@Fightsongwriter Can't blame Self for feeling that way this time. Whitman didn't tell Self face to face, he just left and told Self by phone after he was already home. I hope Self blocks Whitman from transferring wherever until Whitman comes back for a face to face exit meeting like whoever it was a few years ago Self temporarily blocked from leaving until the kid did it the right way. This really isn't a great look for Whitman because it really does come across as him quitting on the team.
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@mayjay San Antonio, Minnesota, and New York all have the assets to make a deal happen. SA wants to dump Aldridge, and Knicks have been wanting to dump Carmelo and Porzingis. I think a 3 team deal with New York, Cleveland, and Houston could be done. New York gets Kyrie, Houston gets Carmelo, Cleveland gets Porzingis. Kevin Love, Ryan Anderson, and draft picks would also be invlovled, but I think a deal like that could get done if those three teams really want to make it happen.
If Kyrie goes to the Spurs, Cleveland becomes the 4th best team in the league at vest behind GS, SA, and Houston.
Self doesn't sound too optimistic about being able to fill Whitman's scholarship this year.
@HawkChamp Bagely would start over Preston from day 1.
@mayjay Instincts are a big part of along with natural skill. By natural skill, I mean what somebody is good at without working at that skill to develop and refine. Some players are naturally gifted dribblers, some are naturally great passers, and so on.
Landed Lucas for example. He is naturally a very stone handed player as in he bobbled a lot of passes and rebounds in his career. Other players have naturally soft hands that could reign in the most difficult passes and rebounds with ease.
PG's do tend to be the shortest guy on the team because rmthe PG us going to have the ball in his hands the most and less room there is between a player's hand and the floor, the lower the odds of a defender being able to time a dribble and steal the ball.
James Harden was essentially the Rockets PG last year and led the league in assists because if his vision and passing ability. He was also among the league leaders in turnovers because he got his pocket picked so to speak a lot last year because he's 6-6 and was often guarded by guys several inches shorter.
Natural ability is also why Frank Mason was/is considered a a great scorer. His natural instinct with the ball is to drive to the rim and create contact. If I'm comparing Frank Mason on offense to anybody in the NBA, it's James Harden because they do a lot of the same things with the ball I their hands and have a lot of the same instincts.
@BeddieKU23 I want to know how in the world Wiggins became the worst defender in the NBA with Thibs as his coach? I know it's based off advanced metrics, but still that's embarrassing for Wiggins considering what he showed at KU as a defender.
I think KU does have one thing they can use to help with Bagley. I believe Bagley and Josh Jackson were prep teammates before Bagley transferred to Sierra Canyon. The prep school they were at had NCAA accreditation issues which caused both to transfer away Jackson's senior year in 2015-16, but I do believe they were prep teammates in the Phoenix area in 2014-15 which was Bagley's freshman year of HS and JJ's junior year.
That'd be something worth using to try and get Bagley to KU for a visit and possible commitment.
@JayHawkFanToo I don't disagree that Garrett is a good enough PG to run the show in a pinch, I just don't see the need for him too barring injuries. Graham and Newman will do the majority of the lead guard stuff this year with Garrett as their primary back up. With both likely gone next year, Charlie Moore becomes the lead guard and Marcus Garrett likely slides I to the starting line up as the off ball guard. Factor in a potential PG recruit in 2018 and Markese Jacobs already signed for 2019 and KU appears to have the lead guard situation on lock down through the 2022-23 seasons unless Jacobs exceeds expectations and leaves early.
@Kcmatt7 An LOI is not a legally binding agreement. Preston could still leave and play elsewhere without sitting out because fall classes haven't started yet. That's why Frankamp had to sit out at WSU, he left KU in September after classes had started.
@Lulufulu Not if Lightfoot is ahead of him. The 4th big under Self doesn't tend to more than a few minutes per game.
@SkinnyKansasDude Probably, Whitman wasn't going to start and was probably behind Lightfoot at this point as well. If he was the 4th big, he wasn't playing much which PT at a bigger program was his reason for leaving W&M.
If you bring in Bagley at this point, you risk alienating Preston as well which wouldn't be good for KU.
@HawkChamp KU appears to be a strong favorite for Grimes at this point.
@BeddieKU23 and @BShark I agree with @Kcmatt7 and think you two are being way too rigid on what position guys can play.
Here's what I see and why I think back up PG is the only real need in the back court.
Charlie Moore: 1
Marcus Garrett: 1-3
Lagerald Vick: 2-3
Sam Cunliffe: 3
KJ Lawson: 3-Stretch 4
Moore is the only natural PG for 2018 as Garrett can handle the ball, but is probably more suited to an off ball role playing next to a PG.
This is why Grimes is the top target. He can play the 1 or 2 and fills that glaring hole at the back up PG role that KU needs for 2018.
@Kcmatt7 KJ is not necessarily starting at the 3 in 2018. I see him playing more of a stretch 4 role next year because it's been very quiet in recruiting as far as post players go for KU. I think Self is viewing KJ similarly to how he used Jackson last year because KJ can guard 1-4 and play on the perimeter and create match up issues like Jackson did. I'm not saying KJ is as good as Jackson, but with what's returning in 2018, KJ as a stretch 4 is a logical personnel move, especially is the staff is determined to sign 2 guards this year which would put them at 9 guards and wings for 2018 and that equals a lot of people not playing. Playing KJ as a stretch 4 opens up some garbage minutes while easing some potential front court depth issues.
I'll also say that center is not an urgent need either, at least as far as a starter goes. Dedric is a beast in the low post and KU would be just fine in 2018 with him anchoring the low post with Preston, KJ, or Lightfoot next to him at the other forward spot. KU has had plenty of seasons without a starting center and been just fine. D-Jax was a 4, Markeiff was a 4, T-Rob was a 4, Tarik Black was a 4. KU has had plenty of 4's anchor the low post over the years and Dedric Lawson down low won't be any different.
@BShark Garrett is a combo. The New player video that was made by KU has him as a PG.
The only way a starting spot is available in the back court in 2018 is if Vick leaves, otherwise it's going to be Moore, Vick, and Garrett starting.
@BeddieKU23 It appears Grimes is who Self covets most because he can play the 1 and 2 and back up those spots in 2018 and slide into the starting line up next to Moore and Garrett in 2019.
Vick is the question mark and why Self is staying some of these guys. Don't expect any guards that are early commits to commit to KU other than Grimes because of Vick's status.
If it becomes obvious that Vick is staying, expect KU to back off any guard who isn't a long term project in 2018 because of the lack of PT that will be available in 2018.
There's no reason why Vick should leave this year based on what his anticipated role in 2018 will be, but you never know and Self is preparing for that possibility which means keeping in contact with some 2018 guards.
Self is just preparing for the worst case scenario in terms of players leaving, could be as high as 7 if we're honest, Newman and Azubuike are assumed gone and Vick and Preston have been mentioned as possible early exits. Self is just preparing for the maximum so he doesn't have a repeat of 2011 when he failed to prepare for the possibility of the Morris twins leaving early and he had to scramble to get some guys then.
All Self is doing is due diligence on targeting players right now to prepare for the possibility of 6 or 7 leaving when the reality is probably only 4 or 5 are gone all that's available for 2018 is back up minutes at PG and the front court and even front court minutes are questionable to be available.
@BeddieKU23 Who leaves the program if that happens? A back up PG is the only real need for 2018 at this point as far as the back court goes. Moore, Vick, Garrett, and Cunliffe are all going to be around. There's also KJ Lawson as an option at the 3 depending on recruiting.
Where's the room for 3 more guards in 2018? There's no way Moore, Cunliffe, or Lawson leave because they aren't graduate transfer eligible yet and would you really want to lose Garrett after one year? Also, what guard recruits of the ones being mentioned would even want to come here to likely sit in the bench in 2018?
@wissox How do road games better prepare a team for the NCAA Tournament over neutral court games? The NCAA Tournament is played in neutral courts so why is stuff like the Champions Classic and Maui, Battle 4 Atlantis, and other preseason tournaments inferior to games at Rupp, Cameron, Pauley, and other road environments?
@KUSTEVE All you did was mention Wiggins and team ranking and Jackson and team ranking. Nowhere did you blame the coaching staff.
Here's your line on Jackson.
"2016- KU signs Josh Jackson, the number 1 recruit in America. Team defense collapses, leading to E8 ouster. Team ranked 24th def eff- the worst in Self’s KU history."
Where's the blame on the staff. Whether you intend to or not, tying Jackson's and Wiggin's names to the team ranking comes across as you blaming those guys for the defensive failures when those guys were in reality the best defenders on those teams.
I'm a person who believes a zebra can't change his stripes and with the years of evidence of poor defense, I don't believe it'll change at this point.
@KUSTEVE There's only player left from that group two years ago and he's the second worst defender of that group.
You don't put 3 subpar perimeter defenders on the court, which KU is likely to do unless Vick starts over Svi, and expect good perimeter defense. Graham and Svi have been here for 3 years now and we suddenly expect a huge change from the past 3 years? Sorry, I don't buy that.
Don't even try to blame Jackson for last year's team being crap on defense. Jackson was far and away the best defender on the team last year.
@BeddieKU23 Length doesn't equal a good defender, Svi is proof of that. A 6-8 wing should be a good defender, but he sucks. Newman has an entire season's worth of evidence in a worse league than the Big 12 that he's not a great defender playing for a coach who has produced a lot of great defensive teams including one that held KU to 55 points in an E8 game.
Garrett and Preston are the two unknowns and freshman, especially in the paint, have a history of struggling to adjust to the college game under Self.
Maybe they prove me wrong, but I just don't see the evidence to suggest this team gets significantly better on defense from last year even with Self as a coach.
I think the 2018 team is shaping up to be a monster defensive team with the Lawson's becoming eligible, but I just don't see it with this year's group.
@BeddieKU23 Why do the roster changes mean the defense will be better? We know how 3 of the 5 rotation players are on defense in KU uniforms and Vick is the only good defender. Graham and Svi are average at best. Newman is basically replacing Mason and based on his year at MSU, that's a downgrade.
Marcus Garrett is the only real question mark on the perimeter. It's unlikely Cunliffe sees many minutes this year because of when he's eligible.
In the front court, Azubuike is a better shot blocker than Lucas, I don't know if I would call him an upgrade to Lucas yet. The 4 is probably going to be a down grade no matter who's there because Jackson was a very good defender and could guard 1-4 With ease. We don't know what Preston will be, we don't know how Whitman will translate to Big 12 ball. Unless Lightfoot has gotten much stronger, he's still not going to be strong enough to guard in the post.
I just don't see this team being that much better on defense this year if they're even better this year.
Perry Ellis signed a deal to play with the Sydney Kings of the NBL in Australia.
@JayHawkFanToo Top 20 is Sweet 16 caliber, not Final Four caliber.
@JayHawkFanToo The Big 12 gets those rankings by not having many bad teams. The middle of the pack is solid and where the computer rankings help the Big 12. The top of the league is KU and that's it. There is no other team that's a consistent top 10 program. A lot of 15-40 teams which are comparable to second round and Sweet 16 teams. There's not much Elite 8 and Final 4 talent in the Big 12 and the tournament results back that up.
The middle of the pack is why the Big 12 is consistently rated so high, not the top of the league.
@HawkChamp What was the back up plan for Graham going ice cold? KU still gave up 74 points. Their inability to get any stops on defense is what hurt them way more than an off night in offense did.
We keep talking about how great a 3 point shooting group this is, but they're also showing the cliche "Live by the 3, for by the 3" true because they don't have anything else to fall back on.
I'd much rather have a group like the 2012 team that hung their hat on being a lockdown defensive team. That team was the worst offensive team Bill Self has had at KU and the worst offensive team that I can remember KU trotting out there and they still nearly won a title.
Those games were ugly to watch on TV and why they're not as fondly remembered, but that team was every bit the defensive juggernaut the 2008 team was.
The debate started as 2008 vs. this team, but I'd put money on 2012 KU beating this team.
@Kcmatt7 In close games, which most NCAA Tournament games are, especially deep in the tourney, I'd much rather have to score the 61 points Oregon needed to score to advance than the 75 KU needed to score.
Teams can win without great defenses, it's just much rarer and much more difficult to do and Self has yet to show the ability to win reach the Final Four with out an elite defense, sometimes even with one.
@DoubleDD Wright did play in 2006-07, but left that year and Love was a freshman in 2007-08. Those two roster changes have a huge impact because they both played the same position.
I think you severely undervalue how important defense is because just about every counterpoint you use is about offense. Unless the defense is significantly improved over the past 3 years, I don't think this team win a title. It's hard to be on for 6 games in a row on offense and a bad offensive game without the defense to make up for equals an early exit.
This team needs to give less than 65 ppg for me to believe they have a real shot at winning the title. They can make a deep run as we've seen the past two years, but without the defense to go with the offense, I don't see anything other than 2017 being added to the conference titles banner happening this year.
@Kcmatt7 Graham being better than Mason isn't saying much because neither were/are great defenders. I agree that Vick is the best perimeter defender KU has, but we also haven't seen him as an on ball defender much so that's still a question mark. Svi was decent at jumping the lanes, but he got burned much more frequently than he was successful and gave up far too many easy baskets doing that.
Margin of victory can be an indicator, but you almost always have to be a great defensive team to have a high margin of victory. If this team is giving up an average of 68 ppg, they're not winning a title.
@DoubleDD UCLA didn't have Kevin Love in 2007 and KU didn't have Julian Wright in 2008. 2 huge roster differences that make it not as comparable as you want it to be.
@DoubleDD You are currently proving my point for me by focusing soley on the offensive side of the ball. Villanova was 15th in ppg allowed in 2015-16 when they won the title. They held a KU team that averaged over 80 ppg and was 16th nationally in ppg to 59 points. That's not Villanova's offense outscoring KU, that's a great defense shutting down one of the best offensive teams in the country. Oregon was the same book, different chapter. They held 14th highest scoring team to 60 points. When a team gets held to more than 20 points below their season average, that's not an off night offensively, that's a a great defense shutting down a great offense.
DoubleDD said:
Have to disagree. So none of the 08 players ever played UCLA?
Not during the 2007-08 season.
@Kcmatt7 Go look at the scores, that team only gave up 70+ ten times all year. That team gave up 60.8 ppg in the NCAA tournament and 61.5 ppg for the entire season. Defense is why that team is better than this year's will be. The other Bill Self team that reached the title game allowed 61.7 ppg for the entirety of the season. Last year's team allowed 71.9 ppg for the season. The 2015-16 team gave up 67.6 ppg for the year.
The 2007-08 team had 21 games where they held their opponent to 60 points or less. The 2011-12 team had 18 games where they allowed 60 points or less. The 2016-17 team had 3 such games all season.
All of this debate about the teams has been heavily focused on the offensive side of the ball and I will absolutely give this year's team the edge on offense over either Self team to reach the title game. That's not the issue, the issue is what happens when the shots don't fall, can this team get the stops that the 2008 and 2012 teams got.
The Villanova and Oregon teams that beat KU in the E8 were both highly regarded defensive teams that proved the cliche that great defense stops great offense.
This team is going to have to make some serious improvements on defense in order to win a national title this year, or even reach the title game.
@DoubleDD UCLA was 2007, not 2008, KU didn't play UCLA in 2008 at any point. This year's team is more than likely the better team offensively, but there have been several teams that were better offensive team than the 2008 team during the Self era. The difference between the 2008 KU team and any other during the Self era is that team's ability to at defense and shut teams down. They shut Memphis down, the shut UNC down, they shut Steph Curry's Davidson down. They forced Curry to pass on that final possession.
This year's team is not going be much better than last year on defense, if they're even better. Graham and Svi have been here 3 years, they're not improving significantly at this point. My concerns with Azubuike on defense are not related to his 1 on 1 defense, but rather him picking up cheap fouls trying to bail out Graham, Svi, and Newman who are all below average defenders.
What's going to happen with this group when they run into great defenses like Oregon and Villanova that they haven't played against multiple times and have familiarity with like the Big 12 teams they face 2-3 times a year?
There's a reason why the cliche "offense wins games, defense wins championships" exists. It's because it's true. There are very few bad defensive teams that win championships in any sport. College basketball is no different.
That 2012 team was the worst offensive team Self has had at KU, but they still reached the title game because that was the 2nd best defensive team Self has ever had. With T-Rob and Witney guarding the rim, that team was probably the most aggressive defensive team Self has had because of those two giants in the paint.
If this team doesn't find a way to significantly improve their team defense over last season, they're not winning a national title this year.
@Kcmatt7 The 2008 Jayhawks would smoke this year's team because of defense.
2008 was the best defensive team I have ever seen. Chalmers, Collins, Robinson, and Rush were all above average to elite defenders at the college level and would wreck havoc on this team.
Last year's team was well below average on defense and the core of that team is still here including the two worst perimeter defenders in Svi and Graham. Toss in the downgrade on defense that Newman is to Mason and this year's team may actually be worse on defense than last year on the perimeter. A healthy Azubuike helps the post defense, but he has to stay healthy and out of foul trouble.
Vick is the only proven above average perimeter defender KU has right now. Garrett is an unknown until November.
This team is not better than the 2007-08 team. Even if they win a title this tear, that team will be better. The 2008 team was deeper and better at every position. RusRob wasn't an great offensive player at KU, but he was the best defensive guard Self has had to me. His ability to force opposing guards into mistakes that helped pad steal stars for Chalmers and Rush is what Set's him apart to me. DG is a good offensive player, but not at the level RR was on defense.
@jayballer54 Vick will be back. Vest case scenario this year is he's the 4th option whereas in 2018, he'd likely be the #1 option.
@BShark 2018 will be Moore, Vick, Cunliffe/Garrett in the back court. Vick is a 2, he doesn't have the mass to play the 3. Grimes would have to beat out Garrett and Cunliffe to start which would give KU a pretty small back court.
If KU lands Grimes, he backs up Moore and then slides into the line up in 2019 after Vick graduates and plays alongside Moore and Garrett.
@BShark I don't see Grimes starting at KU. His competition would be Charlie Moore at PG who wasn't a slouch and will have a year in the system. Lagerald Vick will be a senior starting at the 2 and the featured player for Self in 2018. Marcus Garrett will also be in the mix so Crimes would likely be fighting Garrett for the first guard off the bench role and then take over the 2 spot in 2019 after Vick graduates.
@Crimsonorblue22 Other than Minnesota and Dallas, I haven't heard his name connected to a team. His best bet at this point might be to go to Europe or China for a year and get some consistent playing time and then come back to the NBA. I really wouldn't be surprised if his NBA career is over at this point.
So glad I get to watch him again. I was bummed when the Rockets released him the first time around.
@chriz Rockets didn't trade him, they released him midseason and the Lakers claimed him off waivers.
Tournament committee can say whatever they want, but I'll believe it when they actually follow through. They've said multiple times that they were going to deemphasize RPI, but every March, that's still the most important criteria for at large teams and seeding teams at the top of the field.
@DoubleDD KU does play in a football first conference, but so do Duke, UK, and UNC. SEC and ACC are currently in a pissing contest about who the best football conference is.
When and if Self can ever figure out the Elite 8, Self has been great in the Final Four. He just needs to figure out how not to crap the bed in the Elite 8 otherwise KU likely has 1 or 2 more titles during that 2010-13 and 2016-17 tournament runs.
@justanotherfan Armstrong might not see all that many double teams because KU might legitimately have the best DLine in the Big 12. Daniel Wise is going to end up being 1st team Big 12 at the end of the year and Josh Ehambe at the other DE spot could end up an honorable mention as well.
This is KU's best DLine since 2007 and will take a ton of pressure off a young and inexperienced secondary and mask some of their deficiencies.
@mayjay I don't know, I just got back to Houston after driving all day from Lawrence and checked the results on my phone.
Deshaun Watson won the ESPY for male college athlete. Not very surprising though considering college football dwarfs college basketball in popularity.
Cool that Frank has a contract. I'm guessing for the rookie minimum since he's a second rounder. At least he'll still be cashing those checks instead of G(D)-League checks if he spends time in that league this year.
@Kcmatt7 I like the optimism, but I think you're a year ahead of where KU is at.
@HawkChamp Ellis did not take a lot of 3's and had a very slow and low shot.