@Kcmatt7 @HighEliteMajor The Olympics used to claim it would destroy everything to let the athletes collect salaries and fees. The endorsement model doesn't stop the schools and the NCAA from continuing to collect broadcast fees and their other revenue streams from licensing, etc. Both, incidentally, collect their millions as non-profits, as bizarre a legal fiction as exists.
mayjay
7180 posts
@JayHawkFanToo I don't see how a case (that involves a kid who went to a different school than the one who paid his dad) provides a defense in a case like this (where the money paid to the guardian was paid by a company with the specific intent to steer him where he actually went).
@JayHawkFanToo Do you think the enforcers would have targeted the guardian only? Interesting twist. But bottom line, "I didn't know my guardian took a second batch of money from addidas to pay back the first from someone else so I could go to addidas school KU" is not very convincing against a presumption of ineligibility.
I could be wrong, of course, but I see a lot more wishful thinking going on here today than compelling arguments.
@Crimsonorblue22 Ay, there's the rub.
I always wonder how the teammates feel when players get caught and vacating wins is a sanction, voiding all their hard work. I would be really po'ed if I were clean and some selfish SOB cost me my ability to point to my career with pride.
@BigBad Well, maybe they would have to stop letting the schools get paid for making kids wear (read: endorse) products they don't want to use. Are you okay that currently the school gets paid literally millions to endorse a product while the person whose name and image are publicicized with that product gets nothing he wouldn't get anyway?
@JayHawkFanToo Your 4th item simplifies to "addidas money was used to allow him to go to KU", doesn't it? That still means it was an inducement.
@Crimsonorblue22 I would prefer she go find a one-way ticket for a long bus ride in Dumbshitistan, or wherever he played his 2 games overseas.
dylans said:
Ain’t and Y’all make me cringe when coming out of young mouths.
It did for me until I was here awhile. I finally decided language, and I, should adapt to the desires of a populace rather than wage a fruitless fight based on archaic 19th Century prep school rules that do not provide an adequate songle word for addressing a group of people ("you" is better for individuals) or, for that matter, a gender neutral third-person singular pronoun ("they" is almost routine now).
chriz said:
Do they make you take down your banners? Do they make you stop printing back-2-back-2-back-2-back etc. t-shirts?
In researching the USC case (my post about vacating their loss to Texas in 2006) the article stated that the USC media guide was required to include the info about their 2004 championship being vacated. I don't know the context, but I would speculate that schools can mention their successes but must include any info about sanctions vacating those.
We could see, perhaps, if Villanova, Michigan, UMass, Memphis, or Louisville have banners with an asterisk.
T-shirts? Interesting problem: can they prevent the sanctioned schools from licensing copyrighted and trademarked logos and slogans (e.g., Rock Chalk, KU, University of Kansas, Jayhawks)?
@BigBad It is not their fault that the players face the OAD rule, but it is their rule that the players cannot get paid (by anyone other than the school, and not beyond the schollie and "cost of attendance" stipend).
But the member schools created it, and if they don't like it they can get rid of either the NCAA or its rules. I would make a strong guess that most schools, over 250 of whom are from non-power 5 conferences in Div 1, are happy with the restrictions facing the powers in recruiting and player benefits. And further, that they would be really unhappy if the NCAA were to not sanction ineligibility just because of a fear that the practice is widespread.
@BShark The Cam case might seem to be an outlier, but the money sought by his dad was from Miss State, and he never went there. Auburn had a good case that Cam did not participate in any discussions, and that his father was not authorized as his agent. We all suspected that it was unlikely Daddyo steered Cam to Auburn without a similar incentive, but there was no evidence.
And a big difference (true for Cliff, too): the NCAA investigation was not instigated by a criminal indictment backed by FBI subpoena power.
@approxinfinity 1. He based that on the fact that the fall indictments were all about addidas funneling money to players and/or families, and we are addidas' flagship program. Did you miss all the posts here that discussed the same fears?
And 2. If any participating players were ineligible, yes, there will be sanctions, and, yes, there will be vacating of victories and F4, and return of tourney money.
Can you recall any instances where a team did not face sanctions where so much money was involved involving a player participating in a number of the team's games, especially throughout the tournament?
Everyone thinking we won't face sanctions is forgetting that the inducements here were to go to KU, not just get an "in" with the family a la Cliff. I think it unfathomable that the NCAA could ever let that go, lest schools continually cry "We didn't know!" while reaping the benefits of ineligible player participation.
The best thing that could happen for KU would be for the defendants to plead guilty in a deal that leaves the documents sealed so the NCAA has nothing to go on.
@KUSTEVE Remember, unfortunately the "victim" status is based on people defrauding KU into believing the players retained eligibility. If we were victimized, by implication the players were not eligible, and that always leads to sanctions against a program. Even harsher sanctions get imposed if there is a finding that our not knowing was due to lack of adequate control or inquiry (but the cautious handling of Billy would suggest we were diligent when a red flag appeared).
@chriz Izzo getting to the F4 is his claim to fame (7). The overwhelming # of losses in the semifinal (5) doesn't seem to bother anyone (except MSU fans; but it delights UMich) the way Bill's record in the E8 has created a bad rep.
@approxinfinity I don't see anything wrong with that article. He covered exactly the same concern dozens of Board rats have expressed since last fall's indictments (would the addidas case roll to KU?), and our worries about the implications for KU if yesterday's indictment leads to NCAA sanctions (SDS ineligible? vacating F4 & victories? end to the Streak?). And, we may not like it, but nationally there has been suspicion about KU that, yes, the indictment appears to confirm if true.
He actually didn't get into the Billy side of things, which surprised me after reading your comment.
Exactly what do you find objectionable from a writer not writing for KU fans?
Now that you are back in the Windy City, you need to rally your troops to get your team some stadium noise!
So, Garrett is the leading returning 3-pt shooter, with 12 makes, followed by ML with 6, and Sam and Teahan with 2.
So cool to see a Teahan among our top perimeter shooters again!
@jayballer73 Now that I have been in the South for almost a dozen years, "y'all" comes out unbidden even from my Yankee lips numerous times. But I plead that living here is like immersion in a foreign language--you pick it up rapidly.
It is quite handy when servers are talking to a whole table at once. I literally heard, a while ago, "Hi, y'all! I'm Lisa, y'all's waitress. Can I get y'all something to drink now, and come back for y'all's order?" No awareness she said it. Believe it or not.
Well, if our latest F4 gets vacated, we can possibly use USC's clever ploy by no longer counting the loss to Villanova because of it being vacated. They used the Reggie Bush sanctions to claim that their 2006 bowl game loss to Texas was vacated, magically re-making them undefeated by the Longhorns!
https://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/09/usc-texas-bcs-rose-bowl-game-2006-vacated-loss-college-football ↗
So, see? Wright doesn't have Bill's number as much as we thought.
If Billy's mom took the money, it took some huge amount of chutzpah for her to bitch about the investigation like she did!
@chriz I think they actually do make you take down the banners under the "full compliance" with any sanctions standard. I.e., if you don't take it down you are not "accepting" the sanction of vacating the celebrated appearance.
@HighEliteMajor Threats on this board? Again, proving my point.
It would be fair to limit vacating victories to schools that know, but Camby accepted $28,000 and lots of other gifts from two agents, Howard Porter signed a pro contract mid-year, and Rose was found to have had someone else take his college boards. All three schools had their F4s vacated, and UMass had to pay back all the NCAA tourney money (I assume the others did, too).
Now, the first two seem to have occurred after the players had already been in school for a couple years, so maybe that was deemed under the school's supervision, but Rose was not in school yet at the time of the event and the NCAA had already cleared him for play.
The allegations involving KU players are scary to me because they involve inducements to attend KU. That seems a more reasonable basis to include the school that benefitted from those inducements in sanctions.
The last mock draft by Spts Illus has Devonte 37, Malik 56, and Svi 68.
@SlickRockJayhawk I like the "We're VICTIMS!" card.
@BeddieKU23 No one at UMass knew about Camby's money did they? Or Villanova, with Porter?
Isn't there is a major ineligibility problem, though, if the players received payments? At minimum, vacating the F4, tourney appearances in 2017 and 2018, and all our victories in both seasons?
@HighEliteMajor As usual, you proved my point about your attitudes. Thank you for that. I am done. Parse it however you wish.
@justanotherfan "The problem with Garrett is that the eye test suggests he’s a poor shooter."
I was hoping that perhaps an eye test would explain why some of those shots were so so bad. Like Charlie Sheen in Major League !
@jaybate-1.0 Actually, Grimes rhymes with rhymes.
@approxinfinity You put this Board together, so it is simple using the Game Of Thrones ethic: Your house, your rules!
@Gorilla Keeping the alleged perps' names under wraps for now is an excellent way to enhance a settlement. If I am the defense, I settle before discovery gets served, especially requests for admissions that could divulge those names.
@BeddieKU23 Anyone remember that last year around this time we thought we might have problems dividing time among all our bigs? Dwight, the Stache, Dok, Mitch, Billy......let's just hope the sensation of deja vu stops here!
@HighEliteMajor "@mayjay I care more about KU BB than an individual player. Do you even read what is typed? I DON"T CARE “ABOUT THE LEAGUE.” That’s what was typed. So, dishonestly change that into something that was not said, and making it into not caring about a player. You’re a pro at that."
I think it is well-known here that you are the pro at ignoring or diverting arguments that you cannot respond to, and repeatedly making ad hominem attacks on people who dare to defend their positions in the face of your attacks.
I did not ignore your continued braying that you don't care about the NBA. But this argument is about what these kids and the staff care about, not about your unrealistic desire for the sport to submit to your demands. The irrefutable fact is that the kids care about the league because that is their anticipated profession. The coaches care about how to help kids get to the league because that is how they prove to be successful in recruiting at the highest levels.
The kids care about their futures beyond the parameters of KU basketball. You say I dishonestly distorted your statement about caring more about KU bb than about individual kids--I think it is a fair inference to draw that not giving a hoot about their professional goals and financial security beyond the parameters of KU is not really caring about the kids as they really are rather than what they can do to keep you chest-thumping as a KU fan.
And you have been doing that for years. I recall specifically a time when you denigrated a discussion where several of us were praising a number of kids who won academic awards. And, finally, you proved it with all the attacks on Zach Peters you made when he left KU due to his concussion issues (accusing him and Self of dishonesty in his departure and later enrollment at Arizona). I gave you a number of chances to retract those accusations in subsequent years when I posted several articles discussing his retiring from college bb due to his concussions with UA continuing to honor his scholarship on an NCAA medical waiver. Nary a peep. So, yeah, I pretty much think you don't care about them beyond how they help you feel as a fan.
BShark said:
Yeah, he's majoring in basketball for a year. Self and co know the score here. The alternative is less talent. The sweet spot is recruiting NBA level players and having them stay 3 years like Wright and Roy.
It is no failure for coaches to not be prescient enough to figure out who is good enough to become an NBA talent but not good enough in his early college years to be mid-1st round draft worthy (the no-brainer cutoff, I think, for anyone not from a financially independent family).
Economists provide lots of stats from which they make lots of projections, but there was one concept I retained from my way too many Econ classes: an opportunity cost is the same as paying for something. When a guaranteed 1st rounder stays in school an additional year, he is literally paying millions of dollars to attend (minus the value of the scholarship). When a player (realistically) sees himself as a OAD, he is anticipating being at that level and, like Langford, often discusses how hard he wants to work for that goal. Scouts and NBA teams will reward players who maximize their talent in that year by drafting higher. Such things can only help their school (provided the coach is demanding, not enabling, as LK did with Trae).
@HighEliteMajor Basketball in college has changed, as have all sports, with the players' realization that they can leverage their ability into highly paid careers not dependent on their schools. It is, I think, both short-sighted and sad to not care about the players except for what they can do to make fans feel good. They are literally playing for their futures. I think it is part of what I appreciate about them to see how their ambitions work out in their lives.
@HighEliteMajor I would say his ambition to be developed by HCBS into a high caliber pro-worthy guard absolutely explains what he hopes to accomplish at KU.
But, wah wah, he isn't waving pom poms and genuflecting to KU tradition in his several sentences that you have decided define him as a possible KU player.
I hate it when anyone going to college tries to honestly express how he hopes it will help him in a career.
@Kcmatt7 The hiring in business scenario is not analagous to recruiting because in basketball a OAD has a presumed one year of high value (but possibly more) whereas the lesser-qualified-but-possibly-trainable guy still has 4 years at most of actual production (that might include another year of extra training). In business, you can have both short- and long-term careers in mind for employees. In college sports, even long-term is pretty short.
I would say get the best people you can get who fit your needs. In college ball, if you have another who fears being recruited over, let him go if he doesn't realize practicing against and playing with the star can only make him better.
In business, too many companies have traded away long-term success achievable through strategic employee development by seeking short-term advantage in hiring decisions.
@BShark That mock draft also has the first KU guy being Svi at #58. Has Devonte on the bubble. No Malik, but it was produced April 3, so probably not updated for declarers this week.
Sidenote: 2 week college attendee Mitchell Robinson at #18.
Lightfoot might come on very strong. Don't forget he took some guys to task last summer. As an upperclassman, with lots of familiarity with what Bill wants (even if he doesn't always do it correctly), and being a proven hustle guy who is a determinedly enthusiastic "team" guy, he could emerge as the player who provides important help and direction to both the new guys and the newly eligible.
@BShark I get mad at JUCO players for leaving after 2 years.
!0_1522895705248_Screenshot_2018-04-04-22-32-19-1-1.png ↗
Did anyone watch the team casts in the final? I didn't.
@Crimsonorblue22 On 3 networks. Not CBS, but because it was their contract and production they still got listed. TBS main feed, TNT Mich homers, TRU Nova homers.
@Crimsonorblue22 Tru had Villanova. The banner at the top was just for the 4 broadcasters for the whole tournament. The scores have the TBS logo.
@Crimsonorblue22 She also has an extra right hand in the second pic with an identical ring finger to her hand in the first pic!
Photoshop is funny because you can get caught up in little things and miss major goofs. Had a photo digital editing & repairing business for a few years after retiring. I took the photos at my sister-in-law's beach wedding and did lots of editing to get a vendor out of the background of the picture of their first kiss. Accidentally moved a lock of her hair so it looked like it was sprouting right out of her back. She thought I did it on purpose!
Crimsonorblue22 said:
Game wasn't on cbs or tnt.
It was on TNT for the "teamcast" for Michigan.
@Crimsonorblue22 Great catch! I just looked past that.
I take it back, @BShark: Assuming you didn't do it, we will call this "poor Photoshopping" about on the order of the 5 N Korean missile launch pic. If you did do it, time to fess up and take credit for the fun idea because it really is a sweet juxtaposition of her different emotions.
The funny thing about ECU rehiring the coach they fired is that they just replaced their AD with, yes, an AD they also had fired.
Dooley's contract is loaded with hundreds of thousands of extras that could double his $400K base. Incidentally, his record at ECU is the best of any coach they have had since moving to Div 1.
@nuleafjhawk I'm still mad at Norm Cook.