Stanford needed space for Jordan Brown too, I think that's a factor there.
BShark
33646 posts
@BeddieKU23 This was his second year there. Not playing much. He probably needs to go down a level.
Cal must want him back then. :joy:
@JayHawkFanToo In that case it's kind of more impressive, because Oubre couldn't compile stats against weak teams. Like what Vick did this year.
justanotherfan said:
Villanova was, for the better part of the season, the best team in the country. They lost the Big East this season even though they swept Xavier. Villanova lost four conference games, Xavier lost three, twice to Nova, and once to Providence. If Villanova doesn't drop that odd St. John's game when St. John's was briefly the hottest team in the country, they win their conference.
Not only did Nova beat Xavier twice, they beat them twice by double digits, winning by 16 in Cincinnati and by 24 in Philly. Villanova was pretty clearly the better team compared to Xavier, even though Xavier also had a great season.
I think the real point in Nova's favor as the best team in the country is this - of their 36 wins, just six did not come by double figures. Nova not only won 36 games, they won most in clearly dominant fashion. There's really no question to me that Villanova was the best team in the country, and I don't think putting them in a different region would have changed that.
They dominated all season. They dominated in March. They dominated the title game. Hats off to them.
Jaybate won't let these facts get in the way of his narrative.
jaybate 1.0 said:
justanotherfan said:
They dominated all season. They dominated in March. They dominated the title game. Hats off to them.
Um, they didn't win their mid major conference.
Interesting sense of dominance you have.
When Manning and KU did that sort of thing back in 1988, they were called Danny and the Miracles.
P.S.: I beat you to hats off to them, too, right? :-)
Rock Chalk!!
Not remotely comparable. 11 loss KU team vs a 4 loss Nova team that was great all year.
kjayhawks said:
I wouldn’t be surprised if Nova gave Jay a huge contract here within the next few months. He’s rated at just the 24th highest paid coach in the nation. Guys like Gregg Marshall (top 15 paid coach and maybe why he’ll never leave), Shaka Smart, Avery Johnson and Archie Miller all make millions more per year, none of which has a NC let alone 2.
They don't have the money. His current contract already stretches their budget super thin.
@justanotherfan While I was checking for something else I found something interesting. Svi actually shot 28% from three his FR year. Not saying Garrett turns into Svi from three but interesting.
Kcmatt7 said:
@JayHawkFanToo Oubre was never competing for time with Perry for PT really. I never remember a time where Ellis played the "3." Oubre should have been playing 30mpg easy. His advanced stats are off the charts compared to all of the other guards. Had we let him play through mistakes and grow, I think he probably goes top 5 in the draft and leaves on a similar note as JJ. He was our best defender and most efficient scoring guard. He almost lead the team in steals despite the fact he played much less than any Frank or Selden.
He should have gotten all of Svi's minutes that year. Svi was a 17 year old who could barely speak any English at that point. Yet he ate up 11 mpg.
I could not confidently say Oubre was handled correctly, or in the best way to maximize the team's potential by the end of the season.
Real talk right here.
I think Selden was playing nicked up that year which didn't help.
@JayHawkFanToo Oubre was better than Selden that year. It wasn't particularly close either.
@Ralster I agree it wasn't about want to with this group. I think it's just that Graham and Svi in particular were not capable of elite defense. Newman I think was a step above but still not great.
I have high hopes for Dotson and KJ and Dedric are tough dudes on D by all accounts. No reason Grimes can't be a great defender but Self will need to get through to him. Next year has the tools to be great on defense again, so hopefully it comes together.
@Ralster Solid post but I disagree re: athleticism. A big reason this KU team lacked on defense is because the guards couldn't keep anyone in front of them. Graham, Svi and Newman are very average athletically for TOP LEVEL college hoops or the NBA. Vick has the tools but is a floater.
Kcmatt7 said:
@BShark I don't think Self helps himself though. He trusts experienced players to a fault. Look how much of an impact De Sousa made when Self was forced to develop him.
Oubre, Cliff, Diallo and Bragg (not OAD, but probably could have been in the right circumstance I think) all got screwed coming here imo. Tons of talent that we just never unleashed.
Bill will forever be fitting square pegs into round holes. I'm not saying to go full Calipari and just hope your talent plays well enough to overcome poor strategy, but 3 out of those 4 should have been major impact players at the college level.
But then there are other guys that I think never were here mentally. Henry, Selby and Wiggs should never have played college ball. We weren't even Henry's or Selby's first choice. So that definitely doesn't help with buying in. Wiggs has literally never looked like he even likes playing basketball.
The only OAD that has seemed worth taking so far is JJ.
That's the reason I like the recruits we have this season. Dotson De Sousa and Grimes would have to have monster years to be OAD. They have something to play for instead of these higher ranked guys that are just trying to make it through a year.
Overall I would agree.
Cliff was coming along before the suspension issue.
Oubre and Diallo were just about Self's biggest failures at KU imo. Oubre played about as many minutes as Jamari, while Oubre was no worse than the third best player on that team. Self should have unleashed Oubre from the start, instead he stifled him and it hurt his development.
Grimes thinks he is OAD. He very well might be but I can see some struggles with him early. Dotson I think will be the man from day one. Very nice job by the staff getting a good class with good fits in an overall weak class.
Yeah you have to go when you are projected top 5. Then again Bridges stayed. Something in the water up there I guess.
Lulufulu said:
ECU? Where is that? Is that a lateral move from FGCU?
More money. Better conference (AAC) and better facilities.
Dooley's parents still live in the area so that will be nice for him as well.
BeddieKU23 said:
He was automatically gone before he stepped foot in College. These kids are funny
I thought it was cool. Clearly he loved it there. I didn't get that feeling from some of the KU oads.
Completely agree about Self and tight/big games. He doesn't use his bench nearly enough.
Jaren Jackson's statement is awesome.
Michigan State is an amazing place. And this has been an amazing year —from the time I hit the campus in June for summer workouts and summer school until now. I never imagined it would be like this. Never. Playing for Coach Izzo and the rest of the staff has been incredible. They’ve helped me develop so much, both on and off the court. After only one year, I know my memories are few but they will never be forgotten: football games, late night study group and early morning study hall at the Smith Center, the Breslin and the mighty Izzone, the PK80 title, the outright Big Ten Championship, and being recognized as Freshman of the Year and Defensive Player of the Year in the B1G. Please know that nothing was lost on me. Still, nothing is bigger than the bond I have with my teammates. These guys are my family. They will always be my brothers.
Spartans, this was not an automatic decision. And honestly, thank you for making it one of the toughest decisions I’ve ever had to think about. While playing in the NBA was always my dream and desire, I did not know the opportunity would present itself in quite this way. I’m ready to live my dreams and I cannot pass it up. Therefore, the time has come to declare for the 2018 NBA Draft.
Even though I will no longer play for MSU, I will ALWAYS be a Spartan! I will finish my studies and I will kiss the Spartan helmet on the Breslin court.
SpartanForLife
Go Green!
-Jaren
Big facts. :+1:
I am open to the possibility that Self has changed and Charlie won't make him absolutely lose his mind but if not...
Statmachine said:
Cunliffe, Moore, Vick, Lawson, Doke all have 3 years of College basketball exp. I expect them to gobble up a lot of minutes until the Freshmen get up to speed
You completely lost me at Cunliffe and to a lesser extent Moore. Moore and Self are going to butt heads like a couple rams, calling that now. I just do not see the fit. Unless Self has TRULY changed. Moore is not a PG just a small 2G. Cunliffe didn't play this year when there were 9 eligible scholarship players. He will be firmly behind Garrett and KJ. Also Vick if he is back but I expect Vick to be shown the door.
@Kcmatt7 The concerns with Langford were put to rest. He will be back for MSU next year.
Tevian Jones to Illinois. Not a flashy class for Underwood but I think a good one now overall.
Back to his old stomping grounds.
Furthermore Belein in his tenure at Michigan has produced multiple NBA players that were essentially unranked.
Self ignored the rankings with Agbaji and Garrett. Hopefully both pay off.
@jaybate-1.0 The services do focus heavily on AAU shoeco ball. That's why Garrett was a relative unknown and UNRANKED when he signed with Kansas. Of course by signing with Kansas that made them all go "oh crap" and get him in the top 60.
It's also how you see a kid like Barry Brown ends up outside the top 200. When he committed to KSU I watched what I could find of his HS tape. I wondered: how in the heck is this kid not in the top 100???! The kid can defend and shoot. Good player.
@Kcmatt7 thanks for the clarification I got confused for a moment. Playing them twice would have been weird.
They have already had two of their best players confirm they are leaving. And yes Jaren Jackson was one of their best players, Izzo didn't play him enough. If Ward goes too that will hurt.
Langford and Winston is a pretty good starting back court duo. I've also heard from the MSU grads in my family that there is a ton of excitement around the program for Xavier Tillman and that he could have a break out season next year. I would guess McQuaid starts for them at the wing...not exciting but the other options are FR or Kenny Goins.
@Statmachine BRING IT ON!!!!
BigBad said:
https://www.outkickthecoverage.com/comparing-2015-villanova-fan-tweets-jay-wright-2018/ ↗
Sounds about right. Thanks for posting this.
@BeddieKU23 Yeah I figure in this scenario Silvio goes pro but Silvio in his third year would be pretty good.
Completely agree on Hurt. I hope he doesn't waste his one year at Minnesota. :/
@drgnslayr To be fair the ft line is more than two feet away from the basket. ;)
@justanotherfan You're on :fire: lately. Well said.
I think the staff has shown they can get guys shots corrected. I have faith this will happen with Garrett. Garrett should be able to get it to a respectable level and with everything else he brings that's good enough.
DiVincenzo is a testament to Villanova's program. They find dudes and develop them. Look at his numbers as a FR before he got hurt. I have nothing but respect for their program.
Every player in the top 6 of their rotation is a great fit for everything they want out of their program. They have a plan. Find guys that are athletic, pesky defenders that can shoot.
Self hasn't been working with a full cupboard for a couple seasons now. Somewhat ironically his last two final fours have come when he has had limited resources. If only he could bottle that no pressure/looseness of those teams for some of his loaded teams.
@HighEliteMajor trigger warning. Self had depth with the 15-16 team but he absolutely blew it. He played Lucas and Traylor over 1100 minutes combined. Hunter Mickelson and Cheick not playing more baffled me. Even Bragg played more than Mickelson. I don't get it. Hunter was one of best options on that team from what I saw in limited minutes, including being an absolute monster on D. Too bad he didn't get more of a chance.
From The Athletic (I recommend subscribing btw)
- Kansas
Confirmed Departures: Devonte' Graham, Svi Mykhailiuk
Projected Departures: Malik Newman
Projected Returnees: Udoka Azubuike, Lagerald Vick, Marcus Garrett, Silvio De Sousa, Mitch Lightfoot, Sam Cunliffe
Incoming Transfers: Dedric Lawson (Memphis), K.J. Lawson (Memphis), Charlie Moore (Cal)
Incoming Recruits: Quentin Grimes (No. 11), Devon Dotson (No. 19), David McCormack (No. 34), Ochai Agbaji (No. 333)
Projected Open Scholarships: 0
Following a Final Four appearance in 2018, the Jayhawks should unquestionably have a more talented team in 2019. The reason for that comes with an elite recruiting class and terrific transfer group. Grimes has an argument to be the best guard in the 2018 recruiting class, a tremendously athletic scorer who can get into the paint at will. Dotson also should be able to immediately contribute at the point guard position along with Cal transfer Charlie Moore, who averaged 12.2 points and 3.5 assists as a freshman at Cal. The key, though, is the appearance of the Lawson brothers. Dedric Lawson has potential to be an All-American in 2019, moving to Kansas after averaging 19.2 points, 9.9 rebounds, 3.3 assists and 2.1 blocks at Memphis in 2017. His brother K.J. Lawson averaged 12.3 points, too. With Azubuike coming back and a high-level, energetic defender in David McCormack coming in to back him up.
- Kansas State
Confirmed Departures: None
Projected Departures: None
Projected Returnees: Barry Brown, Dean Wade, Xavier Sneed, Kamau Stokes, Cartier Diarra, Mawdo Sallah, Makol Mawien, Mike McGuirl, Levi Stockard, Amaad Wainright, Brian Patrick, Nigel Shadd, James Love III
Incoming Recruits: Shaun Williams (No. 150)
Projected Open Scholarships: -1
This might look like a bit of an overreaction to a top-40 team simply getting hot at the right time of the season and making a surprising run to the Elite Eight, but hear us out. The Wildcats literally lose absolutely nothing from their team, which was one of four Big 12 teams to finish with a winning league record in the deepest conference in America. The two key names here are Brown and Wade, two All-Big 12 talents who took a nice leap this season. They'll be the league's second- and third-leading returning scorers, with Brown providing intense defensive value and Wade great importance as a stretch-4. But even beyond them, Sneed and Stokes will be upperclassmen who can provide high-level support, Diarra and McGuirl still have upside as perimeter players, and they'll have some athletic size inside. This is probably Bruce Weber's best team since his first in Manhattan.
- West Virginia
Confirmed Departures: Jevon Carter, Daxter Miles Jr., D'Angelo Hunter (transfer)
Projected Departures: None
Projected Returnees: Sagaba Konate, Wesley Harris, Lamont West, Beetle Bolden, Esa Ahmad, Teddy Allen, Chase Harler, Maciej Bender, Logan Routt, Brandon Knapper
Incoming Recruits: Jordan McCabe (No. 104), Derek Culver (No. 107), Trey Doomes (No. 164), Andrew Gordon (JUCO)
Projected Open Scholarships: 0
Losing Carter hurts in a lot of different ways. The obvious answer comes on the defensive end, where he was among the best players nationally, thanks to his unbelievable hands. But even on offense, he was the best player for the Mountaineers the last two seasons. And Miles was right behind him as a creative threat. Still, I trust this team because Bob Huggins is coaching it. Huggins gets the absolute best out of a tough group of talent, and that's still what this team is after returning a ton of rotation players from this year's Sweet 16 group. Throw in a pretty solid recruiting class, the return of Knapper and a Big 12 that doesn't quite profile to be as strong next year, and the Mountaineers should still compete near the top of the league below Kansas.
@Kcmatt7 I bet he stays. But I'd love to see him go.
@Kcmatt7 I was told they can't be though because they didn't win their "midmajor conference".
BeddieKU23 said:
Green, Harvey, Wilson, Achiuwa..
But yeah in addition to Hurt and JRE this is a pretty great list. Hurt/JRE to replace Dedric and Doke... Harvey to slot in for Vick or Langford. Jacobs takes the spot likely vacated by Grimes. Mush Cunliffe for a wing...
@BeddieKU23 I want Vernon Carey lololol. Hopefully Self makes a strong impression at team USA U18.
2019 will be interesting. We should find out a lot more about top targets (beyond Hurt and JRE) after summer ball.
Parrish at least lists Agbaji and has Newman likely leaving.
https://frshoopz.com/cbb/rothstein-way-too-early-cbb-top-25-for-2018-19/ ↗
How is Rothstein employed?
@BeddieKU23 And his friendship with RJ Hampton.
ESPN article assume Vick is back and says Newman might return. Throw it out.
@KUSTEVE Then who do we blame for him not doing it more?
@BeddieKU23 Yeah I mentioned that when he committed. I think more than once. Basically, the staff took Tyler Davis instead of Cheick Diallo this time. You could say they learned their lesson.
It depends on DiVincenzo's goals. I'll admit I have no idea. Spellman should absolutely go pro.
KUSTEVE said:
@jaybate-1.0 Doke's back to the basket game was a sketchy deal. He had that little over the shoulder flip that would find its way into the basket about half the time. Other than that, it was all dunks. He did use an up and over move a few times, but he was not an adept back to the basket scorer. Instead of an entry pass, a drive to the hoop by one of guards with a small flip to Doke was the best utilization of Doke, imo. Going straight 3 ball wouldn't have worked because they were jamming the perimeter, and denying us 3 point looks. Tech did the same thing to us the first time we played them, and they scorched us. And Nova simply did the same thing- deny the three ball, collapse in the paint on post entry passes, and make us beat them driving the ball. But their defense was pretty stout, even when we drove the ball. We encountered an execution on both offense and defense that was elite, far better than any team we played all year.
It was a very smart gameplan too because this KU team wasn't very athletic by P5 standards. Garrett and Graham were the only drivers on this team and Graham wasn't particularly good at it.
Agree on Doke. Plus post-ups are just not good offense generally.
The staff is reworking Garrett's shot which is part of the struggle this year. It's something they are good at so I bet we see solid improvement.
People like to use the Releford comp for Garrett but his first season is ahead of Releford's first two seasons and considering Releford's 2nd season was his third year in the program it's not a stretch to say he could end up with a better career than Releford.
Keith Langford is actually a pretty good comp for Garrett. We'd take that right?
Garrett has shown an ability to get in the paint. Against big 12 competition even. My eyes tell me he was much better than anyone but Graham at it and certainly a lot more willing than Vick. He's a pretty good passer too. I can admit I look like I might be wrong about him playing PG. He could easily be the back-up PG next season.
@kjayhawks Ole batey is just trying to process Jay Wright now nationally surpassing Bill. Truth is he has always been a better xs and os guy.
Bill has been stubborn, but is a great recruiter and has shown flexibility lately.
BigBad said:
We've had MANY 1 seeds and "supposedly" easy paths that didn't work out.
So has Nova. In the last 5 years Nova has won the tournament twice and lost to 8/9 seeds 3 times. The tournament is just crazy.
@BeddieKU23 Usually the problems come when KU misses on top targets. Though Diallo was heavily recruited all year and then Self wouldn't even play him. A total waste.
I would be stunned if DiVincenzo left early. Villanova will be good next year again. Though assuming Bridges and Brunson leave I think Spellman's decision plays a huge part of if they are a title contender or something like a 4-5 seed.
BeddieKU23 said:
BShark said:
Shine and Sima leaving Okie St.
Oklahoma St returning 3 players who even played. lol. 5 open scholarships
I thought they were going to be interesting next year but now......