2018, but it didn't happen so Self had to get what he could which led to bringing in Charlie Moore in 2017 as a transfer and hoping he could land PG 2018 to develop. Obviously, Self landed Dotson in 2018 who's the highest rated PG Self has landed since Sherron Collins and looks like he'll be a great PG one day and already is the best freshman PG KU has had since Collins.
The problem though is Dotson doesn't have a mentor to show him how to take control of his team. Dotson is learning on the job how to lead his team and there will be bumps along the way. KU lost 9 games in Mason's first year as a starter. This group has 3 wins over current top 15 teams all on neutral courts so the potential is definitely there whenever the light comes on.
Hopefully this core comes back in tact next season and gets 3 years together because I could see a lineup in 2020-2021 of Dotson, Grimes, Agbaji, Garrett, and McCormack being a serious title threat. It's also not unreasonable or unrealistic to see that line up in a couple of seasons with 4 juniors and a senior in the starting line up.
This group has huge upside, they just have to go through the same growing pains Mason and Graham and that group had to go through because there isn't anyone to show this group how to lead. Hopefully Self lands another top level PG in the 2020 class that can sit behind Dotson for a tear and learn under a junior Dotson before taking over in either 2021 or 2022.
BShark said:
BigBad said:
They just cant shoot. It really is that simple.
I think passing and team chemistry are bigger issues. Vick going nutso in the non-con helped mask that somewhat.
Agreed hugely about this team's passing ability. 6 assists on 24 made FG's today. There's too much one on one with this team and they're not good enough to do that.
This team isn't patient enough to work the ball to the third or fourth side to get an open driving lane. They want to drive into double teams and that leads to bad things. That's a huge part of the adjustment to college basketball. Just about every player was the best player on the court by a mile in HS and now when they go against players equal to or better than them, they don't have the tools to compensate.
This is Grimes biggest issue. HS basketball in Houston is weak. For being the 4th biggest city, there's very little elite basketball talent coming out of this city. Combine that with Grimes playing for one of the more affluent schools in the city in a district with no competition that rarely puts teams deep in the state tournament, Grimes and with and against crap in HS. I went to a couple of his games last season because I work about 20 minutes for his HS, his teammates were trash players. I think College Park lost in the 2nd or 3rd round of the playoffs last year despite having the best player in the state.
It's a huge adjustment for these kids and we saw it when Mason and Graham first got here and learned how to play and win and we're seeing now with Dotson. Mason and Graham didn't have upperclassmen mentors and neither does Dotson and that really slows the development of this team.
Vick isn't a positive influence overall as we're seeing the same issues this year that have kept him from becoming an elite player and it's his BBIQ. Tyshawn had Collins, Collins had Robinson, and Robinson had Miles to learn from. Mason had sophomore Tharpe and Graham was second fiddler until his senior year. Dotson has Charlie Moore to learn from. I would seriously consider redshirting McBride next year and letting him learn and keep him and Dotson 2 years apart in eligibility and then sign another PG when McBride takes the reigns to develop.
@Crimsonorblue22 I didn't, but it doesn't surprise me. This is a selfish team for the most part that doesn't share the ball well so I'm not surprised they butchered chop as badly as they did.
I have a feeling there was a lot of this team not doing what Self wanted to do and following scouting reports so I suspect Self let them do it on their own and they couldn't. Should be a good teaching film in the video room tonight or tomorrow. Hopefully it turns out like the Hack-a-Doke game in Norman last year and is where this team turns a corner.
Young team going through growing pains and Self letting them make those mistakes. This team has learn to close out games at some point on the road and this is the only to do so is to be in the situations. Frustrating when they can't do it, but they have to figure it out on their own at some point though.
Why was Garrett taking so many shots down the stretch?
That's the biggest thing that bothers me about this one.
Silvio was in Waco. He's been traveling with the team all season so this isn't an indication one way or the other.
@truehawk93 That team was too young to do much in that tournament though.
@BShark This one isn't surprising though. Kid was a very good player, but could never stay healthy. Seemed like he missed a huge chunk of time every year. Moving on and finishing his degree seems like the best option for him at this point in his life and career.
Did he ever actually play against KU or was he injured every time KU played TCU?
@drgnslayr Even before reading that article, the only freshman PG I could think of that had that level of impact was Sherron. I get to the end and there's the comparison to Sherron.
@Gorilla72 West Virginia is 8-9 this season. They are really bad team this year and they're going to be without Konate again I believe so they won't have any rim protection. This is Huggy's worst team in a long time.
@Kcmatt7 I'll believe when I see it when it comes to this replacing the RPI. The the RPI rankings still exist mean they're going to be used and the selection committee members aren't likely changing their ways any time soon. I still think the RPI will be used more heavily than the NET system in March.
@Kcmatt7 NET still has some big flaws as well. Houston at 8, Nebraska at 10 immediately stand out to me.
Other teams that are nowhere near what their NET ranking is are LSU, Purdue, Louisville, Wisconsin, Nevada, San Francisco, Florida, Texas, Liberty, Lipscomb, and Seton Hall among the top 50 teams. Nevada is in there because of 23 is way too low compared to how good they actually are.
I'm not saying Houston is a bad team, but they're not 8th and Nebraska isn't the 10th best team.
I agree it's better than the RPI, but it still has some major flaws in its system that need to be worked out before the RPI should be kicked to the curb.
@Crimsonorblue22 I'd take both of them back in a heartbeat if that's what they choose to do.
If I'm giving them NBA advice though, I would advise Doke to leave while he still has NBA prospects. With Dedric, I would advise him that his draft status wouldn't change if he left early or stayed another year. I would ask him how much he wants to win a national title, how much he enjoys Kansas, and how much he enjoys playing with his brother. Next season would his last opportunity to play with KJ in all likelihood. KU would also be a pretty strong title contender next season with this group if they only lose Vick from this core next season.
I would tell Doke to leave and Dedric that he should base his decision on how much he enjoys the college experience and playing with KJ.
@Crimsonorblue22 A lot of it depends in how his ligaments heal and if there are any complications with that. The much more concerning issue Inwould have with Doke long term is his back and ankles. Once you sprain an ankle, it becomes much easier to do again and Doke said he was having back issues last season which is highly concerning for someone his age because of his size. It likely means he'll have significant back issues fairly early in his career/life which could derail his career.
@Kcmatt7 Doke is a still projected as a mid 2nd round pick. Another major injury and he's not sniffing the NBA even at his age. Dedric will be a late 2nd round/undrafted guy whether he leaves this year or next. Doke has a lot more to lose potentially by coming back than Dedric does.
Only way KJ would transfer is if Dedric goes pro. I don't see Dedric leaving early though so I don't see KJ transferring out. I could see Moore transfer though I think it could also be possible he waits a year to be a grad transfer.
I also don't see Doke coming back. At this point, I think it would be in his best interest to start his pro career ASAP so he can make some money because if he suffers another major injury next year, he may not have a pro future anywhere.
The new development with Silvio is the wild card right now. If he's ruled eligible, having Silvio and Dedric would take some pressure off of Hurt to be an instant impact player if he comes to KU.
HighEliteMajor said:
Duke will be a #1 seed. We know it right now. They are probably the best team overall as well.
I don't buy Duke being the best team overall a last night is why. They have no depth to deal with injuries or foul issues and Tre Jones misses the rest of the season, they won't make a run. Even with Jones, I don't think they win it this year.
Michigan would be my pick right now to win the title even against a completely healthy Duke team.
I would also put money on Tennesee and Gonzaga before Duke right now.
Duke is obviously one of the elite teams in the country and I wouldn't be shocked if they did win the title this year, I just don't think they're the best team in the country right now because of their lack of depth.
I also wouldn't have them being a 1 seed as a lock right now either. With the Tre Jones injury, I could see them drop a 2-3 more games. I don't see them beating Virginia on Saturday and I could see them drop 3 of 4 to NC State, UNC, Syracuse, and VTech next month if Jones is still out or less than 100%.
That would drop them to the 2 line most likely with UVA, Tennessee, Michigan, and Gonzaga getting the 1 seeds. I think Duke, Kansas, Michigan St., and Nevada end up as the 2 seeds this year.
@jayballer73 KU Women's basketball has only made 2 NCAA Tournament appearances combined since Marion Washington retired after the 2004 season and even her last 4 seasons were really bad.
People don't realize just how bad Kansas women's basketball has been this century. They have not had a winning conference record or finished in the top half of the league this century. This is a program with a long history of underachieving and Schneider has gone through a full recruiting cycle and has failed to make this team a top half of the league team. After this season, there needs to be a change because Schneider just isn't working out. KU has a .255 winning percentage this century in B12 play. There's no reason that this program should be this bad outside of apathy among the administration.
Just about every other elite men's basketball team has developed a very competitive women's program as well except for Kansas. Jeff Long needs to make some decisions about the non-revenue sports like women's basketball and baseball who have been underachieving for a very long time without recent coaching changes.
@jayballer73 ISU was a blowout, KU was down 15+ most of the second half and only got it to single digits at the very end.
Texas Tech was a bad loss period. That's the type of game the women have to win to show any meaningful progress. Beating KSU is nice because it's a rivalry game, but this team isn't much better than last year.
@Crimsonorblue22 No, and the B12 outside of Baylor, Texas, and ISU, aren't very good overall. They may get up to 5 in the tournament, but the 4th and 5th teams would be pretty low seeds. KU is better than last year, but they still aren't very good and probably end up with 6 or less B12 wins this year.
Schneider needs to go because KU just isn't that much better than when he took over. The only real difference is that KU can beat cupcakes now whereas they didn't do that his first year.
@BShark My personal take on Charlie is that he'll be back next year and be a grad transfer after 2020.
Grimes seems to have a more level head on him tha. Selby did so I think he'll be back.
KU already has two committed with the two guaranteed openings. I think KU ends up losing two more with Silvio and Doke. I just don't see Silvio ever getting cleared and I think he leaves late summer once that becomes the outcome. I think Doke leaves to start his pro career otherwise he might not have one if he comes back next year and has injury issues again.
KU ends up anywhere between 2 and 6 openings and I think the number ends up being 4.
@jayhawkcsg Dave out of position a lot yesterday, and that play you specifically mentioned was absolutely his man. In a press, the 5 has under the basket in case someone leaks out.
Most of his other issues were being slow on switches and other issues like that that aren't as noticeable to a casual viewer.
@dylans The Bragg issue may have been suspicious sounding from the start, but video evidence is what confirmed Bragg was innocent in that just like video is what condemned Rice and Hunt. That's what my point was, there was video evidence in all 3 of those situations that either showed the accused was innocent or guilty and if guilty, how bad it really was to the point that neither will play in the NFL again.
@Big-Clyde52 I don't see Silvio ever playing college basketball again.
@BShark He could've gone and made $4-5 million a year after two years ago. I think he messed up not taking the UCLA job awhile back when they were interested.
Here's my observations from inside the arena yesterday.
Agabaji looked like he may have an even bigger impact on this team than Silvio had last year.
Without Doke, this is a bad rebounding team. Dedric is good rebounder for a 4, but he's not good when he's the lone post player. This is a 30+ point win if KU rebounded well yesterday. When Grimes (6) and Dotson (5) are your leading rebounders, that's not good.
Grimes needs to come back and he may end up being a 4 year guy. He's a poor man's Wayne Selden at this point.
Marcus Garrett does not get enough credit for what he contributes to this team. He's not a shooter and that will never be a strength of his and that's fine. He does other things on offense to contribute. He sets good screens, he protects the ball, makes good passes, and gets others in good spots.
One thing Insaw a couple of times that I think Self should do more to take advantage of Garrett's lack of scoring is to stock Garrett in the corner when he doesn't have ball in his hands. If a defender forgets about him or helps too far away, send Garrett to the basket for an easy lob. I still think Garrett should be running point more to get Dotson off the ball to take advantage of his shooting because he's the best pure shooter KU has.
Lagerald Vick was great for most of the game. It was good to see him making shots so hopefully he's getting on another hot streak. His defense on King McClure was also way better than expected as well. His last few minutes were bad though. He should not be on the floor when teams are pressuring KU because he crumbles the brighter the spotlight.
Dotson is not going to be a KU for 4 years. His on court leadership is getting better. He definitely still makes his share of freshman mistakes and likely will throughout the year.
Dedric was Dedric on offense. A big part of the rebounding issues are because of how Dedric was playing defense. He was going for blocks and steals in the paint all game and ended up 5 of each. Those blocks and steals came at the expense of his rebounding though as he only had 3 of them. As great as it was to see Dedric get those blocks and steals, I don't rebounding tradeoff was worth it though.
KJ gave some good minutes in the first half and I'd like to see him play some more because I think it's a matter of time before his offense get clicking and he can become a post scoring option off the bench for KU.
Mitch needs to play alongside either Dedric or McCormack. He's a great weak side player on both ends. He's gelreat at helping and getting blocks and rebounds from the weak side. On offense, he's good on the weak side as well getting easy lay ups and lobs when his man goes to double a second post.
David McCormack has a very bright future at KU, but he showed yesterday why he's not getting more minutes yesterday. Both of Baylor's big runs yesterday started when McCormack was on the floor. He was so far out of position on defense yesterday that he's why Baykir closed the gap midway through the first half and when Baylor began their comeback at the end of the game. He was also totally useless on offense as well. The two spots he came in for yesterday were ideal situations to try and get him extended minutes, but he was so terrible yesterday he couldn't stay out there otherwise KU would've ended up losing.
Charlie Moore is just not a good fit for this team. He's a terrible defender, a ball hog on offense, and is out of control on most of his drives. I really wouldn't be shocked to see him transfer out either after this season or next year as a grad transfer.
This is a good team with an insanely high ceiling as the neutral court wins over Michigan St., Tennessee, and Marquette show. This is also a really young team that will have some hick ups and poor games like the end of the ASU and the entire ISU games shown. This isn't a title team this year, the consistency just isn't there this year due largely to youth, but should be a favorite next year as almost the entire core of this team will be back next year.
Marshall should've gotten out when he could. He effed that one up and now likely won't be looked at for a bigger job in the future.
Damn good effort for 36 minutes today, last 4 overall were worse than the ISU game.
approxinfinity said:
Lagerald Vick, Player of the Game.
Player of 36 minutes. That last 4 minutes might have been his worst stretch of the season.
Vick back in, shit
Dotson gone, bring in Moore over Vick now
@Bwag Garrett scoreless isn't a big deal. That's not his role. He's a screen setter and gets others to their spots. He's a facilitator on offense.
Garrett jogged off at halftime and looked fine. Hopefully he plays second half because I don't want to see Moore out there again.
@Bwag Baylor scored first basket of the game