@JayHawkFanToo Bragg is not a lock to be back. Newman will play at Kansas next season. He wasn't good enough to go to the NBA after his freshman year and he's done nothing to prove those doubts wrong. Scouts and GM's don't care about how a player looks in practice, they care about game film and there is no game film of Newman that shows he's fixed any of his problems.
Texas Hawk 10
9941 posts
@BShark Miami was bad this past season, but they were solid. They would ve good insurance pieces if they don't get better opportunities elsewhere.
@BeddieKU23 KU was in on him pretty hard, but I doubt he stays in the Big 12.
Didn't he start out at G-Town?
@mayjay Did I say Izzo for the Final Four?
Spurs are the only job Self would leave KU for and Pop will determine when Pop is done which will probably be when Manu and Parker are done. Bill Self is currently at his final college coaching job.
Only 2 reasons to fire Self are if there's a guarenteed better option out there that wants to come to KU today which is not the case. Or if Bill Self gets caught up in something that puts KU baksetball at risk like NCAA violations or something similar to Art Briles or. Larry Eustacy when he was partying with the Antlers while HC at ISU and a raging alcoholic.
@FarNrthJHwk Without being able to observe routines firsthand or have accounts out there from former or current players/assistant coaches in regards to differences on Self's preparation, scouting, demeanor, or other potential culprits makes it nearly impossible to anything other than speculate amd hypothesize.
@mayjay 6 out of 9 in a specific round of the NCAA tournament is a not a small sample size. Once you get that big of a sample size with the same result over an extended period of time, I don't believe that's a coincidence any longer. That's a pattern or a trend to me.
@FarNrthJHwk You're looking at this in a micro perspective and on a micro perspective, sure it was a bad night. Zoom out to the macro view though and you see bad nights like this happen like clockwork for Bill Self in the E8. Why do bad nights like this for Bill Self teams regularly happen in the exact same round (E8) for the exact same reason (lowest offensive scoring game of the season). That's what I'm trying to wrap my head around and come up with theories.
Something happening once or twice in that many games can be chalked up to bad nights and worth investing time in. That's not what's happening though. This is now the 6th time in 9 games overall and 5th in 7 games at KU where Self's team has had their worst offensive game in E8. That's beyond coincidence and is a pattern that's worth analyzing to see if there's something Self does differently for the E8 than any other game that makes his teams have their worst games of the season.
@BeddieKU23 I didn't say Svi would run point, I said he could handle the secondary spot such as breaking the press, being an outlet, and a lot of that stuff
If you want a substitute coach for the E8, my choice would Izzo who sports a nice shiny 7-2 record in E8 games.
@Fightsongwriter You wouldn't have had to shot fake to try and draw fouls on Bell. Plant Bragg in the high post in the middle of the zone and force Bell off the basline to help on the weakside. Even with all his struggles this year that was something Bragg was still pretty good at and tended to have his most success playing in the high post.
@FarNrthJHwk said:
@Texas-Hawk-10 Could be the players want to be the ones who get coach over that hump and out the pressure on themselves?
They get tight. They get "puckered" (which seems to be the word of choice around here). They try to hard to get coach the next Final 4.
Look at how they have played this past season. Once Number 13 was wrapped up it seemed the guys were a little more relaxed. You hear them and coach talk about how non of them want to be the team that snaps the streak of conference titles and they put that pressure on themselves.
Maybe the same can be said about the players wanting it so bad for coach in the Elite 8 that they put the pressure on themselves.
And once shots stop falling you tense up a little more to try to get the next one in and so on.
That still comes back to Bill Self though because part of his job is to make sure his players are ready to play and to make adjustments when something isn't working. So if the team is putting pressure on itself, that's still on Self to try and find a way to loosen them up.
@mayjay There's no evidence because we the public don't get to follow Self around on a daily basis from October when practice starts to the final game of the year. If we were able to, I'm sure something would stand out. So no, it's not a straw argument because there's enough data points to say that tgere is something going on that consistently makes a Bill Self coached team play their worst offensive game of the year in the E8. What we don't know is the variable that changes.
Playing better teams, sure, a below average shooting game sounds reasonable enough for that situation. But it still doesn't explain why that round is consistently KU's worst game of the year.
A hypothesis I would counter with is that Self in the past has admitted to reviewing game tape from KU's final game of the year. Bill Self has been in 18 NCAA tournaments, he's made the E8 half the time (9), but has only won in this round twice. Why would a coach not review game tape when it's consistently the same cause for losing? This is where I would start from in figuring out why Bill Self struggles so much in the E8.
The other place I would go is the November tournaments Self has participated in. KU hasn't won many when there's been a fellow top rated team in them. That's another possible correlation as well.
So while there's nothing we can do to get all the information needed to determine the cause since we can't follow Self around during practice and other basketball related activities, we have to look at what's available through quotes and observable pieces of information available.
@dylans That poor shooting night happens just about every time KU reaches the E8 though. Self and his staff need to figure out why this is so instead of just going "oh well, we'll get them next year."
@mayjay You can say it's a statistical outlier, but when it's the same issue that's popped up in 5 of Self's 7 E8 appearances, that's not an outier, that's a trend and the 2004 and 2012 E8 games become the outliers.
@jaybate-1.0 I didn't say I thought it was A, just that I don't think it's B because the facts don't support that narrative.
b.) at the Elite Eight Bill Self tends to start running into Nike teams with all the pieces he has, plus the OAD/5-star 1s and 5s that won’t come to KU?
At Kansas in the E8, Self has run into Georgia Tech (non Nike program), UCLA (was Nike, but switched to Adidas the next year so why would Nike feed a lame duck program?), Davidson (Nike school, but Nike isn't feeding Davidson), VCU (same deal as Davidson), UNC (KU won that game), Villanova (what OAD did they have?), and same with Oregon (same as Villanova).
In your modified premise, I don't disagree with the exception of Florida's back to back titles because that was not a OAD team. Duke, UNC, and UConn are the other multi time champs in the OAD era and I think UConn is the only one who's done it without OAD's.
@jaybate-1.0 I don't think it's B in this case. Oregon, no OAD's. Villanova had no OAD's, Nike funneling players to VCU, really? Or Davidson for that matter? UCLA was a lame duck Nike program in 2007 and didn't have any OAD's. Georgia Tech has never been a Nike program to my knowledge, and was in the pre OAD era.
UNC in 2012 us the only year that theory carries any merit and KU won that game.
@Eric-san KU shot 1/15 from 3 in the second half? Is that working to you? Yet KU kept chucking them up. I also didn't realize a 3 possession game with a few minutes left was the end of the game, silly me.
Bottom line, Bill Self's teams have a really bad habit of having their worst offensive game of the year in the Elite 8. The players and employer may change, but Bill Self has been the coach for all 9 of those appearances including last night. This game is on Self and whatever the hell is wrong with him in the Elite 8 that makes his teams play like crap in this round. 2000, 2007, 2008, 2011, 2016, and 2017. That's a trend and Self is the only constant in those years.
@chriz This isn't just a KU issue, this is a Bill Self issue going back to at least Tulsa. This is the 6th time a Bill Self team has had their worst offensive game of the season in the Elite 8 and KU is just 1-5 in those games. There is some kind of issue with Self in the Elite 8 that he has yet to figure out and at this point, I don't have the confidence in him to ever figure it out. People keep saying that he'll figure it out, but when? There's a pretty significant sample size out there now that says Bill Self won't figure out at this point and I'm at the point now where I'll have to see it to believe it.
Bill Self and Jay Wright are pretty much the same coach at this point. Both have a pair of Final Fours with miracle titles, but both also consistently underachieve in the NCAA tournament.
@Eric-san Where the hell did I say Self doesn't know how to beat a zone? There's a huge difference between not knowing and not doing. KU knows how to beat a zone, we saw it multiple times this season. Last night, they didn't do what they know how to do which has become a regular occurance for a Bill Self coached team this time of year.
@drgnslayr This is the 6th time in 9 E8 appearances for Self that his team has had their lowest scoring output for the entire season. Even the 2008 struggled in their E8 game scoring only 59 points which was their worst offensive game of that season.
This isn't a player issue, this is a Self issue that has followed him through multiple schools.
@KUSTEVE Bragg doesn't help on defense, but he's been a good passer all year and putting him in the middle of that zone and letting him pass probably would've opened up some of the lanes we saw open up when Jackson did that in the second half.
SUCK IT CAL!
Doesn't look like. Looks like Roy has a great shot at #3.
@BeddieKU23 Svi is a competent ball handler as well so I would imagine he would handle some of the secondary ball handling duties as well. Vick is who really needs to work on his handles next for next year so he can play and sub for the 1-3 spots next year.
@Eric-san The basic principles for beating a zone don't change regardless of what type of zone it is. Get the ball into the high post area to force defenders off the baseline and open up driving lines and back cuts for easy weakside layups. Bill Self said after the game that KU took way too many "marginal" shots which means KU's offense played like crap last night and Self made no obvious adjustments. The one stretch of success KU had when they cut the lead to 6 was what KU should've been doing for the final 30 minutes of the game after it was obvious the 3 ball was going to work last night. Josh planted himself in the high post, Bell had to come up to help and KU was able to successfully attack the rim and get to the FT line (Jackson picked 5 assists during that stretch). What KU did instead was start launching 3's again after that failed rebound opportunity when the game was 6 and KU never went back to attacking the zone. It really is on the head coach when something has some success and you quit doing that in favor of something else that had already proven to not work in that game.
@Eric-san You're right, that 20% from 3 is why KU lost. Why was KU taking 25 3's in the first place that were mostly contested when their shot clearly was working last night. And no, KU did not take 33 FG attempts from the paint. KU took 35 2 pointers last night and quite a few of those were mid range jumpers which are worst shot in all of basketball. KU did not make the adjustment to their 3 pointers not falling and that falls squarely on Bill Self not making that adjustment.
When you have multiple players (Mason, Graham, and Lucas) saying they couldn't figure out the defense, that's 100% on Self because it's not difficult to gameplan to beat a zone defense. KU saw multiple zones this year and played pretty well against those so why was Oregon's any different?
Here's a quote from Mason last night that should erase any doubt about this team playing tight.
“I think we started the game really tight. We didn't take good shots to where we should have just moved the ball and draw the ball downhill and created easy shots for each other.”
Frank Mason flat out said KU came out flat and didn't make the adjustments to Oregon's defense and to how the refs were calling the game.
Last night was a night where having Bragg on offense would've been a help to plant him in the middle of that zone and create those opportunities for KU on offense, especially after Jackson picked up his 2nd foul so soon into the game. KU lost because they didn't run basic zone offensive principles and Self never made the adjustment to those principles. They settled for contested 3's far too frequently instead of working the ball to the middle of the zone to open up the baseline and the weakside to eliminate Bell's shot blocking and put him in a position to pick up cheap fouls.
@BShark Can't cheer for Oregon under any circumstance as long as Altman and his classless a$$ is their coach. I hope former KU HC Roy Williams or former KU assistant John Calipari beats his a$$ by 50 next Saturday night.
There are 2 former KSU head coaches in the Final Four this year. Just let that sink in.
Frank Martin is at least someone most of us here respect as a coach even when he was at KSU, but it still sucks that there's two former KSU coaches in the Final Four this year.
In their 1999-2000 Elite 8 loss, the Golden Hurricane scored a season low 55 points. 2007, 55 points was a season low for KU in their Elite 8 loss to UCLA. The 59 points against Davidson was the season low for the title team. The 61 points against VCU in 2011 was that team's lowest point total of the season. The 59 points against Villanova was last season's lowest point output of the season. Last night was KU's lowest output by 7 points all year and only the 3rd time KU didn't hit 70 points.
In 6 of Self's 9 Elite 8 appearances, his team has produced their lowest single game point total for the season. That's not a coincidence, that's a trend and that's a bad trend that Self needs to figure out because clearly whatever approach he takes in the Elite 8 has been a massive failure throughout his career.
@BeddieKU23 Preston's eligibility issue isn't grade related, it's that amount of time he spent at API which used to be Prime Prep in Dallas. That place has never been accredited by the NCAA which is why Prime Prep shut down and was basically rebranded as API after Deion Sanders was no longer involved in the school. Basically, Preston is facing the same battle that Diallo faced and how many of those core classes was Preston able to make up this year at Oak Hill will determine his eligibility. I really wouldn't be surprised if Preston doesn't get to Campus until August after attending summer school at Oak Hill or somewhere that he can make up his API credits the NCAA won't count.
@Blown Graham is the PG next year, Newman the two, Svi at the 3, Vick and Garrett off the bench for the backcourt. The front court picture is a lot murkier. UA and Coleby should anchor the 5 spot, but the 4 spot is where there are all kinds of question marks. Is Bragg going to be back, will Preston play period? What will Lightfoot's development look like?
KU may very well be forced into another 4 guard line up next year with Svi and then Cunliffe (once he's eligible) manning the 4 along with Lightfoot.
@Eric-san You drive the ball and pass to the weak side, you attack from the basline. Basic zone offense principles which KU did not execute or try to execute. That's the whole purpose of getting the ball to the high post against a zone defense, to open up the baseline and driving lanes. Bill Self failed to make that basic adjustment last night. All Jackson did when he got the ball in the high pist was pass back out to the perimeter for mostly contested 3's.
@approxinfinity A losing record is one thing, playing what can generally be considered the worst game of the season just about every time is another. The only other game this year that rivals this one for poor play was the WV game in Morgantown. Villanova last year was the same story, worst performance of the year. VCU, Davidson, UCLA all KU's worst performances of those seasons as well. Tulsa losing to UNC in 2000 was that team's worst game of the year as well.
Bill Self has also been the higher ranked team in 6 of his 9 E8 games and is 1-5 in those games. Arizona (2001 at Iliinois), GT, and UNC in 2012 are the only times KU has been the lower seed amd Self is 1-2 in this games, but the Arizona and UNC (2012) games are Self's 2 best E8 performances.
@HawkChamp I'm not criticizing the initial gameplan entering the game because it was clear the gameplan was to shoot over the zone which based on KU's shooting this year, was a sound strategy. My biggest complaint was Self not adjusting when it became obvious that strategy wasn't working and switching to attacking the rim and getting Bell in foul trouble.
My other major issue last night was KU not pressing more. KU forced 13 turnovers and could've caused a lot more if they had pressed and created some easy opportunities. I was disappointed to see Self go back to being ultra rigid instead of being flexible like he had shown this year.
@wissox Ennis and I don't remember if it was Dorsey or Brooks were doing a go to sleep type motion while being interviewed postgame showing the same level of class as their coach. If our guys did that stuff after a game, the reaction would be on par with Greene's dunk.
@wissox I want UNC or Kentucky to beat them by 50 after the lack of class their coach and players showed. I would cheer for KState or Missouri over this Oregon team right now.
@HighEliteMajor I'm not ignoring the shot blocking abilities of Oregon, they're good at it. The refs however were making calls and why KU shot 10 more FT's than Oregon last night. Jackson was great at getting to the FT line last night in the middle of that zone, but Mason was the only trying to help him out. We weren't running back cuts for lobs, our guys weren't following basic zone offense principles last night. They were launching 3's at will even when they weren't falling. There was no reason based on how the refs were calling last night that KU shouldn't have shot at least 30 FT's. Oregon probably ends up with 12 or 13 blocks overall, but also a lot more fouls and trips to tge line as well.
Self was good at adapting all year until last night when he reverted back to form of being incredibly rigid and failing to make adjustments until it was too late. Last night was probably the most angry I've been over a loss since the UNI game because those two games are probably the most similar to me.
@BigBad Were you in the hudle to hear Self keep telling his guys to keep launching 3's when they clearly weren't falling all night?
How about I edit the point total comment to say Bill Self's teams. Would please you more sonce you're obviously the sheriff of the grammar police. Either that or you're just being ass because someone has a different opinion than you.
@BigBad Bullcrap it does. Mason was the only player smaller than the guy he was guarding, but that's the case almost every single game.
@Blown Dillon Brooks is in the Grayson Allen level of ass. Just as dirty as Allen too.
@BigBad Oregon does not have better talent than Kansas.
@Blown Oregon lost to Oklahoma in the Elite 8 last year. They were in the same boat as us and they were cocky and arrogant beyond belief last night.
I rewatched the game. The officiating sucked, missed at least 5 travels on Oregon, the Dillon Brooks play on Jackson should've been a flagrant because that was not a basketball play in any way shape or form. Why wasn't Self all over the refs for those missed calls? When does Self ever back away from getting on the refs? The Elite 8 is when, not once did Self appear to be working the refs over.
But what stood out the most after rewatching? Self reverted back to form and puckered up tighter than someone sucking a lemon. Lagerald Vick played reasonably well last night. Nowhere to be seen towards the end of the game over Graham who airballed a freaking finger roll last night. That's all anyone needs to know about how effective Graham was.
13 fouls were called on each team last night, but KU shot 10 more FT's. Why in the hell was Self not telling, Mason, Jackson, Graham, Vick, and Svi to drive the damn ball every possession? That's how KU could've won the game last night. Screw the blocks, that happens when you drive the ball and Oregon was good at it. Oregon played zone, why were we not screening, cutting, and setting up lobs? Same thing KU has done all year, saw it a couple of times last night. KU could've shot 40 FT's last night had they played aggressive. KU played timid, scared basketball last night. A hallmark of Self ball in the Elite 8.
Here are Bill Self's point totals in all 9 of his E8 games. 55, 81, 71, 55, 59, 61, 80, 59, 60. That 71 in Self's first year at KU was the OT loss to Georgia Tech and KU scored 66 in regulation that game. 2 times in 9 games has a Bill Self coached team even reached 70 points in regulation in the Elite 8. Self's teams have historically played like crap in the Elite 8 in his career. 2001 with Illinois and 2012 are the only 2 games KU has played well. Self was a lower seed both times. Self has choked when he's the higher seed all but one time and even then, KU still scored 59 points and was incredibly lucky to win that one.
Bill Self failed last night like he has done nearly every time he's been in the Elite 8. Somebody get that man some liquor, weed, or whatever it takes to loosen him up and mellow him out in the Elite 8.
@Blown Self reverted to form last night. Stopped subbing and quit making adjustments in the second half. Vick played reasonably well in the first half and actually scored. Why wasn't he playing over Graham in the 2nd half who couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat last night? Why wasn't he telling Mason, Jackson, amd Graham to drive the ball and get to FT line since the 3's weren't falling?
Self's butt was than the security at Ft. Knox last night just like it has been in every Elite 8 game.
@Eric-san So Izzo has the same number of titles as Self and 4 times the Final Four appearances which means four times better chances to win a title.
@Eric-san Yes, it matters. Would you rather have Self's or Izzo's resume?
@mayjay So let's look at Self's Elite 8 teams that lost at KU. 2004, KU was a 4 seed and lost a 3 seed Georgia Tech, not an issue. 2007, 1 seed KU lost to 2 seed UCLA, not much shame there because UCLA was a top 5 team. 2011, KU lost VCU, anybody who claims that isn't embarrassing is an idiot. 2016, 1 seed KU lost to 2 seed Nova and played like crap on offense. No reason KU should've lost that one. Last night, 1 seed KU lost to 3 seed Oregon because Self refused to make any and tell his guards to drive the damn ball. He chose to die by the 3 instead.
Self has flat out sucked in the Elite 8. 2004 is the only year I can think of that KU has reached 70 points in the Elite 8 under Self. Self butt puckers up so tight that you couldn't even fit a paper clip in there. He's been good in every other round, but for whatever reason, Self just sucks in the Elite 8.